Pilot Aware or SkyEcho?

[rans6andrew]

Situation is 3 axis microlight without transponder but with SkyDemon on tablet in cockpit. Would I be better getting a PilotAware or SkyEcho to claim the Electronic Conspicuity Rebate currently on offer?

Any why?

My immediate thought is that whichever one tells me the most about aircraft coming towards me would be the best choice although that one is not obvious from a quick read of the product's blurb on the websites.

Do either of the devices do more to inform OTHER aircraft of MY position but give me less to think about?

I did see the Pilotaware presentation but the style and content didn't hold my attention and I came away knowing less than before.................

Thanks,

Rans6...................................

[mikehallam]

I am ordering SE2 on the basis that ADSB is growing and promoted by our CAA. The alternative proprietry systems, cuŕrently popular, could soon be overtaken by this pan uk band. The principal other attraction is that se2 is self contained and can be put in the best and most convenint place on board. WiFi will tell my largish screen mobile on free fms where adsb planes are. That too is stand alone. Thus no wires, panel mods etc. Must make sense as we should all expect to be required to use adsb out in the nextcouple of years.

[Cole Burner]

I have both because:

SE2 will not see other aircraft that have only PilotAware (P3i) and
PilotAware does not transmit ADSB-out, SE2 does.

I fly with PilotAware displaying traffic on the tablet because it shows other aircraft transmitting P3i, ADSB and, with some limitations, Flarm via the OGN ground stations.
SE2 will be making me more conspicuous by transmitting ADSB-out.
PilotAware does seem to show more targets than SE2 where I operate but there's little substitute for looking out - the one that gets you probably will not have either PA or SE2!

I'm sure others will have different opinions and experiences...

[UNpeople]

I used Stratux with SkyDemon but there seems to have issues with antenna refresh rate. It could get stuck totally when in the air. I am still waiting for fixes.

[Blink182]

Think that the only one the Military aircraft in the UK would pick up would be the SE2 as that transmits ADS-B

[Forfoxake]

Think that the only one the Military aircraft in the UK would pick up would be the SE2 as that transmits ADS-B

FLARM announced in 2014 "RAF Hurricane, Spitfire and Chipmunk aircraft have recently been fitted with a FLARM Collision Avoidance System."

Not sure if the rest of the BoB Memorial Flight and other RAF aircraft still have PowerFLARM.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I see it this way.

- SkyEcho makes it easier for ATC to see me

- PilotAware makes it easier for me to see other aircraft.

So, the fundamental question is which is most important to me? Making it possible to prosecute me should I ever infringe, or making it possible for me to see other traffic and avoid a collision.

Of course, in a perfect world, I can see everybody else, they can see me, and I don't infringe. In which case PAW, separate ADSB-out, and traffic feed to something like eVFR or Skydemon is the perfect solution - pretty much as Cole Burner is doing, except that he's just using the SE2 as his ADSB-out.

(And actually yes, I mostly fly aeroplanes with ADSB-out AND PAW).

G

[ETOPS]

SkyEcho makes it easier for ATC to see me


Sorry Ghengis but I'm sure the only ATC that can see ADSB in the UK is Aberdeen low level helicopter sector over the North Sea. My home base has a trial running with a dedicated monitor but the AFISO team are under strict instructions not to use it operationally.

Next time you're are flying try asking a NATS contoller if they can give you an ADSB check...........

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not long ago I got a transponder check on my mode-S for professional purposes, but I take your point. NATS screens see my code, altitude (which could be C, S, or ADS-B), and my position: but *how* they got my position is probably transparent to them.

It is I *think* being recorded somewhere however, which can then be used for prosecutions? And, admittedly not quite what I said, both SE2 and PAW will see ADSB-out.

G

[Forfoxake]

Although I am a great fan of PowerFLARM, and have had it for several years, I agree that the best solution atm is SE2 and PAW, displayed on Skydemon or similar and with audio alerts.

(unless you are in an area with lots of gliders or outwith an area covered by the OGN-R network)

[TheOddOne]

We've had ADS-B 'out' for a couple of years now using a GTX335. We needed a replacement transponder and whilst it would have been nice to support Trig, I've used their units in other aircraft and find them really fiddly, compared with the Garmin.
I find the ADS-B 'out' function really great for tracking students and hirers so as to get the next flight ready against their imminent arrival.

