Extinction Rebellion desecrate cenotaph.

[kghjfg]

On another site I’ve seen a video of someone dressed as a soldier walking across the wreaths at the cenotaph this morning to place a “climate change” wreath above the others at the cenotaph.

He actually stepped on the wreaths at the Cenotaph.

I’m saddened that XR will not denounce it, I’m saddened that the chap looks in his 70’s and he thinks this is an ok thing to do.

Hoping he’s a Walt.

[NutLoose]

https://metro.co.uk/2020/11/11/extinction-rebellion-hangs-climate-poppy-wreath-on-cenotaph-on-remembrance-day-13575181/

Veteran Donald Bell hangs the wreath on the Cenotaph :ugh:


https://videos.metro.co.uk/video/met/2020/11/11/442665022212816987/640x360_MP4_442665022212816987.mp4

[treadigraph]

This...

https://youtu.be/ttIjEIGUEJk

[ATSA1]

XR certainly know how to shoot themselves in the foot!

[Uplinker]

The lack of respect is, frankly, breathtaking.

Why does this deluded idiot think it is OK to hijack remembrance day and tread on the wreaths laid in memory of the very young people this country sent to war and who were killed doing their duty to defend this country - absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with climate change.

NOTHING deserves this disrespect. People like this make me sick.

[kghjfg]

I didn’t know he was a veteran.

surprisingly he says that the fact he is a veteran gives him the right to step on the wreaths.

I haven’t served, so it’s hard for me to understand some things, but I don’t see how serving gives you the right to step on the memory of your fallen comrades.

Does it?

[Fonsini]

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

[esscee]

They only want the press exposure and try anything "new/different" to get it. Maybe people should find something that XR find dear to them and then "crap" on that. Unfortunately when Police sit and watch letting them do what they wish does not give anybody, especially youngsters, a very good example does it!

[Planemike]

I was none too happy to see the public excluded from the Cenotaph ceremony on Sunday... Just have to accept it, I guess...!!!

[Chugalug2]

He may have served (in what, as what?). He is still a Walt.

[Herod]

I suppose a retrospective court-martial is out of the question. Anyone who has served knows the sacrifices that have been made, and YOU DO NOT step on wreaths of remembrance.

[hoodie]

He may have served (in what, as what?). He is still a Walt.
Four tours in NI, and injured in a bombing in which 2 colleagues were killed, according to this (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/ex-soldier-hurt-in-ira-bomb-why-i-joined-extinction-rebellion-demo-39512057.html).

As such, he should know better. Far better.

[TLDNMCL]

I have no problem with him standing up for his XR beliefs, I have a real problem with him attempting to steal the show, particularly when that show is:
a) To respect those who have gone before on all sides.
b) To remind us all not to go down that road again (which would surely be in line with XR's ideals?).

Editing to say that he was careful in his approach, and withdrawal from the Cenotaph, fair dos; I still disagree hugely with his attempt to steal the show; not the time, not the place.
I stand by my original statement ;

Buffoon.

[Hamsterminator]

Absolutely disgusted by this.

Also downright angry that these morons are undermining their own cause, which is something if left to sane minds would probably be handled just fine.

If they can't play nice, ban the movement and lock them up.

[kghjfg]

Four tours in NI, and injured in a bombing in which 2 colleagues were killed, according to this (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/environment/ex-soldier-hurt-in-ira-bomb-why-i-joined-extinction-rebellion-demo-39512057.html).

As such, he should know better. Far better.

I presume he didn’t like those colleagues and didn’t want to respect their memory.

But I don’t think that means he can tread on the memory of others does it?

Emma Thompson will turn up to defend him shortly I suppose.

[PerPurumTonantes]

May not have been the most sensitive way of going about things.

But he's absolutely right. The biggest risk to our country of climate change is war. It's not rising sea levels, we're not the Maldives. It's not desertification, we're not short of rain. The risk is some poxy country far away that needs water and attacks some other country, and we get drawn in.

Think it's far fetched? Look at ww1. Watch the video above. Read the MoD report.

​​

[BVRAAM]

From what I can see, the Cenotaph wasn't desecrated.
He didn't stand on any of the wreaths that had been laid. In fact, I can see that he was trying to not stand on any of them.

I don't like XR, I think they are an utterly repugnant group and, given their radical energy agenda, it is ironic that they would highlight that climate change means war, when their own vision will also result in conflict over rare earths and other resources to manufacture the kit.

With that said, I think there's quite an overreaction here. I don't see the fallen being disrespected, nobody has attempted to burn the flags, draw graffiti on the Cenotaph or climb on it which is a stark contrast to the events in the summer. The dude just laid a wreath, without standing on any of the others.
Those we are remembering today made the ultimate sacrifice for King/Queen and Country, in the defence of our freedom. One of those freedoms is the freedom of expression, and, while the group is misguided, it is absolutely reasonable to highlight that if we don't tackle climate change now, we will only see an increase in conflict. They have a right to a peaceful protect, just as much as you have the right to call them a bunch of d*cks for doing it on this day. That's how freedom works and I wouldn't want to live anywhere with lower standards.

[pr00ne]

It was a publicity stunt to attract media attention to their cause. Seems it worked.

Oh, and the Cenotaph was opened in 1920 to commemorate those lives lost in WW1. There was no threat to our freedom in WW1 at all.

[BVRAAM]

It was a publicity stunt to attract media attention to their cause. Seems it worked.


Exactly...
They wouldn't do this if it wouldn't get the entire country's backs up. They wanted to start a conversation.

Being a little controversial gets the conversation going. Look - we have an example of that right here.
Now everybody is trying to figure out how this could mean more war, if they haven't figured it out already.

This has even attracted the attention of senior members of Her Majesty's Government, such as Johnny Mercer MP.

[Blue_Circle]

Exactly...
They wanted to start a conversation.
I always question the motives of people when the 'conversation' they want to start is patently only ever going to be at full volume and accompanied by a chest poke.

[BVRAAM]

I always question the motives of people when the 'conversation' they want to start is patently only ever going to be at full volume and accompanied by a chest poke.


I was furious when I saw it the first time, this morning.

I went away, made a cup of coffee and thought about it.

The message isn't wrong, and I watched the video multiple times.

[Asturias56]

XR?? Bunch of eco-warriors currently infiltrated by the Socialist Labour League (Trots) and Young Communists of GB - both are models for the "Peoples Front for the Liberation of Judea" etc etc

[Chugalug2]

It was a publicity stunt to attract media attention to their cause. Seems it worked.

Oh, and the Cenotaph was opened in 1920 to commemorate those lives lost in WW1. There was no threat to our freedom in WW1 at all.

Really? If we'd lost WW1 and the Central Powers were victorious then what price for UK freedoms? Until the USA entered the war such an outcome was a distinct possibility. Those who fought for us on the Western Front and elsewhere were conscious of that possibility and I venture to suggest it was part of why they endured the carnage as they did. It is of course portrayed as nothing of the sort now, that they were Lions led by Donkeys, victims of a class ridden society whereby the poor died so that the rich might get richer. I think that is an insult to the memory of the fallen who died in defence of all our freedoms. Germany suffered terribly in the 'Peace' that ensued, to the extent that they pinned their faith in a regime that soon stripped them of their freedoms. Why should it have been different if the roles were reversed?

