A couple of questions

[Finningley Boy]

Hi all,

Yes, a couple of questions, the first is, were the Hunter Squadrons in Germany dedicated to the Day Fighter role or were they equally balanced with Close Air Support duties.
Second question, the AMS or ASM programme referred to the construction of Hardened Aircraft Shelters, but does anyone know what the initials stood for?

Many thanks,

FB

[Timelord]

Aircraft / Airfield Survivability Measures??

Germany Hunters before my time.

[Finningley Boy]

Aircraft / Airfield Survivability Measures??

Germany Hunters before my time.
Many thanks Timelord,

My belief is until they were decimated from 1957 onwards, especially as they were particularly numerous, the Hunter Squadrons of 2 TAF, were both Day Interceptor and G/A Fighter with equal demand. If some can confirm or correct?

FB

[MAINJAFAD]

Hi all,

Yes, a couple of questions, the first is, were the Hunter Squadrons in Germany dedicated to the Day Fighter role or were they equally balanced with Close Air Support duties.
Second question, the AMS or ASM programme referred to the construction of Hardened Aircraft Shelters, but does anyone know what the initials stood for?

Many thanks,

FB

Airfield Survival Measures according to the files about the HAS construction in the National Archives.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=airfield+survival+measures+

[kenparry]

The Hunters in Germany prior to the Sandys white paper were all Air Defence, no ground attack role as far as I know. As air defenders they (and the Javelins) were replaced by the 2 Lightning sqns, 19 & 92, which moved from Leconfield to Gutersloh. No Hunter FGA9s were based in Germany, but 1 (& probably 54) Sqn from West Raynham did exercise the role there - it was one of the war plan options.

The final Hunters in RAF Germany were FR10s, 2 & 4 Sqns, at Gutersloh, from about 1960 to about 1970, then replaced by Harrier sqns.

[MAINJAFAD]

The Hunters in Germany prior to the Sandys white paper were all Air Defence, no ground attack role as far as I know. As air defenders they (and the Javelins) were replaced by the 2 Lightning sqns, 19 & 92, which moved from Leconfield to Gutersloh. No Hunter FGA9s were based in Germany, but 1 (& probably 54) Sqn from West Raynham did exercise the role there - it was one of the war plan options.

The final Hunters in RAF Germany were FR10s, 2 & 4 Sqns, at Gutersloh, from about 1960 to about 1970, then replaced by Harrier sqns.

This document covers the RAF in Germany in quite some depth, only mention I've seen in it about Hunters is in the Day Fighter role (mostly axed in post 1957 and what was left then replaced by the Javelin) plus the fighter recce role which were replaced by the Harrier. There was no real role for the GA Hunters between 1957 and 1968 due to the NATO Tripwire "can of instant sunshine chuck fest" war plan of that period.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-22A-RAF-in-Germany.pdf

[Finningley Boy]

This document covers the RAF in Germany in quite some depth, only mention I've seen in it about Hunters is in the Day Fighter role (mostly axed in post 1957 and what was left then replaced by the Javelin) plus the fighter recce role which were replaced by the Harrier. There was no real role for the GA Hunters between 1957 and 1968 due to the NATO Tripwire "can of instant sunshine chuck fest" war plan of that period.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-22A-RAF-in-Germany.pdf
Much appreciated Mainjafad, one more qickly, can you recall what TDS stood for in relation to the Strike Squadrons, at Bruggen and Laarbruch?

FB

[NutLoose]

Have a read under RAF Jever re wing etc, then the Sqns and the rest of the site, it’s a cracking compilation.

Jever Steam Laundry - Home Page (http://www.rafjever.org/index.htm)

[MAINJAFAD]

Much appreciated Mainjafad, one more qickly, can you recall what TDS stood for in relation to the Strike Squadrons, at Bruggen and Laarbruch?

FB

Having never served in RAFG, I wouldn't have a clue and the closest I got to working with anything nuclear was helping finish off a operators control simulator for the Weapon Storage System fitted in the HAS's just before the RAF binned the WE-177 in the late 1990s.What does the term TDS relate to??

[NutLoose]

RAF Uxbridge, north west of London was, and is, a major RAF administrative unit. Towards the end of the war ‘platoons’ of RAF Warrant Officers were despatched from Uxbridge to re-establish ‘discipline’ amongst the 2TAF units. In particular the RAF hierarchy did not approve of the 2TAF ‘habit’ of wearing Army battledress – a sensible precaution, since many 2TAF groundcrew wearing RAF battledress were shot, having been mistaken for Germans in the forward area. Other Uxbridge innovations included the re-introduction of room inspections and drill. These Warrant Officers were not popular – especially with NCO aircrew.

Well you learn something every day, I didn’t know that.

