Passengers stuck on plane wing during evacuation

[Alanwsg]

From the BBC ....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-54194947

[Less Hair]

No slides on E-Jet overwing exits? Didn't realize this myself until now. A 737 feels high enough.

[Capt Fathom]

No slides on most (if not all) narrow body overwing exits! If your life is in danger, don’t make a fuss. Just get off!

[ATC Watcher]

The report said flaps on the wings which would have reduced the drop to the ground - which was more than 2m - were not fully deployed due to the speed the aircraft's engines were shut down.
That could explain the difference between certification tests done with manufacturer employees in their 30s having to be jumping 1,3 m . and real life , where flaps cannot be lowered an pax above 65 having to jump 2 m ..:hmm:

[lomapaseo]

Capt Fathom

People freeze upon the immediacy of danger. The only way around this is to provide them an obvious way to get off the wing, or be led by a trained person on the wing with them. Maybe they should start asking the passengers seated alongside the exit if they actually know what to do and are willing to lead the way. Not just help opening the door.

[White Van Driver]

From the report, the E195 requires Flap 5 selection to assist with the pax getting off the wing. Interestingly the report doesn't recommend any changes to ensure sufficient hydraulic power for long enough to achieve this. In this instance it looks like the crew selected Flaps 5, shut the engines down and the flaps never made it to their selected position.

To be fair 1.8m (the legal requirement) is a big drop when you are considering the whole population... elderly people, disabled, children etc. But I guess it's an emergency egress. The other issue seemed to be that they didn't recognise the markings on the wind directing them backwards. Imagine the confusion if it was a dark and stormy night, howling winds and very slippery wing surface. It's also clear the majority had not read the safety briefing card:= - maybe a mandatory quiz before departure for all the pax on evacuation procedures :8

Looking at other popular narrow bodies, the A318/319/320 has overwing exit slides. (A321 doesn't have overwing exits at all)

The 737 has "flaps 40" as one of the evacuation checklist items I believe in order to meet the 1.8m requirement.

[airsound]

It's all in the report! Including the recommendations to EASA and FAA.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f5a01b18fa8f5106c6c425d/ERJ_190-200_LR_G-FBEJ_10-20.pdf

[pzu]

Pity that the Flap 5 position isn’t shown in the report, thus allowing comparison with the Flap 1 position photo

[DaveReidUK]

Presumably the absence of any such recommendation is based on the fact that the checklist requires the flight crew to confirm that the flaps have already travelled to the selected setting.

[Fortissimo]

There is full coverage of CAT evacuation issues in this excellent RAeS specialist paper: www.aerosociety.com/emergency-evacuation-of-commercial-passenger-aeroplanes (https://www.aerosociety.com/publications/specialist-paper-emergency-evacuation-of-commercial-passenger-aeroplanes-second-edition/)

I understand the 1.8m max height requirement originated in the US, which seems a bit arbitrary until you consider that 1.8m= 6ft, which makes it definitely arbitrary rather than science-based in my book. Whatever, it is still a long way to jump, especially if you are small or not in the first flush of youth. It is just like the view of (eg) a 3m or 10m diving board - from the ground/water looking up, jumping appears easy enough, whereas you get a very different perspective looking down from the board itself.

[cossack]

Back in 1998 at Manchester, on a Continental DC10, the port overwing slide only partially inflated forcing passengers back into the cabin to find another exit. Fortunately the fire was in the tail engine and was quickly extinguished.
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/63235.stm)
Report (https://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/dvdfiles/GB/1998-03-08-UK.pdf)

[White Van Driver]

Presumably the absence of any such recommendation is based on the fact that the checklist requires the flight crew to confirm that the flaps have already travelled to the selected setting.
The checklist does not call for that at all.
(I've never flown an embraer, but just going by the checklist as published in the report, Fig.5, Page 17)

[DaveReidUK]

On the same page, Fig 4 entitled "Emergency Evacuation actions from operator’s operations manual" lists "Confirms Flaps 5" as an F/O action.

[ShyTorque]

It seems ironic to survive a rapid descent from 35,000 feet and stop, only to break one’s crown in the last 7 feet or so to terra very firma.

[White Van Driver]

Good point Dave. However the manufacturer says "the normal flow of actions allows enough time for the flaps to reach a position beyond flap 1 and even if this did not occur, the drop to the ground from the flap 1 setting was still within with the maximum of six feet certification requirement", so why would they need the FO to check the flaps had reached the selected position before shutting down the engines?

Also, the report is also unsure of the meaning of "Confirms Flap 5", stating only that it "suggests that this action requires the flight crew to confirm that the flaps have already travelled to flap 5".

DaveReid have you flown the type? (no disrespect if not, just trying to shine some light on type specific operations). Do operators of the type normally teach to wait a few seconds before shutting the engines down and continuing with the evacuation? I would be surprised if they were expecting you to sit on your hands for a few seconds waiting for the flaps.

I was also very surprised to read that the captain reported when practicing RTO/evacuation in the sim that they would normally select Flap 5 when the decision to reject was taken - I've never seen any actions on an RTO that aren't geared towards keeping the aircraft on the runway and stopping as quickly and safely as possible.

Ambiguously written/taught procedures are one of my bugbears, and it just annoys me that this hasn't been cleared up in the recommendations of the report.

[InSoMnIaC]

White Van Driver

if you haven’t flown the aircraft in question, why are you making such bold statements as “the c/l does not call for that at all”. You know that the proper use of a checklist requires training? This includes the study of expanded procedures amongst other things.

