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View Full Version : L3 VS CAE VS Leading Edge vs FTA- What is the best choice 2021?


rj2208
22nd Sep 2020, 19:12
Dear all,

I am new to the forum so apologies in advance if I am writing this in the wrong section. I am 27 Y/O from UK looking to embark into the world of flying. This has not been possible in the past due to financial reasons however I am now in fortunate position to finance my entire flight training all by myself. My current job is a police officer (Sergeant) for one of the busiest force in UK and it is time that I now change career to something that I have always wanted which is to be a pilot.

I have carried out several research for the best ATPL integrated course and have found the above listed flight schools (CAE, L3, FTA & Leading Edge)- can someone please advise as to which would be the right option to go for; to start training in 2021? I am looking to start March 2021 onward and have already been advised by various people that I will need to submit my application to such flight school MONTHS in advance...

I understand during this difficult time various pilots have lost their job and those on MPL programme and have been reverted to just ATPL programme... with this in mind, I wish to go for flight school which would maximise my chance of employment at the end of the training. I do not know what the aviation industry will look like from 2-3 years from now and so finding the perfect right school is very crucial!

parkfell
23rd Sep 2020, 11:44
Why do I get a sense of déjà vu ~ I remember a police officer (MET?) asking this question in the last 12 months?
Obtain your Class One Medical without undue delay

Plan A: Visit all establishments on your short list. Make copious notes of the Qs & As.
Report back with your answers once a revised shortlist has been made.
You missed out FTE Jerez and Skyborne.

Plan B: Don’t give up the day job, and go modular. Obtain your PPL and see if you have the aptitude to progress.

Alex Whittingham
23rd Sep 2020, 11:47
Doubtless you will receive strong advice from the forum to avoid integrated training because it is overpriced compared to modular (up to twice as expensive) and few integrated ATOs had reliable links to employment even before COVID, the most secure apparntly being the Easyjet MPL programme, but that has imploded recently leaving many candidates in an extremely poor position.

Assuming you have done your research and you know this but still want an integrated course all I can say is proceed with caution. All the ATOs you list do either an adequate or good job in training, and you should add FTE Jerez and Skyborne to the list, they are both well thought of. The issue is that recruitment for integrated training has fallen off a cliff this year and there is more than a fighting chance that some of those you quote will either go bust or simply withdraw from ab-initio training within the next 12 months. L3, for instance, simply closed a school earlier this year and told all the cadets to go away, their training contracts were cancelled.

Bealzebub
23rd Sep 2020, 11:56
I have always tended to offer advice or information based on historical precedent rather than future predictions. If I was particularly talented at the latter I would have hoped to be much richer than I currently am. That said, I have two children who are also police officers and although not always the case, they currently give me less cause for worry than those in aviation. Interestingly, the police has long been a source of recruits transferring their careers. That may be just coincidence, but nevertheless it’s an observation.

Ordinarily, I would suggest looking at those programmes that have traditionally dovetailed into airline cadet programmes. If you look back over my previous posting history you can see what I thought the best courses of action were and the reasons why. Plenty of people took issue with some of those postings and again you can read the reasons why.

This year the world has been turned on its head. Aviation has been decimated by these events, perhaps more so than any other industry. I believe that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg at the moment and the real damage is going to come in the next few years. The intensive care measures that are being applied to the economy are eventually going to subside, and there are likely to be a lot of casualties as a result. Even (as it eventually will) The economies recover, it will take a long time for this industry to get back to anywhere near where it was at the beginning of this year. There are plenty of pundits who are very well qualified in these matters, suggesting figures of anything up to a decade. Plenty of people (me included) are hoping that we muddle through the immediate future and everything will go back to “normal” at some point. Recovery is likely to be relatively slow and painful. There are literally Tens of thousands of experienced and very experienced pilots who have been made redundant or threatened with the imminent prospect of same.

Weak demand and strong supply is also going to have a decimating effect on remuneration well into the future for those pilots who do keep their jobs. I have no particular insight, but wouldn’t be at all surprised to see average weighted earnings in a couple of years at half (or less) where they are today, and that being applicable across the board. I also think it is going to be a long time before airlines see any real need to recruit new trainee (cadet) pilots. Perhaps ironically, when they do, it is likely to be even more focussed on full time integrated programmes based entirely on the prospective cadets own financial risk!

However, and going back to your question, I cannot see demand in that sector existing in realistic terms for a significant period of time? The pilot training industry (across all markets) is likely going to suffer every bit as much as the airline sector. There will be many failures, consolidations, and changes in this sector as a result. Just as with remuneration, supply and demand market forces are likely to put a great deal of stress on pricing in the training industry, and a result you will likely see pricing come down substantially.

At 27 you have done extremely well to find yourself in the fiscal position you have, but I would have to say be very cautious indeed before embarking on the change you obviously now feel able to do. There are always enormous risks even in good times, but I see very little reason for an optimistic upturn in the near term future. Yes, there will certainly be an upturn at some point, but reabsorbing the huge numbers of available and experienced resource is going to take many, many years beyond that point.

People have made a lot of money and had great success by bucking trends. However (just like lottery winners) very few have done so. My advice at this point would be to keep doing what you are doing. Certainly do some flying and keep a constant eye on trends. You are not going to get caught out by an upturn. As and when things do improve to a significant level, the signals (even the overly optimistic ones) will be there a good 2-3 years before the reality.

skyblue12
23rd Sep 2020, 15:15
I would personally just sit on my hands for the next 12 months. If you are desperate to follow this career path now perhaps isn’t the best time. In a year you should get a much clearer idea of where the world is going and what is happening to the economy.
They may find a cure they may not, this could go on for another year or 3.

Modular is probably the way to go nowadays. Much less commitment and cheaper. Also it won’t impact your chances of getting a job. CAE have no connections, all jobs, when they become available, are open to anyone online to see. Being part of a big flight school won’t change that.

Just dont be in a rush to part with any cash cash right now, all flight schools will bite your hand off for your custom. Give it a year. Good luck.

2unlimited
23rd Sep 2020, 19:45
Train Modular, at your leisure. No rush, enjoy it, stretch it out over 3 - 5 years if you can. Modular will save you tons of money too.

Climb150
23rd Sep 2020, 22:31
Do your exams, get a PPL and single engine IR. Renew your IR every few years to keep your exams from expiring. While you have a PPL you can work on hour building for your CPL.

When the upswing occurs you will be able to get the rest of the training done quickly and ride the wave. If there is no upswing then you will have a PPL and some fun ways to spend a weekend.

rudestuff
24th Sep 2020, 09:52
Sound advice, but your need to get both the CPL and IR issued belt the 36 months is up to 'save' the exams. If you stretch everything to the max, that still gives 4½ years from first exam to last flight test.

planesandthings
24th Sep 2020, 20:36
Concur with a lot of the posts here, if you must early 2021 go modular, take your time and don't burn through money. You mention about the unfortunate MPL cadets, in reality some have transferred to ATPL at 'significant extra cost' (near 150k now) others have run out of money, and have finished up with nothing to show having spent £80k at schools like L3 and CAE, at least one individual close to me may sadly default on their loan, he has no other choice.

