Aegean Airlines Fly for Food

[Work4Food]

I am not aware of anything similar happening on the planet earth....as it is happening in AEGEAN AIRLINES a member of STAR ALLIANCE. The salaries given to Captains, First Officers and cabin crew have always been super low but now.... they are nominated for a possible Guinness World Record ! The lowest salaries in the world for A320 !

What is happening here...is the definition of Medieval Working Conditions and "Modern Slavery" ! I fly for FOOD.....is more than appropriate !


The figures are net for Local crews/Month not expat salaries, since expats have been made redundant almost immediately due to Covid.

Captains: 2500-3000 (tel:2500-3000) EUR (some with older staff # much higher, like TRE, TRI, pilot management etc)
First Officers: 800-1200 (tel:800-1200) EUR (800-900 EUR take some colleagues from HAF-Hellenic Airforce since around 300 EUR are subtracted from their "salaries" due to A320 Type rating)
Cabin crew: 500 EUR (Most CCM have a 6 month contract, they fire them after 6 months.... then IF next summer they need them back they hire them again !)
Rights ? What rights ?


The above figures are for around 30-40 Block hours (around 70-80 Duty hours) - Captains might fly more since they are less and next month is around 25 h Block (November) for First Officers.


Pre Covid figures: net average/Month (90+ h/Month summer season - 50 h or less/Month winter season, 700-750 h per year)

Captains: 3500-4700 (tel:3500-4700) EUR (10-15 years captains with the annual bonus +TRE-TRI extras, from 7000-9000+ EUR/Month). Cases of less than 3000 EUR/Month also exist for captains !
First Officers: 1800-2500 (tel:1800-2500) EUR (depending on basic salary and IF you get a summer base-per diem). Cases of 1600 EUR/Month also exist for First Officers ! I am one of them...
Cabin Crew: 800-900 EUR (SCCM 1200 EUR depending also with sales)


Let's make a quick FORDEC.....


FACTS: This Salary is a disgrace for the Aviation industry... now and then, even before Covid !
OPTIONS: Wait for the industry to recover and run away ....! or...stay.... or do something else....change profession !
RISKS: To stay with them is a great risk for our health....not only for our pocket !
DECISION: Run away with "Afterburner" .....
EXECUTE: Send them far away....
CHECK-RECHECK: Even the desert will seem OASIS !


The "funny" part is that pilot management and other high ranked officials think that we must be very happy... since we keep our positions. Like the cow which is happy while eating the green grass just before being slaughtered !

Since the salary here (even pre-covid) is 1/3 or less from the salary given everywhere else, It cost them nothing to continue giving "peanuts" . They have on "standby" a small # of qualified pilots and when the flights increase next summer... those "slaves" will be ready for work again !


They will also use expats again....Its easy....I need you now....tomorrow go out, on winter go out.....low seasons....go out..!


Pilot Unions in Greece ? Are you joking ? Whoever has tried to promote the fair and the good in this company... has been fired or put aside...!
" we have to isolate the rebels and stop rebellions" !

The only thing they do good is P.R...public relations ! A320 NEO delivery- ceremony , TV commercials , FB and Instagram marketing-promotion practices and a big big FAKE smile! Of course with the "help" of the GREEK government (a house with a red light or red light district...if you prefer...) !

[PIKAD]

So what are you really trying to tell us?
It's a private company and it's normal to try to cut costs.
​​​​If you are an airline pilot I am sure you would fly under those terms rather than staying unemployed

[AOGspanner]

€4700 for part time (40 block / 80 duty hours) that's pretty good.

[PilotLZ]

While I realise that this is no comfort for any expat in Eastern Europe, I can't help but wonder why people lose the big picture all the time. Pilot salaries in that part of the world are scaled towards the overall standard of living even in the best of times, let alone when COVID survival mode is on. The mean or the minimum salaries in Greece for any job are not even close to those in Western Europe or in the Middle East (with living costs obviously also being lower). Pilots are no exception.

[Overheat]

PIKAD

I can’t believe you really think this way.
i’d rather drive a bus and sleep every night in my bed for 1000€ than get the same money as an Airline Pilot.
I do love and respect the job. That is why I won’t accept putting us at the same level of an unqualified worker.

