Flying for free to build hours

[nigelsomers]

Wasn't sure where to put this but myself and 13 of us have just finished our training pre-lockdown. We have approached almost all GA operators up north offering to fly for free. Our group is desperate to get work and we already have crippling debt of around 120k each.
Thoughts on offering to fly for free? We are willing to fly for free for about 4-6 months to get some hours.
Apparently more and more graduate pilots are offering to fly for free these days. I guess we feel like we have no other choice or we have to study something else and incur more student debt.

[Ragnor]

Hi BNEA320


Not the late BNEA320.

Tail Wheel

[ROH111]

BNEA320 you need to get out more.

[das Uber Soldat]

Obvious troll is obvious. Mate how **** must your life be to waste it pulling this nonsense?

​

[Blueskymine]

Wouldn’t surprise me if this were true to be honest. There would be a lot of desperate pilots out there right now.
The most vulnerable would be those starting out.

From my experience up north, those who offered their services for free, were usually blacklisted. Remember the pilot who does the hiring in the entry level jobs is usually someone who’s only been there themselves for a few years and is still trying to climb the next rung of the ladder.

No one likes a scab.

[dr dre]

Wasn't sure where to put this but myself and 13 of us have just finished our training pre-lockdown. We have approached almost all GA operators up north offering to fly for free. Our group is desperate to get work and we already have crippling debt of around 120k each.
Thoughts on offering to fly for free? We are willing to fly for free for about 4-6 months to get some hours.
Apparently more and more graduate pilots are offering to fly for free these days. I guess we feel like we have no other choice or we have to study something else and incur more student debt.

There’s pilots out there with years of experience with crippling mortgage debts of $500-800k who are stacking shelves on a supermarket or holding traffic control signs. You aren’t special.

Fly for free is performing work for free which is illegal. Your name will be very quickly known amongst the aviation community and will become mud. Don’t do it.

The last time there was a lot of pilots offering to work for free was before social media was ubiquitous. Walk into one charter company saying you’ll work for free, and by day’s end your name will be splashed across chat groups read by pilots from every operator in the state or even country.

Just find alternative employment for a period, and when aviation picks up (it will pick up) find legitimate employment.

[getaway]

have spoken to quite a few other pilots about starting an airline & obviously they would not be paid anything, just taking a share of profits. If no pay is required for crews there goes one big impediment to start up costs. Could easily start just chartering off many airlines who have parked aircraft.

Make sense. 1000s of pilots looking for work.

Big question is where would they fly to ?

[Clare Prop]

So the harsh reality of the "free flying training paid for by the government" comes home to roost, eh? I doubt there any banks dishing out that kind of money.

These people have been conned by a few unscrupulous operators who have used the VET loans to swindle people. Taxpayers are already paying dearly enough for this and naivete and bad decisions of the suckers who fell for it.

Maybe there's a bright side, maybe these people are setting a trap for those employers who need to be shut down by Fair Work Australia .

[rcoight]

There’s pilots out there with years of experience with crippling mortgage debts of $500-800k who are stacking shelves on a supermarket or holding traffic control signs. You aren’t special.

Fly for free is performing work for free which is illegal. Your name will be very quickly known amongst the aviation community and will become mud. Don’t do it.

The last time there was a lot of pilots offering to work for free was before social media was ubiquitous. Walk into one charter company saying you’ll work for free, and by day’s end your name will be splashed across chat groups read by pilots from every operator in the state or even country.

Just find alternative employment for a period, and when aviation picks up (it will pick up) find legitimate employment.


Well said. Spot on.

[xaos03]

As much as there is trolls out there, I hate to think there may be a legitimate student desperate to make the break into the industry who has written this post.

I agree with all that’s been said. Don’t do it.
If you’re flying and working, you deserve to be paid. If an operator works you flying or otherwise, and doesn’t pay you they need to be held accountable and are simply a bunch of crooks.
They’re getting paid by whoever you’re flying. If they can’t afford to pay wages they should fly their flights themselves or call it quits, pandemic or not. The worst part is that it’s happening and some operators are using COVID as an excuse to undercut and work their pilots harder and paying them less.

Things will pick up again. There’s nothing wrong with learning a trade. Or finding another job for a few years.

[Pinky the pilot]

To fly for free is performing work for free which is illegal. Your name will be very quickly known amongst the aviation community and will become mud. Don’t do it.

Pretty much what my old Instructor (the late Tony K) used to say....well more like thundered actually.

"Once you have your Commercial Licence you will never work for nothing..." he would roar on occasion.:ooh:
He added that for those who did, word generally got around and they found themselves shunned by others.

[Squawk7700]

How exactly is a $120k vet fee-help debt crippling?

[tail wheel]

Things to think about:

Work unpaid for a sleazy operator will contribute to putting a legitimate operator and paid honest plots out of work.
No workers compensation insurance no cover for injuries at work.
In the event of an accident I may be liable for the aircraft damage, other property damage and injuries to other people.
Living with the reputation you will get.

And that is just the beginning of your woes.

Your friend in the same position that posted previously should also read this thread.

Do you have a career or profession you can fall back on until flying starts again?

[Seabreeze]

There is plenty of work out there, picking fruit for example. Mangos right now I think. Oh... but it is outside in the hot sun, backbreaking, hard to get to, and not so well paid, and it seems far too unpleasant for many of mother's special and entitled boys and girls.

I worked as a labourer as many did, working on a shovel for a full 8 hours a day, 7 dpw to earn my $$ for flying training. Just because you got a loan doesn't make you special.

Be proud and earn your bl**dy living by working, even if it is hard, hot, cold and/or dirty work. Don't be a scab, or you may well suffer a future being totally unemployable in aviation as others have said.

You may have to put in a few hard years, but that's life.

SB

[SIUYA]

have spoken to quite a few other pilots about starting an airline

:eek: Really? Have you actually had a look at what's involved?

Are you and your colleagues familiar with the Civil Aviation Act, in particular S28? And also the CASA the AOC process?

obviously they [the pilots] would not be paid anything, just taking a share of profits

:confused: If the big question at the moment is where would your airline fly to, then it's probably putting the cart before the horse at this point to talk about sharing profits I think.

I guess all that's left to say is.....GOOD LUCK because you and your mates are really going to need lots of it! :ok:

[neville_nobody]

Despite all the bravado here about not flying for free unfortunately it has been around forever. Plenty of current airline pilots have flown for free or better still paid to fly in commercial operations. :mad:

The reality has always been how do you get experience when all you get is a door slammed in your face? This problem has always been around and I don't see any real viable solution. Your only option is to work for free or to work in another industry and fly privately until you have enough experience that someone will pay you.