As to XR, of course they wanted to cause outrage in order to bring publicity for their cause. Did they succeed? Yes. Were they right to do so? No, it's just another group who know what is right along with all the others that do so too.

[NutLoose]

Says it all really...... what it REALLY is about.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-54840215

[Tashengurt]

I had my ticket and was happily about to jump on the outrage bus... but I see no stamping on wreaths, no desecration. A bit of a wanky protest but climate change affects us all and if we don't pay attention to it the world will suffer as surely as if those we remember hadn't been willing to sacrifice their lives.
There's more than one way to squander a generation.

[KiloB]

The sooner this rebellion is made extinct the better. They are always happy to use what is effectively force, to inconvenience or upset ordinary people going about their normal lives.

[MissChief]

Our freedoms are rapidly dwindling. XR are a bad lot, and their effect is to give an excuse to our "authorities" to clamp down further.

XR, (like BLM and others) are too offensive in their own way to garner mainstream support. But they certainly give an impetus to our governing bodies in the UK to restrict liberty.

[etudiant]

The model is to provoke halfhearted rebellions that can then be wholeheartedly crushed. Has worked for authoritarians for millennia.

[highflyer40]

XR?? Bunch of eco-warriors currently infiltrated by the Socialist Labour League (Trots) and Young Communists of GB - both are models for the "Peoples Front for the Liberation of Judea" etc etc

Ok first up I’m not a climate fanatic. Think we should just adapt as we go. It’s what we are good at. Not changing human nature.

That out of the way this above post is so 50’s. Who cares if they are supported by communists, Buddhists, or the pope himself. This is the 21st century and I think we are beyond the “Red Scare”.

The world has moved on. The day of the major nations going to war for land is long gone. They have all figured out there is no reason, as it can’t be won. You may conquer but you will never rule. Economic war is the way to go now which all major countries have accepted. China is well into this and is leading the fight and to be fair I’m not sure anyone can stop them. Some minor countries with no major economy to speak of still opt for the confrontational approach, but in the main tanks rolling down Main Street are a thing of the past.

[radeng]

If they really believe in a long term approach, they would get themselves sterilised to reduce the world population - although it could well be too late.

[NutLoose]

If they really believe in a long term approach, they would get themselves sterilised to reduce the world population - although it could well be too late.

And light their farts to cut down on the methane output.

[tonker]

The virus deniers were pepper sprayed, and a piper assaulted.

Just saying

[Finningley Boy]

It was a publicity stunt to attract media attention to their cause. Seems it worked.

Oh, and the Cenotaph was opened in 1920 to commemorate those lives lost in WW1. There was no threat to our freedom in WW1 at all.
After the invasion of Belgium, conducted in order to invade France, to deliver a knock out blow to the latter so they couldn't/wouldn't come to the aid of Russian and Serbia, who were next on the German list of nations to confront over the perceived threat to Austria-Hungary. What would have happened if we kept our selves to our selves? I'm not saying this wouldn't have been the better course of action, but had the German Schlieffen plan worked? Also, what about the WW2 crowd? they are represented by the Cenotaph, always have been as well as those who have been placed in harms way since.

FB

[Trumpet trousers]

I think there's a mistake in the veteran's surname, it should be Bell-end

[Compass Call]

I suppose a public hanging is out of the question?

[George Glass]

Worth having a read of the Bio of the founder of XR on Wikipedia.
Good for a chuckle.
” Extreme weather “ events apparently destroyed his tiny farm in Wales.
He might like to visit Australia !
Is there something in the water in the UK at the moment?

[Fareastdriver]

Credit to the BBC for a change. They didn't feature it on the national news.

[typerated]

It is a utterly disrespectful act - no sympathy.

But - I totally understand their concern.
Like the science that says COVID is bad and will kills lots of people, especially if governments don't do hard lockdowns.
Climate/ Environmental science has been pointing out that we marching toward a catastrophe. Orders of magnitude worse for humans and the planet than COVID if we don't change our ways in an dramatic fashion.

we disregard / don't act to our extreme peril.

[Training Risky]

I am currently watching this idiot on morning TV. He just had his ar$e handed to him by Afghan veteran Marine Ben McBean, but still refuses to admit what he did was wrong. Sometimes I feel like putting my foot through the tv and sending ITV and XR the bill!

[Asturias56]

"That out of the way this above post is so 50’s. Who cares if they are supported by communists, Buddhists, or the pope himself. This is the 21st century and I think we are beyond the “Red Scare”.

HF40 if you look at my posting history you'll see I'm no red-baiter and that I believe that climate change is happening and is a big issue

XR started out as a group of people who believed in direct action against climate change - I'm no fan of direct action when there are other avenues to follow but that's what they were. In the last year or so they have been infiltrated by those who want to turn it into another anti-capitalist, anti- business, anti-police action group. The idea is of course to provoke retaliation and radicalise the membership on other issues. It isn't a "Red Scare" - its what is actually happening - the YCLUK is on record telling it's members to join XR for this very reason.

The real issue is that XR turn off more and more people (even Greenpeace deals with them using a very long pole) and they damage the whole climate change debate

[Fortissimo]

and a piper assaulted.

Would that be the piper who deliberately walked into the police cordon and was pushed back before deciding to 'go to ground'? Personally, I would have charged him with assaulting the police officer. Incompetent bag-strangling ought to be included in the Offences against the Person Act.

[ORAC]

The world has moved on. The day of the major nations going to war for land is long gone.
The were saying that in 1910.....

[falcon900]

I was drawn to read this thread by the title "desecration of the Cenotaph", and drawn in further when I read of wreaths being trampled over. My reactions were no different it seems to most others. It is interesting though that you have to read quite a bit further to realise that there was no damage to the Cenotaph, and no trampling of wreaths, and indeed that there seems to have been a degree of care taken to avoid any such damage.
Don't get me wrong, I still think the protest was wholly inappropriate, but the real issues seem to me to be a) How manipulatively the media reported the story , b) how we are supposed to accept this disrespect of a time and place of such national significance under the cloak of "freedom of expression" Would it have been the same if some similarly disrespectful actions had been aimed at a Mosque? or a Pride parade? or a BLM rally?

[BVRAAM]

I was drawn to read this thread by the title "desecration of the Cenotaph", and drawn in further when I read of wreaths being trampled over. My reactions were no different it seems to most others. It is interesting though that you have to read quite a bit further to realise that there was no damage to the Cenotaph, and no trampling of wreaths, and indeed that there seems to have been a degree of care taken to avoid any such damage.
Don't get me wrong, I still think the protest was wholly inappropriate, but the real issues seem to me to be a) How manipulatively the media reported the story , b) how we are supposed to accept this disrespect of a time and place of such national significance under the cloak of "freedom of expression" Would it have been the same if some similarly disrespectful actions had been aimed at a Mosque? or a Pride parade? or a BLM rally?