[PontiusPilotus]

I am not so sure if this thread and the "cry for awareness" is being placed under ideal circumstances seen the current aviation industry is currently being smacked to the ground due to the covid19 pandemic. With a quick search on the internet and looking at the thousands of forum titles about pilots being made redundant, one should be proud and happy to still have a seat in a flying cockpit. I do realise the salaries at the mentioned company are very low in regards to the remaining airlines in Europe, but none the less it does provide a decent lifestyle in Greece. Not to mention that highly educated academics sometimes earn even less than pilots in this country. If we were talking about previous years, I would suggest to complete your minimum hours in your personal logbook and try look for better opportunities elsewhere, as the experience you gain in Aegean Airlines is certainly in a top ten list in the industry. But with today's negative numbers, hold your horses and enjoy the flying as long as you can. Many pilots are counting the copper coins to come around each week and have no clue when they will ever hold a throttle and side stick in their hands again.

[skyboy83]

(with living costs obviously also being lower). Pilots are no exception.

Believe me, living costs in Greece is not as low as you think. This is why lot of Greek people are moving abroad to find better working conditions.

[rhs4life]

I’m probably being way too naive/clueless but why isn’t there a union? Surely everyone would want to join and Aegean couldn’t fire the whole workforce...

(This applies more to pre-Covid/post-Covid anyway, as now it would be pointless)

[Nick 1]

Luray

That’ s why aviation is a disgrace today......

[Work4Food]

@ AOGspanner

If you read more carefully, 4700 EUR are PRE-covid for CAPTAINS (4-5 years captains)

That figures are PRE-covid for around 700-750 h per year .... (90+ h/Month summer season and around 50 h/Month winter season)

Unfortunately WE ..the pilots are the bigger threat to T&C......."shiny Jet Syndrome" > P2F > Work for "peanuts"> I would do "anything" to touch a cockpit etc.....

If you are below average in skills but your father is rich...yes you can afford to work for 800 EUR ....That is why so many people defending the 800 EUR. With the papa behind....

(I don't know a family of 3 or 4 that can live with 800 EUR/Month........AND don't forget we are talking about pilots......not cleaning personnel)

[TheBat]

Nick 1

EXACTLY!
You've hit the nail on the head!

[OSTRIA]

You are more than correct !

It is a disgrace to work for 800-900 EUR ! PERIOD

[PilotLZ]

But what can be done about it? Go tell the guys working there now to quit and go stack shelves until 2022-2023 or thereabout, when they can realistically expect new employment as pilots. In the present situation, people are clinging onto any flying job for dear life. And, unfortunately, that's the case in many other professions as well. The other day I was reading an article about professionalism in general becoming massively depreciated because so many professionals only care about not getting fired now.

Maybe the one and only solution would be to artificially suppress the supply of pilots, like they did in the USA with the 1500-hour rule. But in Europe that would be very hard, if not impossible to achieve.

[Bealzebub]

Maybe the one and only solution would be to artificially suppress the supply of pilots, like they did in the USA with the 1500-hour rule. But in Europe that would be very hard, if not impossible to achieve.

why?

Probably the right way to go. Easy to achieve by requiring a full ATPL to sit in either seat of an aircraft over 5700 kg. Training route in being either that or the Airline mentored MPL. If it rebalances the market then it will spur the airlines to make those programmes achievable to a greater cross section.

[Nick 1]

@Lurav “ Where have you been for the past 6 month?“

At home , i will not accept any salary below my dignity and professionalism , this will mean to be out of aviation ? No problem .
Im am fed up with “ pilot” that compare themself to fast food flip-burgher because they don’ have any courage to stand up and fight for better contract .
What if tomorrow the company will ask you to fly for free ? Not even for food , and pay for your licence renewal ?What will be your answer ?
Tell us where is you dignity level , we are curious...

[Hawker400]

Agreed. I'd rather not be a pilot than a low paid one. I don't care what anyone says, I became a pilot for the money and the lifestyle. Both are gone? Well, so am I.

​​​​​​

[4runner]

aviation is a global industry. Also, pilot salaries have not always been low in this part of the world. I’m sure there are some Olympic pilots that will correct you. Stop making excuses for low compensation. It’s pathetic. A lot of this can be blamed on the unions that don’t cooperate throughout the continent and your P2F schemes and lack of general aviation opportunities.