[White Van Driver]

You are quite correct about the study of expanded procedures etc. Have you flown the aircraft in question? If so, what do the expanded procedures say? The AAIB didn't mention anything about expanded procedures and left the meaning of the checklist item "Confirm Flaps 5" quite unclear. It seems that there is some ambiguity here and I find that quite frustrating given the importance of clarity in emergency procedures.

[VIKING9]

I wonder what the outcome would be if this was a "pilotless" aircraft, you know, the numpty idea that someone had to do away with pilots......

[DaveReidUK]

The AAIB didn't mention anything about expanded procedures and left the meaning of the checklist item "Confirm Flaps 5" quite unclear.

I would respectfully disagree.

As a general rule, if the meaning of a word in a particular context differs from everyday usage, it should be defined for the user.

"Confirms" isn't so defined, therefore it's reasonable to interpret it as the usual meaning of "to state with assurance that a fact is true".

While neither I, you nor the AAIB can get inside the head(s) of the person(s) who wrote the Actions list, I'd suggest that it's significant that it says, for example:

"Sets thrust levers to idle"

"Sets the passenger seat belt signs to OFF"

but, rather than "Sets Flaps 5", it states "Confirms Flaps 5".

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/526x498/emergency_evacuation_actions_and_call_outs_cbf7551a03c889169 944223beb2dcee4282c1cb4.jpg

[Easy Street]

VIKING9

A computer would have executed the checklist perfectly, waiting for flaps 5 to be indicated before shutting down?

[Han 1st Solo]

I’ve flown this very aircraft from both seats at flybe, it was SOP for the Captain to guard the thrust levers up to V1 so in the event of an RTO it’s the Captain who rejects and takes control (incap aside), as an FO I’d select F5 whilst we were stopping so by the time you stop it should already be set. If I remember correctly (God it’s only been 6 months) the flaps are not part of the Embraer QHR vital actions so although they should of been set it’s quite easy to forget hence the confirmation rather than select. The other reason I believe is if you evacuate after landing then more often than not you’ve already got F5 set so I believe it’s confirm rather than select to prevent the automatic mind set that you have to move the flaps before evacuating.

[White Van Driver]

DaveReid I quite agree with your definition of the word "confirms" but the AAIB doesn't fully agree (use of the word "suggests") and the manufacturer doesn't seem too bothered anyway as flap 1 is enough regardless.

Easy Street, VIKING9 - hehe would said computer have rejected the takeoff and initiated the evacuation at all?

Han 1st Solo thanks for your genuinely knowledgeable input!

I'll just conclude that if it is ambiguous enough to cause this discussion, I believe it should be cleared up in a revision to the QRH or FCTM, but that was not a finding of the report.

I'm going to bow out now, as it seems we are just going around in circles! But thanks for the discourse!

[Alpine Flyer]

It is not Embraer procedure to select flaps 5 during deceleration. It's part of the evacuation checklist only.

Hydraulics are not an issue, the flaps run on AC power. Not much of a difference, though. Once you shut down the engines, they won't move anymore.

If you look at the Embraer QRH procedure (which is in the report right below the Flybe vital items) it only requires to set the lever to 5 and does not ask to wait or check for actual deployment. (In general Embraer manufacturer's procedures cannot be lauded for consistency with normal and abnormal checklists using different naming philosophies and items used every flight referred to by ridiculously long wordings while at the same time not requiring to check a system state but rather if the lever is in the correct position.)

Regarding the position of the trailing edge flaps, there is no difference between flaps 3, 4 and 5 as only the slats move between 3 and 4/5.

It would of course make sense to mark overwing escape routes in day-glow or similar, but airlines seem to loathe painting stuff on planes that reminds passengers of emergencies (like marking exit outlines in light grey which is much less conspicuous to emergency responders than a red frame).

[Alpine Flyer]

VIKING9 - hehe would said computer have rejected the takeoff and initiated the evacuation at all?
I suppose Cabin Crew will get a guarded "smoke observed" button on their panel, next to the "medical emergency" button and the "prepare emergency landing" light..... That whole cabin to flight deck interface is probably unexplored territory on the way to automation as current initiatives are geared to single-pilot cruise rather than pilot-free operations.

[VH DSJ]

White Van Driver

The flaps are electrically powered on the E190/E170, not hydraulically, although shutting down the engines would also shutdown your source of AC power. (The APU is usually not running during take-offs and landings.)

[FlightlessParrot]

DavidReidUK
I know nothing about flying aeroplanes, but purely linguistically there is an ambiguity: does "Confirms Flap 5" mean "confirms that the controls are set for Flap 5" or "confirms that the flaps have actually reached the Flap 5 position"?

It is extraordinarily hard to be unambiguous.

[lomapaseo]

confirm is not a declared order to. It's to confirm that you have thought about it as a reccomended procedure

[Alpine Flyer]

VH DSJ

Even with APU running, it would be shut down immediately after the engines when running through the emergency evacuation checklist.

[neilki]

FlightlessParrot

Even the Airbus itself can't agree between flap lever position and VMax...

[glider]

E-jets E2 have OWE slides 👍🏽

[Alpine Flyer]

Their main landing gear is higher due to larger engines and more tail clearance being required for a longer fuselage.

[TotalBeginner]

Looking at other popular narrow bodies, the A318/319/320 has overwing exit slides. (A321 doesn't have overwing exits at all)

The A321 can have different door configurations. Surely those with 4 overwing self-help exits still have a dual-lane slide that deploys over the wing!?? Even with the double-slotted flaps that's a huge drop!

[DaveReidUK]

The A321 can have different door configurations. Surely those with 4 overwing self-help exits still have a dual-lane slide that deploys over the wing!??

Correct.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/626x522/a321neo_small_cbc0cb2d17b442d9c1e5c603523625be1121ca53.jpg