The US has built and flown a prototype Next Gen fighter...

[West Coast]

https://theaviationist.com/2020/09/15/the-u-s-air-force-has-secretly-built-and-flown-a-full-scale-demonstrator-of-its-next-generation-fighter/

I imagine the voices occasionally heard banging the drum for re-starting the F-22 line will become more distant.

[etudiant]

It says so here... (https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Breaking%20News%2009.15.20&utm_term=Editorial%20-%20Breaking%20News&fbclid=IwAR0SrqD3oTVQSB84UzMFM5pzW9msVq3837c1H-yyc47UODZD-c5hSDK8V2s)

The long pole in fighter development these days appears to be the systems software.
I'd be more impressed if there was some evidence that the USAF had found a way to shorten the 20-30 year interval between the first flight and full software capability.

[ORAC]

So good we had to have the news twice? Of course there well may be more than one out there.......

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/635528-us-next-gen-fighter.html#post10886115

And harking back to 24th Aug.....

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/630387-future-usn-carrier-force-3.html#post10869199

.....The results of the AII program have not been released or even acknowledged by Air Force or defense officials since 2015, but the initiative suggests that one or two X-plane aircraft could be in testing now.......

[Less Hair]

At least manned.

[chopper2004]

Anyhow here is the official skinny

https://www.airforcemag.com/roper-reveals-ngad-has-flown-but-doesnt-share-details/


Might be worth checking news updates section in here as there’s recordings of chatter around the hmm ‘Box’ be it JANet or F-117 or some mystery a/c on trials.

https://dreamlandresort.com

Might be a clue somewhere ..

Anyhow What OEMS are involved in this USAF achievement ....

cheers

[sandiego89]

Very interesting. Wonder who the main contractor was/is for the demonstrator?. LM would seem to be on the list via Skunk-works Palmdale. NG perhaps or Boeing Phantom Works?

[Fonsini]

I confess I’m most interested to hear what engines they have (or perhaps will) put in it.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

There are strong indications of at least two classified, operational types in current US service, so the fact they built and flew NGAD in secret is not really surprising.

[Less Hair]

So where did you find these strong indications please?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I am deliberately not mentioning specifics. But the indications are there if you're looking in the right places.

First example: pilots from a particular community 'disappear' for months at a time. When they come back, they're unable to say where they have been or what they have been doing - i.e. they don't even bother with a cover story. In this particular case, the suspicion is that they are rotating in and out of TDYs to fly an optionally-manned platform. This may well be it: https://theaviationist.com/2014/03/28/mystery-aircraft-over-amarillo/

Second example: I am aware of recruitment into a black programme that is operational in nature and favours those who have been assigned to a small set of specific white world squadrons (i.e. these particular squadrons act as clearing houses into the programme). Recruitment into this programme has been active for a decade or more and these aircrew use cover stories.

[dagenham]

burning on a wall in pakistan ?

[Less Hair]

There is a big budget going into the black world not publicly accounted for. So something must be going on. And companies keep their people busy for something. Weapon systems need successors. This makes more than two programs going on very likely as a pure speculation. Still interesting that this got dropped now and Potus did drop another one recently.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Which one did POTUS drop?

[Less Hair]

Some new nuke sort of thing nobody else seems to have.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/trump-secret-new-weapon-412539

[NutLoose]

I wonder if one of the reasons the F117 have been seen flying recently, what better to hide an aircraft of a similar profile, if indeed it is, by being able to pass off the odd sighting as an F117

[fltlt]

I wonder if one of the reasons the F117 have been seen flying recently, what better to hide an aircraft of a similar profile, if indeed it is, by being able to pass off the odd sighting as an F117

Or does the designation E signify advanced avionics/electronics being tested in an existing platform, the 117 itself perhaps.

[RAFEngO74to09]

New USAF policy announced a few days ago "“Aircraft, satellites, weapon systems and more that are digitally engineered will receive an ‘e’ prefix.”
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2346441/secaf-unveils-new-eseries-classification-in-nod-to-departments-digital-future/fbclid/IwAR0YUclguLumOi0AOqlMP9mzo0V24PvbYNIlQlRZujUM50hQIPbyC73soN o/fbclid/IwAR2l5Im2bJfFyx1iS7aJVUjtzI2gxvOuMEMoA1xCIVzEleqktVINjFIC1d k/

[NutLoose]

What surprises me is the fact that digital engineering appears to be the new way of doing things, I would’ve thought digital engineering would’ve been in the production and development of new aircraft for the last couple of decades.

[tartare]

What surprises me is the fact that digital engineering appears to be the new way of doing things, I would’ve thought digital engineering would’ve been in the production and development of new aircraft for the last couple of decades.

Indeed it has.
But with even more increasing computing power - more resolution - you have the ability to more definitively model computational fluid dynamics, load paths etc.
Means you can have a much more finalised design before you cut metal or autoclave composites.
No doubt it will be a while before we learn - if ever - but the information out at the moment suggests they may have reached a very advanced level of being able to design a `fully' digital airplane.
My non-engineer understanding is that the limitation to date on ultimately designing and test flying a notional design fully inside a digital windtunnel has been the resolution of the voxels allowed by computing power to simulate the fluid flows at sufficiently fine detail.
Perhaps there have been significant advances in that area.
Some one who knows more about this aspect of airframe design may be able to comment.
The same may be true for low observable characteristics.

[NutLoose]

More
The idea that you can design, construct, and test in the digital realm to a degree of fidelity that it is good enough to then leverage advanced rapid prototyping on an aircraft-sized scale to efficiently check that work in the physical world, and then quickly reiterate the process if need be, sounds great. At the same time, it's hard not to remain at least somewhat skeptical while also questioning just how new and revolutionary this concept actually is.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36509/the-air-forces-secret-next-gen-air-dominance-demonstrator-isnt-what-you-think-it-is

[Lyneham Lad]

Now on Flight Global:-

USAF secretly builds and flies next-generation fighter demonstrator (https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/usaf-secretly-builds-and-flies-next-generation-fighter-demonstrator/140183.article)

[Royalistflyer]

What do we make of the Defense News report that the USAF/? has designed, built and test flown a secret prototype fighter in just a year? And what does this mean for our Tempest Team? https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/

[Stitchbitch]

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/635529-us-has-built-flown-prototype-next-gen-fighter.html?highlight=ngad

If they used a 'donor' platform for major components then they could build something fairly rapidly and fly it within the time scales. I imagine It doesn't mean anything to Tempest as that's a UK technology project. The new Euro jet venture however..

