USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130 [Archive]

tartare

30th Sep 2020, 04:08

Picture here of the Herc after a forced landing in a field!
https://news.usni.org/2020/09/29/marine-f-35b-crashes-after-collision-with-kc-130-over-california-all-aircrew-recovered-safely
and more pix and info from local ABC affiliate here:
https://twitter.com/KESQ?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E13 11095116140933120%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thedrive.com%2Fthe-war-zone%2F36806%2Freports-say-a-military-aircraft-has-crashed-near-the-salton-sea-in-california

fallmonk

30th Sep 2020, 05:19

Glad everyone is safe

dead_pan

30th Sep 2020, 06:29

Outer starboard prop appears to be absent on the Herc

Just This Once...

30th Sep 2020, 06:32

Yikes - only 1 engine looks to be intact.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x791/screenshot_2020_09_30_at_07_39_08_2_b81a4b570080c6184a057708 9947eb6821a34e0f.jpg

salad-dodger

30th Sep 2020, 06:39

And is that fuel pouring out of the port wing?

TheEdge

30th Sep 2020, 06:49

Outer starboard prop appears to be absent on the Herc
It would be interesting to know what have caused this

BEagle

30th Sep 2020, 06:52

Left AAR pod missing
#1 prop missing a blade, others badly damaged
#2 prop possibly damaged
#3 engine severely damaged
#4 engine severely damaged
Right external tank missing
Landing gear and flaps up
Fuel leak from left wing

Very well done to the Marine aviator who managed to pull off a successful forced landing!

tartare

30th Sep 2020, 06:52

It would be interesting to know what have caused this

Possibly a 5th generation fighter...?

junior.VH-LFA

30th Sep 2020, 07:03

Brings a new meaning to having to go and hit the tanker.

BZ to the driver, that’s impressive.

Bob Viking

30th Sep 2020, 07:18

When I read the first post that said ‘forced landing’ I tutted to myself and thought ‘you mean he made an emergency landing’.

It would appear I was wrong to tut. That really does look like a forced landing.

A lot of the damage may be attributable to the forced landing itself of course but either way that looks like a hell of a bit of skill and decision making to land such a badly damaged aircraft in such a location.

BV

Tashengurt

30th Sep 2020, 07:41

dead_pan

30th Sep 2020, 07:47

Let the PPRuNe BoI commence!

Can a Herc fly on one Engine?

Fareastdriver

30th Sep 2020, 07:48

The background scenery could well be the propellor blade removal culprits.

dead_pan

30th Sep 2020, 07:49

There does seem to be quite a debris field behind the left wing.

Could be the perspective of the photo. It appears that the Herc veered to the left so the debris may be from the fuselage itself.

Capt Scribble

30th Sep 2020, 08:05

Let the PPRuNe BoI commence!

Can a Herc fly on one Engine?
The answer being the same to the question posed of the RAF Anglo French pussy cat. The remaining engine will simply take you to the scene of the crash.

Fonsini

30th Sep 2020, 08:37

I doubt that pilot will need to pay for any drinks for quite some time, great job indeed.

Does anyone know what time the accident occurred, night time refuelings between FJs and Hercs are notoriously risky, witness the 2018 crash off Japan.

Tashengurt

30th Sep 2020, 08:38

Could be the perspective of the photo. It appears that the Herc veered to the left so the debris may be from the fuselage itself.

Yes, I just meant some bits might have been knocked off in the landing rather than the collision.
From the audio it appears they'd lost engines 3&4.

atceng

30th Sep 2020, 08:44

Green Flash

30th Sep 2020, 08:45

More here https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36809/listen-to-intense-air-traffic-control-audio-of-kc-130js-collision-with-an-f-35b

GeeRam

30th Sep 2020, 09:11

Does anyone know what time the accident occurred, night time refuelings between FJs and Hercs are notoriously risky, witness the 2018 crash off Japan.

Link posted in OP says 4pm local time.

Rigga

30th Sep 2020, 09:11

And is that fuel pouring out of the port wing?

Outer Tank is no longer fitted....

Fonsini

30th Sep 2020, 09:17

Link posted in OP says 4pm local time.

Thanks, that answers one key question.

Trumpet trousers

30th Sep 2020, 09:30

Glad everyone is safe. There's an opportunity for Marshalls/MOD to flog another C130J to the US now!

OldLurker

30th Sep 2020, 09:51

What happened to the F-35 pilot - and what happened to his aircraft?

Beamr

30th Sep 2020, 09:57

What happened to the F-35 pilot - and what happened to his aircraft?
Pilot elected to eject, and news is he's safe.
F35 made a smoking hole (based on news clip).

Deltasierra010

30th Sep 2020, 16:01

A C130 glider, the pilot did well to keep the wings level and find a soft field without obstructions, so lucky the controls surfaces weren’t a
damaged.

RAFEngO74to09

30th Sep 2020, 16:11

Audio with captions and chart of the area

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzDpjTduky4

RAFEngO74to09

30th Sep 2020, 16:11

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/782x830/image_da93416d2a48abc1cd7f8f975b7ea37c405faaf3.png

India Four Two

30th Sep 2020, 16:26

Lucky they were in the Salton Sea area which has a lot of flat fields rather than over the high desert.

Wokkafans

30th Sep 2020, 17:35

Can't comment on the authenticity of this:

https://twitter.com/gunner_schmulke/status/1311346310923145218?s=20

tdracer

30th Sep 2020, 18:02

Appears to me they lost engines 3&4 in the collision - the damage to the #1 prop and loss of the right hand underwing tank were from the forced landing.
Even if there was sufficient thrust to maintain level flight with two engines out, controllability with two engines out on the same side is problematic - perhaps more so due to the loss of various systems due to the engine damage.

Saintsman

30th Sep 2020, 18:39

That's a pretty expensive mishap. I wouldn't like to have that deducted from my pay.

T28B

30th Sep 2020, 18:45

/notasamod

As regards this post (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10895676): any landing that you can walk away from.
Nice job.

dead_pan

30th Sep 2020, 19:27

Can't comment on the authenticity of this:

https://twitter.com/gunner_schmulke/status/1311346310923145218?s=20

Well I'm pretty certain its not CGI, but I who knows if its the F35 involved in this incident. From the looks of it another few hundred yards and those witnesses could have been in the debris field.

Amazed there's almost always someone videoing on their phone.

aerolearner

30th Sep 2020, 19:29

A C130 glider, the pilot did well to keep the wings level and find a soft field without obstructions, so lucky the controls surfaces weren’t a
damaged.
Military officials confirm a fighter crashed near Salton City during air-to-air refueling, causing another military aircraft to make an emergency landing in Thermal.
A glider in Thermal... Couldn't ask for more! :)

sycamore

30th Sep 2020, 21:06

Going to require a lot of explaining how the tanker got clobbered from the front.....

Obba

30th Sep 2020, 22:04

Hopefully, not going to be one of those close to the bay ramp for a photo op moments....

Plenty of cameras, so if it did happen in refuelling there will/should be video.

Fortissimo

30th Sep 2020, 22:05

Going to require a lot of explaining how the tanker got clobbered from the front.....

I'm not sure why it needed to have been clobbered from the front? As all crew survived and the investigators will have access to the wreckage and data, there should be some answers coming out quite quickly. Hopefully the USMC will post the interim report on PPrune. ;)

What a fantastic job from the Herc crew - a great example of flying the aircraft all the way to impact and walking away as a result. BZ to whoever was flying, and I look forward to the sequel to 'Sully'!

chopper2004

30th Sep 2020, 22:11

USMC F-35B and USMC KC-130J both down after mid-air. Jet pilot ejected and Herc forced landed with those on-board OK. About 150nm East of San Diego.

I saw 6765 on the deck here at EGUN fortnight ago on the 12th (my photos below) it initially came into Marham as support for Wake Island Avengers deployment , then supposedly departed. Next thing it was on the deck at Mildenhall having gone U/s. After a while it left finally on the 15th

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/2f389f09_53a8_4184_b904_d705e60d8509_f6a389c63eb16b342b54611 a5580e6147ce093bf.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/133454e0_9b8c_456c_95f9_6b6f2696c86f_16552d8af243066b33028ee 0fb09081040f63489.jpeg

mijbil

30th Sep 2020, 23:11

I listened to the audio on the link provided by Green Flash. My experience with LA centre is that they are great but the last request by the controller was a bit off. "Can I give you the number for LA centre so you can call them on the ground?" Are you kidding? He's down to 2 engines and isn't sure about a fire. Leave him alone. My 2 cents.

I haven't flown a Herc but I have flown an Orion with virtually the same engines. Flying with 2 out on the same side is very possible. We practised it at least once per quarter (with Standards pilots only) to both a GA from Land (Full) flap and then next circuit to the touchdown. Those were pilot training weights (much lighter) but we would do it in the sim as well with a full bag of fuel. Not sure about the Herc but obviously it worked out.

smallonions

1st Oct 2020, 02:13

As we can't hear Raider 50 I am speculating that the controller knows the situation better than most and would like a call on the ground to confirm all is well.

Mafortion

1st Oct 2020, 02:20

I listened to the audio on the link provided by Green Flash. My experience with LA centre is that they are great but the last request by the controller was a bit off. "Can I give you the number for LA centre so you can call them on the ground?" Are you kidding? He's down to 2 engines and isn't sure about a fire. Leave him alone. My 2 cents..

Actually, it does make sense. In one of the recordings you can hear (the ATC side anyway), that there is solid two-way communications most of the way down, so the crew had obviously had spare capacity to deal with ATC, as well as fly down. They might not be able to contact ATC on the radio once on the ground, either due loss of signal, or aircraft damage prohibiting its use, and so a phone number would allow the crew to contact ATC and apprise them of their status once on the ground, to allow for further assistance to be dispatched as needed.

megan

1st Oct 2020, 02:41

Can a Herc fly on one EngineYes, at very light weight, at least that's what a couple of drivers tell me.

fdr

1st Oct 2020, 06:24

being able to fly on one or two when in one piece is one thing; flying around with bits hanging in the breeze is another. After the F35B got rudely outmaneuvered by the frisky herk, all bets are off. Good job to be able to use the people again.

VMCA2 would have been increased considerably...

stuff happens.

[email protected]

1st Oct 2020, 07:11

Why wouldn't you use the international call of MAYDAY instead of saying you are declaring an emergency? It gets everyone's attention and there is no confusion that you are in a serious situation.

Just a spotter

1st Oct 2020, 08:15

Now that we know everyone got out safely, is it too early to ask if the Herc crew can claim the first verified air-to-air F35 kill?

:}

JAS

Bob Viking

1st Oct 2020, 08:16

I have noticed a reticence in N America to use either word. I never worked out why.

BV

Fortissimo

1st Oct 2020, 09:41

I was on freq when the then Lt Col Goldfein (just retired as Chief of Staff) was shot down in his F16CJ during the Kosovo thing. He declared that he'd been hit, had lost his engine and was gliding. The USAF controller promptly asked if he was declaring an emergency. One of his wingmen simply announced he had ejected but I don't remember anyone using MAYDAY or actually 'declaring an emergency'. However, I do remember following 'Bammer' and 'Jammer' when one called 'come up 12345'. Sure enough, they were on 123.45 and talking in clear with coordinates etc. A Beadwindow call had no effect. The length of transmissions were probably enough for a home-on-jam missile to have had a realistic chance of success. Great CSAR though!

Sorry, minor thread drift. BV is right, they need to use the words which attract attention everywhere else in the world.

Chugalug2

1st Oct 2020, 11:32

I listened to the audio on the link provided by Green Flash. My experience with LA centre is that they are great but the last request by the controller was a bit off. "Can I give you the number for LA centre so you can call them on the ground?" Are you kidding? He's down to 2 engines and isn't sure about a fire. Leave him alone. My 2 cents.
.
Absolutely agree. The word MAYDAY immediately informs everyone on freq that an aircraft is in an emergency situation and to shut up unless being directly able to assist. Giving out phone numbers isn't! A direct result of MAYDAY not being used?

Remember flying from Changi to HK with Vietnam in full chat off the left wing tip. Our Violet Picture indicator (localiser type gauge monitoring Guard freq) was welded to the LH stop. If you listened in, it was being used as a chat freq! Not impressed.

As others have said, feather in their cap for the Herc pilot (though no doubt even now someone is lining him/her up for a black eye!) :ok:

sandiego89

1st Oct 2020, 12:08

Going to require a lot of explaining how the tanker got clobbered from the front.....

