Aer Lingus 747s - did they consider an alternative?

[Mooncrest]

Aer Lingus only had two 747s to begin with and had three at the most, with the addition of an ex-Lufthansa aircraft. I'm not sure the company ever had all three in service at any one time and they were leased out from time to time, e.g. British Airways and British Caledonian. As a loyal Boeing customer for some years, it was perhaps a logical step for Aer Lingus to introduce the 747 for its transatlantic routes; BOAC, Pan Am and TWA inter alia did likewise. Yet they didn't upgrade to the -200 or even the -400 and opted for the Airbus 330 to replace the 747. I just wonder if the TriStar or DC10 might have been a better fit, bearing in mind Aer Lingus would have needed to wait a while longer for these aircraft to enter service. The early TriStar wasn't strictly a transatlantic machine (neither was the Boeing 720 hitherto used) but I imagine Dublin/Shannon to New York and Boston would have been within range.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I think that once Ireland aligned themselves with the EU, they received SO much inward investment that upgraded infrastructure and facilities all ovewr the country, though especially on the East coast/Dublin area where all the political decisions are made, it would have been unlikely that they wouldn't be a client state for the EU aircraft corporation ;-) despite many many years of loyal homage to Boeing, no doubt in part due to the ethnic Irish Americans.

Both the McDonnell and Lockheed products would have worked on the then route map, especially as the airline was handcuffed to the Shannon stopover for most of the US flights. Perhaps the smaller capacity of those aircraft might have been more profitable for Aer Lingus, especially over the leaner winter months.

[Una Due Tfc]

I think that once Ireland aligned themselves with the EU, they received SO much inward investment that upgraded infrastructure and facilities all ovewr the country, though especially on the East coast/Dublin area where all the political decisions are made, it would have been unlikely that they wouldn't be a client state for the EU aircraft corporation ;-) despite many many years of loyal homage to Boeing, no doubt in part due to the ethnic Irish Americans.

Both the McDonnell and Lockheed products would have worked on the then route map, especially as the airline was handcuffed to the Shannon stopover for most of the US flights. Perhaps the smaller capacity of those aircraft might have been more profitable for Aer Lingus, especially over the leaner winter months.

The Trans Atlantic market ex Ireland was extremely peaky, in Summer all 3 747s were full and a 4th widebody was often leased in to help (BCAL Tristar for many years, World MD-11 too). However during winter, only two 74s were needed, with the 3rd often leased out to the above mentioned, or LAN Chile, or Air Jamaica.

2 767-300ERs entered the fleet around 1990, with the intention of launching an LAX route, but the aviation recession post GW1 put paid to that, and they were sold shortly after, 1 to TWA and the other to AeroMexico IIRC. Had they worked out, maybe Boeing twins would have been the future.....

As it worked out, Airbus needed someone to do the ETOPS proving work for the A330, and Aer Lingus were perfectly placed geographically to do this. EI got two A330s for pennies, and any and all spares needed to complete the ETOPS work for free. A330 #3 and 4 for the fleet were also obtained slightly used for virtually nothing from Airbus after Air Inter went bust.

Given where they were long haul pre COVID vs the Boeing days, things worked out well for them, although in the 80s or early 90s, a 757 / 767 combo probably would have been far more suitable than the 747s.

[SWBKCB]

Were the Tristar/DC-10 an alternative when EI ordered the 747?

[Una Due Tfc]

Were the Tristar/DC-10 an alternative when EI ordered the 747?

No, EI were an original customer of the 747, the first 2 were ordered before the type had flown. They were in the fleet from 1971-1995 IIRC.

[Mooncrest]

I'd forgotten about Aer Lingus' brief flirtation with the 767. I was under the impression that their 747s were somewhat under-utilised throughout their careers, hence the lease-outs but evidently they were all needed at certain times of the year. I admit having this fanciful notion that Aer Lingus might have hung on with 707s for the long-haul fleet until the TriStar or DC10 were ready to go. It could have been risky though if US competitors introduced the 747 between, say, Boston or New York and Dublin. I don't know if this was the case.

[PV1]

The Trans Atlantic market ex Ireland was extremely peaky, in Summer all 3 747s were full and a 4th widebody was often leased in to help (BCAL Tristar for many years, World MD-11 too). However during winter, only two 74s were needed, with the 3rd often leased out to the above mentioned, or LAN Chile, or Air Jamaica.