[Clare Prop]

The con is when the flying schools trick people into thinking that they will be employable with the minimum command hours, then max out the VET loans with a load of worthless dual training. The admin fees these people pay on the top of the loan could get them another 100 hours in command and much more employable, but then they would actually have to get out and earn the money to pay for it.

Instead of conning students the schools should help students bridge the gap between CPL and being employable, so that we don't end up with people like the OP suddenly wondering what happened when the reality of a massive loan and no chance of work hits them and then going out wanting to white-ant the rest of us.

[JRK]

I live close to an AD which houses many flight schools. And since the end of the first wave they've been flying like mad: every day, up to 10 acft in the area at a time.

As I look up, I can't help but wonder: what are those students possibly thinking? Or, more accurately, what kind of sweet songs do these flight schools sing to them...

[Checkboard]

A good pilot is one with the integrity and courage to say “no” under pressure.

“No”, I won’t risk my passenger’s lives.
“No” I won’t bust the minima to get in.
“No” I won’t fly that unserviceable aircraft.


A pilot offering to fly for free is a pilot displaying a distinct lack of that required character. Makes them a bad pilot, regardless of experience or skill.

[neville_nobody]

A pilot offering to fly for free is a pilot displaying a distinct lack of that required character. Makes them a bad pilot, regardless of experience or skill.

Well it makes them a permanently unemployed pilot, not sure it shows a lack of character. And no I never paid to fly or flew for free but I wouldn't necessarily black ball someone who did. Great to take a stand but what are you supposed to do to get hours just to get in the game?? Not everyone has family money, makes 100K a year in another industry, has a father in the RFDS or has family friend who owns a charter business.

[Black Maria]

Directed very generally at those in the position of a newly minted CPL etc..,employment will return so do t give up hope. Take it onboard as an expected road bump in the cycle of Aviation.

Undertake a trade, another field and when Aviation predictably picks up get back in...and for the next SARS, COVID etc etc. you will have some extra skills to survive.

History shows that perseverance rather than selling your soul will see you make it.

[Checkboard]

what are you supposed to do to get hours just to get in the game??
What everyone has done since day one in aviation - it's not a new question.

[zanthrus]

Flying for free.

Simple. Don't do it!

You are screwing yourself.

You are screwing your mates.

You are screwing the industry for the future.


DON'T DO IT!!!!!

[JOSHUA]

Despite all the bravado here about not flying for free unfortunately it has been around forever. Plenty of current airline pilots have flown for free or better still paid to fly in commercial operations. :mad:

The reality has always been how do you get experience when all you get is a door slammed in your face? This problem has always been around and I don't see any real viable solution. Your only option is to work for free or to work in another industry and fly privately until you have enough experience that someone will pay you.

Absolute twaddle! I qualified as 9/11 happened, no flying jobs. Not once did I consider offering to fly for free though. I hunted down a job in flight ops of a small airline, spent a year getting to know people and decision makers - when they needed some more pilots, I was front of the queue and paid.

Don’t offer to fly for free, it does nobody any favours and in my mind, undermines any self respect for yourself

[nigelsomers]

Well I am just trying to get into the industry and start paying off my VET fee debt. I'm not sure what the expectation is (i.e fly for free?) because I haven't had a job as a pilot yet. Very disheartening given the amount of money invested in this...

[Global Aviator]

From GA to airlines it is a growing problem and companies will use Covid to forever bastardise conditions.

Pre Covid it was bad enough with the likes of VietJet P2F. Have a look at this forum - https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-45

All you can do is stand true and follow your beliefs, however there are going to be thousands that will climb over anything, get up the greasy pole and do anything. I cannot think of any airline where I know people that this isn't happening. Very sad.

Tough times however it will get better! Surely it cannot get any worse!

As for hour building if you have a large group like you do, get a bit of cost sharing happening, do a lap of Oz. There are plenty of non aviation jobs out there if your willing to work. I only heard recently Broome is a hotspot for any employment with accommodation thrown in, the added bonus with that is that you are where lots of flying happens.

Good luck and do not sell your soul.

[Roj approved]

Well I am just trying to get into the industry and start paying off my VET fee debt.

Well, call me stupid, but I’m not sure how you are going to be able to pay your VET fee debt if you are flying for free????

And from the VET website:

Repayments are taken out of what you earn through the tax system.
You won’t need to make repayments until you are earning more than $51,957 a year. This is called the repayment threshold.

There is no interest charged on HELP debts

So, if I am understanding you, you want to get some experience, so you can get a paying job so you can start paying off your “crippling” VET debt which you don’t need to pay off until you earn +$51k pa and it will be automatically deducted from your salary?

VET is the cheapest money you will ever get, forget about it.

What you are really wanting to know, is: How do I get some experience so I can kick off my career?

[Lead Balloon]

Despite all the bravado here about not flying for free unfortunately it has been around forever. Plenty of current airline pilots have flown for free or better still paid to fly in commercial operations. ...I wouldn’t be surprised if Virgin 3.0 will attempt to get pilots to ‘volunteer’ to pay Virgin to fly for Virgin, as a demonstration of the pilot’s commitment to making the carrier viable in the longer term. That commitment will be rewarded ‘later’...

[neville_nobody]

Absolute twaddle! I qualified as 9/11 happened, no flying jobs. Not once did I consider offering to fly for free though. I hunted down a job in flight ops of a small airline, spent a year getting to know people and decision makers - when they needed some more pilots, I was front of the queue and paid.

Don’t offer to fly for free, it does nobody any favours and in my mind, undermines any self respect for yourself

In Australia around that time the guy at the front of queue would have had 10000 hours not someone in the back office with a bare CPL and maybe 200. You would have been told to go off and get some experience.

[lucille]

Where does anyone start these days? You hardly see GA in the bush except for sightseeing tourist operations.

In the ‘70s there were lots of thriving VFR SE charter operations across the country. Admittedly, some were pretty grubby cost cutters with dodgy equipment but they did pay. The glorious old GA award paid less than a labourer.

Sigh...ahh the good old days...Not!

[Blueskymine]

It’s always been the same. In fact even when aviation and Ga was booming, you could always shake a tree up north and dozens of pilots would hit the deck.

We poured beers, worked for the council, drove taxis, strapped buses to our back and kept pestering the local operators until we got a start.

I’ve always said those who stuck with it always got to where they wanted to be in the end. The ones who didn’t, didn’t.

An interesting observation after years in the game is the expats. They made good money and progressed quickly. However any bump in the road and they lose their seat. Even the rock solid jobs now like air japan and the big 3 are done.