[Less Hair]

What has flown seems to be a "demonstrator" not a "prototype".Based on the movements of senior DOD officials, CRS assesses the first flight came on or about August 21, 2020. Some news sources have referred to this event as the first flight of a new fighter, and speculated as to the design and characteristics of such a fighter. However, it is notable that the aircraft was described as a “full-scale flight demonstrator,” not a “prototype.” The former phrase is used to describe an aircraft that is showing off some form of technology and is different from “prototype,” which indicates a more production-representative system.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/IF11659.pdf

[Royalistflyer]

So why is the government seemingly pushing the Tempest project - in public

[Easy Street]

So why is the government seemingly pushing the Tempest project - in public

The House of Commons Library produced a comprehensive overview (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8391/) of the MOD’s Combat Air Strategy (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/combat-air-strategy-an-ambitious-vision-for-the-future) which should explain things for you. Essentially the Tempest initiative is designed to provide a UK-led option at a major investment decision in 2025. It doesn’t say what the other options are likely to be, but I’d imagine that a junior partner role in either SCAF or NGAD would be investigated. I’ve no idea whether either is realistically available, but the investment in Tempest would maximise the competitiveness of UK industry in winning work share should a partnership be possible. Only in the event of an off-the-shelf purchase (more F-35?) would the Tempest investment have been wasted. Investment in UK industry ticks all the current government’s Brexit, regional and levelling-up boxes so I’m not surprised they’re giving it a reasonably high profile.

[Asturias56]

trouble is history shows the UK can't afford to develop anew fighter on its own - in fact post CV19 it may struggle to even afford a major role in a joint development

Can't see the Europeans offering any significant say to us - and the USA ... is the USA..........

Maybe call President Xi?

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/air-force-priorities/2021/02/26/air-force-general-worried-us-wont-field-sixth-gen-fighter-in-time-to-beat-china/

Air Force general worried US won’t field sixth-gen fighter in time to beat China

WASHINGTON — Since September, when the U.S. Air Force disclosed that it had flown a full-scale demonstrator (https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/)of its future fighter, the defense community has been hungry for more details about the Next Generation Air Dominance program (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/2019/09/16/the-us-air-forces-radical-plan-for-a-future-fighter-could-field-a-jet-in-5-years/). And Air Force leaders have been loathe to provide them.

That’s what made unprompted comments by Air Combat Command head Gen. Mark Kelly so surprising during a Feb. 26 roundtable with reporters.

During the event, none of the 20-something journalists gathered ventured to ask Kelly about the NGAD program. But as the session drew to a close, Kelly decided to share his thoughts anyway.

“I for one am confident that the technology and the test points have developed to where NGAD technology will get fielded,” he said. “And I’m confident that the adversaries on the other end of this technology will suffer a very tough day and tough week and tough war. What I don’t know — and we’re working with our great partners — is if our nation will have the courage and the focus to field this capability before someone like the Chinese fields it and uses it against us.”

Kelly declined to comment on how close the Air Force is to fielding NGAD — typical of the mystery surrounding the program.

While much remains unknown about the effort, Air Force leaders have said it’s a “family of systems” (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2016/08/29/air-force-prepares-to-hash-out-future-fighter-requirements/) that could include manned aircraft, drones or other advanced capabilities, rather than a traditional fighter in the mode of the F-16 or F-35.

But it’s unclear how many NGAD demonstrators now exist and which companies manufactured them. Practically every detail about its performance is also classified.

“It’s a keen focus, a keen capability,” Kelly said of NGAD. “We just need to make sure we keep our narrative up and articulate the biggest benefit we’ve had as a nation — to have leading-edge technology ensuring we have air superiority for the nation and the joint force.”

Kelly’s comments may portend that the program is at a turning point where more funding is needed to accelerate its development and fielding timeline.

Lawmakers have been somewhat tepid to the program thus far, funding $904 million of the Air Force’s $1.044 billion request in fiscal 2021. The service previously received $905 million for the program in FY20.

In the FY21 defense policy bill, Congress also mandated that the Pentagon’s independent Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation office conduct a study on Air Force and Navy future fighter programs, (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06/23/congress-has-questions-about-the-air-force-and-navys-next-generation-fighter-programs/) including on NGAD’s technology, cost and business case (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06/09/this-summer-could-be-a-make-or-break-moment-for-the-air-forces-next-fighter-program/).

[chopper2004]

There is a big budget going into the black world not publicly accounted for. So something must be going on. And companies keep their people busy for something. Weapon systems need successors. This makes more than two programs going on very likely as a pure speculation. Still interesting that this got dropped now and Potus did drop another one recently.

Reminds me of Jeff Goldblum‘s character father sarcastically stating costs in earshot of the POTUS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdmH47VNiS4

cheers

[chopper2004]

I am deliberately not mentioning specifics. But the indications are there if you're looking in the right places.

First example: pilots from a particular community 'disappear' for months at a time. When they come back, they're unable to say where they have been or what they have been doing - i.e. they don't even bother with a cover story. In this particular case, the suspicion is that they are rotating in and out of TDYs to fly an optionally-manned platform. This may well be it: https://theaviationist.com/2014/03/28/mystery-aircraft-over-amarillo/

Second example: I am aware of recruitment into a black programme that is operational in nature and favours those who have been assigned to a small set of specific white world squadrons (i.e. these particular squadrons act as clearing houses into the programme). Recruitment into this programme has been active for a decade or more and these aircrew use cover stories.

Ewan,

It would not surprise me regarding your first statement that the particular unit would have some chase trainer such as the one I saw at J-B Andrews Air & Space Expo 2019 (my pic below). And perhaps at a wild-lottery-guess- the aircrews from said below unit potentially have the required skills to fill the prerequisites.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_8207_a92aab88840305cb2bf3c71d7b817d126f8f8a46.jpeg

Secondly (no pun intended) with your second scenario, it begs the question if such a platform has existed for a decade, what are the chances it could be unveiled to the wider aviation community and general public in the next couple of years?

Cheers

[Asturias56]

"I am deliberately not mentioning specifics. But the indications are there if you're looking in the right places."

Well I'm sure the Russians and and the Chinese are also monitoring "the right places" so you might as well tell the rest of us

[Video Mixdown]

"I am deliberately not mentioning specifics. But the indications are there if you're looking in the right places."

Well I'm sure the Russians and and the Chinese are also monitoring "the right places" so you might as well tell the rest of us
Ah - the old ’it’s common knowledge so there’s no harm in telling me’ approach.

[dagenham]

not really its the old post a provocative image with speculation

the talon is from the 509th bomb group - that of enola gay and now the spirit..... so they have a few t-38s as they can't go and fly the b2 every five minutes.

I guess he wants us to go " wow black t-38 then raider must be in service and has been in service " ya da ya da

would have been more interesting with a strategic recon wing t-38 we could have all said aurora lives !

[Asturias56]

Ah - the old ’it’s common knowledge so there’s no harm in telling me’ approach.

well if HE knows and the Russians and the Chinese know why can't the tax payer know as well?

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/s6jYoagXmZE

[sandiego89]

not really its the old post a provocative image with speculation

the talon is from the 509th bomb group - that of enola gay and now the spirit..... so they have a few t-38s as they can't go and fly the b2 every five minutes.

