How do you keep pushing?

[plotplot]

General Aviation. The missed birthdays. Missed weddings. Missed funerals. Missed Christmases. The failed relationships due to long distance. The missing my siblings' kids grow up. The putting off of having a family of my own. The crappy share-houses. The below-award conditions. The sacrifices we all make are really starting to get to me on a mental level, to the point where I struggle to see how it is even worth it any more.

Being at the mercy the employer, with the attitude of, "from xx:xx AM - xx:xx PM, we own your arse. Another flight's just come in and if your duty says you can do it then you'll f@#*ing do it, we don't care if you've just done an IPC and have been awake since 03:45am". Having to be ready to bend over and take it whenever we're told by people with less than a high school education, and then be grateful for the privilege, smile and say, "Thank you may I please have another". The not knowing what hours you'll be working from one day to the next, destroying any chance of having any sort of routine in your life. Which then leads to the sleep deprivation. Going to bed and waking up at all different times every single day, decimating any remnant of a healthy sleeping pattern. This takes a mental toll. But don't you dare say you can't fly due to fatigue. This is what you signed up for. So get back out on the tarmac and make sure you smile for the f%&*ing customer on your way past.

After four years of slogging away in GA, I've hit a wall and I don't know if I want to be a part of this profession anymore. Four years may not be much, and we did know what we were signing up for (to a point), but we also didn't think we'd be signing up for a decade+ of it. And I have nearly 2500TT and 1000 multi under me, I can't even begin to fathom the long road ahead for someone just starting out.

I know this probably comes off as ungrateful and I don't wish to insult anyone in a time of worldwide lay-offs and redundancies, but please save your "pull your head out of your arse" comments. I'm not just here to have a whinge, I just don't know if I have it in me to keep going.

I've been lucky enough to be one of the ones in GA who have come through this relatively unscathed so far. In a time where we were all experiencing rapid progression, covid has stopped us all in our tracks and blown out our timeline from 2-4 years in GA to possibly 10+, and I don't believe that to be an exaggeration.

"Well you've never experienced a downturn so get used to it". True, but this is like no other downturn before it. If anything I'd argue people are underestimating how long it's going to take before all the senior guys in GA that were ready to move on see any light at the end of the tunnel. I think the ones that are underestimating it are lying to themselves, because what other option is there. To accept that your career will now stagnate for the next several years whilst you're stuck on the bottom rung is a tough pill to swallow.

On top of all of that, I just don't love the flying like I used to. It doesn't put a smile on my face any more. There's no pride in your work at this level. It has become just a job way quicker than I ever thought it would. I'm starting to dread getting out of bed, wondering what flavour of **** I'm going to get served up today.

"Well at least you're flying you ungrateful prick". At what cost, though. Because right now it's feeling like it's at the price of my mental health and well-being. If I could be sure that I would look back in ten years and still think all those years spent away from loved ones and being treated like dirt was all worth it, then I'd push on. But I don't know that I will. Staring down the barrel of potentially many more years of these sacrifices is soul-destroying. I Guess as I get older I'm starting to see what's more important.

How do you keep pushing when you don't even know what you're working towards any more?

[Andy_G]

Well, going from the known to the unknown is always a hard thing, especially in the example of going from flying for a job to something completly different. Ive had two large-ish career changes and the lesson is the punishing drop in renumeration initially. However, taking what you know and are good at, and then building upon that may just give you a leg-up into another element of your original chosen carrer path. Remember when you were in flight training and optimistic? Here is an example job recently released at AMSA, its got some fairly decent requirements but its more about the concept of where or what you could potentially find yourself heading into, in the near future.

https://www.seek.com.au/job/50517926?type=standout#searchRequestToken=7771af78-d136-43a1-8b91-0eed1786b96d

The operational environment, as opposed to the business environment (acheiving the mission vs making money for somebody else) has stark differences and may be of intrest to you. I mean, it must be healthy to be interested in your work- right?
Ive got a couple of mates that ended up in rotary wing SAR and have always seemed to be pretty happy with what they do. I suppose thats because they are helping people who are having a really bad day.

[lucille]

You forgot to add the romance and prestige of the profession and not to mention your eye watering high salary! :) and flying well maintained brand new aircraft is what really keeps you motivated. :):)

Yours is a path well trodden. On a serious note, now is a good time exit the industry for 4-6 years. Go to Uni, do a useful STEM degree which promises good employment prospects. Graduate and try working in a different career - you may love it or like me you may hate it and go back to flying all the richer for that experience. In 4-6 years the hiring boom should resume.

Do something positive, burning holes in the sky while accumulating another couple of thousand hours isn’t going to change your employment prospects.

[Capt Fathom]

plotplot,
That’s the Aviation Industry for you. (And many others).
Maybe a 9-5 office job would be more suitable? Just saying.

[plotplot]

plotplot,
That’s the Aviation Industry for you. (And many others).
Maybe a 9-5 office job would be more suitable? Just saying.
Well maybe just don't say next time. Your underlying tone of "suck it up princess" adds nothing.

[Capt Fathom]

No. Just pointing out it’s not just the domain of aviation with those conditions.
If it’s not something you enjoy, then why do it?

[Sunfish]

STEM, law, ongoing, programming. What a waste of time! All you are doing is setting yourself up to be another employee. Do you think engineers accountants and lawyers don’t get handed the same #a$@% sandwiches by their employers?

Invest in learning a trade or become an intern and learn business skills like property development. Stay away from “professions” they are a waste of time as far as satisfaction is concerned. Learn to do something nobody else can do is a better proposition.

[plotplot]

No. Just pointing out it’s not just the domain of aviation with those conditions.
If it’s not something you enjoy, then why do it?
Fair enough. Sorry.

[Noeyedear]

PlotPlot, don't be put off. Its definitely a s#it sandwich, but have a think about why you came into the industry and what you hoped to get out of it.

Are you prepared to adjust the original goal (and timeline) now the rose coloured glasses are off? Eating a s#it sandwich is like eating an elephant, just take one manageable bite at a time. It can be done, but its entirely your call.

I wish you well.

[Bengerman]

You will spend an enormous amount of your life at work, if you enjoy it then you have hit at least a portion of the motherlode. If you don't enjoy your work then it is definitely worth considering whether it is the right job for you.

[Seaking74]

If you can (fairly) comfortably admit that your mental health is suffering then I’d question whether you should seek alternative employment. Not easy in these current times but you yourself, and those who love you, are more important than any job.

[catseye]

Well here's some people reskilling in the interim. https://www.queenslandcountrylife.com.au/story/6924070/pilots-prepare-to-take-off-in-whole-new-field/?cs=4713

[geeup]

You are in the wrong occupation because those problems aren’t limited to GA.

Reality vs flying school brochure vs public perception.

If you think getting into a airline means steady hours, good roster, home for special events, easy relationships, bankers hours, fast progression, floating around the world, ops managers / company not pressuring you... you are wrong

[kingRB]

You are in the wrong occupation because those problems aren’t limited to GA.

Reality vs flying school brochure vs public perception.

If you think getting into a airline means steady hours, good roster, home for special events, easy relationships, bankers hours, fast progression, floating around the world, ops managers / company not pressuring you... you are wrong

this.


On top of all of that, I just don't love the flying like I used to. It doesn't put a smile on my face any more. There's no pride in your work at this level. It has become just a job way quicker than I ever thought it would. I'm starting to dread getting out of bed, wondering what flavour of **** I'm going to get served up today.

"Well at least you're flying you ungrateful prick". At what cost, though. Because right now it's feeling like it's at the price of my mental health and well-being. If I could be sure that I would look back in ten years and still think all those years spent away from loved ones and being treated like dirt was all worth it, then I'd push on. But I don't know that I will. Staring down the barrel of potentially many more years of these sacrifices is soul-destroying. I Guess as I get older I'm starting to see what's more important.