Meanwhile anyone in ‘that group’ that wants to stay still has a seat. At this stage.

My advice, head up north when you can. Find a spot where you can financially survive, get a job, keep pestering the operators and hanging around until they are forced to give you a job. Work ops, or the phones if you can. Help out on the line. Wash planes, sweep hangars. Learn the engineering side by lending a hand on the tools.

Good luck :)

[3 Holer]

The fish are biting well today, must be the nice weather.

Nigel you are loaded Mate. $120K in debt and you can afford 6 months with no income ???? I say TROLL or not enough to do and you are taking it out on your keyboard !!!:= 320, sure that ain't YOU?

[getaway]

:eek: Really? Have you actually had a look at what's involved?

Are you and your colleagues familiar with the Civil Aviation Act, in particular S28? And also the CASA the AOC process?



:confused: If the big question at the moment is where would your airline fly to, then it's probably putting the cart before the horse at this point to talk about sharing profits I think.

I guess all that's left to say is.....GOOD LUCK because you and your mates are really going to need lots of it! :ok:
no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

There is great demand in for example, in school holidays, that existing airlines can't cater for.

[brokenagain]

no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

There is great demand in for example, in school holidays, that existing airlines can't cater for.

It’s good to see that our resident travel agent is also an expert on how to run an airline. If it wasn’t for your FB page showing that in fact you are a real person, I’d think that your many identities are in fact a very elaborate troll.

[Lead Balloon]

no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

There is great demand in for example, in school holidays, that existing airlines can't cater for.So these pilots will be flying the aircraft of an existing airline under the AOC of an existing airline to cater for demand that isn’t being catered for by the existing airlines? Takes a special kind of genius to come up with that plan.

[SIUYA]

getaway,

no aoc needed if airline already has one. Think outside the box. Not a true charter or lease of an aircraft but flying an aircraft of an existing airline, that has aircraft parked, can't sell them for anything worthwhile.

That's not what you were originally proposing. :=

Let me refresh your memory........you said:

have spoken to quite a few other pilots about starting an airline & obviously they would not be paid anything, just taking a share of profits.

So which one is it? :confused:

The way I'm seeing it is you want to start an airline with your mates, work for free, and fly aircraft of an existing airline. Good luck, but I really reckon you're going to have a very hard time getting CASA to...Think outside the box... to accept that proposal.

As LB says, it takes a special kind of genius to come up with that plan. :ok:

[getaway]

It’s good to see that our resident travel agent is also an expert on how to run an airline. If it wasn’t for your FB page showing that in fact you are a real person, I’d think that your many identities are in fact a very elaborate troll.it's not running an airline. A virtual airline is much simpler. You just have to think outside the box.

Not sure why you can't grasp this very simple concept.

It's not rocket science.

Hard part is finding routes big boys don't want to do, as too thin or big boys scared.

This is where tour operators come in.

In EU, charters are huge, run by tour operators.



There are today 1000s of pilots, who will never ever fly aircraft again.

There are 1000s of aircraft parked. Many will be parked for years or forever.

An airline within an airline could work with the difference being the pilots are not paid a salary, they are paid a % of profits, they are "owners".

If a traditional airline makes no profit, they fold.

Think of ACMI without the C.

Imagine a charter type operation, with crew shareholders.

Worst case scenario, they make nothing, but keep their currency & get some hours up. Best case scenario, they make more than they would have working for Rex, Virgin Mark 2 etc.

Why do many airlines try to get you to book accom, car rental etc. through them ? Because sometimes, there's more money in that, than the airfare component, but you need to fly there to do the accom/car etc.

eg. right now, there are some incredibly cheap deals on accom almost everywhere, but public has to get there to take advantage of them.

[poteroo]

The con is when the flying schools trick people into thinking that they will be employable with the minimum command hours, then max out the VET loans with a load of worthless dual training. The admin fees these people pay on the top of the loan could get them another 100 hours in command and much more employable, but then they would actually have to get out and earn the money to pay for it.

Instead of conning students the schools should help students bridge the gap between CPL and being employable, so that we don't end up with people like the OP suddenly wondering what happened when the reality of a massive loan and no chance of work hits them and then going out wanting to white-ant the rest of us.


Agreed. But think of the bigger picture here: aviation VET loans are only a small part of the now $70b loans bill that our gullible governments have built up over the last few years. Most of it will never be paid back because the recipients have done a runner overseas, can't get that prized top level job that they 'deserve', or they will cleverly remain on or below the repayment threshold for so long that the debt will eventually be written off by Treasury. There are thousands of tertiary qualified people who have achieved it on the VET system, but their degrees are not worth the paper they're printed on. They were always going to have trouble using said degree to get a job in their chosen industry because the market was already flooded. Not just the sausage factory flying schools told porky pies: most of our top tertiary institutions did too. It's tough out there, but as the saying goes...... when the going gets tough - the tough get going.

[Lead Balloon]

it's not running an airline. A virtual airline is much simpler. You just have to think outside the box.

Not sure why you can't grasp this very simple concept.

It's not rocket science.

Hard part is finding routes big boys don't want to do, as too thin or big boys scared.

This is where tour operators come in.

In EU, charters are huge, run by tour operators.



There are today 1000s of pilots, who will never ever fly aircraft again.

There are 1000s of aircraft parked. Many will be parked for years or forever.

An airline within an airline could work with the difference being the pilots are not paid a salary, they are paid a % of profits, they are "owners".

If a traditional airline makes no profit, they fold.

Think of ACMI without the C.

Imagine a charter type operation, with crew shareholders.

Worst case scenario, they make nothing, but keep their currency & get some hours up. Best case scenario, they make more than they would have working for Rex, Virgin Mark 2 etc.

Why do many airlines try to get you to book accom, car rental etc. through them ? Because sometimes, there's more money in that, than the airfare component, but you need to fly there to do the accom/car etc.

eg. right now, there are some incredibly cheap deals on accom almost everywhere, but public has to get there to take advantage of them.
Now I get it! Great idea.

[LB walks backwards, slowly, while smiling and nodding but not making eye contact.]

[Flying Bear]

I own two companies in aviation that have been hard hit by COVID...

Even so, we have found a way to not put a single staff member off, in fact we recently needed to employ an extra one as a result of our team’s monster effort to keep us afloat.

That new pilot gets proper pay and conditions.

Our team continues to pull strongly together and for that I am truly grateful.

My point, for the avoidance of doubt, is that if you offer to work for free - you are cutting the throat of my team and destroying the chance for us to be there “on the other side”.

If I learn who you are, you will be blacklisted from opportunities with our companies, at least. I will make an effort to spread that sentiment to my industry peers.