You sound like you're in a stable well respected job, is there a rush? I wouldn't be putting serious money down on a integrated training course until late 2021 at the very earliest, who knows how things will recover, more airlines and training schools may go bust yet and the true airline recovery may not be seen for half a decade once the thousands of pilots out of work hopefully get a job again.

Make sure you listen to independent people like here. If they have, any flying school suggesting that you must apply now to start in 2021 is one to avoid, they are a business and they are in crisis and need income, I feel sorry for the sales people who must know they are putting a unrealistic spin on things right now.

No training school can claim to have good employment links for the time being, the fact one of the safest schemes the British Airways/EasyJet MPL has completely crashed shows that nothing is certain in this industry anymore and you should proceed with caution on what training schools are selling.

Things will get better, but the industry is far from being on a certain rebound yet.

PFD
25th Sep 2020, 11:24
As someone who has worked with L3 and Oxford, before CAE, I can't recommend either now. I have loads of ex students who were/are being treated very shabbily by big corporations that really don't give an Ess H 1 T. BGS, and Leading Edge I know do Modular, or for Integrated Leading Edge or Skyborne should be on your list. I can't comment on FTE, but haven't heard anything bad.

PLAMALTN
25th Sep 2020, 13:27
Good advice from the previous posters - I intend to do modular and keep my job going at the same time. Good luck!

adnams
28th Feb 2021, 14:28
Does anyone have the current payment plan for CAE Oxford, Integrated Course ?

Contact Approach
28th Feb 2021, 15:30
Keep the day job and get a ppl if you really must. This industry is heading to min wage at best.

Specaircrew
1st Mar 2021, 08:32
Another vote for modular, add Aeros and CAT3C to the list of modular ATO's already mentioned.

olster
7th Mar 2021, 10:32
L3 is massively overpriced. They have shafted recent cadets (well documented). Go modular at your local flying school and enjoy the ride.

DH106COMET
9th Mar 2021, 17:21
I wouldn't choose either of these schools. L3 are closing their big fair weather base in New Zealand and their Portugal operations have been beset with problems from the outset. Also, the entire L3 Commercial Aviation Training business is up for sale as it is losing so much money. In the current climate it is anybody's guess as to who will buy it. CAE have virtually ceased flight training in Europe and appear to be in the process of closing down their historic base in Oxford. Again, ab-initio is losing them a lot of money and they appear to have lost interest. They haven't invested a penny in the business since 2013. Much better off going to one of the boutique operators who really care about the customer such as Leading Edge or Skyborne. The American / Canadian corporates only care about how much money they can take off students and provide a low standard of service these days.

polax52
12th Mar 2021, 20:04
It's just not the right time to start any flight training right now. Even if the pandemic is completely finished this year, new jobs will not appear before 2024/2025. The reason is simply that the major recruiters have so many Pilots out on furlough, unpaid leave or redundant but first in line to return. For example Emirates have one of the best training systems in the world, when training is at full throttle they get 800 Pilots a year through. They currently have around 1500 Pilots on unpaid leave and a further 800 who are redundant. At best it'll take 2022 and 2023 to bring those guys back to the line, and probably longer. British Airways and other Airlines are in the same situation and I'd be surprised if their training departments were as efficient as Emirates.

Chief Willy
12th Mar 2021, 20:56
Many airlines I’m aware of in Europe (apart from Ryanair) have got rid of all their pilot recruitment staff. No need for them for the next few years. There really wont be any recruiting of new pilots for the foreseeable. So yes you are financially illiterate to even consider flight training at this time, blindly following a dream will leave you destitute. You’ve got to be better than that and use a business approach in order to succeed in this industry. Start your training when you actually see pilot recruitment picking up and cadets getting actual jobs.

olster
13th Mar 2021, 12:26
Not a good time to start however....if this is your dream then go modular. Enjoy the training, don’t bankrupt yourself by being seduced by a glossy brochure and catastrophic financial planning. As a football manager would say, take each game as it comes ie go from phase to phase. Value every hour training; prepare for each flight thoroughly. Read the books and absorb the theory. Of course you need the time so find a job in between flight phases. The airlines will need well rounded individuals rather than freshly minted graduates of sausage factories. Avoid the likes of L3 like the plague (or virus of choice). My best guess would be recruitment should start in 2/3 years but that is just a guess. And did I say enjoy the training?

polax52
14th Mar 2021, 06:22
It's simply impossible for recruitment to start as early as 2 years from now. You just have to do the maths on the training required for the guys coming back from furlough or unpaid leave. If you want to put a totally realistic date to jobs, go for 2026. If you look back at the 1990's where you had a number of Airlines going bankrupt in the early part of the decade, combined with over recruitment in the 1980's, there was a recruitment hiatus from 1990 to 1996.

Look as well at the recent news on Easyjet. They have deferred delivery of orders that were supposed to be delivered at the beginning of this decade to the end of the decade.

Booglebox
14th Mar 2021, 16:00
Ignore the pessimists and get training ASAP!

kungfu panda
14th Mar 2021, 16:58
Polax is realistic. It's time to ignore misinformation.
In some countries 90% of Pilots are currently unemployed. You tell me how long it will take to absorb those guy's before Cadets are considered?

Let's not waste good money on flight training until the right time.

Alex Whittingham
14th Mar 2021, 19:27
Agree, although Polax may be describing the American recruiting market in the 1990s, in the UK at least it was lively. By '92 the airlines were so short of pilots that people were being offered airline jobs on the basis of a booked IR test! In fact the bottleneck became the good old CAA who were unable to test people fast enough and many pilots completed their IR course, booked a test some months later (you couldn't book until you had passed a 170A 'pre-test' flight), and then had do expensive refresher flying before the test. By the last half of the '90s Easyjet and others were desperate for pilots - a boon for many Ozmates with thousands of hours on small piston twins and no prospect of a jet job back home, who suddenly discovered v useful English grandparents. They are here still.

lmck95
11th Feb 2022, 13:55
Do you think it's still too early to start an 18-month ATPL now?

KT1988
11th Feb 2022, 15:45
@Imck95: Well I believe that if all restrictions get thrown in the recycle bin and just like Spain other places say the covid is endemic and then by the summer everything works as before then there should be no reason for people not starting to travel just like they did before the pandemic.

In business its always best to buy stuff when the crisis is at its peak (or bottom as it can also be called) since its cheapest then. Since when the crisis is gone and people fly just as much as they did before the pandemic then absolutely all the pilots needed before will be needed again. From this equation one can subtract all the pilots who finished their careers (people do not stop getting older because there is a pandemic also some resigned), then probably much fewer new ones have been trained than before and when the good times come back there will again be a growth in the airline industry. So who will get a better chance? Someone who is ready for the start of the good times when there are almost 0 fresh pilots or someone who start their training when the good times come back and come seeking for a job 2 years later together with the 1000s of people who all had the same idea and waited to start their training for the moment when good times are back?

As with everything its always a risk, but buy at the bottom and sell at the top tend to work more often than buy at the top :}

rj2208
11th Feb 2022, 20:33
Do you think it's still too early to start an 18-month ATPL now?

agree with the comments made from KT, there will always be a reason not start training however if you are serious and have the means go for it! I am starting on MPL programme later in summer this year and I know it is a risk, however it is a risk I am willing to accept.