[Timelord]

Much appreciated Mainjafad, one more qickly, can you recall what TDS stood for in relation to the Strike Squadrons, at Bruggen and Laarbruch?

FB
I was closely associated with the strike role at Laarbruch during Buccaneer days and I cannot recall “TDS” . Any more context?

If it refers to XV Sqn, maybe “Third Division Squadron”😏

[MAINJAFAD]

I was closely associated with the strike role at Laarbruch during Buccaneer days and I cannot recall “TDS” . Any more context?

Could be Project E related. The USAF had Tactical Depot Squadrons in the 1950's and 1960's.Their role, Storage and maintenance of Nuclear Weapons.

[Timelord]

Maybe. They were called Munitions Storage Squadrons by the time I was involved. But I believe RAFG Canberra Squadrons used US nuclear weapons so they would have had US storage units.

[MPN11]

Well you learn something every day, I didn’t know that.
I had all the kit, as a Bisley competitor. Accordingly, on an HQ 11Gp callout exercise, I turned up in full Greens, webbing, full water-bottle etc. After the briefing I was ticked off for not wearing a blue shirt and sweater, instead of the green items I was wearing.

Regular Station visits as Exercise DISTAFF and a subsequent MoD (AFD) tour in War Plans and Policy made me decidedly coloured GREEN. The RAF played at War in most environments (exempt air operations) and had to learn some hard lessons.

[Finningley Boy]

I was closely associated with the strike role at Laarbruch during Buccaneer days and I cannot recall “TDS” . Any more context?

If it refers to XV Sqn, maybe “Third Division Squadron”😏
Timelord and Mainjafad,

You're both on the right track, specifically, TDS 6 had to prepare to evacuate alongside 'Detachment 5' in the event of hostilities. This was at Laarbruch circa 1961. Detachment 5 was the USAF maintenance unit, I think. I'm wondering if TDS 6 was the USAF security detachment, ie, Tactical Deployment Security? This was in connection with the B7 bombs carried by the Canberras?

FB

[NutLoose]

Maybe. They were called Munitions Storage Squadrons by the time I was involved. But I believe RAFG Canberra Squadrons used US nuclear weapons so they would have had US storage units.

I seem to remember being told that Bruggen QRA prior to the RAF in the 70’s was manned by the Americans.

[Finningley Boy]

I seem to remember being told that Bruggen QRA prior to the RAF in the 70’s was manned by the Americans.
Up until the arrival of the Jaguar, the Canberras and Phantoms carried US Bombs. The Americans provided the maintenance and the ultimate level of Security. It was the same at St Mawgan with the nuclear armed Torpedos, this time the US Navy provided the engineers while the a US Marine Corps Security detachment provided a security ring inside the RAF Police one. All were armed.

FB

[Pontius Navigator]

Up until the arrival of the Jaguar, the Canberras and Phantoms carried US Bombs. The Americans provided the maintenance and the ultimate level of Security. It was the same at St Mawgan with the nuclear armed depth bombs, this time the US Navy provided the engineers while the a US Marine Corps Security detachment provided a security ring inside the RAF Police one. All were armed.

FB
corrected it for you. One reason for dropping the NDB was the greater kill prob of the Stringray torpedo, not least because an NDB would f*** up acoustic sensors for a long time.

[pr00ne]

Finningley Boy/NutLoose,

RAFG/2nd TAF Nuclear alert was, in the Canberra, Buccaneer, and Phantom FGR2 era, all RAF as far as aircraft, aircrew and ground crew went, but as the weapons were US supplied, and remained US property, there was a resident US Munitions Detachment on each station that retained custody of the weapons and guarded them accordingly. This meant that when the alert aircraft were loaded with live weapons they too were guarded by armed US sentries at all times. They were VERY hot on the 'no lone zone' regs. I always wondered how the Jaguar coped with these regs as, in theory, the moment the aircraft taxied (which RAFG alert aircraft never did) the pilot should have been shot dead by the sentry if that sentry was sticking to the rules...

Finningley Boy,

RAFG Hunters;
The Hunter F4/F6 fleet in RAFG/2TAF was 100% pure air to air in role, there was no close air support/ground attack/conventional interdiction requirement in Germany at the time, all out nuclear retaliation being the NATO policy up until 1967. It is often forgotten what a change in RAFG the introduction of dual capable Harriers, Phantoms and Buccaneers was. RAFG had NO conventional ground attack ability between the retirement of the Venom FB4 and the introduction of the Phantom/Harrier/Buccaneer generation.

Interestingly, before the 1957 Sandys cuts, there was a tentative plan to equip the ground attack Venom FB4 squadrons with converted Hunter F4's, to be known as Hunter FGA4's, as the air to air Hunter units all gradually re-equipped with F6's.