Maybe that’s seen as trivial by the selfish or ignorant - but it’s a message that needs to be received loud and clear...,

[SIUYA]

getaway...

it's not running an airline. A virtual airline is much simpler. You just have to think outside the box.

OK, I'm trying really hard to think outside the box, and at this point it seems to me that if you are going to be running a virtual airline then I think that you will find that you are going to need an AOC ..... refer S.15.20 of the CASA AOC Handbook Volume 2 - Flying Operations.

And if that's the case then you need to understand S.28 of the Act, which at this point I'm not so sure that you do. :uhoh:

And that all means that you are going to have a fair bit of working capital right from the outset to get your virtual airline up and running, which presumably you and your mates understand?

Not sure why you can't grasp this very simple concept.

[nigelsomers]

Well, call me stupid, but I’m not sure how you are going to be able to pay your VET fee debt if you are flying for free????

And from the VET website:

Repayments are taken out of what you earn through the tax system.
You won’t need to make repayments until you are earning more than $51,957 a year. This is called the repayment threshold.

There is no interest charged on HELP debts

So, if I am understanding you, you want to get some experience, so you can get a paying job so you can start paying off your “crippling” VET debt which you don’t need to pay off until you earn +$51k pa and it will be automatically deducted from your salary?

VET is the cheapest money you will ever get, forget about it.

What you are really wanting to know, is: How do I get some experience so I can kick off my career?

Yeah just to kickstart a career. In the meantime, just applying with Centrelink for jobseeker until something comes up. Willing to do anything to be honest! But your right, I don't have to start paying any of it back until I earn over a certain limit. I just didn't know what the expectation of a new pilot is nowadays. Whether you need to do some work experience in a remote area on no income or minimal wage. Hence the question...

[nigelsomers]

Flying for free.

Simple. Don't do it!

You are screwing yourself.

You are screwing your mates.

You are screwing the industry for the future.


DON'T DO IT!!!!!

Okay... well thanks for that. Will take the average of the opinions and will run with that.

[brokenagain]

I just didn't know what the expectation of a new pilot is nowadays. Whether you need to do some work experience in a remote area on no income or minimal wage. Hence the question...

Surely you researched these things before setting out on the career?

Ps, don’t work for free. Even a prostitute gets paid.

[Anilv]

When aviation recovers there will be a lot of folks with new license in the queue.

How can you make yourself more attractive.

1. Build hours.. doesnt matter in what, 200hours in a light single will be 200 hours more than a lot of folks. Instructing for free hours may be an option depending on where you are.
2. Take up additional courses.. anything safety related is good, does not have to be aviation but should be recognized by national bodies. OSHA, work related safety, if anything these will help you give good answers in the interview in addition to giving the impression you're not sitting back and doing nothing. These course are usually provided at nominal costs.
3. If you have access to funds, a degree in aviation/aeronautics helps put you ahead of the pack.

I agree with the rest that offering to work for free is not good .. and you will be severely disadvantaged when it comes to the interview as there will likely be rated pilots looking for the same job. Good luck.

Anilv

[Jay Reid]

Hi guys so I qualified before lockdown and was wondering if anyone had any information on obtaining any unpaid overseas flying to build up some hours? Obviously right now I'm up to my eyeballs in debt (roughly 130k) I'm also no spring chicken (the hairline recession is beginning to scare away the opposite sex!) Haha so really I want to focus this period on obtaining some flying hours and it seems there's nothing to be found in the UK right now, I'm thinking of overseas opportunities where I could for instance be involved in flying livestock from places like the Far East and India, this would be of course 100% voluntary and unpaid if anyone has any info on whether there's an opportunity here to build hours or even if this is a good idea I'd appreciate it.

Thanks 👍

[neville_nobody]

I agree with the rest that offering to work for free is not good .. and you will be severely disadvantaged when it comes to the interview as there will likely be rated pilots looking for the same job.

That isn't my experience. People I knew who either paid for commercial flying or for flew for free raced through the industry pretty quickly and were in QF or Regionals or good paying GA jobs faster than anybody else. It's all well and good to take the moral high ground on this issue, but those who did it in the past seemed to benefit pretty well from it. I have never actually heard of anyone being blackballed but certainly knew of 3 operators who threatened it but noone ever followed through.

The reason for this is that essentially Aviation Recruitment at EVERY level is fundamentally a box ticking exercise. If you don't have the minimum requirements (whatever they are) you will never be able to go anywhere regardless of how many 'hard yards' you've done. The guy with 250 hours ME Command for free is always going to beat the GA hero who has been all around the NT and FNQ but zero twin time no matter what a good bloke he is. That's just how it is unfortunately. I met or worked with at least 5 guys that I can remember in my GA days who had flown alot of twin hours either privately or for free, and everyone bitched about them but they were the guys who got the job because they had the hours in the logbook.

[morno]

Surely you researched these things before setting out on the career?

Ps, don’t work for free. Even a prostitute gets paid.

Exactly.

Anyone who works for free is a f***ing scab who deserves to fail

[Clare Prop]

Hi guys so I qualified before lockdown and was wondering if anyone had any information on obtaining any unpaid overseas flying to build up some hours? Obviously right now I'm up to my eyeballs in debt (roughly 130k) I'm also no spring chicken (the hairline recession is beginning to scare away the opposite sex!) Haha so really I want to focus this period on obtaining some flying hours and it seems there's nothing to be found in the UK right now, I'm thinking of overseas opportunities where I could for instance be involved in flying livestock from places like the Far East and India, this would be of course 100% voluntary and unpaid if anyone has any info on whether there's an opportunity here to build hours or even if this is a good idea I'd appreciate it.

Thanks 👍
So you think people who do this sort of thing for a living should step aside so you can do it for free?

[rcoight]

I have to say getaways posts are so ridiculous they have to be a wind-up, surely.

Unfortunately, Neville nobody is quite correct though. At least in the past (who knows what will happen now).
I know a few pilots whose wealthy parents paid for them to get an endorsement and hours in an “airline” environment, and all of them went on to careers in the majors, while the rest of us scrubbers battled it out in GA.
I remember all those ads in Flying magazine offering x hundred hours in a turboprop for $40k or whatever.

The truth is some people have always been able to buy themselves a job in this industry.
Maybe that will change now?