I guess he wants us to go " wow black t-38 then raider must be in service and has been in service " ya da ya da

would have been more interesting with a strategic recon wing t-38 we could have all said aurora lives !

And that T-38 has some secret pod underneath, must be some sort of hush-hush cloaking device or directed energy system for the Raider, maybe an inadvertent exposure of the rumored BAttlefield Gigabyte Gauging and GuidancE system, aka BAGGAGE pod.

[MarcK]

well if HE knows and the Russians and the Chinese know why can't the tax payer know as well?
I waiting for the Revell kit.

True story: Many years ago the Russian Bear was classified information. After a briefing one day, one of the folks was walking home past a hobby shop and saw a kit for the Bear. He bought it and stayed up all night assembling it. the next day he took it to the Pentagon and put it on his desk. It was promptly confiscated and declared a security violation.

[GlobalNav]

I waiting for the Revell kit.

True story: Many years ago the Russian Bear was classified information. After a briefing one day, one of the folks was walking home past a hobby shop and saw a kit for the Bear. He bought it and stayed up all night assembling it. the next day he took it to the Pentagon and put it on his desk. It was promptly confiscated and declared a security violation.

There’s a reason they call it the “Puzzle Palace”, and there are a few pieces missing.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Whatever it is I sincerely hope that they are making a better fist of than the F-35 and KC-46 fandango !

[chopper2004]

not really its the old post a provocative image with speculation

the talon is from the 509th bomb group - that of enola gay and now the spirit..... so they have a few t-38s as they can't go and fly the b2 every five minutes.

I guess he wants us to go " wow black t-38 then raider must be in service and has been in service " ya da ya da

would have been more interesting with a strategic recon wing t-38 we could have all said aurora lives !

Eleven Matt black T-38 assigned to 9th RW at Beale currently AFAIK and if anyone wants to see 9th in Hollywood then look at 1991 sci fi Final Approach with James B Sikking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMJa71nyVEc

cheers

[ORAC]

I wonder what range and payload NGAD has when you see the comment that the F-22 range of “only” 1850nm is to small….

Also note the suggestion of greatly increased F-15EX numbers to rationalise the fleet and replace the F-15E fleet.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05/13/the-f-22-is-going-away-eventually-but-not-before-the-air-force-gets-comfortable-with-its-successor/

The F-22 will go away, eventually. But not before the Air Force gets comfortable with its successor.

WASHINGTON — Top Air Force officials are now convinced the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor lacks the magazine depth and range needed to carry it into the next decade (https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2021/04/12/a-us-air-force-war-game-shows-what-the-service-needs-to-hold-off-or-win-against-china-in-2030/) as the service’s air superiority fighter of choice.

But the exact timing of its retirement will depend on how quickly the Air Force can put its sixth-generation fighter (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/2019/09/16/the-us-air-forces-radical-plan-for-a-future-fighter-could-field-a-jet-in-5-years/) into production, said Lt. Gen. Clinton Hinote, the service’s deputy chief of staff for strategy, integration and requirements.

“By about the 2030 timeframe, you’re talking about a 40-year-old platform [in the F-22], and it’s just not going to be the right tool for the job, especially when we’re talking about defending our friends like Taiwan and Japan and the Philippines against a Chinese threat that grows and grows,” Hinote told Defense News in an exclusive May 13 interview.…..

Hinote spoke with Defense News a day after Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. C.Q. Brown disclosed the service’s upcoming plan to phase out the F-22 and streamline the service’s fighter inventory (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/02/18/the-air-force-is-interested-in-buying-a-budget-conscious-clean-sheet-fighter-to-replace-the-f-16/) to four main fighter variants. Those four aircraft include NGAD, the Lockheed Martin F-35 joint strike fighter, Boeing F-15EX and Lockheed F-16.

“Right now we have seven fighter fleets. My intent is to get down to about four. With that four, what is the right mix?” Brown said at the McAleese and Associates conference on Wednesday…..

Talk of the F-22′s future was conspicuously absent in Brown’s comments, even though the Raptor currently ranks as the Air Force’s second newest fighter and its premier air superiority fighter. Hinote said the F-22′s retirement would be “event-driven” and interwoven with NGAD’s development, occurring closer to the 2030s than in the upcoming fiscal year 2022 budget cycle…..

It’s unclear how close NGAD is to being fielded, but Hinote said it is proceeding ahead of expectations.…..

The F-22′s limitations, Hinote said, include a small fleet size that contributes to high operating costs and low mission capable rates. It has a relatively short-range — only 1,850 nautical miles with two external fuel tanks — and its weapons magazine is small and lacks depth and range.….

Besides NGAD, the Air Force plans on retaining the F-35 — which Brown said will act as the “cornerstone” of the fighter inventory — as well as the F-15EX and F-16.

The F-15EX was initially purchased to replace F-15C/D Eagles that are nearing the end of their service life, but Brown’s disclosure also portends the eventual sunset of the F-15E Strike Eagle as well.

Hinote said that the service is still studying whether it can modify its F-15Es to an EX configuration or whether it will buy new planes from Boeing.…

[Asturias56]

Thanks ORAC - interesting

More range without external tanks, more varied weapons load out means something quite a bit bigger than the F22 or F35. They want more numbers as well so we're talking low development risk (as far as possible)

The obvious answer is to buy more F-15's or rather further development of the F-15. A new build is likely to come even bigger physically. We're heading back towards F-111 territory I think

[Less Hair]

Looks like pacific range requirements are coming up for everything.

[Asturias56]

I think ORAC and other shave posted several US studies showing that with the F-18 (and even worse) the F-35 range limits means the Carriers have to come well into the danger zone to strike at the Chinese mainland now. And having removed the specialist carrier borne tankers they're in an even worse position

[chopper2004]

I think ORAC and other shave posted several US studies showing that with the F-18 (and even worse) the F-35 range limits means the Carriers have to come well into the danger zone to strike at the Chinese mainland now. And having removed the specialist carrier borne tankers they're in an even worse position

Then again with the introduction of the MQ-25 Stingray in the next couple of years will probably change that.

cheers

[etudiant]

I wonder what range and payload NGAD has when you see the comment that the F-22 range of “only” 1850nm is to small….

Also note the suggestion of greatly increased F-15EX numbers to rationalise the fleet and replace the F-15E fleet.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/05/13/the-f-22-is-going-away-eventually-but-not-before-the-air-force-gets-comfortable-with-its-successor/

The F-22 will go away, eventually. But not before the Air Force gets comfortable with its successor.

WASHINGTON — Top Air Force officials are now convinced the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor lacks the magazine depth and range needed to carry it into the next decade (https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2021/04/12/a-us-air-force-war-game-shows-what-the-service-needs-to-hold-off-or-win-against-china-in-2030/) as the service’s air superiority fighter of choice.