2 767-300ERs entered the fleet around 1990, with the intention of launching an LAX route, but the aviation recession post GW1 put paid to that, and they were sold shortly after, 1 to TWA and the other to AeroMexico IIRC. Had they worked out, maybe Boeing twins would have been the future.....

As it worked out, Airbus needed someone to do the ETOPS proving work for the A330, and Aer Lingus were perfectly placed geographically to do this. EI got two A330s for pennies, and any and all spares needed to complete the ETOPS work for free. A330 #3 and 4 for the fleet were also obtained slightly used for virtually nothing from Airbus after Air Inter went bust.

Given where they were long haul pre COVID vs the Boeing days, things worked out well for them, although in the 80s or early 90s, a 757 / 767 combo probably would have been far more suitable than the 747s.
I wasn’t aware BCAL ever had Tristars?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Caledonian, the post merger British Airtours was the airline. I loved the Aer Lingus / Cally hybrid with full EI colours and the lion rampant logo.

[rog747]

The Transatlantic market ex Ireland was extremely peaky, in Summer all 3 747s were full, However during winter, only two 747s were needed, with the 3rd often leased out to the above mentioned, or LAN Chile, or Air Jamaica.


That about sums up really the EI 747's.

EI were amongst the first along with most major National airlines such as KLM & BOAC to order their first 747 for early delivery in 1970 but was delivered in 3/1971. The airline's 2nd jumbo came shortly after.
Massive oil price hike in 1973 and the 747's proved for EI an expensive bird to fly.

EI leased one to Air Siam (both 747's went to Air Siam but not at the same time) and for East African Airways for the LHR FRA NBO run.
A while later it went on a long lease to BA and BCAL (aka Paddy Zulu)

Both were also used on IT holiday charter flights to the Med and the Canaries, as well as the EI Transatlantic flights from DUB & SNN to BOS & JFK, plus trooping flights for the US.

The first Aer Lingus 747 was registered EI-ASI and was leased to Air Siam in 1973
EI-ASJ was the second to join the fleet, arriving around a month later, from 1974 it spent periods on lease to East African, Air Siam, British Airways and British Caledonian Airways.
They both stayed with Aer Lingus until 1995.
In 1979 EI-BED was obtained from LH a 747-130, and saw leases with Air Algerie. Air Jamaica, Qantas, and LAN. Sold 1994.

The fourth 747 to fly for Aer Lingus was a very brief stint indeed. Leased from Alitalia a 747-143 in 1976, I-DEME operated for less than a month with the Irish carrier, suggesting it was covering one of the others undergoing maintenance or out on lease.

Seems not until 1994 did Airbus seem to get EI to take A330's.

[kenparry]

There is a story, just possibly untrue, that on return from the lease to BA, there was a placard at the FE station, in Gaelic. Translated into English it said "This aeroplane must be flown green side up"

I do hope it's true.

[BACsuperVC10]

I flew on a lightly loaded Aer Lingus 747 from JFK to DUB years ago, very pleasant.

[Peter47]

It may well have been a status thing, you are not a real airline in the 70s unless you operated 747s. Some carriers such as Delta & National replaced their 747s with trijets when they became available but often phasing out a very few 747s (two in the case of National) and acquiring a much larger fleet of trijets. Also bear in mind that the 747 had claimed direct operating costs 30% below that of the 707 (the actual saving was less once you took passenger service and other overhead costs which didn't reduce as much) so a business case could have been made. In summer 1969 they operated about 6 round trips per day and growth rates were around 15% - and expected to continue at that rate.

I don't know if Aer Lingus was part of ATLAS or KSSU, they certainly did a lot of third party maintenance work but it may have been that the the small fleet size was not such a problem. I think that in the off season in the 80s they would typically operate a daily 747 to JFK & weekly to BOS with maybe the odd charter flight to places such as the Canary islands. I doubt if the load factor was high but that was an accepted part of operating an airline back then. (Deregulation and the twin jets changed that.) They would doubtless had made money leasing out the third 747 at quiet times for Haj traffic and other purposes. Its interesting how much off season traffic trans Atlantic traffic from Ireland has grown in recent years, doubtless a combination of the economic growth of Ireland and establishment of Dublin as a hub with the ending of the rule that all aircraft had to stop at Shannon.