Exactly.
The protest isn't to my taste, but you could easily argue that ANY protest is done at a time that is inappropriate, because they usually are the result of something outrageous.
I fully understand why so many serving military personnel and veterans were triggered by this, at least initially, but I hope after the cool down and some critical thinking and analysis, they will come to the same conclusion. They're in the business to defend freedom, and sometimes freedom is outrageous.

As for your last question(s), that's a Whataboutism fallacy. The debate isn't about Mosques, Pride or BLM. It's about how a lack of intervention in a global climate crisis will make us less free, and how we can prevent conflict by tackling this challenge.

[falcon900]

BVRAAM,
I wasnt commenting on the merits or otherwise of the protesters cause, but rather how we seem to be expected to be tolerant of some kind of protests but not others. I suspect our views on the issues presented by climate change would not be much different.

[BVRAAM]

Provided they aren't blocking the road and preventing the rest of us from going to and from work, burning down businesses, looting, assaulting the Police or getting within the rona's happy space during this pandemic, I don't really care if people protest. Everyone has the right to a peaceful protest.

[TURIN]

On another site I’ve seen a video of someone dressed as a soldier walking across the wreaths at the cenotaph this morning to place a “climate change” wreath above the others at the cenotaph.

He actually stepped on the wreaths at the Cenotaph.

I’m saddened that XR will not denounce it, I’m saddened that the chap looks in his 70’s and he thinks this is an ok thing to do.

Hoping he’s a Walt.


Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.

[ORAC]

https://order-order.com/2020/11/12/west-dorset-mp-chris-loder-was-behind-xr-wreath-removal/

Chris Loder, the MP for West Dorset has this morning confirmed he was the parliamentarian who yesterday evening removed the Extinction Rebellion protest wreath from the Cenotaph as Guido exclusively reported last night (https://order-order.com/2020/11/11/exclusive-tory-mp-takes-down-extinction-rebellion-wreath/).

Loder has is passionate about this, half the MP’s tweets (https://twitter.com/chrisloder) this month have been dedicated to remembrance, and the Cenotaph was even built with stone from his own constituency. The 2019 intake MP told Guido:

“I could not stand by and watch our Remembrance Day for those who died in war, and to whom we owe so much, be hijacked for a political stunt by this far-left outfit. This was totally wrong, and I believed the wreath should be removed.”

“This week, thousands of veterans and members of the armed forces have stayed away from the Cenotaph in our national effort to control coronavirus. For political protestors to take advantage of this situation is disrespectful to our servicemen and women, past and present. I want them to know that I am on their side and will support them all the way”.

[Al-bert]

Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.

I wholeheartedly concur :ok:

[BVRAAM]

Chris Loder is a disgrace and should have the whip removed for that.

He's an elected representative. He has no business intervening in a peaceful protest.
No matter how much we disagree with the opponent, this is simply wrong.

I despise XR, but they have a right to an opinion. The free speech we should protect the most is that with which we disagree.

[Captain Calamity]

Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.

+1 from me too. Bear in mind that Extinction Rebellion are not one big group, there isn't a membership and anyone can take action in their name - remember the plonker that climbed on the roof of the DLR to protest about people using public transport, for example?

I do agree with some of their views, and for sure climate change leading to global food shortage and displacing millions as fertile land becomes uninhabitable desert will likely cause war and suffering as those that have try to repel those that haven't. Nobody wants that, and but not sure that this was not the time or place to raise the issue - this was a time to reflect on those that have made the ultimate sacrifice, and to politicise this was not right IMO.

[Asturias56]

"as fertile land becomes uninhabitable desert "

yeah but a lot of tundra will become useable land - bigger problem is sea level rise which can flood vast areas of Australia, the Mid West , NW Europe etc etc

[muppetofthenorth]

Chris Loder is a disgrace and should have the whip removed for that.

He's an elected representative. He has no business intervening in a peaceful protest.
No matter how much we disagree with the opponent, this is simply wrong.

I despise XR, but they have a right to an opinion. The free speech we should protect the most is that with which we disagree.
Hang a big old nope on that one.

Just as these numpties had the right to hang something, the MP had the right to remove it. The right isn't one way like you seem to think.

[hoodie]

muppetofthenorth - fully agree. XR made a statement, as is their right. Chris Loder made another, as is his.

It is a shame that one of those rights was exercised in such an obnoxious manner.

[1.3VStall]

Chris Loder is a disgrace and should have the whip removed for that.

He's an elected representative. He has no business intervening in a peaceful protest.

He wasn't intervening in a peaceful protest, he was simply removing an inappropriate wreath that had been placed there by a prat.

[BVRAAM]

Hang a big old nope on that one.

Just as these numpties had the right to hang something, the MP had the right to remove it. The right isn't one way like you seem to think.


He did so as an elected Member of Parliament.

That sends an ugly message.

Now if you or I did it, that's different. I would have gladly removed it, but I am not elected to public office and accountable to the tax payer...

[Easy Street]

He did so as an elected Member of Parliament.

That sends an ugly message.

Now if you or I did it, that's different. I would have gladly removed it, but I am not elected to public office and accountable to the tax payer...

As an MP he is accountable primarily to his electorate, who I dare say back him overwhelmingly. Being in receipt of taxpayers’ money does not in any way constrain MPs’ freedom to take political actions or express political views, indeed in other circumstances they are the least constrained of all citizens in that regard thanks to Parliamentary privilege. There are plenty who see his actions as far from ugly, quite the opposite in fact: standing up for (small-c) conservative values at a time when such things are too easily labelled ‘reactionary’ and their adherents ‘boomers’ or ‘gammons’. Good for him.

[highflyer40]

As an MP he is accountable primarily to his electorate, who I dare say back him overwhelmingly. Being in receipt of taxpayers’ money does not in any way constrain MPs’ freedom to take political actions or express political views, indeed in other circumstances they are the least constrained of all citizens in that regard thanks to Parliamentary privilege. There are plenty who see his actions as far from ugly, quite the opposite in fact: standing up for (small-c) conservative values at a time when such things are too easily labelled ‘reactionary’ and their adherents ‘boomers’ or ‘gammons’. Good for him.

Havent we already seen where “conservative values” get us from across the pond?

[BVRAAM]

As an MP he is accountable primarily to his electorate, who I dare say back him overwhelmingly. Being in receipt of taxpayers’ money does not in any way constrain MPs’ freedom to take political actions or express political views, indeed in other circumstances they are the least constrained of all citizens in that regard thanks to Parliamentary privilege. There are plenty who see his actions as far from ugly, quite the opposite in fact: standing up for (small-c) conservative values at a time when such things are too easily labelled ‘reactionary’ and their adherents ‘boomers’ or ‘gammons’. Good for him.