But the exact timing of its retirement will depend on how quickly the Air Force can put its sixth-generation fighter (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/2019/09/16/the-us-air-forces-radical-plan-for-a-future-fighter-could-field-a-jet-in-5-years/) into production, said Lt. Gen. Clinton Hinote, the service’s deputy chief of staff for strategy, integration and requirements.

“By about the 2030 timeframe, you’re talking about a 40-year-old platform [in the F-22], and it’s just not going to be the right tool for the job, especially when we’re talking about defending our friends like Taiwan and Japan and the Philippines against a Chinese threat that grows and grows,” Hinote told Defense News in an exclusive May 13 interview.…..

Hinote spoke with Defense News a day after Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. C.Q. Brown disclosed the service’s upcoming plan to phase out the F-22 and streamline the service’s fighter inventory (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/02/18/the-air-force-is-interested-in-buying-a-budget-conscious-clean-sheet-fighter-to-replace-the-f-16/) to four main fighter variants. Those four aircraft include NGAD, the Lockheed Martin F-35 joint strike fighter, Boeing F-15EX and Lockheed F-16.

“Right now we have seven fighter fleets. My intent is to get down to about four. With that four, what is the right mix?” Brown said at the McAleese and Associates conference on Wednesday…..

Talk of the F-22′s future was conspicuously absent in Brown’s comments, even though the Raptor currently ranks as the Air Force’s second newest fighter and its premier air superiority fighter. Hinote said the F-22′s retirement would be “event-driven” and interwoven with NGAD’s development, occurring closer to the 2030s than in the upcoming fiscal year 2022 budget cycle…..

It’s unclear how close NGAD is to being fielded, but Hinote said it is proceeding ahead of expectations.…..

The F-22′s limitations, Hinote said, include a small fleet size that contributes to high operating costs and low mission capable rates. It has a relatively short-range — only 1,850 nautical miles with two external fuel tanks — and its weapons magazine is small and lacks depth and range.….

Besides NGAD, the Air Force plans on retaining the F-35 — which Brown said will act as the “cornerstone” of the fighter inventory — as well as the F-15EX and F-16.

The F-15EX was initially purchased to replace F-15C/D Eagles that are nearing the end of their service life, but Brown’s disclosure also portends the eventual sunset of the F-15E Strike Eagle as well.

Hinote said that the service is still studying whether it can modify its F-15Es to an EX configuration or whether it will buy new planes from Boeing.…

Seems like angels on the head of a pin style debates.
Magazine depth an issue? What does that mean, other than in a drone rich environment, one runs out of bullets faster than one runs out of targets.
So poor target recognition is the core issue and adding another dozen zillion dollar bvr missiles will not fix the problem.
Admittedly, it may be that all the drones carry nuclear warheads, an increasingly attractive cheap solution.
Has anyone done serious war games with that kind of stuff? I've no idea what one would/could do under those conditions.

[petit plateau]

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/air-force-priorities/2021/02/26/air-force-general-worried-us-wont-field-sixth-gen-fighter-in-time-to-beat-china/

"Kelly’s comments may portend that the program is at a turning point where more funding is needed to accelerate its development and fielding timeline. Lawmakers have been somewhat tepid to the program thus far, funding $904 million of the Air Force’s $1.044 billion request in fiscal 2021. The service previously received $905 million for the program in FY20."

If you take an aircraft fleet that is generally very cash-consumptive in the latter half of its (long) lifes, and progressively replace it with an aircraft fleet that is generally very cash-consumptive in the early years of its (short) lives, you get the mother of all cash squeezes during the transition.

It is no wonder that,

"In the FY21 defense policy bill, Congress also mandated that the Pentagon’s independent Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation office conduct a study on Air Force and Navy future fighter programs, (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06/23/congress-has-questions-about-the-air-force-and-navys-next-generation-fighter-programs/) including on NGAD’s technology, cost and business case (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/06/09/this-summer-could-be-a-make-or-break-moment-for-the-air-forces-next-fighter-program/)."

[West Coast]

Tidbits trickling out

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40621/new-details-emerge-about-secretive-program-that-aims-to-replace-f-22?xid=fbshare&fbclid=IwAR3XDQx-vpBu0eCjU-lYR-HvvujnCirrLiBv_9J7dGFHtMdVOd_MWoJc2vw

[chopper2004]

According to the Drive/War Zone, this new gen fighter is not what we think it is>>

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36509/the-air-forces-secret-next-gen-air-dominance-demonstrator-isnt-what-you-think-it-is

It could be related to the new e-series of USAF a/c comin in such as the T-7 RedHawk is going to be designated as eT-7 or something like that...

Cheers

[chopper2004]

It might be realted to the NGAD or it might not be as strange RCS shapes been seen carted along the way to the Helmsdale RCS range...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42480/mysterious-stealthy-shape-that-resembles-future-fighter-concepts-spotted-at-radar-test-range?fbclid=IwAR02p4JN7RP8XaZlfqln-Z3I_5VZoNbE6E9u-IOF5iefM2r8FGVB4FNqsN4


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x262/helmsdale_rcs_f0ec02526c0ff2b6c239b02ac4802172129542eb.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/454x450/capture_13b6bdc3436fa79ba06a2f9aebc0baf9ca16d7c8.jpg
Cheers

[ORAC]

All guesswork building supposition on supposition. Not a single new fact in it.

[Davef68]

Hmm, bearing in mind how tight security is on most US 'black' projects, a slip like this seems almost deliberate.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/thedewline/status/1440806852560707587?s=21

[ChrisJ800]

Looks upside down to me!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Looks upside down to me!

Sure does…..

[ORAC]

Maybe it’s for the Australians….. ;)

[Ninthace]

Why does it have an attachment for ploughing? Ultra low level?

[West Coast]

I’ve seen many images of RCS evaluation where the vehicle was mounted upside down on the pole, so perhaps it is upside down on purpose.

Just a guess.

https://aviationhumor.net/military-aircraft-upside-down-on-pedestal/

[ORAC]

Gee - ya think? :rolleyes:

[henra]

Looks upside down to me!
Rather not. There seems to be a rather big open area on the upper side in the middle of that thing, possibly the exhaust nozzle (?) (would be an interesting config but would surely help with IR reduction). You would not want to have that on the lower side of an VLO aircraft

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Rather not. There seems to be a rather big open area on the upper side in the middle of that thing, possibly the exhaust nozzle (?) (would be an interesting config but would surely help with IR reduction). You would not want to have that on the lower side of an VLO aircraft

It most definitely looks upside down to me…

[henra]

It most definitely looks upside down to me…
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1413x714/unknownflyingobject_6af27048c5139b870e06152e394f9f60c51c68c6 .jpg
This looks like the Jet nozzle to me (and I fail to find another one on the other side). I would not expect this to be on the lower side of a VLO aircraft.

[iranu]

pic snipped.
This looks like the Jet nozzle to me (and I fail to find another one on the other side). I would not expect this to be on the lower side of a VLO aircraft.I very much doubt it. In order to lift this thing onto the truck and get it onto the RCS pole it will require a crane to do the job. Considering the position is directly opposite the RCS pole flange/connector, which will be somewhere near the centre of gravity, then I suspect it's simply an opening which allows hooking it up to a crane.

