"Outside" magazine hit piece on air tours

[aa777888]

https://www.outsideonline.com/2415638/helicopter-tours-noise-outdoors-faa-rules

[Bell_ringer]

It's not a "hit" piece, noise is a legitimate concern. Why should a small group of businesses profit at the expense of the wider community's enjoyment of nature?
The number of flights, noise, routes taken should be restricted so a balance can be found.

[aa777888]

It's a hit piece. There are already plenty of protected areas and more than sufficient regulation associated with flight over same. They are marked clearly on the charts. I've got a bunch of them around where I am based and abide by them, as does everyone else I know. If people want more areas protected they can lobby their congress critters. Additional regulations on the industry as a whole are unnecessary.

[Bell_ringer]

Communities don't care about an industry it considers an unnecessary annoyance.
As long as businesses think they are more important than anyone else there will be a problem, and the people will eventually get their way.
Flying isn't a right, it is a privilege. The industry doesn't get to choose what it thinks is acceptable for everyone else.

There should be a balance, but too many tourist sites are being ruined by a constant stream of aircraft, something that makes money for the operator but does relatively little in the way of employment or other returns.
It is not a uniquely US problem, though the US ecosystem seems to let it happen at scale.

[aa777888]

I'm unsurprised you took the article as a piece of serious journalism. The only people who care about this are the folks at Outside Magazine, those they pander to, and a small number of people in HI that don't care about/don't need tourism dollars. They will not "get their way", there aren't enough of them. The vast majority of HI is happy to support whatever activities transfer money from tourists into the local economy, including the use of a small air force of helicopters that exist solely for the purposes of entertaining the masses. And that majority is smart, they long ago condensed operations to small areas and preserved large swaths of land on the Big Island where low altitude operations are not allowed, thereby "preserving the environment". And there's some unintended consequences for you: maybe they should open up a little airspace to reduce density.

Not sure where you live, BR, but if it's the US it might be time for you to move to a place where free enterprise doesn't exist, and where they only practice the sort of aviation that you approve of.

P.S. you can subscribe to Outside here (https://www.outsideonline.com/2302856/subscribe-now-outside-magazine) ;)

[Bell_ringer]

I didn't say it was serious journalism, it is however a common problem or theme, rather.
I don't subscribe to the the US version of "free enterprise", which says that you can rape, pillage and exploit as long as the rules let you get away with it, often by industries that set their own rules.
It's like your countryman, always wanting to exercise their rights but never being concerned about affecting the rights of others.

In the modern world, there is a concept of corporate-social responsibility. You should look it up.

This is a big industry, one that will suffer the consequences of bad actors, particularly when it comes to the court of public opinion and an aviation skeptic one at that.

It should not be a surprise that the greater public don't want their natural resources exploited for the benefit of the few.
This will be a foreign concept to many murkins.

I thank my lucky stars I'm not in the US of A, but am grateful for the endless lessons on how not to do things. :E

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aa777888 - if you have a netflix account, try watching the latest contribution from David Attenborough, A Life on Our Planet, and then tell us how well free enterprise is going as far as the world is concerned

[aa777888]

Right back at you, my internet acquaintance: I thank my lucky stars I'm not in the US of A wherever you are, but am grateful for the endless lessons on how not to do things :ok:

The culture clash is here is clearly intractable, and thus not really worthy of further debate, nobody is going to change their mind. You know us US types will never give up the freedom and responsibility we enjoy here: land almost anywhere, fly VFR at night, in single's no less, the vast numbers of lightweight piston single's, Class G VFR minimums, and every other PPRuNe hot button there is. It must appear to be a near state of total anarchy to those who live and fly outside the US.

[aa777888]

crab, I'm not going down a global warming rat hole with you. At least pretend this is an aviation forum.

[Robbiee]

If I have to endure other people's loud music, cigarette/pot smoke, barking dogs, screaming children, revving motorcycles, and leaf blowers,...not to mention that damn commuter train that blasts its horn for ten minutes every morning a five,...