For ADS-B 'in' I'd initially thought of replacing the GTX335 with a GTX345 and displaying the 'in' on a new AERA 660 to replace our ageing Skymap IIIC. That seemed a shocking waste of money so I'm now exploring a GDL50R (the internally mounted hard-wired version of the GDL50 portable) into a panel-mount AERA 660. The airGizmos mount looks good, with the bare wire Garmin multi connector.
I have 3 criteria
1. NO LOOSE WIRES, units obscuring the view out or of the instruments or random tablets getting in the way.
2. Something that's going to work for low-hours students and hirers as well as our technophobe members who hire the aircraft. Some of them think that Skydemon is the latest Tom Hanks movie - a sequel to the Da Vinchi Code.
3. Cost effective.

What I'd REALLY like is to be able to feed Mode 'S' in to the AERA 660 to give the same traffic functionality as Garmin promise with the GDL50R and ADS-B 'in'. Hardly anyone round here has ADS-B 'out' but most now have 'S'.

TOO

[MarcK]

What I'd REALLY like is to be able to feed Mode 'S' in to the AERA 660 to give the same traffic functionality as Garmin promise with the GDL50R and ADS-B 'in'. Hardly anyone round here has ADS-B 'out' but most now have 'S'.
Mode 'S' by itself doesn't give position information. You need mode ES (Extended Squitter) for that.

[horizon flyer]

RANS6ANDREW a good question. I think a PAW and TRIG transponder with ADS-B would be the answer. That would give you mode C/S ADS-B and Flarm, with OGN ground station support, note a Flarm reciever can be connected directly into a PAW but costs. With Trig transponders the GPS out of the PAW can be legally input for the ADS-B out. The PAW can be connect into the audio for traffic and feed a stand alone display and wifi to the IPAD with SkyDemon at the same time. The PAW and TRG would be the best and give you max awareness and conspicuousness. Plus I think you may be able to get a rebate for the TRIG.

[Bosi72]

SE2 is both adsb in and out. No need for 2nd device such as Stratux/Stratus.. However adsb technology is still not 100% reliable, I've seen anomalies, raim outages, duplicate ghosta, disapearring traffic, etc.., yet it's nother tool in the box to have..

[horizon flyer]

AS a further point I believe I am correct that to detect both C/S transponders requires ground support in the form of a ground radar triggering the transponder to transmit. ADS-B from technical spec I think is the only standalone system with no ground support needed. I think if starting from nothing the cheapest is PAW see everything with ground support for FLARM and mode S bearing plus a transponder with ADS-B out covers all bases. An SE2 if a transponder is already fitted with no ADS-B. What do you all think?

[Forfoxake]

AS a further point I believe I am correct that to detect both C/S transponders requires ground support in the form of a ground radar triggering the transponder to transmit. ADS-B from technical spec I think is the only standalone system with no ground support needed. I think if starting from nothing the cheapest is PAW see everything with ground support for FLARM and mode S bearing plus a transponder with ADS-B out covers all bases. An SE2 if a transponder is already fitted with no ADS-B. What do you all think?
I believe TCAS operates independently of ground support but, of course, the cost is prohibitive.

Aside from that, unless you have a transponder capable of ADS-B out, I agree with you, As I said before:

"Although I am a great fan of PowerFLARM, and have had it for several years, I agree that the best solution atm is SE2 and PAW, displayed on Skydemon or similar and with audio alerts.

(unless you are in an area with lots of gliders or outwith an area covered by the OGN-R network)"

I have recently purchased SE2 and initial tests in my mainly steel tube and fabric aircraft have indicated that it is not picked up by the local OGN-R (ATOM) ground stations as well as either PAW or PowerFLARM transmissions. Imho, it would be better if SE2 had an external antenna connection (external to the set, not necessarily to the aircraft). However, I am still experimenting with the position of SE2 in the cockpit. In any event, the ADS-B out transmissions might be picked up fine by other aircraft in the air, which is the whole point!

[Biffsticksuperhero]

I find the sky echo really useful

[Curlytips]

I'm amazingly happy with current setup that bluetooths SE2 to Skydemon (with extra subscription to pick up FLARM too), and gives me verbal warnings to my headset.