[PilotLZ]

Bealzebub

Also, all talk about extending retirement age from 65 to 67, 68, 70 or whatever should stop once and forever. As for limiting oversupply at the bottom, given the shortage of GA opportunities across Europe, one alternative to the 1500 hours would be requiring any candidate for an ATPL to achieve a degree first. That's not unheard of in some parts of the world - and it largely takes care of those who think that having mom and dad pay for a crash course in basic physics and button pushing will guarantee them a glamorous career.

[ZFT]

Is that the same mum and dad that pays to put junior through university?

[Bealzebub]

PilotLZ

yes, quite possibly.

Since the late 90’s when Mr O’Leary stated that he only wanted one pilot in the flight deck and clearly that wasn’t going to happen anytime soon, the cheapest interim option was the way to go. At about the same time Joint Aviation Requirements brought the hours for a CPL issue down from 700 hours to 250 hours. This opened the floodgates to a whole generation of “wannabes” who thought that 250 hours was the new golden ticket to the right hand seat of a 737 or A320. Prior to this era of deregulation there were “fast track” pathways to airline careers via a handful of “approved” schools. Suddenly, Puddlewick-in-the-Marsh flying club rebranded itself as the Puddlewick-in-the Marsh Airline Academy. Sadly, the output vastly exceeded the real world demand. Many of the larger airlines continued to source from the newer iterations of what were previously the “approved” schools.

The reason JAR brought the “non-approved” hours requirement down by nearly two thirds was because the CPL was the new aerial work licence, much as it properly was everywhere else in the world. It was then that the ATPL should have been regulated as the licence required for Airline Transport flying. I am sure Mr O’Learly was delighted, and for 20 years many thousands of hopeful aspirants have been able to squabble ad-infinitum about “modular and integrated” and how unfair it is that airlines aren’t snapping them up with their 250 hours. Add to that, the reality that even the airline apprenticeship programmes were so oversubscribed that they could transfer the entire financial risk burden to the trainees and you end up with the situation you have today! More properly you have the situation you had up until March this year.

Commercial aviation has been turned on its head by this disaster. As the world eventually recovers from this, and allowing for “grandfather” transition periods, it is an ideal opportunity for the regulations to properly rebalance the situation. The ATPL should become the baseline qualification for the right hand seat of an airliner. Beyond that, a properly structured airline programme should become the fast track route. Radical? Not really, it’s the way it is in the US and pretty much the way it was prior to JAR and then later EASA.

[PilotLZ]

Is that the same mum and dad that pays to put junior through university?
At least junior will have learned and demonstrated some abilities other than learning the answers to multiple-choice questions. Sadly, that's exactly what's happening these days and that's what makes the academic entry barrier into flying unacceptably low. I've seen my fair share of aspiring pilots who fall flat on their face in all ATPL exams requiring problem solving because they simply memorise the answers from their question bank and have no clue what to do if faced with a similar type of question but with different numbers in it. Someone with a degree will have been required to stretch their brain quite a bit more and will have hopefully learned some very important self-study, time management and teamwork skills in those 3 or 4 years.

[Bealzebub]

But then again, as demand for flight schools will instantly plummet where should one find his first job? Crop dustinghttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif?

No. Instructing. That’s how many people cut their teeth pre-JAR. They used to do this work with a PPL, but JAR made it an aerial work assignment requiring a CPL, hence the reduction in hours required. This brought the licence into alignment with the rest of the world. Presumably the schools will do well selling all of those instructor courses as they indeed they used to. Other aerial work jobs could be found bush flying in Africa and light aircraft flying in the Far East. That is why it’s a 250 hour licence. A licence you can do at pretty much your own pace and wherever you want to do it. It never was designed to be a shoehorn into a jet airliner.

you want to fly an airliner with 200 hours? Well, it was possible 50 years ago too!

https://youtu.be/03ppjh8lg_8

[guy_incognito]

I think a dash of realism is required here. Firstly, flying is generally not an academic vocation, outside I suppose a test flying environment. There is no reason for it to be academic, or require a high level of academic achievement as a prerequisite for entry. If anything, the required written elements are overly pedantic. There is no earthly reason that a knowledge of Mercator projections or polar stereographic charts should be required in 2020. There is simply no need for an in depth knowledge of aerodynamics, nor the intricacies of performance. The ATPLs may quite rightly be said to be simply learning for the sake of it, or to artificially increase the legitimacy of a flying licence as a qualification. Not only does 95%+ of what is assessed in the ATPL exams not have any practical application in the real world, but I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of current airline pilots would fail if presented with a Gen Nav or Met paper now.