Then they have to endure the sound of my helicopter flying overhead!

[megan]

not to mention that damn commuter train that blasts its horn for ten minutes every morning a five,...Living where you do Robbiee it's a wonder the state government isn't charging you for the wake up call. ;)

[krypton_john]

It's not a "hit" piece, noise is a legitimate concern. Why should a small group of businesses profit at the expense of the wider community's enjoyment of nature?
The number of flights, noise, routes taken should be restricted so a balance can be found.

I would call it a hit piece because it made zero effort to report on the other side of the story.

[Bell_ringer]

If I have to endure other people's loud music, cigarette/pot smoke, barking dogs, screaming children, revving motorcycles, and leaf blowers,...not to mention that damn commuter train that blasts its horn for ten minutes every morning a five,...

Then they have to endure the sound of my helicopter flying overhead!

That fairly accurately sums up the broader issue with society, particularly in the US.
Freedom has a cost, and has taken a great deal of sacrifice.
It should should be used with responsibility and consideration for everyone else's freedoms.
Instead, it has just become an excuse for selfish and entitled behaviour.

[Robbiee]

That fairly accurately sums up the broader issue with society, particularly in the US.
Freedom has a cost, and has taken a great deal of sacrifice.
It should should be used with responsibility and consideration for everyone else's freedoms.
Instead, it has just become an excuse for selfish and entitled behaviour.

My freedom to enjoy a nice quiet meal at a restaurant vs. your freedom to bring your screaming baby out to dinner with you. My freedom to enjoy watching a movie in the theater, vs. your freedom to talk on your phone while watching a movie at that theater. My freedom to enjoy the fresh outside air vs. your freedom to smoke outside.

What,...you don't have those conflicts in Europe?

[Bell_ringer]

ok Robster I'll bite.
There are selfish and inconsiderate people everywhere, but perhaps a few less per capita on this side of the pond.
Consideration and tolerance go hand in hand. Give and take, unless it is all take and no give.

I will use your analogy of revving bikes.
It will be annoying the few times that happens.
However, when your neighbour decides to open a motorbike tour business to exercise his "free enterprise" and you have the revving 7 days a week, morning to night every 15-20 minutes, you may just find that more than a little irrating.
Of course, if the law says its ok, I'm sure you won't mind them exercising their freedoms.

[aa777888]

Of course, if the law says its ok, I'm sure you won't mind them exercising their freedoms.
And indeed most people do not mind in the US. But that's not what gets reported. The old media saw, "If it bleeds it leads", can also be expressed in a less rhyming form, "If it whines it leads". Hence hit pieces like the one in Outside.

The problem in the US is not that people are selfish, it is that a) they are stupid and b) our media is a huge stupidity amplifier. And, arguably, it is the stupid folk, and the media who exploits them, that are ultimately the ones who are being selfish.

We are all well familiar with the type of stupidity associated with those who choose to live near an airport and then complain about the airport. But there are things called zoning laws in the US, as there are in the rest of the world, and this same stupidity happens in innumerable other ways. Folks who move to the country because they think it is somehow more peaceful, only to realize after the fact that all their neighbors enjoy legal target practice in their backyards, or fireworks, or that they legally raise Guinea hens (incredibly noisy fowl), or have roosters, or enjoy riding dirt bikes and ATVs. All time-honored US country traditions. Or those who move to a mixed use zone and find out that somebody is, legally, opening a cremation facility, or a pig farm, or junk yard, or some other "distasteful" industrial operation. My favorite form of this stupidity are those who willingly, knowingly, settle in flood zones--that ought to be illegal!

But the reality is that these conflicts do not occur all that often, they are not all that prevalent. But you'd never know that based on the torrent of "news" vomiting out of our "stupidity amplifier system", aka media, both mass and social.

That said, the freedoms, and concomitant responsibilities, afforded US residents are greater than that found in other parts of the world. Hence there is more opportunity for such conflicts here. To those who have grown up and lived under more rigid rules and regulations, it may seem the height of folly to allow that much freedom. Conversely, those raised in the US often find the environment in other countries stultifying.

