Leonardo Lobbying for Puma Replacement to Secure Yeovil future

[SLXOwft]

Telegraph 15NOV2020Helicopter jobs fears as Leonardo lobbies for UK orderLeonardo highlights economic returns of buying from its Yeovil factory as it faces thinning order book

The long-term future of thousands of jobs building helicopters at Leonardo’s factory in Somerset hinges on the UK replacing its ageing fleet of medium helicopters, according to the defence company ...

Haven't seen this picked up elsewhere but it looks they are still pushing the AW149 as a replacement for the Puma fleet. Not sure if this a new story or a rehash of earlier ones. There is a perceived capability gap between the current Puma OSD of 2025 and any purchase resulting from the UK getting involved in the US FVL/FLRAA program(me). However, as I have said before my understanding was the UK Rotary Strategy included consolidating on fewer platforms. Following the AAC Apache D replacement decision does "The answer is Boeing what's the question?" now apply to RW. The RN won't be looking for a new platform until the mid 2030s so does this mean the end of UK OEM military RW is almost certain?

The new money isn't to fill the existing procurement budget shortfall but for Cyber and Space. So I don't see any funding for Puma replacement likely.

[Not_a_boffin]

They'd be better off figuring out how to supply 12-16 Merlin HM variants quickly and cost-effectively. Which might support export orders off the back of them. We need more Merlin - the case for Puma is less clear.

[Martin the Martian]

I suspect the answer will end up being 'more Chinooks'.

[Tashengurt]

Surely the Pumas can't need replacing ALREADY?

[NutLoose]

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-11-18/aw149-proves-worth-after-early-setbacks

If the AW149 is chosen by the MoD, production could be transferred to the legacy AgustaWestland factory in Yeovil, in southwest England, from the plant in Vergiate, Italy, and Leonardo hopes that a UK-buy could influence other possible buyers. “There are potential customers in the MENA region and in other areas. The truth is that if we can start to generate some interest from the UK customer they become a reference customer. A lot of countries follow what the UK does, which is why we see them as quite important at this time,” Whitney said.

But in the comments...


Ian Corrigible

November 18, 2019 - 8:29am

Didn't Leonardo already commit to building the AW149 in Yeovil back in 2006, when it appointed the site as the home of its military division in exchange for securing the Future Lynx order? Per the Rotorhub report on the announcement at the time:

Giuseppe Orsi, CEO of Agusta, said that an AgustaWestland military division would be based in UK and that the “design, development and manufacture of the company’s latest military helicopter, the AW149 would be located in Yeovil.”

[Jn14:6]

Surely the Pumas can't need replacing ALREADY?

Yeah! The oldest is only a mere 50 years old!

[Shackman]

Surely there must be a few refurbished Wessex around.

[SLXOwft]

They'd be better off figuring out how to supply 12-16 Merlin HM variants quickly and cost-effectively. Which might support export orders off the back of them. We need more Merlin - the case for Puma is less clear.

What happened to the 12 unconverted airframes? Pre-Covid were the RN still struggling with aircrew retention like five years ago?

[Not_a_boffin]

What happened to the 12 unconverted airframes? Pre-Covid were the RN still strugling with aircrew retention like five years ago?

Four deregistered and in various locations (inc 2 at Yeovil apparently), plus eight in xmas-tree state in a Boscombe Down hangar. More trouble to rebuild rather than fix the systemic issues with new builds..

[BTC8183]

[QUOTE=Jn14:6;10930240]Yeah! The oldest is only a mere 50 years old![/Q​​​​​​



The remaining fleet was upgraded to HC.2 standard, only within the last 10 years, at an exorbidant cost. Some sources suggest the OSD could 'slide' 10 extra years though!

[minigundiplomat]

I think Leonardo may have played the same card too many times. The few marginal Limp Dumb constituencies are probably less valuable after the collapse of the red wall.

[NutLoose]

This is what you get in supposed “mergers” the greater partner “home team” sooner or later disposes of their previous competition.

