Berlin Brandenburg

[txl]

It's with great relief and some sadness that I can report that Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg "Willy Brandt" (BER) opened for business today. The first two flights (Easyjet U23110 from TXL and Lufthansa LH2020 from MUC) just landed half an hour ago. After eight years of delays and quite some scandal, this hot mess of an airport project finally goes operational. The deep irony is that BER opens with this pandemic hitting aviation and everybody else hard, so there will be not much business at BER in the foreseeable future. And as you might guess from my handle on this humble forum, I am also a bit sad because this means that my favorite neighborhood airport of the last 30 years will be closed for good. Goodbye, TXL.

[Less Hair]

AFAIK Tegel will be kept on standby for another six months. Could any non-scheduled flight still land at Tegel during this time?

[txl]

Yes, TXL will be kept operational for another six months. Don't know about actual flights, though. Last day of regular ops will be Nov 7. On Nov 8, a final Air France flight will depart to Paris CDG. First scheduled flight to land at TXL in 1960 also was an AF. German Air Force will continue chopper service for our beloved government from TXL for a couple of years. The airport buildings and grounds will be converted to a university campus, business sites and living areas.

[tubby linton]

Are there any plans for the B707 that has been sitting in the grass at TXL for many years? It has a very interesting history. https://digitalcosmonaut.com/2016/berlin-tegel-abandoned-boeing-707/

[Less Hair]

I heard it will be chopped. No museum is interested and its hard to move anywhere else.

[scr1]

Like the flight numbers and the fact the first to land was a UK reg aircraft

[Lonewolf_50]

Wasn't Tegel "the new airport" back in the late 1960's? I have vague memory of it being able to handle some traffic that Tempelhof could not (747s? maybe), but I was school aged back then so details are foggy-to-gone at this point

[txl]

Are there any plans for the B707 that has been sitting in the grass at TXL for many years? It has a very interesting history. https://digitalcosmonaut.com/2016/berlin-tegel-abandoned-boeing-707/

The B707 has been rotting away there for years, interiors have been stolen. Lufthansa gifted the airframe to Technikmuseum Berlin, but they neither have the space nor financial means to restore it. So it's going to be demolished in the coming months, on Lufthansa's dime.

[PilotLZ]

Good old TXL felt a bit like a trip into the 1980s from outside. That brutalist terminal building just belongs to a different epoch. Hopefully they will find a way to revive "Die S-Bahn" though, the Currywurst in that little red train carriage was really good.

[inbalance]

I landed on the new Runway many moons ago, together with a whole lot other aircraft.
So not a british reg has been the first aircraft to land, it was a pegasus 737
That happened in 02.05.2015 during a trial for the new runway and renovation of the other runway.
First takeoff was a condor A320 at 0535 local and first landing was the pegasus 737 at 0555 local

The first touch and go was a german flightinstructor with a small cessna, he touched during the construction of the new runway nearly 8 years ago.
That was ilegal and he was fined about the landing.

[WHBM]

Yes, TXL will be kept operational for another six months. Don't know about actual flights, though. Last day of regular ops will be Nov 7. On Nov 8, a final Air France flight will depart to Paris CDG. First scheduled flight to land at TXL in 1960 also was an AF.
Tegel was in the French Sector of Berlin, so of course AF was the first and now appropriately the last. Tempelhof was in the American Sector, and Gatow in the British Sector. In the Soviet Sector was Adlershof. Contrary to much belief, Schonefeld was not in the Soviet Sector, or in East Berlin, but (just) outside, in the mainstream DDR, which led to all sorts of additional bureaucratic issues to get there from West Berlin.

[inbalance]

Like the flight numbers and the fact the first to land was a UK reg aircraft
Take a look at this picture,
https://img.kaloo.ga/thumb?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesspiegel.de%2Fimages%2Feasyje t-zum-sommerflugplan-2018%2F21120162%2F2-format60051.jpg%3FinIsFirst%3Dtrue&md5val=3af17b86ea82f733cbf84a7032afc34b&key=b64ea239b82bebafaea7ace16435a194fec20ac3&method=fill&size=1848x1040

Easyjet Europe,
OE-IZQ
cant see any UK reg on that plane.