KT1988
11th Feb 2022, 21:02
@rj2208: Well MPL program is it not connected to a specific airline? I would think the risk intensify compared to frozen ATPL that give someone a chance not only with a specific airline.

rj2208
11th Feb 2022, 23:30
@rj2208: Well MPL program is it not connected to a specific airline? I would think the risk intensify compared to frozen ATPL that give someone a chance not only with a specific airline.

yes you are right, the MPL programme is tagged to airline and should they go bust due to covid or any other reason than your money has essentially gone down the drain! The risk intensifies a lot but also pays off as it is the quickest way of getting into a right hand seat in given circumstance, although this will improve over time. MPL licence can be unlocked to ATPL at 1500hrs so at the end it will all be the same as long as the airline doesn’t go bust or they fire you. Hope this helps!

KT1988
11th Feb 2022, 23:46
@rj2208: I know how MPL work but thought maybe they made whitetail one now since its kind of strange that any airline at the moment offer a secure spot. I find it kind of strange from the "I like to fly" perspective with so much less hours spent flying during the training and also it kind of prevent you from applying to other airlines and flying jobs if the airline change their mind and can not deliver the job. But yes if it works its probably the fastest way to the FO position.

parkfell
12th Feb 2022, 20:27
Do you think it's still too early to start an 18-month ATPL now?

Not too early probably going down the Modular route. Optimistic signs include Spain saying kids no longer need to be jabbed up to the eyeballs to travel. Simon Calder Twitter feed refers.

FTE Jerez have recently completed a MPL course which was paused due Covid.
Their website has the details.
MPL is firmly attached to an airline as students are selected by them; their SOPs are used during the simulator phases.
Ideally any contract would have a plan B that in the event due Force Majeure, no additional costs for conversion to the standard CPL/IR (fATPL) route. This was historically in CTC contracts before a change of ownership occurred.

rudestuff
13th Feb 2022, 04:11
Do you think it's still too early to start an 18-month ATPL now?
Considering the one-way nature of time, if you can afford it, it's never too early to start training.

​​​​​Personally I think unless there is a firm job offer, choosing to do an MPL or Integrated fATPL should be grounds for losing your medical based on demonstrated cognitive deficiency, but that's just me.

KT1988
14th Feb 2022, 00:08
@rudestuff: I do also find integrated programs without job guarantee to be something really risky, first of all you pay the cost of modular training + almost a used private aircraft cost. But what is worse is no control over the training. Imagine people who were in integrated training when the pandemic started well they had to finish eitherway. Modular you can just wait the only thing speeding you up is the atpl theory exams validity but its 3 years from the last exam.

So personally I will have to finish ME/IR and CPL(A) before July this year but if I went for integrated I would be finished in 2020... and would have no option of being FI(A) or doing some IR flying for IRI etc. itd. or would have to do it at some completely other school than the one with integrated program. So kind of much less risk with modular route and if someone need help with theory or whatever well then private teacher wont even cost 10 000 euro for like 100s of hours of private exam and theory training.

So this sounds almost true and not exaggerated: ​​​​​Personally I think unless there is a firm job offer, choosing to do an MPL or Integrated fATPL should be grounds for losing your medical based on demonstrated cognitive deficiency, but that's just me.

parkfell
15th Feb 2022, 16:41
Choosing the MCC/APS provider is a critical choice depending on your aspirations…

KT1988
15th Feb 2022, 17:55
@parkfell: Before the pandemic disaster I was planning on doing the VA APS MCC Ryanair mentored program (hoping for the Polish bases) but since the pandemic screwed everything then I decided I will wait with the last part for the beginning of the good times (it does not take long) when there will again be a lot of spots and fewest ready fresh pilots (since most people will be starting their training, while others will have a lot of catch up stuff to do before being redy like renewing stuff). Meanwhile I believe I will do some FI(A) stuff or burn some holes in the sky doing IR flights for 200 hours to be IRI. Also its possible to train with airline instructors privately on the sims used by Enter Air or by LOT for assessments in case something opens almost only for Polish pilots (there are not as many fresh ones as in western Europe waiting for the spot).

Eitherway I believe the most important thing is to be able to regard flying as a hobby (including the whole training etc.) and not as income source at least until being hired by an airline. That way it will not be a life breaking event/failure to not get an airline job but an epic adventure and fun of flying during the training or during renewals etc. itd. or being a FI. And who knows what future brings if you are ready when you are needed the chance may always come suddenly. But if someone take debt for training or have nothing to live of (job or investment) then the risk is enormous.

parkfell
16th Feb 2022, 06:33
Given the uncertainty of the market, it has been previously suggested to undertake the IR training & test on a single engined ac for CPL/IR licence issue. When the ‘crest of the wave’ is imminent, upgrade the IR to multi engine followed promptly by the MCC/APS & hit the ground running.
This would avoid light ac currency issues unless of course your timing is based on a less than opaque crystal ball…

KT1988
16th Feb 2022, 06:57
@parkfell: Well it depends on what people have already bought in advance. It sounds good if someone does not already have prebought ME/IR (or there is no complex SEP(L) available for the CPL part) from before the pandemic. Eitherway being an FI or doing some SE IR timebuilding for fun or possible IRI (200h) should keep from forgetting how to fly.

RedDragonFlyer
16th Feb 2022, 23:38
The issue with a single engine CPL/IR license is that it isn't that much cheaper than a multi-engine one. Yes, it does give you a decent amount of recency if you later go onto do it ME which a lot of airlines look for, but the overall cost is going to be notably higher unless parkfell knows more than what I have seen related to costs.


The market is still in an incredible state of flux. Nobody can say with certainty how much demand there'll be next month, never mind in 18, 24 or 48 months' time. That said, I don't think now is a bad time to start as long as you give yourself flexibility (i.e. go modular).
I don't agree with some of the comments above (especially the one referring to 2026 and the one about all airlines getting rid of recruitment staff for the foreseeable* which were both made last year).
Some airlines will always go for cadets as they are far more profitable for the airline. You can't just say that because there are hundreds of unemployed FOs each with a couple of thousand hours in one country that cadets with the bare minimum will never be hired in another country. That's just not how it works.
Then you have the effect of people being sucked upwards/ onwards as the Middle Eastern and national carriers start hiring. We've already seen it start to happen. That creates a vacuum at other airlines which needs to be filled.
Since 2020 a lot of pilots have retired or moved on and simply won't come back (as sad as that sounds).
Obviously the current situation isn't all rosy, but it is hardly end of the Earth style doom and gloom either.

parkfell
17th Feb 2022, 19:25
The issue with a single engine CPL/IR license is that it isn't that much cheaper than a multi-engine one. Yes, it does give you a decent amount of recency if you later go onto do it ME which a lot of airlines look for, but the overall cost is going to be notably higher unless parkfell knows more than what I have seen related to costs.