It was all out nuclear or nothing. Even the RAFG Canberra B(I)6 and B(I) 8 squadrons were pure nuclear, their conventional capability being purely for overseas reinforcement out of area deployments. The other RAFG Hunters, the fighter recce 2 and 4 squadrons, were tiny outfits with an establishment of 9 FR10 and 1 T7 per squadron, meaning that the entire Gutersloh wing was smaller than an average 24 a/c NATO squadron.

[MAINJAFAD]

Up until the arrival of the Jaguar, the Canberras and Phantoms carried US Bombs. The Americans provided the maintenance and the ultimate level of Security. It was the same at St Mawgan with the nuclear armed Torpedos, this time the US Navy provided the engineers while the a US Marine Corps Security detachment provided a security ring inside the RAF Police one. All were armed.

FB

The units that supported US Nuclear weapons based in the US and oversea went by various names as time went on. Timelord is correct in that by the time he was involved they were known as Munition Support Squadrons, before that Tactical Depot Squadrons / Tactical Support Squadron and before that Aviation Field Depot Squadrons. The link below covers how the squadrons were set up and the fact that a squadron covered a number of bases with detachments, with what seems to be a specialist Training and Staneval flight that knew what was going on across the whole unit. As the author states, almost everything was extremely compartmentalised, to the point that the security element was separated from the engineering element in the case of unit he was at.

https://usafnukes.com/break-room/bios-a-wsa-stories/84-donald-read-1st-tds

The information about these units on the internet seem to be very limited, however 6th Tactical Depot Squadron seems to be related to weapons supplied to the RAF, not just because of your source (which if I was a betting man would be a TTW operations order out of the annex of the station's F540), but thanks to the unit having a badge that somebody has put on a USAF badge collection page on the net. According to that site, 6th TDS had detachments at Tours in France, plus Marham and Coningsby in the UK. I suspect that the windy cabbage patch is a mistake as according to Wynn's book, RAF Nuclear Deterrent Forces, the only RAF stations that actually had US bombs stored at them for the MBF and NATO TBF were Marham, Waddington and Honington. The Bombs for the MBF were actually a major pain for Bomber Command as they couldn't be deployed to the dispersal airfields with the aircraft like the UK owned weapons could. Wynn states that the US bombs were gone from Waddington and Honington by 1962 and from Marham in 1965. I suspect that your document refers to the Detachment 5 as the maintenance personnel (and dependants), while the 6th TDS HQ security were responsible for the guard force (and dependants) who didn't share the same chain of command as the maintenance guys. A guess on my part, but logical one.

[Finningley Boy]

Mainjafad, Nutloose, pr00ne and Pontius Pilot, many thanks, you've cleared my head and fitted the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. I was never sure if the Hunters, certainly, pre 1957, were dual assigned to close air support for example. I knew that the USAF oversaw and maintained the nuclear weapons/warheads which they owned but which under Project E UK crews would deliver. The same for some other NATO countries, Netherlands, Belgium and FRG. But Tactical Depot Squadron sounds right. What I could never understand, perhaps being simplistic, is the RAF/USAF maintained peace-time air defence of FRG airspace until the end of the cold war while the Luftwaffe would still carry nuclear bombs and the Heer light the blue touch paper on Pershings, albeit under the same type of rules governing oversight and maintenance?

Pontius, I stand corrected, but I recall reading something about mk 43 warheaded Torpedoes!?

Once again thanks all.

FB

[NutLoose]

They were VERY hot on the 'no lone zone' regs. I always wondered how the Jaguar coped with these regs as, in theory, the moment the aircraft taxied (which RAFG alert aircraft never did) the pilot should have been shot dead by the sentry if that sentry was sticking to the rules...

Maybe they expected us to walk him to the gate, then the guards could shoot the two of us :E the three man principal being no longer in effect. If I remember correctly one intake blank was left in the Jag as a safety measure to prevent a rogue pilot starting up both and departing, but if you’ve ever been in a HAS during a Jag start the exhaust from the running engine used to blow any intake blanks out.

Plus starting up would raise alarms bells with everyone and he would have needed us to cooperate opening the HAS up unless he did it himself, he would then be faced with the huge electric gates to get out of QRA which he had no control over.

The RAF was also VERY hot on the “no lone” zones.

[Timelord]

Pr00ne: Your post re US weapons is true for Canberra And F4 but the RAFG (and UK and RN) Buccaneers only ever carried UK weapons.

[pr00ne]

Timelord,

Thanks for the correction, I was only ever on the F4, never Buccaneer, so many thanks for correcting my tardy assumption.