As a conservative (again, small-C), I value the same things and I certainly wouldn't have protested at the Cenotaph, I just see the big picture and the ugly precedent that he has set, which will undoubtedly be used by others to score points in the future. Again, as a conservative, I am pretty used to my views being censored in the name of "political correctness" these days, so I am mindful of the free speech of others.

By the way, Parliamentary privilege only applies in the Commons/Lords. As soon as they leave the building, they must be responsible with their speech, like the rest of us. For example, Dominic Raab has the total freedom in the main chamber of the House of Commons to reveal the nation's most classified, current foreign intelligence and he cannot be prosecuted for it, because it would be said under Parliamentary privilege. He would go to prison if he revealed the same information in his constituency or elsewhere, outside of Parliament.

[8029848s]

I'll be frank...as an ex serviceman, and someone completely in tune with XR, the desecration of the Cenotaph to forward the issue of climate change is completely unacceptable. I don't have to ask other mates whom are ex servicemen on the issue...they would all agree.

Utterly disgraceful act.......

There are far better forums to forward the issue.

[kghjfg]

Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.

in the same way you are free to support his actions and would do the same yourself, I am free to find them despicable.

I know a XR Lieutenant (yes, they give themselves military ranks), I know exactly how they operate and their purpose, and if you think it’s about the environment, you are a bigger wally than Mr Bellend himself.

(What a name!)

[highflyer40]

I'll be frank...as an ex serviceman, and someone completely in tune with XR, the desecration of the Cenotaph to forward the issue of climate change is completely unacceptable. I don't have to ask other mates whom are ex servicemen on the issue...they would all agree.

Utterly disgraceful act.......

There are far better forums to forward the issue.

Just watched the video and how did he desecrate the memorial? He never once touched a wreath. He stepped very carefully and considerately. Just trying to see
where everyone’s wrath is coming from? I can’t see anything on the video.

[8029848s]

The dead (especially our servicemen and women) should not be used for propaganda....it's immoral....simple really when you think about it....

[Tashengurt]

Most naive statement ever.

[Easy Street]

BVRAAM, you come across as exceptionally patronising. If you read more carefully you’ll note that I clearly mention Parliamentary privilege applying “in other circumstances”. In other words, not to this particular case.

Your position seems to be grounded in the mistaken idea that the right of free expression is accompanied by an entitlement to a platform. The Cenotaph fits most people’s definition of an inappropriate platform for any message besides one of remembrance, especially around Armistice Day. ‘Silencing’ XR’s act is no more a breach of free speech than broadcasters and masters of ceremonies pulling the plug on speakers as they ramble off-topic, or councils cleaning off graffiti.

[Waypoint Short]

Just watched the video and how did he desecrate the memorial? He never once touched a wreath. He stepped very carefully and considerately. Just trying to see
where everyone’s wrath is coming from? I can’t see anything on the video.

Posters on this thread already had an option and aired their dirty laundry without even so much as checking for facts.

Now back to the 'plane talk?

[Ascend Charlie]

How many Extinction Rebellion protesters does it take to change a light globe?

Nobody knows, they have never changed anything...

[mikewil]

Funny how they do their cause the opposite of what they aim to achieve.

It's because of people like them disrupting our lives that make everyone want to do the complete opposite and vote for Trump...

[George Glass]

When I was at University in the 70s it was the Trotskyists .
They transmogrified into the Greenpeace then the Socialist Alliance and now Getup and XR.
There is a proportion of society that lives in a state of permanent grievance and whose solution is always the same.
A variation of Fascism / Communism / Trotskyism / Maoism blah blah blah.....
The cycle repeats.
The Enlightenment , Reformation and the defeat of Communism / Fascism may be historic aberrations.
Normal service will be resumed..........

[BEagle]

When I was at university in London's East End at the beginning of the '70s, there wasn't such a plethora of groups. 'SocSoc' was a bunch of noisy socialists, there were anti-Barclays Bank protesters (due to Barclays DCO having South African investments in the apartheid era), Peter Hain and the Anti-Apartheid Movement, NUS protests etc. Skinheads threatening 'bovver' were soon reminded that, even though they were behind bars, The Twins didn't approve of casual crime or street violence on 'their manor'.....

Fortunately the University Air Squadron held much greater interest - and as APOs we were well paid after 1970!

[Chugalug2]

I support the OP. In my view this stunt did amount to desecration, never mind if wreaths were trodden on or deftly avoided. Whether one supports the ideals of those involved or not, they were wrong to promote them on that date and at that place. The Cenotaph means so much to those who've lost those to whom it is dedicated. It means less or nothing to those who have used it over the years to express their protests or anger, against whom or whatever. There is a growing tendency these days to demand one's own rights, including an ever widening interpretation of what is 'free speech', rather than a consideration of the rights of others.

In wearing his uniform to conduct this act of desecration this ex soldier brought shame upon it as well as himself. Single item agenda lists always skew any resultant acts towards the disproportionate and inappropriate. This act was completely inappropriate and unjustified.

[Burnt Fishtrousers]

XR offer no solution only a lack of respect and disruption to those going about their business and are usually in the form of down trodden leftie types such as the great unwashed, the unemployed and students.
They shout, scream, tantrum and holler like juviniles, Whereas those making a difference to reduce climate change, across all industries, quietly innovate, create employment and better peoples lives for a lower carbon future

[kessler1]

I have no love for groups such as XR or any others, however I watched the video several times and I did not see him stepping on wreaths, he was in fact quite respectful as far as I could see.

Rory

[mbriscoe]

He wasn't intervening in a peaceful protest, he was simply removing an inappropriate wreath that had been placed there by a prat.

The wreath was significantly bigger than the others and placed higher up than the others which is not in accordance with normal "Flag Ettiquette".

The Metropolitan Police took no action, just sat in their van.

[highflyer40]

The wreath was significantly bigger than the others and placed higher up than the others which is not in accordance with normal "Flag Ettiquette".

The Metropolitan Police took no action, just sat in their van.

That would probably be because it wasn’t a police matter. He hadn’t broken any laws. So why would they intervene? “Flag Ettiquette”. Seriously?

I don’t go in for XR and wish they would just go away, but he didn’t lay a placard. He laid a wreath. You may not like that it didn’t conform with your perceived standards, but it was a wreath.

[Kiltrash]

What I saw was that this was in London and when he was interviewed the next day we was, presumably, at home in Cambridge
Which part of essential work journeys only did he not understand. ..
So why did he not do this in Cambridge....ah yes national reporting.. Egotistical git....

[highflyer40]

What I saw was that this was in London and when he was interviewed the next day we was, presumably, at home in Cambridge
Which part of essential work journeys only did he not understand. ..
So why did he not do this in Cambridge....ah yes national reporting.. Egotistical git....

Actually Remembrance Day activities were exempt from travel restrictions. Otherwise all those others there would have been guilty of the same offence. I don’t imagine they all lived within walking distance of the centotaph.

[fitliker]

There was a time if a soldier was still wearing the uniform he could be charged under the Kings regulations .
What changed ? If the protestor is still wearing the uniform is he not under the rules and regulations ?