I would not assume it got clobbered from the front. Too much overtake by an F-35 coming in for refueling, or getting too close while on the hose could have the F-35 coming in from behind and hitting the pod/engines on the KC-130.

ancientaviator62

1st Oct 2020, 12:36

The occupational hazard of being a tanker is the possibility of being indecently assaulted from behind by the R/X a/c. Never happened to me but have had a couple of 'interesting' situations that could have ended differently. A tendency for the RX a/c to rush things ,miss the basket and then chase it usually results in these close calls. Not suggesting that was the case here but no doubt the USMC will find out in due course.

Easy Street

1st Oct 2020, 12:49

sycamore

1st Oct 2020, 13:13

However the collision occured,if it had been an older -130 ,with metal blades ,i doubt it would have turned out as it did,as the blades have broken cleanly,and the engines are on the wing....
It would be interesting to see the stbd side of the aircraft...
Don`t think it would have been able to get a 2-engine stabilising height in Californian temperatures,unless he was below about 110k AUW,(C-130K ODM),so it was well flown after the collision.....
Just change the engines,drop the gear,rough field t/o.....away we go.....

OldLurker

1st Oct 2020, 13:26

Why wouldn't you use the international call of MAYDAY instead of saying you are declaring an emergency? It gets everyone's attention and there is no confusion that you are in a serious situation.I suspect it's good old "not invented here", like insisting on using inHg instead of those cissy cheese-eating hPa.

Chugalug2

1st Oct 2020, 13:48

I suspect it's good old "not invented here", like insisting on using inHg instead of those cissy cheese-eating hPa.
Don't remind me OL. HP had to call for power to the engineer on approach in a Hastings. No problem, you soon got used to "-2, -4, -6, -4", and back to the first number you thought of. Then some suit decided that all UK mil boost gauges be changed from lbs to "Hg. Now you had to convert what you wanted, eg -4, double it, take the result away from 32, and then call for 24, etc. Nice steady 3 degree slopes suddenly turned into diverging sinusoidal excursions until we all learnt the new numbers by heart. Great for STANAG though!

sycamore

1st Oct 2020, 14:23

Easy,thought everyone had/used the same `hymn sheet`,ATP-...??

Harley Quinn

1st Oct 2020, 14:50

Out of interest and having a vague recollection that UK modified C130 tankers had to deliver fuel in a shallow dive due to differences in stall speeds of tanker and receiver, is there a narrow margin where the receiver overtaking the tanker is a possibility?

RatherBeFlying

1st Oct 2020, 15:17

Hopefully the local glider community can arrange a presentation for his first out landing:ok:

blind pew

1st Oct 2020, 16:21

Can't get any better than the fuel dipsticks on the iron duck measuring inches of kerosene.
"here John I'd like forty seven and three quarters please and keep the greenshield stamps".

RAFEngO74to09

1st Oct 2020, 16:29

From this close up it certainly looks like the F-35B had an overtake and may have gone between the #3 and #4 engines - look at the damaged underwing tank hanging off that appears to have been sliced !

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1672x838/image_5ebd6012ba3f3aa79a78055756000d9b31b52d9a.png

Sailvi767

1st Oct 2020, 16:47

Let the PPRuNe BoI commence!

Can a Herc fly on one Engine?

Yes, just not very far!

Joe Smith

1st Oct 2020, 17:01

I have noticed a reticence in N America to use either word. I never worked out why.

BV
Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.

vascodegama

1st Oct 2020, 17:04

Sycamore-from my short time in AAR I remember that ATP56 (or whatever it is called these days) allows boom receivers to join direct astern (although not from 70 miles!) It also strongly advises against such a procedure for probe and drogue. If the USMC don't follow said document, now might be a good time to start!

sandiego89

1st Oct 2020, 17:14

Also imagine the Marines will need to "buy the farm". Bet the (strawberry?) farmer gets a nice check to cover the crop loss associated with the incident, investigation and eventual recovery. Wonder how JP-5 tastes on strawberries.....

Just This Once...

1st Oct 2020, 17:43

From this close up it certainly looks like the F-35B had an overtake and may have gone between the #3 and #4 engines - look at the damaged underwing tank hanging off that appears to have been sliced !

It is impossible to say that, even from the photo. The underwing could have been hit by hose whiplash, prop blade or associated shrapnel, internal mechanical failure or indeed by an impact from the receiver aircraft. Same goes for the prop damage - when you start to shed a prop then anything around it is fair game. The metal-bladed Herc demonstrated a number of times the ease in which a shed blade from one side could take out an engine on the opposite side of the airframe. Prop blades don't find fuselage structure as an impediment to their energetic travels.

Just This Once...

1st Oct 2020, 17:53

Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.

I think us English speaking folk understand completely. Thankfully young children do not get to fly aircraft or pick their own RT procedures:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap4_section_1.html
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_3.htmlDistress and Urgency Communications

A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above.

Distress and urgency communications procedures discussed in the following paragraphs relate to the use of air ground voice communications.

The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.

Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions.

Bob Viking

1st Oct 2020, 18:05

What a great post. Smug and wrong all at the same time. Bravo.

BV

sycamore

1st Oct 2020, 18:13

H-Q,and Vasco, it all depended on the relative weights and heights of both tanker and receiver,not so much on stallspeed for `tobobogggganning`,or if there was weather ahead on the route,or `lo-speed/high speed` drogues...
We could t/o at 188k ,op .necessity,but it was a painful climb`,darn Sarf,limited by Vno3 and internal fuel transfer/usage.Only used it once for tanking from `IceStation Kilo` to refuel a `brown weather balloon`somewhere N of ` a North place`....Not so much of a problem for fast jets....
To this incident,intrigues me how you get a F-35 under/through the props/tanks without hitting the tailplane,or did it go over the wing ,hit the props,and they took out the stbd tank,but the stbd refuelling pod appears undamaged......maybe an ex-Blue Angel...?

Three Lima Charlie

1st Oct 2020, 18:18

The airplane is about 1000 meters from the end of runway 35 at Thermal airport.

F-16GUY

1st Oct 2020, 18:33

Besides the MAYDAY/PAN thing, another difference I have noted between the US and other nations is the stage at which tanker crews issue the clearance astern. The old and bold AAR mafia on here will be gratified to know that European tanker crews are still uniformly rigorous in waiting for joiners to be stabilised in the echelon position before issuing clearance astern. US tanker crews, not so much... my personal record (set within the last couple of years) is being cleared astern a KC-135 on first radio contact at 70 miles, with the crew seeming surprised when I asked whether I could join through echelon instead. Time and the investigation will tell whether the custom may have contributed in this case (noting the greater risk of misjudging closure on the slow KC-130) but regardless, it’s a cheese-hole that should be closed.

Why would this be an issue? Like any other rejoin to any position, astern or to the wing, you always put your flight path marker below, beside or behind to aircraft you are joining, until very close and close to co-speed. If you hit it while on your way to the astern position, you would probably also hit it if cleared to the inside wing during a turning rejoin....

MPN11

1st Oct 2020, 19:12

In the 70s, as an ATCO at Eastern Radar, I was tasked with giving lectures to new USAF crews in the UK at LKH, BTW and UPH. I thing I still have the slides! Part of the emphasis was on using the proper terms (MAYDAY or PAN), explaining the UK D&D organisation and reassuring them there was no fee. Interesting to see that 50 years later US Mil continues to plough its own furrow (literally), regardless. :ugh:

Perhaps my best/worst case was in ‘68, with a TF-100 pilot who had ejected ... and while floating down into the North Sea east of Strubby used his PLB to transmit on 243.0 and say “This is Wiggins, anybody there?”. He was triangulated and recovered by SAR from Coltishall ... sadly his colleague was never found.

Sailvi767

1st Oct 2020, 19:31

Besides the MAYDAY/PAN thing, another difference I have noted between the US and other nations is the stage at which tanker crews issue the clearance astern. The old and bold AAR mafia on here will be gratified to know that European tanker crews are still uniformly rigorous in waiting for joiners to be stabilised in the echelon position before issuing clearance astern. US tanker crews, not so much... my personal record (set within the last couple of years) is being cleared astern a KC-135 on first radio contact at 70 miles, with the crew seeming surprised when I asked whether I could join through echelon instead. Time and the investigation will tell whether the custom may have contributed in this case (noting the greater risk of misjudging closure on the slow KC-130) but regardless, it’s a cheese-hole that should be closed.

The C130 is a tactical tanker in the Marine Corp. As such the tanking is done under quite different conditions than strategic tanking. As a example tanking is often done as low as 500 feet AGL and often EMCON so no radio use is allowed.
It may also turn out that this accident is not pilot error. A bad basket or ruptured hose could sends hundreds of lbs of fuel down the intake. I have no idea how a F35 engine would react to that but it has created serious issues in other aircraft types. The probe on the F35 is in a bad location relative to the intake.

[email protected]

1st Oct 2020, 21:08

Bob Viking - ROFL:ok::)

olster

1st Oct 2020, 21:24

I agree Bob V, funny and spot on.

salad-dodger

1st Oct 2020, 21:32

Bob Viking - ROFL:ok::)
typical Bob V humour - brilliant!

Bob Viking

2nd Oct 2020, 04:36

I’m here all week.

BV

spleener

2nd Oct 2020, 06:33

Don't leave the room yet then Bob!

tdracer

2nd Oct 2020, 06:38

So, the argument here is if it's better to declare an emergency by saying:
a) Mayday!
or
b) Emergency!

Seriously? :ugh:

megan

2nd Oct 2020, 07:06

Seriously?Afraid so TD, there are emergencies, and then there are emergencies, to differentiate there are two distinct words to inform the world of your state, MAYDAY and PAN. The first is self evident, PAN calls take priority over every other calls on the radio except MAYDAY calls and should be used when someone is not in grave an imminent danger and does not require immediate assistance, but has an urgent situation. The urgent situation may be the result of degradation of aircraft systems , you spot a boat, vehicle or aircraft needing urgent assistance, you get lost or need navigation assistance, when you need to break rules to stay safe etc etc. In the civil world ICAO doesn't recognise the word "Emergency", cases of pilots using "Emergency" or other phrases other than "pan-pan" and "mayday" have caused confusion and errors in aircraft handling by ATC.

https://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/aic/AIC21-12.pdf

ancientaviator62

2nd Oct 2020, 07:12

Having seen the latest picture I too wondered if any pf the prop blades or other debris had penetrated the fuselage. We usually tanked straight and level as I recall
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x701/hercules_aar_plugged_in2_1__aaefe7710527d9331fc59e3c73ea2f35 0f9b6628.jpg
(185 kts ?) except for the Falklands airbridge when we did the toboggan descent when tanking the freighter.. As far as I can recall all joins for fuel were commenced on the starboard wing where the Co could see them.
It must be remembered that the RAF C130 tanker only had one (80 ft) hose on the centreline through an aperture in the closed cargo door whereas the US C130 tankers use wing pods I believe.

dead_pan

2nd Oct 2020, 08:07

Harley Quinn

2nd Oct 2020, 08:21

How easy is it to tank a fast jet from a Herc compared to something like a KC135 or KC10? Idly wondering whether this incident is in part a consequence of the USMC's desire to maintain an independent tanking capability.

Not just USMC, USN must have the same issue. How practical would it be to have a carrier-borne boom equipped tanker?

Easy Street

2nd Oct 2020, 08:28

Why would this be an issue? Like any other rejoin to any position, astern or to the wing, you always put your flight path marker below, beside or behind to aircraft you are joining, until very close and close to co-speed. If you hit it while on your way to the astern position, you would probably also hit it if cleared to the inside wing during a turning rejoin....

As with everything, it’s not an issue if you don’t screw up. The point is that a straight join to an astern position provides more opportunity to screw up than a turning join or a straight join to echelon, especially as the final stage of a probe-and-drogue join involves a climb to co-altitude. This naturally encourages the flight path marker to be placed a little closer to the tanker than is probably the case when joining to the boom waiting position.

ancientaviator62

2nd Oct 2020, 08:47

ancientaviator62

2nd Oct 2020, 09:10

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x702/hercules_waiting_to_tank_f25bd6b35afe640a1c383b263cce34114ba 6cc84.jpg
Managed to find a pic of a RX in the 'waiting room' before being cleared astern to commence tanking

farefield

2nd Oct 2020, 10:59

The point about joining the tanker in echelon means that you can come steaming in and then put the speedbrakes out whilst, as you pull level with the flight deck, announcing you've finally arrived from 70 miles away. Useful in EMCON silent conditions.