Sounds to me like you've answered your own question already. If you think you're going to find inspiration to "keep pushing" from comments on an internet forum I think you are sorely mistaken. When you weigh up all the bull**** you have to put up with for this career,
if you don't still sit there every now and again with a smile on your face and think to yourself "this is the best job in the world", then i'd say it's time to move on. Life's too short to be that miserable.

[Left 270]

Not advice just a few thoughts.

There’s never been a better time to leave Aviation. If you’re not happy in the seat you’re in now you certainly won’t be happy there in 5 years.
People come back to Aviation after extended breaks regularly so although not easy if one is to find themselves with a burning desire to return in good times it is possible, on the other hand people leave the industry regularly to find that in-fact the grass can be greener on the other side.

Don’t underestimate the importance of time with family, friends and a predictable lifestyle. For me personally, once it did become a job, the importance moved from gaining experience/progression/finical gain to improving the quality of the job, sometimes they were the same thing sometimes they weren’t.

Personal circumstances will dictate how people handle the next few years, if you’re still in the bottom of GA ‘living the dream’ and you’re not in your early 20s it could be worthwhile walking away but, sitting in a single pilot TP in your 30’s might not be too bad, there’s no right or wrong answer to this, you may just have had a gut full of living in the locations available outside of the airlines and want to improve your lifestyle.
For those that are ‘hating it’, I wouldn’t hold on to hard as one poster mentioned above, the career does improve but not that much.

[Bell Man]

Some good advice being suggested. Get out for a few years and up skill yourself in something you like, then return to flying when the environment gets better.

Make sure your happy in what ever you choose to do!

[bluesideoops]

I went to University after school and spent 10 years in non-aviation work, then did my CPL and worked in GA for 7 years after training and worked for several different operators. What I learned from this experience is that what you describe is not unique to aviation and that the it's not the industry per-se that's at fault but rather the individual operators. I worked for the good, the bad and the ugly in both aviation and non-aviation and the problem are the individual owners/operators and this exists outside of aviation just as much as it does inside. With Covid-19 around the less scrupulous operators will take further advantage by using the pressure to push people to do more for less with the constant cloud of 'your lucky to have a job' and 'there are thousands of desperate guys out there that could replace you tomorrow' - if this is the kind of company/boss you work for then its a toxic environment and you should get out, employers like this will kill your dream and spirit stone dead. Lots of good advice above about options as short-medium term solutions. Best of luck.

[Stickshift3000]

At what cost, though. Because right now it's feeling like it's at the price of my mental health and well-being.

I've changed careers 4 times in my life (now in my mid-forties). It's never the easiest option - just sitting unsatisfied in a job is the easiest option - but I've figured out that I need to be interested in my job to stay motivated.

Whenever I've felt that a job is affecting my mental health (and it has!), I know it's time for me to look at other options. And there are plenty of other options, it's entirely up to you to seek them out.

Edit: I'm now unemployed, of my own choosing. Contemplating doing a 6-12 month training course to get my foot in the door of a different industry...

[KRviator]

I gave it away 15 years ago when I saw where things were heading career-wise. Flogging around the bush in a 182 or 206 older than I am, below-award wage offerings and the "shiny-jet syndrome" schedules that have you away at all hours of the day and night.

FWIW, I don't regret leaving flying at all. I got a job that I genuinely enjoy and have been doing that for 15 years. It is still shiftwork, but I now work only 2 weeks out of 6, It has paid for our house, car, and given me enough left over that I can afford an RV that I now fly where I want, when I want. IF that is 500' AGL down Victor 1 or an afternoon whale-watching flight with Mini-Me, that is what flying is about. Not about carting a bunch of ungrateful punters to Bali.

I think aviation is going to get worse before it gets better and if you are not happy now, chances are you won't be when it recovers. I would strongly consider pursuing another passion rather than continue your current path and just "put up with it".

[bringbackthe80s]

I gave it away 15 years ago when I saw where things were heading career-wise. Flogging around the bush in a 182 or 206 older than I am, below-award wage offerings and the "shiny-jet syndrome" schedules that have you away at all hours of the day and night.

FWIW, I don't regret leaving flying at all. I got a job that I genuinely enjoy and have been doing that for 15 years. It is still shiftwork, but I now work only 2 weeks out of 6, It has paid for our house, car, and given me enough left over that I can afford an RV that I now fly where I want, when I want. IF that is 500' AGL down Victor 1 or an afternoon whale-watching flight with Mini-Me, that is what flying is about. Not about carting a bunch of ungrateful punters to Bali.

I think aviation is going to get worse before it gets better and if you are not happy now, chances are you won't be when it recovers. I would strongly consider pursuing another passion rather than continue your current path and just "put up with it".

not realistic. NOT REALISTIC.
For the majority of us, with no backup from family or connections, if I’ve been doing this for almost 2 decades it is not realistic nor fair to expect me to change careers and pay the house along the way.

If it all goes down the drain then so be it, but I’m tired of listening to unrealistic prospects of gold paved roads working in IT or what have you. It is simply not realistic nor fair to 99% of us who’ve been putting too much into this. And should be recognized at least a bit when times are tough.

[finestkind]

Very few well paid careers are 9 to 5. Ranging from driving a mine truck for a reasonable wage, to working your way up the corporate ladder, to having a business all require shift work but the difference is mental stress. What once was a well respected career with good compensation for that time away from home, for that expertise in a professional area, for having decision making abilities that hold life’s in your hands, and shift work is arguably no longer an attractive package. Although driving a truck does not have the kudo’s of being a pilot it does pay the bill’s. You can put up with a lot of **** if that bank balance is bounding ahead or you can put up with a subsistence wage if what you’re doing is what you love and bound out of bed every morning for but seldom do these two meet.

I agree with KingRB. I think you have answered your own question. You have had a gutful. If you are hanging on with the idea of a commercial career it is still possible but I think the days of A or b or C scale Cathay are long gone for any airline. When ANSETT went under and pilot’s were doing other jobs the realization, for quite a few, was I am earning more money doing X without the stress. So is it worthwhile following the dream whereby in 5-10 years time I’ll be earning more than I am bricklaying or should I just stick to bricklaying (weekends at home etc).

Anyway PlotPlot your D and best of luck.

[KRviator]

not realistic. NOT REALISTIC.Depends what you're willing to do. If you have that mindset, then no, it probably isn't. But like I said, I gave flying away for another passion and it has paid off. You aren't going to walk into a $120,000+ job from the cockpit of a 210, but within 12-18 months it is easily achievable. The job I am referring to specifically is train driver. Depending who you work for, once you are out of the initial school it is $65-75,000 a year for an assistant, rising to $123,000+ for a qualified Driver, before overtime. The OT rate is $106/hour for GWA per their enterprise agreement (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/ae503145.pdf). I work part-time (not for them though), averaging 28h/wk, do 2 weeks work (14x12h shifts) and have 4 weeks RDO's and earn $110K. Reckon you'll earn that in the aviation environment today if you are not flying?

If it all goes down the drain then so be it, but I’m tired of listening to unrealistic prospects of gold paved roads working in IT or what have you. It is simply not realistic nor fair to 99% of us who’ve been putting too much into this. And should be recognized at least a bit when times are tough.What should happen, and what does happen, as has been found out many a time, are not always the same. IF you aren't prepared to even consider what is offered, then that's entirely up to you. But there are jobs out there that pay well, even in this economy...Pining for something that is not going to happen is only going to make you more miserable.

[Squawk7700]

There’s no train driving jobs in Victoria right now, because nobody is using public transport!