BAE Replica was mounted upside down for RCS testing. It also had very small exhausts. Most RCS testing is performed on prototype shapes and models which are not to scale and therefore don't always have the exact same features as a full scale, finished aircraft.

[ORAC]

AW&ST

https://aviationweek.com/shows-events/afa-air-space-cyber-conference/kendall-previews-new-modernization-agenda-us-air-force

Kendall Previews New Modernization Agenda For U.S. Air Force

…..For two decades, the Lockheed F-35A served as the standalone replacement for all F-16s and A-10s, but that is no longer assumed. As an ongoing Fighter Roadmap study continues, the Air Force has already established that a certain number of F-16s and A-10s will remain in the fleet through the 2030s—even as Boeing F-15EXs replace aging F-15Cs and the Next-Generation Air Dominance program replaces the Lockheed F-22……

However, a gap still exists in the fighter force structure for replacing about 600 F-16 Block 40/42/50/52 aircraft as they reach flight-hour limits within or beyond the 2030s. The so-called MR-X, a concept for a clean-sheet, low-end fighter design, is a candidate for replacing those F-16s, Kelly said. Other options may include new Lockheed F-16Vs or a light fighter version of the Boeing T-7A trainer.

“MR-X is basically an acknowledgment of [the fact that] we need affordable capacity,” Kelly said. The roughly 600 F-16s are “going to be our affordable capacity for years to come,” he continued. “Eventually though, like anything that’s metal, [if] you bend it enough times you [will] have to replace it. And that’s where the MR-X discussion and options start to come into play.”….

[tartare]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1413x714/unknownflyingobject_6af27048c5139b870e06152e394f9f60c51c68c6 .jpg
This looks like the Jet nozzle to me (and I fail to find another one on the other side). I would not expect this to be on the lower side of a VLO aircraft.
Pretty odd thrust vector for a jet nozzle though?

[Doors Off]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1413x714/unknownflyingobject_6af27048c5139b870e06152e394f9f60c51c68c6 .jpg
This looks like the Jet nozzle to me (and I fail to find another one on the other side). I would not expect this to be on the lower side of a VLO aircraft.

That’s the feeding hatch for the racing hamsters inside. The thing below is the winged keel to keep it from capsizing at feeding time, when all the hamsters race to the feeding hatch.

[Asturias56]

I thought it's the observation deck for the oldsters...........

[henra]

That’s the feeding hatch for the racing hamsters inside.
Ahhh, Hamster driven! Should provide for an excellent IR Signature. Only question is what they do with the 'poo?! You wouldn't want a too prominent poo signature...

[chopper2004]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/42964/glitzy-northrop-grumman-ad-teases-totally-notional-new-long-range-stealth-fighter?fbclid=IwAR0DTP_ZgaNc3p-VBgyLUx1miukJBzL45LCLoCRgKjFrLCMNTqAMsmWF96c


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=af0y_8_T6gU

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x464/05082b95_ffb8_4dc7_a897_93c260bef950_80ec3f9638d44b00fd9564c b6c770f3c9160cb46.jpeg

[Less Hair]

A bit like this:
https://www.scalemates.com/bg/kits/revell-4580-f-19-stealth-fighter--143703

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force has secretly designed, built and flown at least one prototype of its enigmatic next-generation fighter jet (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/2019/09/16/the-us-air-forces-radical-plan-for-a-future-fighter-could-field-a-jet-in-5-years/), the service’s top acquisition official confirmed to Defense News on Sept. 14.

The development is certain to shock the defense community, which last saw the first flight of an experimental fighter during the battle for the Joint Strike Fighter contract 20 years ago. With the Air Force’s future fighter program still in its infancy, the rollout and successful first flight of a demonstrator was not expected for years.

“We’ve already built and flown a full-scale flight demonstrator in the real world, and we broke records in doing it,” Will Roper told Defense News in an exclusive interview ahead of the Air Force Association’s Air, Space and Cyber Conference (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/air-force-association/). “We are ready to go and build the next-generation aircraft in a way that has never happened before.”

Almost every detail about the aircraft itself will remain a mystery due to the classification of the Next Generation Air Dominance program, the Air Force’s effort for fielding a family of connected air warfare systems that could include fighters, drones and other networked platforms in space or the cyber realm.

Roper declined to comment on how many prototype aircraft have been flown or which defense contractors manufactured them. He wouldn’t say when or where the first flight occurred. And he refused to divulge any aspect of the aircraft’s design — its mission, whether it was uncrewed or optionally crewed, whether it could fly at hypersonic speeds or if it has stealth characteristics.

Those attributes, he said, are beside the point.

The importance, Roper said, is that just a year after the service completed an analysis of alternatives, the Air Force has proven it can use cutting-edge advanced manufacturing techniques to build and test a virtual version of its next fighter — and then move to constructing a full-scale prototype and flying it with mission systems onboard.

“This is not just something that you can apply to things that are simple systems” like Boeing’s T-7 Red Hawk trainer jet, the first Air Force aircraft to be built using the “holy trinity” of digital engineering, agile software development and open architecture, Roper said.

“We’re going after the most complicated systems that have ever been built, and checked all the boxes with this digital technology. In fact, [we’ve] not just checked the boxes, [we’ve] demonstrated something that’s truly magical.”

Now, the Next Generation Air Dominance program, or NGAD, sits at a decision point. Roper declined to say how quickly the Air Force could move its next-gen fighter into production, except to say “pretty fast.” But before the service decides to begin producing a new generation of fighters, it must determine how many aircraft it will commit to buy and when it wants to start purchasing them — all choices that could influence the fiscal 2022 budget.

The program itself has the potential to radically shake up the defense industry. Should the Air Force move to buy NGAD in the near term, it will be adding a challenger to the F-35 and F-15EX programs, potentially putting those programs at risk.……..

[chopper2004]

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force has secretly designed, built and flown at least one prototype of its enigmatic next-generation fighter jet (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/2019/09/16/the-us-air-forces-radical-plan-for-a-future-fighter-could-field-a-jet-in-5-years/), the service’s top acquisition official confirmed to Defense News on Sept. 14.

The development is certain to shock the defense community, which last saw the first flight of an experimental fighter during the battle for the Joint Strike Fighter contract 20 years ago. With the Air Force’s future fighter program still in its infancy, the rollout and successful first flight of a demonstrator was not expected for years.

“We’ve already built and flown a full-scale flight demonstrator in the real world, and we broke records in doing it,” Will Roper told Defense News in an exclusive interview ahead of the Air Force Association’s Air, Space and Cyber Conference (https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/air-force-association/). “We are ready to go and build the next-generation aircraft in a way that has never happened before.”