[highflyer40]

There was a time if a soldier was still wearing the uniform he could be charged under the Kings regulations .
What changed ? If the protestor is still wearing the uniform is he not under the rules and regulations ?

Again. What rule or regulation would he have broken?

[fitliker]

Not familiar enough with the modern Codes to give a specific charge On a charge sheet to someone offering a provocation to disturb the peace .
Such disrespect is definitely a provocation and most might be forgiven for reacting to such an affront and provocation . Not everyone has the hard discipline to turn the other cheek to Extremist provocations against our cultural heritage . Heritage that was once defended by Blood.

[highflyer40]

Not familiar enough with the modern Codes to give a specific charge On a charge sheet to someone offering a provocation to disturb the peace .
Such disrespect is definitely a provocation and most might be forgiven for reacting to such an affront and provocation . Not everyone has the hard discipline to turn the other cheek to Extremist provocations against our cultural heritage . Heritage that was once defended by Blood.

Provocation is a very subjective word.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a fan of XR. I’m more a climate indifferent type.

I think you old timers just take offence too easily at anything that disturbs your traditions. Traditions are just that, a tradition and not a law or even a societal norm. Actually the normal nowadays is to break tradition and do your own thing. I guess that is understandable as when younger you are looking forwards but once you get older you just look back on life and traditions become important.

[viz]

I think you old timers just take offence too easily at anything that disturbs your traditions.

No, I think 'Old Timers' have a sense of tradition but the people you call Old Timers probably have parents and grandparents who fought in Wars for the freedom of today's generation and when they see anyone desecrating memorials and writing "Is a Nazi" under the statue of Churchill.. the person who fought for their liberty.. they take offence. I do too and if you have a problem with that then I suggest that you need a sense of perspective.

[highflyer40]

No, I think 'Old Timers' have a sense of tradition but the people you call Old Timers probably have parents and grandparents who fought in Wars for the freedom of today's generation and when they see anyone desecrating memorials and writing "Is a Nazi" under the statue of Churchill.. the person who fought for their liberty.. they take offence. I do too and if you have a problem with that then I suggest that you need a sense of perspective.

You are changing the story. I think everyone would be offended by your example. That is blatant extremism. The act in question is very subjective. A man very delicately (watch the video) stepping around the wreathes to place his a wreath just like others had. It had four words on it that on the face of it weren’t offensive (but otherwise a very respectful wreath).

I also have the feeling that if some LGBT daughter of a vet had placed a rainbow wreath we would be having the same argument.

[viz]

The act in question is very subjective.

Utter bollox and measly mouth rhetoric.. the act in question is not subjective and if you can provide a link between what you call "Old Timers" who wish to respect those that gave their lives for our freedom and someone who wishes to make a poliical statement against what he believes is climate change then I'd like to hear it.

[highflyer40]

Utter bollox and measly mouth rhetoric.. the act in question is not subjective and if you can provide a link between what you call "Old Timers" who wish to respect those that gave their lives for our freedom and someone who wishes to make a poliical statement against what he believes is climate change then I'd like to hear it.

Tried to upload an image but it wouldn’t work(you can google it). It was a wreath laid at the cenotaph by the scouts saying “Scouts, join now”. I would say that is exactly the same as what we are talking about here. The only difference is it may be something you believe in. Like I said, subjective.

It’s quite funny because a lot of the older generation make fun of who they call “snowflakes” that get offended about everything. Which is true, but it’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle black as you are just as likely to find offence to anything that offends your traditions or “the way it used to be”.

[kghjfg]

The act in question is very subjective. A man very delicately (watch the video) stepping around the wreathes to place his a wreath just like others had. It had four words on it that on the face of it weren’t offensive (but otherwise a very respectful wreath).

I also have the feeling that if some LGBT daughter of a vet had placed a rainbow wreath we would be having the same argument.

No sane person would have done what he did, if you wanted to place a wreath at the cenotaph, you’d be respectful and add your wreath to the other wreaths.

When you go to a funeral, do you step carefully through the flowers to make sure yours are definitely at the top/centre and most prominent place ? Definitely on the top of the coffin where no one else has placed a wreath.

You probably do! Maybe that’s why you see no problem in this act. There’s a lot of people saying “Me first”, usually XR types.

I’d really like to slash his tyres on his car as a protest. Funny how XR people have cars !
The hypocrisy is outstanding, it’s YOU who shouldn’t have a car, not them.

If any of the squadrons placing wreaths at the cenotaph had acted like that we would also behaving this same conversation, we’d be saying “Did you see the way those arrogant twats from 2nn squadron acted”

So in your eyes, it’s ok if XR act like this, but not ok for everyone else?

Funny thing is, if they’d laid it respectfully that would have been fine in my eyes.

if a rainbow wreath had been placed respectfully no one here would mind or notice (except you of course, who would seem to have a problem with it)

[Chugalug2]

if a rainbow wreath had been placed respectfully no one here would mind or notice (except you of course, who would seem to have a problem with it)

It was :-

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/172x160/th_273e43249904c6045b97890f26203870505f06d5.jpg

[xenolith]

highflyer40

Again. What rule or regulation would he have broken?

The Uniforms Act 1894 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/57-58/45

[Training Risky]

It was :-


That rainbow wreath is obviously in the same league as the XR wreath. A grandstanding political stunt designed to push an agenda. No place for it at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day!

What's next? A big BLM wreath saying "act now on Colonialism"? A #metoo wreath with a picture of Weinstein?!
​​​​​​

[BVRAAM]

That rainbow wreath is obviously in the same league as the XR wreath. A grandstanding political stunt designed to push an agenda. No place for it at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day!

What's next? A big BLM wreath saying "act now on Colonialism"? A #metoo wreath with a picture of Weinstein?!
​​​​​​

Are you serious?
Shall we just ignore the many thousands of LGBT+ people who have given their lives in defence of this country, the majority of which during a time when they weren't allowed to serve openly as who they were?
I really hope you're being ironic.

[Chugalug2]

Absolutely BVRAAM, every one who has fallen in war is the subject of Remembrance no matter their Colour, Creed, Race, sexual preference, whatever, and wreaths laid in their honour by individuals or associations are the traditional signifiers of that. They often bear the mottos of their associations or Service (like Be Prepared for the Scouts, many of whom died as such serving as messengers/runners). What they shouldn't bear is slogans (Join the Scouts, Act Now, etc). It's a War Memorial, not an advertising hoarding!

[Finningley Boy]

Tried to upload an image but it wouldn’t work(you can google it). It was a wreath laid at the cenotaph by the scouts saying “Scouts, join now”. I would say that is exactly the same as what we are talking about here. The only difference is it may be something you believe in. Like I said, subjective.