[pr00ne]

Mainjafad, Nutloose, pr00ne and Pontius Pilot, many thanks, you've cleared my head and fitted the missing pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. I was never sure if the Hunters, certainly, pre 1957, were dual assigned to close air support for example. I knew that the USAF oversaw and maintained the nuclear weapons/warheads which they owned but which under Project E UK crews would deliver. The same for some other NATO countries, Netherlands, Belgium and FRG. But Tactical Depot Squadron sounds right. What I could never understand, perhaps being simplistic, is the RAF/USAF maintained peace-time air defence of FRG airspace until the end of the cold war while the Luftwaffe would still carry nuclear bombs and the Heer light the blue touch paper on Pershings, albeit under the same type of rules governing oversight and maintenance?

Pontius, I stand corrected, but I recall reading something about mk 43 warheaded Torpedoes!?

Once again thanks all.

FB

RAFG, US and French defence of FRG airspace was a treaty obligation with the Soviets following the end of WW2. For the same reason no Luftwaffe aircraft were allowed down the Berlin corridors and BEA and Pan Am operated the domestic German routes to/from Berlin. Pretty sure the French were involved in this too, presumably with Air France, but I only ever saw BEA and Pan Am.

[DODGYOLDFART]

I am not sure how many Hunter 5 Squadrons were active in RAFG by 1957 but once they started to convert to Hunter 6 the numbers came down to 5.Three were based at Gutersloh - 14, 20 and 26 Squadrons and 4 and 93 squadrons at Jever. Conversion to Hunter 6 was completed by May 1958. Their principle role was air defence with ground attack as a secondary role. However more emphasis was being placed on the ground attack role by mid 1960 although very little practical training was provided to the pilots other than air to ground firing. At the end of 1960 another major change occurred with a major shuffling of the pack - some squadrons changing name plates while others ceased operation altogether. The Hunter 6's were replaced by FR10's and the Swift FR 5's retired.

I was there for some of that time and it is now over 60 years ago and my memory is not quite as good as it was back then.

[Finningley Boy]

Indeed, as pr00ne says, by about 1963, there was nothing left in RAFG of Battlefield support nature except the Fighter Recce Hunters and whatever the Javelins could do, but they were all Firestreak armed by then as per SACEUR requirements. When I say what they could do, I understand the Javelin crews had a go at G/A from time to time with their 30mm adens, but nothing to slow things short of an all out nuclear exchange. Worrying times really. 2 ATAF's remit, blast a radioactive path for SAC and Bomber Command to administer the final blow.

FB

[SLXOwft]

Points of Information

FB, the US Mk 43 was a lightweight HE torpedo (HBX), the first capable of being dropped from helicopters. It had a range of c.2.25 nm. RAFM Cosford has one that, for training purposes, could release dye and be recovered. (Produced 1951 to 1959) The RN bought 50 of them.

The US Mk 45 was the nuclear torpedo (W34 warhead), in service from 1959 and as far as I know US only and submarine lauched. (Produced 1959 to 1976)

I presume the St Mawgan weapon referred to was the US Mk57/B57 for Nimrod. (Produced 1963 to 1967)

Over the years the RN made proposals for nuclear versions of both the Mk8 and Tigerfish but they didn't get far.

Never come across an air dropped nuclear torpedo but then I never knowingly had the need to know.:)

Mud-moving Hunters to nuclear armed torpedos PPRuNe thread drift at its best.

[Pontius Navigator]

The French sector airport was Tegel

[Finningley Boy]

Points of Information

FB, the US Mk 43 was a lightweight HE torpedo (HBX), the first capable of being dropped from helicopters. It had a range of c.2.25 nm. RAFM Cosford has one that, for training purposes, could release dye and be recovered. (Produced 1951 to 1959) The RN bought 50 of them.

The US Mk 45 was the nuclear torpedo (W34 warhead), in service from 1959 and as far as I know US only and submarine lauched. (Produced 1959 to 1976)

I presume the St Mawgan weapon referred to was the US Mk57/B57 for Nimrod. (Produced 1963 to 1967)

Over the years the RN made proposals for nuclear versions of both the Mk8 and Tigerfish but they didn't get far.

Never come across an air dropped nuclear torpedo but then I never knowingly had the need to know.:)

Mud-moving Hunters to nuclear armed torpedos PPRuNe thread drift at its best.
Many thanks mister,

I understand that the mk 43 was the Warhead/Bomb which replaced the mk 7, I imagine pr00ne will concur unless I'm off beam again. Hence my confusion with mk 43 Torpedos

FB

[Finningley Boy]

The French sector airport was Tegel

Indeed,

I flew in and out, or was it the other way round, of Tegel when I going home on leave. There was the Britannia Airways 737 once a week, every Wednesday into Gatow so rather limited. Then there was what ever flew in and out of the US occupied original Berlin Airport, Tempelhof, it always looked abandoned to me but I understand it was still the principal Berlin airhub into the 1960s, if the Harry Palmer films are anything to go by.

Then there was/is Schonefeld of course!

FB