[NIREP reader]

I was the blade bay inspector at Middle Wallop. A team of 5 of us overhauled Lynx/Wildcat main & Tail blades (plus Gazelle) and we were churning out more blades than Yeovil site were/could. Out of the blue we got shut down and made redundant and “all work went to Yeovil”. One of the staff was an ex-Leonardos employee and kept in touch with his mates, who were still on the inside. They reported that there was a lot of sitting around by permies and the contractors picking up the workload.

I’m told it’s a strange place to work.

[NutLoose]

They reported that there was a lot of sitting around by permies and the contractors picking up the workload.

Seen that happen in a major UK aircraft company, at the end they only had one aircraft in, a full workforce to work on it but were banned from doing so and a hangar full of connies brought in and doing the check... Turned out some accountant had figured out it was cheaper to have contractors do the work than their own staff, but never took into account the company staff were still being paid to do nothing on top of his cheaper labour..

It folded shortly afterwards.

[212man]

[QUOTE=Jn14:6;10930240]Yeah! The oldest is only a mere 50 years old![/Q​​​​​​



The remaining fleet was upgraded to HC.2 standard, only within the last 10 years, at an exorbidant cost. Some sources suggest the OSD could 'slide' 10 extra years though!

They could probably have done a total swap for EC725s for less!

[unmanned_droid]

I’m told it’s a strange place to work.

I worked on SKIOS for 7 months doing calcs to reinforce Aussie Sea King cabins for crashworthy seats amongst other things, as a young contracting stressman.

It was quite different to Filton...

[heights good]

"The remaining fleet was upgraded to HC.2 standard, only within the last 10 years, at an exorbidant cost. Some sources suggest the OSD could 'slide' 10 extra years though!"

£400m for 20 aircraft which gave 10-14 yrs of extra service, whilst out-lifting the Merlin in Afghanistan was a bargain!

to re-engine the Merlin was around £800m...

[Door Slider]

£400m for 20 aircraft which gave 10-14 yrs of extra service, whilst out-lifting the Merlin in Afghanistan was a bargain! Ok

£260 million for 24 aircraft but an absolute bargain.


They could probably have done a total swap for EC725s for less!

“Probably” nope, would have been about 12 EC725s vice 24 Puma 2.

[chopper2004]

£260 million for 24 aircraft but an absolute bargain.




“Probably” nope, would have been about 12 EC725s vice 24 Puma 2.

ASt404 Ring a Bell with anyone ? When the Super Puma offered back in the early 80S?

cheers

[heights good]

£260 million for 24 aircraft but an absolute bargain.




“Probably” nope, would have been about 12 EC725s vice 24 Puma 2.

Pound and dollar faff 😀

[NutLoose]

£260 million for 24 aircraft but an absolute bargain.




“Probably” nope, would have been about 12 EC725s vice 24 Puma 2.

But that would have been 12 EC725s plus 24 unconverted Puma 1 still available to do whatever with.

[heights good]

But that would have been 12 EC725s plus 24 unconverted Puma 1 still available to do whatever with.

Not so, for a few reasons Puma 1 was not legally allowed to fly, hence the upgrade.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Do Leonardo export helicopter components from the Yeovil site - things like rotors, rotorheads, rotor folding systems, and so on? I am sure these things were produced for export back in the GKN Westland days.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I suspect the answer will end up being 'more Chinooks'.

For once, I think the answer will be 'fewer Chinooks'.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

They'd be better off figuring out how to supply 12-16 Merlin HM variants quickly and cost-effectively. Which might support export orders off the back of them. We need more Merlin - the case for Puma is less clear.
The case for a smaller simpler aircraft to replace Puma (and maybe the other ancient small twins dotted around the place) is fairly clear. This may or may not come to pass - but increasing the size of the Merlin fleet definitely won't!

[Not_a_boffin]

The case for a smaller simpler aircraft to replace Puma (and maybe the other ancient small twins dotted around the place) is fairly clear. This may or may not come to pass - but increasing the size of the Merlin fleet definitely won't!