[tubby linton]

Air traffic at Tegel when the wall was still up was all done by french controllers with american (USAF) doing the enroute .

[txl]

That's another plane at Tegel. The one that landed first today was G-UZHF, see these pics for reference (https://www.aerotelegraph.com/erste-landungen-ber-eroeffnung-berlin-hat-seinen-neuen-flughafen).

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x481/g_uzhf_083a69be5526afaed525bac888a817c8c8e6c056.jpg

[lsh]

inbalance

Well, I landed on it in 2014 (possibly 2013??) regularly, using ATR.
We were flying freight.
I believe it was for political / business reasons, so it could then be said that BER had opened.

[OldLurker]

Um, how did that condor A320 get there? Must have landed before it took off, surely? Therefore, before the pegasus 737?

[inbalance]

The condor landed on the north runway and that belonged, until today, to berlin Schönefeld airport.

[iamkosmonaut]

txl

Where did you get this information from if I may ask? When I spoke to the Press Lady in charge at Tegel 3ish months ago, there was substantial interest/plans that the Transport Museum was going to take over the Boeing. As for the interiors, despite having ventilation shafts installed - everything inside is covered in mold and unsalvageable - though I hadnt heard or seen images re:the interiors being stolen.

[txl]

iamkosmonaut, didn't say that they cleaned out the whole thing, but some stuff has gone missing over the years.

The info pertaining to the plane being scrapped is from a recent article (a week ago) in Berliner Morgenpost quoted by Aero Telegraph:


«Die Boeing 707 im Außenbereich von Tegel wird im Laufe des kommenden Jahres zerlegt und verwertet», erklärte eine Sprecherin des Museums der Morgenpost.
"The Boeing 707 at Tegel will be chopped and recycled over the course of the next year", a museum spokeswoman said.


Also confirmed by local tv news a couple of days ago. They tried to do salvage the thing, but apparently couldn't make it work.

[Less Hair]

It's not a Lufthansa airframe. During the wall it flew in, N-registered, as a political reminder that Lufthansa had some interest in going to Berlin. It had been some strange Boeing "gift" to Lufthansa. The livery used to be Lufthansa but not true to the original.

[Jack D]

Does anyone remember the female ATC tower controller at TXL , possibly late 80,s early 90,s with the incredible sexy voice ? A sort of breathless Marlene Dietrich , but better.

[txl]

That's the second time I'm reading about that sexy ATC controller in a TXL related thread after lederhosen mentioned it here (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10790156). She must have left quite an impression. :}

[Jack D]

Yes she certainly did ! I never took the the time to visit the tower during her shift as was possible in those days.
Probably preferred not to shatter the illusion, although one never knows ?

[Loose rivets]

I thought it was Tempelhof that had the underground aircraft manufacturing workshops. Many floors of them. However, I've just read a long item and that was not mentioned.

[atakacs]

What was / is in the flooded Tempelhof basements is anyone's guess and we will probably never know.
As for TXL I am also one of those regretting it. It was a truly unique place with definite drawbacks but also incredibly convenient.
Just wondering - is Easyjet not a LCC anymore :) ? I understand they are operating from "BER proper", not T5 ... ?

[DaveReidUK]

Less Hair

It's a rare 707-400 (Conway-engined), originally delivered to El Al, though Lufthansa has another example preserved at Hamburg so I can't see this one escaping its fate.

[Less Hair]

Rare or not. It has never been some Lufthansa aircraft. It's totally run down having been used for fire brigade and police training.
I you want to pick it up for free just give them a call.

[txl]

Just wondering - is Easyjet not a LCC anymore :) ? I understand they are operating from "BER proper", not T5 ... ?

Easyjet took over most of Air Berlin's destinations from TXL. They had 22 aircraft stationed at TXL and 12 at SXF. Due to the pandemic, they cut that to 18 aircraft. Still, Easyjet is considered important for BER and allowed to play with the legacy carriers at T1. BER plays an important role for their European network, they say.