Almost every detail about the aircraft itself will remain a mystery due to the classification of the Next Generation Air Dominance program, the Air Force’s effort for fielding a family of connected air warfare systems that could include fighters, drones and other networked platforms in space or the cyber realm.

Roper declined to comment on how many prototype aircraft have been flown or which defense contractors manufactured them. He wouldn’t say when or where the first flight occurred. And he refused to divulge any aspect of the aircraft’s design — its mission, whether it was uncrewed or optionally crewed, whether it could fly at hypersonic speeds or if it has stealth characteristics.

Those attributes, he said, are beside the point.

The importance, Roper said, is that just a year after the service completed an analysis of alternatives, the Air Force has proven it can use cutting-edge advanced manufacturing techniques to build and test a virtual version of its next fighter — and then move to constructing a full-scale prototype and flying it with mission systems onboard.

“This is not just something that you can apply to things that are simple systems” like Boeing’s T-7 Red Hawk trainer jet, the first Air Force aircraft to be built using the “holy trinity” of digital engineering, agile software development and open architecture, Roper said.

“We’re going after the most complicated systems that have ever been built, and checked all the boxes with this digital technology. In fact, [we’ve] not just checked the boxes, [we’ve] demonstrated something that’s truly magical.”

Now, the Next Generation Air Dominance program, or NGAD, sits at a decision point. Roper declined to say how quickly the Air Force could move its next-gen fighter into production, except to say “pretty fast.” But before the service decides to begin producing a new generation of fighters, it must determine how many aircraft it will commit to buy and when it wants to start purchasing them — all choices that could influence the fiscal 2022 budget.

The program itself has the potential to radically shake up the defense industry. Should the Air Force move to buy NGAD in the near term, it will be adding a challenger to the F-35 and F-15EX programs, potentially putting those programs at risk.……..

looks like Air Force will utilize

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a35193710/air-force-secret-new-fighter-jet-digital-engineering/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_pop&utm_medium=email&date=012522&utm_campaign=nl26467846&utm_term=AAA%20--%20High%20Minus%20Dormant%20and%2090%20Day%20Non%20Openers

[chopper2004]

This cannot be it can it? Lol

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44057/mysterious-aircraft-spotted-at-area-51-in-unprecedented-satellite-image?fbclid=IwAR0WnSCl_rsgtNosC6yFmVkRNiWKIKaTTi2G-n2q4jl3MzBOEnpFd2xeRoQ
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/f3356d10_72ec_44e8_be16_3910990e58a1_30366f84c1d233384cf55c5 76a4da8e8f9696c8f.jpeg

Cheers

[Lonewolf_50]

One wonders if, this program being such a big secret, they would ever taxi out during the day time.
USAF is generally aware of how much overhead surveillance is floating around up there ... or maybe someone messed up.

[unmanned_droid]

What an odd thing.

Looks to me like a bellows type structure with a clear roof for light and opaque sides for security. Potentially on a rolling structure for moving entire projects around with some amount of obscurity. I can imagine such a thing inside hangars with multiple projects that don't want watchers. You can get similar things for cars - including inflatable cocoons for controlled atmosphere, however they are not mobile.

I have to assume that USAF know what's overhead that airfield every moment of the day, so I then have to assume that this was a deliberate act to send a message.

The other thought I had was that the aircraft had somehow become immobile after leaving the hangar (from tyres to system to engine problems I suppose) and required a cover to protect against the elements until it could be recovered. Presumably skin materials could be very delicate. There is also still the point of being obscured from overlooking vantage points by guys who go out with telescopes attached to their cameras.

[henra]

This cannot be it can it? Lol

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44057/mysterious-aircraft-spotted-at-area-51-in-unprecedented-satellite-image?fbclid=IwAR0WnSCl_rsgtNosC6yFmVkRNiWKIKaTTi2G-n2q4jl3MzBOEnpFd2xeRoQ
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/f3356d10_72ec_44e8_be16_3910990e58a1_30366f84c1d233384cf55c5 76a4da8e8f9696c8f.jpeg

Cheers
Roughly measuring wing span against the width of the taxiway on Google Earth I end up with a wing span of around 13m and a length of approx.15m.
That would fall in line with somewhat compact regular Fighter size. More F-35ish than F-22ish. But very reasonable for a Fighter Aircraft. As it appears no real vertical tails (just 'winglets'), thus a design with seemingly high focus on Stealth. Consequently, I would not completely rule out that we are seeing something related to NGAD. However, strange that they would be moving it in an area of high interest (and thus surely excellent coverage from space) during daylight times.

[ORAC]

It’s not a single fighter program, it’s a system program including unmanned Skyborg wingmen.

Looks reminiscent of the Air Force Research Lab concept drawing. Supposed to be 2-3 prototypes from different companies flying….

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2440755/aflcmc-awards-contract-for-skyborg-prototypes/

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/05/20/more-than-one-company-could-get-cash-to-build-the-air-forces-ai-equipped-skyborg-drone/


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x576/image_04af9008811c34b97cb489908a8fd8eb617bff3b.jpeg

[chopper2004]

It’s not a single fighter program, it’s a system program including unmanned Skyborg wingmen.

Looks reminiscent of the Air Force Research Lab concept drawing. Supposed to be 2-3 prototypes from different companies flying….

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/2440755/aflcmc-awards-contract-for-skyborg-prototypes/

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/05/20/more-than-one-company-could-get-cash-to-build-the-air-forces-ai-equipped-skyborg-drone/


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x576/image_04af9008811c34b97cb489908a8fd8eb617bff3b.jpeg

You might be right ….and the plot thickens

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a34148871/air-force-secret-new-fighter-jet-speculation/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_pop&utm_medium=email&date=020922&utm_campaign=nl26631127&utm_term=AAA%20--%20High%20Minus%20Dormant%20and%2090%20Day%20Non%20Openers

Cheers

[tdracer]

Something that bothers me about the 'Skyborg' or 'Loyal Wingman'...
The F35 is a single seat fighter - one would think the pilot has a pretty much full time job with their own aircraft. So who's in control of the 'wingmen' - someone on the ground? Seems to me the concept might be better suited to a 2-seater - where a weapons officer type could give basic instructions to the wingmen (which presumably would be semi-autonomous) such as 'attack that bogie' or 'bomb that ground target'.

[unmanned_droid]

Something that bothers me about the 'Skyborg' or 'Loyal Wingman'...
The F35 is a single seat fighter - one would think the pilot has a pretty much full time job with their own aircraft. So who's in control of the 'wingmen' - someone on the ground? Seems to me the concept might be better suited to a 2-seater - where a weapons officer type could give basic instructions to the wingmen (which presumably would be semi-autonomous) such as 'attack that bogie' or 'bomb that ground target'.