A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds.....

[NutLoose]

Surely MOD thinking will involve looking at the size of the average army squad then issuing a spec minus one of the optimum seat numbers required.

[Evalu8ter]

‘A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds....’

Not really. If Royal really needs to go somewhere and do something, rather than simply posturing, conducting TV friendly beach assaults and attending Cocker-Ps, the first thing that will occur will be 4-6 Chinooks arriving on board. Yes they can’t fold, but they offer about 3-4 times the punch per deck spot of the Merlin and, crucially, are capable of carrying the heavy kit (vehicles/guns) that Merlin simply cannot.

The proposed NGR is a ‘medium’ helicopter replacement. Merlin is only a ‘medium’ in terms of performance and lift, it is a ‘heavy’ in terms of space (wider / taller than a Chinook, almost as long and arguably with a worse downwash) and in cost to both buy and operate. It makes complete sense for Puma/Merlin (CHF) to be replaced by a common airframe. The French have been even more extreme, planning to replace 400+ Gazelles, Fennecs, Alouettes, Pumas, Dauphins, Panthers and Cougars with just over 160 H160Ms. IMHO, this bit of industrial protectionism sinks the Euro-NGR initiative. I simply can’t see there being enough demand to build a new type at an affordable price. NH-90 has produced a curate’s egg of a machine; highly sophisticated, but also fragile and expensive - especially when compared directly to later models of UH-60. Does Europe beat its chest and throw Billions at another political compromise or buy FLRAA off the shelf (or licence build it)?

[Not_a_boffin]

Wrong sort of Merlin. Royal isn't the user I'm thinking of, nor is tactical lift. If 60 Chinook, 25 Merlin and 20 or so Puma isn't enough to support future tactical lift, then we may be doing something wrong (even with some frames retiring with age).

The Merlins with mission systems are the ones we need more of - and despite some expectations, UAV will not replace them any time soon.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds.....

It may do. We'll see!

[heights good]

Wrong sort of Merlin. Royal isn't the user I'm thinking of, nor is tactical lift. If 60 Chinook, 25 Merlin and 20 or so Puma isn't enough to support future tactical lift, then we may be doing something wrong (even with some frames retiring with age).

The Merlins with mission systems are the ones we need more of - and despite some expectations, UAV will not replace them any time soon.

Can you explain your rationale behind this please?

[NutLoose]

Go on, you know you want them, you really really want them,,,,

https://www.airandground.com/sikorsky-s-70b-2-seahawk-helicopters/

[Not_a_boffin]

Can you explain your rationale behind this please?

I assume you mean the rationale for more frames, rather than that UAV can't do the role.

When the CSG deploys it'll need somewhere between 8 and 12 Merlin HM2 spread across the group, 6-8 Pingers and 4 Baggers. That's from a forward fleet of 18-20 cabs which also have to provide training frames for 824NAS, support to Gannet, one for the TAPS and potentially another frigate. Once you factor in serviceability that's challenging.

[chopper2004]

‘A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds....’

Not really. If Royal really needs to go somewhere and do something, rather than simply posturing, conducting TV friendly beach assaults and attending Cocker-Ps, the first thing that will occur will be 4-6 Chinooks arriving on board. Yes they can’t fold, but they offer about 3-4 times the punch per deck spot of the Merlin and, crucially, are capable of carrying the heavy kit (vehicles/guns) that Merlin simply cannot.

The proposed NGR is a ‘medium’ helicopter replacement. Merlin is only a ‘medium’ in terms of performance and lift, it is a ‘heavy’ in terms of space (wider / taller than a Chinook, almost as long and arguably with a worse downwash) and in cost to both buy and operate. It makes complete sense for Puma/Merlin (CHF) to be replaced by a common airframe. The French have been even more extreme, planning to replace 400+ Gazelles, Fennecs, Alouettes, Pumas, Dauphins, Panthers and Cougars with just over 160 H160Ms. IMHO, this bit of industrial protectionism sinks the Euro-NGR initiative. I simply can’t see there being enough demand to build a new type at an affordable price. NH-90 has produced a curate’s egg of a machine; highly sophisticated, but also fragile and expensive - especially when compared directly to later models of UH-60. Does Europe beat its chest and throw Billions at another political compromise or buy FLRAA off the shelf (or licence build it)?