[Sunfish]

Some people are hung up on the word “professional”. They have an emotional need for status. I grew up in an age when people looked up at professionals with university degrees and looked distastefully at “trades” and tradesmen. It was an understandable but short sighted idea. People assumed that “professionals”, (a) made more money and (b) were happier.

This was and is BS. while I was still a ragged university student, young tradesmen already had their second or third car, were paying off their first house and were thinking of wife and kids. As a professional engineer, I was at least six or seven years behind the kids who were apprenticed and earning at sixteen in terms of establishing an independent lifestyle and my own household. I have NEVER made up that gap and neither have many other professionals. It’s called discounted cash flow - you might pick up a six figure salary as a professional at the peak of your earning powers but that doesn’t make up for the years of relative poverty and stress to achieve it.

Furthermore there is a unique Australian associated problem - income tax. The tax scales don’t have any compensation for risk, investment and the stress involved in earning that big salary at all. You are better off earning less if you can get stable long term perhaps undemanding work rather than trying to make big bucks on the corporate high wire where one slip and....,,

‘’Try and forget the status / power / snobbery angle and find something that is personally satisfying.

I still remember the constant stream of suicides as students jumped off the ming wing when the tension between what they wanted to do and what their parents expected them to do became just too much.

[JRK]

And who says you have to "keep pushing"?
I hope you realised by now, that romantic child dreams do not quite resemble pragmatic adult realities. And if you have to sacrifice so much and scrap the bottom to find motivation to carry on, then perhaps you should do some introspection to see what sort of childhood overhang(s) you need to get rid of.

[Maggie Island]

As a comparison, two extreme ends of the spectrum:

Got a mate who works for a big financier in Sydney CBD. Pre-covid he spent 0700-1700 on weekdays at work before coming home via packed sweaty public transport only to then spend another 3-4 hours at home taking phone calls and replying to emails. Now he just logs on in the morning and works from home until he struggles to stay awake somewhere around 2000-2100. Most of the guys doing his job are in their mid - late 20s, paid around 80-110k a year and are generally miserable in every sense of the word.

Another friend works in the APS. Works for an operationally focussed department that she says is “slightly less boring than the usual APS gig”. Flex time, easy to get leave, been promoted several times etc etc. While the workplace is more or less pleasant it’s an absolute drain on morale if you have any ambition whatsoever. She’s 29, does her weekly 37.5 hours, paid about 70k and screaming to get out of Canberra.

If you were to leave and get a “real” job you can be certain that the grass will only be a different shade of green. Flying a desk can be an unpleasant change for some, so (especially if you’re thinking about uni) maybe try to intern or something. Maybe even do a temp 1/3/6 month gig if possible?

[Clare Prop]

All I can say is, the big decisions, like changing career, often make themselves. Something will happen to help you decide whether to walk away or not. If you really are stuck in a rut then accept that we all are from time to time. That's life, it can be like groundhog day sometimes...trust me, I've been instructing for 30 years!

[deja vu]

Talk about a rock and a hard place. To a certain extent it gets back to what you have experienced before. In my case I had really crappy jobs prior to get into aviation and that kept me going thru GA. Admittedly times were far better then for progress but it still took 17 years on bug smashers with associated conditions before moving to something better. Even then I had to take a 40% pay cut from GA in my first airline job.

I guess you have to look at what is the alternative and at the moment there is not much. Good luck.

[deja vu]

There’s no train driving jobs in Victoria right now, because nobody is using public transport!
Actually they increased the number of services on tram and trains during the 1st phase of lockdown in Victoria. The thinking was the more units out there the less crowded they would be. So yes, not many pax but more trains and trams than ever before. Dan's mates at the TWU are loving the overtime which is all that matters apparently.

[Miles Magister]

PlotPlot,

You are not alone with these feelings of frustration. I actually took the decision to leave work for a couple of years whilst my children were in high school, I was married before starting in this profession, and I made every parents evening, every event and every rugby match. Unfortunately I had to go back to work when my wife had spent most of my savings. But 5 years off made it hard to get back.

In the UK operators are legally required to have a pilot peer support programme so that we can talk to an anonymous mate about exactly what you post. The big airlines have their own programme but most corporate operators use a cooperative system. In the mean time try and join this on line chat if you can,
https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E22AQH-8Hn1t7CbBA/feedshare-shrink_800-alternative/0?e=1603324800&v=beta&t=ZZX3d_8WlZfiIEZ4oqWgM7EgFvFfMmzcDvaVoiFhn1c

MM

[Squawk7700]

Actually they increased the number of services on tram and trains during the 1st phase of lockdown in Victoria. The thinking was the more units out there the less crowded they would be. So yes, not many pax but more trains and trams than ever before. Dan's mates at the TWU are loving the overtime which is all that matters apparently.

Trains are running at 10% of what they were. The car parks are completely empty. Today there was 1 car at my local zone 1 station and I think that car has been sitting there for a week.

[deja vu]

Trains are running at 10% of what they were. The car parks are completely empty. Today there was 1 car at my local zone 1 station and I think that car has been sitting there for a week.
Bit of a drift to be sure. No doubt very few are travelling. My front gate is 15 metres from the terminus of the #6 Tram route. At 9 am this morning there were 5 empty trams banked up waiting their turn to enter the stop to turn around and head off empty to wherever. I have been observing the tram movements for 15 years from my upstairs bedroom, this is not normal. 100 metres from my gate is the Glen Iris train station, my wife travels every weekday on this service. Train schedule unchanged according to her, go figure.

The local train runs every 20 mins at off peak times, so are you suggesting that its now a 200 minute frequency?

[Fokkerdriver]

Your troubles are not limited to GA. I am an airline captain, with a reasonably stable schedule and well paid.

I have loved my job and I am very sad that chances are that I am very soon being made redundant.

Having said that - I live very far from my family and friends now. I have been forced to move every 3-4 years because of the job. I have missed countless of birthdays, important events, holidays and Christmas's during my last 20 years of flying.

Once I came to terms with the fact that I will most probably never fly again - the thought of moving to my home country, buying a house that I am not forced to sell again after a few years, seeing friends in my sparetime instead of just colleagues, and seeing my nephew grow up....just does not sound so bad.

[flightleader]

Plotplot,

Your last sentence is what you have to solve. Are you pushing to pay the bills? For the family? For your own big pilot dream? It seems to me that you feel sacrificing too much currently, expecting a certain career advancement which is now seems diminished. Let’s be honest, everyone’s plan is now spoilt! Mine too.

There is no rush to reach any level in aviation. Every level has it pros and cons. Some jobs make pilots cross the Pond (and 12hrs time zome different) 3 times a month. Some jobs make pilots commute 1.5 days from home to base. Some have to don a polar suit in order to do external walk around. Worthy or not, entirely up to the beholder.

If you have lost interest in flying, go try something else. If you are still employed flying GA, my advice is hang in there. There will be plenty of opportunities to fly something bigger once the tide turns.

Personally, I have been furloughed for more than 6 months and may never go back to fly for current employer. During this period, I most envy those single pilot IFR Youtubers in their single engine turboprops!

Don’t be too hard on yourself and I wish you all the best!:)​​​​​​​

[plotplot]

PlotPlot,

You are not alone with these feelings of frustration. I actually took the decision to leave work for a couple of years whilst my children were in high school, I was married before starting in this profession, and I made every parents evening, every event and every rugby match. Unfortunately I had to go back to work when my wife had spent most of my savings. But 5 years off made it hard to get back.

In the UK operators are legally required to have a pilot peer support programme so that we can talk to an anonymous mate about exactly what you post. The big airlines have their own programme but most corporate operators use a cooperative system. In the mean time try and join this on line chat if you can,
https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E22AQH-8Hn1t7CbBA/feedshare-shrink_800-alternative/0?e=1603324800&v=beta&t=ZZX3d_8WlZfiIEZ4oqWgM7EgFvFfMmzcDvaVoiFhn1c

MM

Miles. Thank you.

