Can anyone remember this accident?

[ZeBedie]

I wonder if anyone can remind me of the details of this accident. A HS125 (that's what my memory says it was) got airbourne from Stansted (or Luton?) with a faulty ADI, climbed to 12000', rolled on its back and crashed.. I think it was in the late 70's or early 80's and I'm not getting confused with the Korean 747 which did similar, some years later. Thanks.

[DaveReidUK]

I'm not aware of any accident fitting that description.

[treadigraph]

Me neither, certainly not in that time frame. There was a C421 or similar that crashed out of Stansted while doing an air test but I can't recall any more than that other than roughly that period I should think.

[Haraka]

There was 125 that went off of Luton Runway in the 60's down in to Vauxhalls ( at the bottom of the hill) IIRC.

[DaveReidUK]

Me neither, certainly not in that time frame. There was a C421 or similar that crashed out of Stansted while doing an air test but I can't recall any more than that other than roughly that period I should think.

Engine failure during go-around and pilot failed to feather the prop. So circumstances totally different from the OP's scenario.

[Level bust]

The 125 at Luton was owned by Beechams, and operated by Autair and was crew training on the 23rd December.

I believe they were doing a practice engine failure but somehow both engines ended up at idle and it then crashed into Vauxhalls.

[vulcanite]

Wasn't there a Bandeirante did something similar (single crew?) back in the 70/80's

[Flap40]

Nothing that matches exactly.

As well as the 125 at Luton mentioned above there was another 125 that crashed at EDI 20/7/70 (crew training EFATO wrong rudder).
A Jetstream 31 at PIK 6/10/92 (crew training EFATO late/wrong rudder).
A Bandeirante out of LBA 24/5/95 which did have an ADI failure. AAIB report (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5423045de5274a1314000bf1/2-1996_G-OEAA.pdf)

Edit to add a Beech 200 from SEN 12/9/87 (possible engine issue).

[treadigraph]

Just wondering if you have mis-remembered the circumstances in some way, something I find I do with increasing ease...

eg: Around 1980 a PA-31 owned by Lotus crashed after a loss of control while apparently doing aerobatics - it was being ferried back to Hethel after maintenance at Stapleford Tawney. It broke up. Right sort of timeframe, exec aircraft...

I did go through an HS-125 production list and didn't spot anything relevant - though there do appear to be an astonishing number of 40+ year old 125s still current in the US.... Or more likely the list I looked at is somewhat out of date!

[ZeBedie]

Thanks everyone, so obviously not a 125, but I'm still clinging to the idea that it was SE England and ADI failure on the way up to 12 000' still sticks in my mind.

Speaking of old 125's remaining in service, I can remember reading in Flight about 30 years ago that early 125's had the potential to remain in service beyond 100 years old!

[possel]

Speaking of old 125's remaining in service, I can remember reading in Flight about 30 years ago that early 125's had the potential to remain in service beyond 100 years old!
I'd be surprised. I worked on the RAF Dominies in the 80s and I reckon they did well to last just over 40 years. I'm sure there are finite lives in terms of Fatigue Index and Pressurisation cycles but I forget what they are. Otherwise, I'd guess that it is corrosion which would usually be the problem, and if you want you can carry on replacing bits after it ceases to be cost effective!

[dixi188]

The DH/HS/BAe125 seems to be a favourite with drug runners.

[Gbflyer]

The 125 was a tough bird. I can remember seeing photos on the Chester Broughton production line In the nineties of a 125 flying over Africa that had one engine shot out by local warriors. Despite Extensive damage the crew managed amazingly to keep it airborne until reaching friendly territory. No doubt another knowledgeable source can fill in the details as to why it was shot up.

[dash7fan]

I read about this accident and had the same problem with the ADI. ADI showed slowly a wrong attitude without warning flags. I was alerted and could fly disregarding the wrong indication. I was flying a Citation II. Accident was before 1984 as I stopped flying Citations in 1984. I cant remember thy Typ of the accident aircraft.