[PR0PWASH]

I have fitted a PilotAware and have a its GPS connected to a Trig TT21 to give ADSB out, This gives a fair coverage of modes, but lacking the SIL 1 which I believe is needed to generate a TCAS instruction to airliners, Ishall address this by fitting a suitable GPS source (probably a TN71)

[ETOPS]

Hi Propwash

No need to do that for two reasons...
1 Commercial air transport uses your Trig transponder for TCAS avoidance
2 Almost none of these airliners use ADSB in for collision avoidance

Your current set up covers all the main scenarios today.

[PR0PWASH]

Really?, are you saying Mode S will initiate a TCAS advisory?

[horizon flyer]

I believe TCAS is based on ADS-B but requires a certified GPS input or the information is ignored by a receiving TCAS equipped aircraft, don't know why this is when was the last time your GPS was totally wrong, I think better a couple of false triggers than bumping into something, again I think the SE2 has a certified GPS so would trigger TCAS. Feeding a TRIG transponder with the GPS from a PAW, which is uncertified will not trigger TCAS. On a PAW a FLAM unit can be directly connected to it, so no ground support needed just more costs. Don't know if Flarm traffic will see you?
Other catch feeding a PAW into a transponder for a certified aircraft, the installation must be carried out by a certified engineer and signed off by them. On a permit aircraft can be fitted by you but the LAA do the signoff. Both need a flight check. So thinking about it a PAW with a mixture of ground support will tell of most things around you but with no transponder only other PAW equipped traffic will see you. With an SE2 only sees ADS-B traffic plus Flarm again I don't think it tells FLAM only traffic you are there, buts costs a little extra a year, but does tells all ADS-B traffic your position.
Now if PAW added ADS-B with a certified GPS that would be something. I think there so much computing power in a PAW they could add TCAS but the certification would be very expensive.

[ETOPS]

Really?, are you saying Mode S will initiate a TCAS advisory?

Yes - 37 years and 25,000 hrs flying Boeing 747 etc. TCAS was developed before ADSB was even thought of hence it uses transponders Mode A C or S.
There are no - repeat no - transport jets that only use ADSB in...........

I believe TCAS is based on ADS-B but requires a certified GPS

Sorry totally wrong.

The confusion is based on misunderstanding how all this airborne equipment works. The various jets I flew were gradually fitted with ADSB-out in response to ATC improvements under FANS. Areas such as the Pacific and Northern Canada now use ADSB signals for ATC as there is no possibilty of conventional radar in such remote locations. This was in addition to the already fitted TCAS and transponders and makes no difference to that.
The next development is ADSB-in to allow the display of target labels of proximate traffic with a view to "climb in trail" etc ATC functions. Non of the 777 and 747 aircraft in the airline were fitted with this and still aren't.
Some airliners do have it but not as a standalone replacement of existing TCAS/transponders thus all light aircraft with any transponder will be seen and acted upon.

The SIL=0 is of purely academic interest unless you are using a simple ADSB transmitter with no transponder and getting close to the big jets.........

[Shoestring Flyer]

From Wiki:-
'TCAS and its variants are only able to interact with aircraft that have a correctly operating mode C or mode S transponder. A unique 24-bit identifier is assigned to each aircraft that has a mode S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe#Modes) transponder.'

[Maoraigh1]

What if any, advantage would I get if I added a Trig TN70 to my Trig TN21 Mode S transponder, taking advantage of CAA grant?
I'm considering doing something, but not sure what.

[ETOPS]

You would be maximising your electronic visibility to all other airspace users.

[Shoestring Flyer]

What if any, advantage would I get if I added a Trig TN70 to my Trig TN21 Mode S transponder, taking advantage of CAA grant?
I'm considering doing something, but not sure what.

Adding a TN72 would give you ADSB to SIL=1 so that eventually ATC will be able to see you by ADSB. Currently though in the UK there is only Aberdeen ATC that can interogate ADSB to SIL=1. Not a lot of advantage at the moment really outputting to SIL=1 until ADSB is adopted by all ATC units as far as I can see.
If you are currently ouputting ADSB by ES Transponder connected to an uncertified GPS you are transmitting to SIL=0 which is fine for other GA aircraft to see you.
SE2 incidently outputs ADSB to SIL=1 in the UK