[Clare Prop]

I doubt it. I still get people sending me resumes offering to work for nothing, or even offering to pay me to take them on; they go straight in the circular filing cabinet

[Brian304]

Hi guys so I qualified before lockdown and was wondering if anyone had any information on obtaining any unpaid overseas flying to build up some hours? Obviously right now I'm up to my eyeballs in debt (roughly 130k) I'm also no spring chicken (the hairline recession is beginning to scare away the opposite sex!) Haha so really I want to focus this period on obtaining some flying hours and it seems there's nothing to be found in the UK right now, I'm thinking of overseas opportunities where I could for instance be involved in flying livestock from places like the Far East and India, this would be of course 100% voluntary and unpaid if anyone has any info on whether there's an opportunity here to build hours or even if this is a good idea I'd appreciate it.

Thanks 👍

Don’t worry China will not take you on, CAAC stopped issuing CPL’s to foreigners from 2012. You basically have to have an ATPL in order to even step into the Chinese market for foreigners. Especially in these current conditions, the market is already saturated with local airline pilots only flying once or twice a week domestically.

Goodluck looking elsewhere, but I’m pretty sure companies will raise an eyebrow if you are wanting to work for free. You would probably be better off with those pay for rating & hour schemes, which is better than fly for free. Just my pinch of salt.

[Wirbelsturm]

At what point do you want to stop working for free and actually start earning to pay off that debt?

At what point do the companies then start paying for their pilots when there is a steady stream of desperate people willing to fly their aircraft for free?

Companies are run by accountants these days, give them a 'free' revenue reduction and they will bite your hand off and not change. The only one who loses is you and anyone else coming after you. Mind you you can always come on here lamenting on how those that have gone before have failed to protect the industries T's & C's whilst you work for less than peanuts!

All IMHO of course.

[Schnowzer]

I have 15000 hours you can have. I presently have a sale 2 hours for the price of one! So 1500 hrs cost about $300k. For only $1.5m you can have my un-needed hours, it’s a win win👌

[DownIn3Green]

Flying "for free" does not make one a "scab".
it's not the way to go, but who among us hasn't ferried an airplane or 2 for a few beers after?
Lighten up to the newbies.

[Checkboard]

*Ring Ring*
"Hi there - Cessna 206 airways."
"Hello - I am a pilot and want to work for you."
"Great what will you bring to the company?"
"I'll work for free!"
"So - you'll bring nothing to the company?"
"No - I'll fly the aeroplanes."
"Yes, but you yourself value that at nothing. We have a significant economic exposure to bad flying - we have a serious, legal, responsibility to our passengers - and you value your flying contribution at "zero"??? .... thank you but you are obviously such a bad pilot risk that we don't want to be associated with you."

[lucille]

The sanctimonious hypocrisy of the profession makes me shake my head in dismay. Look at what’s happening in Hong Kong, all those A scalers on very lucrative contracts who derided the ones who joined on lesser contracts, all of them now rushing to sign contracts which when compared to their previous salary is like flying for free. Hubris has a way of biting you in the rear end.

That high moral ground is a slippery slope, beware when preaching from it.

Do I think flying for free is a good thing? Of course not. But I’d never belittle someone else’s desperation to pursue their dream.

[nigelsomers]

Not sure why offering to fly for free is a bad thing! It's not that I intend to do it forever. I am just trying to get some initial hours to at least have a chance at a paid job. It has nothing to do with de-valuing what I can offer. I'm not a "bad pilot" or "unsafe." I have some friends that work as successful freelance graphic designers that told me they had to offer their services for free to get some initial reviews (then started charging thereafter). I know a personal trainer that worked with a few clients (for free) to get a few testimonies to start charging for his services. Working for free (initially) is very common in other industries so I think it is bizarre that it is frowned upon in this industry.

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.

[deja vu]

Not sure why offering to fly for free is a bad thing! It's not that I intend to do it forever. I am just trying to get some initial hours to at least have a chance at a paid job. It has nothing to do with de-valuing what I can offer. I'm not a "bad pilot" or "unsafe." I have some friends that work as successful freelance graphic designers that told me they had to offer their services for free to get some initial reviews (then started charging thereafter). I know a personal trainer that worked with a few clients (for free) to get a few testimonies to start charging for his services. Working for free (initially) is very common in other industries so I think it is bizarre that it is frowned upon in this industry.

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.
Well lets hope you get a job in GA and spend the rest of your working life trying to scratch a living from it, you deserve it. Arsewipes have been flying for free, overweight, and unserviceable aircraft for 55 years that I know of and are responsible for the industry being the complete shambles it is. Did it ever occur to you to get a job first, earn some money and pay for your flying as you go, nah too hard right.? I think I would be depressed too if I was a member of your group.

[Lapon]

Not sure why offering to fly for free is a bad thing! It's not that I intend to do it forever. I am just trying to get some initial hours to at least have a chance at a paid job. It has nothing to do with de-valuing what I can offer. I'm not a "bad pilot" or "unsafe." I have some friends that work as successful freelance graphic designers that told me they had to offer their services for free to get some initial reviews (then started charging thereafter). I know a personal trainer that worked with a few clients (for free) to get a few testimonies to start charging for his services. Working for free (initially) is very common in other industries so I think it is bizarre that it is frowned upon in this industry.

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.

The reason it is frowned upon is that once in the industry it is a constant battle to even just maintain existing conditions. Those of us who lived that fight for years dont appreciate the already small industry being flooded with attitudes of 'so what I'll just do it to get started'.

The problem is that next you go and fly for free to get that twin gig, next you pay for some turbo prop time, after that why not got and buy a jet job? By the time you and everyone else has done that the otherwise genuine operators rightly ask why should they pay at all.

You are better off putting your efforts into developing another skill set as you will probably need to draw on it at somepoint in your career anyway.

[deja vu]

Flying "for free" does not make one a "scab".
it's not the way to go, but who among us hasn't ferried an airplane or 2 for a few beers after?
Lighten up to the newbies.
Sorry but no. This person wants to displace another newbie getting an opportunity to gain some experience and being properly rewarded for it, as humble as that reward maybe. He is not talking about a one of ferry.

[Clare Prop]

To take on so much debt should already demonstrate some kind of commitment to the game. Being in debt with no job does not feel good at all, with someone in our group falling into a mild depression/regret for having chosen this career path.

So thanks for the harsh replies.

You're welcome.

It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?

Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.

[Checkboard]

The other professions you mentioned are independent contractors. In aviation, it’s the nature of the business that you are always an employee. Totally different situations.

[neville_nobody]

Sorry but no. This person wants to displace another newbie getting an opportunity to gain some experience and being properly rewarded for it, as humble as that reward maybe.



Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?

[Bloated Stomach]

Get an FIC rating and start from the bottom. Don't work for free. A prostitute wouldn't work for free, you have a professional qualification.

[Lapon]

Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?

You get the experience through persistence and networking, NOT by undermining your colleagues as you contribute to a race for the bottom.

