Jet Provost T3A XN607

[tomdocherty72]

Can anyone help with a full service history for JP T3A XN607. I know it served with 3FTS around 1970 and went into store at 27 MU in Jul 71. What was its history prior to 3FTS?

[Herod]

Hi Tom. It seems it went very quickly to 27 MU, and arrived at 3 FTS as a new airframe. I'm sure Vampire Mike will be along soon to confirm the details.

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks Herod.

[Herod]

Sorry Tom, I got the dates wrong there. I'll sort and repost.

[Herod]

This from the Gospel. 27 MU 18.7.61 3FTS 29.8.61 27 MU 6.8.69 5 MU 22.2.72 Non-effective 19.7.76 Struck off charge 28.5.76

So it seems it was with 3 FTS from 61 to 69. Your mention of 1970 threw me there. Hope this clarifies.

Peter. BTW, the Gospel is "From Jet Provost to Strikemaster"

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks Herod, just what I needed!

[chevvron]

3 FTS was at Leeming during this period, 27 MU was Shawbury and 5 MU was Aston Down or Kemble depending on source.
I found a picture of '607 on google; it was in the staic park at Farnborough in Sep 1968 although as it was close to the runway, it could have been flying/static. I only attended one day that week (wasn't posted there until 1974) and I don't recall it flying.
Is colours were red/white/grey although these colours supposedly didn't replace dayglo/silver until the early '70s and bore the number '4' on the fuselage and fin.

[Vampiredave]

Thank you Herod XN607 Psn 8/20 AwCn 14-7-61; 27MU Shawbury 18-7-61; 3FTS/4 Leeming 29-8-61; 27MU Shawbury 6-8-69; 5MU (Aston Down) (?) (Kemble) (?) 2-2-72; NES 19-1-76; SOC 28-5-76 Cat 5S; 168 ATC Sqn, Leeds as GI (nose section); tendered 3-88; North Yorkshire Aircraft Recovery Centre, Chop Gate, Great Ayton 23-07-88; Highland Aviation Museum, Inverness Airport, 23-06-04; Moravia, Kinloss (loan) 18-12-2017

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks Chevvron and Vampiredave.

[nipva]

5 MU was at Kemble and XN607went through the paint shop there at the end of August 1968 before being returned to Leeming on 6th September in its new 'raspberry ripple' paint scheme. I suspect that it was chosen for Farnborough in view of its recent makeover.

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks nipva,
I don't suppose you know what colour scheme it was in prior to the raspberry one?

[nipva]

Tom,
At the beginning of 1968 the powers that be decided that all Flying Training Command aircraft should be finished in what became known as the raspberry ripple scheme and the proramme started with JPs. XN607 was one of the early ones. The attached photo taken in 1967.is an example of the preceding scheme. Sorry not to have any shots taken from the side. I am sure though that others may have.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/766x521/s67_01y_53af39a89bd44a25e4ec774a280f6c84797438c6.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

Tom,
At the beginning of 1968 the powers that be decided that all Flying Training Command aircraft should be finished in what became known as the raspberry ripple scheme and the proramme started with JPs. XN607 was one of the early ones. The attached photo taken in 1967.is an example of the preceding scheme. Sorry not to have any shots taken from the side. I am sure though that others may have.

It's surprisingly hard to find side views of JP T.3/4s in the dayglo scheme on the net.

Here's a rather small one, but at least it gives an idea of how it was applied.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/235x147/jp_side_view_747b5a6c1dbdb2414f7ad90ef30817fa7a5713a2.jpg

Incidentally, I've never heard the term "Raspberry Ripple" applied to the later red/white Training Command scheme - isn't it more commonly used to describe the red/white/blue scheme that was used on various RAE/ETPS/A&AEE aircraft?

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x293/testing_colours_0fd03082a489a76bc058f0c07883dd2d2b9a15f2.jpg

[treadigraph]

Incidentally, I've never heard the term "Raspberry Ripple" applied to the later red/white Training Command scheme - isn't it more commonly used to describe the red/white/blue scheme that was used on various RAE/ETPS/A&AEE aircraft?


I've certainly only ever heard the RAE/etc scheme referred to as Raspberry Ripple. Mind you, the dayglo strips on JPs and so on were a bit before my time I'm afraid...

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks all, the photos are very useful.

[chevvron]

I've certainly only ever heard the RAE/etc scheme referred to as Raspberry Ripple. Mind you, the dayglo strips on JPs and so on were a bit before my time I'm afraid...
The picture shown is Cranwell aircraft and they had a slightly different pattern to accomodate the light blue stripe; other versions often had a solid area of dayglo on the nose rather than several sections of 'sticky backed plastic'
Much prized amongst ATC cadets that was; a rummage through the rubbish bins in the hangars at Bovingdon could reap huge rewards with 'offcuts' sometimes quite large.

[kenparry]

This is the paint scheme at Leeming in 1962 - not your specific airframe, but it was there at the time (I flew it) and the fleet were all painted the same.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1624x1103/05leemingapr62_384368c5cf5d9beab7c0719d18cc195975e27563.jpg
Leeming flight line May 1962

[DaveReidUK]

The picture shown is Cranwell aircraft and they had a different pattern to accomodate the light blue stripe; other versions often had a solid area of dayglo on the nose rather than several sections of 'sticky backed plastic'
Much prized amongst ATC cadets that was; a rummage through the rubbish bins in the hangars at Bovingdon could reap huge rewards with 'offcuts' sometimes quite large.

I don't think the schemes on the other FTS's JPs differed significantly from the RAFC ones, apart from the roundel on the latter being moved forward to accommodate the Cranwell band.

Prior to the introduction of the stick-on dayglo strips, JPs flew with dayglo paint covering more of the nose and tail in solid areas of colour.