Surely you do have to be more circumspect when joining directly astern.

I remember during GW1 on a night towline in NW Saudi, a US Navy S-3 Viking had joined astern, plugged in and started taking fuel before the Eng had noticed. Had he joined on the left and moved abeam the flight deck, I would suggest it would have been safer.

MATELO

2nd Oct 2020, 11:35

Is this definitely a mid air collision, or could the Herc have had an engine fail, with the resulting debris catapulting back to take out the aircraft behind.

Easy Street

2nd Oct 2020, 11:57

Is this definitely a mid air collision, or could the Herc have had an engine fail, with the resulting debris catapulting back to take out the aircraft behind.

The LiveATC recording linked above has the Herc crew saying they'd had a midair with the F35 and had lost 2 engines. I'd say that was definitive.

Imagegear

2nd Oct 2020, 12:00

The picture overcomes a thousand words:

Double, simultaneous, uncontained failures in 3 and 4, going forward and shredding each individual prop?

I don't think so.

IG

Oops, beaten by Easy Street:ok:

Sailvi767

2nd Oct 2020, 12:12

How easy is it to tank a fast jet from a Herc compared to something like a KC135 or KC10? Idly wondering whether this incident is in part a consequence of the USMC's desire to maintain an independent tanking capability.

The J model herk is not bad as it can maintain a higher speed than the earlier models. With the earlier model herk you knew you were topped off when you stalled! Tactical tanking especially at low altitude in turbulence was always interesting. The F18 AOA probe was right under the refueling probe. Missing the basket sometimes resulted in knocking off the AOA probe which promptly went down the right intake! Missing the steel basket on the KC135 could result in a smashed canopy or holes in the aircraft. Disconnecting from that basket could be more critical than connecting. If you were not exactly in the position the basket would free stream in as you unplugged the basket would swing wildly around. Easiest by far is the KC10 with a big soft fluffy basket!

West Coast

2nd Oct 2020, 12:24

Afraid so TD, there are emergencies, and then there are emergencies, to differentiate there are two distinct words to inform the world of your state, MAYDAY and PAN. The first is self evident, PAN calls take priority over every other calls on the radio except MAYDAY calls and should be used when someone is not in grave an imminent danger and does not require immediate assistance, but has an urgent situation. The urgent situation may be the result of degradation of aircraft systems , you spot a boat, vehicle or aircraft needing urgent assistance, you get lost or need navigation assistance, when you need to break rules to stay safe etc etc. In the civil world ICAO doesn't recognise the word "Emergency", cases of pilots using "Emergency" or other phrases other than "pan-pan" and "mayday" have caused confusion and errors in aircraft handling by ATC.

https://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/aic/AIC21-12.pdf

As this occurred in the US, between a US crew and a US controller, the most effective way to get the controller’s attention is with the use of the term declaring an emergency.

sycamore

2nd Oct 2020, 12:31

W-C, if you transmit `Mayday x3`,you should get everybody`s attention..!!

spleener

2nd Oct 2020, 12:45

As this occurred in the US, between a US crew and a US controller, the most effective way to get the controller’s attention is with the use of the term declaring an emergency.

100%!

I've time on the C130, and its a shame we are playing semantics when the Herc guy looks like he did such a great job! But... I'll bite! - after decades of sometimes pedantic sim sessions with a HK airline, I had cause to declare a Pan in Anchorage airspace. The controller simply asked " Err, are you declaring an Emergency?"..... K.I.S.S.

Harley Quinn

2nd Oct 2020, 12:56

Probably better to leave it at that; let the USA sink back into its isolationist torpor and prevent air traffic in either direction. Put a big impermeable bubble over the whole country.

Spooky 2

2nd Oct 2020, 14:56

Typical on pprune....

some people can’t live without trying their best to find something, anything wrong with what others pilots say or do.

He might have been under a tiny bit of stress, he got the message across. They did a damn good job.

but some cannot leave it be.

nit pick is the phrase.

Boy you got that right. Can't believe some of the stuff I see in this forum. A giant smoking hole in the ground but damn the guy was perfect in his radiotelephoney right til impact. Whew!

[email protected]

2nd Oct 2020, 15:13

The outrage bus must be full to bursting by now - goodness me some people need to get a sense of perspective.

When I first mentioned the lack of MAYDAY call it was an observation made after listening to the audio clip - I think the crew did a really great job getting the aircraft down safely - but the controller asks the pilot if he is declaring an emergency, something that would be made blindingly obvious by the use of MAYDAY.

I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA) but it seems counter-productive.

West Coast

2nd Oct 2020, 15:35

W-C, if you transmit `Mayday x3`,you should get everybody`s attention..!!

Screaming holy **** I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention.

Feel free to dissect what many of the pedants here believe is a systemic training issue of declaring emergency vs mayday/pan, however on that day, the phraseology that was most common to both the flight crew and the controller was “declaring an emergency”

West Coast

2nd Oct 2020, 15:41

BEagle

2nd Oct 2020, 15:55

Might I politely draw the attention of our colonial chums to Para 1c (1)(a) of Section A-2 of the DoD Flight Information Handbook?

c. DISTRESS or URGENCY CALL and MESSAGE

(1) Transmit as many of the following elements as necessary:

(a) *Distress, MAYDAY (3 times) or **Urgency, PAN PAN (3 times).

Anyhoo, all aircrew survived what could well have been a catastrophic event - some sound flying skills from that Marine aviator who saved his C-130 crew with multiple engine and system failures.

pasta

2nd Oct 2020, 15:59

At the risk of interrupting a lively debate: Looks like a lot of fuel coming out of that wing; anyone know how the ground decontamination is done? Do they just dig out huge volumes of earth and dump it in a landfill?

Deltasierra010

2nd Oct 2020, 16:12

A very large earth moving operation will be needed although the cost of that compared to the cost of the rest of the incident will be trivial

Bob Viking

2nd Oct 2020, 17:14

I agree we should not get wrapped around the axle about trivial details, since the Herc crew did an amazing job. I will just say though, that if there is one American I will listen to without question it’d be the great Chesley Sullenberger III:

15:27:32.9 RDO-1 mayday mayday mayday. uh this is uh Cactus fifteen thirty nine hit birds, we've lost thrust (in/on) both engines we're turning back towards LaGuardia.

BV

Tashengurt

2nd Oct 2020, 17:19

Why use four syllables when two will do?

LTCTerry

2nd Oct 2020, 18:03

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x589/hercules_aar_f4_1_41b738041c8fcde2a62e116d64fc8a94ab17bf0f.j pg
We could tank all the RAF FJ except the Lightning and Jaguar as I recall. Largest I was involved in was the Nimrod. It looked very large and close from my position !

My dad flew USN F-4s. I recall him describing refueling as closing at some level of minimum thrust and having one engine in burner before being done. Not a lot of performance overlap yet it has worked for 50 years.

Incredible picture. I have one somewhere my dad took of the basket from inside the Phantom as he tanked.

I'm curious to learn more about what happened with the F-35 and KC-130. Incredible flying to get everyone on the ground safely.

MPN11

2nd Oct 2020, 18:05

Why use four syllables when two will do?
Because verbosity is a National characteristic?

But from a grounded eagle, that appears to be masterly flying so I will cut some slack on the r/t procedure.

vascodegama

2nd Oct 2020, 18:08

sycamore -I said nothing about the relative speeds etc during AAR with a C130. I simply pointed out that ATP 56 strongly advises against joining direct astern a probe and drogue tanker. That said, on the that airbridges I did required toboggan because of the lack of spare power in the rx as well as a lack of compatible speed range. If memory serves the hose limiting speed was a major problem.

MightyGem

2nd Oct 2020, 19:34

Typical on PPRuNe....
some people can’t live without trying their best to find something, anything wrong with what others pilots say or do.

A bit like this really: :E
How many pilots does it take to change a nav light?

1 to change the nav light and to post that the nav light has been
changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing nav lights and how the nav light could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing nav lights

7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing nav lights

5 to flame the spell checkers

3 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "navlight" or "nav light"

... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
"position light"

15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "nav
light" is perfectly correct

19 to post that this forum is not about nav lights and to please take
this discussion to a navlight forum

11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use nav
lights and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum

36 to debate which method of changing nav lights is superior, where to buy the best nav lights, what brand of nav lights work best for this technique and what brands are faulty

7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different nav lights

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL's

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to
this group which makes nav lights relevant to this group

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the nav light controversy

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

13 to say "do a Google search on nav lights before posting questions about nav lights"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

TWT

2nd Oct 2020, 19:56

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 10 years from now and start it all over again :p

West Coast

2nd Oct 2020, 20:25

You nailed it Mightygem

[email protected]

2nd Oct 2020, 20:41

One couldn’t be blamed for believing you were driving that bus given you raised the R/T issue. That depends on whether you read what I actually wrote compared to what you think I implied......

Great post MG:ok:

Georg1na

2nd Oct 2020, 21:18

"Screaming holy **** I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention."

I have had one and all I used was a Mayday call. Seemed to work......................:ok:

gulliBell

3rd Oct 2020, 00:05

Given the size of the fireball seen in the video when the F35B smacked the dirt suggests to me it had quite a bit of fuel on board....maybe he'd taken/was taking on some gas when things went pear shaped. That's an expensive smoking hole in the ground, not to mention what it's going to cost to cleanup that strawberry field which is now a HAZMAT site.

capngrog

3rd Oct 2020, 01:17

Back during my seafaring days, I was taught that the proper way to announce a dodgy situation was "Pan Pan" and to announce a real hairball emergency was "Mayday". When I learned to careen across the skies back in the 1960s, I was taught the same way: use "Pan Pan" and "Mayday" I don't know about the military, but my experience was in the civilian aviation environment. I never officially flew for the military.

Of course there could be a bit of Francophobism associated with reluctance to utter the phrase "Mayday", which is allegedly a shortened bastardization of the French phrase "M' aidez moi". On the other hand, Francophiles may object to the shortening/bastardization of any French phrase, considering that use of such a term constitutes an attack on all things French; consequently, such folks would be reluctant to participate in any way in the decline of the French Language by uttering the phrase "Mayday". :rolleyes: Je ne sais pas.

I have always preferred the use of the "Pan and Mayday" codes because they seem to be fairly precise in their meaning, plus they add a bit of "je ne sais quoi" to the whole aviation/maritime experience.

Cheers,
Grog

megan

3rd Oct 2020, 03:36

Boy you got that right. Can't believe some of the stuff I see in this forum. A giant smoking hole in the ground but damn the guy was perfect in his radiotelephoney right til impact. Whew!Circumstances sometimes roll the dice in your favour, sometimes not, procedures/rules are written in blood it is oft said. The Herc crew certainly did a an absolutely great job, no denying. Having already declared a PAN there is little doubt the controller knew what Swissair 111 meant when they used the word "Emergency".

1:14:18.0 Swissair one eleven heavy is declaring Pan Pan Pan. We have uh smoke in the cockpit, uh request (deviate), immediate return uh to a convenient place, I guess uh Boston ***
1:25:05.4 And we are declaring emergency now Swissair one eleven
1:25:49.3 End of recording

All 229 died.

The link I previously gave was an outcome of the Avianca 52 crash at JFK, a 707 in which eight of the nine crew members (including all three flight crew members) and 65 of the 149 passengers on board were killed. The NTSB determined that the crash occurred due to the flight crew failing to properly declare a fuel emergency, failure to use an airline operational control dispatch system, inadequate traffic flow management by the FAA, and the lack of standardized understandable terminology for pilots and controllers for minimum and emergency fuel states. The crew had asked for "Priority" which didn't really communicate the predicament they were in.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR9104.pdf

"Screaming holy **** I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention."Yes, but it doesn't tell anyone the state you're in, just knocked the nav light off, wing came off your F-15 and managed to land OK, or you're ejecting. Should you need to eject just say "I'm ejecting", don't bother with all that MAYDAY nonsense. ;)

I guess we could adopt the attitude of the apocryphal story of a FJ type putting out a MAYDAY in Vietnam and being told in reply "Shut up and die like a man".not to mention what it's going to cost to cleanup that strawberry fieldCarrots a local says in one report, so should lower the cost.

capngrog

3rd Oct 2020, 03:56

idle bystander

3rd Oct 2020, 08:16

How many pilots does it take to change a nav light?
You forgot the
1 to post that there is no appostrophe in URLs

El Grifo

3rd Oct 2020, 09:04

Not to mention the long time lurker, who jumps in to correct the spelling of "apostrophe"

El G.