Might doing most of your commercial fight training in the USA, UK CAA CPL/MEP with FAA IR(SE), then return for UK CAA CB/IR (A) followed by MCC.
The critical aspect is ‘hitting the ground running’ prior to any airline interview/sim ride.
Even if wholly trained in the UK you need to consider being ‘current’ with a shiny new MCC/APS certificate.

Even just 28 days since the last training event will reduce the ‘ideal sharpness’ needed. A top up would be advisable?
As ever, a personal choice depending upon your circumstances.

rudestuff
18th Feb 2022, 07:39
The issue with a single engine CPL/IR license is that it isn't that much cheaper than a multi-engine one. Yes, it does give you a decent amount of recency if you later go onto do it ME which a lot of airlines look for, but the overall cost is going to be notably higher unless parkfell knows more than what I have seen related to costs.

I don't know how you came up with this. An SEIR costs a fraction of what an MEIR does.

Let's say you have very poor advice, so you get your CPL then MEIR, which a lot of people do. That MEIR is going to cost you £10k+ because you have to fly 30 hours SIM and 15 hours MEP. The kick in the teeth is that the flight school will convince you that you're saving money in the simulator.

If you decided to get an SEIR at some point during your hour building before CPL, then you could do all the IR training in the aircraft you are already hour building in. The total cost for that IR would be the cost of 40 hours instruction plus any aircraft upgrade. Cost: £2-3k.

Cons:

You'll have to 'upgrade' to an MEIR at some point. But the 'add-on' course only requires 5 MEP hours rather than 15.
You'll have to do 2 IR tests. So what? You'll be doing 2 a year for the rest of your career.
You won't have any/much SIM time. Not really a problem 40 hours is more than enough to get an IR
​​​
The advantages of an SEIR for anyone flight training in the current climate are:

1) It 'saves' the ATPL exams for minimal cost.
2) It puts you within 6 weeks of the finish line (MCC)
3) It adds a gloss of recency to your CV - the things airlines actually care about (MEIR and MCC) will be brand new.

RedDragonFlyer
18th Feb 2022, 14:33
So you are basing the SE-IR being cheaper by counting it as a part of the hour building? Surely they won't be PIC hours if that is the case?. I also think a lot of people do hour building in aircraft that are not certified for IR flying due to cost.

That certainly isn't a path well tread either. You're right that for most people, it would doing a non-integrated course it would be hour building, then the CPL/ME-IR and then straight to the MCC/APS. It'd be interesting to see more information online from anyone who had done it. I had a bit of a Google and couldn't find anything.

I am definitely intrigued by this just costing £2-£3k more than the basic hour building price though.
I think your three advantages are very real too.

KT1988
18th Feb 2022, 14:43
@RedDragonFlyer: Well to fly by IFR and build IR hours as PIC hours someone would have to pass the IR before passing the CPL(A) and then do the remaining necessary PIC hours in IR. Its the only way I believe would work. During the pandemic even thought about it in order to get 200 IR hours (ofc if you do not have your own aircraft with proper avionics it would be extremely expensive (not only cost of the fuel) to fly 170 extra hours just burning holes in the sky) for IRI(A) + 30 ME PIC hours for CRI. But kind of will see what happens after doing the postponed IR/ME + CPL(A) and FI(A) traning that is already waiting for me since 2020.

tedioustortoise
19th Feb 2022, 06:53
Cons:

You'll have to 'upgrade' to an MEIR at some point. But the 'add-on' course only requires 5 MEP hours rather than 15.
You'll have to do 2 IR tests. So what? You'll be doing 2 a year for the rest of your career.
You won't have any/much SIM time. Not really a problem 40 hours is more than enough to get an IR
​​​
The advantages of an SEIR for anyone flight training in the current climate are:

1) It 'saves' the ATPL exams for minimal cost.
2) It puts you within 6 weeks of the finish line (MCC)
3) It adds a gloss of recency to your CV - the things airlines actually care about (MEIR and MCC) will be brand new.


Nothing wrong with the above, certainly agree. Though do think it is important to note that more experience in a twin and also in Jet Orientation goes a long way for sim assessments with cadet recruitment with airlines who fly jets. I have been told by various sim assessors that there is often an obvious difference in skills between someone who has gone through the Integrated route or spent well on an APS-MCC (or AQC-JOC/MCC) compared to someone who has spent the least amount possible just to obtain a CPL MEIR, perhaps with a cheap MCC on the side.

Obviously depends on what who you want to fly for, but if going for jets, don’t compromise on MEP or jet sim time - and keep that sim time current (even if fixed base etc.)

RedDragonFlyer
19th Feb 2022, 10:32
KT1988 Yes, I get that. However, the poster suggested that the hours completed actually doing the IR course would be a part of the hour building. Unless I am misreading/ misunderstanding, that is how he works it out to be such good value financially.

That's why I asked in the post if there were more detailed information on doing such a thing online.

KT1988
19th Feb 2022, 10:51
@RedDragonFlyer: Well I believe what he meant was that hours done in the IR course count towards the total hours since for CPL(A) you only need 100 PIC hours but you need 200 hours total. So if you did not do much above the mandatory 45 to complete the PPL(A) you need kind of some more hours than the 100 PIC hours and the hours done during the CPL(A) training with instructor.

rudestuff
19th Feb 2022, 18:34
The reason I'm an advocate of the IR-first approach is in part because I didn't do it myself, but wish I had.

I followed the standard PPL then 100 PIC route, got the CPL then did most of my IR training in the SIM. When you look at what some places charge for a SIM+instructor it's comparable with an hour building rate in a cheap single.
It would take some planning, but assuming 35 hours dual for the PPL, 40 for the IR and 15 for the CPL that's 90 hours dual, 10 as a buffer and 100 PIC is still possible.
Let's say you upgrade your C152 to an IFR PA28 for an extra £40 an hour - that's £1600 extra. Add in the cost of 40 hours IR instruction and that's the core cost of your IR if done first.

The points about fewer MEP hours are valid, but it's a cheaper option. You could also choose to do 100 hours of MEP hour building if money is no option. Ultimately it's up to you to find where you feel comfortable on the spectrum.
It's unlikely that you'd have any asymmetric work in a cadet assessment, so MEP experience isn't really too important (you can either fly an ILS or can't) which means that the MCC is really the only thing that's comparable to jet flying, so choose wisely and do it in a relevant type.

parkfell
20th Feb 2022, 12:36
……the MCC is really the only thing that's comparable to jet flying, so choose wisely and do it in a relevant type.

For those who have aspirations to go RHS, it is worth bearing in mind that the issue of a CPL/IR is but an important stepping stone. It is to this that a MP type rating will be attached.

The absolutely critical part comes next.

The MCC/APS course. Some providers are dual approved by EASA & UK CAA. This may be an important factor for those who are issued with both licences.

Now the simulator. Whilst this is not a type course, a Boeing 737-800 is,
in my view, a better preparation for that all important sim ride when hand flying and trimming amongst other skills will be assessed.

The Airbus is clearly a far more sophisticated machine and it trims for you; so having to trim for the first time on a Boeing sim ride might prove somewhat of a challenge?

