Disgusting landing fees

[md 600 driver]

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

[Robbiee]

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

Over the years an airport I (and the occasional HEMS chopper) used to frequent, one by one got rid of the lights that pointed at the helispot. Then one day they decided to repave the ramp, but didn't repaint said helispot. Finally one night I noticed some temporary barriers set up just about where that old helispot used to be (making the approach ridiculously steep) and I took the hint,...they don't want helicopters at that airport anymore.

,...and that's not the only airport in recent years that has become unfriendly to us. Seems to be a growing trend. :(

[nomorehelosforme]

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

Seeing as they only just reopened in August and are again under the newer Covid restrictions since September 22nd one would think it prudent to welcome any business rather than employing rip of tactics additional the presence of a helicopter arriving and leaving would possibly help with making people aware the place is open for business

[matthew_gbr]

Are there any costs associated with providing a rotary landing (e.g. AIP) vs. providing a car park. Not defending them, but would be curious to know what the economcis are. If there are no differences, then I agree, landing fees are ridiculous.

[rattle]

I was booked for an aerial filming mission around South Wales and one of the shots we were asked to get was of the Celtic Manor Hotel. I knew they had a pad so phoned ahead to see if we could book breakfast. They wanted a ridiculous landing fee so we skipped breakfast - and managed to forget to get a shot of the hotel for the programme going out on Channel 4....

[nomorehelosforme]

I was booked for an aerial filming mission around South Wales and one of the shots we were asked to get was of the Celtic Manor Hotel. I knew they had a pad so phoned ahead to see if we could book breakfast. They wanted a ridiculous landing fee so we skipped breakfast - and managed to forget to get a shot of the hotel for the programme going out on Channel 4....

Yet another example of corporate rules and a GM’s lack of common sense, a missed opportunity that costs nothing yet could be an excellent promotion of their business..... I didn’t learn much at school but did leave with common sense...

[B2N2]

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

How much you planned on paying for the helicopter flight there and back?
:suspect:

[rudestuff]

So in the UK you need landowners permission to avoid any issues with trespassing etc. Why not ring up, book lunch and ask them if parking is free? When they say yes - there's your permission to park your helicopter. 👍

[love flying]

If a landowner is in the business of providing helicopter landing services (by charging a fee, for example), then they have a higher duty of care towards you (than they may realise). The article here (https://helipaddy.com/owners/compliance) suggests that, in a negligence case, the "Duty required" element would probably be satisfied if landing fees are charged. It doesn't address your gripe, though, which is more to do with the high level of fees or the fact that they aren't subsidised by the room charges. I suspect they have found that some charter customers have been happy to pay the fee, especially if it is not itemised in the overall cost.

[Bell_ringer]

I guess you have to decide if paying a fee and being able to land is better or worse than not having any option at all.
Anywhere else that provides helistop facilities is going to be billing you anyway.
The question is whether or not a fee that equates to about an hour of fuel is fair or not.
They may well have a loading on their liability policy for your convenience.
Parking a helicopter is not the same as parking a volvo, different risk, different requirements for parking.

[md 600 driver]

How much you planned on paying for the helicopter flight there and back?
:suspect:
i am not sure I understand your question

[matthew_gbr]

This thread would benefit from a helipad owner who can articulate any specific time, costs and efforts that are required, e.g. addtiional ground work, insurance, licenses etc. It's entirely up to the owner to decide whether to subsidise those costs across the business or relatively direct charge them through landing fees. They might find that usage is inelastic to fees, or if it is elastic, then the loss of custom due to fees has no or negible business impact. Perhaps it just keeps away people who are penny pinchers and/or come with a sense of entitlement and/or don't understand that a business needs revenue to pay its way and its people. I love going to places where I pay a little bit more for a better class of crowd ...

[md 600 driver]

This thread would benefit from a helipad owner who can articulate any specific time, costs and efforts that are required, e.g. addtiional ground work, insurance, licenses etc. It's entirely up to the owner to decide whether to subsidise those costs across the business or relatively direct charge them through landing fees. They might find that usage is inelastic to fees, or if it is elastic, then the loss of custom due to fees has no or negible business impact. Perhaps it just keeps away people who are penny pinchers and/or come with a sense of entitlement and/or don't understand that a business needs revenue to pay its way and its people. I love going to places where I pay a little bit more for a better class of crowd ...
i do understand that a business needs to make profit , a helipad/ heliport with the proper safety equiptment ,staff ,insurance radio ,security ,licence ect is one thing.

But a area set aside at a hotel for helicopters to land at with no security I think £150 is out of the question

[matthew_gbr]

How do you know: (1) how many rotaries arrive each year; (2) what it cost them originally to make the ground solid, put fencing around, do the H, put up a windsock, etc ... might have been £10-20K of work; (3) what then costs them each year to maintain that, and to pay for insurance ... maybe it's £2K per year, or more?; (4) when for each landing, they have to prepare and keep paperwork, send staff to go and make sure people are not outside in the area of the helipad? etc. I appreciate you venting your frustration, but lets get some facts next and then decide ... £2K landing fee, yes that would be outrageous .... £30 landing fee, probably not covering yearly/total costs ... £150, hard to tell ...

[ShyTorque]

I’ve been in the UK corporate heli sector for almost twenty years and come across the full range of landing permission costs, some are free, on a please help yourself basis. One kind owner has even sent me free coffee. Many of the hotels I’ve used in the UK actually do nothing to the ground to show that it’s a designated landing site and unless asked, provide nothing other than someone to collect the fee. Some do have a marked H but some just tell you where they want you to land. The most expensive rip off price I’ve encountered was £750 to land on a school playing field. Their “extra work” consisted of putting down a single dinner plate to mark the landing spot (so the groundsman knew where to look for holes). The school was closed, no staff were on site. To arrange the landing I had to deal with a lady whose official title was “Business generation manager”. Say no more. Obviously, I had to advise the leading passenger of the outrageous cost in advance, which I was surprised to hear was accepted.