WHBM

3rd Oct 2020, 10:42

Looks like a lot of fuel coming out of that wing; anyone know how the ground decontamination is done? Do they just dig out huge volumes of earth and dump it in a landfill?
Bet California doesn't allow that. There are specialists with kit to do this. You truck all the contaminated ground away to them, where a centrifuge-like machine heats it, mixes it with water, splits it into components, etc and deals with it all. Expensive machine, not used that much, so costs a lot when you do. Charged by the ton. Meanwhile, truck back in fresh soil. Old roadside fuel station sites invariably have petrol and diesel which has leaked from the tanks into the ground below and needs this before you build something else there.

JumpJumpJump

3rd Oct 2020, 15:11

Should you need to eject just say "I'm ejecting", don't bother with all that MAYDAY nonsense. ;).

I might say that to my GIB (if so equipped), otherwise, I'm pulling the "handles" and getting out. Let ATC figure it out. Of course, it is always best to transmit as much information to ATC (or whomever) prior to ejection ... if there's enough time.

By the way, I have no experience with ejection seat-equipped aircraft. I'm just a card-carrying coward, and as soon as the idea "eject" entered my brain, I'm outta there. I do, however, have a couple of friends who successfully ejected from stricken aircraft ... one from an F-105 at near M-1.

Cheers,
Grog

Likewise never flown anything in which ejection is an option... However... I would imagine that in almost all cases, a 0.5-second call saying "Ejecting" would have a helicopter sent out to my location pretty quickly. If I am on the ground, in the middle of nowhere, with a broken leg.... I would not like to be thinking about whether or not the controller is still sitting at his chair trying to work out what was going on. Knowing the exact point of ejection would seriously reduce the search area, I guess.

I am purely guessing that the system as a whole might have an ELT, or the Military pilots might carry some sort of personal location device... however... If that hunch is right or wrong... a quick shout out couldn't do much harm....

... THinking further... in the circumstances of this thread... a quick shout of "Ejecting" allows the controller to focus more on the wounded Herc, as he isn't trying to work out what is happening with the other aircraft... the other aircraft is now isaac newton and the insurance company's problem

[email protected]

3rd Oct 2020, 16:27

The ejection seats either have a beacon integral to them or are connected to the pilot's beacon (or both) so that the distress signal is broadcast long before the pilot gets to the ground.

Pilots getting out of jets at Valley and forgetting to disconnect frequently set off their beacons and it wasn't unusual to have to hover around the base in a Wessex to locate the guilty Sqn.

Equally I ended up hovering outside a hangar in S Wales having homed to a PLB signal that was triggered during maintenance of a Harrier seat.

galaxy flyer

3rd Oct 2020, 19:21

I might say that to my GIB (if so equipped), otherwise, I'm pulling the "handles" and getting out. Let ATC figure it out. Of course, it is always best to transmit as much information to ATC (or whomever) prior to ejection ... if there's enough time.

By the way, I have no experience with ejection seat-equipped aircraft. I'm just a card-carrying coward, and as soon as the idea "eject" entered my brain, I'm outta there. I do, however, have a couple of friends who successfully ejected from stricken aircraft ... one from an F-105 at near M-1.

Cheers,
Grog

Thirty four years ago last month, I had a mid-air and ejected from an A-10. As there was nothing left of my airplane at 500’, I put the priority on pulling handles. Squadron received a phone call with approximate position before lead got ATC to call home base. So, no need to tell ATC, they’ll figure it out.

MightyGem

3rd Oct 2020, 19:30

You forgot the
1 to post that there is no appostrophe in URLs
That apostrophe worked as I thought it would though. :)

JPJP

3rd Oct 2020, 22:30

wiggy

3rd Oct 2020, 22:42

My dad flew USN F-4s. I recall him describing refueling as closing at some level of minimum thrust and having one engine in burner before being done. Not a lot of performance overlap yet it has worked for 50 years.

I'm idly wondering if that's me in ancientaviators picture...

Anyhow as I recall it ( Spey engined F-4M, tanking off C-130, generally at low level, "down south"), things like stall margin, lack of power, etc was never an issue, no need for burner or "tabogganing"..During my time on the F-4M I had the pleasure of tanking off the Victor, Vulcan, C-130, KC-135 (with the short hose attachment on the boom) and the VC-10 - the C-130 was the easiest by far IMHO..

The main issue/gotcha with the 130 was obviously (?) being aware that you were dealing with a tanker with a lower IAS than you normally dealt with, so watch the overtake..and if at low level not to stuff a handful of power on if you started were dropping back.. ..because the result could be spectacular...

As to the argument over RT ..I really can't get fussed..I spent plenty of years post mil flying into/out of the States - it's their train set and their R/T phraseology is their own, e.g... "position and hold" rather than "line up and wait"...etc..whatever, it all works out..

Big Pistons Forever

3rd Oct 2020, 22:53

A bit like this really: :E
How many pilots does it take to change a nav light?

1 to change the nav light and to post that the nav light has been
changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing nav lights and how the nav light could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing nav lights

7 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing nav lights

5 to flame the spell checkers

3 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "navlight" or "nav light"

... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
"position light"

15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "nav
light" is perfectly correct

19 to post that this forum is not about nav lights and to please take
this discussion to a navlight forum

11 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use nav
lights and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum

36 to debate which method of changing nav lights is superior, where to buy the best nav lights, what brand of nav lights work best for this technique and what brands are faulty

7 to post URL's where one can see examples of different nav lights

4 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URL's

3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to
this group which makes nav lights relevant to this group

13 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all
headers and signatures, and add "Me too"

5 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the nav light controversy

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

13 to say "do a Google search on nav lights before posting questions about nav lights"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again.

That was a brilliant rant

Ascend Charlie

3rd Oct 2020, 23:03

Doesn't the Martin Baker Departure Lounge also launch a bunch of chaff, to make a bigger radar splodge?

NutLoose

4th Oct 2020, 01:35

Praising the pilot of the Herc, deservedly so, it could all have gone terribly wrong

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2020/10/01/fuel-tanker-pilot-praised-for-keeping-crew-safe-after-mid-air-collision-with-f-35/

NutLoose

4th Oct 2020, 01:41

Bet California doesn't allow that. There are specialists with kit to do this. You truck all the contaminated ground away to them, where a centrifuge-like machine heats it, mixes it with water, splits it into components, etc and deals with it all. Expensive machine, not used that much, so costs a lot when you do. Charged by the ton. Meanwhile, truck back in fresh soil. Old roadside fuel station sites invariably have petrol and diesel which has leaked from the tanks into the ground below and needs this before you build something else there.

Yes, we had a bowser rupture the tank on a HAS door on 14 Sqn, they did exactly the same, I can still picture the FSgt trying to plug the huge hole with a sandbag like the little Dutch boy.

megan

4th Oct 2020, 02:15

That was a brilliant rantIt is, but he missed the step where someone posts a rant. ;) Only ever once been on an aircraft in which a MAYDAY was made, when I got to the "communicate" part of the aviate, navigate, communicate the copilot said "I've already done that", I was still at the aviate stage when he did so and completely missed the fact, he did an outstanding job.

NutLoose

4th Oct 2020, 04:00

He also missed out the Engineer would have to visit to repair the mess the pilot made of fitting the nav light in the first place. ;)

Tarnished

4th Oct 2020, 07:31

Still trying to imagine the sequence of events and actions that resulted in the coming together of these aircraft.

This link is boom AAR as opposed to probe and basket, but if you can manoeuvre an AWACS to avoid a catastrophe, then you should be able to do the same in an F35B I would have thought

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcLiAAVeYhk

Control restriction, lose article, sun in eyes .....

TUPE

4th Oct 2020, 07:53

ancientaviator62

4th Oct 2020, 08:29

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1886x1487/hercules_aar_phantom_1bfe2539a4c6631ba7a04f1c221a5631de0cf67 3.jpg
wiggy,
no idea who who the F4 crew were. I think the F4 was probably the most photographed a/c from this position on the RAF C130 tanker.

[email protected]

4th Oct 2020, 09:24

JPJP - not really understanding the point of your post. I was clarifying the existence of beacons on the seat for a previous poster - is that not allowed by the pprune police?

NutLoose

4th Oct 2020, 10:01

Yikes - only 1 engine looks to be intact.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x791/screenshot_2020_09_30_at_07_39_08_2_b81a4b570080c6184a057708 9947eb6821a34e0f.jpg

I would think the damage to No1 has been caused by the AAR pod detaching or a prop / pod ground strike during the landing event, it appears to be lying some distance behind the aircraft.. that much out of balance prop damage on a running eng would have resulted in the loss of the prop or engine..

Video Mixdown

4th Oct 2020, 10:01

wiggy,
no idea who who the F4 crew were.
Bet someone knows the captain of XV213 (taken around the same time) though!

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1577x1086/c_130_1312_flt_4_5aa547ae21b851da81dec726bf085859dd226d4e.jp g

roger4

4th Oct 2020, 10:22

I would think the damage to No1 has been caused by the AAR pod detaching or a prop / pod ground strike during the landing event, it appears to be lying some distance behind the aircraft.. that much out of balance prop damage on a running eng would have resulted in the loss of the prop or engine..

I think there is also a large dent to the port front fuselage around the cockpit glazing, seen best in the photo in post #61. Tree strike on very short final?

Big Bad Dave

4th Oct 2020, 11:04

Yep, the port drop tank probably ripped off the wing either during the mid air or during the emergency landing...

Big Bad Dave

4th Oct 2020, 11:05

Obviously not....

Sailvi767

4th Oct 2020, 12:35

Downwind.Maddl-Land

4th Oct 2020, 14:17

"Screaming holy **** I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention."

I have had one and all I used was a Mayday call. Seemed to work......................:ok:

As did: "XYZ, downwind, la....EJECTING!" (Nth Yorks airfield late 70's/v early 80's.)

Like MPN11, I was responsible for briefing, in this case, the monthly Upper Heyford Instrument School on UK ATC procedures that included the use of MAYDAY and PAN. The crews' main concern appeared to be the anticipated and associated 'investigation' and paperwork involved in the use of these pre-fixes. Most appeared mightily reassured that that no such bureaucracy existed in the UK - at least not from the ATC side - anyway. A briefing on the UK's D&D system, and that you could upgrade/downgrade/cancel your emergency call, usually drew expressions of relief and confidence too.

MPN11

4th Oct 2020, 17:37

Nicely said, DML ... sadly I never received that feedback. My presentation technique was obviously deficient!

JohnDixson

4th Oct 2020, 19:52

A very good friend who has significant experience in air refueling an HH-53C from a C-130 wondered if a contributing factor might have been sun angle at 1600 local. I looked up a sun angle calculator and took an easy out by using the data for LAX at that time of day, and the elevation angle is between 18 and 19 degrees. He may have a point, depending on how the join up was being run.
( and if the sun was out )

sycamore

4th Oct 2020, 21:05

JD, try `NOAA Solar Calculator`,,jus done it for LAX and Phoenix .... 246*az.26*el/Ph... 241*az.30*el LA.. Sunset1815 PH,.. 1839 LA....
As the a/c were at 17000 ft,he could see Thermal,and who wants to tank in IFR anyway.... no better day to pull off a landing like that....
If one looks closely it appears he had some flap,which if selected to 20* ,will give full hyd .pressure to the rudder,and also got full rudder trim,which you definitely need when double asymmetric on one side..it also looks like the stbd. drogue is in the pod,which might indicate it could have been a `hard- hose hit`,a broken probe,and as ``sailvi767` suggests,a load of fuel going down the F35 intake,over the canopy like a car wash...and no wipers...

JohnDixson

5th Oct 2020, 00:00

Sycamore, I used that site-must have fat fingered one of the inputs. Have to go back there and redo it. Anyway, as to the rest I can see where you are going and I’d guess that some information based on the debriefs will be available soon. Another point I considered is that if the sun was out and bright, the 130 PIC would have set it up so the 35 was looking down sun, not into it.

fdr

5th Oct 2020, 06:44

Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.

Joe, can you contact your friendly local FAA FSDO and get them to correct FAR-AIM Section 6-3-1 d, to reflect your position, please. They unfortunately still state:

"Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions."

Glad that you can improve standards in an international environment.