As RUDESTUFF quite rightly says, choose wisely.

portsharbourflyer
20th Feb 2022, 18:28
Just to add for UK pilots there is the option of doing the IRR, after which the IRR privileges can be used to accumulate p1 IFR time (due attention should be given the difference between IFR and FSRI, ie flying under the hood in class G en route with a safety pilot is P1 but not IFR, but any practice IF approaches could be logged p1 IFR).So yes for UK PPL holders with an IRR you can do IFR hour building, that would allow a IRR holder to accumulate the 40 hours IFR as a requisite for the CB IR. 15 hours from the IRR and potentially the remainder 25 from using the IRR.

KiwiFlyer777
10th Mar 2022, 08:57
I've heard LEA scrapped plans for expansion and a new fair weather base due to financial problems.

olster
10th Mar 2022, 21:42
Not L3, really bad news. Overpriced and not as advertised.

PFD
11th Mar 2022, 07:31
I've heard LEA scrapped plans for expansion and a new fair weather base due to financial problems.

Well you Heard- wrong then.

glush
26th Mar 2022, 05:51
Not L3, really bad news. Overpriced and not as advertised.

Correct. Utter shambles. Bournemouth and Portugal to be closed by end of June. They’re still sending a lot of students to train at Leading Edge! Why not just go direct to them and save some money?
L3 want out of European flight training (if not flight training altogether) and will consolidate in Florida.

KiwiFlyer777
29th Mar 2022, 10:42
Correct. Utter shambles. Bournemouth and Portugal to be closed by end of June. They’re still sending a lot of students to train at Leading Edge! Why not just go direct to them and save some money?
L3 want out of European flight training (if not flight training altogether) and will consolidate in Florida.

Much like Leading Edge. A huge amount of Instructors left, lack of serviceable aircraft, students flying once a week, huge debts and management with no experience.

Try Skyborne at Gloucester/Vero Beach.

glush
30th Mar 2022, 08:16
No connections with Skyborne, but have seen their operation and know their business operation. They seem to have ‘the right stuff’ and would get my vote. Some good people there running it too.

PFD
31st Mar 2022, 07:25
Much like Leading Edge. A huge amount of Instructors left, lack of serviceable aircraft, students flying once a week, huge debts and management with no experience.


Blimey. You should write for the Daily Mail or Express weather predictions section.

Fanor
3rd Nov 2022, 07:32
Hi Guys

Any Update on Leading edge and their financial Situation? Rumours going around that things are not very stable.

Thanks

Aerostar6
5th Nov 2022, 13:45
Heard Oxford rents not being paid.

Arena_33
5th Nov 2022, 15:39
Leading edge announced 6 fully funded scholarship positions with FI rating today - strange considering their financial position. £50 initial assessment fee, further £250 in fees if you progress. Something tells me it wouldn't be the wisest move to apply

VariablePitchP
5th Nov 2022, 20:24
Leading edge announced 6 fully funded scholarship positions with FI rating today - strange considering their financial position. £50 initial assessment fee, further £250 in fees if you progress. Something tells me it wouldn't be the wisest move to apply

Disagree. £300 is a good chunk but it’s pennies if you’re learning to fly.

What’s the risk? Get most of the way through training and they go bust? Take your ATPL credit and 100 hours and go finish it off for pennies elsewhere..! Bust after training, great, that’s the bond gone!

planesandthings
5th Nov 2022, 22:11
There's no doubt that this is a fantastic opportunity for those successful and hats off to LE for making real steps in the right direction. But it's obvious to see that asking everyone to pay up to £300 to apply whether you are successful or not will go a fair way to allow LE to fund this programme if people apply in big numbers. Worth noting LE haven't been charging for selection until this opportunity was announced... funny that.

Always been a big believer that it's disappointing enough not to be selected for such an opportunity, letalone end up £300 out of pocket for trying. Aviation has to be one of the only industries that charges for unsuccessful applicants?!? But fear not if you join one of the self funded courses they'll refund the selection fee..Go figure...

Hats.On.To.Fly
6th Nov 2022, 14:15
Lot's of experienced FIs leaving, to be replaced by fresh student graduates in 16 months time, what could go wrong.
​​​​​​
2 year bond to repay 115k, be interesting to see how that got by finance.

​​​​​

VariablePitchP
6th Nov 2022, 17:16
Lot's of experienced FIs leaving, to be replaced by fresh student graduates in 16 months time, what could go wrong.
​​​​​​
2 year bond to repay 115k, be interesting to see how that got by finance.

​​​​​

The bond would be totally unenforceable in that case. What will they do, repossess your instructor spec 2006 Corsa?

Two years instructing isn’t the end of the world, given you get the MCC etc you’ll be ready to walk into the blue and yellow 737 the second that bond expires.

Hats.On.To.Fly
6th Nov 2022, 18:34
The bond would be totally unenforceable in that case. What will they do, repossess your instructor spec 2006 Corsa?

Two years instructing isn’t the end of the world, given you get the MCC etc you’ll be ready to walk into the blue and yellow 737 the second that bond expires.

Oh don't get me wrong, that is a great deal for the students and there will be massive competition for those 6 places. Pretty cushty for a 2 year bond, airlines used to do 4+ years for a 30k type rating.

I just don't understand it from the business side. Leading Edge apparently couldn't pay their bills recently, and just opened a fair weather base and so have all the costs associated with that. It just doesn't add up.

VariablePitchP
6th Nov 2022, 19:21
Oh don't get me wrong, that is a great deal for the students and there will be massive competition for those 6 places. Pretty cushty for a 2 year bond, airlines used to do 4+ years for a 30k type rating.

I just don't understand it from the business side. Leading Edge apparently couldn't pay their bills recently, and just opened a fair weather base and so have all the costs associated with that. It just doesn't add up.

It definitely doesn’t add up if you think of it as them paying £115K. Reality is that includes VAT for customers paying it, so we’re straight away down to £95K. That’s got a load of margin in, can’t be costing them much more than £60K to actually train them. Which will have some obscure tax write off built into it. It’s got the BSc thing, all sorts of stuff they can play.

Huge amount of free advertising, charging lots of people for assessments.

On balance though, I still can’t knock it. There will absolutely be people who get licences who otherwise couldn’t, and that can only be a good thing.

planesandthings
6th Nov 2022, 19:33
I just don't understand it from the business side. Leading Edge apparently couldn't pay their bills recently, and just opened a fair weather base and so have all the costs associated with that. It just doesn't add up.

The new base is a fairly derelict Spanish airfield with little infrastructure, probably a fairly good deal was done with the local government who will do anything for a drop of investment.