One thing that many private pilots fail to do is to gain a written permission from the CAA to land where required at some sites (which obviously costs the operator a hefty fee and the application takes time to process in an office somewhere at Gatwick). Many hotels, by their very nature/location are in what the CAA consider to be a congested area. Gaining permission to breach the 1,000 ft rule prevents the possibility of a conviction for illegal low flying. From personal experience, any complaint to the CAA is likely to be investigated! A complaint against me was made by an ex military pilot who should have known better (he obviously didn’t understand the 500 foot rule doesn’t apply if you are landing or departing, although the 1,000 ft rule does) and although it was investigated it resulted in no action taken because my flight was 100% legal.

[aa777888]

Haven't heard of this issue in the US. Have yet to experience a private landing fee at restaurants, hotels and golf courses, etc. But we do suffer from a related issue, which is that certain venues will require two or even four times the amount of liability insurance that you would normally have. These are typically large venues like stadiums or casinos, but sometimes also town fairs and the like. So you've got to go negotiate with your underwriter for a temporary increase. Most of the time not worth the effort or the expense. Sometimes they even ask to be put on the policy by name.

[Michael Gee]

Interesting to read they offer a valet service for cars free of charge but when you eat and drink 12.5% will be added to the bill.
This pilot was possibly booking for 4 poeple and would be arriving in one of his special eyecatching helicopters adding a little out of the ordinary for the hotel guests to observe and chat about.

[B2N2]

i am not sure I understand your question

You are more then willing to pay for the cost of taking a helicopter for your “$100 hamburger” but you balk at the landing fee.

Have you asked yourself what the requirements and liabilities are for having a helicopter landing area?
You think those costs shouldn’t be passed on to you somehow?

Simple math:
Permitting, licensing, insurance, maintenance pick a number.
1500/year. You accommodate an average of 10 landings/year > 150/landing please.

Or should they just up the price for lunch by 50 for everyone so could can bring a helicopter in for free?

[ApolloHeli]

You are more then willing to pay for the cost of taking a helicopter for your “$100 hamburger” but you balk at the landing fee.

Have you asked yourself what the requirements and liabilities are for having a helicopter landing area?
You think those costs shouldn’t be passed on to you somehow?

Simple math:
Permitting, licensing, insurance, maintenance pick a number.
1500/year. You accommodate an average of 10 landings/year > 150/landing please.

Or should they just up the price for lunch by 50 for everyone so could can bring a helicopter in for free?

I think you're missing some context; in the UK none of that is necessarily required and it's not unusual to just ring a place and ask if they have an open field nearby to land at so you can pop by for lunch or stay overnight. The uneven ground comes for free and there shouldn't be any associated costs for the business with having the odd helicopter stop in every now and then. By charging a landing fee they are saying 'we want this much extra money from you because you're coming by helicopter and we want more of your money' - you're not paying for any specialised staff or additional facilities that a wouldn't be necessary had you come by car. I've been to places before that simply put a tenner on the bill for the shortly endured noise for the diners (we were landing mighty close to the tables to be fair), but I agree with the OP that £150 is cheeky at best.

[B2N2]

The entitlement is rampant.
If they provide the fielding and you dig a skid during landing I am 100% certain you will litigate for damages.
Because I show up in a snazzy helicopter and give the punters something to chat about it should be free is ludicrous.
For 150 bp though I would expect a nicely manicured helipad with markings, fire extinguishers and a golf cart if needed.

My earlier point.
A R22 self fly hire rate is what 250-275/hr?
Thats 500-600 for the trip.
Nobody bats an eye at that amount.
Now this wasn’t a R22 was it?
Something bigger, maybe a turbine?
How much are those an hour?
You’re perfectly willing to pay that for what is essentially an ego trip to lunch yet you balk at the landing fee?

[Bravo73]

To B2N2: I think that you are presuming an awful lot about the OP. I would even go as far to say that you really don't have a clue.

[helipixman]

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

Well said MD600 if they want to rip you off you have the option of going elsewhere. During my time working with Lothian Helicopters we pitched up at many hotels for a meal and overnight stay and not once were we charged for landing, and overnight parking. We did this all over the UK, sometimes we even got things a little cheaper if the boss gave staff a joyride. One of the hotels even sent a porter out to carry our bags in, great service, that was near Warrington. At most of the hotels other guests loved seeing the helicopter parked there.

As for the crazy comment by B2N2... how much were you prepared to pay for the flight there and back ? That cost is already considered when you make the choice to go somewhere ! Just because you have an expensive helicopter, why do you have to pay expensive landing charges ? If I went shopping to my local Sainsburys in a Ferrari would I be asked to pay more for my parking space than someone who went in a Mini for example. It's all about great customer service and if they want your business or not, especially during these Covid times where pepole are crying out for customers. It just does not make sense. Maybe we should make up a list of friendly hotels/eateries and another list to show who are the rip off hotels .

[Bravo73]

Maybe we should make up a list of friendly hotels/eateries and another list to show who are the rip off hotels .

Waaaaaay ahead of you: https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/291166-helipads-hotels-others-requests-recommendations-rip-offs.html (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/291166-helipads-hotels-others-requests-recommendations-rip-offs.html?highlight=Landing+sites)

(1st post in 2004!)