[Clare Prop]

Which then leads back to the original problem of how do you get experience if all the 'professional' operators say you are to inexperienced? To be quite honest it's not even zero time pilots who work for free. Guys with 1000 hours fly for free just to get twin time. So if you take the moral high ground how do you get experience?



The same skills that are required in any career.

Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.

[mikewil]

The same skills that are required in any career.

Someone who will be ostracised by the staff is NOT going to be a valuable team member. The idea that they are being supported by a rich family doesn't really go down well, nor does the fact that there is a white ant in their midst.

And yet, as quoted by several posters above, they appear to be the ones that have surged ahead and got into the majors ahead of everyone else...

[Lapon]

And yet, as quoted by several posters above, they appear to be the ones that have surged ahead and got into the majors ahead of everyone else...

They are probably the first to bitch and moan about everything when they do get to the majors too.

[nigelsomers]

The other professions you mentioned are independent contractors. In aviation, it’s the nature of the business that you are always an employee. Totally different situations.

That is true although I did check with Fair Work and if it's "vocational" then it's legal to work for free, whether you are an employee or a contractor.

[nigelsomers]

You're welcome.

It was your choice to take on the debt, a huge investment in a volatile industry that presumably you did due dilligence on and understood the considerable risk, so why should others like myself who made the commitment by working four jobs simultaneously to pay for it as they went along be expected to give up their career for someone who chose to put themselves in that situation?

Your debt is your choice. If it is a VET debt than we flying taxpayers are already subsidising you. By deliberately setting yourself up to be under the threshold you are already getting a free ride apart from the indexation, isn't that enough? It's not like the bank is going to come along and take your house. My advice, get a trade and start contributing.

Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).

[morno]

Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).

I don’t know much about VET, but you’re telling me that you pay the same interest rate that a bank would charge? If not, then yes, we are subsidising you.

I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?

You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.

What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.

Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.

What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.

It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.

Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.

[nigelsomers]

I don’t know much about VET, but you’re telling me that you pay the same interest rate that a bank would charge? If not, then yes, we are subsidising you.

I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?

You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.

What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.

Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.

What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.

It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.

Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.

I sense your overreaction and paranoia that by offering to work for free (remember, initially!), that I am somehow effecting how much you are getting paid, "degrading" the profession, etc. I'm blown away by how wildly insecure some of the pilots are here about a few of us in my group that are looking at offering to fly for free when in other industries, it's normal. In other industries, working for free on a probationary period demonstrates dedication.

Please understand that none of us want to work for free. Some of us will be eating into our savings while we fly for free. We just feel we have no other choice to get a break in the industry, so we are going ahead with it.

Yes I did my research before getting into this industry but no amount of research prepared for the current pandemic. Flying for free probably wouldn't have been an option pre-pandemic but the economics have changed so we'll do a resume drop and see what happens.

[kingRB]

Nigel's a scab. So is anyone else trying to rationalize working for free.

You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.

[neville_nobody]

You're lazy and looking for a way to justify taking shortcuts the rest of us didn't. Like mentioned previously - your name will be made mud if you ever actually make it into a paid position.

However in reality that doesn't happen. You rock up at the twin operator with your 100+ hours of free/paid twin time and the twin operators says, "oh great someone who meets my minimum experience levels" You're hired. After a year there you have a job in a regional or doing mining charter in a twin turboprop. Next thing you know you're flying a jet. Meanwhile all your mates are still fighting over who does a ferry in the Baron to get some twin time.

End of the day noone cares how you got your experience as long as it isn't fake whether you got paid or not is irrelevant. That's just the reality of the situation. Aviation isn't a "good bloke" competition or who took the moral high ground it's all about who has the experience.

Further to all this would you blacklist AMES/LAMES/IT Professionals/Accountants/Lawyers/Plumbers/Carpenters who have offered their services for free just to get flying jobs? Are they scabs as well? How would the local accountant feel that he lost a client because some pilot/accountant did the accounts for free so that he can fly?

[deja vu]

Harsh! Taxpayers didn't subsidise my student loan debt in the long term. It's a debt I owe to the government indexed annually. It's not a donation from taxpayers. The whole point of taking on VET debt is to work in the aviation industry, earn above the threshold, and become an ordinary contributing taxpayer (which also slowly chips away at paying off the VET debt through my aviation career).
Hard to imagine anyone being so unaware! Aviation has always had more than its share of oxygen thieves, so why is this a surprise?

[Lapon]

Hard to imagine anyone being so unaware! Aviation has always had more than its share of oxygen thieves, so why is this a surprise?

Its also hard to believe that there are the occasional posters here attempting to justify it too. Presumably some sort of scab themselves whose daddy pays for everything, or more likley a shonky operator that exploits newbies to undercut competitors in the first place.

[morno]

Its also hard to believe that there are the occasional posters here attempting to justify it too. Presumably some sort of scab themselves whose daddy pays for everything, or more likley a shonky operator that exploits newbies to undercut competitors in the first place.

Agreed. Go on Neville, tell us where you got your free hours. Scab

[Lead Balloon]

Neville @ post #20And no I never paid to fly or flew for free but I wouldn't necessarily black ball someone who did. ..

[kingRB]

End of the day noone cares how you got your experience as long as it isn't fake whether you got paid or not is irrelevant. That's just the reality of the situation. Aviation isn't a "good bloke" competition or who took the moral high ground it's all about who has the experience.


No, that's your take on it to justify your scab behavior. You don't like being told your choices to undermine and shortcut in the industry means you are a scab in the eyes of your peers. That's the reality of the situation.
Clearly the amount of industry people posting here that you are trying to argue against should have given you a clue otherwise.

How would the local accountant feel that he lost a client because some pilot/accountant did the accounts for free so that he can fly?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

[neville_nobody]

Agreed. Go on Neville, tell us where you got your free hours. Scab

I have never worked for free or paid for commercial operations. When I was younger I was probably more of persuasion that people who did it were scabs ruining the industry etc so I never did it and took the 'honourable' route. Only to watch people work for free (including sky diving) and those who bought twin time (or managed to have it already through family connections) especially; do really well out of it. Meanwhile all the "honourable" pilots were still in GA while all the so called scabs were flying in airlines. Sure operators appreciated that you did it the "right way" but they still didn't hire you. "Get XYZ experience then give me a call"

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

So it's criminal to work for free as a pilot but OK to work for free as a plumber or accountant or LAME?? In fact those guys used to annoy me more. It was like just having a commercial license and few hours wasn't enough, you needed to have some other totally unrelated qualification that took 3-4 years to obtain just so you might get a shot a flying some clapped out aircraft.