I disagree that, today, the job of flying the aircraft is task saturating in near cruise conditions. The radios can get very busy, true, but the pilot has time. With loyal wingmen they have some high level instructions and off they go - the pilot isn't doing much more than that - think of them as offboard munitions carriers. The can do more than that, but you get my drift. The loyal wingman can work within its parameter set (presumably this can have a range of values planned in on the ground) on its own and report back in. It might be as simple as a HOTAS switch or voice command to say 'engage this target' and off the loyal wingman goes. The F-35 will stand back a bit and be evasive whilst the wingman rush up front and do their assigned task. The wingman may also be able to automatically do tasks such as intercept an incoming aircraft if it meets threat parameters.

The thought 'back in the day' was that you needed a WSO to manage the drones you're dragging along, and then it was tested and found that a pilot could manage 3 to 4 in the right circumstances (and I'm talking back in like 2005 I was told this by someone I believe to be reliable).

It's certainly a new approach so I think some ways of work will change.

[ORAC]

Gulp…..


https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/04/28/future-ngad-fighter-jets-could-cost-hundreds-of-millions-apiece/

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force’s secretive NGAD future fighter program could be the most expensive aircraft program in history, with each piloted, sixth-generation aircraft expected to cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

When asked about the price tag for NGAD during a Wednesday appearance before the House Armed Services Committee, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall did not specify exactly how much an individual aircraft could cost, but said the service was talking about “multiple” hundreds of millions.

“This is a number that’s going to get your attention,” Kendall said. “It’s going to be an expensive airplane.”……

[Asturias56]

“It’s going to be an expensive airplane.”……

well i don't think we expected to to cost the same as an F-16... but very worrying "multiples" - and no restriction on the number of significant digits I note

Augustine's Law suggests it will be around $ 1Bn per aircraft

[sandiego89]

Gulp indeed ORAC. Can't help but think due to cost it will be a smallish buy, like the F-22 and B-2 ended up, which drove unit costs to eyewatering levels. Making the F-35 look cheap!

[Lonewolf_50]

I am going to go out on a limb here:
If the cost gets that high per unit, I suspect that the program may get axed and my prediction that the F-35 will be the last manned fighter made will come true.

[melmothtw]

That's a prediction that many have made.

[tdracer]

I recall reading something back in my college days - probably in AW&ST - about a future aircraft program (somewhat sarcastic).
This aircraft had amazing capabilities - Mach 10, hugely maneuverable, etc.
Oh, and a single aircraft cost the entire annual defense budget...

[tartare]

Interesting that Northrop has already built six B-21s... on time, on budget and by all accounts to scope.
And I think - inflation adjusted, they're cheaper than their B-2 predecessors original projected per unit cost of around $700m each?
Why isn't the same going to be true of NGAD - which has reportedly already flown in some form, and quote "broken records."?
There's no way decision makers will tolerate a repeat of the JSF boondoggle.

[Less Hair]

It's no surprise that future technology with networking, system of systems approach, custom software, satellites, drones, stealth and such gets more expensive with each generation. Let alone the cost increase when keeping stuff top secret without normal bidding processes. And as had happened before they might hide something else within the budget.
If you look at recent Su versus missiles results it might still be worth it.

[Asturias56]

"Warden confirmed that the B-21's cost will come in under the Air Force's initial ceiling production unit cost of $550 million in 2010 dollars. The last time the Air Force officially re-set the figure was in 2019, she said, when it was “a little over $600 million” average procurement unit cost"

"Why isn't the same going to be true of NGAD - which has reportedly already flown in some form," It's a good point but I suspect the initial version is simply proof of concept of the airframe - all the interesting (and expensive) stuff still has to be developed, stuck on and made to work

[tartare]

I do wonder how much of the cost is added admin, classification, reporting, analysis etc.
I.e. nothing to do with hard and sharp engineering and innovation.
Interestingly, do we know yet which contractor is taking the lead on developing the thing - I am assuming it'll be the Skunks - given fighters are not in Northrop's recent DNA?
Point noted r/e the airframe.
Have looked at those chrome F-22s and wondered if that's some sort of anti-directed energy coating.
Equally - would NGAD field a terrawatt class laser weapon?
No need for missiles.
But still - even imagining turbojets that can morph to turbofans - an ELINT signature the size of a fly - a laser turret, data links to loyal wingmen etc. and range to cover the South China Sea - several hundreds of millions of US dollars per copy??
Wow.

[Less Hair]

Why laser? Laser brings fighting back from BVR to visual range and to generate the energy you leave a huge IR-signature each shot?

(What happened to the word laser? Why this Autocorrection? Directed energy works)

[Asturias56]

Agreed - any stealth and firing off a terrawatt weapon that could be detected from the Moon isn't a likely match.

"But still - even imagining turbojets that can morph to turbofans - an ELINT signature the size of a fly - a l@ser turret, data links to loyal wingmen etc. and range to cover the South China Sea -"

it's also going to be the size of Hercules with all that on board I'd guess. But as you say - the "soft" costs are likely to be a very large part of the bill - training schemes, a new parts tracking system (they seem to be de-rigeur on new US projects) and all the other nice-to-haves that seem to be attracted to every new design

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/06/01/the-air-forces-next-gen-fighter-has-moved-into-a-critical-new-phase/

The Air Force’s next-gen fighter has moved into a critical new phase

WASHINGTON — The Air Force’s secretive and highly classified Next Generation Air Dominance (https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/) fighter program has started its crucial engineering and manufacturing development phase, Secretary Frank Kendall said Wednesday.

In a discussion at the Heritage Foundation, Kendall said the Air Force began early experimental prototyping on NGAD in 2015, when he was the Pentagon’s top acquisition official….

The technology has continued to progress, he said, and the NGAD (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/03/28/air-force-would-cut-150-aircraft-including-a-10s-buy-fewer-f-35s-in-2023-budget/) effort is now envisioned as a “family of systems” incorporating several elements, including a handful of autonomous drone aircraft accompanying the manned aircraft in formation.

It typically takes the Air Force’s acquisition programs almost seven years to reach initial operating capability from the beginning of the EMD phase. Although the service has already been working on NGAD for about that long, because it just recently started work on the EMD phase, it will still be several more years before the program will reach IOC….

“The clock really didn’t start in 2015; it’s starting roughly now,” Kendall said. “We think we’ll have capability by the end of the decade.”

[tartare]

This also:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/air-forces-next-generation-air-dominance-fighter-program-enters-new-stage
Seems to suggest that a section or flight in future may be one or two crewed jets and the rest loyal wingmen type aircraft.
Also links the chrome Raptors with NGAD... F-22 being used to trial a lot of the technology.

[jolihokistix]

Should be renamed ‘Exponential Generation Air Dominance’, or E-GAD.

[Lonewolf_50]

Why laser? Laser brings fighting back from BVR to visual range and to generate the energy you leave a huge IR-signature each shot?

(What happened to the word laser? Why this Autocorrection? Directed energy works) Laser attacks on civil aircraft/airliners are something that the PPRuNe community is very much against, and a decision was made long before I joined here to not promote word searches hitting PPRuNe with laser for a reason. I'll see if I can dig up an old discussion on that, but it's a decision made by the site owners / Powers That Be a long time ago.