I probably should have specified my background at the start so people didn't think I was just a whinging twenty-something with no other life experience. I was in IT for 13 years before making the change, so this is not my first professional rodeo, and I know how that sh!t sandwich tastes in another industry. The reason I left was due to the same sentiment that someone already mentioned; if you don't enjoy it, then why do it. I didn't enjoy it, so I left.

I came in to this career knowing full well I'd be eating a different flavored sandwich but the same nonetheless for a few years. But imagine you've been chewing on that sh!t sandwich for four years, and you know that you'll be eating your last bite of that sandwich this year, and then someone goes, "sorry champ, take a seat, we've just made you another sh!t sandwich to eat for another 4-6 years yet". There is a big difference between going into it expecting to be eating that sandwich for 8-10 years, rather than thinking it will be 2-4 like it has been for a while, then watching the industry turn on a dime just as you were getting close to the last bite. A big difference.

I'm aware those conditions aren't unique to GA. But at least at some point you'll have those conditions, but you won't be living remote, isolated away from friends and family, and you'll begin to have some resemblance of a life, and on a liveable salary. And don't tell me you put up with the same sh!t now like the way you did by your employer in GA. Or perhaps you've been away from it for too long and forgot what it was actually like.

My rose colored glasses lost their tint long before I even had my first flying job. Airlines was never really on my radar, I was always aiming for something with a bit more substance. Being a pilot was not something I aspired to since I was born. It was something I found a passion in, and decided to take a punt on turning that passion into a career. It may still work out yet.

[plotplot]

Fokkerdriver, I'm glad you have been able to find a silver lining.

Flightleader, there is an element of guilt that comes with feeling this way. Like I should step aside and give it to someone who would appreciate it more. Just trying to get back to the roots of why I did it in the first place. I've worked my guts out to make this career change like many others. A small break may be all that's needed feel that appreciation again.

[Uplinker]

@plotplot

I would stop now and get out. Seriously.

Aviation is not worth your health, your mental health, your relationships, or your marriage. With the downturn in aviation, nothing is going to happen soon, especially without an A320/B737 rating and experience.

I speak as a career changer. I did something brilliant for 16 years, then saw what was coming and got out. I re-trained as a pilot. I did not do any GA but I did full-on, 4/6 sector days in old machinery with dodgy Captains and 6 on, 2 off rosters. I frequently got up at 0300 or 0230. I drove for 90 mins to check-in. Flew 4 or 6 short, busy sectors, then 90 mins home and do it all again the next day. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.

For standbys, I would get up at 0200 put on my uniform on and drive for 30 mins and find a quiet layby and try to sleep in a sleeping bag in my car with the phone on. (had to be within 60 mins of the airfield).

My marriage did not survive. I missed a lot of my children's life and growing up.

Aviation is not worth all that. Unless you are in the right time and place with the right qualifications and get on the right fleet, in the right airline; I would put it down to experience and retrain for something else, while your brain is still young (I assume) and able to relearn.

You have probably done this, but you have to make your own luck: I made mine: I paid (my own savings), to do a full time frozen ATPL(A) at a respected school, then I did a Shorts 360 type rating, which made me employable, (at the time). I literally jumped into the car and drove 4 hours straight when I heard of a job, just to put my CV on the chief pilot's desk. This got me on the second rung of the ladder.

I did eventually get onto the right jet(s) in the right airline, twice, but both those airlines went bust.

I would say if it hasn't happened within three years of starting out; save your health, save your sanity, save your money. Put it down to experience and do something else.

I would certainly not fly fatigued.

[currawong]

plot, only you can make that call.

You are still alive and solvent, therefore you must be pretty fair at the job.

Take solace in being good at what you do.

Maybe scheme your next move and be ready when the time comes. There are better gigs, albeit not right at this minute.

Good luck.

[Le Chiffre]

Someone mentioned train driving. It's properly the way ahead.

Mate of mine left school at 16 and dossed around fixing computers for 10 years, living with his parents and barely scraping by.

About 6 years ago he responded to an advert for freight train drivers. He has just bought a £350k house cash (i.e. no mortgage), has a great car and long term girlfriend with kid.

When I asked him how he did it he said the base pay (following training) started at £35k and is now £75k. You can then top this up with shift allowances and bonuses. One year he worked Christmas day and Boxing Day and was paid £2500...per day! He has comfortably cleared 6 figures for the last 3 or 4 years.

I have friends who are lawyers and doctors. Outside of the few in top-end private practice it is not that well paid and they make, on average, about £65k having spent 5 or 6 years getting qualified and carrying huge training debt.

'The professions' sound impressive and carry high social capital, but it is not the land of milk and honey.

[PilotLZ]

Living in the moment is not always the best thing. You need to think where you would like to see yourself in 10 or 20 years rather than tomorrow or in a month's time.

Granted, this crisis will pass, just as any other one has. So, long-term, you will have any aviation job opportunity you can think of. The question is, what do you want to get out of it? Also, what frustrates you so much now? It might not be the profession as such but the unsatisfactory environment in the specific gig you're working for. If that's the case, it's a matter of patience until something better comes up. That's a case when it's worth staying in aviation.

However, it your vision of life in 10 years from now is totally incompatible with anything aviation - that's a completely different matter. Then it's not worth extending your suffering and frustration any further than absolutely necessary to change career paths.

[flightleader]

Watch this
WorstPlaceToBeAPilot

Hope it give you a lift.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Give it up, you don't want it badly enough. And what I mean by that has been covered over the last three pages but if you can't handle it now you won't find any comfort when you get into an airline and realise you have to start from the bottom all over again, put up with all of the **** posted above, jump through every hoop and try not to piss off any mid managers along the way (which is the hardest part as they are usually worse than the worst tin pot GA owner), hope the place dosent go bust or you don't kill anyone, to one day maybe get a shot at command, which if you don't pass will leave you stuck in the RHS for the rest of your career slowly morphing into the worst type of FO we have all come accross....


Or.... you could 'suck it up', as you stated in your original post, and get after it.

[Checkboard]

"Well you've never experienced a downturn so get used to it". True, but this is like no other downturn before it. If anything I'd argue people are underestimating how long it's going to take before all the senior guys in GA that were ready to move on see any light at the end of the tunnel. I think the ones that are underestimating it are lying to themselves, because what other option is there. To accept that your career will now stagnate for the next several years whilst you're stuck on the bottom rung is a tough pill to swallow.

Well, some of those higher up the ladder will give up and drop off the ladder. If you have a current job in this environment I would hold on with both hands, personally.

1970s Hijackings
1978 American de-regualtion
1989 pilot's strike.
2001 Sep 11 attacks.
2008 Financial collapse.
2020 Covid pandemic.

Happens every 10 years, as a cycle.

[TLDNMCL]

I was (and I'm not inventing this) nipping into cafes or dodging out of view to vomit on my way to work, two, maybe three times a week, clearly not a healthy situation. Sometimes you have to admit the truth to yourself. We are not all in the right job, and we are not all as tough either mentally or physically as we would like to think. I am far from being part of the snowflake generation either, I've been through a fair bit of sh1t in my time on the planet, but after 20 years in an organisation which succeeded in grinding me down, the best thing was to leave. As things go, the CEO, COO and around a dozen colleagues of similar time service left within roughly a month of each other. Good luck, and put your well-being ahead of the rat race.

[Sunfish]

Agree with TLDNMCL. I’ve never vomited but there are some jobs in some organisations that are literally toxic. If you are stuck as the sole breadwinner with a wife, young kids and a mortgage, these jobs will try to kill you. The best advice I can give is not to put yourself in that situation where you are “locked in” and can’t escape.