[pax britanica]

Back in the 80s I lived in Bermuda and did a whole lot of trans Atlantic travel ( alongside numerous LON-BDA trips ,which only go 3/4 of the way across and didnt operate every day) flying mostly east coast to LHR and always AA?BA for the Air Miles. There were some regular meetings in Dublin but they were usually covered by BDA-LHR or LGW and then on to DUB. So when I had to get there on one of the days with no direct BDA London flight i jumped at the chance to do JFK-DUB on Aer Lingus. And very nice it was too with a charming 'mature' cabin crew, very nice food and a Guinness (admittedly canned) on board. It was pretty full in business and and I imagine that they did ok on the route due to J class, a lot of the pax seemed to be very regular users. Possibly there was a fair bit of freight too helping out with the revenues but I suppose operating a very small fleet is never going to be easy. Nice trip though and still remember it well

[Just a spotter]

The Trans Atlantic market ex Ireland was extremely peaky, in Summer all 3 747s were full and a 4th widebody was often leased in to help (BCAL Tristar for many years, World MD-11 too). However during winter, only two 74s were needed, with the 3rd often leased out to the above mentioned, or LAN Chile, or Air Jamaica.

2 767-300ERs entered the fleet around 1990, with the intention of launching an LAX route, but the aviation recession post GW1 put paid to that, and they were sold shortly after, 1 to TWA and the other to AeroMexico IIRC. Had they worked out, maybe Boeing twins would have been the future.....

As it worked out, Airbus needed someone to do the ETOPS proving work for the A330, and Aer Lingus were perfectly placed geographically to do this. EI got two A330s for pennies, and any and all spares needed to complete the ETOPS work for free. A330 #3 and 4 for the fleet were also obtained slightly used for virtually nothing from Airbus after Air Inter went bust.

Given where they were long haul pre COVID vs the Boeing days, things worked out well for them, although in the 80s or early 90s, a 757 / 767 combo probably would have been far more suitable than the 747s.

Regarding he two 767’s EI-CAL & AM, apart from global influences, it’s suggested that the Irish Government refused to remove the required Shannon Stop-over for flights leaving Ireland to the US and that also led to some delays in permission for the route to start, ultimately the aircraft were leased out or sat around DUB for a while.



No, EI were an original customer of the 747, the first 2 were ordered before the type had flown. They were in the fleet from 1971-1995 IIRC.

If you look at images of the rollout of the first 747, you’ll see the “Aer Lingus – Irish International” (as it was then) shamrock just above and ahead of the 1st door.

Prior to the 747’s, EI had 3 B720s and 4 707-300s.

JAS

[Geordie_Expat]

If memory serves (which is questionable these days), I do believe that an Aer Lingus 747 was the first 747 to land at Edinburgh after the new airport/runway opened, mid-70s, bringing fans to the Six Nations game.

[SWBKCB]

Don't forget that in the 70's EI did a lot of lease work - it wasn't just the 747's, but the 737's and 707's were often leased out during this period as well.

[ATNotts]

If memory serves (which is questionable these days), I do believe that an Aer Lingus 747 was the first 747 to land at Edinburgh after the new airport/runway opened, mid-70s, bringing fans to the Six Nations game.

EI also used the 747s on some the Cheltenham Week additional services into BHX.

[Just a spotter]

I believe the 747's were regularly deployed onto DUB-LHR over the Christmas/New Year period to accomodate the annual 'return'. 330's have been doing similar more recently.

JAS

[Una Due Tfc]

I was told by an ex EI skipper that the 747 used to do a 1 x weekly charter to MCO at one point. . all the senior crew had this one sewn up, a week layover in Florida in those days when the country was broke!

[Mooncrest]

I'm starting to think that, for Aer Lingus, the 747 was a status aeroplane to begin with but they grew to quite like it and made the best possible use of its versatility, capacity and attractiveness as a leasing aeroplane (along with its other Boeings). I'm sure there must have been opportunities in the early to mid 1970s for the company to purchase the TriStar or DC10 but they stuck faithfully with their their three jumbos. And, as was often the case with Aer Lingus, if they didn't have work for their aeroplanes, they would lease them to out to another carrier and make money from them that way.

[Una Due Tfc]

I'm starting to think that, for Aer Lingus, the 747 was a status aeroplane to begin with but they grew to quite like it and made the best possible use of its versatility, capacity and attractiveness as a leasing aeroplane (along with its other Boeings). I'm sure there must have been opportunities in the early to mid 1970s for the company to purchase the TriStar or DC10 but they stuck faithfully with their their three jumbos. And, as was often the case with Aer Lingus, if they didn't have work for their aeroplanes, they would lease them to out to another carrier and make money from them that way.