[etudiant]

[QUOTE=ORAC;11239336]https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/06/01/the-air-forces-next-gen-fighter-has-moved-into-a-critical-new-phase/

The Air Force’s next-gen fighter has moved into a critical new phase

Kendall said the Air Force began early experimental prototyping on NGAD in 2015,

The NGAD (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/03/28/air-force-would-cut-150-aircraft-including-a-10s-buy-fewer-f-35s-in-2023-budget/) effort is now envisioned as a “family of systems” incorporating several elements, including a handful of autonomous drone aircraft accompanying the manned aircraft in formation.

Has a 'family of systems' ever resulted in anything really world beating?
When responsibility is diffused across a 'family' of products, none really work well, as everyone expects the other elements to make up for the individual deficiencies.

[chopper2004]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/new-next-generation-air-dominance-fighter-renderings-from-lockheed?fbclid=IwAR3lTl3KJxH1yunnVYIqnTXRLJKYjeXuLhhGYZyM8v uSTARk7Sj93bD17dg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1079/312337724_10160813207131490_5382864737309338406_n_15fffa4cbc 14f1b5514eecfc5d82b16ec55bb03c.jpg


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x837/312572217_10160812994686490_8033373065880893678_n_bf8e116790 4bdd2549f27ff44fce4cb7c545e8bb.jpg

[unmanned_droid]

TRL3-4 is basically 'is it technically feasible to do this'.

Good few years to get past TRL6 with something like this.

[Buster Hyman]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/new-next-generation-air-dominance-fighter-renderings-from-lockheed?fbclid=IwAR3lTl3KJxH1yunnVYIqnTXRLJKYjeXuLhhGYZyM8v uSTARk7Sj93bD17dg

Could the LMXT be designed as the 'Mothership' for the drone versions? Just looks like it's designed to do more than ferry fuel & punters.

[chopper2004]

I am deliberately not mentioning specifics. But the indications are there if you're looking in the right places.

First example: pilots from a particular community 'disappear' for months at a time. When they come back, they're unable to say where they have been or what they have been doing - i.e. they don't even bother with a cover story. In this particular case, the suspicion is that they are rotating in and out of TDYs to fly an optionally-manned platform. This may well be it: https://theaviationist.com/2014/03/28/mystery-aircraft-over-amarillo/

Second example: I am aware of recruitment into a black programme that is operational in nature and favours those who have been assigned to a small set of specific white world squadrons (i.e. these particular squadrons act as clearing houses into the programme). Recruitment into this programme has been active for a decade or more and these aircrew use cover stories.

First example link and you may be right in lieu of fridays unveiling

https://scontent-lcy1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/317933976_5633365603409546_1805217517358230533_n.jpg?_nc_cat =111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=NHI3rJWyCcIAX-Ov027&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-2.xx&oh=00_AfDWlh4g_pbxW_7OXAD9Q9XhqNw8e56Ff-UMBTzqsCKb-g&oe=63920115

subtle difference in planfom, then again we have not seen what the B-21 wing looks like from top or side, just the front now.

cheers

[chopper2004]

Anyone seen this recent N-G video and the mystery single seat CGI r that was in their previous company video is a tad clearer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWfqUjLdD5Q

[chopper2004]

Hmmmm interesting

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/piecing-together-the-ngad-puzzle/

cheers

[unmanned_droid]

Some parts of the article are not ageing well. The T-7 is proving Roper wrong in terms of digital design - and he was gone as soon as they could get him moved along.

[sandiego89]

Hmmmm interesting

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/piecing-together-the-ngad-puzzle/

cheers

Interesting indeed, the whole paradigm shift to building 50-100 new aircraft and then shifting to a new design every 8 years or so is a major change. Not sure the congressional fat cats and unions will like it, but seems to have some merit. Perhaps more like the 1950's when things were shifting so fast that aircraft didn't have long service lives.

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/05/18/us-air-force-plans-to-award-next-generation-air-dominance-deal-in-2024/

US Air Force plans to award Next Generation Air Dominance deal in 2024

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force plans to award a contract for its Next Generation Air Dominance platform (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/09/27/the-air-force-wants-to-start-delivering-ngad-by-2030-can-it-be-done/) in 2024.

The service said in a Thursday release that it sent industry a classified solicitation for an engineering and manufacturing development contract for the secretive and highly classified NGAD program (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/06/01/the-air-forces-next-gen-fighter-has-moved-into-a-critical-new-phase/).

The release of this solicitation formally begins the process of selecting a contractor to build the Air Force’s next advanced fighter system, which will replace the F-22 Raptor. The solicitation came with requirements the Air Force expects companies to include in their NGAD designs.

However, this solicitation and source-selection process does not include the drone wingmen the Air Force refers to as collaborative combat aircraft, the service said….

Kendall and other service officials said last year they hope to start fielding the crewed component of NGAD by the end of the decade, with collaborative combat aircraft possibly arriving first.

In June 2022, Kendall raised eyebrows when he said at a Heritage Foundation event that the service had “now started on the EMD program to do the development aircraft that we’re going to take into production” — a remark that some took to mean NGAD was already in the engineering and manufacturing development stage.

Kendall later walked back those comments, explaining that he was using the term EMD in a colloquial sense. He said NGAD was still being designed and had not yet gone through the Milestone B review process.

Milestone B marks the point where a program’s technology maturation phase finishes and an acquisition program formally starts in which the service takes its preliminary design and focuses on system integration, manufacturing processes and other details ahead of production.

Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek said in an email to Defense News that when the source-selection process finishes, NGAD will go to the service’s top acquisition official — who is now Andrew Hunter — for the Milestone B decision to award the EMD contract to the winning company.

Boeing, Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin have expressed interest in pursuing the Air Force’s NGAD contract.

It’s unclear how much the contact would be worth, but Kendall told lawmakers in an April 2022 hearing that each aircraft could cost “multiple” hundreds of millions of dollars (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/04/28/future-ngad-fighter-jets-could-cost-hundreds-of-millions-apiece/), though he did not get specific about the potential price tag.

[chopper2004]

Here is a video by pilotphotog channel theorising about what NGAD characteristics should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKu3fSnYuBQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCsGNghQlQA

cheers

[chopper2004]

Check out latest L-M video and the last sequence @0:26 please

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-x8V75rc14


And there are three demonstrators for NGAD supposedly

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/next-generation-air-dominance-fighter-program-involves-three-demonstrators-report

plus at Edwards Combined Test Force has stood up.

https://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Article-View/Article/3445807/edwards-stands-up-air-dominance-combined-test-force-for-next-generation-testing/

cheers

[chopper2004]

https://theaviationist.com/2024/02/13/ngap/?fbclid=IwAR0VmhHttQX2qZ7qld2Q4Y_i2_oXAyMnNYl5kolGq6D2YWJm3y QNK0ddrlw

cheers