[kingRB]

I have never worked for free or paid for commercial operations.

why are you fervently defending scabs so much then?



So it's criminal to work for free as a pilot but OK to work for free as a plumber or accountant or LAME?? In fact those guys used to annoy me more. It was like just having a commercial license and few hours wasn't enough, you needed to have some other totally unrelated qualification that took 3-4 years to obtain just so you might get a shot a flying some clapped out aircraft.

What do plumbers or accountants have to do with it? That's a false equivalence and irrelevant. What matters is our industry as commercial pilots. Our pay and conditions are hard fought, and are directly undermined by people willing to work for less or work for free.

[RE Koyich]

Wow! Think this through a bit, Sir!

[gulliBell]

Well I am just trying to get into the industry and start paying off my VET fee debt. I'm not sure what the expectation is (i.e fly for free?) because I haven't had a job as a pilot yet. Very disheartening given the amount of money invested in this...
My roof needs some ridge caps cemented and pointed. I'm willing to spot you some cash to do the job. You won't be working as a commercial pilot any time soon, that's the reality of the situation. You need to look elsewhere to earn an income. Offering to work for free will end your career before it even starts.

[gulliBell]

..We just feel we have no other choice to get a break in the industry, so we are going ahead with it..

Understand there is an Air Pilots Award and it is the law that if you are working as pilot you must be paid as per the Award as a minimum. No operator is going to fall for the "fly for free" trick. Even if you did fly for free, by mutual consent with the operator, as soon as you left that employment you can take the operator to the FWC and they will be forced to pay you. Everybody knows that. There is no such thing as working for free, so put into action your plan B. Obviously your flight instructors drilled into you during training to always have a plan B.

[umop apisdn]

Say you have 2 candidates, both skilled, friendly, eager, etc.

Candidate 1: Worked for free but does not require a type rating, has time on type.

Candidate 2: Never worked for free but requires a type rating, no time on type.

Bills are piling up. You need someone in your (I dunno, Caravan?) ASAP because your two Chieftains aren't getting released from their 100 hourlies until they get a new engine each.

Who do you choose? How much is the integrity of the candidates standing before you worth to your bottom line?

[Checkboard]

Training them yourself means you don’t inherit bad habits. :)

How long is a caravan endorsement? A day?

[gulliBell]

Ummmm, I don't understand the hypothetical scenario. With the two Chieftains stuck in maintenance why can't the employee pilots who usually fly them fly the Caravan?

[zanthrus]

Because the Caravan while single engine is Gas Turbine and requires a Flight Review.

[neville_nobody]

What do plumbers or accountants have to do with it? That's a false equivalence and irrelevant. What matters is our industry as commercial pilots. Our pay and conditions are hard fought, and are directly undermined by people willing to work for less or work for free.

I'm referring to pilots who have those qualifications who work for free just so they get a flying job. Is that acceptable but flying for free is not? What about working for free cleaning aircraft or in the office so you can get a foot in the door? What's the difference?

why are you fervently defending scabs so much then?
I am not defending it I'm ambivalent about it. There are three issues in play one is how do you get experience when you don't have any and people I saw who did work for free or paid to fly did well out of it. It was probably a good use of their time/money. Thirdly there is no real repercussion for doing it in fact you are rewarded through career progression.

[Wirbelsturm]

I've seen this in the helicopter industry. Let me fly your shiny gas turbine choppers for free please Mr/Mrs AOC holder!

Once they had some experience they would then say, oh, I've got experience now, how about paying me to do the same job? Never happened. The accountants just found the next mug to fly for nothing and they were 'let go'.
When they moved off looking for their next job with their fist full of hours usually the operator would give us a ring and ask how they were. Nothing was ever embellished but most operators were rightly skeptical when they were told they were let go at the end of their 'paid for by themselves' hour building.

Thankfully those dark days of 'fly for free' seem to be over in the helicopter industry (going back to the 90's now) and I would hate to see them in the fixed wing world as well. Getting ahead is one thing but trashing the already diminished T's & C's for newbies is, in my opinion, despicable.

[mostlytossas]

Working for free opens a whole can of worms doesn't it. Just what constitutes working for free? I know a few Electricians and Plumbers and Carpenters that sometimes work for free. Usually this is through organisations like Lions,Rotary,Jaycees etc or could be by themselves by taking on maintenance duties for say Ronald McDonald house etc. This is charitable work or called "giving something back". One sparky I know belongs to a church and will fix members electrics if they are pensioners and can't afford to pay a contractor. Angel flight pilots also could be deemed working for free if they hold a CPL. Glider towing if a club member etc all is for free for the greater good.
This is a world away from offering to work for free at a business that is making money from your efforts. This is illegal and they can be prosecuted for it. Because you are not on their books you will not be covered by workcover. You are not a contractor either if there is not a record of payment to you as they can claim your charges off their taxable income. The tax office will also want your tax if a real contractor or employee. So we taxpayers are getting ripped off too.
Sometimes you read of unscrupulous small shopkeepers getting young jobseekers to work a few days for free as a "trial" only to let them go and repeat the process again and again. This is illegal. Do not partake in it no matter how hard it is to break into the workforce. Unfortunately there will always be some business owners only too willing to take advantage of the vulnerable. Report them if you have evidence as they not only screw their unpaid workers but businesses that do the right thing and compete against them.

[nigelsomers]

Maybe if I don't get a break in the industry, I'll just build an Instagram or YouTube channel as do what Mentour Pilot and flywithgarrett is doing.

[gulliBell]

...I think maybe the OP now has an idea it wasn't such a good idea. From what I understand the Diploma of Aviation has a VET fee loan cap of about $80K so if he's spent $120K on the course he probably owes somebody money now, despite not earning an income above the VET repayment threshold. Picking fruit etc should be on his plan B radar.

[Clare Prop]

More like $150,000 cap plus a $30,000 admin fee. Just the cost of that admin fee could get you 100 command hours. I'm guessing the cost of the pilot costume is on top of that.

Some providers aiming for the rich list will keep on fooling people that there is a "pilot shortage" and because that is what they want to hear, they sign up. It's the most expensive way of doing it, but the providers do very nicely until they suddenly go bust, leaving the students with nothing to show for it but a VET debt that the rest of us have to subsidise.

Then when they finally get qualified for double what it would have cost them if they'd worked and saved up for a few years, they try to white ant the industry and those same people who didn't fall for the sales pitch. White ants have always been a problem in this industry but the sense of entitlement that the massive government loans have given them seems to have made it worse. Clearly the Govt were also taken in by the "pilot shortage" rubbish or there should be an investigation into the vested interests.