[megan]

Gbflyer, the details.A BAe-125 owned by the Botswana Government was carrying the President of Botswana, J.K. Quett Masire, and his staff to a meeting in Luanda. An Angolan MiG-23 Flogger pilot fired two R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) missiles at the plane. One missile hit the no. 2 engine, causing it to fall off the aircraft. The second missile then hit the falling engine. The captain of the business jet was incapacitated when the cabin steward was blown forward, onto him. The co-pilot made a successful emergency landing on a bush strip at Cutio Bie.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880807-0

[fauteuil volant]

The 125 was a tough bird......

But not when a bird strike takes out both engines (G-BCUX).

[Jhieminga]

Gbflyer, the details.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880807-0
Worth mentioning that the co-pilot in question was BAe training captain and demonstration pilot Arthur Ricketts. His account is here: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-a-cuban-flown-angolan-mig-23-accidentally-fired-two-missiles-at-a-bae-125-business-jet-carrying-the-president-of-botswana/

[DaveReidUK]

But not when a bird strike takes out both engines (G-BCUX).

Even in that accident it would be reasonable to describe the 125 as a "tough bird". The aircraft remained substantially intact after overrunning the runway, crossing a ditch which tore the gear off and hitting a passing car and some concrete posts before coming to rest.

All 9 occupants escaped, 8 without any injury, although tragically all six occupants of the car that was hit perished.

[BSD]

Whilst not a 125 (Westwind) not at Luton (Sydney, Kingsford-Smith) and well below 12,000' the only executive jet, ADI related accident I can recall was the Pel-air crash.

Most unlikely to be the one you are trying to recall, the accident report (discussed in past years on PPRUNE) makes for very sobering reading.

It was most likely caused by a reckless and ridiculous act, that began to align the "Swiss cheese slices" leading to tragic and needless loss of life.

The Westwind, which originated if I'm not mistaken from a Ted Smith design was, like the 125, one tough old bird. Not tough enough though for the sort of abuse it got in this case.

If today's pilots read this report they will no doubt give thanks that a) such practices are long gone and b) extensive use is made of very impressive simulators.

Best wishes to all,

BSD.

[spekesoftly]

The pilot of the G-BCUX accident at Dunsfold was also the pilot of another 125 that landed wheels-up at Luton. No injuries and relatively minor damage to the aircraft.

[fauteuil volant]

John Cunningham was at the controls of G-BCUX on 20 November 1975.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Even in that accident it would be reasonable to describe the 125 as a "tough bird". The aircraft remained substantially intact after overrunning the runway, crossing a ditch which tore the gear off and hitting a passing car and some concrete posts before coming to rest.

All 9 occupants escaped, 8 without any injury, although tragically all six occupants of the car that was hit perished.

Am I mistaken, but weren't the occupants tragically killed in the car one of the crew's wife and kids on their way to the airfield "to see dad flying" ?

[treadigraph]

It was a fellow HSA test pilot's family as I recall on their way home from school. My recollection is John was visiting from Hatfield? A very sad accident.

My school was close by (my first term there) and it was a "current events" topic covered by our housemaster who was also head of history. Think Graham Hill's crash happened shortly afterwards.

[bingofuel]

I can recall reading of an incident, I am quite sure it was a Citation in England around the years you speak of, flown single pilot, which had a very slow to erect LHS attitude indicator.
The pilot rushed the departure and allegedly took off utilising the RHS attitude indicator whilst flying from the left seat. Clearly knowing these facts imply it was not a fatal accident, but it must have become some form of serious incident which he managed to recover from, with a subsequent investigation, otherwise no one would have known!

Could this be what you remember?

[fauteuil volant]

Vis à vis the G-BCUX incident, it was the wife and two daughters of Leslie 'Dick' Whittington (who was involved in the test flight programme of the Folland Midge/Gnat) who, along with three other pupils of St. Catherine's School, Bramley, died when the car in which they were travelling was hit when the H.S.125 slid across the A281 Horsham to Guildford road. Apparently he was in the tower when the accident occurred but wasn't, unsurprisingly, aware of who was involved - until later.

