C130J NCA

[Tedderboy]

Apologies if discussed before (but can't find it) - I have seen a number of cockpit photos recently of C130Js conducting TS training with a Non-Commissioned Aircrew sat in the jump seat (and one wearing a multi-engine tactics instructor badge). I am assuming these are ALMs (I know...WSOps) who have a supplementary TS role on the flt deck but would be interested to know if this is the case and if so what exactly their role is?


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1216x760/screenshot_2020_10_07_at_13_27_34_d9d6669faaf8a0499010444e1e 5f3b5b33716e52.png

[Herod]

The only NCO on the flight deck should be the loadie, bringing lunch!!..(stands by for incoming.

[lsh]

It was a sad day when the Flight Engineers went.
They were good value in so many ways.
We generally had a couple on SH squadrons.

lsh
:E

[MPN11]

I never had a badge on my uniform saying what I was.

What is this fixation these days with Aircrew badges plastered all over their flying overalls? Are we compensating for something, or just trying to keep up with the Americans?

[NutLoose]

MPN11

The early Chinook RAF badges issued with the Chinook superimposed over the Roundel, the Chinooks were colour coded to indicate who they were presented too, Gold Silver etc.

[Chugalug2]

It was a sad day when the Flight Engineers went.
They were good value in so many ways.
We generally had a couple on SH squadrons.

lsh
:E
Amen to that, Ish. I started out on the Hastings with a crew of 6 (Capt, Co, Nav, Eng, Sig, and AQM). Reduced down to 5 on the C-130K (Capt, Co, Nav, Eng, and ALM). Finally there were just two of us left on the F/D when I went civvie, with the No.1 and her cabin crew down the back. Not wishing to tread on anyone's toes, but the ones I missed the most as a civvie were the Flt Engs with their tech insight into the very bowels of an aircraft (plus we had now to top up the oils, supervise the refuelling, and even, on the 1-11, unload de-min barrels from the hold and pump it into the tank!).

Sitting between us on take-off or landing it was the Eng who invariably first spotted the slightest unwarranted twitch of a gauge. Glad they could help out on the SH Sqns! :ok:

As to Qualified Multi-Engine Tactics Instructors; no, I don't know either.

[throwaway1]

C-130J crew model has an ALM in the middle seat for LL lookout, especially at night on gogs, and for lending some SA to the drivers when doing some of the more high-end stuff. Another ALM is down the back for air-despatch and can be joined by the one up on the flight-deck for loads which require two crewmen to drop. Their role is mission-based and not to do with the basic operation of the aircraft which is still a 2-man job. The galley is still within arm's reach to the left so they can still do their primary role!

A QMETI is the AWC's attempt to develop a QWI-esque post-grad course for ME aircrew, but since there are no Ws you can't be a QWI.

[Poorly PA]

The J Loadie can operate in a similar way to an SH crewman, and is a key part of the Team on the Flight Deck in many of the higher end uses of the acft, making them QMETIs is a natural progression of that role. The RAF very much leads the way in this method of operating the acft and is something some of the smaller Nations that have brought it will need to get their heads around as they move to make full use of the huge capabilities that the acft has.

[chopper2004]

I never had a badge on my uniform saying what I was.

What is this fixation these days with Aircrew badges plastered all over their flying overalls? Are we compensating for something, or just trying to keep up with the Americans?

Look at the likes of Sharkey Ward and the Late Charlie Cantan in the Falklands, they and their squadron mates in the FAA had more than one or two patches on their flight suits. In fact have to say FAA aircrew in 80s were like USN aviators to show their squadrons they have been on or deployments Tactics courses..

Nowadays be it USAF, USN, USMC, USCG , US Army only have Wings brevet , squadron patch, and odd manufacturers patch and if usaf, the command patch on right breast.