The training provider made it's money from selling courses, not command time, so these people often only have the bare minimum of 70 hours. That's going to make it pretty tough to find work.

In my experience success in the industry is like the tortoise and the hare. Most of the ones like the OP who have contemptuously tried to stamp on people's heads on the way up have fallen by the wayside. Former students of mine who have got to the top of their game have all been self funded. Nothing like a few years of underground FIFO prior to starting the course to prove commitment.

gulliBell, thanks, I now have an image of someone turning up at the farm complete with sparkling white shirt, gold bars, raybans and whizz wheel in pocket. I wonder if they would pick fruit for nothing just to get ahead? Knowing some of the hard core fruit pickers out there I think they would last just a few seconds.

[ddoth]

OK, so you get a job flying for free. Great. You are off gaining some command hours.
Few months down the line, you ask to be paid, operator decides he is going to take the next one in line, offering to work for free.
You've just lost your sweet gig but that's OK, you have some command hours! Time to hit job number two and progress further.

​​​​​​You keep sending out resumes but no one is taking you. You start speaking to a recently hired pilot. He wanted some twin time so offered to work for free. Guess you aren't getting your second job without working for free after all.

You dig in, just for a little while, you'll get a paid job soon right. Job two, you gotta work for free now.

That's OK, in six months, you'll have some quals for job three. Surely that has to be a paid job. At least you hope it is because you don't have any money left...

The biggest problem for working for free is someone else can always afford to do it longer than you can to get to their goal. You aren't the first, you won't be the last and it most definitely isn't just a few of you from your group.

A lot of operators won't take you just because you offer to work for free either. Command time, ratings, availability and time on type account for most of it, followed by recommendations from those in the game.

[Pinky the pilot]

I don't get it. From the first lot of replies the OP received to his question, it is quite clear that most, if not all, would agree that working for free is not a very good idea.:=

Why then, is this discussion continuing?:confused:

FWIW, I would not acknowlege, or even speak to anyone who ever admitted to having done so!
But maybe that's just me; A cranky old bastard!:*

Taily; You wanna make with the padlock?:}

[nigelsomers]

I don’t know much about VET, but you’re telling me that you pay the same interest rate that a bank would charge? If not, then yes, we are subsidising you.

I and many others worked our arses off to get our qualifications, and you just want to come in an undercut us all by “working for free, but only at the start”. How long does “the start” go for?

You're degrading your future profession, you’re preventing someone from earning a living and you have a lot to learn about professional integrity.

What about the legalities of insurance etc. when you prang an aeroplane and injure your passengers? You’re not a paid employee, so you most likely aren’t covered by any form of indemnity or hull loss insurance. I bet you’d argue that you are an employee, but watch a lawyer tear that apart in court and then sue you for millions.

Regarding your claim about friends who work in graphic design or whatever needing testimonials etc. Do you think you need that sort of crap to work as a professional pilot? Did you do any sort of research about your intended career path as a pilot? Do you understand your VET loan requirements and the fact that you don’t pay anything until you reach a certain threshold of income? Don’t cry to us that you’re “lumped with debt”. You’ve got a loan that doesn’t require repayments until you earn a certain amount.

What about those of us who have genuine debts like housing loans, and the cost of keeping a family going. You might be a long way down the chain from some of us, but if we get enough of you scabs volunteering to fly for free, it goes up the chain and then next thing you’re affecting my income.

It’s a very small industry buddy, and if people find out your name, then it’ll spread like a weed and your name will be dirt. You might work your way up through the industry no problem because of it, but it won’t be an enjoyable path because of the hatred people will have for you.

Yes, sounds harsh doesn’t it, but if you degrade my profession, then you deserve every criticism you get.

You are such a terrible human being. To call me and other people "scabs" is insulting. I am fresh to this aviation industry and never thought that asking to work for free would create so much hysteria in a forum. You really need to be more thoughtful in your responses. You really do remind me of a school yard bully. I'm sure you wouldn't say that to my face if we had this same conversation at an aerodrome.

I have been reading everybody's responses here and most of it is meaningful insights. "you're a scab" is childish my friend.

[gulliBell]

Offering to work for free might be seen similarly to contractors crossing union picket lines. Hence the malice shown against those who undercut workers hard won pay and conditions by working for less than the Award (or for free), or who cross union picket lines, should come as no surprise. Being fresh to the aviation industry, as you say, and having only operated within the protected confines of a flying school environment, you obviously weren't aware that raising this issue in a public forum was going to stir up a hornet's nest of angst (contrary to what you say, it's not hysteria). Many here would cut a young guy some slack for not knowing any different. But now that you know that offering to work as a pilot for free is a bad idea, take that advice onboard and execute your plan B. Bad ideas in aviation have consequences you just don't see in other occupations. You simply can't compare it to graphic designers or plumbers or many other occupations where people might work for free to get some valuable experience. Remember also, if an operator does take you on working for free, what corners they might also be cutting on aircraft maintenance? On training? On SMS? On insurances? etc. I dare say you probably don't have the nouse or the fortitude to deal with operators at that end of the industry, and if you were to do so you'd be setting yourself up for more grief. And you should also be aware that insurance underwriters of charter aircraft often have minimum experience requirements for pilots that are higher - actually much higher - than the experience you will have as a freshly minted CPL. Bending a relatively inexpensive training aircraft as a solo student pilot is one thing, there is a limited insurance risk for that. But when fare paying passengers are being carried on charter operations the insurance risk is way way much more. Hence working for free doesn't overcome that hurdle for you. Tune your radar further afield if you want to earn a living. I can tell you I was quoted $2000 to bed and point 40 ridge caps on my roof. That is good money for one days work. I've been working as a pilot for almost 30 years and never saw any more than about half that for a days work.
p.s. "you're a scab" is in the lexicon of Industrial dispute. It's not being childish in this context.

[umop apisdn]

You are such a terrible human being. To call me and other people "scabs" is insulting. I am fresh to this aviation industry and never thought that asking to work for free would create so much hysteria in a forum. You really need to be more thoughtful in your responses. You really do remind me of a school yard bully. I'm sure you wouldn't say that to my face if we had this same conversation at an aerodrome.

I have been reading everybody's responses here and most of it is meaningful insights. "you're a scab" is childish my friend.

There is a large amount of the industry that lurk around these forums. Please. If your username is anything close to your real name, stop posting. Nothing good will come of it.

You don't owe it to anyone here to justify your position if you still haven't changed your mind from the replies you have recieved.

[Senior Pilot]

Hamsterwheel with nothing new added for days. PPRuNers are generally better than some of the vitriol being posted here :oh:

Thread closed.