[Less Hair]

It remains to be seen what U2's future role can be. For the time being LH group, that almost ignores Berlin as it already has too many hubs elsewhere, is now twice as big as the next player.

[WHBM]

Contrary to much belief by journalists, BER is not a new airport, just an expansion of the Schonefeld site, so I don't quite get this "first landing". The north runway is the old Schonefeld main runway. In fact the new BER terminal is notably closer to that runway than the old Schonefeld terminal, which is rather a dogleg of a taxy away.

The new south runway also seems less convenient to the new terminal than the old Schonefeld runway, with a lengthy taxy to the west end (a German airport feature, though not as extreme as the northern runway at Frankfurt), so I suspect there will be many requests to use the old one anyway as much as possible.

[Less Hair]

Legally you are correct however Schönefeld's terminal had been intended to be closed and torn down for some new government VIP area and hangar space until recently. Now they keep on using it as separate "BER Terminal 5" for Ryanair and others.

Today's BER northern runway had been Schönefeld's former southern runway but it has been rebuilt since from scratch being a part of BER. One of the earliest parts being completed. Like the new BER tower that has been operating for years having met the original schedule.

[WHBM]

The old northern runway at Schonefeld would have been a marginally useful addition to a key national airport, especially in snowy conditions (like Helsinki has three, so they can always keep one going in rotation). Quite why it was actually dug up and returned to grassland is not apparent. One result was that Schonefeld was reduced to a single runway airport. When it was reconstructed for the new arrangement, the new BER southern runway was brought into use, in 2015 I read, so quite how we can have a "first landing" when both the BER runways have been in use for years, in varying combinations, is not apparent. I'll put it down to something lost in translation. Although calling the old Schonefeld terminal the "new" BER Terminal 5 is notably being economical with the truth.

I haven't seen how the S-Bahn train now is organised with the split between terminal areas with separate stations. The frequent S-Bahn from Schonefeld station direct to the cross-city east-west line with all its stations through the city was notably more convenient than any transport option Tegel offered.

[Less Hair]

Legally the southern runway will start ops on November 4. What we see now -and have seen in the past- is special permit traffic. This is why the parallel landing opening on Saturday had to be cancelled due to IMC finally.

[BEA 71]

Just being curious I checked today´s departures since 6 a.m.. About 90% are EasyJet and Ryanair, some Wizz, but no Lufthansa flight. May be this is the direction BER is going. No doubt this is going to change in the days to come. Not all can be blamed to Convid-19, it looks like there is a tendency.

[Denti]

There is a changeover period ending on November 8th. I believe Lufthansa Group switches on the 7th.

[Less Hair]

The final flight at Tegel is a special flight by Air France on November 8th. After that it's kept on idle standby for six more months and then closed. Except for Luftwaffe helicopters that is.

[txl]

I really don't get the "first touchdown was years ago" nitpicking here. While that might physically be the same runway, those flights were going to SXF. Same goes for the southern runway, which was in use on a special permit for a short time only while the northern runway was being redone. Yesterday's LH & EZY flights were the first two destined for BER ever.

And SXF Nordbahn had been closed and partly demolished in 2007 because they build an Autobahn through there.

[737 Jockey]

LCC’s still flying from :mad: old ‘Terminal 5’ - what a dump.

[Less Hair]

T5 is not that bad. Two S-Bahn stops closer to downtown east and cheaper handling. Given, ugly DDR style, small and not comfortable. Like the very opposite to Changi.

[WHBM]

I really don't get the "first touchdown was years ago" nitpicking here. While that might physically be the same runway, those flights were going to SXF.
Well, sorry, but I feel the nitpicking is pretending it's a new airport when it patently isn't. Everyone on Ryanair into BER is, it seems, landing on the same runway and going through the same terminal as ever. Now Manchester (just to take one of many examples) built a new runway, a new terminal, and a new rail station, and without all the construction snafu. But they didn't pretend it was a completely new airport.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Why Terminal 5? Are there 4 more?

[ara01jbb]

Deliberately numbered that way to emphasise its distance from the new terminals, and to avoid passengers mistaking which station to take a train to.