...Hence my advice to stick to trades and/or operating your own unique business, invest in your self. Do something that others can’t or won’t do and don’t overthink things. ‘high wire acts” CEO, airline pilot in Australia dependent on seniority, specialised middle management skills in tiny industries, etc. should be avoided.

I know two guys who have just sold their businesses pre covid and who have started new ones as hobbies - that are growing as we speak! So don’t despair. Then there is an acquaintance “J” who works in construction as a sub contractor, he is in his early 30’s, he flies his own jetranger wearing steel capped boots, flouro vest and tradie shorts! There is life out there but you won’t find it working for a boss in some big company!

I recommend watching the movie ‘Kenny” It portrays a better life than trying to be an airline pilot.

[LexAir]

Well said Sunfish. Could not agree more. After the holocaust of 1989, I started out on my own and have never regretted it. It has been hard at times but every morning you wake up knowing that whether you succeed or fail is mostly down to your own decisions.

[dontgive2FACs]

Does sound a lot like you’re frustrated which is very understandable given the uncertainty of the industry (and life generally at the moment!).

Many good points have been made here already So no need to add too much.

I would encourage you to do what your gut is telling you. Aviation is cyclical. There will be a peak again, followed by a trough.

Personally I think the narrative of ‘do something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life’ is very rare in long-term employees. Most passions, that turn into a profession, become cumbersome jobs. It’s human nature.

Even at ‘the top’ your gripes won’t get any better. Whatever flying job/rank you hold now, you’re going to be there for a while (5-10 years perhaps with the surplus of pilots). I strongly agree with others that if you are not enjoying the industry at this point in your career now, it is a great chance to get out.

Once it all bubbles-out, everyone wants the best lifestyle for their family trade-off for money. Do whatever gives you this in the long term.

All it takes is for some grief to appear in your life and the important things (family, security and true friends) will quickly become clear.

All the best.

[dartman2]

This is not a pleasant industry anymore. Consider other options and most definitely outside the Republic of Victoria

[megan]

Andy G - Ive got a couple of mates that ended up in rotary wing SAR and have always seemed to be pretty happy with what they do. I suppose thats because they are helping people who are having a really bad day.plotplot, your OP makes for sad, sad reading and fully understand where you're coming from. Your main issue would seem to be the ungrateful employer for whom you toil, of which GA has plenty.

As Andy suggests there are some good jobs in GA available. Was very fortunate to spend my time in GA doing corporate transport, worked a fortnight roster, four days off, 7AM to 5:30PM with two nights on standby for emergency call outs (effectively giving six days off as call outs were extremely rare), well paid, still missed some Xmas etc. Those sort of jobs do exist, albeit few and far between, from what little I know our local EMS operator seems to run very tight ships, rostered well in advance, well paid, good machinery, good maintenance, and as Andy mentioned, satisfaction from helping people in distress. You're still subject to the period of the contract re employment, but if the contract changes hands, with the accumulated local knowledge, its likely you'd just need to change uniform. Unlike the airline industry, you're pretty much insulated from the economic ups and downs as well. As with all things in life, not for everybody of course.

Sincerely hope you can find your happy niche.

[George Glass]

“After four years of slogging away in GA, I've hit a wall and I don't know if I want to be a part of this profession anymore”

Quoting from your original post. Uuumh .......4 years slogging in GA ? That’s a minimum.
Did you do your homework?
The number of life long career opportunities in GA are like rocking horse sh*t.
Most pilots get into GA for one reason only. To get into a Major and fly a jet.
It has always been hard ,it has always been a crap shoot . Only a few make it all the way , but is it worth it if you win ? Absolutely.
And no , I have never vomited on my way to work.
Despite what some non-professional pilot pseudo expert contributors have said , committing to a career as a Professional Pilot is absolutely worth the effort and commitment. I might be naive , but I still believe it is a noble profession. The industry has been destroyed by accountants and HR departments , not by the job itself.
The COVID crisis is bad, very bad , but not unprecedented by any stretch. 1989 had me out of the game for over a year.
Plenty have had it worse.
How much do you want it ?
Thats all you have to ask.

[OutsideCAS]

but I still believe it is a noble profession

Hahahaha. That did make me laugh.

[George Glass]

Hahahaha. That did make me laugh.

So , who ,exactly , do you entrust your family to ( if you have one ) when you put them on an aircraft ?
Or are you oblivious ?
I know I’m showing my age but there is a difference between what HR thinks of you and what you yourself believe to be true. Professionalism maybe ?

[DUXNUTZ]

Those 4 years of GA that you hate now night end up being the most fun you have in your career!

I recall my time in GA; 2 years pistons and 5 multi crew turboprob as some of the crappiest people/locations to work for/in but you make lifelong memories and in reality they create character and friendships that you’ll look back with positivity.

I recall a guy from my flying school. He got his licenses and instructor rating. Guy never got a start, mainly because he never perused anything HARD. He waited for something to fall in his lap, and well it never did. Whilst the rest of us worked leads and some ended up in some outback town somewhere, he gave up and ended up paying for an endorsement and ICUS at some place and when that ended he gave up.

Life and the journey along it isn’t always going to be a case of handouts and giveaways. It takes grit and perseverance to succeed in anything.

[josephfeatherweight]

I don't often agree with Sunfish, but, on this one, I agree wholeheartedly, he is absolutely correct - learn a trade - wish I had!

[Gearupandorrf]

Work is only a small part of life in the scheme of things.

Do whatever you need to do to enjoy life outside of work.

Look at the big picture. The most important things in life are not in the Cockpit.

[Sunfish]

George Glass, I wish I could agree with you. The problem for you, as I learned around 1980, is that the bean counters want a dividend for the cost of all that new technology and that dividend is taken as cheaper pilots. In other words, your profession is being dumbed down and that will continue. The same is now happening to medical staff.

You have already seen the consequences for example the san francisco crash by a copilot who couldn’t manually land the aircraft. while the immediate response is a call for more stick and rudder skills, you and I know that the manufacturers long term response is more sophisticated automatics.

Look at it another way, the history of all technology is to de skill and automate. Airline piloting is no different. Get out now. You will just be a glorified bus driver shortly. Technology is going to depress your skills wages and bargaining position.

Do something that cannot be automated.

[Derfred]

I loved my GA flying. If it wasn’t for the money that my wife now enjoys, I would go back to GA tomorrow.

I suspect that if you don’t enjoy flying GA, then you won’t enjoy flying jets either.

Jets are not more enjoyable than GA. The money is better, and you might get to live in a Capital City (if that’s what you want), but the hours are awful, and you will work most precious days such as birthdays and Christmas.

You might stay in some nicer hotels, but your wife and kids won’t be there with you. It is a lonely life in that respect.

Most of us do it because we love the flying. If you don’t love flying after 4 years, you certainly won’t love it after 20-30 years, no matter what jet you are flying, and how much you are earning.

There is also considerable down pressure on airline pilot wages and conditions. What I earn now, you probably won’t earn in 20-30 years time.

So I would have to repeat what many others above have said, if you don’t love it enough to put up with all the crap that goes with it, then it is not the job for you.

Alternatively, give yourself a reality check. Are you expecting too much from life? No-one loves every minute of their job. If such a job existed, it wouldn’t be a job. You only get paid because no-one else is offering to do it for free!

[boltz]

I've been there....