Puma isn’t on the list as one of the airframes replaced by H160M, as i spoke to couple of DGa personnel and one Armee de l‘Air pilot with the H160M mock up at Le Bourget last year. Think it was penned in but the Armee de l’Air will probably order more H225M CSAR to replace the Puma. However the Armee de l’Air H160M will be AAR capable, probably making it the smallest helo to be refuelled in flight like the HH-60G/HH-60W/MH-60K.

But I do agree with you 400 into 100 airframes is ambitious lest it offset costs for the technology. Then again look at how small the RAF is compared to 2 decades ago and 3 and 4...

cheers

[Evalu8ter]

Chopper, the Puma is being replaced in the short term by some leased H225s IIRC. I spoke to the head of the H160M project last week and he stated that the aircraft is seen as the Puma replacement for escorting the CSAR recovery birds, as well as other Air Force roles such as replacing the Fennecs in the slow mover AI task. As always, lots can change between now and ISD......

[NutLoose]

I thought the French were looking at Chinook as well after the use of the RAF ones in Africa and their participation in the Bastille Day parade?

https://www.overtdefense.com/2019/07/17/french-air-force-considering-purchase-of-ch-47-chinook-helicopters/

[spanners123]

Go on, you know you want them, you really really want them,,,,

https://www.airandground.com/sikorsky-s-70b-2-seahawk-helicopters/

Think you may have found the winner there! However, if this was to go ahead, would the Government insist that they are built in the UK, making them more expensive than needed. There does seem to be a bit of a track record of UK jobs before the right kit!

[Bengo]

Go on, you know you want them, you really really want them,,,,

https://www.airandground.com/sikorsky-s-70b-2-seahawk-helicopters/

With a mission system unique to the original owner, from a supplier with no real knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of the DA , or whatever they are called today, and where the support facility was on the far side of the world.
The basic air frame is probably fine, but otherwise, thank you, but no, thanks.

[Misformonkey]

‘A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds....’

Not really. If Royal really needs to go somewhere and do something, rather than simply posturing, conducting TV friendly beach assaults and attending Cocker-Ps, the first thing that will occur will be 4-6 Chinooks arriving on board. Yes they can’t fold, but they offer about 3-4 times the punch per deck spot of the Merlin and, crucially, are capable of carrying the heavy kit (vehicles/guns) that Merlin simply cannot.

The proposed NGR is a ‘medium’ helicopter replacement. Merlin is only a ‘medium’ in terms of performance and lift, it is a ‘heavy’ in terms of space (wider / taller than a Chinook, almost as long and arguably with a worse downwash) and in cost to both buy and operate. It makes complete sense for Puma/Merlin (CHF) to be replaced by a common airframe. The French have been even more extreme, planning to replace 400+ Gazelles, Fennecs, Alouettes, Pumas, Dauphins, Panthers and Cougars with just over 160 H160Ms. IMHO, this bit of industrial protectionism sinks the Euro-NGR initiative. I simply can’t see there being enough demand to build a new type at an affordable price. NH-90 has produced a curate’s egg of a machine; highly sophisticated, but also fragile and expensive - especially when compared directly to later models of UH-60. Does Europe beat its chest and throw Billions at another political compromise or buy FLRAA off the shelf (or licence build it)?
I really do think that when you see terms like levelling up being expected in business case that the solution will be a UK product, yo just need to work out what it looks like.

We've sold our soul to the FMS system and I think we may regret that in years to come. We're dependent on the U.S and importantly the leader of it and his/her goodwill.

If Puma is replaced it will be an LH product. A basic Merlin keeps the most of UK money inside the UK. 189 is the traditional FAL and keeps Italy happy. I want a solution where UK PLC benefits and not the U.S or Italy.