It’s quite funny because a lot of the older generation make fun of who they call “snowflakes” that get offended about everything. Which is true, but it’s a bit like the pot calling the kettle black as you are just as likely to find offence to anything that offends your traditions or “the way it used to be”.
I've just turned 60 and don't know if that quite qualifies me as an old timer, I hope it does. I've no wish at alI to be counted among arrogant self-superior and largely ill-informed younger generations. I find the constant attempts by, broadly younger people, though there are plenty of old timers among them, to question traditions and customs and dabbling in revisionist history (that's how we've ended up with some stupid berk spray painting 'is a Nazi' on Winston Churchill's Plinth), increasingly irritating. For a start highflyer 40, your comment about the Scouts, I suspect your trying to compare their right to lay a wreath at the cenotaph with that Bell fellah, who as has been noted, attempted to place his political message in prominence to all else. The Scouts are a recognised sympathetic institution not a controversial political extremist movement, yet today their founder Baden-Powell, along with Churchill and others, is analysed by people, judged by unrealistic modern standards, perhaps by many from more recent generations, certainly with no apparent grasp of perspective. To judge these men by what passes for moral acceptance and standards of civilized behaviour today is the same as subjecting Admiral Nelson, a man who's life straddled the 18th and 19th Centuries, to the same scrutiny accorded by a very narrow understanding of the past.. but then again, they've done just that! who's next, the Duke of Wellington, Oliver Cromwell or King Charles II? These historic figures would all be in jail or a secure psychiatric ward today if the practiced now what they did then, they're products of the times they were born into and brought up in. It's the moral relevance, fortitude of these past characters and what they achieved which took us further to what we've become, I hope there is no irony there. Older people get annoyed at the ignorance of those who have attracted (not from me) the tag of 'Snowflake'. I prefer Bonehead.

FB

[Kent Based]

From Canada 2016........https://www.google.com/amp/s/calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-drag-queen-lays-wreath-in-remembrance-of-lgbtq-soldiers/wcm/bb12cc08-037e-4dc4-9413-735adf71332a/amp/

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Finningley Boy: From another 'Old Timer' - have an uptick......... +1 :ok:

Thoroughly sick of these people and their (social) media gambits. Free speech, the right to debate (as opposed to being shouted down) and protest is a fundamental right of a free, democratic, healthy society; BUT there is time and place for everything. This wasn't it.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Finningley Boy, Downwind.Maddl-Land,

I have no real wish to become involved in this somewhat specious arguement, but must agree that this was not the time or place to carry out this act! We all have our own thoughts and ideals for everything but this is, in my opinion only, not the place for any political (!) or personal act other than to remember those who gave their lives! By all means lay a wreath - with respect!!

Bill

[Vortex Hoop]

Absolutely BVRAAM, every one who has fallen in war is the subject of Remembrance no matter their Colour, Creed, Race, sexual preference, whatever, and wreaths laid in their honour by individuals or associations are the traditional signifiers of that. They often bear the mottos of their associations or Service (like Be Prepared for the Scouts, many of whom died as such serving as messengers/runners). What they shouldn't bear is slogans (Join the Scouts, Act Now, etc). It's a War Memorial, not an advertising hoarding!
No. you are missing the point that overtly political flags like the gay pride flag, are inappropriate for a wreath at the Cenotaph.

All those people you mention, sexual orientation-wise, are remembered by the various Service wreaths. No need to bring posturing political flags and slogans into it.

BVRAAM. Haven’t you been warned already about wading into subjects you clearly know nothing about?

[Training Risky]

Are you serious?
Shall we just ignore the many thousands of LGBT+ people who have given their lives in defence of this country, the majority of which during a time when they weren't allowed to serve openly as who they were?
I really hope you're being ironic.
Familiar with wedge theory? Step by step the door can be opened for political messaging by the radical left. So Don't lecture me with your pathetic virtue signalling. The gay veterans you mention are already covered by the tributes at the Cenotaph. the Cenotaph is NOT for political stunts.

Get some time in, if OASC will allow you, before you try to pontificate on subjects you know nothing about.

[BVRAAM]

Don't lecture me with your pathetic virtue signalling. The gay veterans you mention are already covered by the tributes at the Cenotaph. the Cenotaph is NOT for political stunts.

Get some time in, if OASC will allow you, before you try to pontificate on subjects you know nothing about.

War by its very nature is political. All of it. The politicians make the decision to go to war, and it's the young men and women who are sent off to fight it. Therefore, acts of remembrance are also political due to the political connection to war.
Even if the Pride flag was political (it's not, by the way... you are wrong), it represents those who were politically and societally oppressed by the very governments and society that they served and protected. Arguably, they are far better people than those who seek to unrecognize their service and sacrifice which has allowed this country to remain so great.
It's not virtue signalling, it's calling out blatant bigotry, which ironically is not tolerated in the Service you speak of.

[Training Risky]

War by its very nature is political. All of it. The politicians make the decision to go to war, and it's the young men and women who are sent off to fight it. Therefore, acts of remembrance are also political due to the political connection to war.
Even if the Pride flag was political (it's not, by the way... you are wrong), it represents those who were politically and societally oppressed by the very governments and society that they served and protected. Arguably, they are far better people than those who seek to unrecognize their service and sacrifice which has allowed this country to remain so great.
It's not virtue signalling, it's calling out blatant bigotry, which ironically is not tolerated in the Service you speak of.
​​​​​​No. You are so wrong you don't know what you don't know. If you ever attend Cranwell you would do well to pin your ears back and learn from those who know better. Political activity is incompatible with military service. It is a political flag, along with BLM, XR and all the other social engineering experiments.

You do a great disservice to veterans by effectively calling Remembrance parades a political march. Stop now before you embarrass yourself further.

[chaps1954]

Remembering the war dead isn`t political as it covers all the parties, relegions, races. Wars may be political but it depends on who was in power at the time and what their reaction to the cause is and also the will of the people.

[BVRAAM]

​​​​​​No. You are so wrong you don't know what you don't know. If you ever attend Cranwell you would do well to pin your ears back and learn from those who know better. Political activity is incompatible with military service. It is a political flag, along with BLM, XR and all the other social engineering experiments.

You do a great disservice to veterans by effectively calling Remembrance parades a political march. Stop now before you embarrass yourself further.

It's extremely sad that you think accepting people for how nature intended, to allow them to be open about the fact without persecution is a "social engineering experiment."
It's not a social engineering experiment, it's a moral imperative and I think most people serving in the Armed Forces today would agree that it's one of the things that gives them the moral edge over the enemy that they're fighting.
I did not call Remembrance parades a political march in the slightest, so don't try to put words into my mouth to deflect the attention. The people we commemorate were put in that position by politicians. It's as simple as that, so it's factually correct to highlight how politics relates to remembrance.

[Training Risky]

War by its very nature is political. (Snip). Therefore, acts of remembrance are also political due to the political connection to war.
Your words. Not mine. So yes, you did. Own it.

I dont give a tinker's cuss for what you think is a moral imperative, or what you think people in an Armed Forces of which you know nothing care about.

I do care about Remembrance Day being hijacked for political stunts though. Which is the thread topic.

​

[BVRAAM]

Your words. Not mine. So yes, you did. Own it.