The reality is that (airline) flying is extremely prescriptive, with a vast amount of automation (not just in terms of the aircraft themselves). Flight planning is done by the Jepp or LIDO computer at HQ, weight and balance is done by plugging numbers into a computer, ditto the performance. Increasingly the job on an airline pilot is to perform a series of actions (SOPs) by rote. Aircraft are extremely reliable, seldom have major mechanical problems, and are designed to be simple to operate. A high level of knowledge is neither expected nor required. To say that the job has been dumbed down would be an understatement.

With all of the above in mind, and bearing in mind that the imperative to cut costs is only going to accelerate due to the current circumstances, it's wholly unrealistic to expect that barriers to entry to the "profession" will increase.

With regard to salaries: you're only worth what the market thinks you're worth. That's true for any job. If an airline started offering "jobs" with zero pay tomorrow, there'd be a queue of people out the door ready to sign on the dotted line. It is therefore fanciful to think that there will be a return to anything like 2019 salaries for airline pilots any time soon, and probably ever again. This is a once in a generation opportunity for airline managers to completely redefine the "career" in terms of salaries and conditions, and you can guarantee that they're not going to waste it.

[Overheat]

I'd still prefer flying for 800 instead of frying burgers at McDowell's for 750. Once you are out and grounded there is no coming back for a long time.

If that’s what you think, You get paid what you deserve.
I’m sure mommy and daddy paid your Frozen ATP.

[Flying Clog]

Guy, your last paragraph I agree with, but the previous 3 are a load of bull.

As a pilot, you'll start as an FO, and end up as a captain, and eventually might end up flying as a captain through far, distant, polar places with not many options.... but 400 pax behind you you're responsible for.

As one of the above club, I've many, many times looked at the weather charts, paperwork, etc, and thought, hang on.. dispatch has made a mistake, and something doesn't look right. And I plan accordingly.

This 'hair standing up on the back of my neck', spotting an 18 year old flight planners error, has been purely down to having to endure polar grid navigation, omega nonsense, plotting weather movements etc etc from, what I thought at the time, was a complete waste of time 14 subject conversion from FAA to UK CAA ATPL.

Now, as a long haul ops 747 captain, I am eternally grateful for the nonsense (I thought at the time), I was put through.

But maybe that's just me.

[PilotLZ]

Excellent point, Flying Clog.

Something I can add to this is that not all situations can be written up in the SOP. For example, there are plenty of nonstandard technical failures which have no associated procedure - and correctly identifying the issue and its consequences is vital. That's where it's helpful to have an in-depth understanding of how the aircraft works. So, the question bank learner who's memorised which buttons to push to get from A to B without much understanding of what they do is only a good pilot on a nice day with everything going routinely. Although it's a matter of fact that most days are just like that and it's a routine and repetitive job for most of the time, the moments when the brown stuff hits the fan are when you tell the men apart from the boys.

[Flying Clog]

Absolutely PilotLZ

[4runner]

PilotLZ

Over 75% of American ATP holders have a 4 year degree or higher. Over 97% of major airlines pilots(delta, United, American) have a university degree. I didn’t realize that this wasn’t the case worldwide until I left a US carrier. EASA certificate holders like to compare their 12 or however many exams to 4 years of full time university....

[Flying Clog]

... a degree in basket weaving?

[JRK]

PontiusPilotus

Instead of being "proud and happy" to still have a flying job with such appalling conditions, would one not be better off accepting the hard realities and existing the industry altogether for greener pastures elsewhere?

[Flying Clog]

Absoutely JRK. That's the plan for me at least.

[iggy]

4runner

That is because they can actually get a university degree after they get their full ATPL. It just requires some online study, a couple of presentations and... voilá! You now hold the same education level as a lawyer or doctor. At least in Spain.

Personally I think that doesn't actually raise the level of the ATPL license, but it bringa down the other degrees.