[NutLoose]

If Puma is replaced it will be an LH product. A basic Merlin keeps the most of UK money inside the UK. 189 is the traditional FAL and keeps Italy happy. I want a solution where UK PLC benefits and not the U.S or Italy.

OMG nooo, don’t resurrect the WG.30 again ;)

[SLXOwft]

After reading the Flight Global article which triggered the Chinook/RAF Café with exhibits thread I noticed an article regarding Puma replacement

UK keeps options open for Puma replacement, but deadline will be too early for FVL (https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-keeps-options-open-for-puma-replacement-but-deadline-will-be-too-early-for-fvl/142048.article)

Apologies for the length of the following quotes - I don't have time to precis acurately.

The UK is unlikely to replace its fleet of Airbus Helicopters Puma HC2s with a high-speed platform from the USA’s Future Vertical Lift (FVL) programme due to timing issues, but nonetheless continues to assess that effort – and a separate NATO-led initiative – against its longer-term requirements.
While the UK believes that “there is a requirement for a medium aircraft in the future”, the 23 Pumas operated by the Royal Air Force are due for retirement by 2025, says Colonel Paul Morris, assistant head of plans, capability air manouevre for the British Army.But that timeframe is likely to be too tight to dovetail with the US Army’s FVL effort, which foresees service entry of a new rotorcraft under its Future Long Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA) programme – either the Bell V-280 Valor or Sikorsky-Boeing SB-1 Defiant – around 2030.
“We don’t believe that FLRAA will come on line rapidly enough to replace the capability currently delivered by the Puma,” Morris told the Royal Aeronautical Society’s Next-Generation Rotorcraft Conference on 20 January.
While the exact timeline has still to be decided, “suffice to say that they just don’t match in terms of the first entry into service on the other side of the pond and our own requirement to replace medium”.
While the Puma’s out-of-service date could be extended, says Morris, obsolescence issues will become more of a problem, despite it remaining a “capable aircraft”.But that timeframe is likely to be too tight to dovetail with the US Army’s FVL effort, which foresees service entry of a new rotorcraft under its Future Long Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA) programme – either the Bell V-280 Valor or Sikorsky-Boeing SB-1 Defiant – around 2030.
“We don’t believe that FLRAA will come on line rapidly enough to replace the capability currently delivered by the Puma,” Morris told the Royal Aeronautical Society’s Next-Generation Rotorcraft Conference on 20 January.
While the exact timeline has still to be decided, “suffice to say that they just don’t match in terms of the first entry into service on the other side of the pond and our own requirement to replace medium”.
While the Puma’s out-of-service date could be extended, says Morris, obsolescence issues will become more of a problem, despite it remaining a “capable aircraft”.


Lieutenant Commander Andrew White, ... holding a post in the UK’s capability air manoeuvre body, told the conference that any interim Puma replacement would be expected to have a service life of around 20 years.
On that basis “the UK would be looking again around 2045”. If the service life of the Merlin fleet was extended, that would be retired around 2040.
“From the mid-2030s to 2040 there is definitely a UK requirement on two fronts,” he says.

[NutLoose]

Airbus are in the fight too..
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/airbus-pitches-h175-as-potential-puma-replacement-for-uk
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/airbus-helicopters-touts-h175-as-puma-replacement-for-the-uk/142073.article

Airbus Helicopters could offer the H175 super-medium-twin to the UK as a replacement for the Royal Air Force’s fleet of Puma utility helicopters in 2025 – despite the fact that no military variant of the 8t rotorcraft exists.

In fact, Airbus Helicopters has consistently said that it was prevented from developing a military version due its partnership agreement with China on the programme.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/4/9/76349_h175-sar-gfs-pair_74001.jpg

Source: Airbus Helicopters

Hong Kong’s Government Flying Service operates H175 for SAR missions

However, Jerome Combe, head of product policy and strategy at the airframer, told the Royal Aeronautical Society’s Next-Generation Rotorcraft Conference on 21 January that it could offer several alternatives as a Puma replacement, including the H175.

The Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6-powered twin could “really offer a huge opportunity for the UK”, he says, including in-country final assembly and increased national content.

UK-built examples could also be offered for export, he says.

China’s Avicopter has been a partner on the programme since its launch in 2005. It supplies components to the H175, including fuselage parts, but also builds its own version, the AC352, which is powered by Safran Ardiden 3C engines.

Airbus Helicopters declines to comment on how it would sidestep limitations relating to a military variant. However, one solution could be to substitute Chinese content on the helicopter.

An Airbus Helicopters spokesman says: “Airbus Helicopters looks forward to addressing the UK’s future medium helicopter requirements as they take shape and we are confident that we can offer attractive solutions which will both fully meet the armed forces’ operational needs and contribute to a strong national prosperity agenda.

“Airbus has an established, substantial and world-class design and manufacturing footprint in the UK and we have never been averse to the implementation of a helicopter final assembly line where it makes commercial sense for the worldwide market.”

As part of its unsuccessful bid to sell search and rescue-roled H175s to competitors for the UK’s SAR privatisation last decade, Airbus Helicopters offered a degree of industrial participation in the programme.

Under that initiative it promised to turn its Aberdeen, Scotland site into a SAR “centre of excellence”, providing training and modification work for all SAR-configured H175s.

https://d3lcr32v2pp4l1.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/3/4/7/76347_pumafiveshipccrowncopyright_296658.jpg

Source: Crown Copyright

Puma fleet was raised to HC2 standard in 2010s

At present the Puma has an out of service date of 2025, but Airbus Helicopters says it could support the type up to 2035, potentially aligning its departure with the arrival of a next-generation platform.

Although initially delivered in the 1970s, the UK’s current 23-strong fleet were modernised in the mid-2010s, raising them to the HC2 standard, an upgrade that included a new digital cockpit and uprated engines.

“The Puma 2 is a proven high-performance and value-for-money capability, which entered service in 2015 hosting the latest digital avionics and mission systems.

“Airbus is committed to its support and continued service beyond its current out-of-service date out to 2035.”

No programme of record for a Puma replacement currently exists, with a decision to be influenced by the UK Ministry of Defence’s ongoing Integrated Review.

However, should a requirement emerge, Leonardo Helicopters will offer the 8.6t AW149, which would also be built in the UK.

Leonardo has a more pressing need to secure work for its Yeovil final assembly line in Somerset: having assembled the final AW159 Wildcat in 2019 it is currently only building AW101s.

[ORAC]

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-could-buy-up-to-44-helicopters-under-1-billion-nmh-acquisition/146362.article

UK could buy up to 44 helicopters under £1 billion NMH acquisition

UK defence officials are prepared to spend up to £1 billion ($1.3 billion) on as many as 44 aircraft under the country’s nascent New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme, according to newly published tender documents.

Posted by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 11 November, the contract opportunity notice is the first step in the effort to replace the Royal Air Force’s 23-strong fleet of Puma HC2 helicopters, plus three other types operated by the British Army.

Potential suppliers have been invited to a “market interest day” on 25 November to “further inform the NMH requirement and procurement strategy”, says the document.

“As part of market industry day and to better understand the market, the [MoD] intends to issue requests for information with invited suppliers on key elements of the NMH programme and for industry to respond to in writing,” it says.

According to the draft scope of the requirement, between 36 and 44 helicopters could be acquired, alongside simulators, training and support services; the estimated total value of the contract is £1 billion.

The MoD hopes to publish the contract by 1 July 2022, it adds.

[rattman]

I find it quite interesting that australia is leasing 2 AW149's for at least 2 and maybe 3 years and attaching them to one of the MRH-90 squadrons so that the pilots can fly them to keep their flight hours up. Wonder if this be a bit of a trend, the spanish supply ship Cantabria was seconded to the RAN for 8 months. Apparently RAN was so impressed by it that they then ordered 2 of them (Supply and Success) instead of keeping the 2 old ones

[Not_a_boffin]

Apparently RAN was so impressed by it that they then ordered 2 of them (Supply and Success) instead of keeping the 2 old ones

They didn't have the option of keeping the two old ones. They were nigh-on 35 years old and knackered. Not to mention being non-compliant with current regulations.