Not going to tell you what you should do, rather tell you about my experience.
I'm an aircraft mechanic by trade. Did my apprenticeship and then left straight away to take up flying. Rather than go up north i did instructing for a year and then moved onto low level survey work for the second year. I would have to say, I've never had so much fun! Especially the low level work. Got to see most of Australia! This was all 12 years ago.
Unlike most, I had zero desire to go to the airlines. I wanted to stay in GA.
So why did I leave only after 2 years? I must say my employers were great and I flew well maintained aircraft. I was effectively my own boss doing the survey work and would make all the calls.
I left for a few reasons. Poor pay, sick of living out of a suitcase, spare time spent in country towns <10,000 people, rarely seeing family and friends.
It was hard for me knowing I spent $70k on flight training just so I could earn as much as someone at Coles... so I left without another job lined up. I said to myself I'm done with aviation as a whole, not just flying.
Being unemployed for a few months I ended up taking a job in aviation. Been with this company for 10 years now and have moved up the ranks. Have excellent conditions with a base pay on par with a Qantas 737 FO, with overtime available if I want to earn more.
Do I love my current job? Hell no. I don't hate it but I don't love it. I do enjoy the overall package which is why I'm still here after 10 years and will continue to be so.
Like most I still look up when a plane flies overhead and do miss those awesome adventures you have with flying. They are priceless.
Now my job is just a job. I work to live, not live to work.
I still fly but it's as a hobby.
Hopefully hearing everyone's experience helps you with making your own decision.

[JOSHUA]

Some people are hung up on the word “professional”. They have an emotional need for status. I grew up in an age when people looked up at professionals with university degrees and looked distastefully at “trades” and tradesmen. It was an understandable but short sighted idea. People assumed that “professionals”, (a) made more money and (b) were happier.

This was and is BS. while I was still a ragged university student, young tradesmen already had their second or third car, were paying off their first house and were thinking of wife and kids. As a professional engineer, I was at least six or seven years behind the kids who were apprenticed and earning at sixteen in terms of establishing an independent lifestyle and my own household. I have NEVER made up that gap and neither have many other professionals. It’s called discounted cash flow - you might pick up a six figure salary as a professional at the peak of your earning powers but that doesn’t make up for the years of relative poverty and stress to achieve it.

Furthermore there is a unique Australian associated problem - income tax. The tax scales don’t have any compensation for risk, investment and the stress involved in earning that big salary at all. You are better off earning less if you can get stable long term perhaps undemanding work rather than trying to make big bucks on the corporate high wire where one slip and....,,

‘’Try and forget the status / power / snobbery angle and find something that is personally satisfying.

I still remember the constant stream of suicides as students jumped off the ming wing when the tension between what they wanted to do and what their parents expected them to do became just too much.


That my friend, is a spot on post.

[Roj approved]

Plotplot,

Some very poignant stories below, Aviation is not for everyone.

I got into GA at about 26, (late ‘90’s) not that late, but I’d done some fun stuff before it, and some really ****ty jobs too.

It was almost 10 years before I was back in an Eastcoast city with an “Airline”. (Which went bust inside 2 years)

What helped me through GA was that I wasn’t straight from school/flying school, and it wasn’t my first time out of home. I’d been on the dole, worked a bunch of jobs, traveled for a few years, and it was a long search for my start. I truly believe those experiences were what kept me going through the hard times in GA.

GA can be a drag, but it can also be a heap of fun too.

I worked/meet a lot of pilots in your situation, you are not alone, and I feel for you. They also thought everything would be better when the got into an Airline. For that reason they didn’t stop to enjoy themselves, and some days it is hard to find the enjoyment.

But, for some of them, unfortunately, the shiny Jet Job hasn’t solved all their problems, and all of us find ourselves either stood down or unemployed at the moment. I’m back doing one of those “****ty jobs” again, Landscaping, and reminiscing of those 14 sector mail runs, all day sit at the airport in a remote community, struggling to get night hours etc.

I know what I’d rather be doing for $150 a day, and it’s not pulling weeds.

The AFAP has an Assistance program, they also have a mentoring program, these might be of some use to you to help you in this tough time. Sometimes, as you have done, reaching out might be the first step towards making some Positive changes.

Good luck, and most importantly, look after yourself, there is a lot of life ahead to enjoy when all this craziness is behind us.

[Skippy69]

Surely the government should step up soon and make the award a little more attractive, as at the moment it stinks!! I would love to be back in the cockpit, but the money is terrible!! i feel like that following this its only going to get far worse as airlines will look to the desperate pilots who will work for peanuts- leaving those of us who would like to earn what its worth sucking eggs!!

Im fortunate that I have a trade, it pays very well, but my passion is flying, im a wee worried what the future will hold!

[George Glass]

George Glass, I wish I could agree with you. The problem for you, as I learned around 1980, is that the bean counters want a dividend for the cost of all that new technology and that dividend is taken as cheaper pilots. In other words, your profession is being dumbed down and that will continue. The same is now happening to medical staff.

You have already seen the consequences for example the san francisco crash by a copilot who couldn’t manually land the aircraft. while the immediate response is a call for more stick and rudder skills, you and I know that the manufacturers long term response is more sophisticated automatics.

Look at it another way, the history of all technology is to de skill and automate. Airline piloting is no different. Get out now. You will just be a glorified bus driver shortly. Technology is going to depress your skills wages and bargaining position.

Do something that cannot be automated.

Well , Sunfish , I don’t know how much contact you have with the Medical Profession but I have many family members engaged in it and I can assure you that they regard automation as an enabler and capability expander. It will not replace human judgement. It will be the same in aviation.
I wish I could take you on a 4 day domestic pattern to give you an idea of what an Airline Pilot actually does. Physical manipulation is a very small part of it. Pilots will be around a lot longer than the software designers think.
Skill erosion is a going to be a huge problem as this pandemic drags on. I hope the space cadets in management are working out a realistic plan for a return to work. If they screw it up the travelling public will find out very quickly how important an experienced , well trained , and current, Pilot is.
I hope it doesn’t end in tears.

[Uplinker]

[the medical profession].......regard automation as an enabler and capability expander. It will not replace human judgement. It will be the same in aviation. I wish I could take you on a 4 day domestic pattern to give you an idea of what an Airline Pilot actually does. Physical manipulation is a very small part of it. Pilots will be around a lot longer than the software designers think.

George, that is a good summing up of what good automation should be and why pilots will not be "automated" out of the cockpit.

From accepting MEL items, to reading the weather and NOTAMS and deciding a fuel load, a thorough walk-around, taxiing out, and then conducting the flight and avoiding weather etc: Pilots do so much more than "drive" the plane. The "driving" part, as you say, is a small element.

[Sholayo]

STEM, law, ongoing, programming. What a waste of time! All you are doing is setting yourself up to be another employee. (...)

Invest in learning a trade or become an intern and learn business skills like property development. Stay away from “professions” they are a waste of time as far as satisfaction is concerned. Learn to do something nobody else can do is a better proposition.

Yeah, because nobody else can do 'property development'. This is unique skill unlike STEM or programming.

IT manager here - I assure you programming IS development and there are many niches little people can do. And finding smart and neat solution gives you tremendous satisfaction on almost weekly basis for 10+ years. Regularly.

&

&

[Squawk7700]

Airline execs have been wanting to do for years what the virus has done in a few months. Qantas tried to reinvent as a low cost model when they started JetStar but whilst somewhat successful, was met with a lot of resistance.

Now Qantas and Virgin can lay off their pilots off and re-hire them at greatly reduced salaries under a new agreement with one hell of an excuse for being tight.

Long gone will be these Captain salaries on $250k-$450k brackets. Just like Tiger did!

[Capt Fathom]

Qantas tried to reinvent as a low cost model when they started JetStar but whilst somewhat successful, was met with a lot of resistance.

I thought the Jetstar model was quite successful and has been running for many years!

[Squawk7700]

I thought the Jetstar model was quite successful and has been running for many years!

To be truly successful, a Jetstar 787 will need to fly from Mel/Syd to LAX.

When that happens, watch the sparks fly and they won’t be from the engines! There will be EBA discussions and unions meetings in rooms across the country.