[ShyTorque]

The entitlement is rampant.
If they provide the fielding and you dig a skid during landing I am 100% certain you will litigate for damages.
Because I show up in a snazzy helicopter and give the punters something to chat about it should be free is ludicrous.
For 150 bp though I would expect a nicely manicured helipad with markings, fire extinguishers and a golf cart if needed.

B2N2, your expectations and certainties simply don’t fit in with the way rotary aviation in UK works. The only times I’ve ever seen fire extinguishers on site is at formal events such as race meetings, where an aviation business is hired in to run the site.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a pilot trying to claim damages from a land owner from digging a skid in! There have however been cases where a pilot was prosecuted by landowners for damage caused by helicopter downwash.

[EESDL]

md600 - Grantley is used to footballers coming up from London and meeting any payment requests.
Quite amused to read some of the posts re HLS expectations in UK - windsock? Don’t make me laugh!
Glad to hear that you took your custom elsewhere

[B2N2]

To B2N2: I think that you are presuming an awful lot about the OP. I would even go as far to say that you really don't have a clue.

Well he’s a managing director and his current type is a Gazelle 342, a turbine helicopter.
Whats the operating cost an hour?
Purchase price?
That’s like showing up in a Ferrari and complaining about having to pay for valet parking.

Its an open forum and he got a dissenting opinion.
Thats all, we can still be friends :{

[Bell_ringer]

Aah footballers, the root of all evil in the formerly-United-Kingdom :E
The silly public can't tell the difference between one helicopter and another, and get the whole caste system completely wrong.
If they knew it was a Gaz and what it costs on the Yugoslavian register to keep it taped together in one piece, then they would probably have sent a hat round to collect a few sheckles to help and sponsored lunch for someone clearly in need. :}

[Uplinker]

I would have thought that if a hotel owner; on receiving a request for a helicopter to land, needed to get someone in to clear and mow the the landing area, put up a rope fence to keep everyone safely distant, (or police the area in person to keep guests clear), and take out an insurance policy for that one helicopter landing and subsequent take-off - then £150 sounds very reasonable.

[ShyTorque]

Uplinker, yes then it would be reasonable....but in general, hotels don’t do that. As I wrote above, the only time preparations such as the ones you mentioned are made would be at special events when a specialist company is brought in. At a hotel? Very little chance, I regret to say.

A hotel taking out an insurance? That responsibility is put squarely on the helicopter operator. That’s why we are required to have insurance coverage for up to many millions of pounds.

I must say, comments here show how little some people know about real world helicopter operations.

[RMK]

MD600Driver, thanks for the note on Grantley Hall, I will avoid them no matter what type of transport I’m using on the day. Also, good to list these locations on the HCGB blacklist and the ongoing thread “Helipads & Hotels: Requests, Recommendations & Rip-offs https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/291166-helipads-hotels-others-requests-recommendations-rip-offs.html (https://www.pprune.org/!291166!https:/www.pprune.org/rotorheads/291166-helipads-hotels-others-requests-recommendations-rip-offs.html?highlight=Landing+sites) as noted above.

B2N2, you exemplify the internet post preamble of “I don’t know anything about X, but here’s what I think about X”. You seem more of a disgruntled salary jockey with condemnation of anyone that flies privately with their family and friends.

In 15yrs of flying in the UK, I’ve never paid a hotel/restaurant/pub a landing fee when I am landing there for either breakfast, lunch, dinner or an overnight stay – no one should, it sets a bad precedent.

For the American posters that don’t understand how this works in Europe (particularly “B2N2” who thinks we should pay a few hundred pounds to land and bring them business by having dinner or booking hotel rooms):

- private flying for pleasure/recreation is far more common in Europe than US and self-fly-hire rental is easily found and available (it’s not all CPL factories; you can actually do this for fun)

- we have a large number of hotels/restaurants/pubs available to land and the vast majority are free, so long as you are eating/staying.

- the comments above regarding “facilities” are laughable; because those of us who actually do this know we’re merely instructed to land on a bit lawn or an adjacent field. Out of around 80-90 private sites I’ve landed in the UK only 1 even has a windsock – and it is situated right next to a tree rendering it useless (it’s really just for show as the hotel appreciates pilots visiting).

- approval procedure is normally just giving them a call; maybe filling out a form and possibly sending a copy of your insurance in some instances. Any mention of a landing fee is met by “no thanks, I’ll book elsewhere” to which they reply they’d welcome a visit in the future, if driving – to which I reply “you just tried to charge me £250 and you think I’m planning a future visit?

[Bell_ringer]

It's a similar situation over here, fortunately no footballers to ripoff and there isn't a culture of litigation nor health and safety.
Outside of licensed facilities no one charges, little more than the occasional indemnity and request to not overfly a grumpy neighbour.
One resort kindly provides a driver - they figure if you can arrive by helicopter then they should make it easy for you to spend your money.
Maybe here it is still a novelty for the landowner and their patrons.
Inevitably someone will bring their son or daughter for a look and we'll encourage them to sit in the cockpit, headset on for a family pic, though we do warn them that they may be comitting the family to flight-training and bankruptcy when little Johnnie gets bigger.

Funny how different cultures treat aviation, differently.

Perhaps you just have people that want it to be overly exclusive and convince the Robbie's to go elsewhere :E
I suppose it's their choice to try extract money from you and yours to decline.
It's not like their target market is fly-ins, what have they got to lose? I can understand the mentality.

[Brilliant Stuff]

Work had us stay overnight at the Celtic manor they charged £6 for parking the car.........says it all.