What Navantia / Spanish government did do was to give them an incentive.

[rattman]

They didn't have the option of keeping the two old ones. They were nigh-on 35 years old and knackered. Not to mention being non-compliant with current regulations.

What Navantia / Spanish government did do was to give them an incentive.

The reason why we needed the spanish one was because we were reffiting the old ones, they were refitted in singapore to bring them up to the new regulations. Later naventia and Hyundai were given the opportunity to tender for the replacements as part of a restricted tender competition.

But this is just bringing the a thread off topic. Wonder if this is going to give the army an option to test drive the a AW149. You dont buy a car without a test drive why would you buy a helicopter with out one

[Davef68]

the Royal Air Force’s 23-strong fleet of Puma HC2 helicopters, plus three other types operated by the British Army

.Bell 212, Gazelle and Dauphin? Seems to be a disparate size mix to be replaced by a medium helicopter?.

[Bolso]

.Bell 212, Gazelle and Dauphin? Seems to be a disparate size mix to be replaced by a medium helicopter?.

I believe it's the Bell 412 (still used in Cyprus) rather than the Gazelle in this context. There was a post in another Thread stating that apparently Draken Europe are winding that operation down along with all the others which ties in with these plans, as they maintain all of these 3 for the MOD.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

.Bell 212, Gazelle and Dauphin? Seems to be a disparate size mix to be replaced by a medium helicopter?.
I'd say the quote is likely mixing army and RAF, something the press has historically facepalmed with. 212 (AAC), 412 (RAF) Dauphin (aac)

[SLXOwft]

I'd say the quote is likely mixing army and RAF, something the press has historically facepalmed with. 212 (AAC), 412 (RAF) Dauphin (aac)

ukdefencejournal's article following the review seems to have stopped many journos wading through the tosh that is Defence in a Competitive Age. As we know that states:

7.39. The Army is retiring its oldest CH-47 Chinook helicopters and investing, alongside the US, in newer variants of this operationally proven aircraft, enhancing capability, efficiency and interoperability. Our AH-64 Apache Attack Helicopters will be upgraded to a state-of-the-art capability by 2025. Investment in a new medium lift helicopter in the mid-2020s will enable a consolidation of the Army’s disparate fleet of medium lift helicopters from four platform types to one; including the replacement of Puma. The Army will also retain and upgrade Watchkeeper.
Which may also account for the 'Army helicopters'

The Army's public message is:

The New Medium Helicopter Programme will see four of the medium-sized helicopters currently in service across Defence replaced by one new helicopter. This will include the Bell 212 that is used by the Army Air Corps in the jungle areas of Brunei.

The obvious others, besides the Pumas, are the 412s in Cyprus and the Dauphins, the only question about the latter being will the new medium helicopter provide what ever it is currently justifies 658 having its own type to support SF ops.

As the Bell 212s and 412s are COMR presumably still owned by FB Heliservices (formerly part of Cobham) / (Sold to Draken Bidco) /(or whoever else they may next belong to) does that mean a change to the way 84 and 667 squadrons' cabs are provided? If Draken are winding down their related operations, as Bolso says, then their replacement becomes more urgent. UPDATE:I've just read the Rotorheads post Bolso refers to https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=11134089 (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=11134089) "Draken have just informed staff that they are pulling the pin on all their helicopter contracts".