As for the programme, At a minimum with 1000 applicants to this scheme it is likely that Leading Edge will make enough in assessment fees to cover half the programme's cost, take on some others who will likely go whitetail anyway at their own expense and LE haven't really reached far into their pockets at all. Some would say it's more of a lottery.

lederhosen
7th Nov 2022, 07:22
The last few years have been brutal for people wanting to fly for an airline in Europe. Most recently Covid and now the war in Ukraine have additionally left a number of highly experienced pilots high and dry. I know several who have become train drivers. Others like myself have retired. Two I spoke to in the last week are now in successful business careers and fly for fun, both have ATPLs. I am hesitant to conclude that things are looking up, because the inevitable economic hangover must dampen demand. But I am nonetheless intrigued when a jobs upturn will occur here as it undoubtedly has in the US. I am interested if anyone has any data on the current situation. To prime the pump I had a look at ATPL theory exam passes over the last 20 years here in Germany. Not surprisingly the numbers appear to have more than halved over the last 20 years. This is hardly surprising if jobs are hard to come by and the cost of training is over €100K. You can obviously save some by following the self improver route, but it is still a big perishable investment. Does anyone have an overview on number of pilots required versus current output?

spitfirejock
13th Nov 2022, 20:34
Don't forget the old saying, "there is no such thing as a free lunch"....

BCFT (a long established and quite respectable UK school) recently went bankrupt recently so beware of 'free' offers. No flight training school could ever afford to give away such vast sums. It is clever marketing for sure. Leading Edge state on their website they are willing to give away almost 700,000 pounds in free courses, this cannot be sustainable for any ATO. They will have to fund it with either an incredibly large number of people paying for the assessment, highly improbable, or the scheme will ultimately collapse. As the previous posters suggest, if you were one of the lucky ones I guess it could be looked at like a 300 pound lottery ticket, however, the catch is you have to pass. Cynically, one could imagine the free courses will only be offered when enough have paid! Furthermore, there are bound to be lots of legal clauses which will allow the school to get out of the commitment at any time, just as L3 did when Covid hit, so perhaps it's not quite like winning the lottery.

The history of flight training proves beyond any doubt that profit margins are often slim and companies fold quite frequently. Its also true, some that collapsed were due to dishonesty of the owners....pocket your money and run! The so called 'big 3' maybe able to fund aggressive advertising and marketing campaigns and can take larger risks because they have the financial backing, nevertheless, as history has proven, when they fail to produce the profits demanded by investors, things change quickly and students are left hanging.

The sad thing about flight training is that it takes a lot of investment and a lot of energy to make and sustain a long term business. Often too many schools chasing too few customers, boom to bust is the norm, pilot demand fluctuates and the training industry goes up and down with it. Potential customers are often bewildered by opinions, by the choices, the arguments about the best way forward (modular vs integrated being the big one) and sadly, there are still too many less the honest school owners trying to get their piece of the pie.

My message has been consistent, along with many others on this forum. Airlines will take you if they need pilots and you are up to the task (well trained), so: go modular, keep control, don't pay all up front, don't be dazzled by big is best and don't pay over 100K when you can get it all for 60-70% of that cost, and finally, don't fall for promises which are often smoke and mirrors and clever marketing (lots of schools are trying them), and remember, freebies always cost money someone ultimately has to pay..

SJ

jez d
14th Nov 2022, 13:23
BCFT (a long established and quite respectable UK school) recently went bankrupt recently so beware of 'free' offers.

As a point of clarification, as I understand it, BCFT didn't enter bankruptcy. It ceased to trade, reimbursing impacted parties, including cadets.

spitfirejock
14th Nov 2022, 22:24
As a point of clarification, as I understand it, BCFT didn't enter bankruptcy. It ceased to trade, reimbursing impacted parties, including cadets.

I did not make any comment about whether they owed money to anyone, I do not know. I have heard 'rumors' (this is a rumor network after all) they do owe several hundred thousand to 'creditors' although I don't know who these might be, students or suppliers?, your guess is as good as mine.

The point was, schools come and go and my concern is more about the slim margins in flight training, BCFT would not have ceased to trade, one assumes, if they were making decent money!

SJ

Robthestudent
30th Nov 2022, 13:22
As I understand it the liquidators were in BCFT two weeks ago.

Rob

nav3
11th May 2023, 18:46
The Commercial Flight Training market is I feel set for some big changes VERY a soon.
With the demise of Tayside in Dundee a few weeks ago, the student funds paid up front to the company, the administrators think totalled around £600,000 and that money will never be returned to the students….they will be lucky to get their training records. Pure bad management even though the owner did invest a chunk of cash.
So who is next on the list? There are a couple of very likely candidates I’m hearing. If you look at the FTA accounts they seem to have just been restated so there seems something wrong there as the figures are really strange. Most of their aircraft are grounded and word is their maintenance operation is unable to get credit I hear. They certainly may have in excess of £3m of debt and undoubtedly insolvent it would seem. Their accounts are very poor and can have only got worse since last year with only the odd one or two aircraft flying. In my opinion insufficient income to sustain it but stranger things have happed and an investor with a few grand might pop up but I doubt it.

Then if you look at the accounts of Leading Edge, they are totally funded by student debt it would seem as they show 2 years ago millions in money they have in deferred income (money taken from students but not used for training them). At the end of March 2022 they were £8.5m in debt and undoubtedly insolvent. Of that £8.5m, £6.2m of it is deferred income from the students. For anyone
not grasping these accountancy terms, that means that IF it went bust today, all the students there would
lose every penny as there are no assets as they are all mortgaged it seems.These people there seem to be taking around £25-£30k from each student IN ADVANCE so that money is always used to fund other things in the company. This is NOT good news. Its also common knowledge that they are really struggling to pay debts on time and this is a big red insolvency flag.
I think anyone throwing money at either of those schools is asking for
trouble. They all ‘talk the talk’ at these Pilot Career shows but NON of them
ring fence or escrow the money students put in. When you put money in you will NEVER get it back.
The CAA I am told do NOT consider the financial solvency and business plans of these Training Schools. Crazy. When more go bust the media will have a field day with this.
I fear the worst for many students over the next few months and I really do think something big is about to happen.
If you are considering commercial training, go and ask the students there where you want to train, ask around, ask the instructors but don’t ask Management as all they want is your money to fund their businesses. Be aware, don’t get hooked on promises and the emotions of becoming a pilot. Look after your money and that of your parents and relatives carefully. Happy Flying Training.

Alex Whittingham
11th May 2023, 22:56
A perceptive post. It is the case that most integrated schools' cash flow relies entirely on new students arriving and paying up front. In other words when you lay down your £100K at the start of the course it is paying for fuel / maintenance / leasing costs for the senior courses. When this stutters...bang. School goes bust and every single customer in the training pipeline loses all their money, which is often secured against parents' houses, and the dream ends. The consistent message is do not pay more than a couple of grand or so up front for flying training, which basically means avoid nearly all integrated schools. There are plenty of good modular flight schools that will train you better, for less money, and not take your cash up front.

spitfirejock
12th May 2023, 12:41
I agree with AW, I have the very same perspective. Question for him and all, why is it that so many students continue to fall into the same mindset (trap) despite the many posts on this forum and others advising them not to?

Might we all conclude we are simply wasting our time using this forum to give advice? If Leading Edge really have 6.2 million in student pre-paid funds at their disposal, that is insanity and clear indication sanity has lost the argument. I guess its a bit like politics, if your left wing you don't agree with right wing and vice-versa and there seems nothing we can do to persuade people to change.

As nav3 states, we are likely going to see big changes very soon, and the cycle will start all over again!