If there’s a multitude of deployments say with Marine Corps or navy then it’s Swen and Seen on their nomex Flight jacket or aircrew bag.

cheers

[GlobalNav]

@MPN: C'mon, you can't keep up with the Americans (grabbing hat and umbrella)

[Lima Juliet]

Due to the confusion between the Rotary Wing and Fixed Wing roles, the Weapon Systems Operators (WSOps) were renamed WSOp (RW) Cmn (ie. for Crewmen) and WSOp (ME) ALM (ie. for Air Loadmasters). This change was made about 2 years ago and also was used to re-identify the various sub-cadres. Here is the full list of WSOps used in flying roles:

WSOp (ISR) EW - electronic warfare gurus for P8, RJ, Sentry, etc...
WSOp (ISR) Aco - acoustic gurus for P8
WSOp (ISR) Lg - airborne linguists for RJ
WSOp (ISR) Lnd - sensor ops for Shadow, Defender and Reaper
WSOp (ISR) Eng - air engineers for Sentry

WSOp (ME) ALM - loadies for C130J, BAe146, A400M, C17
WSOp (ME) MSO - mission system officer for Voyager (they also do Pursar for AT duties with the Cabin Crew)

WSOp (RW) Cmn - helicopter crewman

Then the other Mission Aircrew are the Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) in the following current flying roles:

WSO (ISR) Nav - flight deck navigators on the Sentry and RJ
WSO (ISR) Air - mission aircrew used on RJ, Sentry, Sentinel
WSO (ISR) Mar - mission aircrew on P8
WSO (ISR) Lnd - sensor operator on Reaper

There are also commissioned versions of the above WSOps conducting roles and then there WSO (FJ) that are sadly without a jet anymore.

[Sandy Parts]

Cheers LJ - I didn't even know all those existed - wonder why MSO = "Mission System Officer" not "Mission System Operator" to fit in with the long established WSOp (...operator) vs WSO (...officer) - not likely to ever meet one - just curious.

[heights good]

Due to the confusion between the Rotary Wing and Fixed Wing roles, the Weapon Systems Operators (WSOps) were renamed WSOp (RW) Cmn (ie. for Crewmen) and WSOp (ME) ALM (ie. for Air Loadmasters). This change was made about 2 years ago and also was used to re-identify the various sub-cadres. Here is the full list of WSOps used in flying roles:

WSOp (ISR) EW - electronic warfare gurus for P8, RJ, Sentry, etc...
WSOp (ISR) Aco - acoustic gurus for P8
WSOp (ISR) Lg - airborne linguists for RJ
WSOp (ISR) Lnd - sensor ops for Shadow, Defender and Reaper
WSOp (ISR) Eng - air engineers for Sentry

WSOp (ME) ALM - loadies for C130J, BAe146, A400M, C17
WSOp (ME) MSO - mission system officer for Voyager (they also do Pursar for AT duties with the Cabin Crew)

WSOp (RW) Cmn - helicopter crewman

Then the other Mission Aircrew are the Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) in the following current flying roles:

WSO (ISR) Nav - flight deck navigators on the Sentry and RJ
WSO (ISR) Air - mission aircrew used on RJ, Sentry, Sentinel
WSO (ISR) Mar - mission aircrew on P8
WSO (ISR) Lnd - sensor operator on Reaper

There are also commissioned versions of the above WSOps conducting roles and then there WSO (FJ) that are sadly without a jet anymore.

You missed all of the rotary guys in your lists.

Thats a lot to remember....perhaps we could rename them something like....

Air Loadmaster
Air Electronics Operator
Air Engineer
Linguist

:ugh:

[Door Slider]

Cheers LJ - I didn't even know all those existed - wonder why MSO = "Mission System Officer" not "Mission System Operator" to fit in with the long established WSOp (...operator) vs WSO (...officer) - not likely to ever meet one - just curious.

MSO is Mission Systems Operator, not Officer

[MPN11]

Life gets ever more complcated! I’m sure the rot started when Air Officers started acquiring strange civvy-type job tiltles!