They have made it as far as Honolulu thus far. How many flights does QF do to Honolulu these days? Not many!

[Sunfish]

Sholayo the IT manager. Wait till your bosses boss decides to contract you and your entire team to an Indian outsourcer, or when the Board decides your next project should be in “partnership” with Accenture, or somebody decides to submit you to “lean sigma” or when they decide to change the platform to SAP, or Oracle gets a foot in the door, or you get a software engineering zealot above you that wants to change your entire development methodology and tool set, or the girl you didn’t give a bonus to alleges you sexually harassed her or, or, or, or. There are so many ways your career can go down in flames that are beyond your control if you do not control your own destiny AND IT IS GETTING WORSE.

Property development? You wouldn’t even know what the skill set or business model is and there is no university course to teach you. I have a relative who got taught “ the knack”. I was a crew member when we brought his new acquisition- 72 feet, 2400hp, 400 litres an hour, at 34 knots from Sydney to Brisbane. He is a delightfully understanding and. mild mannered best mate. he makes his staff into millionaires and makes millions for his customers and some of it accrues to him as well. How does he do it? Not by following a handbook.

[OutsideCAS]

Hi George,

For me, nobility means amongst other things (profession, or otherwise) "having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals, righteous, virtuous, honourable, decent, upright , moral, ethical" etc.

Out of those list very few apply to where I work in the main. More prolific admittedly the higher position attained by said individuals seemingly.

[bafanguy]

Watch this
WorstPlaceToBeAPilot (https://youtu.be/UaoDtoscRMY)

Hope it give you a lift.

flightleader,

Thanks for posting the video. I really enjoyed it...quite far from anything I did. That flying asks a lot of the young people.

When the young guy took his first flight in the Caravan, the instructor told him, "So far you're the worst pilot of the day." ? That couldn't have helped the guy very much.

[Flyboy1987]

I’m in a similar leaking boat :(

Traded everything and everyone for what I thought would be around 5 years of a tough slog...it’s now been 7 with no end in sight.
flying atm...but that looks to stop very soon, and then my only option is to slide back down the aviation ladder.
I’ve loved my time in aviation, especially my initial few years up north, wouldn’t trade it for the world.
But how much can one person take, approaching mid 30’s and have literally no possessions or money to my name....the chance of meeting a serious partner and having a family are all but gone...

Not a sob story, but it’s the reality for myself and so many of my friends. One thing I’ve learnt while talking to the older boys at airlines, their ga days were 1000-2000 hours....in the same registered machines I flew...just 20 years earlier...perhaps it’s why they speak fondly of their days in darwin and Broome.

I feel your pain plot, and like you, I have no idea what to do. Throw it away...or go back up north to face the pineapples for another 5 years...only to once again return with nothing.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I deeply regret my career choice.

I find the job repetitive, unhealthy, incredible boring, lonely, pointless and frustrating. Although my salary is great (Asian Long Haul) and probably safe from Covid, it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't help I don't like to live at my base either.

The funny thing is, I knew it all along. But I was never brave enough to admit it and to quit. Now I am used to the money, covered in mortgages and school fees and feel too old for a career change.

Just my personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone.

[George Glass]

Hi George,

For me, nobility means amongst other things (profession, or otherwise) "having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals, righteous, virtuous, honourable, decent, upright , moral, ethical" etc.

Out of those list very few apply to where I work in the main. More prolific admittedly the higher position attained by said individuals seemingly.

I must have been lucky. The operators I have worked for had many first rate people. Including in GA. Boeing has some of the most impressive people you will ever meet.
The selection criteria for the major airline I work for took the “character” aspect of candidates very seriously. But then I acknowledge I am probably a dinosaur ,remembering a lost world. Maybe it wont return . I hope it will. But some posts on this thread make me doubt it. Pretty sad.

[Squawk7700]

I deeply regret my career choice.

I find the job repetitive, unhealthy, incredible boring, lonely, pointless and frustrating. Although my salary is great (Asian Long Haul) and probably safe from Covid, it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't help I don't like to live at my base either.

The funny thing is, I knew it all along. But I was never brave enough to admit it and to quit. Now I am used to the money, covered in mortgages and school fees and feel too old for a career change.

Just my personal opinion, not trying to offend anyone.

That sounds like every working male I know that is over 40 with a family!

Once you get to that age, everything you do is for your kids.

Once they have left home, some of what you do is for yourself once again.

[The Green Goblin]

You’ve pretty much described an airline career too. Albeit the rostering is a little tighter and when you say the F word you gracefully stay home.

Your hearts either in it or it isn’t. I enjoy the game of flying. Others enjoy the destination. Some enjoy long haul. Others short haul. Some love regionals or aero medical. Corporate. Ag. The list goes on.

So yes, GA can get you down. However there are many flavours of flying out there. You just need to find your niche.

Everyone I know who stuck with it got to where they wanted to be. The ones who didn’t, didn’t. Quite simply.

Find a good GA operator who has progression. Give them a call and ask what you need to do to get a job there. Keep touching base and updating them. GA is much nicer in a turboprop.

Stick with it. You’ll find your niche. If you love it. If you don’t, bow out. However, you’ll probably regret it. Either way :)

[Lookleft]

Everyone I know who stuck with it got to where they wanted to be. The ones who didn’t, didn’t. Quite simply.

This statement is the simple truth of the matter.

[megan]

Roj, did that there dog bite if you touched anything? Wondering if the oft told tale is true.

[plotplot]

Some great contributions here thanks everyone.

Another good series similar to that one I enjoyed watching was Dangerous Flights, documentary about ferry pilots in the US. Completely over-dramatized but still some good content.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENVvwAT25Jk

After a lot of reflection this week I'm beginning to feel it's more of an issue with the company draining the life out of not just me but my colleagues as well. And I'd say this is a pretty common story across the board.

Before Covid we we were tired, overworked and underpaid but still living off the idea that we'd be onto better things in a short period of time. Now we're tired, overworked and underpaid with no end in sight. But it's all about perspective in the end. I have actually made some amazing memories and have done and seen a lot of things most people will never see in their lives, and made some lifelong friends along the way. And I don't regret it. But I do think I will regret it if I walk away. Me from four years ago would be giving current me an uppercut right now for even considering leaving. All I could think about then was being where I am now.

Allowing the bean counters to suck the joy out of the flying and make you see it as just a job is a part of the issue. So each time I fly I try to stop and smell the roses for a second, even if it is for a fleeting moment taking in the view and trying to remember why I was there in the first place.

One thing is guaranteed is that it will go from famine to feast again. So until it does I'll do my best to try and enjoy the ride.

[pa12 pilot]

not realistic. NOT REALISTIC.
it is not realistic nor fair to expect me to change careers and pay the house along the way.

It is simply not realistic nor fair to 99% of us who’ve been putting too much into this
Your attitude is astonishing. Your professional and personal aspirations aren’t met, but it’s not realistic to make a change? Do you expect the industry to somehow change to make you satisfied?

It’s not fair to expect you to change careers? Here’s a news flash: life isn’t fair.

You alone are responsible for your happiness and your success. If things aren’t to your liking you need to make a change, because the world isn’t going to change to make you happy.

[Lookleft]

Well done plotplot.

[Uplinker]

The bored long-haul pilot on this thread? Just think about the positives. You have an airline pilot job. You are flying in and out of places many people will never see. You walk through prestigious airports with your crew, getting special access and treatment. You fly in a modern airliner with amazing technology and your working day is not physically hard or demanding. On long-haul during quiet times in the cruise, I did the cryptic crossword, looked out the window and marvelled at our planet, worked on the manuals, watched for satellites, the ISS and the Aurora Borealis. Boring? Never.