My concern is not just the losses students may have to endure, is the harsh fact (and I have posted this before several times), choice is becoming limited, costs are soaring, aircraft, people, fuel, maintenance etc, and the very big schools might be the only ones that can survive reducing choice further making flying elitist again and only accessible to the few based on wealth, like it was in the 70's!

SJ

Alex Whittingham
12th May 2023, 13:20
In my experience it is perfectly possible to start up and run a small/medium flight school but you need to have sufficient working capital, and this has to come in the first place either from industry investers or from the shareholders themselves. The problem is that without any effective regulation it has become the norm for mid-sized flight schools to start up and to continue to operate without adequate working capital, just using students' up-front payments to fund the training of the courses in front of them. It is easy to spot a flight school that does this - they are the ones who do not allow pay-as-you fly. Any ATO that requires up-front payments of any size should be avoided like the plague because they obviously and evidently have cash flow issues, otherwise they simply wouldn't need to do it. They are the last people you should give your life savings to.

Note that of the two ATOs mentioned above, FTA have recently slightly moved away from this model and have launched what they call a 'fair fees' strategy, although even this requires £25000 to be paid before the end of the theory phase, still a lot of money up front.

There will almost certainly be more flight schools following Tayside into liquidation. Credit is getting tighter, the banks less forgiving. Please, please do not pay large sums up front, go and fly somewhere else. Please do look at the accounts on Companies House, you can verify that @nav3's post above is factually correct. The risk is real.

Was talking to Anthony Petteford earlier today. He reminded me that, after a series of similar scandals in Australia, flight schools there were required by CASA to keep student advance payments in escrow. We need that here.

RichardH
12th May 2023, 19:14
Both spitfirejock & Alex raise some very valid points & I agree payments should be made via escrow accounts. If possible pay any money via CREDIT card (not debit) as under section 75 of the UK Consumer Credit Act you have some protection up to £30,000, however not many wannabes will have a £30K limit.

Looking at Companies House accounts can give some idea of what is going on but these can be nearly 18 months old (legally) so don't necessarily give the true current situation, always look at outstanding charges as these lenders will have priority after HMRC should default arise. It is usually actual cash at bank that determines whether a business can continue or not. Rumours of regular late payment to any creditors (including its staff) should have alarm bells ringing (remember Cabair).

Like nav3 I have a big issue with the UK CAA washing it's hands when it comes to a flight school's financially stability, yet it is responsible for appointing 'suitable officers or account holders' - have a read at the May 23 edition of Pilot magazine where the CAA appears to be in breach of it's own regulations regarding a flight school at Halfpenny Green (sorry Wolverhampton International) where several PPL students with upfront payments are left with nothing despite lots of warnings & complaints to CAA.

As sj, Alex & many others including myself have stated on this forum Modular & pay as you go is definitely the safer option.

Question - how do you make a small fortune in aviation?
Answer - start with a large one.

Rob Howarth
17th May 2023, 13:24
The last few posts make dire reading. As an Accountable Manager of a CAA and EASA ATO it is sickening to see (published Companies House accounts) how the ATO mentioned in previous posts has geared its business. On the face of it, nothing short of a ponzi scheme.

Two points that stand out to me;

Firstly, an Accountable Manager (the main post holder within the ATO), in accordance with Part ORA, is responsible for 'the management of all financial and budgetary matters' Therefore, if deemed necessary the regulator should interject. The reality and history shows that this does not happen. It is also required that in accordance with UK Government law that directors hold fiduciary duties of responsibility - this means the company must remain solvent!

Secondly, in my opinion, Pprune is a bit of a dinosaur now a days. Prospective commercial pilots do their research mainly on Instagram. The ATO mentioned above seems to be a master of Instagram marketing and therefore can maintain throughput (and cashflow).

Until the front of the 'machine' (new student intake) dries up, the ATO will continue to pay Peter with Paul. With the industry gathering good traction at present, it will take for a more public medium to have such effect.

nav3
18th May 2023, 21:55
The airfield appears to be privately owned. That IS a fact. Nothing to do with Spanish Government. The Ops building is a 20ft Portacabin.
The previous ops manager was a convicted Venezuelan paedophile who has now disappeared when found out.
They don’t have any maintenance down there I heard and can’t get instructors legally as neither the students OR instructors have Visas. They also are being heavily investigated by the CAA due to 4 major safety incidents now in less than 2 years I’ve got someone who knows of it.
Leading Edge will follow Tayside and that one down South feel very soon I reckon.

Leading Edge owe their students a LOT of money. I heard in their accounts at end March 22 it was over £6m I read somewhere. Must be and other £2m by now. One Spanish student going legal to recover his money. Big fans there and lots of Number 2’s it seems very soon!



The new base is a fairly derelict Spanish airfield with little infrastructure, probably a fairly good deal was done with the local government who will do anything for a drop of investment.

As for the programme, At a minimum with 1000 applicants to this scheme it is likely that Leading Edge will make enough in assessment fees to cover half the programme's cost, take on some others who will likely go whitetail anyway at their own expense and LE haven't really reached far into their pockets at all. Some would say it's more of a lottery.

nav3
18th May 2023, 22:06
Clarification Spitfirejock…….They do NOT HAVE the funds ‘available’. It is a balance sheet creditor……..they have spent/squandered/used……..insert any other word that fits. They ARE MASSIVELY insolvent. Accident waiting to happen and then every month another 15 students hooked by the emotional journey and the skill of the conmen turn up with £30k down payment BEFORE Groundschool and wonder why they’ve gone and lost the lot. 🤷‍♂️
Only happy people are the Directors…..survived to fight another month until the next lot of unsuspecting candidates arrive.

I agree with AW, I have the very same perspective. Question for him and all, why is it that so many students continue to fall into the same mindset (trap) despite the many posts on this forum and others advising them not to?

Might we all conclude we are simply wasting our time using this forum to give advice? If Leading Edge really have 6.2 million in student pre-paid funds at their disposal, that is insanity and clear indication sanity has lost the argument. I guess its a bit like politics, if your left wing you don't agree with right wing and vice-versa and there seems nothing we can do to persuade people to change.

As nav3 states, we are likely going to see big changes very soon, and the cycle will start all over again!

My concern is not just the losses students may have to endure, is the harsh fact (and I have posted this before several times), choice is becoming limited, costs are soaring, aircraft, people, fuel, maintenance etc, and the very big schools might be the only ones that can survive reducing choice further making flying elitist again and only accessible to the few based on wealth, like it was in the 70's!

SJ

Beaker_
19th May 2023, 13:24
Both spitfirejock & Alex raise some very valid points & I agree payments should be made via escrow accounts. If possible pay any money via CREDIT card (not debit) as under section 75 of the UK Consumer Credit Act you have some protection up to £30,000, however not many wannabes will have a £30K limit.

Just to add to this, I believe any claims under section 75 must be raised within 120 days; something to bear in mind when putting down money in advance of a course.

spitfirejock
20th May 2023, 19:36
Some excellent follow points being made here.

Surely now is the time for the UK CAA to be formally asked to review these company's accounts and make some policy changes? The CAA are bound by solvency rules and their own financial people could easily make an appropriate assessment of any ATO. Alex W, any thoughts? Maybe your own group could draft a formal letter requesting a review? If the CAA continue to fail to act, could they be sued? I believe they would have to show their response to any such request publicly, am I wrong?