[matthew_gbr]

In order for Grantley Hall to provide you with a helipad (it looks like a nice one they put effort into with well kept ground, concrete permitter and walking path, search google for "grantley hall helipad" and find the facebook video ... and when I look on Google Maps, is that even a waiting room / building they put in as well?), it appears they also spent time, effort and cost on planning application (Harrogate Borough Council 18/04483/FUL, "The use of land for a helipad | Grantley Hall Stephenson Bridge To Grantley Hall And West Lodge Grantley HG4 3ET", 23 consultations ....) only to have their neighbours hate them (39 public comments, 38 objections ...). So by all means, show them up for the money grubbing non-helicopter friendly people they are! How dare they not allow you to land your £300K helicopter for free! It's an outrage against your human rights !

[ShyTorque]

In order for Grantley Hall to provide you with a helipad (it looks like a nice one they put effort into with well kept ground, concrete permitter and walking path, search google for "grantley hall helipad" and find the facebook video ... and when I look on Google Maps, is that even a waiting room / building they put in as well?), it appears they also spent time, effort and cost on planning application (Harrogate Borough Council 18/04483/FUL, "The use of land for a helipad | Grantley Hall Stephenson Bridge To Grantley Hall And West Lodge Grantley HG4 3ET", 23 consultations ....) only to have their neighbours hate them (39 public comments, 38 objections ...). So by all means, show them up for the money grubbing non-helicopter friendly people they are! How dare they not allow you to land your £300K helicopter for free! It's an outrage against your human rights !

I see you have a PPLA. How much would you be prepared to pay at a minor airfield?

[matthew_gbr]

I see you have a PPLA. How much would you be prepared to pay at a minor airfield?

That's disingenuous and not relevant. The genuine and relevant question is: with my PPLA, how much would I be prepared to pay for a landing fee at a minor airfield, or a landing fee at the grass strip at the Hall? For a minor airfield, which is in the business of aviation and has a higher frequency of flights, I would expect them to price carefully: landing fees not too high so as to put off people, and not too low so as to go out of business. £150 would be too high. If the Hall had it's own grass landing strip, so I could fly in and park for lunch, I'd consider £150 a not unexpected price for the nature and quality of the establishment. In the totality of the experience, I'd think £150 not great (don't we all want lower prices!) but reasonable and far under the nature of the circumstances.

If I go to the Lanesborough for lunch, whether with my Fiesta, Beemer or Rolls, I choose either the Lansborough's valet parking (likely to be high), or the parking garage down the street (much lower). I understand why for their facilities and other reasons, the valet parking fee is high. I don't bleat blue murder about it because I kind of expect that it goes with the territory. I don't expect to be given free valet parking. It's a free market and basic economics ...

[toptobottom]

I was booked for an aerial filming mission around South Wales and one of the shots we were asked to get was of the Celtic Manor Hotel. I knew they had a pad so phoned ahead to see if we could book breakfast. They wanted a ridiculous landing fee so we skipped breakfast - and managed to forget to get a shot of the hotel for the programme going out on Channel 4....
Celtic Manor has changed its policy and doesn’t charge for guests (I landed and stayed overnight a couple of weeks ago). Not sure if its definition of ‘guest’ distinguishes between residents and visiting diners.

[aa777888]

For the American posters that don’t understand how this works in Europe (particularly “B2N2” who thinks we should pay a few hundred pounds to land and bring them business by having dinner or booking hotel rooms):

- private flying for pleasure/recreation is far more common in Europe than US and self-fly-hire rental is easily found and available (it’s not all CPL factories; you can actually do this for fun)This is not entirely untrue for the US. For example, there are three folks checked out by the school I lease back to who SFH my R44 quite regularly. However I can't speak to how the US and EU compare in this respect overall. Certainly there's plenty of SFH fixed wing op's, not 100% sure where the US industry stands on this for rotary wing.

- we have a large number of hotels/restaurants/pubs available to land and the vast majority are free, so long as you are eating/staying.
That certainly is true, at least in the northeast. I really do wish there were more commercial properties to land at. Off the top of my head I can think of only a half dozen or so across ME/NH/VT. I'm probably missing a few inns here or there.

- the comments above regarding “facilities” are laughable; because those of us who actually do this know we’re merely instructed to land on a bit lawn or an adjacent field. Out of around 80-90 private sites I’ve landed in the UK only 1 even has a windsock – and it is situated right next to a tree rendering it useless (it’s really just for show as the hotel appreciates pilots visiting).The US experience is identical in this respect.

- approval procedure is normally just giving them a call; maybe filling out a form and possibly sending a copy of your insurance in some instances. Any mention of a landing fee is met by “no thanks, I’ll book elsewhere” to which they reply they’d welcome a visit in the future, if driving – to which I reply “you just tried to charge me £250 and you think I’m planning a future visit?Again, the US experience is identical in this respect. Never heard of a landing fee at an off-airport facility in the US, but sometimes unworkable insurance requirements.

[ShyTorque]

Matthew gbr,
My question was not at all meant to be disingenuous. It was actually a valid and sincere question.
But as far as what is relevant to the subject, valet parking of a car (irrespective of how much the car is worth) has absolutely nothing to do with landing a helicopter.
The point here is that a landing fee (or any other type of charge) can be expected in most circumstances. The discussion is whether or not a landing charge is reasonable for the level of service provided. As I said before, I've encountered a landing charge on a school field that was five times as much as this hotel wanted. Totally unreasonable in the view of most folk, I suspect.

[Field Required]

150 coins is pretty steep if you'd ask me.