[ZeBedie]

I can recall reading of an incident, I am quite sure it was a Citation in England around the years you speak of, flown single pilot, which had a very slow to erect LHS attitude indicator.
The pilot rushed the departure and allegedly took off utilising the RHS attitude indicator whilst flying from the left seat. Clearly knowing these facts imply it was not a fatal accident, but it must have become some form of serious incident which he managed to recover from, with a subsequent investigation, otherwise no one would have known!

Could this be what you remember?
Yes and I am inclined to think it was a single pilot operation

[Cornish Jack]

I was introduced to 'Dick' W via SWMBO and her best friend who were both working at Dunsfold at the time. It was, and is for those remaining, a close community and the scars still remain. I did some domestic computer work for Dick and, unsurprisingly, he was (it seemed to me) 'going through the motions'. Desperately sad.

[SpringHeeledJack]

Heartbreaking for such an event to happen, talk about chance......and multiplied many times by the personal connections at both ends of the tragedy.

[DaveReidUK]

I can recall reading of an incident, I am quite sure it was a Citation in England around the years you speak of, flown single pilot, which had a very slow to erect LHS attitude indicator.
The pilot rushed the departure and allegedly took off utilising the RHS attitude indicator whilst flying from the left seat. Clearly knowing these facts imply it was not a fatal accident, but it must have become some form of serious incident which he managed to recover from, with a subsequent investigation, otherwise no one would have known!

Could this be what you remember?

Now I'm even more confused. Are we now saying the aircraft in the original post didn't crash, after all?

[bingofuel]

In the incident I recall, the details of what happened would suggest if it crashed the pilot survived to explain what he did.

[fauteuil volant]

I was introduced to 'Dick' W via SWMBO and her best friend who were both working at Dunsfold at the time. It was, and is for those remaining, a close community and the scars still remain. I did some domestic computer work for Dick and, unsurprisingly, he was (it seemed to me) 'going through the motions'. Desperately sad.

It appears that he died in 2008.

[Momoe]

Partenavia P-68 with suspected faulty AH out of East Midlands 1990?

[ZeBedie]

Now I'm even more confused. Are we now saying the aircraft in the original post didn't crash, after all?

Well I thought it did. It's surprising how hard it is to find accident reports going back to the 70's and 80's. Even in this digital age, so much of our history seems to be slipping away.

[Dan Winterland]

I'd be surprised. I worked on the RAF Dominies in the 80s and I reckon they did well to last just over 40 years.

Don't forget that the Dominies spent a lot of their life at low level, an environment not envisaged for the type's operation - but being originally a De Havilland design, it was built strong. Interestingly, the Lear 23/25 and Falcon 20 were both built from fighter designs (The Swiss P16 and Dassault Mystere) and are consequently also tough. And both of these have hard point attachmetns on the wings.

[fauteuil volant]

Well I thought it did. It's surprising how hard it is to find accident reports going back to the 70's and 80's. Even in this digital age, so much of our history seems to be slipping away.

A couple of years back, I was in correspondence with the AAIB on this subject. If I remember correctly, I was told that most reports from the eighties onward either had been or were going to be put online and all earlier reports either had been or would be lodged, with the AIB/AAIB files, with the National Archives at Kew. I suspect that the chances of the NA ever putting those online is remote and a personal visit is always going to be the norm for those.

[DaveReidUK]

A couple of years back, I was in correspondence with the AAIB on this subject. If I remember correctly, I was told that most reports from the eighties onward either had been or were going to be put online and all earlier reports either had been or would be lodged, with the AIB/AAIB files, with the National Archives at Kew. I suspect that the chances of the NA ever putting those online is remote and a personal visit is always going to be the norm for those.