[LTNman]

This is the best time to open with Covid around, as it will allow a gradual buildup of flights over many years rather than a disastrous first day of lost luggage and long delays.

[Less Hair]

They want to expand BER with terminals 3 and 4 whenever there is more traffic to the south. This is why SXF in the north got numbered T5.
BER T2 is already completed but not open yet due to lack of traffic.
What was finally opened now with big fanfare is just BER T1.

[dixi188]

Why are there so many remote stands? With a clean sheet of paper for a new terminal I would have thought a tunnel linked satellite would have made sense.
Do the bus drivers union have a lot of power in this part of the world?

[Less Hair]

The huge apron area (still being expanded as we speak) is meant to be used for up to two planned satellites. But they "forgot" to build the tunnel or bridge needed and prefer some cheapo apron level passageway now - in case they still build those satellites one day.

[procede]

Quite why it was actually dug up and returned to grassland is not apparent.

I can see two reasons:
1 - To build the access road to the terminal, without needing an (expensive) tunnel.
2 - Noise and safety. Bohnsdorf is/was very close to the landing threshold.

[Lord Bracken]

Less Hair

The original plan was to have a LHR-style "toast rack" with underground people mover, from the latest Masterplan documents the closest satellite will be joined to the main terminal effectively creating two 'cul de sac' arrangements of gates north and south. There is also a T3 planned with building in the central Airport City area and then a new pier directly north, parallel with the existing north pier.

https://www.breakingtravelnews.com/images/uploads/deals/Masterplan-BER-2040.jpg

[Less Hair]

It's always a bad choice to voluntarily cut through aprons of busy airports blocking taxi routes.

[foxcharliep2]

Well, sorry, but I feel the nitpicking is pretending it's a new airport when it patently isn't. Everyone on Ryanair into BER is, it seems, landing on the same runway and going through the same terminal as ever.

Agree with you - and nitpicking here myself : Berlin is not your average Germany ... :-)

[atakacs]

From the "masterplan" posted above I don't see any connection between T5 and the new T1. Is there a way to get from one to the other, ideally airside ?

[TheAirMission]

Yes there is the S-bahn city train that heads out of BER west and swings around the threshold of 07L to T5, one stop in between. Takes about 8 minutes

[Less Hair]

And there is a shuttle bus line as well.

[Magellan]

Are there any plans for the B707 that has been sitting in the grass at TXL for many years? It has a very interesting history. https://digitalcosmonaut.com/2016/berlin-tegel-abandoned-boeing-707/
Sad to see that aircraft being left to rot away for so long, whereas Leila Khaled has not.:bored:

It's only a month or so ago that she was guest speaker at an event organised by Leeds University's Palestine Solidarity Group.

Perhaps Group members, sentimentalists that they are, could be tapped for a few bob to help with the restoration of an aircraft that did so much to enable Khaled tour the international lecture circuit, all these years later.

[thethirdfall]

From the "masterplan" posted above I don't see any connection between T5 and the new T1. Is there a way to get from one to the other, ideally airside ?

This is one of the fundamental problems: no, there isn't an airside connection, only the S-Bahn train between them - which is paid for, even between the two terminals! Having said that, there won't be much in the way of transit anyway, so perhaps it's not much of an issue.

IMO, I think it was a mistake to rename SXF to T5 BER. It would have been much more sensible to keep it as a separately named airport, given how poor T5 will be in comparison to T1/T2. It's also confusing given that T5 is really two different terminals (I know, technically four) that are only connected airside, not landside, and I wonder if they won't take the time to change some things about how it operates. One major issue with T5 as it stands is that the non-Schengen gates are very, very barren and that queues can be unbearable in Terminal D arrivals if several non-Schengen flights arrive at once.

[WHBM]

It seems the S-Bahn line S9 to the city now starts and runs west from the new terminal, then loops round the west end of the runway and comes back through the old station at the old terminal/T5, thence onwards. I doubt there will be much transit traffic between the two terminals; more likely to be those who have initially gone to the wrong one ! It's every 10 minutes. The S-Bahn was always the most convenient way from Schonefeld into the city, stopping at all the points on the east-west line. Given the ticket system in Berlin, with no barriers and just periodic inspections on the train with fines, the most effective way to make this a free transfer is just arrange for tickets not to be inspected between the two terminals and tell transfer passengers just to get on.