[Uplinker]

Ignoring, for the moment, the extra difficulties the Covid19 virus is causing; there is nothing necessarily wrong with this sort of job for this sort of salary. It depends where you are on the aviation ladder.

I agree with PontiusPilotus: As long as the airline and terms and conditions are not Dickension, and if the (low) salary is nevertheless sufficient to rent a place to live in Greece and eat; then a paid gig flying a modern A320 could be just the ticket for some. Not for their whole flying career perhaps, but a couple of years maybe, or until becoming a Captain.

When my ATPL was still frozen, my first flying job was on a Shed (Shorts 360) for quite low money. But the company were great, the flying was interesting and I learned a lot, rapidly. I was able to afford rent, petrol and food, and gain flying hours. It suited me and my (low) level of experience at the time.

As far as ATPL knowledge, I agree with Flying Clog; yes you don't use all of it every day, but you do need a depth of knowledge to appreciate the physics of aviation, aircraft and navigation. Pilots of both the recent over-run and the very late descent leading to the gear up landing accidents obviously had not studied their ATPLs - I don't know how they gained their licences, but they obviously had no appreciation of the physics involved.

[nickler]

Scary thing here is that a few people think that You stop studying after getting your ATPL certificates where this is actually only the start as many here know... and those who do not agree are generally the ones who complain about the axehole examiner that failed them in this or that occasion.
For those who think there should not be any "academic" preparation in pilots training, I (and for sure many more here) can easily tell you that you can spot immediately a cadet who went through his ATPL by learning the database by heart with a few very simple questions like "can you tell me how a jet engine works ?" and get answers like "you need to check N1, EGT and N2 and if it's green it works".
It does not surprise me anyway that guy_incognito apparently wants to quit the job ; I honestly believe You should do something else based on your comments in different threads.

[guy_incognito]

Uplinker

Incidents like those have very little if anything to do with application of academic knowledge. Poor SOP adherence, lack of or poor training and lack of basic CRM skills were all contributory factors. I'd venture that not knowing the lift and drag equations, which direction the centre of pressure moves when flaps are extended, and how the engines produce thrust weren't.

It is absurd to think of airline flying as an academic pursuit. If anything it makes far more sense to view initial training and time spent as a FO as a kind of apprenticeship. Proposing to artificially increase barriers to entry is both wholly unrealistic and simply a case of pilots trying to justify the difficulty and intrinsic worth of the job to themselves.

[bluewhy]

Agreed. I'd rather not be a pilot than a low paid one. I don't care what anyone says, I became a pilot for the money and the lifestyle. Both are gone? Well, so am I.

​​​​​​


And probably because of those reasons you ended up being as unhappy as you now are.

I became a pilot because flying is my life.

Got a big paycut, and reduced hours. Still its the best job in the world. Still I am so happy every time - not very often anymore- that I put my uniform on.

It will always be the best job in the world for me. My life isn't any worse because I drive a 13 year old car or I don't go on 5* holidays.

It's all a matter of perspective mate. All the best.

[hec7or]

PilotLZ

Since the late 90’s when Mr O’Leary stated that he only wanted one pilot in the flight deck and clearly that wasn’t going to happen anytime soon, the cheapest interim option was the way to go. At about the same time Joint Aviation Requirements brought the hours for a CPL issue down from 700 hours to 250 hours. This opened the floodgates to a whole generation of “wannabes” who thought that 250 hours was the new golden ticket to the right hand seat of a 737 or A320.

What worries me is when the 250hr cadet becomes a 3000hr Captain, I know several and while they are very compliant with the SOP, sadly this is no substitute for experience and they tend to occupy either end of the personality spectrum ranging from dangerously overconfident to being scared of their own shadow.

[nickler]

guy_incognito

Looks like You don’t really know what You are talking about.

1st example : when flying long haul around the world you do need to have a reasonably good level of academic knowledge about different weather systems in addition to many other aspects pertaining to true vs magnetic navigation and so on.

2nd example : when landing at sea level in ISA+35 you need to consider density altitude for your energy management and need to make considerations on brake energy and temperature to assess a suitable exit.

3rd example : when stuck at low level and the only available higher level is above your optimum and close to your maximum you need academic knowledge on how to interpret a weather chart, jetstreams and likelihood of turbulence according to northern vs southern hemisphere and so on.