That's my understanding, too. The AAIB's own online search is pretty dire, partly because the underlying database is flaky.

Getting back to the original topic, while I enjoy a mystery as much as the next person, this one is changing criteria faster than I can keep up with so I'll leave the search to those with more patience than I have.

[PaulH1]

Whilst not a 125 (Westwind) not at Luton (Sydney, Kingsford-Smith) and well below 12,000' the only executive jet, ADI related accident I can recall was the Pel-air crash.

Most unlikely to be the one you are trying to recall, the accident report (discussed in past years on PPRUNE) makes for very sobering reading.

It was most likely caused by a reckless and ridiculous act, that began to align the "Swiss cheese slices" leading to tragic and needless loss of life.

The Westwind, which originated if I'm not mistaken from a Ted Smith design was, like the 125, one tough old bird. Not tough enough though for the sort of abuse it got in this case.

If today's pilots read this report they will no doubt give thanks that a) such practices are long gone and b) extensive use is made of very impressive simulators.

Best wishes to all,

BSD.
Yes the 125 is a very tough bird. I remember seeing a newspaper article years ago where a 125 had been hit by a SAM over somewhere in Africa. It blew one engine off but the aircraft remained controllable and flew on to land safely. The photo showed the aircraft on the ground with a engine missing!

[fauteuil volant]

I remember seeing a newspaper article years ago where a 125 had been hit by a SAM over somewhere in Africa. It blew one engine off but the aircraft remained controllable and flew on to land safely. The photo showed the aircraft on the ground with a engine missing!

See posts #13 and #15 above.

[Flap40]

I’ve found this report from late 1984 which seems to have the ADI as a possible cause....

https://www.baaa-acro.com/sites/default/files/2020-03/EI-BGL.pdf

[GotTheTshirt]

The incident referred to was an HS125 owned by Beechams and maintained and crewed by Autair
It was Christmas eve and they had be checking out a new co-pilot in the afternoon.
They stopped for waiting for dark(,and a cuppa ) -and aircraft was ready in the evening.
The Training Captain ( Hazlehurst I think not sure !).
Took off when it was dark and were doing the engine failure on takeoff.
The aircraft crashed o to the Vauxhall factory at the end of the runway.
Being Christmas eve the assembly line was not working
With the FDR info the profile was flown on the HS 125 simulator in the USA.
I was concluded that the training captain pulled back one engine and the pupil shut down the other engine.
The end of the assembly line and the end of the building was destroyed - And aircraft !)
Vauxhall pulled in a 24 hour crew ( on Christmas eve !) and they worked round the clock. The line was running when the people returned to work after Christmas

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

The Captain's name was not Hazlehurst. Not that it's relevant all these years later.

[DaveReidUK]

The incident referred to was an HS125 owned by Beechams and maintained and crewed by Autair
It was Christmas eve and they had be checking out a new co-pilot in the afternoon.
They stopped for waiting for dark(,and a cuppa ) -and aircraft was ready in the evening.
The Training Captain ( Hazlehurst I think not sure !).
Took off when it was dark and were doing the engine failure on takeoff.
The aircraft crashed onto the Vauxhall factory at the end of the runway.
Being Christmas eve the assembly line was not working
With the FDR info the profile was flown on the HS 125 simulator in the USA.
I was concluded that the training captain pulled back one engine and the pupil shut down the other engine.
The end of the assembly line and the end of the building was destroyed - And aircraft !)
Vauxhall pulled in a 24 hour crew ( on Christmas eve !) and they worked round the clock. The line was running when the people returned to work after Christmas

Obviously that's not the event referred to in the original post (assuming said event happened at all).

[ericferret]

That's my understanding, too. The AAIB's own online search is pretty dire, partly because the underlying database is flaky.

Getting back to the original topic, while I enjoy a mystery as much as the next person, this one is changing criteria faster than I can keep up with so I'll leave the search to those with more patience than I have.
If you can pin down the accident the AAIB are very helpful. Supplied me with the accident report for the crash of a Hughes 300, American registered, from 1964.