I wish that we could divide the world, or even the US, into zones such that people could easily move to and live under the rules that they like. Alas, that is not the human condition. Humans will always seek to control other humans. Interestingly, freedom lovers don't seem to do that as much, while those who seek to control under the guise of making the world better are much more interested in, and much better at, obtaining that control and making people do what they want. Which is actually the less selfish of the two? The one who is live and let live, or the one who says live like I tell you to live? And thus the slow slide towards socialism and/or facism that history has shown us is the inevitable evolution of every society in history.

In twenty more years, short bloody revolution, the US will be the UK, and you will all have your best wishes come true. In the meantime I'm enjoying myself as much as I possibly can before that happens.

[Robbiee]

ok Robster I'll bite.
There are selfish and inconsiderate people everywhere, but perhaps a few less per capita on this side of the pond.
Consideration and tolerance go hand in hand. Give and take, unless it is all take and no give.

I will use your analogy of revving bikes.
It will be annoying the few times that happens.
However, when your neighbour decides to open a motorbike tour business to exercise his "free enterprise" and you have the revving 7 days a week, morning to night every 15-20 minutes, you may just find that more than a little irrating.
Of course, if the law says its ok, I'm sure you won't mind them exercising their freedoms.

Well, nothing like a blown way out of proportion example to prove whatever point it is you are trying to make.

However, one of my neighbours used to blast his stereo begining at 10pm several nights a week, every week, for years until by the grace of God he finally moved away. Another neighbour of mine forced me to live with my windows closed 24/7 because he was a chain smoker, whose smoke would fill my apartment everytime I dared open a window!

As for your tour operation, I don't know what you know about our laws, but I'm pretty sure you cannot operate a tour bike business in a residential neighborhood.

If you don't like the noise tourists make, don't live in a town that relies on tourism to survive.

[dash34]

Helicopters, the jet-skis of the air.... :O

[brett s]

I used to be in the ag business 30 or so years ago, in Florida subdivisions were popping up right beside working farms & then start complaining about all the noise. Wasn't just us with the helicopters either, irrigation pumps aren't quiet either. Only thing that kept us in business was their "right to farm" laws - in the end the subdivisions won though, land costs rose enough that it made more sense to sell out,

[megan]

Complaining is a phenomena we have to live with, and deal with, the best we can.

Friend of the wifes lives in a rural area and is on an eternal drive to have the local air force base closed down. The air force has been resident in the area since 1941 and of course she lives under a training area, the source of her discontent is living through the London blitz with the scream of fighters in combat and bombs coming down, so understandable in a way. All you can say is she didn't do due diligence prior to purchasing her property, the air force ain't about to move, in fact they are expanding operations.

Offshore operator has their base in a rural area and next to the gas processing plant. Woman living three miles from the heliport wants the operation to move because the kerosene from the helicopters flying over is killing her plants, husband works offshore. Another woman wanted the helicopters to stop flying over her house as they were sucking things out of her swimming pool, I kid you not.

[Bell_ringer]

People do like to complain.
It is one thing buying a house near an airport (usually at a lower cost to compensate), and then complaining about it.
It gets a bit woolier when you've lived near a quiet field and then the number of movements significantly ramp up.

Air tours are a valid and relevant service.
Different countries treat the service, particularly in sensitive areas, differently, and control the different types of activities so the area isn't spoilt by noise or pollution, or even people for that matter.
There comes a point where a service can become pervasive, and starts to affect the enjoyment of the area, not just for residents but also other visitors.
The more popular the place, the more intrusive is the problem.

Telling people raised in a town, most who have been there a long, long time, that they should go live somewhere else so you can make a buck is ludicrous and the sort of tosspot attitude that some (not all) operators display.

"reasonable" is an abstract concept and something two sides will never agree on, but you would hope that sensible people can find some form of compromise where they can all co-exist.
Conflicts will only increase as development encroaches on airfields, environmental impact becomes top-of-mind and these types of services become in greater demand.
In a post-Covid world, of course.
In the meanwhile, to quote from Depeche Mode, Enjoy the Silence.