I find there's also new service FEX (Flughafen Express, a polyglot mix of languages, surely it should be FSZ, Flughafen Schnellzug), with dedicated trains, which leaves the new terminal station in the opposite direction, going east, doesn't serve the old one, joins the S9 route after a distance, but then loops right round the north side of the city on the old bypass "Ring" tracks, where it makes a couple of stops, and ends up coming into the main station, the Hauptbahnhof, from the north. It apparently runs only every 30 minutes. I don't know if it charges a premium fare like the equivalent one in Vienna does, which is commonly completely empty, everyone going on the more frequent regular train, but it seems a similar style operation. Described as the fastest way to "the centre", though where the new city main station is located is about the bleakest and furthest-from-everything point in central Berlin. The S9 looks like a much more practical and generally faster way to your city destination - and for the terminal transfer.

[Lord Bracken]

If you read this article you’ll see that the best way from BER into Berlin is to take the “regular” train which is a combination of standard Intercity services, regional services and the new FEX service which are timetabled to give a rough 15 minute frequency through the day. Despite the IC and FEX labelling, all services are included in the standard city pricing so will cost €3.60 each way, same as the S-Bahn. But the normal trains take 27-35 minutes and the S9 will take almost an hour.

https://www.europebyrail.eu/berlin-airport-opening-ber/

[Gipsy Queen]

Sorry to see TXL going. Have a few memories of there when flying CIA.

[atakacs]

And now there is apparently a plan to close T5 in March, I guess to the dismay of the LCC...

[Less Hair]

This way they can move them into the new terminal building getting shops and restaurants closer to break even. Rumors claim they even want to close the new southern runway for the time being due to lack of traffic.

[Copenhagen]

With German air traffic at 8% of what it was this week last year, i'm surprised that T5 hasn't closed already. It's clear that between now and Easter, barring Christmas week, this is as busy as its going to get.

[Less Hair]

They seem to take quite long to practically move after deciding. Said to be about shops and renters needing to get compensation for the emptied place.
It feels like the german government assumes the situation might not normalize before Easter traffic maybe later again. I still hope for summer travel 21.
At least the MAX will be back. BER desperately needs FR.

[Denti]

Starting on April 1st (no, not a joke) BER will switch each month between the north and south runway being in use until traffic increases enough that both have to be used. Since the north one was exclusively in use for the last few months they want to spread the joy around a bit ;)

[Less Hair]

Wasn't there some legal requirement related to the southern runway being in "permanent use" before Tegel can finally (legally) be given up forever? The month of may might be the decision time when they have to formally meet this requirement.

[Denti]

Hmm, considering Tegel is now a (AstraZeneca) vaccination center and not an airport anymore might make that point moot. But you might be right, i honestly don't know.

[Less Hair]

Tegel is still sort of kept legally mothballed although at reduced practical readiness compared to what had been initially planned. This is set to change this spring. Only then it will finally legally close.

That is except for the military helicopter base at Tegel North. This will stay and be operating for many years to come. But Luftwaffe will not use any Tegel runways anymore and operate only helicopters from the huge north apron.

[BEA 71]

As far as the government is concerned, I suspect they know more than the are willing to tell us. They deliver the bad news slice-wise. By pure luck I have been given my first Covid 19 vaccination a few days ago, second to follow on 23 June. Which means, I am in a waiting position for another three months. Rather than cancelling a flight to Athens lately, I rebooked it to the end of September. Only God knows if that works. Plan a trip with my family later this year, it is all put on hold because of all the uncertainty. I doubt, very much, if air travel will run as normal again in the foreseeable future. Summer 21 would be a dream, not only for the customers, but also for the pilots and cabin staff who eagerly wait to go back to work. In my opinion safe air travel - and planning - will be back, once the majority of people have been vaccinated,
and, as proof, present their good old yellow WHO vaccination pass on arrival. Its like going back more than 50 years, when the yellow booklet was mandatory for world wide travel, and when during transit at Bombay the health officer walked through cabin, a can with disinfection spray in each hand. There are relatively simple solutions, but everything needs to be related at a " app ", and gets more complicated.