These are just a few basic examples of our job and we could end up with hundreds of them highlighting how solid academic ATPL knowledge will improve safety. If you think that aviation worldwide is setting up an FMGC and calling for checklists than you are in for some not so pleasant surprises.

[Flying Clog]

Exactly nickler.

[OutsideCAS]

FWIW. The situation currently for anyone employed by XYZ Airlines etc. is that the cards are stacked in favour of an employer (and not through the airline or individuals fault). I think if you have a role still and despite the cut in salary, I would stick it out but be very certain that unless when things improve (timescale not clear), your employer then fails to match what the employment market dictates - get out and let them learn the hard way. If they fail to adapt afterward, then they will by default lose the good people they had and dwindle slowly to nothing.

If your employer is trying to do things like lock people in to contracts that limit earning potential for the next 2-3 years, then I would suggest this kind of thing to be a 'red flag'. It says to me that they are looking to recoup entirely the profit from workforce salary as opposed to sharing the pain. But it is of course a business and best to not take it to heart perhaps - take money and move on when the market allows. I would expect a decent employer to communicate with the afflicted workforce every say 6 months with at least a cursory review and update, and this would show good intent.

[PilotLZ]

Good point, OutsideCAS. We have already seen some good examples of employers being honest with staff and acting in good will and with a long-term outlook rather than opportunistically. Those will be the companies which will be employers of choice in the future. The others will either have to accept their role as stepping stones onto something better or up their game somehow.

Unfortunately, we've still got a way to go until any of that materialises. And, in trying times like today, everyone needs to ask themselves why they are in aviation and what do they expect to get out of it. And some answers to that question might make it obvious for the individual that they're in the wrong walk of life and now is the perfect opportunity to "Rethink, reskill, reboot" without anyone ever asking you why you decided to do it.

[CargoOne]

Same old stories every time.. Pay us more and we will fly safer. But this time I read another idea "let's make the entry barriers so high that we got less new pilots, less competition and higher salaries" - this is very disgusting and perfect reason why unions in aviation shall be banned forever.

[Flying Clog]

Uh oh, we've got a nutter on our hands with CargoOne!

[appfo09]

Believe me, living costs in Greece are not as low as you think. This is why a lot of Greek people are moving abroad to find better working conditions.
I totally agree. Life in Greece is getting more and more expensive. Pilot salaries in Greece, on the other hand, are unacceptable. Working at a major airline within the Star Alliance Group is a big disgrace. I am more referring to pre-covid times. Now the situation is much different though I prefer to stay current on a lower budget and wait until the storm passes and then run away. I see some strong unions forming in the near future, just like in many other European countries, because this clown theatre will not be sustainable in the long-term.

[AOGspanner]

Work4Food

I've worked at Olympic and Aegean so I know the real salaries. And it pays for a pretty good standard of living over there. I don't think you'd find any pilot payslip at Aegean with €800. Or can you prove me wrong?

[j.nips]

I believe 800 EUR is the Greek government subsidised furlough monthly payout. I might be wrong though.

[piravlos01]

I can prove you wrong AOGspanner...
720
Documented.
Of course, there was a loan to be paid back for the type rating, 300 euro. So it should had been 1020.
But then... How many big European Airlines (and Aegean is one), are charging the pilot for his type rating? Usually they are bonding them.

[macdo]

720 or 1020, who cares? The baggage handlers will be on more than that. Jeez.

[skyboy83]

I've worked at Olympic and Aegean so I know the real salaries.
Have in mind that expats in Aegean have different contracts. The above figures are for locals.

[Setright]

What a lot of rubbish.

Another Pilot wannabe computer programmer.

I think a dash of realism is required here. Firstly, flying is generally not an academic vocation, outside I suppose a test flying environment. There is no reason for it to be academic, or require a high level of academic achievement as a prerequisite for entry. If anything, the required written elements are overly pedantic. There is no earthly reason that a knowledge of Mercator projections or polar stereographic charts should be required in 2020. There is simply no need for an in depth knowledge of aerodynamics, nor the intricacies of performance. The ATPLs may quite rightly be said to be simply learning for the sake of it, or to artificially increase the legitimacy of a flying licence as a qualification. Not only does 95%+ of what is assessed in the ATPL exams not have any practical application in the real world, but I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of current airline pilots would fail if presented with a Gen Nav or Met paper now.