[Bell_ringer]

Shy, how can you quantify what is, ooh I'll risk saying it - reasonable - if you don't know what (if?) costs they incurred?
Looking at the planning application summary, they seem to have had a healthy number of consulting organisations (roads, environment, airspace, yada yada) to support the application.
I doubt it was a zero-cost/zero-effort process, and from the pics, they have at least spent a little bit of wedge on actual facilities.
I don't know market conditions in the area, but what is globally accepted, is anyone that calls themselves a consultant in a specialist area does not come cheap.
All this for what is quite an upmarket location where you're in for 35+ squid for a cocktail and a chicken skewer, so it comes with the territory, I suppose.

[RMK]

This is not entirely untrue for the US. For example, there are three folks checked out by the school I lease back to who SFH my R44 quite regularly. However I can't speak to how the US and EU compare in this respect overall. Certainly there's plenty of SFH fixed wing op's, not 100% sure where the US industry stands on this for rotary wing.

Here in London, I can pick up the phone right now and hire an R44 at about 6 different locations all a short drive from my home. That doesn't exist anywhere in the US, not even near a wealth centre like New York or Los Angeles (where they manufacture them). The US does have fantastic availability/pricing for fixed wing though. I've hired helicopters in FL, NC, VA and CA and it is always a painful process to find an R44 for hire. My last SFH of an R44 in the US was at Total Flight Solutions in Louisburg NC; nice guys but was 2.5hrs drive from where I was actually staying and second choice was even further away (5hrs drive) on the western side of the state.

To compare places places to land (sure you're familiar w/ HeliPaddy app), here's a screenshot of landing spots for the southern UK:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1490x778/sites_6a82ee79626847302d87cbe11432193a56043623.jpg

[Bravo73]

Looking at the planning application summary, they seem to have had a healthy number of consulting organisations (roads, environment, airspace, yada yada) to support the application.
I doubt it was a zero-cost/zero-effort process, and from the pics, they have at least spent a little bit of wedge on actual facilities.


Don’t view the helipad planning application in isolation.

£70m (if not more) was spent on the recent renovation of Grantley Hall. Judging by the type of guests that they are trying to attract, a helipad would have always been part of the plan.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/homes-and-gardens/valeria-sykes-aims-turn-grantley-hall-best-country-house-hotel-and-spa-north-england-sharon-dale-reports-pictures-gary-longbottom-158771

[helipixman]

Well he’s a managing director and his current type is a Gazelle 342, a turbine helicopter.
Whats the operating cost an hour?
Purchase price?
That’s like showing up in a Ferrari and complaining about having to pay for valet parking.

Its an open forum and he got a dissenting opinion.
Thats all, we can still be friends :{

So what if he is a managing director and has a 342 Gazelle, his opinion matters, he has worked bloody hard for all he has and good luck to him and he is just pointing out what he thinks. Maybe thats why he has what he has, he does not expect to be ripped off and will not tolerate it. If a hotel or restaurant with a helipad wants your custom and you are either going to eat there or stay overnight then perhaps the landing fee should be waived. Different matter if you are just using the helipad as a drop in point and going elsewhere. It all comes down to do they really want your custom. Looks like Grantley Hall don't and have shot themselves in the foot, I suspect not many pilots/owners will use the place after reading this.

[matthew_gbr]

Matthew gbr,
My question was not at all meant to be disingenuous. It was actually a valid and sincere question.
But as far as what is relevant to the subject, valet parking of a car (irrespective of how much the car is worth) has absolutely nothing to do with landing a helicopter.
The point here is that a landing fee (or any other type of charge) can be expected in most circumstances. The discussion is whether or not a landing charge is reasonable for the level of service provided. As I said before, I've encountered a landing charge on a school field that was five times as much as this hotel wanted. Totally unreasonable in the view of most folk, I suspect.

Well, what's unreasonable?

Cartier sell high end watches for really high prices, is that unreasonable?
If you don't like it, you can buy a Casio.

School decides to charge a high price. You don't like it, go elsewhere. A helicopter and a landing pad are not an essential service. There are other options.
The local restaurant gets visited by Tom Hanks and decides to charge x5 to sit at the table he sat at. Is that unreasonable? Nope, just don't sit there.

Gatwick charges a large prices to land GA aircraft. How unreasonable. What an outrage, they are certainly not GA friendly! We need cheaper access to Gatwick ...
On a philosophical level, for exampel, the US is GA friendly, which is funny because they are generally a user-pays society and so the subsidising of GA costs at large airports could be argued to place a cost on all other users at large airports who can't afford to own or be involved in GA, and they should be outraged that some percentage of their airfares are going to commercial operating costs which then pay for GA.
Why should the helipad landing fees be really low and subsidised by other guests at the hotel (however small their subsidy).
Why not the school profit a bit from monied up helicopter pilots to help their coffers?

On the other hand, a local state primary school charges a high price for uniforms. That's pretty unreasonable, as education is mandatory, and the costs need to be reasonable for access to all.

Anyway, I think the real test here is to ask some non aviation people:

"My friend the Managing Director in his £300K helicopter is irate because he can't fly into a swanky manor and have a high end lunch for free, he has to pay £150 landing fee."

See what the response is ...

[Bell_ringer]

It all comes down to do they really want your custom. Looks like Grantley Hall don't and have shot themselves in the foot, I suspect not many pilots/owners will use the place after reading this.

Looking at the place, they seem to be after a specific type of clientele, and if the fee is unpalatable, you're probably not in the demographic.

I do find the "how very dare they" attitude amongst private pilots for not having the red carpet rolled out, with a flock of palm waiving virgins to follow them around, somewhat amusing.
In the business world the H doesn't mean helicopter, it's HAVE your wallet ready :}

[RMK]

School decides to charge a high price. You don't like it, go elsewhere.