Edit: as per Ken's photo above !

[chevvron]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x293/testing_colours_0fd03082a489a76bc058f0c07883dd2d2b9a15f2.jpg
Pity you didn't show the 'RAE Farnborough' specific book, my photo was on the cover; left hand seat of the 'raspberry ripple' Puma.:cool: .

[Vampiredave]

The 'Sticky-Back Plastic' or 'Scotchal Fluatape' was first trialled in 1961 following problems with the previous 'Fluolac' fluorescent paint on Flying Training Command aircraft, which tended to quickly peel from the airframe. I believe that RAF Cranwell experimented with several designs with the tape because of the position of the College's 'Ring of Confidence' on the rear fuselage until the definitive design was approved

BTW: Ken Parry: that is superb image of a 3 FTS JP, which must have been taken the year after the school was formed?

[kenparry]

Vampiredave: yes, 3 FTS reformed at Leeming around mid-1961, with the first course starting in about Sept. I was on No 2 Course, and we started in Dec '61.

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks very much KenParry. very useful.

[tomdocherty72]

I don't suppose you noted the aircraft number for XN607 KenParry? Was it on the nose too?

[kenparry]

td72: I logged serial numbers, not 3 FTS fleet numbers. The latter were, in my time there, always on the side of the engine bay as in the photo. So, with apologies, I don't have the detail you asked for.

[India Four Two]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1334x258/a35620b3_4048_4480_bc1a_f9614133d7a4_fa4af75da155f16b472b2dc e5bc83787edbdd2a7.jpeg

Slight thread drift but could someone tell me what was involved with the avionics upgrade?

[spekesoftly]

Slight thread drift but could someone tell me what was involved with the avionics upgrade?

As best that I recall, the JP3A was fitted with ILS and VOR/DME. There might have been a radio upgrade as well from just UHF in the JP3, to UHF/VHF in the JP3A, but I'm not certain.

[Vampiredave]

You have already been given the code letter for XN607 - see post 8

[Vampiredave]

Avionics upgrade for the Jet Provost fleet: A modification programme to install new radio and navigation equipment in the RAF's fleet of Jet Provost T Mk.3 and T Mk.5 aircraft to meet the latest air traffic control requirements was carried out by BAC Warton. Designated as the T Mk.3A, eighty-six Mk.3 aircraft were upgraded under Contract KA5(c)/466/CBA.5(c), introducing a greater measure of commonality between both aircraft. Specification 284D &P, issued on 7 December 1972, which comprised a revised instrument layout, included the replacement of the Eureka DME receiver, the single UHF radio and G4 compass with a VOR instrument landing system, civil DME, VHF radio, Sperry CL 6 Compass and a stand-by Ferranti Altitude Indicator . Ninety-three T Mk.5s were also upgraded to T Mk.5A

I would be interested to learn of anyone who was a member of the elusive third course - No.125 (Jet Provost) Course March - November 1957 - at No. 2 FTS, Hullavington, flying the Jet Provost T Mk.1? It did actually exist because it is mentioned in a contemporary Air Ministry document

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks kenparry.

[tomdocherty72]

Vampiredave, I assumed that it carried '4' in the Red/white/grey scheme but wanted to confirm it for the silver/dayglo scheme.

[chevvron]

You have already been given the code letter for XN607 - see post 8
Or you could try post #7:ok:

[kenparry]

India42:

The avionics upgrade was a result of a lot of student failures late in the course. With the original fit, instrument approaches were ground controlled (QGH to GCA or non-precision radar approach) and the bulk of the IF syllabus was towards the end of the course. Typically, a weakish student could get to about 120 hours on the 160-hour course and then not get through the IF phase. Expensive, and disappointing all round.

The ILS/VOR/DME fit was intended to increase the workload on the student pilot, and the IF was moved (mostly) to an earlier stage of the course. This all happened several years after my time as a JP QFI, but I understand it did work much as intended. One problem with the JP as a trainer was it was rather undemanding - an average result could be achieved with not too much effort or skill, but of course application and determination did produce better results.

[spekesoftly]

One surprise/disappointment was that the avionics upgrade didn't include fitting a transponder.

[Vampiredave]

The code letter was carried under the nose when it was in the original colour scheme - I don't know
if it was featured there after it was re-painted, however?

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks Vampiredave, makes sense now.

[ASRAAMTOO]

Avionics upgrade for the Jet Provost fleet: A modification programme to install new radio and navigation equipment in the RAF's fleet of Jet Provost T Mk.3 and T Mk.5 aircraft to meet the latest air traffic control requirements was carried out by BAC Warton. Designated as the T Mk.3A, eighty-six Mk.3 aircraft were upgraded under Contract KA5(c)/466/CBA.5(c), introducing a greater measure of commonality between both aircraft. Specification 284D &P, issued on 7 December 1972, which comprised a revised instrument layout, included the replacement of the Eureka DME receiver, the single UHF radio and G4 compass with a VOR instrument landing system, civil DME, VHF radio, Sperry CL 6 Compass and a stand-by Ferranti Altitude Indicator . Ninety-three T Mk.5s were also upgraded to T Mk.5A

I would be interested to learn of anyone who was a member of the elusive third course - No.125 (Jet Provost) Course March - November 1957 - at No. 2 FTS, Hullavington, flying the Jet Provost T Mk.1? It did actually exist because it is mentioned in a contemporary Air Ministry document

Not sure this is completely accurate. My recollection of the JP fleet of 3a and 5a aircraft at 1 FTS in the 70s and 80s was that only the 5a's had VHF R/T. The 3a's had a UHF box and a Standby UHF box that could Rx/Tx on 243 and 243.8.

Edit. I think the 3a's had an ARC 52 and the 5's had a PTR 175