The reality is that (airline) flying is extremely prescriptive, with a vast amount of automation (not just in terms of the aircraft themselves). Flight planning is done by the Jepp or LIDO computer at HQ, weight and balance is done by plugging numbers into a computer, ditto the performance. Increasingly the job on an airline pilot is to perform a series of actions (SOPs) by rote. Aircraft are extremely reliable, seldom have major mechanical problems, and are designed to be simple to operate. A high level of knowledge is neither expected nor required. To say that the job has been dumbed down would be an understatement.

With all of the above in mind, and bearing in mind that the imperative to cut costs is only going to accelerate due to the current circumstances, it's wholly unrealistic to expect that barriers to entry to the "profession" will increase.

With regard to salaries: you're only worth what the market thinks you're worth. That's true for any job. If an airline started offering "jobs" with zero pay tomorrow, there'd be a queue of people out the door ready to sign on the dotted line. It is therefore fanciful to think that there will be a return to anything like 2019 salaries for airline pilots any time soon, and probably ever again. This is a once in a generation opportunity for airline managers to completely redefine the "career" in terms of salaries and conditions, and you can guarantee that they're not going to waste it.

[Setright]

What a load of rubbish.

Another Pilot wannabe computer programmer post.

I think a dash of realism is required here. Firstly, flying is generally not an academic vocation, outside I suppose a test flying environment. There is no reason for it to be academic, or require a high level of academic achievement as a prerequisite for entry. If anything, the required written elements are overly pedantic. There is no earthly reason that a knowledge of Mercator projections or polar stereographic charts should be required in 2020. There is simply no need for an in depth knowledge of aerodynamics, nor the intricacies of performance. The ATPLs may quite rightly be said to be simply learning for the sake of it, or to artificially increase the legitimacy of a flying licence as a qualification. Not only does 95%+ of what is assessed in the ATPL exams not have any practical application in the real world, but I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of current airline pilots would fail if presented with a Gen Nav or Met paper now.

The reality is that (airline) flying is extremely prescriptive, with a vast amount of automation (not just in terms of the aircraft themselves). Flight planning is done by the Jepp or LIDO computer at HQ, weight and balance is done by plugging numbers into a computer, ditto the performance. Increasingly the job on an airline pilot is to perform a series of actions (SOPs) by rote. Aircraft are extremely reliable, seldom have major mechanical problems, and are designed to be simple to operate. A high level of knowledge is neither expected nor required. To say that the job has been dumbed down would be an understatement.

With all of the above in mind, and bearing in mind that the imperative to cut costs is only going to accelerate due to the current circumstances, it's wholly unrealistic to expect that barriers to entry to the "profession" will increase.

With regard to salaries: you're only worth what the market thinks you're worth. That's true for any job. If an airline started offering "jobs" with zero pay tomorrow, there'd be a queue of people out the door ready to sign on the dotted line. It is therefore fanciful to think that there will be a return to anything like 2019 salaries for airline pilots any time soon, and probably ever again. This is a once in a generation opportunity for airline managers to completely redefine the "career" in terms of salaries and conditions, and you can guarantee that they're not going to waste it.

[PilotGreek]

Hello everyone! Hope my message finds all of you well and healthy!

As the aviation sector is recovering again after the Covid-19 pandemic, I would like to ask you if the salary for newcomers in A3 is the same as referred above (800-1200€ net). It seems that A3 has plenty of flights from both ATH and SKG even for the winter period. I found info related to payscale stating that they earn a basic salary plus duty pay which is 0.02/km+9.8/sector (2016 info). Is this info still valid?

[piravlos01]

Hi, you cannot receive private messages.
But to answer your question, I don’t know.

Hello everyone! Hope my message finds all of you well and healthy!

As the aviation sector is recovering again after the Covid-19 pandemic, I would like to ask you if the salary for newcomers in A3 is the same as referred above (800-1200€ net). It seems that A3 has plenty of flights from both ATH and SKG even for the winter period. I found info related to payscale stating that they earn a basic salary plus duty pay which is 0.02/km+9.8/sector (2016 info). Is this info still valid?