Gatwick charges a large prices to land GA aircraft. How unreasonable. .

Your logic and reasoning seems limited at best. A school doesn't want a flow of visitors; Gatwick sure as hell doesn't want a bunch of small private aircraft; but if you're willing to pay a silly/punitive price both will accommodate.

Conversely, a hotel with a restaurant does indeed wish to have visitors.

[srjumbo747]

Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?

Get real. People are having houses repossessed and selling their cars to make ends meet.

Enjoy your lunch.

[Bell_ringer]

Conversely, a hotel with a restaurant does indeed wish to have visitors.

But do they want them all arriving in a helicopter?
methinks not.

[Bravo73]

it appears they also spent time, effort and cost on planning application (Harrogate Borough Council 18/04483/FUL, "The use of land for a helipad | Grantley Hall Stephenson Bridge To Grantley Hall And West Lodge Grantley HG4 3ET"

In this case (Grantley Hall), I think that there might be more to it than meets the eye.

After having a quick look at the planning application, GH had applied for 1000 helicopter movements per year, with up to 28 in one day. This application wasn't refused, it was withdrawn.

Therefore, presuming that another application hasn't been approved since 2018, then maybe they have to limit their movements to 28 days a year. Maybe the management of GH are using the high landing fee of £150 to try to manage that number?

[Bravo73]

Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?


No, we are discussing something which directly effects our livelihoods.

The 'entitlement' opinions seem to be coming from fixed wing pilots, either private or 747s (for some reason).

[ShyTorque]

Shy, how can you quantify what is, ooh I'll risk saying it - reasonable - if you don't know what (if?) costs they incurred?
Looking at the planning application summary, they seem to have had a healthy number of consulting organisations (roads, environment, airspace, yada yada) to support the application.
I doubt it was a zero-cost/zero-effort process, and from the pics, they have at least spent a little bit of wedge on actual facilities.
I don't know market conditions in the area, but what is globally accepted, is anyone that calls themselves a consultant in a specialist area does not come cheap.
All this for what is quite an upmarket location where you're in for 35+ squid for a cocktail and a chicken skewer, so it comes with the territory, I suppose.

The way to quantify what is reasonable is subjective but if it were my problem I'd simply ask what one gets considering the price asked. Although the hotel in question certainly appears to have reserved a grass circle for a helicopter to be landed, next to a building of some sort and laid a few flagstones to the perimeter path of the grounds, I don't see a windsock, a fire extinguisher, or even an 'H' marking. The cost of providing those facilities would probably not have been very high. If I were footing the bill as per the OP's post, I would simply ask if I was prepared to pay a surcharge of £150 on my lunch, rather than paying nothing extra to arrive by Rolls Royce or Bentley. I doubt they will get a large number of takers at the price being asked. Other similar places, as already stated, charge nothing at all, or far less, to land a helicopter provided that the occupants are using the hotel facilities.

[matthew_gbr]

Your logic and reasoning seems limited at best. A school doesn't want a flow of visitors; Gatwick sure as hell doesn't want a bunch of small private aircraft; but if you're willing to pay a silly/punitive price both will accommodate.

Conversely, a hotel with a restaurant does indeed wish to have visitors.

Exactly my logic. A hotel with a restaurant doesn't exactly need to have HELICOPTER visitors. And if they do, maybe they don't need to have CHEAP helicopter visitors, and seem to find that on the supply and demand curve, they succeed by charging a landing fee and get the type of visitors who spend and tip well.

[srjumbo747]

No, we are discussing something which directly effects our livelihoods.

The 'entitlement' opinions seem to be coming from fixed wing pilots, either private or 747s (for some reason).
Affect not Effect

[Bravo73]

Affect not Effect

Well done, you. We look forward to your next contribution to the discussion.

[ShyTorque]

Exactly my logic. A hotel with a restaurant doesn't exactly need to have HELICOPTER visitors. And if they do, maybe they don't need to have CHEAP helicopter visitors, and seem to find that on the supply and demand curve, they succeed by charging a landing fee and get the type of visitors who spend and tip well.

That logic means that they might get fewer helicopter visitors, full stop. From what has been posted, the management obviously thought they DID need to spend out to provide a helicopter landing point. Surely, to best recoup the cost of providing it, the helipad should have full use. It obviously will not.

[Bell_ringer]

Affect not Effect

So that's where I have been going wrong with my hovering.. Loss of tailrotor Affect

[toptobottom]

If a hotel provides certain additional facilities, obviously each of those required investment. The quality and number of the facilities is a decision for the hotel, the policies that it observes, the star rating it aspires to have and maybe the clientele it wants to attract. Facilities might include a swimming pool, a tennis court, a gym, etc. Generally, these are designed to make the hotel more attractive and the cost of investment is recouped through increased rack rates; the more and better the facilities, the higher the price. Most hotels I've landed at provide very little in the form of landing services; occasionally, a member of staff (typically, completely untrained) will be present in a hi-viz to make sure residents aren't in the way of an arrival/departure, otherwise, it's just a designated area and you're on your own. Charging a fee to arrive, just because a guest happens to arrive by helicopter, is greedy and unfair. The Rolls driver isn't charged to cover the cost of building the hotel's car park, so why should the heli pilot be charged, even if the facility needs extra resources? I've persuaded several hotels (and even the Handpicked group) to waive landing fees and as a result, I use these (read: 'spend much more money') far more frequently than those that haven't.

[nomorehelosforme]

Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?

Get real. People are having houses repossessed and selling their cars to make ends meet.