Ooops, can you also follow up and amend ICAO ANNEX 10, VOL 2, which differs from your standard, and, while you are at it, please amend ICAO DOC 9432 Section 9, para 9.1.3, it still uses the old apparently not appropriate term 'MAYDAY".

Anyway, glad you can help clear up the rest of the world and the FAA's standards to meet your requirements.

cheers

Dominator2

5th Oct 2020, 09:15

It amazes me that the United States Military still has such a “colonial” attitude towards R/T. The reluctance for a world power to use the Internationally agreed standard is appalling and does lead to misunderstandings around the world.

I recall back in 1978 flying a F4 in Germany when we suffered a major malfunction with a distinct possibility of having to eject. We declared a Mayday and diverted to the closest airfield. All was going well until on long finals to land when there was a off-putting amount of chat on frequency.

The American Flight Lead was arguing with ATC that his 4 ship had a range slot and his flight should be given priority over inbound traffic. When ATC explained that Mayday 01 was on long final cleared to land he replied “is Mayday 01 his callsign or does he have some kind of problem?”

I could not listen any longer and turned the radio volume fully down and continued to land. This Flight Lead showed a complete lack of understanding of the meaning and use of MAYDAY.

In later years I taught at a TFTS in the USA. Even then the students were taught to declare an IFE (In Flight Emergency) instead of Mayday and PAN. My students were all German and so we ensured that they were taught correctly.

When will they ever learn?

nipva

5th Oct 2020, 14:52

I am surprised that no one has commented on how fortunate the F35 pilot was on being able to eject. His canopy must have been very close to being the point of impact on his frame. For this to escape damege one can surmise that a possible scenario was too much overtake followed by a bunt under the Hercules wing with the twin fins being the possible scythes. .

flighthappens

5th Oct 2020, 14:57

flighthappens

5th Oct 2020, 15:00

Downwind.Maddl-Land

5th Oct 2020, 16:13

the whole mayday vs declaring an emergency discussion is ridiculous. who cares.

These are life-threatening situations being discussed and examined here, with a bleeding obvious Murphy, Gotcha, Swiss-cheese* moment staring the industry in the face.

Everyone should care; nobody appears to; right up until there is a "We are at take-off" moment.**

When everyone (especially on here!) will bleat: "Well that should have been closed-out YEARS ago...."

*delete/insert colloquialism of choice

**for the hard of understanding - the last transmission from a certain KLM flight at Tenerife 27 Mar 77.

RandomPerson8008

5th Oct 2020, 16:49

I'll bet AF447 used amazing R/T!

BEagle

5th Oct 2020, 17:04

I'll bet AF447 used amazing R/T!

They certainly didn't. Read the audio transcript. Slack RT, slack cockpit discipline and then....

MPN11

5th Oct 2020, 17:13

During my PPL training in UK in the 60s, whilst flying solo, I had a technical problem. I didn't waffle, I just declared PAN-PAN-PAN and got the immediate assistance a teenager needed ... even if it required someone in the Oxford circuit to land and get an Instructor into the Tower to tell me what to do!

I was relieved, and grateful, for the automatic response from the correct and published R/T call.

Dominator2

5th Oct 2020, 17:29

flighthappens,

The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.

There is absolutely no criticism of the way the C130 crew handled their emergency, however, there is an ongoing problem with the US Military failing to conform to Internationally agree standards.

As regards Tanker Joins, I have done as many as most and without the help of a "flight path marker". If the correct techniques are taught and followed AAR is not a dangerous event. It can become "almost" as commonplace as takeoff and landing. All piots should understand how to recognise a pending collision and how to avoid it. Of course, this accident may have been caused by something else. Only time (and a thorough investigation) will tell.

flighthappens

5th Oct 2020, 17:59

flighthappens,

The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.

Yawn.

There is absolutely no criticism of the way the C130 crew handled their emergency, however, there is an ongoing problem with the US Military failing to conform to Internationally agree standards.

As regards Tanker Joins, I have done as many as most and without the help of a "flight path marker". If the correct techniques are taught and followed AAR is not a dangerous event. It can become "almost" as commonplace as takeoff and landing. All piots should understand how to recognise a pending collision and how to avoid it. Of course, this accident may have been caused by something else. Only time (and a thorough investigation) will tell.

The point that an single US guy couldn’t grasp the significance of a Mayday, on one occasion, 42 years ago, doesn’t mean that every USAF driver has a similar lack of airmanship. It’s also the point that what they are taught may not be perfect per ICAO regulations but by and large remains effective at highlighting their comm.

I’ve had the privilege of working with many different communities around the world. They all achieve end effects in different ways. Sometimes it is easier to believe that things may be not wrong, but different. I doubt you are going to get much traction with CSAF telling 42 year old dits on PPrune.

Your last paragraph is completely irrelevant. You admit yourself that you don’t know what has caused the coming together, so why the pontification?

OldLurker

5th Oct 2020, 18:41

These are life-threatening situations being discussed and examined here, with a bleeding obvious Murphy, Gotcha, Swiss-cheese* moment staring the industry in the face.
Everyone should care; nobody appears to; right up until there is a "We are at take-off" moment.**
When everyone (especially on here!) will bleat: "Well that should have been closed-out YEARS ago...."
*delete/insert colloquialism of choice
**for the hard of understanding - the last transmission from a certain KLM flight at Tenerife 27 Mar 77."We are at take-off" was the last transmission, but lest we forget, the cockpit voice recorder continued:
Flight engineer: Is hij er niet af, die Pan American?
Captain: [i]Jawel. [Oh yes. (emphatic)]
12 seconds later:
Captain: Oh ****!
(sound of collision)

Chugalug2

5th Oct 2020, 18:44

If the FAA or DoD imposed specific alternative procedures for Emergency or Urgency calls within US airspace that differed from ICAO ones then there would be justification for using such variations. They do not, nor do most other national regulators AFAIK. So what justification is there for the use of such variations? The whole point about standardisation is that whatever one's mother tongue, whatever airspace you are transiting, you will understand what is said to you, and others will understand what you are saying to them. In an emergency this isn't just convenient, it is vital.

The irritation on this side of the pond is when such variations are exported into non-US airspace. We Brits may well irritate with our tendency to idiosyncrasy but we realise that an emergency is no time to start expressing it. You stick to the internationally agreed rules and hope that others do too. I would respectfully suggest that even if it is tolerated within the US, not sticking to those rules is a bad habit to get into. There are parts of the world where your colloquialisms will be misunderstood and the help that could have been forthcoming is lacking for want of a MAYDAY!

Lonewolf_50

5th Oct 2020, 18:49

I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA) but it seems counter-productive. That would be because you have no idea how the US military are trained, crab.
From Primary training, Mayday is taught as the call you make when declaring an emergency when not in radar contact.
The following is from PAT Pub # 764, page 7-19, which reflects Navy/Marine training (CNATRA).
I'll let USAF folks speak for themselves.
706. EMERGENCY VOICE REPORTS
Emergency voice reports will be made in the IDENTIFICATION, SITUATION, POSITION, AND INTENTION (ISPI) format.
In a non-radar environment (VFR, squawking 1200, and not in communications with RDO), emergency reports of an immediate or serious nature are preceded by the word "MAYDAY." Repeating MAYDAY three times is the widely accepted method of clearing the frequency for an emergency voice report. An example of an emergency voice report in a non-radar environment is as follows:
"MAYDAY! MAYDAY! MAYDAY! [Call sign], engine failure, approximately 8 miles southeast of Evergreen at 2,500 feet, executing a controlled ejection between Castleberry and five lakes area."
In a radar environment (Radar Contact), or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO, standard procedure for a distressed or urgent situation is to declare an emergency.
An example of an emergency voice report in a radar environment or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO is as follows:
"[Call sign] is declaring an emergency. Chip light, 5 miles east of Brewton at 4,500 feet. Executing a Precautionary Emergency Landing at Brewton." So there you go, crab; now you actually know something that you didn't know before.

Westy, if you've got further traffic that would be cool, as I recall that you've had some experience on the controller side of this.

BEagle

5th Oct 2020, 18:58

Lonewolf 50, just WHY do the USN and Mreenkaw-ooh-rah not follow the clear requirements of the DoD FIH with regard to RT calls in emergency situations?

NO EXCUSE - please join the rest of the world!

Nevertheless, whoever flew that C-130 to a successful landing did an outstanding job!

Lonewolf_50

5th Oct 2020, 20:53

Lonewolf 50, just WHY do the USN and Mreenkaw-ooh-rah b!
No need to be rude, BEagle, unless being in the RAF makes it compulsory.
I think I understand the logic on that bit of training. (And the reason that I looked it up on line was that it had been ages since I'd seen the book; it's posted on the CNATRA web site).
If not in radar contact (which is how flying was for decades before the ubiquity of radar contact became the norm) then you need to get the attention of anyone listening on the freq by saying Mayday. That gets anyone/everyone listening on the frequ to pay attention to what follows.

If you are already in radar contact, you are already talking to a controller. In that case, it's a briefer transmission simply tell them you have an emergency.

And funnily enough, almost all of the VFR training sorties I flew had a radar following (not radar contact) service in the MoA. The flight students were taught to say Mayday (non radar contact) as a standard transmission when they got that far into the checklist (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate). (And if they didn't they'd get marked off for not saying it during the simulated emergency)
Which means that the most common emergency radio call would start with Mayday by reflex, I expect.

I can see the advantage of simply telling the controller you have an emergency if you are already talking to them; it's clearer communication and he's already got you painted on his scope.

I'll defer to Westy on the controller side of that.

Your appeal to pedantry is noted, but we agree on this.
whoever flew that C-130 to a successful landing did an outstanding job!
yep.

Pugilistic Animus

5th Oct 2020, 21:15

Forget the AIM for a second... it has been proven time and again that "I'm declaring an emergency" works for US airspace.... seems to work even better than MAYDAY...also the AIM is advisory

finestkind

5th Oct 2020, 21:39

A story from 42 years ago, of a zero SA player, followed by guys doing what they were taught?

In this instance the crew landed a heavily damaged (stricken?) aircraft, from a midair collision, in a field, and had clear, and understood communication with their ATC unit.

If there was a miscommunication or confusion I could understand the dilemma...I was of the understanding that MAYDAY was to get ATC attention, yes Carl this is an emergency and should not have to be asked, minimise RT between ATC and pilot and clear everyone else off the air. But it appears you are saying a successful comms lacking in misunderstanding constitutes saying whatever you want irrelevant of supporting documentation and if this holds true for an emergency I could not see why it would not hold true in all cases. Meaning we could get rid of all those pages in the relevant doc’s and save a few trees and brain cells?

finestkind

5th Oct 2020, 21:42

flighthappens,

The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.

.

I do not understand what you are saying? If you have a grip with Aussie's so be it but I suggest you play the ball and not the country.

flighthappens

5th Oct 2020, 21:56

I was of the understanding that MAYDAY was to get ATC attention, yes Carl this is an emergency and should not have to be asked, minimise RT between ATC and pilot and clear everyone else off the air. But it appears you are saying a successful comms lacking in misunderstanding constitutes saying whatever you want irrelevant of supporting documentation and if this holds true for an emergency I could not see why it would not hold true in all cases. Meaning we could get rid of all those pages in the relevant doc’s and save a few trees and brain cells?

Finest Kind, have you been drinking? I’m actually not 100% sure of what you are trying to say. I think you are saying that there should be agreed upon SOP’s, heck we could even call them standards, to which I agree. I Also agree that if someone has priority you should take pains not to clutter up the radio. I’ve also been taught (And taught) that if I cant find the perfect standard phrase that clear comms is best.

Re the other stuff, I am saying a single case is a data point. It’s definitely not a trend line, particularly when it was 4 decades ago.

I’m also highlighting that in this particular case, there was a an exchange of clear, and expected phraseology between the aircraft and controller. It communicated the nature of the problem efficiently and without ambiguity. The fact that it is different to what the RAF would do, does not in and of itself make it inferior.

For the record if it was me, I would have said ‘Mayday’ in Australia or the UK, and ‘declaring an Emergency’ in the US. Because that is what the controller was expecting.

ApolloHeli

5th Oct 2020, 22:25

Forget the AIM for a second... it has been proven time and again that "I'm declaring an emergency" works for US airspace.... seems to work even better than MAYDAY...also the AIM is advisory

That is besides the point - MAYDAY might not work in US airspace if Americans keep pretending that they fly alone, which is another threat. If a professional follows correct procedure as taught widely around the world (including in the US - it was pointed out that the FAA correct R/T is Mayday/Pan-Pan), the colloquial attitude that the US ATC are used to using/hearing will hinder and delay the necessary response as they fail to understand what the word Mayday means.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=53vhyEXXtyg
Here's a clear example of that - Helicopter calls "Mayday Mayday Mayday" and the ATC response is "Do you require any assistance". Even after another aircraft relayed the callsign and nature of emergency (engine failure). Hearing the words 'Mayday Mayday Mayday' should prime everyone on frequency (especially the controller) to listen clearly to the transmitted information so that pointless repetition of messages isn't required because the controller was focusing on another task or distracted by something.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q
Here's another example of US ATC failing to understand a textbook and professional emergency transmission, following up with unnecessary questions such as "are you declaring and emergency", and to add to the list while we're at it, failing to understand the meaning of "standby".

galaxy flyer

5th Oct 2020, 23:00

True dat! On an Aviation forum that shall not be named, two American Part 121 pilots we’re going on about how “Niner” for the number 9 was some comic book pronunciation. When pointed to the specifics of the FAA AIM and how the ICAO phonetic voice was stated said, “I more skimmed over it than read it”. That’s two professionals. But, declaring an emergency is a hardy perennial PPRUNE argument, carry on.

finestkind

5th Oct 2020, 23:04

Finest Kind, have you been drinking? I’m actually not 100% sure of what you are trying to say. I think you are saying that there should be agreed upon SOP’s, heck we could even call them standards, to which I agree. I Also agree that if someone has priority you should take pains not to clutter up the radio. I’ve also been taught (And taught) that if I cant find the perfect standard phrase that clear comms is best.

Re the other stuff, I am saying a single case is a data point. It’s definitely not a trend line, particularly when it was 4 decades ago.

I’m also highlighting that in this particular case, there was a an exchange of clear, and expected phraseology between the aircraft and controller. It communicated the nature of the problem efficiently and without ambiguity. The fact that it is different to what the RAF would do, does not in and of itself make it inferior.

For the record if it was me, I would have said ‘Mayday’ in Australia or the UK, and ‘declaring an Emergency’ in the US. Because that is what the controller was expecting.

Thank you for your concern about my health. I hope you are well. In response to your "not 100% sure" it appears that you have got 99% of it. There are Doc's, SOPS, AIP's ABC etc, that even America have. It would be nice considering that it appears ICAO, which I think is international, is a way of standardising a lotta different thingies in different countries to an international standard was utilised even in a country that does its own thing but does agree on these standards for everyone else.

In respect to your training and using a non standard phase if you cannot find the correct one or there is not a correct one (interesting) I doubt if anyone would disagree. With MAYDAY my training, so long ago, still resonates, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if memory is in error, as MAYDAY X 3, who I am talking too, who I am, what the "f" is the problem, what I am going to do, where I am, and than how many sugars I want in my coffee. Now I apologise if I am in error with the call but given the time that it has been since being taught and instructing this and now, I am sure I will be forgiven. The point being there is a standard phase.

Your use of MAYDAY in UK or OZ is commendable but something different in the US because that is what they expect even if different from the FAA? is the twist to this thread. If you want something different to what is published than publish something different.

NutLoose

5th Oct 2020, 23:16

End of the day regardless of terminology used, the message got across, everyone walked away from it and he did a superb landing.

FAA use Mayday btw, see page 96 as an example, but main phraseology is page 231

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/AIP.pdf

..

Pugilistic Animus

5th Oct 2020, 23:49

That is besides the point - MAYDAY might not work in US airspace if Americans keep pretending that they fly alone, which is another threat. If a professional follows correct procedure as taught widely around the world (including in the US - it was pointed out that the FAA correct R/T is Mayday/Pan-Pan), the colloquial attitude that the US ATC are used to using/hearing will hinder and delay the necessary response as they fail to understand what the word Mayday means.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=53vhyEXXtyg
Here's a clear example of that - Helicopter calls "Mayday Mayday Mayday" and the ATC response is "Do you require any assistance". Even after another aircraft relayed the callsign and nature of emergency (engine failure). Hearing the words 'Mayday Mayday Mayday' should prime everyone on frequency (especially the controller) to listen clearly to the transmitted information so that pointless repetition of messages isn't required because the controller was focusing on another task or distracted by something.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q
Here's another example of US ATC failing to understand a textbook and professional emergency transmission, following up with unnecessary questions such as "are you declaring and emergency", and to add to the list while we're at it, failing to understand the meaning of "standby".

Don't shoot the messenger that's just how it is.
Anyway how many of you say "tree" and "fower"? That's also in the AIM

Checklist Charlie

6th Oct 2020, 00:16

I have no concerns with the use of military gibberish being used within that civil airspace released to military use/control. That said, I have real concerns when that same military gibberish is used in normal national or international civil airspace. It is professional and safer to use the applicable procedures and communication norms for the airspace in which you are operating.

It is noted also that some civil operators sound like they are chatting away on Childrens Band out in the Baja somewhere instead of employing standard ICAO procedures. As the world knows, if certain things are done a particular way in the US (or France), they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Just ask them.

CC

megan

6th Oct 2020, 00:29

I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA)Crab, when with the USN the standard MAYDAY/PAN applied, nothing else.

NutLoose's page 231 spells it all out, for the controllers their reference says,

FAA Air Traffic Control Policy effective 15 August 2019 10−1−1. EMERGENCY DETERMINATIONS
a. An emergency can be either a Distress or an Urgency condition as defined in the “Pilot/Controller Glossary.”
b. A pilot who encounters a Distress condition should declare an emergency by beginning the initial communication with the word “Mayday,” preferably repeated three times. For an Urgency condition, the word “Pan-Pan” should be used in the same manner.
c. If the words “Mayday” or “Pan-Pan” are not used and you are in doubt that a situation constitutes an emergency or potential emergency, handle it as though it were an emergency.
d. Because of the infinite variety of possible emergency situations, specific procedures cannot be prescribed. However, when you believe an emergency exists or is imminent, select and pursue a course of action which appears to be most appropriate under the circumstances and which most nearly conforms to the instructions in this manual.The bush lawyers can now argue about the meaning of the word "should", and the why para "c" might exist.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.65Y.pdf

ve3id

6th Oct 2020, 00:35

That was a brilliant rant

They are all wrong. The nav light was actually changed in the first line, so the answer is one.

nickp

6th Oct 2020, 10:06

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone have any idea how the Herc will be salvaged?

Green Flash

6th Oct 2020, 10:39

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone have any idea how the Herc will be salvaged?

Just asked my Bro this, as he has had some experience of recovering derailed trains. Miles of TrackWay to start with (will be needed anyway to truck away the contaminated soil), then cranes to sling lift the wings off after they have been de-fuelled.

Lonewolf_50

6th Oct 2020, 11:53

And advantage of using Mayday as a preface in one's R/T when declaring an emergency:
Even if you are already in contact with a controller, when you are communicating on a cluttered / very busy freq that has lots of radio traffic, you'll usually get most participants to STFU for a bit so that whomever called Mayday can get their message out.

ORAC

6th Oct 2020, 12:23

May I suggest all the posts concerning emergency RT procedures be moved to a separate thread to leave this one for the specific accident referenced?

Chugalug2

6th Oct 2020, 12:30

Lonewolf 50:-
And advantage of using Mayday as a preface in one's R/T when declaring an emergency:
Even if you are already in contact with a controller, when you are communicating on a cluttered / very busy freq that has lots of radio traffic, you'll usually get most participants to STFU for a bit so that whomever called Mayday can get their message out.

Indeed Lonewolf, and by being allocated a Mayday c/s every subsequent transmission by you or to you again repeats that message to those same participants! :ok:

The important point I would make is that by having two emergency alerts (MAYDAY, or "I am declaring an emergency") in the US could then lead to confusion outside US airspace where US military crews will be dealing with non-US ATC (even if supplying a radar service) who may not immediately respond to "I am declaring an emergency" as a MAYDAY alert, with vital time being lost before appropriate assistance is given.

Stick to the internationally agreed script no matter where you are and with whom you are dealing and precious time will thus not be lost.

EDLB

6th Oct 2020, 17:44

The ATC sounded more nervous than the pilots. The wind direction/speed was the most useful information. ATC should assume, that with two engines gone and working on an engine fire checklist, the crew has its hands/brain full and communicate comes third. So provide useful information and do the emergency stuff like informing the equipment on the nearest airports in the background.
My assumption is, that some single handed piloting would be a good help for ATC to get the other side perspective.

T28B

6th Oct 2020, 18:58

For those interested in the update for the Eglin crash of an F-35A, that post was moved to the F-35 general thread (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/630295-f-35-thread-mk-ii-12.html#post10899219)
EDIT TO ADD:
Of interest from that accident is a possible problem with FBW implementation that may or may not be related to this accident.
The second main cause was the tail flight control surfaces “conflicting” with the pilot’s apparently correct efforts to recover the jet after it bounced on the runway, a problem the Air Force said was a “previously undiscovered anomaly in the aircraft’s flight control logic.” The plane and pilot “quickly fell out of sync,” as the flight computer commanded nose down while the pilot commanded nose up, attempting to abort the landing and go around. Sensing that he was being “ignored” by the airplane, the pilot ejected, sustaining significant but non-life-threatening injuries.

RetiredBA/BY

6th Oct 2020, 19:10

Might I politely draw the attention of our colonial chums to Para 1c (1)(a) of Section A-2 of the DoD Flight Information Handbook?

.

Not your place to do so. This was an accident concerning two US built aircraft, operated by an arm of the US military operating in US airspace. They don't need your advice in how to conduct their affairs. The successful conclusion of what could have been a multiple fatality accident suggests to me they know what they are doing .

Non standard RT in this situation ? Give them a break , they achieved a perfect result.

[email protected]

6th Oct 2020, 19:14

Lonewolf50 So there you go, crab; now you actually know something that you didn't know before. yes, I know that Megan disagrees with what you claim the USN use.

you say In a radar environment (Radar Contact), or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO, standard procedure for a distressed or urgent situation is to declare an emergency.
An example of an emergency voice report in a radar environment or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO is as follows:
"[Call sign] is declaring an emergency. Chip light, 5 miles east of Brewton at 4,500 feet. Executing a Precautionary Emergency Landing at Brewton."

his post Crab, when with the USN the standard MAYDAY/PAN applied, nothing else.

then you sayAnd advantage of using Mayday as a preface in one's R/T when declaring an emergency:
Even if you are already in contact with a controller, when you are communicating on a cluttered / very busy freq that has lots of radio traffic, you'll usually get most participants to STFU for a bit so that whomever called Mayday can get their message out. so which is it? Use MAYDAY (as the rest of the world does) or have two different procedures depending on if you are VFR or under radar control?

higthepig

6th Oct 2020, 19:30

BEagle

6th Oct 2020, 23:43

RetiredBA/BY , the Department of Defense Flight Information Handbook section A-2 states the correct procedures for US Military aircrew. The fact that some choose not to follow DoD recommendations is a matter for US Stanevals to review.

Pugilistic Animus

7th Oct 2020, 00:59

Just say: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY we're declaring an emergency!
:}

mngmt mole

7th Oct 2020, 01:01

As a Brit, to my fellow Brits. Kindly stop with the grammar police inputs to this thread. The pilot of the 130 did an amazing job, and frankly whether he said "Mayday", "Pan" or "Emergency", he handled things amazingly well. We should all care more about the flying skills than the grammar skills. In this case the pilots of the Herc showed us all how to handle an obviously major emergency. Well done to the entire crew.

LowObservable

7th Oct 2020, 01:05

Not your place to do so. This was an accident concerning two US built aircraft, operated by an arm of the US military operating in US airspace. They don't need your advice in how to conduct their affairs. The successful conclusion of what could have been a multiple fatality accident suggests to me they know what they are doing .

Non standard RT in this situation ? Give them a break , they achieved a perfect result.

Errm... this wasn't "perfect". An aircraft with eight people on board and no inflight emergency egress was damaged to the point where return to an airfield was apparently impossible. Fortunately (by luck) there was some soft level ground in the area.

megan

7th Oct 2020, 01:32

If anyone can point to where the word "emergency" is a regulatory approved method of declaring your state, military or civil, I'll shout the bar, I do note though the procedures are merely "recommended". As Beags points out it's all spelled out in the Department of Defense Flight Information Handbook section A-2. US Military manual and even the UK gets specific mention. ;) Following correct as of March 2018.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x805/f_277f070663867fe9bc54a9727fea2e029d818029.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x819/f1_ff2fa54dbc2115bd2b96c99fe45b1f02832676f2.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x832/f2_374a28e0277128ae58c4da2808ba6a889d8d0a38.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x834/f3_f947b34a104b19ef6850388acd53ab74d238a988.png

https://www.columbus.af.mil/Portals/39/documents/New%20Students/FIH_1MAR18.pdf?ver=2019-01-14-165719-010

RatherBeFlying

7th Oct 2020, 02:50

Reminds me of theologians arguing over how many angels can dance on a pinhead:=

West Coast

7th Oct 2020, 03:30

I look forward to the exploding heads when the first Marine F-35 returns to the Queen Lizzie. “Yank 01 declaring an emergency, headed back to mother“.

8 pages minimum.

finestkind

7th Oct 2020, 03:35

Reminds me of theologians arguing over how many angels can dance on a pinhead:=

Can you give me the average angel shoe size and I'll work it out.

Appreciate that the post has gone off topic but this tends to happen with bones of contention particularly when someone feels threatened even when it is written in black and white i.e. “I don’t care what the rules are we do it our way”

ramble on

7th Oct 2020, 04:23

F@cking Tweetle Beetle infestation here....

Very well, then
Mr. Knox, sir.
Let's have a little talk
about tweetle beetles....

What do you know
about tweetle beetles?
well...

When tweetle beetles fight,
it's called
a tweetle beetle battle.

And when they
battle in a puddle,
it's a tweetle
beetle puddle battle.

AND when tweetle beetles
battle with paddles in a puddle,
they call it a tweetle
beetle puddle paddle battle.
AND...

When beetles battle beetles
in a puddle paddle battle
and the beetle battle puddle
is a puddle in a bottle...

...they call this
a tweetle beetle
bottle puddle
paddle battle muddle.
AND...
When beetles
fight these battles
in a bottle
with their paddles
and the bottle's
on a poodle
and the poodle's
eating noodles...

...they call this
a muddle puddle
tweetle poodle
beetle noodle
bottle paddle battle.
AND...

Now wait
a minute
Mr. Socks Fox!

When a fox is
in the bottle where
the tweetle beetls battle
with their paddles
in a puddle on a
noodle-eating poodle.
THIS is what they call...

...a tweetle beetle
noodle poodle bottles
paddled muddled duddled
fuddled wuddled
fox in socks, sir!

Fox in socks,
our game us done, sir.
Thank you for
a lot of fun, sir.

megan

7th Oct 2020, 04:25

“Yank 01 declaring an emergency, headed back to mother“And shortly after making that call the engine vibration he had was the initiation of the rotor disintegrating, the shrapnel of which took out all electrical power. Mother assumes he has a radio malfunction and will be shortly in the circuit, when he doesn't show up SAR is launched but nothing is found. Wreckage in 20,000 feet of water and unable to be located as search area is too vast. 8+ pages. :ok:

XL189

7th Oct 2020, 07:09

Who really gives a sh*t about what was said over the radio!
We should be celebrating the fact that nobody died after two aircraft collided.

clark y

7th Oct 2020, 07:12

RetiredBA/BY

7th Oct 2020, 08:49

Errm... this wasn't "perfect". An aircraft with eight people on board and no inflight emergency egress was damaged to the point where return to an airfield was apparently impossible. Fortunately (by luck) there was some soft level ground in the area.
After a mid air with serious damage and no loss of life its about as perfect as it gets. Think Victor-Buccaneer collision off Sunderland 40 years or so ago, 4 fatalities.

As some have pointed out who gives a damn about RT procedures, the crew brought off a succesful conclusion, no loss of life, to what coukd h ave been catastrophic.

....and its not for Beagle or anyone else, with a similarly self appointed authority or misplaced ego, to start preaching or lecturing to other airforces.

Priorities !

NutLoose

7th Oct 2020, 09:08

Thought you might find this interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7G1rvmwfIk

salad-dodger

7th Oct 2020, 10:37

Thought you might find this interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7G1rvmwfIk
oh yes please, let’s go even further off topic

[email protected]

7th Oct 2020, 11:12

2 or 3 other callsigns chipped in on frequency (I'm sure they were trying to be helpful) during the emergency which, unless you are giving a MAYDAY RELAY call, goes against the idea of keeping the frequency completely clear except for the controller and the aircraft in distress.

The controller has to ask if the aircraft has a further emergency (how many do you need!!?) because he didn't go to full mental arousal prompted by a MAYDAY call?

I will reiterate that the crew did a great job landing the aircraft safely - BUT, they were descending quickly, having to pick a field to crash land into, and still being asked questions by ATC which the simple use of a MAYDAY call would likely have pre-empted.

Anyone coming onto the frequency not having heard the initial declaration of emergency would not have known there was anything going wrong and could easily have blocked transmissions unintentionally - prefixing the aircraft CS with MAYDAY each time, prevents that happening.

Chugalug2

7th Oct 2020, 12:49

gotta luv tweedle beedle battles.
time to jump in my plane (its a jumbo) and fly away (that'll annoy a few)

Must be a lot of stressed out people with too much time on their hands out there if we are more worried about radio phraseology that figuring out why an F35 rammed a Herc. I just what to know what happened.

Well, we're unlikely to find out that here until initial results of the accident investigation are published. Meanwhile there has been an important issued raised (highlighted by this accident) of differing military emergency alerts within and without US airspace. This isn't about phraseology, it is about sticking to internationally agreed procedures in an emergency situation. They are there to help save lives and do not encourage regional variations. The USA is a huge country but the World is humongous! So stick to the script!

Oh, and just to repeat yet again, the Herc crew achieved a fantastic result to walk away from this. Even if they had been unable to talk to anyone and arrived in the strawberry/carrot/whatever patch unannounced they would still have achieved a fantastic result.

The issue of US military emergency alerts is generic, not specific. It should be a concern to all professional aviators. You know, the ones this site is supposed to be for?.

DingerX

7th Oct 2020, 13:43

Reminds me of theologians arguing over how many angels can dance on a pinhead:=
I'm tired of this slander. The problem concerns what it means to be in a place. If something's place is, as the Philosopher says, the innermost surface of the containing object ("Where is Bob? In the house), this works because the stuff in that place -- the matter -- can only belong to one thing. But angels are immaterial, and therefore, this definition can't hold. So, in arguing about angelic co-location, as well as things like motion through a void, these theologians arrived at notions of space independent of the Aristotelian model.

Certainly, words matter, and, in an emergent situation, the right words at the right time matter. But that terminology can't exist outside of the institutions that teach and promote their use. I'm sure there are plenty of studies that show that "Not invented here" isn't just arrogant ignorance, but a whole bureaucratic apparatus behind it designed to resist exoteric influence. It's a miracle that we've got the level of international R/T standardization that we have. Sure, in an ideal world, we'd all be using PAN PAN PAN and MAYDAY, LAHSO would be forbidden, and "Cleared to Land" would mean a clear runway too.

So, unlike those theologians, who were using ideal cases to get to real-world solutions to explace how you could be in a place (and how things could fly through the air), here, we've got people using a real-world case to point to how an ideal world should function. The only commonality is that at some point, Ockham comes into the pattern.

Green Flash

7th Oct 2020, 20:04

Dinger, I presume you also refer to Occam (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor#:~:text=Occam%27s%20razor%20(or%20Ockham%27s %20razor,the%20more%20unlikely%20an%20explanation.), but otherwise I agree wholeheartedly.

[email protected]

7th Oct 2020, 20:13

Watch out, he's got a razor!:)

finestkind

7th Oct 2020, 21:21

Who really gives a sh*t about what was said over the radio!
We should be celebrating the fact that nobody died after two aircraft collided.

Fair enough and if you don't give a flying "f" then don't comment.

There has been a number of BZ given on this thread so are you organising a celebration as well?

twochai

7th Oct 2020, 23:25

421dog

8th Oct 2020, 00:35

Been Sic in two aircraft which called mayday for legitimate, flight threatening reasons (Like a bald eagle through the windshield at 17k) and was PIC in one where I lost an engine At fl 210 and called Pan Pan for inability to maintain altitude over ORD on a crappy day when I couldn’t get a word in edgewise to Chicago Approach.
on all three occasions, the first words out of the controllers mouth were: “Are you declaring an emergency”...

So over here, the phraseology doesn’t seem to mean a lot without some mention of the “E” word...

TBM-Legend

8th Oct 2020, 01:37

I used to wonder why my Brit friends used to say they were "turning finals".
This never made sense to me as use of the plural implied that the first landing attempt might not work out.
Why the lack of confidence?

Some say "tom'arto others say tomay-to" - two countries separated by a common language...

josephfeatherweight

8th Oct 2020, 06:03

on all three occasions, the first words out of the controllers mouth were: “Are you declaring an emergency”
Coincides with my experience in the US also - whilst I haven't said the words myself, I have heard others get the same response to a "PAN PAN".
Also, whilst training in the simulator in the US (and Canada), 9/10 times I've declared a PAN PAN or a MAYDAY, the sim instructor (playing ATC) has asked, "Are you declaring an emergency?" :ugh:
So, recently I've always "played the game" and "Declared an emergency" in the sim - funnily enough, on my very last sim session when I did that, the sim instructor said "You really should declare a MAYDAY or PAN PAN"!!! :suspect:

salad-dodger

8th Oct 2020, 06:26

Some say "tom'arto others say tomay-to" - two countries separated by a common language...
only one of those is English

Herod

8th Oct 2020, 07:17

"Mayday" doesn't always work in Europe either. In my career I had cause to make a Mayday call on two occasions while descending into Paris. On both occasions the controller spoke to several other aircraft before "XXX, say again?" Then again, it was Paris :ugh:

Pugilistic Animus

8th Oct 2020, 08:45

Back to the actual accident, forgetting about the RT.
the Herc was damaged in such a way that I don't think what happened would be listed in the QRH or it's military equivalent. The crew really did a great job landing a completely disabled plane and everything seemingly went according to Hoyle

typerated

8th Oct 2020, 08:56

"Houston we have a problem!"

But this underplayed the situation - as mission control was thinking it was a data issue.

212man

8th Oct 2020, 09:06

nickp

8th Oct 2020, 09:14

And presumably he spoke to them in French ...

Pugilistic Animus

8th Oct 2020, 09:19

Oh yes the irony of Herod's post was not lost on me..
m'aidez

Captain Radar....

8th Oct 2020, 20:35

MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY
I'm a bit concerned that so many apparently professional military aircrew just don't give a damn about internationally accredited procedures (which I guess they must have understood to gain their qualifications). What other procedures are they ignoring because it's more convenient to do so or because that's what everyone does? If US ATC staff don't understand international procedures they aren't being trained in accordance with international standards. The procedures are there for very good reason, they should be ingrained in anyone with a TX switch.
I can only marvel at what it took to get that C130 back on the ground and many say WTF nobody died. Yeah but a Mayday call might have made it easier for everyone else (assuming everyone else understand what a Mayday call means, which it seems isn't a given).

Pugilistic Animus

8th Oct 2020, 21:32

Hey we did stop saying "taxi into position and hold" and got our hearts a little more right with ICAO by saying "line up and wait" so we can change.

NutLoose

8th Oct 2020, 22:17

Question,
Does an actual Mayday stop ATC bothering you while you are busy dealing with the problem?

It’s just I remember an unrelated incident where a crew dealing with a high workload on finals were interrupted by ATC with some trivia and in attempting to answer the AP was accidentally disconnected and the aircraft drifted off the centreline resulting in a crash.

What I am getting at is does a Mayday pass the onus to the crew to control the comms, ie ATC then become subservient to the crew and in effect a listening out service that reacts to the crews requests and does not interject if that makes sense..

NutLoose

8th Oct 2020, 23:58

I used to wonder why my Brit friends used to say they were "turning finals".
This never made sense to me as use of the plural implied that the first landing attempt might not work out.
Why the lack of confidence?

I suppose because you could have a left or right hand circuit, so there are two.

MarcK

9th Oct 2020, 00:40

so we can change.I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to......I guess.

megan

9th Oct 2020, 01:49

Pugilistic Animus

9th Oct 2020, 03:34

Thought you might find this interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7G1rvmwfIk

Tallyho and no joy... I've heard both a few times on frequency, from what I think were civilian planes

Easy Street

9th Oct 2020, 09:40

NutLoose - a MAYDAY doesn't quite guarantee radio silence as there will be other aircraft on frequency which the controller needs to keep apart until handed over to someone else. What it should do is stop other pilots initiating non-essential comms like requests for re-routing or weather updates. It also doesn't stop ATC talking to the distressed aircraft: the way to achieve that is for the pilot to transmit STANDBY (which is still only a temporary request).

I think MAYDAY and PAN-PAN serve a very useful purpose in an ATC environment in that they make it immediately obvious whether you are likely to comply with clearances. MAYDAY for those occasions when you do what you need to do and tell someone about it later; PAN-PAN when you can fly 'normally' if given priority. A MAYDAY should therefore get everyone else on frequency listening carefully to ensure their own safety and prepare for possible avoiding action. Achieving the same clarity with an IFE just takes more radio time.

NutLoose

9th Oct 2020, 17:37

Thanks all for explaining :)

MPN11

9th Oct 2020, 18:44

Apologies for perpetuating the MAYDAY discussion, but until we get more info on the F-35/KC-130 incident it’s the the only show in town!

I spent a total of some 7 years at Eastern Radar, controlling USAF traffic in UK ... and a couple more doing it from London Centre. Ignoring the regulatory aspects, as a Brit Mil controller you just learned to accept and understand their way of doing things differently. And even understand the implications of some of the emergencies ... I recall the F-100 had something that was sort of 5 minutes to ejection time, so get me home quick!! What REALLY matters, for an ATCO is handling the overall traffic situation for the exclusive benefit of the emergency aircraft.

Story. I was doing Centralised Approach Control for Alconbury/Wyton one day. I had 4 x F4 from 10 TRW on frequency as singletons heading for the Final Approach Fix (FL180+, IIRC), and due to the airspace I was busy. Four aircraft was the tech limit for our T82 store-dot tracking system, and I was being watched by the visiting CO of Midland Radar, who also used the T82 radar. He asked, “What happens when you run out of tracking store dots?” At that moment, I got a handover of another F-4 who had called MAYDAY. Simples ... identify and control #5 for a Diverse Recovery, tell #1 to #4 to proceed to the IAF and hold at their mercifully already assigned FLs. And eventually hand over #1 to ALC Rapcon and resume processing the other 4 in the stack. “Err, that’s what we do, Sir.” ... Terry Mac was not amused! BUT ... MAYDAY gets you in front of the queue!

galaxy flyer

9th Oct 2020, 21:54

Way back in the day, the USN’s Approach Safety magazine had a great story about an uncoordinated hurricane evac where every USN base in southeast decided beddown base would be NAS Memphis. Suddenly, a couple hundred planes are inbound. At one point, an F-8 declared “minimum fuel”; ATCO said, “you’re number 10 (or something large) in min fuel GCA pattern”. F-8 pilots responds with, were now flamed out, “you’re number 3 in flame-out pattern”. The whole story was hilarious if not so serious. About five or six ejections and lots of saves.

Ascend Charlie

10th Oct 2020, 07:55

Knucklehead, trying to be smart:
"Ace from space,
turning base,
wheels in place,
reserve a space!"

ATC, a lot smarter:
"Ace from space, go around, we have Superman on GCA finals with minimum fuel."

Downwind.Maddl-Land

10th Oct 2020, 13:08

As previously stated, I'm 110% behind standardized RT and procedures; they reduce confusion and promote safety which is essential when dealing with critical situations. However, picking up on some of the comments on here, yes, there is scope for initiative and creative action especially from ATCOs who need to be aware of the prevailing circumstances. My example went something like this:

2 x F111s climbing out of low-level near a North Yorkshire MEDA airfield:

"Ratch 21, check"

"2. It appears to have gone out! Still a lot of smoke though and bits falling off" ( 😯 )

"(EG**) Ratch 21 flight climbing out of low-level requesting FL (whatever) direct track to Lakenheath for a diverse recovery, GCA to land."

"Ratch 21 Flt, squawk (xyz) - do you have a problem?"

"Ratch 21 has lost an engine and has a double utility failure."

"Ratch 21 Flt, identified, radar advisory. EG** is 225, 21 miles, runway 34/16, 7500 ft with cables and barriers and used to handling your type."

"Ratch 21, Ratch 22 - seems like a good move. You're still smoking!"

"EG**, Ratch 21 flt, can you accept us?"

"Affirm - we are an Emergency Diversion Aerodrome, squawk 7700, turn right (etc etc)' (On the landline to D&D, who promptly delegated Op control to me)

He made an approach-end cable arresstment. The aircraft was a MESS! Most of the TF-30 had departed company from the rest of the airframe with substantial fire damage too. I seriously doubt he would have made it back to LKH. At no time was Mayday or Emergency mentioned but we were all - by then - all on the same page.

MarvinTPA

10th Oct 2020, 21:24

I've no experience of communications in aviation but plenty in noisy environments. I dare say that some of the issues that result in someone 'declaring an emergency' might also result in additional noise. Noise cancelling technology can only do so much. The reduced bandwidth that you're left with will transmit some vowel and consonant sounds better than others.

The repeated vowel sounds in PAN, PAN and MAYDAY will have a clarity that I'm sure couldn't be achieved by 'I am declaring an emergency', even if the latter was uttered by Wallace Greenslade or an alumnus of Seagoon's school for announcers.

All I used to deal with was:
"Standby, LX cue 15"
"LX standing by"
"LX cue 15...go"

Zero peril, even if pyro was involved.

I'm not sure why you would choose to complicate what is, in essence, just a sound to gain attention for a very specific reason. If I've missed the point (other than contributing to thread drift), I do apologise.

fdr

11th Oct 2020, 04:47

Just say: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY we're declaring an emergency!
:}

abstract, out of the box thinking.

long ago, far far away, around a bar.

FO coming up to command, around the table with a bunch of senior standards and training captains. Over a beer, bright FO relates a story about his deciding not to do SOP's following the beer-soaked topic.

Mangler standards holding his beer replies, "noted..., and what other standard procedures and rules do you deliberately disregard?"

SOP's and standard phraseology are not made to make your life more difficult, they are there to ensure that lessons hard-learned in the past do not get played out again needlessly. Standard phraseology may be the only thing going when you encounter a major language gap, like a Californian talking to JFK Approach, or anyone talking to SYD.

IT is a "head of the pin" issue at the same time, but confusion at high TAS tends to get more entertaining than it needs to be, and a multilingual environment doesn't make it much easier, like the Marines talking to the Airforce.

ORAC

11th Oct 2020, 07:53

Wings and engines removed, presumably fuselage to follow.

Marines have started to remove parts of KC-130J that crash landed in Thermal ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/10/11/marines-have-started-to-remove-parts-of-kc-130j-that-crash-landed-in-thermal/)

Marines have started to remove parts of KC-130J that crash landed in Thermal

The wings and engines of the KC-130J, BuNo. 16-6765, that crash landed on a field in Thermal on Sept. 29 have been removed last week.

According to NBC, the wings were removed on Oct. 9 and the engines were taken off a day earlier.

https://nbcpalmsprings.com/2020/10/09/update-on-military-plane-that-made-emergency-landing-in-thermal/

NutLoose

11th Oct 2020, 11:56

Ohh dear, have you listened to that, the Herc pilot had 8 passengers eject and land by parachute while the pilot and co pilot landed the aircraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9gYB2ZSDxI

ivor toolbox

11th Oct 2020, 19:49

Ohh dear, have you listened to that, the Herc pilot had 8 passengers eject and land by parachute while the pilot and co pilot landed the aircraft

Probably makes sense Nutty, from my time on Herc , the lapstraps and canvas seats provided for ' economy class' passengers down the back were unlikely to prevent injury.

Ttfn

ORAC

11th Oct 2020, 21:30

I think he’s mocking the possible confusion between “eject” and “”bail-out”.

Do thry regularly carry chutes for all supernumery crew and train them in the use thereof?

OmegaV6

11th Oct 2020, 21:57

Not a single report over the last 10 days or so has mentioned anyone parachuting out ... IMHO it would have been at the top of the press reports .... so I think this is total load of rubbish by media that actually knows nothing .. and the use of the term "eject" from a Herc just confirms it to me.

TheWestCoast

11th Oct 2020, 23:28

When this first happened there were reports of "eight parachutes" being seen. I haven't heard anything else reported about this since, though.

Chiefttp

12th Oct 2020, 07:44

As an Air Force pilot flying C-141’s, we carried parachutes for all crew members only during combat airdrop missions (low level flying) . Our loadmasters wore them or harnesses, anytime the doors were opened in flightI. I’m not familiar with the Marines, but if they have the same policies, this would have been a good time to bail out if parachutes were aboard and available to crew members.

galaxy flyer

12th Oct 2020, 20:41

Unless the autopilot can fly the plane with that much damage and two engines out on one side, I’d think going to the chutes would be a very bad idea. Yes, the enlisted crew could get out, but the pilots would be stuck in an out of control situation trying to chutes on and out the door to an uncertain safe escape from the airframe.

That said, many moons a go a friend on a C-123 with a wing fire took to the chute when he no longer could talk to the pilots on intercom. Survived the landing only to be bit by a dog.

NutLoose

12th Oct 2020, 20:52

If you listen to the news item, it says the rest of the crew bailed out and the Pilot and Co Pilot belly landed it into the field.

however, the shots on the ground, the ramp appears to be up and the rear para door on the port side is closed, so possibly they went out the stb side para door as you can’t see it, the front door I take is open due to the pilot egress.

VX275

13th Oct 2020, 07:26

The front door can be jettisoned for use as an emergency parachute exit (just don't jump up as you leave).

NutLoose

13th Oct 2020, 17:52

Considering they were in an emergency descent one would think the fwd exit was the last place you wanted to be stepping out of. Thanks for extending my knowledge of the Herc :)

sycamore

13th Oct 2020, 19:07

Like all `news`items ,it`s a bit like `Send 3 and 4 pence,we`re going to a dance`.....none of the Marine Corps statements mention that any of the Herk crew jumped at all.....

WIDN62

13th Oct 2020, 21:23

I don't think the crew door is designed to be jettisoned in flight. It is designed for use on the ground if the fuselage is distorted and it can't be opened normally. It is impossible to believe that if it were jettisoned in flight it would miss No 2 prop. This is why the Crew Door light on the classic C130 or the Crew Door Warning on the C130J is treated so seriously.

heights good

14th Oct 2020, 03:09

Screaming holy **** I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention.

Feel free to dissect what many of the pedants here believe is a systemic training issue of declaring emergency vs mayday/pan, however on that day, the phraseology that was most common to both the flight crew and the controller was “declaring an emergency”

the issue comes when callsigns subsequently join the frequency and just hear a callsign being mentioned i.e. RAIDER50 vs MAYDAY RAIDER50.

It is the normal procedure for ATC and crews to append their callsign with mayday so that EVERYONE knows what is happening and can then minimise transmissions.

Either way, the crew got ATCs attention and walked away to tell the tale, that's the main point.

Just This Once...

14th Oct 2020, 10:10

ancientaviator62

15th Oct 2020, 10:14

IIRC we had lots of crew door warning light problems when we first got the 'K'. Eventually the 'solution' was to remove the 'door closed' microswitch and just have the 'door locked' system in operation. The meant that in theory you could turn the handle to the locked position but still have the crew door open. This would still put out the master warning light !
As for carriage of parachutes they were worn by the loadmaster on certain airdrops (back type) and carried on the tanker (clip on WW2 fashion). I have no recollection of crew parachute carrying in any other role on the 'K'.

tdracer

15th Oct 2020, 18:01

Do we know with any certainty that part of the C130J crew bailed out rather than ride the aircraft down?

NutLoose

15th Oct 2020, 18:14

Nope, we only have your press reports saying they did and if they’re anything like ours then I would take it all with a pinch of salt.

ancientaviator62

16th Oct 2020, 07:51

Just curious how many crew members the USMC C130 tanker would carry on a tanking sortie. As for baling out if anyone did, then my door of choice in the circumstances would be the port para door. This is based on the pics of the damage over on the starboard side. You would not know if bits were still flying past on that side. I am assuming that if the ramp and door are useable in the air in their tanker C130 (not an option on the RAF C130 tanker !) the descent speed may have precluded its use. But they would have still had to be slow enough and high enough to get a para door open and the jumpers out safely. Just my thoughts of course.