I strongly believe the industry is better served with large number of smaller schools (hopefully well run by enthusiasts) each of whom would be ecstatic to have 15 students with 30K to spend. I fear we will see the opposite, larger schools taking most of the spoils whilst business is booming and then running away when the market collapses.

We can but try....but I don't think we are being listened to, Rob Howarth is probably right, they are all looking at Instagram!

SJ

Chris the Robot
20th May 2023, 20:43
Wasn't there a flying school on the south coast which, in the 1990's, was told by the CAA to stop accepting new students due to not being economically viable?
​​​​​​
At work I've driven past Hamble a few times recently with colleagues and we discussed the times when student pilots didn't have to worry about losing their money due to their flying school becoming insolvent.

paco
21st May 2023, 05:50
I think you would have trouble suing the CAA since they accept paperwork rather than approving it. On the other hand, since they have ultimate control, as does British Rail over their domain, there could be an argument.

Phil

Alex Whittingham
22nd May 2023, 18:04
The CAA have spent the 15 years since Tony Blair introduced initiatives requiring transparency and accountability in public bodies steadily working around the rules so that they are not accountable and their workings are not transparent. Expect no help from them.

clarkeysntfc
22nd May 2023, 19:41
Few comments on social media suggesting that FTA have ceased trading.

Scott C
22nd May 2023, 21:00
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1170x1485/img_0330_ed5d186fb8fdb0ccd987c3f923231a6ec69937dd.jpeg

Just saw this post on a FaceAche group…

Chris the Robot
22nd May 2023, 21:22
I feel badly for the employees of both flying schools more than anyone else and hope they are able to find alternative employment soon.

As has been said on here and elsewhere, do not pay large sums of money upfront. I've heard it said that at the commercial stage of flying training, keeping a couple of hours in credit with the school may be reasonable to help them cover overheads associated with one's own flying but four-figure sums shouldn't be necessary.

I do wonder whether the UK commercial flying training market has been saturated. There's presumably fewer EU students, would-be pilots saw how the industry suffered during the pandemic, and in the past few years there's been additions to the historic "big three" in terms of integrated training capacity.

Alex Whittingham
22nd May 2023, 21:36
Oddly, the market is really busy with predictions of high levels of hiring. Easyjet for instance, needing another 250 pilots on top of what CAE are contracted to provide, and aiming at the modular market to get proper diversity of applicants. The problem seems to be zombie companies who are having their legacy debt called in now COVID is in the rear view mirror and there are one or two zombie company dominoes still to fall. There's even a case for a good debt-free startup to move into the market. But we do seriously need the CAA to write into the approval regulations "Approval is conditional on the ATO accepting no more than £5K deposit or up-front payment."

Chris the Robot
22nd May 2023, 21:46
It sounds more positive than I'd realised, hopefully easyJet will stay in the market for modular candidates going forward.

gigachad
24th May 2023, 17:15
https://youtu.be/LcUkCtd2iSo based meme 🗿 all these goons should be exposed

spitfirejock
26th May 2023, 12:40
Alex, one of your answers regarding the CAA is basically saying they will do nothing, and your next post contains a really good idea. How many ATO's in your group do you think would get together and write to the CAA with a petition. Indeed, why not instigate a letter to all ATO's and ask them to vote yes or no to the idea?

If an ATO approval was based accepting no more than £5K (or equivalent) deposit or upfront payment, in fairness, maybe add student accounts cannot be more than £10K in credit at any time to allow for operational requirements, I believe it would really make a difference. Furthermore, all ATO advertising and websites would have to clearly state this is a requirement, full transparency and students could breathe Ja huge sigh of relief.

SJ

Alex Whittingham
26th May 2023, 17:09
Yes, we're on it. The industry is full of vested interests, though, so not everyone will agree the wording and we may end up with a letter written by a committee so chances are I'll draft one and some others may choose to sign. The main point is getting something in place preventing advance payments of any size but there are also questions to be asked of the UK CAA who, by law, are required to ensure that ATOs have sufficient funding. As they clearly have not complied with their obligations under the law I can imagine a class action of disaffected students suggesting to m'learned friends that there may be a case for compensation. We appear to be looking at around £3m already, and it may possibly rise to around £10m.

spitfirejock
26th May 2023, 17:43
Alex, great, I look forward to the follow up on this, something has to be done.

I must say I find the statement from the Sean Jacob (FTA) to Flyer quite pathetic....."it's with a very heavy heart" he writes the note, and yet not 2 months ago big press release about their expansion plans and appointment of new heavy hitters to the team (executives from other integrated schools I might add) and the so called 'fairer' way to pay...it was all a smoke screen.

I actually know of a young man who got taken by the BCFT demise and just 2 months ago was offered by FTA a £5K discount if he paid £29K upfront instead of £34K in installments....he paid it all up front of course and has now lost most of it.....any comments from Sean Jacob who can only say he has invested "all he had and has nothing left to give"....what's he looking for, sympathy.

I have even heard comments such as that made by Flyer in the obituary press release "one of the leading UK schools" they state, a local newspaper " a prestigious flight school". The old saying goes "the bigger they are the harder they fall" or in flight training, the more money they take from students. If Leading Edge goes the same way as remarked on this thread, the CAA have to do something.

SJ

GB94
29th Jun 2023, 20:37
Has anyone heard any news recently relating to Tayside? I wonder what the chances are of them finding a buyer. I'm a PPL student and I had just started the Nav stage when they went under. I had £300 in credit so whilst annoying, it's not anywhere near as bad as some students. ACS look like my next best option but I'd be happy to listen to any suggestions...

parkfell
3rd Jul 2023, 07:25
Wasn't there a flying school on the south coast which, in the 1990's, was told by the CAA to stop accepting new students due to not being economically viable?
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At work I've driven past Hamble a few times recently with colleagues and we discussed the times when student pilots didn't have to worry about losing their money due to their flying school becoming insolvent.

The south coast FTO was Seacoats. They were indeed told to stop accepting any more students which of course caused a financial crash due lack of cash flow.
The primary reason for this restriction was a lack of resources, both equipment & staff.

A SE instructor failed the ME flying instructor’s test, much to the annoyance of management who then argued with the examiner.
In those days this initial upgrade test was carried out by CAAFU. At its demise the only asset was a photocopier?

A number of their students transferred to BAeFC Prestwick for a much reduced charge to complete.
The other failure around then was Trent who operated out of Cranfield. Students also transferred to PIK

VariablePitchP
3rd Jul 2023, 09:59
If Leading Edge goes the same way as remarked on this thread, the CAA have to do something.

SJ

I think we’re already past the point they need to do something..!

parkfell
3rd Jul 2023, 22:35
Until you get MPs & Dept of Transport interested, not a great deal will happen.
Without political interest & Ministerial direction nothing will change. CAA need to have a timely industry discussion. Likely to be glacial unless Secretary of State decides otherwise.
Obvious solutions: Escrow account / limit payments in advance / Credit card useable (S75 protection to £30,000) / PAYG