Enjoy your lunch.


Get real, people are buying more homes than those getting them repossessed hence why house prices are going through the roof... this is the basis of economics supply and demand.
Plenty of people are still working and making money and correct me if I'm wrong they can spend said money on whatever they want, so what if they have their own helicopter, so what if they want to spend 100's on Sunday lunch its their money and therefore their choice. The OP wasn't bragging about what he has or hasn't got was merely talking about a landing fee that he felt was unjust.

[B2N2]

Thousands of people in aviation losing their jobs and we’re massaging someone’s ego about £150 to land their own helicopter?

Get real. People are having houses repossessed and selling their cars to make ends meet.

Enjoy your lunch.

Thank you.

I must say, comments here show how little some people know about real world helicopter operations.

Really ? :E
Why don’t you explain it again for us Chavs?
You’re (probably) flying a turbine helicopter with 4 people on an egotrip to lunch and you have the audacity to complain about 150 quid when your trip (probably) cost you a couple thousand?

An R-22 student on a solo XC complaining about a 15 bp landing fee I would understand and have sympathy for.
This individual because somehow you consider yourselves “special”...no not a thread of sympathy.
None..ZERO.

[BirdmanBerry]

That's disingenuous and not relevant. The genuine and relevant question is: with my PPLA, how much would I be prepared to pay for a landing fee at a minor airfield, or a landing fee at the grass strip at the Hall? For a minor airfield, which is in the business of aviation and has a higher frequency of flights, I would expect them to price carefully: landing fees not too high so as to put off people, and not too low so as to go out of business. £150 would be too high. If the Hall had it's own grass landing strip, so I could fly in and park for lunch, I'd consider £150 a not unexpected price for the nature and quality of the establishment. In the totality of the experience, I'd think £150 not great (don't we all want lower prices!) but reasonable and far under the nature of the circumstances.

If I go to the Lanesborough for lunch, whether with my Fiesta, Beemer or Rolls, I choose either the Lansborough's valet parking (likely to be high), or the parking garage down the street (much lower). I understand why for their facilities and other reasons, the valet parking fee is high. I don't bleat blue murder about it because I kind of expect that it goes with the territory. I don't expect to be given free valet parking. It's a free market and basic economics ...

https://www.flymac.co.uk/trip-report-charlton-park-airfield/

Charlton Park, Where the Duke actually assists with permissions etc. costs just £20 to land.

[Bravo73]

Blah, blah, blah.

Like I’ve already said, you really don’t have a clue.

[ShyTorque]

B2N2, Maybe in your rush to put forward your strong personal opinion you are failing to absorb who has actually written what and jumping to incorrect conclusions.

I only fly helicopters for a living and have been doing so for over forty years. Whatever flying ego I had was probably satisfied many years ago in my earlier, military career. I have never flown a helicopter anywhere for my own personal use and have never hired one. At any landing site I’m required to go to, the customers get the fancy lunch, and have to pay all the bills, not me. On my days off, tbh I can find better things to do than go to expensive hotels for lunch because I’ve never been one for busman’s holidays. I’m more likely to be found scratching around on an old motorcycle at a roadside cafe.

[EESDL]

It’s quite alarming how some posters are quite happy to miss the point of the OP completely.
Grantley Hall was renovated using ex-Mrs Sykes’ divorce settlement.
Helipad provided to entertain Southerners and their expensive whims.
Hotel can only exist if they have specific guests.
Guests who don’t want to pay an extortionate fee to spend further money at the establishment can go elsewhere.
Hotel which applies extortionate fee sets its stall out early- attitude which probably is not limited just to helipad fees.
It’s an impressive renovation but you can tell for whom it was renovated for.
In my simple mind - a hotel to charge a fee for a guest when nothing extra has been provided is a hotel that is both short-sighted and discriminating. In the same manner as I would not stay in a hotel if they charged extra for me to park my car at their location.

[NutLoose]

Many moons ago An RAF helicopter from Odiham agreed to drop off a guy going on leave at nearby Speke airport, when it was still operational.

They were worried about getting the landing fees for what was really an unofficial drop-off, so hover taxied in, then sitting in the hover the guy jumped out and the crewman passed his bag down to him.

The helicopter then departed and lo and behold an invoice arrived at Odiham for the landing fees, the crew pointed out It hadn’t physically landed, Speke looked at it and realised It hadn’t so had to cancel the fee. :)

[srjumbo747]

It’s quite alarming how some posters are quite happy to miss the point of the OP completely.
Grantley Hall was renovated using ex-Mrs Sykes’ divorce settlement.
Helipad provided to entertain Southerners and their expensive whims.
Hotel can only exist if they have specific guests.
Guests who don’t want to pay an extortionate fee to spend further money at the establishment can go elsewhere.
Hotel which applies extortionate fee sets its stall out early- attitude which probably is not limited just to helipad fees.
It’s an impressive renovation but you can tell for whom it was renovated for.
In my simple mind - a hotel to charge a fee for a guest when nothing extra has been provided is a hotel that is both short-sighted and discriminating. In the same manner as I would not stay in a hotel if they charged extra for me to park my car at their location.
Then can I respectfully suggest you do not try to park in any decent airport hotel or indeed any hotel in a main city in the USA!

[Bell_ringer]

The cornerstone of the capitalist system is: willing buyer, willing seller.

The concept of exclusivity and cost exists in most places, from fine dining restaurants to golf courses.

Does carnoustie do anything magical to their links that justifies the difference in cost to a local club? Not really but they are packed.
Is Dinner by Heston justified for charging what they do for a roasted pineapple? Definitely not, but they are also full.