[Denti]

Well, the good old yellow pass was apparently only widely used in very few countries, Germany being one of them.

Therefore, there will be a digital Covid vaccination passport from the EU, there is already one from IATA and so on. But yes, a swift vaccination effort can yield substantial revival of air traffic, as already visible in the USA and domestically in China (back to 100% pre-crisis level since October). There is a lot of pent up demand for vacations outside of your own home, and actually a lot of pent up spending as well, as people could not spend their money during the pandemic.

[Pistonprop]

Denti, I don't know about other countries but in The Netherlands a great many of the Dutch spent that pent up money on home renovations. Businesses involved in that type of work have reported unprecedented demand over the past year.

[atakacs]

Any chance not to turn this thread into a vaccine passport one !
Speaking of BER it would seem that T5 is completely shut down. Any further refurbishment ongoing ? Will it be mothballed until better times? What are the landing fees for a LLC at the moment?

[zambonidriver]

Well finally just been twice through the infamous new BER airport that is now finally operating.

I muss say I did not have my hopes very high and was not disappointed.

The place is huge and you have to walk (without almost any active assistance) 2km from car rental return to your boarding gate (really !). And, despite the place being massive, the gates themselves are tiny and overcrowded when disembarking and embarking a 320 (I’m sure a 380 is out of the question anyway but they might have larger gates for long haul flights ?). Even the old T5 had separate route for this and provided for better usability. Amazing. To the point that I hope they will indeed reopen said T5 for LLCs… Anyone know if this is still planed ?

And don’t get me started abut Tegel, where you could have the taxi literally drop you 20 meters from your boarding gate. Yes it had many quirks but still will remain forever the most efficient airport I ever travelled to. But I understand that Berlin needed a “trophy” airport, which, IMHO, it did not get, certainly not for the insane price they spent.

Any feedback from airside ? Is it working better than previous places ?

[GLCYZ]

As crew it’s not great either. Staff/crew search is cramped and feels like an afterthought, and cabling to equipment is hidden under plastic humps in the floor which are a trip hazard.

Non-Schengen passport control is down at ramp level with access via an unlit staircase, which is fun with luggage. Crews are then driven to their aircraft, which is pretty common in German airports.

Signage is generally poor, and many passengers board late due to delays at security or difficulty finding their gate.

At TXL crew were dropped off at a dedicated security search entrance, then passports were checked either in the same building or an office round the corner before being driven to the aircraft with no need to battle through the terminal. Much easier!

[zambonidriver]

Yes I have indeed noted that signage is generally poor. Even the roadsigns are not illuminated at night, and most things are displayed through symbols only. I defy anyone to find the car rental return location on a rainy night without prior knowledge !

All in all I am really not impressed - not seeing much improvement over “old” SXF (again TXL was in a different realm, jsut as THF), except maybe being able to take the S-Bahn without leaving the main building (which could have been done with the old terminal too, and the way they achieved it via this massive loop is just baffling) and being able to board without a bus ride, which was indeed uncomfortable at times. But for me it certainly doesn’t outweight the convenience & practicality of previous facilities.

I’m asking again - is T5 to be reopened ? Are LCC paying a lower airport fee yet using the new terminals ? Otherwise they might feel played…

[Jet Set Willie]

Its shocking. They haven't got a grip on the passport control and don't get me started on swiss port. That lot couldn't organise an octoberfest in a major barvarian town! No idea how to dispatch an aircraft and massively short on staff.

[Denti]

Swissport took over easyJet at the beginning of October and apparently have not managed to hire enough staff for that. Not surprising, as apparently Alpine switched mainly to lower their cost and that of course means Swissport is unable to offer competitive conditions, especially with low unemployment and a huge Tesla factory right next door hiring at very high salaries. in the beginning Swissport flew in staff from all around europe, but that is not sustainable and has since ceased, leading to overworked, undertrained and in general very unimpressive handling personnel and performance.