Air Cdre Al Smith of JHC disclosed at Defence IQ International Military Helicopter in 2018 that plans for a replacement of the chicken legs were in place, based on an OSD of 2025 which might have to be brought forward due to spares isues - whether the review squashed that is another question. Fight Global reported:
Employed by the Army Air Corps in the reconnaissance and battlefield liaison role, the Gazelle also relies on a pool of what Smith describes as “really highly-trained” flightcrew, who are used to operating as a single pilot in “quite challenging weather conditions”.
“How much longer do we want to rely [on those crews]...and at what point do we want technology to reduce that workload?” asks Smith.
A replacement programme is unlikely to be a like-for-like acquisition: thanks to advances in technology, Smith believes that a similar or better capability could be provided with a smaller number of platforms.
“Looking at the number of Gazelles, we think we can deliver a customer product with significantly fewer than we have today,” he says.

My view, for what its worth, is a few may continue whistling for some time (the remainder being RTP for spares) while being replaced by a UAS in roles for which it makes sense to do so. Davef68 may recall recommending the H135 as a replacement at the time.

[AnglianAV8R]

But that would have been 12 EC725s plus 24 unconverted Puma 1 still available to do whatever with.

Oh great, another fleet.

[NutLoose]

Sikorsky are pitching the Polish built Blackhawks to replace Puma.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/sikorsky-pitches-polish-built-black-hawks-as-uk-puma-replacement/146812.article


The US airframer, part of Lockheed Martin, proposed the S-70M in its response to a request for information from the UK Ministry of Defence submitted on 9 December.

plus you can hang your motorbike on it,

https://electrek.co/2021/11/17/special-forces-testing-black-hawk-helicopter-with-stub-wing-mounted-electric-motorcycles/

[Davef68]

I remember reading over the years that the Blackhawk was considered to have too small a capacity for UK requirements. Has the requirement been 'adjusted'?

[NutLoose]

Well we have reduced the size of the army ;)

[Bing]

I remember reading over the years that the Blackhawk was considered to have too small a capacity for UK requirements. Has the requirement been 'adjusted'?

Maybe someone realised the UK isn't that different to the ~30 countries using Blackhawk variants and having niche requirements isn't cheap?

[TBM-Legend]

I can do the UK a great deal on 47 one owner barely run-in NH90's complete with spares and a flt sim or two. Available starting in 2022. Great for UK and Euro conditions. Bargain price....will accept bottle caps as down payment....

[Davef68]

I can do the UK a great deal on 47 one owner barely run-in NH90's complete with spares and a flt sim or two. Available starting in 2022. Great for UK and Euro conditions. Bargain price....will accept bottle caps as down payment....
Swop you for an loan of an SSN?

[rattman]

Swop you for an loan of an SSN?
I would think a straight trade for your C-130J's the MOD is dumping is probably pretty reasonable

[The Helpful Stacker]

I remember reading over the years that the Blackhawk was considered to have too small a capacity for UK requirements. Has the requirement been 'adjusted'?

Maybe you read it wrong.

Was it not "too small a capacity for Westlands/AN Other Brit manufacturer to jump on the gravy train and double the cost over an OTS purchase by squeezing in unnecessary British "improvements"?

[Marly Lite]

Puma has had it’s OSD reiterated as 2025, will cover Brunei and Cyprus commitments. Arguments over replacement will be delayed/roll over. Nowt gonna happen for a couple of years.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Gareth Jennings on Twitter: "Notes early retirement for 212 in September 2022 and 412 in April 2023 (no official word on Dauphin). Indicates Puma will remain through to current planned out of service date of 2025, despite earlier indications there may be a capability gap." / Twitter

[rattman]

Polish/UK built S-70's are now being offered

https://rmx.news/poland/polish-made-black-hawk-helicopters-offered-to-uk/

[Baldeep Inminj]

Gareth Jennings on Twitter: "Notes early retirement for 212 in September 2022 and 412 in April 2023 (no official word on Dauphin). Indicates Puma will remain through to current planned out of service date of 2025, despite earlier indications there may be a capability gap." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1471908519297310721)

Interesting times ahead for 84 Sqn in Akrotiri. Does anyone know if they will convert to a Puma unit, or will the Puma Force roulement through Cyprus? If that happens, then I could foresee the end of 84, although the SAR and overwater skills they have are not easily learned.