Indeed, Aer Lingus pioneered aircraft leasing. One Tony Ryan was instrumental in developing their aircraft leasing arm when he worked there, before going on to found Guinness Peat Aviation, ultimately selling that to General Electric to form GECAS, oh and in between that he founded a little know airline called Ryanair. He died a billionaire in 2007.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Don't forget that in the 70's EI did a lot of lease work - it wasn't just the 747's, but the 737's and 707's were often leased out during this period as well.

I remember that they had a United Airlines 737 flying for them in the 70's for a year or so and I think that this was to fill in a gap of lease that went on for too long of one of their own 737's. Does anyone remember this situation ?

[Mooncrest]

I remember that they had a United Airlines 737 flying for them in the 70's for a year or so and I think that this was to fill in a gap of lease that went on for too long of one of their own 737's. Does anyone remember this situation ?

I don't remember but I wonder if it was the aeroplane that ended up with Britannia as G-AZNZ ? That was a -222.

[TCU]

Caledonian, the post merger British Airtours was the airline. I loved the Aer Lingus / Cally hybrid with full EI colours and the lion rampant logo.
There are some super photo's online of G-BBAF resplendent in full Aer Lingus colours

[jensdad]

If memory serves (which is questionable these days), I do believe that an Aer Lingus 747 was the first 747 to land at Edinburgh after the new airport/runway opened, mid-70s, bringing fans to the Six Nations game.
An Aer Lingus 707 also operated the first transatlantic flight from our local as well, taking a church choir (from somewhere in South Tyneside I think) to the states :)

[Liffy 1M]

I remember that they had a United Airlines 737 flying for them in the 70's for a year or so and I think that this was to fill in a gap of lease that went on for too long of one of their own 737's. Does anyone remember this situation ?
That was EI-ASK, ex-N9066U, which was leased in for two summers: 1974 and 1975. In both cases it retained part of the United livery, as seen in the images linked below.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/firstgen737/15471208637/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/firstgen737/14797507474

[Captain Capstan]

I don't remember but I wonder if it was the aeroplane that ended up with Britannia as G-AZNZ ? That was a -222.

NZ came from United direct to Britannia.

[WHBM]

I don't know if Aer Lingus was part of ATLAS or KSSU, they certainly did a lot of third party maintenance work but it may have been that the the small fleet size was not such a problem..
I believe that outside support for their 747s beyond the considerable Dublin abilities came from BA at Heathrow.

Accounts of "off season" leasing out are around, but a number of the leases actually crossed the Aer Lingus peak season as well.Of the original pair, one was leased out full time from 1973 to 1981, initially to a Thai operator and then one with BA for years as G-BDPZ from 1976 onwards. When the Thai aircraft was due a major check the other one was sent over for a month in Spring 1975 - they really did have a surplus of capacity. They did indeed also do Hadj runs, chartered to more local carriers such as Air Algerie.

The widebody Heathrow runs have long, occasionally, been arranged at short notice, the hourly flights from Dublin might be disorganised by fog, they can't do the BA approach at Glasgow/Edinburgh of saying "well, there's a train", so by midday a 747 (and in more recent times of course an A330) would be a packed-out substitute for rwo or three delayed flights.

[dixi188]

Remember seeing 2 Aer Lingus 747s at Birmingham for the Cheltenhan Gold Cup in Feb. '88 or '89.

[BACsuperVC10]

I seem to remember they used to used 747s over the Christmas period on DUB-LHR years ago on some flights.

[goofer]

I seem to remember they used to used 747s over the Christmas period on DUB-LHR years ago on some flights.
Still no better way from SNN to DUB or BFS.
Unbeatable smiles per mile!

[Landflap]

Glad they didn't go for an alternative. In the glory days of successful Staff Travel, got from UK to JFK in their 707. Off to Barbados & back to JFK with a local mob. Aer Lingus Rep told us that there was no-chance of return to UK as all flights fully booked. Even pointed to one Colleen who had bedded down in the terminal for previous three nights. Miracles do happen ; Same Rep runs over while Girlfriend and I ponder limited options and tells us how lucky we are. Seven "O" had gone tech but a 74 was being diverted from somewhere into JFK to run the service back to Dublin. All of us sub-loaders" " on " & many in First/business, loadsa walkabout room and grins splitting most faces.