[Brookmans Park]

The Autair 125 captain was Harry Broadhurst,not to be confused with "Hazel" Hazelden former Handley Page Chief Test Pilot and long term Autair/Court Line trainer,whose own career is worth Googling

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

I think in fairness to the Training Captain's Family (And a very experienced pilot he was too) you chaps should get his name right before posting.

Harry Dryhurst.

[Herod]

Capt Hedley "Hazel" Haselden, Base Captain Air Anglia Aberdeen, late seventies. I had the honour of doing my RHS line-training with Hazel in '79, on the F27. To give some idea of this man's experience. I as born in '46. Hedley was on No. 1 ETPS course in 1943. In other words, I was being trained by someone who was a test pilot three years before I was born! The phrase "he had forgotten more about flying than I was to learn in a 38 year career" was very true.

[Arthur Bellcrank]

Captain Hazelden was chief test pilot of Handley Page Ltd and spent ten years on the Herald development, he piloted the modified HPR7 G-AODE that crashed at Godalming in 1958. This was caused by an uncontained LP turbine failure on the No 2 engine, however despite this Sqn Ldr Hazelden wrote very warmly about the Dart Herald in the introduction to the book by G Cowell, he compared it to the F27 and the HS748 and in his opinion the Herald was the nicest to fly.

[Herod]

"Hazel's" Herald accident was quite a story. As Arthur says, the turbine disc failed and succeeded in badly rupturing the fuel lines. No means of shutting off the fuel, therefore the extinguishers had no effect. The stbd tailplane burnt away, and eventually No. 2 engine fell off. However, the wing continued to burn. Selecting the landing site, Hazel found an 80 ft high tree and a farm roller at his selected touchdown point and High Tension cables further ahead. Over the tree and under the cables. No one was hurt.

Oh, and a true gentleman to boot. An honour to have flown with him.

[bean]

Gross thread drift but Arthur Bellcrank is right. The Herald was very highly regarded by its pilots.
Herod did the F27 have spring servo tabs? Was it pleasant to fly? Pure curiosity

[bean]

There are at least 2 more turbine wheel departures on darts in GB alone. HS748 at Stansted and F27 at Jersey

[Herod]

Bean. More thread drift. Regarding tabs, I can't recall for sure (it was 32 years ago I left the fleet). Pleasant to fly, yes, except when flap was deployed. Aileron response then was rather sluggish. Perhaps the reason Fokker put the "foklkets" on the F-50 wingtips, presumably to limit spanwise flow. Built like a tank, and could take anything the weather could throw at it.

[treadigraph]

I remember seeing an aerial pic of the Herald in a field at Milford after the prang with something of an s shaped trail left in the dirt behind it. To the west, I fancy of the present A3. As I recall it had been on a SBAC photo shoot with Farnborough's C-82 /C-119?

[DaveReidUK]

The Herald was in formation with a Victor for photos en route from Woodley to the Farnborough display. Other reports mention a Hastings, which may have been the camera ship.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x915/g_aodf_crash_ced86c7a14fbd54298190fe8a56851bafeb95f27.jpg

Handley Page Dart Herald (G-AODE) crash, Milford, August 1958 (http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=irsv9svfrvfdh01pd949bt6266&topic=14965.msg63024#msg63024)

[Herod]

Thanks, Dave, not seen that pic before. Regarding the Hastings, I belive there was one acting as a camera ship. I've not seen any pictures from that though. One of the Herald still airborne would have been interesting.

[treadigraph]

Now you mention it I think it was indeed a Hastings. There was an article about the accident in one of the magazines years ago - Flypast or Aeroplane Monthly perhaps.

I've seen other air to air stuff which was shot from a C-119 which confused me until I saw something about the RAE having one for a bit! Spot of conflation there...

Edit: RAE had loan of a C-119 for about six weeks in the Spring of 1955.