No one forces any one to go to these places.
Yet when I go read internet reviews of a high-end restaurant there will be 1-star reviews.
The most common one is from the bloke that has had a terrible time and taken them apart not because the food was average, but the cost was "ridiculous".
Yet they knew this in advance, still went for a meal and was irritated the whole time.

Value for money is a concept that varies depending who you are and what you consider important or enjoyable.
The most I have spend on a meal out was around 1000 pounds a head at a lovely place in Oslo, it was the meal of a lifetime, but I have spent a tenner on lunch and felt ripped off.
Each to their own, don't blame a proprietor for having a market.
No one spends 70M if you aren't going to get a healthy return.

Topic officially beaten to death by handbags.

[topradio]

I think that it's very simple, the hotel has set itself up as 'high end' to attract 'VIP's' as such they will have to provide a pad in the event that some footballer or perhaps the Queen would like to visit but they really don't want it used by just anybody. So if Mr Chav in his 44 decides he would like to land there they are going to charge like a wounded bull to discourage or at least penalise him if he absolutely insists.
For the same reason many 'top end' car dealers don't conduct their own MOT's because if they did, they would be obliged to accept any car for test just so Joe Soap can say he took his car to a Ferrari garage.
THEY DON'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS, they are above all that.

[RMK]

I would ask the forum/thread to please stop using “football players” as some vaunted income or social bracket. Among the business and finance sector, this socio-economic group is a pariah and not really welcome anywhere (dodgy nightclubs excepted).

In the big picture, they don’t really make/have that much money and providing financial services to them is deemed the “dirty side” of finance.

[Bravo73]

...but they really don't want it used by just anybody.

That's really not the case here. Have a look at the planning permission that GH submitted. They applied for 1000 movements (500 take-offs & 500 landings) per year, with up to 28 on a single day.

The locals were concerned about a 'new airport' being established on their doorstep.

[ericferret]

Ask for loads, planning authority knock it down to what you want.

[topradio]

@RMK you may not like it but footballers are considered VIP's, not the same as Royalty but in the Instagram world they are. Their money is no more dirty than Prince Charles's. Perhaps we should talk about top F1 drivers instead.

@Bravo73 Perhaps they reconsidered their business model?

[RMK]

After four pages of moaning and hearing “B2N2” cry about rich folk going to lunch via helicopter, I picked up the phone and called them myself. My result, was:

ME “I’ll be in the area next month and interested in a possible lunch booking; I’ll be arriving by helicopter, is that OK?

Hotel “Yes, we just ask for a completed form and copy of your insurance

ME “That’s customary; is there a landing fee if I have a lunch booking?”

Hotel “No Sir, there’s no charge, just let us know the dates you’re interested in”



...I can only assume I have a more soothing telephone voice than the OP.

[NoelEvans]

Hi just arranged to book lunch at Grantley hall near Ripon for lunch tomorrow. Managed to get reservation then I was told landing fee is £150
I told them no way that’s scandalous , there’s no charge to park there in a car .

places like this want promoting as HELICOPTER NOT FRIENDLY GO ELSEWHERE

md 600 driver,

If you are after a pleasant lunch in the area, could I suggest a very pleasant Hall just west of the A1, near J47? Helicopters do land there, although I don't know any details relating to their 'treatment' there.

[gazpad]

After four pages of moaning and hearing “B2N2” cry about rich folk going to lunch via helicopter, I picked up the phone and called them myself. My result, was:

ME “I’ll be in the area next month and interested in a possible lunch booking; I’ll be arriving by helicopter, is that OK?

Hotel “Yes, we just ask for a completed form and copy of your insurance

ME “That’s customary; is there a landing fee if I have a lunch booking?”

Hotel “No Sir, there’s no charge, just let us know the dates you’re interested in”



...I can only assume I have a more soothing telephone voice than the OP.

Or they have a google alert up for their hotel name and are aware of this thread...

It is a nice summary of emotions towards helicopter pilots though!

[Bell_ringer]

RMK, did you tell them Helicopter pilots matter! :E

[John R81]

Gazpad - That's also my approach. If there is a landing fee, I simply thank them,don't make the booking and look for somewhere else I would like to go that wants the business. There are plenty of great places in UK that don't try to rip you off.

[JulieAndrews]

Off there later this month so will let you know if my night was ruined by noisy helicopters ;-)

[helipixman]

If all else fails try this !

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/644x349/cop_fabba875cfada42be800a2f19523cd7923b6b784.jpg

[nomorehelosforme]

Or they have a google alert up for their hotel name and are aware of this thread...

It is a nice summary of emotions towards helicopter pilots though!

I clearly have too much time on my hands, did a similar exercise today with 6 high end Hotel locations in the South East that have landing areas within their grounds... Fees ranged from zero to 250 pounds, the higher fees in some instances were suddenly reduced to zero when you mention “I’ve been here before, or I regularly fly in with clients “

Seems like BS still works in all industries!

[MENELAUS]

If all else fails try this !

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/644x349/cop_fabba875cfada42be800a2f19523cd7923b6b784.jpg
That looks like it’s adjacent to the A55, North Wales. Quite close to Michael Owen’s place ? Talking about footballers and decadence, he used to commute daily by helicopter from there to training in Newcastle as he didn’t want to leave his stud farm for too long at a stretch !!

[Bravo73]

That looks like it’s adjacent to the A55, North Wales.

Not Wales, Australia: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3573415/peckish-pilot-lands-helicopter-outside-sydney-mcdonalds-for-the-ultimate-happy-meal/

[MENELAUS]

I was close then !!! 😝