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crab, I'm not going down a global warming rat hole with you. At least pretend this is an aviation forum. not a GW rathole at all - more an idea that freedom to do what you want may keep you happy for the short term but has very serious long-term consequences.

Let's be honest - the love of aviation is often driven by a desire to look down on what the poor people are doing rather than any altruistic notion.

[[email protected]]

In twenty more years, short bloody revolution, the US will be the UK, and you will all have your best wishes come true. I don't think you will have to wait 20 years for your revolution but the US won't become the UK. The white supremacists are armed and ready and spoiling for a fight - so much for live and let live - and outbreaks of violence will much more likely be race-based than political.

[aa777888]

I don't think you will have to wait 20 years for your revolution but the US won't become the UK. The white supremacists are armed and ready and spoiling for a fight - so much for live and let live - and outbreaks of violence will much more likely be race-based than political.
I sure hope you are right about the first part, the US not becoming the UK, but I don't think you will be. You are definitely wrong about things being race-based. That is just an unhappy side effect of where racial divides, really cultural divides, fall politically. And you put too much stock in the dramatic images of militia-wannabees, both black and white, parading around with guns. While it is wonderful imagery for selling news broadcasts it does not represent the rank and file American, black, white or any other color or stripe. The socialists have their pawns and move them around the chessboard quite well. The capitalists (or conservatives--I'm not sure what to call them anymore, they are so confused as a group) don't use such pawns, indeed are horrified at such a concept, and while that is a moral victory, it is a huge strategic disadvantage and that is just one reason why they will lose, why they have always ultimately lost, throughout history.

However that is all merely hand waiving. The real reason that the America of the twentieth century will fall in the twenty first century is because American political power has always been for sale, and that massive conflict of interest (people voting themselves a better life) that is the American voting system has gone from rich, white landowners to now literally anyone. And when the mob rules socialism reigns. The last real bastion of the constitutional republic (America is NOT a democracy, not yet, anyhow!) is the Electoral College. It'll never be eliminated by a Constitutional amendment, but it can be neutered by state legislation, and socialist controlled state legislatures are doing a fine job of chipping away at it.

So I hope you are right about the eventual outcome (not about race wars, though!) but I seriously doubt it. :(

[Robbiee]

Ah, the Electoral College, without it we would have missed out on the two greatest presidents in history.
:ok:

[[email protected]]

aa777888 - when I listen to a radio interview with an American with extensive experience of white supremacists - having been inside many of their groups for many years - I hear a man with a far less optimistic view than yours.

Groups of the sort that spawned Timothy McVeigh have stockpiles of arms and explosives and just want an excuse to put it to the liberals or the blacks or the commies and whose mantra really seems to be 'F**k the Liberals' - are just spoiling for the opportunity to defend their 'freedoms' - Let's hope he is wrong.

You don't seem to understand that your idea of socialism is still right of centre and nowhere near the threat of communism you have feared since the 50s and McCarthyism. The antifa are just against facists, that doesn't make them pro-communist.

[aa777888]

So you are more of an expert on America than an American that lives it every day, eh? And you believe the media more than a grass roots report with no need to sell air time? If you believe what you hear from mass media, or even from the likes of a monetized Youtube channel, that is extremely naïve, bordering on ignorant, and potentially much worse than that.

Go on believing whatever you want to believe.

[Bell_ringer]

Many of us have spent more time in the “united” states, speaking to the diverse cultures that represent a less than united nation.
like others, I probably have more experience talking to “americans” than most of your countrymen have beyond county lines.
It’s no secret that it takes an outsider to see how narrow a perspective there is and how globally ignorant many of your countryman are.
In the many years i have spent travelling the nation and supporting it’s businesses, never before has a country been so determined to be irrelevant or become as big a joke on the global stage.
Really unfortunate and an opportunity missed.