Which badge shall I wear today?
ATCO PAR
ATCO ADC
ATCO Dir
ATCO App
ATCO Sup(T)
ATCO LEO(T)
ATCO AC(L)
ATCO AC
ATCO Sup(A)
ATCO LEO(A)
ATCO Instr
ATCO Exam
.... or do I just stop acquiring badges and get on with the job? 😎

Anyway, I’m sure they all do a good and valuable job, for which they deserve thanks. I just think it’s all rather silly!

[SLXOwft]

Thats a lot to remember....perhaps we could rename them something like....

Air Loadmaster
Air Electronics Operator
Air Engineer
Linguist

That wouldn't mesh with ASTRA though...

“For a long time our people have not been ‘tradesmen’ with all of the historical connotations of that word, and nor do we need a separate term for officers from the other ranks. Instead, we want to refer to all of our people through the lexicon of a profession; it’s what they deserve” he states. “Basically this means grouping previous trades and branches together under one profession, adjusting training to allow people to re-skill more quickly and then adjust their terms of service to generate the real fluidity/liquidity in workforce that we need to confront adversaries long into the future”. VSO (Desk) Cpblty A Turner

[MPN11]

@SLXOwft (https://www.pprune.org/members/502320-slxowft)
So what went wrong? Looking at that listing provided by LJ there’s the potential of “trades”/“specialities” consisting of a dozen or so people!

My Branch was GD(G)ATC ... now Ops Support, I believe. My ‘specialism’ at any one time was reflected in my ATC Certificate of Competency as my legal authority to do my job. I believe Aircrew have a similar thing (F5000?).

[Martin the Martian]

So when are they to rename pilots WSO (Pilot)?

[MPN11]

So when are they to rename pilots WSO (Pilot)?
Oh, hahahahaha! How deep is your bunker? :O

[lsh]

Oh, hahahahaha! How deep is your bunker? :O

Perhaps, to keep them flexible, they could be known as General Duties (Pilot)?
Never catch on, I guess.

lsh
:E

[charliegolf]

Si, did you ever attempt a cassette wipe at Henlow or Cranwell?

CG

[dragartist]

I left in 2011. In my last years a number of HOEU Loadmasters had been trained as instructors for the Precision Airdrop System (PADS). They were presented with an instructors badge. (I have one without the "Instructor"). The HOEU was a AWC Unit. PADS was essentially a carry on computer system hooked up to UHF Radio which would compute the Calculated Air Release Point (CARP) from GPS position data from dropsodes which were dropped on a first run. There was always a desire to integrate this with JAMPA but that was too difficult back then. There is a Youtube video of the system in use at night in Afg. I would guess that things have moved on somewhat since then. Certainly the Loadmasters were doing more than making tea and handing out white boxes to the Drivers Airframe.

[SLXOwft]

MPN11, my post was meant to be tongue in cheek hence VSO(desk). I just think that's probably the line of thinking that led to the change. IMHO the similar names are confusing rather than helpful.

It wasn't seen necessary to rename Navs (or Observers) RIOs or CSOs during the F4's UK service life. I am of the 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' school.

I can't see why the RN saw the need to change Tiffys (Artificers) in Engineering Technicians or why Jimmys slowly changed from Number 1 to XO (though the latter was probably just organic cultural change driven by USN dominance in NATO and the love of acronyms).

[MPN11]

Tongue location was noted!

’My’ role title was usually SATCO, but curiously at XW it was ‘OC ATC Sqn’ ... which sounded nice but used more ink!

[lsh]

Si, did you ever attempt a cassette wipe at Henlow or Cranwell?

CG

No. Very much wanted to pilot something, so got licences & left in '98.
Never regretted it, had a really good, fulfilling, time and retired at 56.

lsh
:E

[charliegolf]

I was aware of your piloting post RAF, just wondered if you kicked it off inside. :ok: