L3 Harris, the final shafting

[Alex Whittingham]

This is circulating on social media

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/917x1600/img_0585_ab9d9da5e1c122f9657957e98b95e18d8ce37e41.jpg

[African_TrouserSnake]

Hahahaha

My my, who could’ve tought that the big integrated schools are a sham:rolleyes:

I however feel sorry for the MPL students, they will have to sit on a donut shaped pillow for the coming years, regardless of their choice.

[parkfell]

A ‘somewhat unfair‘ treatment of customers if they decide to STOP.
Given the significant amount involved a legal opinion is probably necessary.
As for ‘Customer Experience‘ not exactly satisfactory.

Since hours flown cannot be cancelled or annulled by L3, are they transferable to the modular route with CAA approval.

At least they count towards the hour building if nothing else?

A prospective customer will no doubt study any contract with great care.....

[The Foss]

£173,000... gutted for those caught up in this. I hope anyone thinking of using L3 in the future is shown this document...

[flyingkeyboard]

Wow. Assuming that flight training will pick up again some day in the (possibly distant) future, does L3 simply think that people will forget?

[African_TrouserSnake]

parkfell

They can credit their SEP hours towards a PPL. Provided L3 releases the student’s training records another ATO could integrate them somewhere in their PPL syllabus.
Furthermore, if completed, the ATPL theory should exempt them from PPL theory.

Thats about all (that I know about) which you can transfer from an MPL towards a Mod fATPL

[Banana Joe]

I don't see L3 releasing students' training records to other ATOs, unless there is a rule or law (and I would hope so) that obliges them to comply with the student's request.

Criminals.

[African_TrouserSnake]

Banana Joe

I can only speak for my own CAA (EASA but not the UK) and I don’t know about L3’s internal rules, but they should at least release their records to their students.
The student could forward it to his/her/its next ATO.

The ATO signing the PPL course completion certificate certifies towards the CAA that the student has followed training according to part FCL, normally via a training curriculum approved by the CAA.

Hence, they’ll need to be able to justify any exemptions to their approved training curriculum (by means of L3’s training records) in order to comply with the completion certificate.

anyhow long story short; they normally require a signed training report for each training flight including its contents i.e. steep turns and slow flight + fi’s review

[polax52]

I knew this was a scam between the LCC's and the flight schools but I didn't realise that it was this bad. Just Shocking.

[African_TrouserSnake]

Negan

MPL is a bad idea in general. Aside of the underdeveloped airmanship discussion, and the 1500h misconception, realistically speaking the student’s faith is too dependant of the attached carrier and its whims which is a horrible concept.

[B2N2]

That is $220,000 USD which is enough for 2.5 students to complete FAA 0- CPL ME IR + EASA conversion which would run you about $85k-$90k including accommodation and living expenses for the 6 months you’d spend in the US.
Same for Canada btw.

[Chris the Robot]

If this gets out and given the number of wealthy parents with their offspring on these courses it presumably will, I don't see how anyone could consider enrolling on an MPL programme that isn't fully funded by an airline up-front. Given the delays and other problems associated with the training school in question and now this, surely any prospective students won't be handing over their money. The sort of people who can afford the training (or their parents in many cases) are presumably intelligent people who, after seeing in the media rows of empty aeroplanes parked up, will conduct due dilligence far beyond sick presentations, shiny brochures and lots of pens. Many of these people are likely lawyers, doctors and auditors who spend their entire working lives dealing with the small details. Do these traits not follow them home from the office?

I heard that BA in the early 90's had a lot of cadets they couldn't offer immediate RHS jobs to due to the recession and Gulf War, those cadets were offered other roles in the company until a flying position was available. I don't even work in the aviation industry, yet it seems the changes over the past 25 years or so have been dire for European flight crews.

Surely, the MPL has to be finished after Flybe and now Covid-19, even a programme fully funded by an airline is a bit of a punt for a candidate that is currently in a good career elsewhere, particularly one with a difficult re-entry process.

[SPDBRD1]

It's an horrendous situation for them all, and as a fellow L3Harris cadet on the standard ATPL scheme who has trained with many of them, I know that if i was in their shoes, it would financially ruin me.

My understanding is the those being quoted the above figure of £173k are those who have completed A320 type rating, while those who have yet to start the A320 phase are being quoted a total cost of £131k. I don't understand how they have came up with these figures when i believe the total hours requirement for them is 110hours in addition to what they have already done. They have been given no break down of these costs what so ever, just told a figure. Totally unacceptable.

My heart really does go out to them all. Not heard about the BA MPL's, but would imagine they are in the same boat. Anyone know what CAE is doing about their MPL's?

[Meester proach]

B2N2

difference being , you get straight on an A320 or 737 over here . Not living in a mall and flying a dash

[VariablePitchP]

+ EASA Conversion

That puts you in the same boat as anyone in the EU licence wise, no need to spend five years towing ‘happy 40th Betty’ banners, can jump into a jet like the rest.

[uncle dickie]

What L3 fail to realise is the damage such contracts have going forward when they attempt to attract future business from individuals. Other ATOs will invariably suffer unless they can demonstrate that they are different from such an uncaring Provider.
They need to review their contracts to ensure that to the ordinary man in the street that they are ‘fair & equitable’. Those who care about training will demonstrate positive TLC.
Yes they are a business and yes they need to make a profit, but when you screw the customers in the short term, you the business will undoubtedly suffer in the longer term.

Caring ATOs can actually make some smart moves at L3 expensive mistakes.

‘Customer Experience’ ? ~ some ‘Experience’

Something about a Barge Pole springs to mind....

[guy_incognito]

When there's a need for cadets again in a few years time, people will have forgotten all about this, and they'll be queuing up to fork over their money to L3.

I'd expect there to be a significant uptake of this offer, and that will prove to L3 that people are prepared to pay £175k for flying training. That will be the new going rate.

For reference, 15 years ago, the cost of the entire CTC Wings programme was approximately £65k.

[parkfell]

For reference, in 1972, Oxford were charging £5,000 for the CPL/IR (fATPL)
1990’s BAeFC at PIK charged BA & Cathay £60k per cadet.
fATPL with MCC/JOC.

Market forces as ever will determine the cost of courses not this £175k offer caused by a market implosion and MPL licence.

[guy_incognito]

In 1972, the average house in the UK cost around £5k. Today, it's around £237k. You could say that L3 are still under-charging!

[ASRAAMTOO]

Banana Joe

At the very least a formal subject access request under the GDPR regulations should produce the training records.

[nickp]

I think £7k was the average house price in 1972 - just googled it.

[PFD]

flyingkeyboard

The Internet doesn’t forget.

[Oddball77]

So for which airline were these MPL students supposed to work for after training?

[Oddball77]

Meester proach

Use the spare change and do a P2F on a A320.

[380SUPER]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but isn’t the MPL no longer legally binding to an airline, meaning the licence is no longer restricted to the operator?

I have seen jobs out there saying they accept MPL licence incidentally German operators (AeroLogic and CargoLux).

[Alex Whittingham]

I'm assuming.... these (https://www.l3commercialaviation.com/airline-solutions/airline-training/easa-airline-training/multi-crew-pilot-licence/)
possibly less Easyjet as I think they dumped L3

[Stan Evil]

I recall that when the big schools first offered MPL there was a real worry that no one would sign up and so they issued a guarantee that, should the associated airline go under, the school would pick up the tab to get the student an fATPL. Those days would appear to have gone, sadly.

[Orso21]

If you want to start immediately go for modular. you will save money and in the meantime, you can work or do a degree. If you want to do the integrated course I will wait at least one year if no more. Unfortunately, the global situation is changing continuously and no one knows when the aviation industry will recover.

[flybyschool]

They are obliged to release the training records if instructed by a student!
If they don't do it, the student can request assistance from the CAA

[sixgee]

I understand how awful it must feel for those of you caught up in this mess. Can I have the answers to a few questions just so I understand what’s going on.

Say the MPL consists of 80 hours aeroplanes and 80 hours airline simulators.

Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?

Presumably no airliner simulator time is counted against a CPL/IR with frozen ATPL.

What exactly are L3 not refunding and what exactly are they proposing charges for?


Best of luck all in these uncertain times.

[Flys4Funs]

This is utterly shameful. These cadets have been hung out to dry by both their training school and their prospective future employers. At a time when Airlines are taking government loans (that are being written off) in order to keep them afloat, this is how they choose to treat those who have made a commitment to work with them. As noted above other options have been taken in the past. This is no way to treat customers or staff, and nobody should forget that. Cadets have not had a voice for a long time and hence the rising cost of entering the industry, but this treatment is beyond the pail.

I think these cadets should take legal advice. It is against the law for any company to abuse a dominant position in the market, it is also an anti-trust issue to tie sales of products when in that dominant market position.

These are difficult times for everybody, but for a corporate to dump the entire risk and impact of this situation on a vulnerable (and easily bullied) customer base is nothing short of shameful!

[flybyschool]

"Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?"

I might be wrong but as far as I understand it from my team, there is no "conversion" between MPL and ATPL... so there is no credit for those flight hours
Would love to hear I am wrong and explaining how the credit can be done

[tsvpilot]

Based on the above, you must know more about the situation than is given in this topic. So, in your opinion, how was L3 supposed to handle this?

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Given the state of the whole industry, I doubt L3 will be around for very long. They have had their time.

[ZFT]

Training or manufacturing?

[parkfell]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

"Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?"

I might be wrong but as far as I understand it from my team, there is no "conversion" between MPL and ATPL... so there is no credit for those flight hours
Would love to hear I am wrong and explaining how the credit can be done

It may well depend how the flying syllabus is written.
If it is the case that up what would be required for PPL issue, the syllabus is common for both MPL & fATPL students, and the progress test taken at that point is by a FI authorised to conduct PPL tests, then it may be possible for a PPL to be issued. If not, then a test now by an approved person is required for PPL issue.

After this point there is probably a divergence in syllabus with more SE followed by some ME flying, both resulting in a shortfall compared to the CPL/IR syllabus. Simulator time ME would also have a shortfall in hours.

Phase 2 & 3 now occurs, with 30 multicrew simulator exercises in say an A320 or B737, totalling 120 hours training.
Phase 4 is the Type Rating Course (standard issue)& base training. The TRI & TRE must also be both MPL approved instructors.
The type rating paperwork now fully completed triggers MPL issue.

The Regulator would hopefully take a pragmatic view and recognise that at least the PPL can be issued.
Furthermore, hopefully recognise that if appropriate training and testing in SE and ME to cover the shortfall is completed then CPL/IR is possible.

A modular route would require the necessary hour building to “top up” MPL course flying to a point before the CPL & IR modular courses.

All this must be carefully executed fully complying with what the REGULATOR written instructions specify.

My I end by saying this is a dreadful situation to find yourself in, through no fault of your own.
Any future scheme must have the airline fully sponsoring the cadet as is/was the case of Aer Lingus.
The only decent show in town.

[Contact Approach]

Any future scheme must have the airline fully sponsoring the cadet as is/was the case of Aer Lingus.
The only decent show in town.

I sincerely hope this happens. This industry needs to take a few steps backwards and focus on quality not quantity.

[ZFT]

Whilst I don't disagree with you, we are our own worst enemies. This and other forums are full of "where can I get the CHEAPEST" TR or IR etc, not where can I get the best quality!!

[Jetstream alpha]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know whats happened with the current Aer Lingus cadets at FTE?

[Contact Approach]

ZFT

I was eluding to people not training.

[ManUtd1999]

Disgusting behaviour by L3, although I can't say as I am particularly surprised. As an organisation they have been at the forefront of increasing costs and barriers to entry into aviation for 10+ years, this is just the latest low point.

To put it into context, these cadets need circa 100 hours flight training to 'upgrade' to a CPL. Pre-covid rates at local flying schools would be 150-200 GBP per hour, slightly more maybe for the multi-engine phases. L3 has decided to charge 600+ GBP her hour, a 300% markup.......

I would like to think this may finally cause enough of a reaction to shame L3 into doing something. Certainly if the pressure can continue to build on social media to drown out their usual "living the dream" nonsense then something might have to give.

However, I have long since argued that all integrated flight training should be fully-funded by airlines. This is the only way to ensure selection is based on merit. However, in the long-term do we really think this is going to change? Cadets being shafted suits the airlines, it suits the flight schools and it suits a select group of wealthy individuals who can afford to pay. There are simply not enough people prepared to break out of the "I'm alright Jack" mentality.

[rudestuff]

Surely it's time to change the way the MPL works. Why does it need to be tied to a specific airline just because it uses their SOPs? In the real world someone can leave one airline for another and learn new SOPs. The regulator should test people and either trust them to fly... Or not.


These guys have paid for an MPL, so why can't they finish it?

[Smoggy88]

So for which airline were these MPL students supposed to work for after training?
I believe these were EasyJet MPLs but I have heard the BA MPLs are in the same situation. BA have withdrawn offer of employment leaving them at the mercy of L3. The current L3 cadets many of whom have already paid for most of their course are hoping L3 survive long enough for them to complete their training. It would be a disaster for them if L3 went under with their £100,000+.

[parkfell]

.....These guys have paid for an MPL, so why can't they finish it?

I don’t think there is any Regulatory reason why simulator type rating cannot be completed.
The base training for MPL is twelve take-offs & landings which is usually conducted over two days (6/6).
[Why 12 and not the usual 6 still remains a complete mystery to me]

Normally they would become an employee just before the base training commenced. Insurance purposes etc.

When FLYBE had their previous hiccup probably 8 years ago(?), eventually with BALPA involved, as “non permanent employees” their cadets were issued with the MPL.
It simply requires the present cadet airline(s) to carry out the training for licence issue.

[chrisbl]

Smoggy88

or even worse with their additional £63,000.

It would be a real bummer if despite paying the £63,000 L3 went under, all reminiscent of CABAIR.

Do we learn nothing?

[kpd]

Yes Cabair- students who paid a top-up lost that as well as their training fees- worth googling to remind people what can happen- the internet may not forget but people certainly can

[selfin]

A few more to jog the internet's memory.

CAPT, Flagler FL
Pilot Training College, Ireland and FL
Jet University, Fort Lauderdale FL
Tab Express, DeLand FL
Silver State Helicopters, Las Vegas NV
Mazzei Flying Service, Fresno CA
American School of Aviation, Atwater CA
Euro American School of Aviation (Ormond Beach Aviation), Ormond Beach FL
National Pilot Academy, Cedar City UT
Airline Training International, Toronto ON
Aldergrove Flight Training Centre, Northern Ireland
Top Fly, Sabadell and Huesca Spain
Stinson Air Center, San Antonio TX
Airline Training Academy, Orlando FL

[spitfirejock]

Between this thread started by Alex W and several of my previous threads, I hope the integrated v modular debate is finally over - we shall see! Maybe the STICKY needs to go and we can start fresh?

Word of caution however, is this Forum influential enough today?... maybe? ,any opinions from those who have posted thousands of times over many years?

Oh and don't forget, many people have very short memories.

[A320cp]

parkfell

Base training for MPL at my carrier was 6 T/O and LDGs, not 12.

[moosepileit]

Is this possibly a scheme to inflate the value of a soon to be forced-failure's balance sheet for a nice write-off?

[flybyschool]

Thank You parkfell

We will start discussions with our authority

Regards

[parkfell]

Base training for MPL at my carrier was 6 T/O and LDGs, not 12.

Interesting, as BA Cityflyers (as were FLYBE) were required to complete twelve for MPL base training.

There were discussions/proposals to reduce to six ~ perhaps that came through?

[BillieBob]

"Are all of the 80 hours aeroplanes credited against a CPL/IR with a frozen ATPL? Or only a proportion of those hours counted?"

I might be wrong but as far as I understand it from my team, there is no "conversion" between MPL and ATPL... so there is no credit for those flight hours
Would love to hear I am wrong and explaining how the credit can be doneThe answer is at FCL.325.A
Before exercising the privileges of a CPL(A), the holder of an MPL shall have completed in aeroplanes:

(a) 70 hours of flight time:

(1) as PIC; or

(2) made up of at least 10 hours as PIC and the additional flight time as PIC under supervision (PICUS).

Of these 70 hours, 20 shall be of VFR cross-country flight time as PIC, or cross-country flight time made up of at least 10 hours as PIC and 10 hours as PICUS. This shall include a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be flown as PIC;
Note that these requirements apply to the holder of a MPL, there is no mechanism for crediting hours received on an incomplete MPL course towards the requirements of a CPL. Note also that PICUS, within the meaning of FCL.010, may be gained only when acting as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aeroplane; time gained as SPIC or (peculiarly in the UK) P1/us may not be counted.

[tsvpilot]

Just out of mere interest, can someone actually now explain how was L3 supposed to handle this accordingly?

[Redmo]

Jetstream alpha

Basically the program is suspended indefinitely, they were given the option to continue training as self sponsored in a standard ATPL program with Aer Lingus contributing about 40% of the cost and a slight discount on the course from FTE. If they don't take this option they have been told they will be trained when the cadet scheme returns. The ones who do convert to ATPL have been given some sort of promise that they will be recruited ahead of others when recruitment eventually restarts

[ManUtd1999]

^ that is how a proper organisation treats people, despite the difficult circumstances.

It also raises the point that EZY and BA (if it is also their MPL cadets who are affected?) are not blameless here either. As an airline they have significant leverage to pressurize L3 to offer a discounted ATPL conversion. Maybe they did, but judging by the results they didn't try very hard.....

[Banana Joe]

Good game, Aer Lingus.

[Alex Whittingham]

Only 70 flight hours on an MPL, the rest in simulators. One MCC/APS operator was offering a state-of-the-art fixed base NG sim at £80 an hour dry recently. The margins in an MPL are huge, that's why the big ATOs like them. L3 should have recognised what FTE clearly did, that reputation has a value. Mind you, FTE would have acted decently even if no-one was watching. As it is, who would go to L3 for anything now? The moral for megacorps is choose the managers of your subsidiaries carefully.

[Smoggy88]

ManUtd1999

It is EZY and BA MPLs. BA have also withdrawn the offer of employment for their ATPL cadets who are still some way off completing the course. Originally BA had stated they would be kept in a hold pool for up to 4 years until jobs became available this offer has been withdrawn. Apparently when and if BA start recruiting these cadets will have to go through BA selection process all over again. They will receive no preferential treatment despite having being selected by BA to commence training.

[parkfell]

One of the many advantages FTE have over L3, is that the CEO / Owner is on site, and is able to make rapid decisions as was the case in March with the unfortunate AerLingus cadets.

[SID PLATE]

Smoggy88

There's a precedent here ... The late seventies BA courses at Hamble (781 onwards) weren't offered employment or a hold pool place on their course completion.
They had to complete the initial selection procedure again when BA next recruited, around 1987.

[Field Required]

Have L3 been given the middle finger yet?

[parkfell]

........They had to complete the initial selection procedure again when BA next recruited, around 1987.
Except those Hamsters who had joined BCal post Hamble and were subsequently “absorbed” into BA when that time came.

[SID PLATE]

That's another story ...

The BA DEP's who were disadvantaged when the BCal pilots were absorbed into the seniority list took BA to court.

The case was initially won. BA appealed, and it eventually went to the High Court. The Master of the Rolls, (who used to shoot grouse, and other unfortunate game birds, with Lord King, BA Chairman) overturned the decision.

Some of the BCal pilots had tried to join BA previously, but failed the selection. They were now absorbed, and senior to those who had passed.

Time to command, for the original BA FO's was significantly affected.

[glush]

Nobody forced these students to sign away their finances to an MPL scheme. The contract they all signed gave no guarantee of a job at the end of the training. Nobody could have foreseen the global pandemic and it’s consequences on aviation - but surely when you’re spending that kind of money you’d want to establish what your ‘licence’ is worth if the job wasn’t there?? Or perhaps ask if it’s transferable elsewhere at least??

Anyone who signed the contract and assumed they would get a job didn’t do the due diligence they should have and are unfortunately now hamstrung by the choice they made to go down the MPL route.

L3 are offering to convert the training to an CPL/IR, nobody is being forced to go down that route. The students are entitled to request their records and go to another school.

Its a simple as that.

[parkfell]

I think your comments are unsympathetic and are probably regarded as misleading, and fails to explain the actual relationship between the airline and the student in the ordinary course of events.
Unfortunately Force Majeure clauses were exercised by airlines given
the C-19 pandemic.

Those students who undertake the MPL route effectively ‘sign up’ with an airline, with conditional employment provisionally offered, provided the students progress were satisfactory or better, they will be taken on by the airline as a MPL holder in the RHS. They are selected by the airline, as suitable and not a training risk. No real difference to tagged/sponsored fATPL course students.

C-19 caused the implosion, and no amount of due diligence would have foreseen the events which unfolded.

It is a matter for each student to decide how to proceed.

[Bealzebub]

I agree with both of the above posters. The expectation was reasonable in the circumstances that prevailed. I doubt there was any intention not to absorb the prospective cadets. As always that is dependent on the airline having an actual need at the point of graduation. There is always a significant element of risk, and in that respect these events have seen the sky fall in!

without doubt these events will also be life changing for a great many people and existential for a great many companies.

[BDAttitude]

Really would be interested how those contracts exactly look like. Whithout having them seen:
The airlines are cutting their risks and losses by calling for force majeure. And I think it is undue discrimination of the students to impose the cost of airlines risk confinement on them.
Hopefully this is also what a court would rule. However until such a ruling is obataind - one of the companies might have gone tits up, making it a mute point.
The school might be liable as facilitator of the contract. At least from ethical point of view they should not profit from the situation and could do better in facilitating a CPL fATPL.

[parkfell]

The MPL students I have trained in the B737 simulator since 2010 (prior to this C-19 virus) were taken on by their airlines. I don’t think any were chopped? There was a hiccup some eight (?) years ago when FLYBE were in difficulty, but eventually they were issued with the MPL. Somewhat more complex than described.

I do agree that potentially the MPL student is entirely dependent upon the airline continuing with their obligations, whereas the CPL/IR (fATPL) is not airline dependent for potential licence issue, unless financially sponsored perhaps.

The actual MPL product is specifically trained for the RHS and given 120 hours multi crew training prior to type rating, compared to the MCC course students are clearly better prepared. That is not to say that some very competent MCC/JOC/APS students also succeed without issues.

[Alex Whittingham]

Oddy I was telephoned today by the man responsible for setting up the Easyjet MPL at what was then CTC, he had just been told about this situation. He confirmed that in the early days there was an absolute and open guarantee from CTC that, if anything went wrong with the MPL for any reason, including the airline pulling out, then the students could transfer to an ATPL course at no cost to themselves. The assumption must be that this warranty has been deliberately removed at some stage, unnoticed by the wider aviation community.

[parkfell]

I stand to be corrected, but I believe FTE allowed MPL students in March to transfer across to the CPL/IR (fATPL) route at no additional cost compared to the original MPL course fee....?

[Redmo]

Yep they did this when FlyBe folded

[Farrell]

I have a question:

When they signed up for a 100k MPL training package, was the 'zero refund policy' in the terms and conditions of the original deal?

If it was, and they signed it, then I've no sympathy.

They let dreams get in the way of proper risk assessment and risk mitigation.

PPrune has been here for decades, as are all the horror stories in the Wannabe forums.

It's sad to see students and parents lumbered with the hardship that goes with a bad business decision.
You can be sure that there are lawyers involved when buying apartments for similar money, yet here they just signed off on a deal that any responsible adult would have walked away from.

[Captain-Random]

Ive met L3 cadets who didn’t find out about pprune until they started training.

I mean when you’re sold a pretty much guaranteed job at the end and your folks can afford the £100k who really needs to know about T&C’s, the industries cyclic tendency’s etc etc. (Obviously that’s not the same for all L3 cadets)

[PFD]

When they signed up for a 100k MPL training package, was the 'zero refund policy' in the terms and conditions of the original deal?
If it was, and they signed it, then I've no sympathy.

Nice. I see you have adopted the L3 Harris attitude to customers, akin to the way Gregory House treats his associates. Compassion at it's finest.

Under EU contract law alone, if you fail to provide a service paid for, then surely you are obliged to return the unused fees? L3 Harris returned $525,000,000 to their shareholders after the merger in 2019 (it's in their annual report easily found on t'internet). Their profits have steadily risen since.

For a Multi-Billion Dollar company to treat any customer like this, regardless of Covid is downright immoral. But I guess when you have more money than God, you can do what you like.

If they hadn't delayed so many students by anything up to 18 months, many of them (students) would have been in a job already when Covid hit.

From personal experience as an employee, I came to realise that far from running a successful ATO, they couldn't run a tap.

I don't blame L3 Harrris as a whole, but who ever is in charge of training, I hope you sleep okay.

[Christopher Robin]

Hi

(If it was, and they signed it, then I've no sympathy.)

What a shame to see comments like that hindsight is always 20/20 but how many posts before FlyBe and Covid were saying how bad the MPL route was ?

[wiggy]

Farrell may not in some people's opinion be displaying much compassion but he/she is making a perfectly valid point: there have been plenty of warnings both on this forum and elsewhere for quite some time that betting the farm or a family home in order to pay a small (?) fortune for any full time ATPL or similar training package was taking a gamble.

Trust me it then got ***** frustrating to be told that GW1, 9/11, SARS type down turns could never happen again.....I certainly got that response several times over the years not just here but in person to person conversations with wannabies I met doing the day job over the last 5-10 years so it does appear the ATO's sales pitch and the kool-aid could be very persuasive.

Sadly I do suspect very strongly that the current collapse hasn't just caught out those currently going through training, I think many of those who escaped the reported delays at the likes of L3 and started at airlines in the last year or two will very much get caught up in this, if they haven't already.

[Elthry Harris]

glush you don’t know what you’re talking about. Research properly what these cadets signed up to and you’ll see it was pretty obvious that an offer was ‘only’ dependent on their ability to pass training, no caveats alluding to anything business related.

I wish them all the best.

[planesandthings]

Doesn't really matter if there weren't any caveats. A layman's view but this was a conditional contract, trainees weren't actually employees (BALPA words), all contracts like this generally have Force Majure clauses and if they don't, the doctrine of contractual frustration could still be brought up as a defence against any claim by the trainee pilot given COVID19. I imagine one or the other has ensured L3 and EasyJet remain completely free of any obligation. It comes as no surprise that despite a lot of uproar, there is still no progression of any legal kind against this situation and I doubt there ever will be sadly.

I wish them the best too, many future pilots will re-consider if what they are signing is really worth anything in future, but that's what it appears like.

[God_of_Fire]

I'm not sure when this crisis has passed that anyone will be able to raise a loan to fund one of these training courses. Surely all those caught short by what's just happened must be considering a personal bankruptcy against their debt?

[RedDragonFlyer]

Terribly sad situation for all involved.

Hopefully though, it will encourage people in the future, when the economy improves, to ensure that they don't risk silly sums of money like these by paying massive sums up-front.


Don't most people who take out loans secure them against their (or, more likely, their parents) houses? If that's the case, bankruptcy certainly wouldn't help.
I actually know one guy who's desperately scrambling to find a job, any job, to repay his parents' mortgage. I can't imagine he's alone in doing that with basically no prospect of finding an aviation job in the next few years.

[Field Required]

Did any of these people not just take a moment to actually consider these consequences?

[PFD]

I expect they just thought that a company that has just paid its shareholders half a million dollars, wouldn’t shaft them financially.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. What they really don’t need is condescension at this moment in time.

[Field Required]

Since beyond 2005 people on here have been pleading with people to take a moment to think about what they are getting into with integrated schemes. It's not exactly new science. It should never have been permitted in the first place.
You can't use a shareholder payout as the basis for risk when securing a 100k+ "personal" loan for something that's realistically worth 50% with no guaranteed return on investment. I mean from a financial risk point of view the alarm bells should have been going off well before even seeing a contract. But a dreams a dream, huh?

[parkfell]

Access to EZY for many was only through the MPL route and of course only the larger ATOs conduct these courses. So it is of no surprise that it seemed at route to follow.
After all, apart from the MPL hiccup FLYBE had some eight years ago, the UK CAA issued MPLs have successfully delivered what it said on the tin.
True, the CPL/IR route if interrupted is easier to complete, but how foreseeable was C-19.....?

[Field Required]

The MPL route is arguably a more controversial investment as you increase your risk as you narrow your options. All it took was for a relatively benign virus and boom, you're in 179K debt with nothing but a worthless piece of paper to show for it. The MPL route was incredibly risky and open to only those who could afford to lose 120k in all reality. The gamble paid off for some and now it's broken many. This practise should never have been allowed to go on in the first place and all those involved in the making of such a scheme should be the ones paying the price. Unfortunately for the Cadets, they are the ones who now suffer. The MPL should have only existed as a means for airlines to preselect and fully sponsor their future employees in a cost effective and forward thinking way.

[parkfell]

The majority of Integrated students want the “narrow option”
viz RHS multi crew, especially for those with an OML restriction.
A more focused approach for an airline apprenticeship.

Unless there is an Act of Parliament preventing ‘the scheme’, contractual relationships will eventually be resumed.

Aer Lingus did fully sponsor their MPL cadets, no doubt with a salary reduction as a payback for a number of years.

[guy_incognito]

I'm not sure when this crisis has passed that anyone will be able to raise a loan to fund one of these training courses. Surely all those caught short by what's just happened must be considering a personal bankruptcy against their debt?

I don't think that an unsecured loan for training has been obtainable for many years now, so as has already been mentioned it's very likely that mummy and daddy are going to be on the hook for the full amount with the family home at stake.

I don't have any issue with the MPL as a concept. I think the training is far more useful for those who intend on airline flying to the exclusion of everything else. It's somewhat anachronistic to expect new pilots who intend never to operate outside a multi-crew environment to spend hours bashing the circuit or doing single pilot nav ex's. The MPL is a good product that does what it's designed for. It's just a shame that in the current circumstances it's a worthless piece of paper, but let's face it: a traditional frozen ATPL would be at the moment too!

[Alex Whittingham]

It doesn't need an Act of Parliament, the CAA could simply make it a condition of approval that there is a no cost get-out to CPL IR if it all goes Pete Tong. Apart from the training quality arguments one v obvious reason why the ATOs jumped at the MPL is that it is significantly cheaper to deliver than the integrated ATPL, bigger profit margins. Time to ask them to set aside some of their profits in a contingency fund?

[rudestuff]

Maybe it's time for someone with a can do attitude in charge of the CAA who actually knows about/likes aviation and who can get :mad: done?

[Alex Whittingham]

Maybe. CAA Board (https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/About-us/CAA-board-and-staff/) noting an Air Marshall that joined the RAF the year I left, oh dear, and a chap called Chris Tingle, who I guess may be on furlough this year

[parkfell]

The CAA may not be very keen to involve themselves with contractual matters.
They would need to treat ATOs similar to airlines, requiring financial stability with an ‘ATOL’ style scheme to protect the unfortunate customers left high & dry.
This would require primary legislation I suspect?

[Alex Whittingham]

I don't think so. With the CAA emerging from EASA rules they can set their own standards. Do you think the old CAPs governing approved schools were set in primary legislation? Of course not, they were made up on the hoof. Whether they will be brave enough to do so is another question.

[kungfu panda]

parkfell

That C-19 would spoil the party was not foreseeable but that something would come along and spoil it was 100% foreseeable. It always does. These MPL's were a Ponzi scheme. Very sorry for all who got caught holding the worthless tickets. Those who got what was written on the tin, good on you, the gamble paid off, you were lucky.

[Bearhunter]

EasyJet and Air France dumped L3Harris in the same week!

[Bearhunter]

L3Harris are the 5th largest military ordnance manufacturer worldwide. They are totally US owned and are in the game to do nothing but increase their wealth. They have never paid a penny of tax to the UK Government and never intend to.
That is with whom you are dealing.
I am truly sorry for those guys who have got involved and 'gotten' burnt.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

The actual MPL product is specifically trained for the RHS and given 120 hours multi crew training prior to type rating, compared to the MCC course students are clearly better prepared. That is not to say that some very competent MCC/JOC/APS students also succeed without issues.

Sorry, but as someone who has to sit beside the product I have to say that is wrong in many ways. Whilst an MPL cadet may be a whiz at the iPad actually flying the aircraft is a challenge and too many are chopped for inability to land and the fleet sees a lot of heavy landings. Line Captains are unfairly burdened sitting beside many of these cadets who could do with their entire first year being solely with training Captains. The Airbus (aircraft) deprives a pilot of a certain amount of “feel”. An Airbus simulator further compounds this problem and this is where most of an MPL learns their “feel”. A solid bedrock of being able to actually fly first as a PPL with 100 hours P1 would enhance what actual ends up on the flight deck. Sadly, too many MPLs simply cannot land and on the line when you find your self in a dark stormy night in a :mad: little
airfield as a Captain with an MPL you very quickly find yourself single pilot. The sooner this MPL is confined to history the better.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

guy_incognito

Same thoughts again, it puts a person who can not really fly in the flight deck. They have no feel for stalls ( Airbus pax allready dead in a stall ) cross winds, landing single engine ops outside a sim and if the skipper has a heart attack they are in charge. Skippers face day after day with these types and end up single pilot on anything other than calm cavok 10,000ft runways. And even that is a challenge to many. The MPL is dangerous. Pilots need a bedrock of being able to fly to fall back on for the day the Airbus doesn’t do what it’s supposed to.

[parkfell]

ezydriver
I would suggest that it depends to a large extent on the simulator type your cadets carried out their 120 hours of initial multi crew training. I would hazard a guess and say they did their training on an A.320 simulator?

My experience is with MPL students on a B.737-800 simulator.
The feedback from airlines with these cadets is not the unfortunate experience you describe.

Having watched the ITV series where EZY were carrying out base training etc, what you say comes as no surprise. Flying a stable approach on final did in some cases seem to be somewhat of a challenge !

Aer Lingus MPL cadets at FTE (until March) carried out their 120 hours on the B737-800 and not the A.320

As for 100 hours P1 on light ac, I am not entirely convinced. There is sufficient light ac flying on the MPL course to teach “the basics”: select the appropriate ATTITUDE and Trim. That does need to be taught properly, otherwise there is no solid foundation to build on.
It is possible that where your particular experiences all stem from: indifferent initial basic training.

Given the C-19 implosion the MPL scheme with it previous one sided financial arrangements is probably a dead duck anyway.
Your wish is granted.....

[robby239]

kungfu panda

Etihad started now a new MPL program with 787 type rating. Starting the pilot career with a 787 is an absolute dream but the probability that this program is a Ponzi scheme is also too high.

[tubby linton]

I briefly worked for one of these training organisations and I saw a lot of corners being cut. I was glad my name was not on any of the paperwork.

[olster]

The MPL was a con trick to save money and cut corners and put a body into the rhs with the bare minimum of training. Not the fault of the cadets themselves. However, an arrangement between unscrupulous ATOs, compliant regulators and although not blameless but naive airlines. I feel very sorry for the cadets involved. Massive bills and no jobs.

[jez d]

robby239

I thought the scheme was fully sponsored by Etihad?

[parkfell]

......put a body into the rhs with the bare minimum of training........

I would be interested to know how you would write a flying syllabus
for ab-initio training so that trainees are properly prepared for the RHS?

Undoubtedly there are many ways “to skin the cat”.....

[jjuddy]

Bloomberg today reported that L3Harris is looking to divest its pilot training business...

[parkfell]

.....that could fetch $1 billion. No final decision made, and they may opt to keep the unit according to people familiar with the matter.......

Private Equity Firms are those apparently interested......make a quick buck and then sell on?

[ZFT]

Better start brushing up on your Quebecois!!

[olster]

I think it would be very unwise to invest in an integrated atpl right now. For L3 and their misguided mpl ‘scheme’ it would be a form of karma.

[jjuddy]

It is beyond doubt that L3 has not generally served its customers or the industry well - it has caused huge harm. But some of the criticism on this thread relating to the MPL and their handling of it is not well founded. The MPL was not designed by L3, it was designed by airline personnel, one in particular, approved by the CAA, and is only offered under the auspices of a sponsoring airline. L3 and the several other players (big and small) who offer training for this qualification only do so when an airline requests it and 'sponsors' it. If people don't like it (and I understand some of the arguments why people might not), you should direct your criticism at the airlines and the regulator.

Regards L3's handling of its own MPL cadets, other people have asked the question on this thread, and nobody has satisfactorily answered it: what else should they have done? The people who contracted these cadets, and then left them high and dry, are not L3 employees...

[olster]

You make some valid points JJ. I think the ethical route would be to do a deal with the regulator and convert all mpls into atpl with no extra cost to the individual. I realise that is a romantic vision of a hard corporate business model and could be construed as naive. However, the cadets with I agree the cooperation of the regulator and certain airlines have been royally shafted.

cheers

[parkfell]

I believe FTE offered their Flybe MPL students a ‘conversion’ to fATPL at favourable rates.

As has been pointed out these students were selected by the airline; in this case Flybe.The financial risk was with the student during the Jerez phase. The Exeter type rating & base training were funded by Flybe with I presume a ‘bonding scheme’.
The difference was that Flybe ceased trading on 5 March with C-19 impacting on passenger numbers.
EZY simply dumped their trainees***
Incidentally NATS also dumped their 128 (?) trainees as well. Now that was shortsighted.

***EDIT: Good news if CAT3C information is correct that EZY will complete the MPL training for licence issue.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Are people aware that the current MPL EJ cadets in their, intermediate and advanced training are going to finish the course and EJ have agreed to do their base training?

This has been the result of a number of individuals at L3H working hard negotiating with the CAA and EJ to resolve the issues to which they have been successful.

[Alex Whittingham]

if so, well done Easy and L3! That was the right answer.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Ladies & Gentleman,

I had the pleasure of working with some on these cadets last year in the first part of their SIM phase and saw some of them last week, back to finish their intermediate SIM phase with the advanced phase imminent.

I found the comments made about flying ability with MPL cadets interesting. I have had first hand experience of MCC/JOC and MPL cadets and seen various levels of ability in both areas and generally I must admit I have been very impressed with some of these MPL guys & gals and their ability to fly the aircraft manually. In the MPL basic SIM phase the cadets as a 3 crew variation do 64 hours in the SIM with no AP/ATHR or FD which is concluded with a competency check, very similar to an IR skill test. I think around 98% of the cadets (at their peak) I have seen have flown the aircraft far better than any line pilot I have ever seen in my Airbus line flying career! The feedback I have had from my friends who work in the training department at EZY has been very positive.

I was very pleased to see these cadets back and continuing with their training, and I know they are very grateful for what some of the instructors at L3H and EJ have done for them. Of course the next challenge will be to secure a position. I guess we can only hope that now, not only for MPL, but for all our less experienced colleagues in the flying world, that with the positive news of a vaccine for C-19, that the industry bounces back a lot quicker then expected. I am optimistic for the future.

I wish all our up and coming pilots all the best in the coming months.

[guy_incognito]

ezydriver

I've flown with the same guys as you have. If you gave me two cadets one day after another one of whom came through the traditional CPL/IR route and the other through the MPL, and nobody told me which was which, I doubt I'd be able to tell. You either accept the premise that it's safe to put cadets (of any background) in the RHS or you don't: that's up to you. The statistics simply don't support your argument that it is inherently dangerous though.

[robby239]

what did actually happen to all L3 Wizz cadets? anyone knows?

[olster]

How is business for L3? Have they still got any client airlines? Or Just self finance. Friend was believe it or not considering taking the plunge on an integrated course. My advice is wait or go modular. Is the product and training that much better there?

[Specaircrew]

Persuade your friend to follow your advice!

[SerriaFireFly]

Olster - Modular is certainly the way forward. Ability to decide on the pace of your training and the flexibility of working around it can be invaluable especially in these times. If he is looking to start is training, my advice to them would be to start the ATPL theory with books to get a better understanding of the subjects, will save him a lot of time later when the clock is against him.

In terms of L3Harris I can't say I ever went. I did apply for the easyJet MPL 4 or 5 year back when it was still CTC. And I must admit at the time I liked them as it felt pretty slick, even if you did have to pay through the nose to get on the course or even to interview. Looking back I was probably lucky to never go.

I have met a few people who went there. Very few outside of their media lot, don't seem to have much positive to say about their time. Issues with the costs, staff, aircraft access and the like when in New Zealand. Or those who went to the US had issues with aircraft reliability in the heat. Often seemed to have gone tech, apparently one had an engine failure on their solo early on.. but I can't prove that so it's just hearsay.
Although I am aware of the Virgin lot, a few of them ended up at easy to basically hour build. Then COVID happened just as they moved to VS, not sure they're employed now.
What I do know is some who were able to get out went on the FTE and comparatively sung it's praises.
It's a shame, L3 bought it thinking it was a cash cow, grew the costs, took money out the school, problems happen and end up turning it into a lame duck they're now trying to sell. The letter just goes to show much the brand has fallen publicly.

[olster]

Many thanks for that info SFF. Modular and taking your time is obviously the way to go. Even modular @ L3 is too expensive.

Cheers

[Captain-Random]

There’s been an Easy aircraft performing base training the past couple of days at NQY.

Maybe to get the L3 cadets training completed ?

[redsnail]

Maybe but probably more likely keeping various airframes flying once a month and crews current.

[Nightstop]

Nope, it was Base training for those who had completed their LPC in the Sim.

[Captain-Random]

Does these cadets have job offers ?

[flyingtrain]

what did actually happen to all L3 Wizz cadets? anyone knows?

They are all 'temporarily postponed' so carrying on if they wish on the same contract in the hope Wizz re-activate their deal in the contract. Lucky for these cadets, it was an ATPL and not an MPL.

[Stone Cold II]

Having driven past L3’s swanky sim centre the other day in Crawly, I can confirm not a single one was in use.

[ZFT]

Unless you can see the position of the drawbridges (which I don't think you can from Gatwick Road) I doubt you can confirm anything.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Stone Cold 2,

You should drive by tomorrow, I have just looked at the SIM schedule, and they are all in use.

And did you know that some of the training is done with motion off? Obviously you don't.

[Stone Cold II]

I had seen the drawbridges and all were down with no sign of activity.

Some very touchy people in here. I left the sim at CAE 19:30.

[ZFT]

Not at all touchy and I commend your eyesight.

[Stone Cold II]

It was quiet on the road, I drove past very slowly. Nice looking sims.

[olster]

L3 had a Diamond DA40 accident @ Cranfield some weeks ago. Any idea what happened? I presume / hope the pilot was ok. Mysteriously scant coverage.

[olster]

Sorry folks, the answer is in ‘Accidents’ where I should have gone first. Pilot ok which is main thing. The report will be from the AAIB.

[captain23]

I have my assessment next week anyone remembers anything from it? any questions and tips you would give me?

[rudestuff]

I have my assessment next week anyone remembers anything from it? any questions and tips you would give me?
You know this is a thread about a group of rip-off merchants right?

[Contact Approach]

You know this is a thread about a group of rip-off merchants right?
Stay clear of this organisation. If you want to waste your money on integrated training at least go somewhere that’ll get you through it.

[VariablePitchP]

i have my assessment next week anyone remembers anything from it? Any questions and tips you would give me?

run whilst you still can

[olster]

I agree. Avoid at all costs. Appalling and toxic. Complete and utter waste of money.