[aa777888]

Obvious troll, BR. No bite... :=

[Robbiee]

Many of us have spent more time in the “united” states, speaking to the diverse cultures that represent a less than united nation.
like others, I probably have more experience talking to “americans” than most of your countrymen have beyond county lines.
It’s no secret that it takes an outsider to see how narrow a perspective there is and how globally ignorant many of your countryman are.
In the many years i have spent travelling the nation and supporting it’s businesses, never before has a country been so determined to be irrelevant or become as big a joke on the global stage.
Really unfortunate and an opportunity missed.

Well, it is every American's God given right to be the dumbest person in the room. At least half of us take that to heart.

[[email protected]]

So you are more of an expert on America than an American that lives it every day, eh? And you believe the media more than a grass roots report with no need to sell air time? If you believe what you hear from mass media, or even from the likes of a monetized Youtube channel, that is extremely naïve, bordering on ignorant, and potentially much worse than that.

Go on believing whatever you want to believe. there's none as deaf as them as don't want to hear and none as blind as them as don't want to see - paraphrase of a Yorkshire saying.

I'll enjoy news from reputable and trustworthy broadcasters, you just enjoy Fox News.................

We get low flying complaints and noise complaints and we treat them all courteously and, where possible, alter routes and operating areas because - although we are making money in a commercial enterprise - we live here too and understand that our presence isn't a God-given right. Noise does piss people off and they have as much right to complain as we have to make it.

[aa777888]

The two of you, crab and bell ringer, are such obvious trolls it's pathetic. Still not biting.

[Bell_ringer]

If someone disagrees with you blame the media.
if that fails, call them trolls.
if you only expect to be agreed with, perhaps debate and fora aren’t for you. :E

Robbee, thanks for a good chuckle.

[aa777888]

The problem is you are not debating, just making counter accusations. I live here. Real life. Not news. I'm a primary source. Are you telling me my life is a lie? Or that I live a sheltered life? Or that my perception of reality is so twisted that what I say can't be right? You can't know any of that. You just assume.

[MarcK]

The problem is you are not debating, just making counter accusations. I live here. Real life. Not news. I'm a primary source. Are you telling me my life is a lie? Or that I live a sheltered life? Or that my perception of reality is so twisted that what I say can't be right? You can't know any of that. You just assume.
I live in the USA also, so yes, I can say that your perception of reality is so twisted that what you say can't be right.

[nomorehelosforme]

Gentlemen,

Talk about thread drift! So back to politics I voted for Boris and the Conservative Party in the Uk since I was allowed, many years ago(back then people of my age were called Thatchers Children) Robbie and aa777888 please do some SERIOUS research before any criticism of this fine Lady.

Quote, Crab,
there's none as deaf as them as don't want to hear and none as blind as them as don't want to see - paraphrase of a Yorkshire saying.
Crab, there is not a chance in hell they would understand that over here! My friends and family here do know and enjoy a Yorkshire Pudding with the Sunday Roast! But even that took along time to explain!

Quote aa777888
I live here. Real life. Not news. I'm a primary source. my life is a lie,I live a sheltered life my perception of reality is so twisted that what I say can't be right..... Correct!

Quote Robbiee

Well, it is every American's God given right to be the dumbest person in the room. At least half of us take that to heart.... not quite that’s all the people that still live in California!

BellRinger, We will all keep banging our heads against aa and rb every time a Robinson is mentioned ... lets be thankful we don’t have to sit in one, hmmm that said did aa777888 post something on another thread today he would be more comfortable to sit in an EC120 or a 505? Did I read that correctly?

In the meantime I must get on with my post/mail in vote for POTUS

[aa777888]

Oh, another counter accusation. How erudite. But it's all about feelings, not facts, of course.

Play nice in the back seat of the car, children. The adults have better things to do.

You win the interwebs. I'm out.

[[email protected]]

Is there an emoticon for flouncing out of the chatroom?:)

[500e]

Please don't get into the US V the world, a autogyro site has one of the most disruptive threads running