I dont give a tinker's cuss for what you think is a moral imperative, or what you think people in an Armed Forces of which you know nothing care about.

I do care about Remembrance Day being hijacked for political stunts though. Which is the thread topic.

​


It still doesn't say what you claimed it said, and once again you are playing mental gymnastics because your very resistance to what you perceive to be a "political stunt" is an actual political stunt, performed by those with quite fundamentalist political agendas.
The Pride movement was intended to fight the stigma attached to members of the LGBT+ community from being open about their difference in sexual orientation. If the truth be told, in principle it's no different to the movement to raise awareness of mental health, another stigma that society is becoming increasingly aware of, and we will fight that one, too. Neither of which are political.

Look, I get it... you're uncomfortable with LGBT+ service personnel who have died on operations, being commemorated for their service. That's not entirely your fault, but when you express your discomfort on an open forum, you will be challenged over it. I don't care in the slightest how resentful you are of the fact. I do care about those who are still serving, though, and the message that will be sent to them by not challenging views such as those that you have expressed.

[Training Risky]

It still doesn't say what you claimed it said
Yes it does. Claiming the opposite is denying the obvious and makes you look foolish. The evidence is there for all to see. As I said, own it.


The Pride movement was intended to fight the stigma attached to members of the LGBT+ community from being open about their difference in sexual orientation. (Snip) Neither of which are political.
You are contradicting yourself again. The Gay pride movement is an intensely political movement which has now gained traction in Government and the media after years of political campaigning. It worked. The gay ban was lifted while I was still serving, so the battle was won! Done deal. Further flag waving and use of the flag at the Cenotaph is not only political and inappropriate, it is unnecessary.

​​Look, I get it... you're uncomfortable with LGBT+ service personnel who have died on operations, being commemorated for their service. That's not entirely your fault, but when you express your discomfort on an open forum, you will be challenged over it. I don't care in the slightest how resentful you are of the fact. I do care about those who are still serving, though, and the message that will be sent to them by not challenging views such as those that you have expressed.
Those people are represented by ALL the tri-service wreaths. It is one big inclusive service commemorating ALL veterans, not just the ones you wish to bang your political drum for.

You are not challenging anything, just parading your poundshop sixth-form Antifa debating skills on said open forum...and making yourself look rather immature. If you do ever join, you may realise this. Edit: c.f. Your comments on Chris Loder MP having the whip removed for stepping in to remove the disgraceful political protest banner. Think on that.

[Easy Street]

BVRAAM, your wilful misinterpretations and patronising tone are wearing very thin indeed. Remembrance has never paid any heed to rank, service, sex, creed, colour, class, or any other characteristic of the dead. None of it matters except for the fact they died in wartime service; indeed the Unknown Soldier could have been a gay black man for all anyone knows. I have always understood wreaths bearing unit badges or other symbols to show who is doing the remembering, not who is being remembered. And I join others in taking a dim view of them being used to send any other message, whether that’s ‘save the planet’, ‘join the Scouts’ or ‘be LGBT+ aware’. It is not the platform for any message besides remembrance of all the fallen.

[BVRAAM]

Yes it does. Claiming the opposite is denying the obvious and makes you look foolish. The evidence is there for all to see. As I said, own it.



You are contradicting yourself again. The Gay pride movement is an intensely political movement which has now gained traction in Government and the media after years of political campaigning. It worked. The gay ban was lifted while I was still serving, so the battle was won! Done deal. Further flag waving and use of the flag at the Cenotaph is not only political and inappropriate, it is unnecessary.

​​
Those people are represented by ALL the tri-service wreaths. It is one big inclusive service commemorating ALL veterans, not just the ones you wish to bang your political drum for.

You are not challenging anything, just parading your poundshop sixth-form Antifa debating skills on said open forum...and making yourself look rather immature. If you do ever join, you may realise this. Edit: c.f. Your comments on Chris Loder MP having the whip removed for stepping in to remove the disgraceful political protest banner. Think on that.
​​​​​​
Here come the ad hominem attacks. Lovely.

There are two sides to every story and these people would argue that the fight for acceptance is far from "won." They are well within their right to lay a wreath for those who were forbidden from expressing pride in themselves, while still prepared to give their lives for a cause that they believed to be bigger than themselves.
I am banging no such political drum here. Your ANTIFA reference is so far off the mark, it's laughable.

[BVRAAM]

BVRAAM, your wilful misinterpretations and patronising tone are wearing very thin indeed. Remembrance has never paid any heed to rank, service, sex, creed, colour, class, or any other characteristic of the dead. None of it matters except for the fact they died in wartime service; indeed the Unknown Soldier could have been a gay black man for all anyone knows. I have always understood wreaths bearing unit badges or other symbols to show who is doing the remembering, not who is being remembered. And I join others in taking a dim view of them being used to send any other message, whether that’s ‘save the planet’, ‘join the Scouts’ or ‘be LGBT+ aware’. It is not the platform for any message besides remembrance of all the fallen.

It's not patronising to point out when an argument is utter hoop.
LGBT acceptance is not political, it's a moral imperative. There is absolutely nothing political about it. I disagree with your view.

[Training Risky]

​​​​​​
Here come the ad hominem attacks. Lovely.

There are two sides to every story and these people would argue that the fight for acceptance is far from "won." They are well within their right to lay a wreath for those who were forbidden from expressing pride in themselves, while still prepared to give their lives for a cause that they believed to be bigger than themselves.
I am banging no such political drum here. Your ANTIFA reference is so far off the mark, it's laughable.
hint: people disagreeing with you =/= ad hominem attacks, nor is it abuse. And no, there is no 'right' to lay a political banner/wreath at the Cenotaph. Even the veterans groups with a bagpiper were kept out of Whitehall by an aggressive Met Police cordon.

[BVRAAM]

hint: people disagreeing with you =/= ad hominem attacks, nor is it abuse. And no, there is no 'right' to lay a political banner/wreath at the Cenotaph. Even the veterans groups with a bagpiper were kept out of Whitehall by an aggressive Met Police cordon.
The argument isn't the ad hom, the way in which it's presented is the ad hom.

Yes, there is a 'right,' commemorating the sacrifices made by the fallen falls within freedom of expression.

The Met Police incident you refer to was for public safety in the midst of a pandemic, never before has the Remembrance Sunday event been closed to the public.

​​​​

[Easy Street]

It's not patronising to point out when an argument is utter hoop.
LGBT acceptance is not political, it's a moral imperative. There is absolutely nothing political about it. I disagree with your view.

I said nothing about ‘LGBT acceptance’ being political, any more than ‘join the Scouts’ is political. My point is that any message besides remembrance, political or not, is inappropriate in that setting. But I will follow you off-topic to point out that your latest argument is utter hoop because you have conflated ‘acceptance’ with ‘discrimination’. Discrimination is a settled matter politically and law-abiding citizens can indeed be said to be under a moral imperative not to do it. In contrast, you and I might well see LGBT acceptance as a personal moral imperative, but try telling that to those with certain genuinely-held religious beliefs and see whether you still think it’s an apolitical matter (https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/06/25/global-divide-on-homosexuality-persists/). In fact I can’t think of anything more politically-charged than telling people what to think.

[Finningley Boy]

Bill McGillivray,

I agree about the Scouts join up message, remembrance and the Cenotaph are neither the time or place for such slogans, anymore than the XR's save the Planet message or whatever it said, and I agree anyone can lay a wreath and where there is space, not, however delicately, step among previous wreathes to lay yours in a more prominent position, as if demanding of higher recognition. The Queen's wreath, I understand is laid first and placed most prominently on the day and this is as it should be.

Downwind Maddl-and,

Thanks for your reply, I more than others have a tendency to get carried away when posting, especially when the topic and some other posts are ones which I find unduly provocative at times. But I'm glad you see my point through the rambling.

FB

[Training Risky]

Yes, there is a 'right,' commemorating the sacrifices made by the fallen falls within freedom of expression.
​​​​
Please explain where in our Constitution we have an enshrined freedom of expression?! I would love to know. Give us some more hyperbole please.

The regular people trying to access the Cenotaph should have been able to comemorate the Dead but unfortunately came up against the very selective policing standards of the Met which allow some protests...but not others.

[Chugalug2]

In fairness to the Scouts, I have yet to see any image of a wreath saying 'Join the Scouts' or the like. The only images of Scout wreaths I have found are a standard 'Scouts, Be Prepared' which is no different to any RAF wreath for instance that bears a motto. The alleged 'Join the Scouts' wreath was instanced by one poster who then confessed he was unable to find it on Google!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/236x180/oip_4ab1b97db212e87719e0fdffe34d5e5eb973bf6e.jpg

[salad-dodger]

This thread seems to have descended into somewhere for BVRAAM to practice his debating skills (or lack of).

It seems there’s a general consensus on this thread that ER placing their ‘wreath’ on The Cenotaph, at the time they did, is pretty distasteful and unwelcome. Unfortunately, BVRAAM looks to tell us all why it is okay - I’m not going to into the detail of his various specious arguments, it’s just not worth it.

[OmegaV6]

If XR had simply had someone walk up to the Cenotaph, respectfully lay a wreath at the foot, alongside all the other wreaths, then walk away, this debate would not be occuring. Other organisations (including LGBT ones) managed to do so, thus showing respect.

The fact that the man deliberately walked "through" and placed his wreath "above" others, with the action being filmed, is what took the "gesture" from being one of respect, to being a political statement.

It is that aspect that makes it aborrent to me..... respect I can admire... "using" the Act of Remembrance for political purposes I cannot.

[Chugalug2]

Absolutely OV6. Well said!

[Kent Based]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x320/remembrance_day_extinction_rebellion_thelightscaper_9_85068a f626460cf5b7897b0bd87b10cd2431bb95.jpg
I'm unsure why Chris Loder MP is credited with removing the wreath, when the Police were filmed taking in down shortly after it was placed? Photo from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13165403/fury-extinction-rebellion-climate-change-banner-remembrance-day/

[ICM]

I doubt it will change minds, but I've just seen this academic input:

https://defenceindepth.co/2020/11/16/extinction-rebellion-and-the-politics-of-remembrance/

[Chugalug2]

Helen McCartney, 'Reader' :-

This view that remembrance is an apolitical act helps to underpin a contemporary narrative that dissociates armed forces (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14751798.2011.557213) personnel from the political ends they are required to serve by the government of the day

In my day the Armed Forces did dissociate themselves with the political ends of the democratically elected Government of the day, and simply did as they were legally ordered. Has that changed?

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/mccartney-dr-helen

[NutLoose]

Not a problem here putting down a wreath with the rest of them around the base, it was the banner across the fence that took it from simply paying respect to another level.
Sensible course would have been to remove the banners forthwith and then the wreath and place it among the others around the base.

[Easy Street]

In my day the Armed Forces did dissociate themselves with the political ends of the democratically elected Government of the day, and simply did as they were legally ordered. Has that changed?

No change in terms of how the military conducts itself. I understand the commentary to be about how wider society views the civil-military relationship and how its perception has been shaped over time. The most obvious case in the UK context is the Helmand campaign and the efforts taken to prevent the sort of harmful societal divisions seen in the US during Vietnam; I think those efforts have been perhaps too successful in that they’ve allowed Government to abdicate an excessive degree of responsibility for veterans’ services to the charitable sector. But I digress.

[Training Risky]

No change in terms of how the military conducts itself. I understand the commentary to be about how wider society views the civil-military relationship and how its perception has been shaped over time. The most obvious case in the UK context is the Helmand campaign and the efforts taken to prevent the sort of harmful societal divisions seen in the US during Vietnam; I think those efforts have been perhaps too successful in that they’ve allowed Government to abdicate an excessive degree of responsibility for veterans’ services to the charitable sector. But I digress.
Fully agree. I may also add that at the height of Herrick and the years after, some very big UK investment banks were paying lip service to the Service Covenant while proudly crowing about their commitment to it. Eg, holding Engagement events and jobs fairs for Leavers which resulted in not even a sniff of work experience, training, development...let alone a job.

[Chugalug2]

It strikes me that Ms McCartney is 'reading' into Remembrance what she wishes to. Of course there was a bitter reaction to WWI in its aftermath. See Bob Beckman's Surviving the Downwave, according to which there are Up-Wave and Down-Wave Wars, the former prefaced by patriotic fervour, the latter with dread. The former end in bitter dispute as to why we went to war in the first place and who was responsible, the latter in quiet relief. WWI was thus an Up-Wave War, WWII a Down-Wave one. Other wars are available...All of which has nothing to do with Remembrance in which we honour those who died in whatever wars, 'justified' or not.

The politicisation of Remembrance as a concept is created by people like Ms McCartney and others who are 'opposed' to war, as distinct from those who serve or who have served who are either viewed as victims, or warmongers, or both. The 'academics' are at the forefront of such thinking, as indeed they are in most protest movements these days, some of them even leading their own school students to the streets to demonstrate in righteous protest. Most of my teachers had served (some in both World Wars!). Rather than enjoining us to protest we were simply obliged to just get on with our studies, even amidst the ill-fated Suez Campaign.

[NutLoose]

Wars would be better sorted if you took the barstewards that start them, give them a musket and chuck them all on an island until its over... that way they would have more sense than to start it in the first place.

[TURIN]

in the same way you are free to support his actions and would do the same yourself, I am free to find them despicable.

I know a XR Lieutenant (yes, they give themselves military ranks), I know exactly how they operate and their purpose, and if you think it’s about the environment, you are a bigger wally than Mr Bellend himself.

(What a name!)
Why was it necessary to lie in the original post? He did not srep on other wreaths, he was very careful not to. It does not matter whether or not I support his protest. My beef is the OP blatantly being false.
But go ahead, play the man not the ball. Name calling to avoid the argument. Righto.