But if your job is actually making you physically or mentally ill, then as I said in my earlier post, you must change. Change base or fleet if you can, or get out and find another job or career. It is much easier to get a new job while already employed - while you are keeping current and qualified, and someone else is paying your living expenses. So start firing CVs out again, do your research and go and knock on doors. If you want to keep flying, then as someone on this thread said, chose a good operator you want to work for and ask the chief pilot what you need to do to be considered. I did exactly that, many years ago, and got my first Airbus FBW gig, (admittedly without the buggeration of Covid, but 9/11 happened, which stopped things for a while).

[extralite]

Prestigious airports? That's an interesting phrase. I'm thankful for those pilots that want to do the job. I wonder why however. Not physically taxing true but the hours and politics seem crippling compared to other jobs.

[hec7or]

The bored long-haul pilot on this thread? Just think about the positives. You have an airline pilot job. You are flying in and out of places many people will never see. You walk through prestigious airports with your crew, getting special access and treatment. You fly in a modern airliner with amazing technology and your working day is not physically hard or demanding.
Airline pilot job.......big deal
Places many people will never see......or want to see
prestigious airports.....come on!
modern airliner.....outdated technology.

positives, hmmmmm........ paycheck.

not so great really

[Roj approved]

Roj, did that there dog bite if you touched anything? Wondering if the oft told tale is true.

Haha, no, not installed for that reason😂😂

[PilotLZ]

The bottom line is, every job can be great if it's the right fit for you. Some people absolutely love the dynamics of working for a LCC and spend decades on end working for a LCC as a matter of conscious personal choice, not because their five-digit number of jet hours wouldn't have allowed them to get another job. Some enjoy long-haul with all its perks, despite the working hours, changing time zones, being away from home a lot etc. Some are born night owls and wouldn't trade cargo for anything. Some would never consider trading their corporate jet for an airliner. Some wouldn't consider any transport aircraft as instructing and doing agricultural flying in a SEP/MEP is all they want to do. I've seen all those kinds of people. Neither of them is universally right or wrong, but each one is right for himself. There are many different types of flying and having found the right one for you with a decent operator which treats you professionally often makes the difference between fulfilment and frustration. Or, if neither of them sounds like a good match - there are also countless other career options, both in aviation and outside of it.

[SITTINGBULL]

Nah I don't know guys, I feel like I made a big f***ing mistake letting my young age and passion pull me into this industry.

I'm now 25 stuck working for propably one of the worst GA opperator/owners in the country in a clapped out twin and single from a remote base... Who knows how much longer I will be out here for!

Im often cross that I know of a dozen people around my age or younger working at [insert Dash 8 operator here] out of a capital city, that for the most part don't deserve to be there, and only got there because HR opened the flood gates, all they needed was their parents to cough up the 10-20K to buy the Job.

I have a highly supportive and better deserving partner back home on the J curve, I don't feel like it's wise to give that up just to chase what is pretty much eternal lonlieness, and by the looks of the MR, my impending death.

If I leave now, I don't think I'll ever return to the industry, at least not in a flying role. But im stumped as to what industry or role I could possibly migrate too. I, like most of us, have had my minds set only on flying for a long time... it's all I know. So what do I do now?

IT? - For the love of god I have no idea why IT get's tossed around in pilot forums so much
Trade? - Electrcial
Office Job? - How long before I loose my **** and throw my PC out window?

I don't want to piss away another 3-5 years studying at university only to find myself broaching into my 30's and in the red another 20-30K with no sustainable job.

But on the other hand, what is a non-flying role like? Whats it like having a normal job and a normal life? Is it worth it? Will I resent myself if I never fly professionally again? Should I try an join the Defence Force? I cannot possibly afford to make another mistake.

[Sunfish]

Sitting Bull, let me give you some advice. You WILL make more mistakes, lots of them. Get used to it. What is vitally important is how you RECOVER from your mistakes. If you cry your eyes out for months you are wasting time. What’s done is done. Furthermore, we operate with perfect hindsight and castigate ourselves for “mistakes” that couldn’t be avoided because we didn’t have foreknowledge of what happened next. It’s axiomatic in neurolinguistics that people make what they think is the best decision based on what they know at the time. How could you know about Covid when you started flying?

I agree, university is a waste of time if you want a meal ticket, you will end up working for the same creeps you worked for in aviation. What are your passions? What are you good at? Forget the money, that comes later. Get out and network. Talk to everyone, anyone, you will be surprised what you learn. Watch the movie “Kenny” there is money even in crap. A relative was a personal trainer, she got tired of paying for certain beauty products. She now is building her own brand quite successfully. Two male friends my age just sold their businesses. However their customers won’t let them retire. They have both started new businesses. My daughter in law was in HR, she got sick of being trashed by her employer. She now has her own rapidly growing specialised HR company and she is busy with a capital B.

There are opportunities out there. Find your passion. Go and talk to people in that industry. There are plenty of ideas around.

[Checkboard]

The thing is, thinking about it, I spent five years in GA ... never once did I think about giving it up.

[mattyj]

If the family and loved ones you are missing live down in Victoria under that megalomaniac Andrews, send them a Skype and thank your lucky stars you’re not with them..!

[plotplot]

The thing is, thinking about it, I spent five years in GA ... never once did I think about giving it up.
In your five years, was the industry ever decimated in a matter of weeks just as you were gearing up to move on? Before all of this the thought had never crossed my mind either. I'm sure there were plenty of people in the same boat who were in GA in 2009-10, after 2001 and after '89 that would have been stuck for a while as well. Any of them in here by any chance?

[Roj approved]

In your five years, was the industry ever decimated in a matter of weeks just as you were gearing up to move on? Before all of this the thought had never crossed my mind either. I'm sure there were plenty of people in the same boat who were in GA in 2009-10, after 2001 and after '89 that would have been stuck for a while as well. Any of them in here by any chance?

Hi PlotPlot,

Yes.

1990 - Finished my flying training. Went looking for GA jobs, spoke to a guy flying in the Torres Straights that had been flying the same C206 for 4 years, was about to go on the Islander, '89 happened, he was stuck on the C206 as all progress stopped. He did at least another 2 years on the single before moving up. At the time there was 1 parachute operator in CNS, in a C182, the pilot had been "working" for him for 2 years, ON THE DOLE. (He is now a NB Capt in Aus) I was driving a tour bus along with other jobs. I met heaps of "pilots" working in bars.

1993 - I got disillusioned, went overseas looking for work, and it was even harder than finding work in Australia. Did a bunch of other jobs for 3 years, (Ski Fields, Fish Factory, Landscaping, Bars, Private Yachts) had a heap of fun, but it didn't stop me from wanting to come home and fly aeroplanes.

1996 - I came home, (I was 25yo) spent a bunch of money getting my CPL/IR current, started chasing the work, was doing ok, having fun. Most importantly, I was gaining experience. Started studying again, finished my ATPL subjects, did an Aviation Degree, tried to get myself in the best position I could to be employed. Things started to move pretty quickly, Turbine jobs, Regionals etc, VB started up, Even QF were employing!!! Apparently there was a pilot shortage. Us guys in the bush struggled to get any traction with the "J Curve" regionals, (watched all the 2 year instructors get the QLink, Hazo's/Kendall jobs) but the FNQ/NT/WA operators were employing, then 2001 happened.

May 2001 - FlightWest ceased operation.

September 2001 - Kendalls, Hazo's and Ansett ceased operation

It took about 9 months for things to start moving again, REX was borne out of Kendall/Hazo's, VB expanded rapidly, Impulse became Q Link(2001) then Jetstar(2004)

2002-2003. We all moved up the ladder, some quickly (VB/QF, REX, Eastern, Sunstate etc), some just one rung at a time, JetCraft/MacAir/PelAir/RFDS. It was very hard watching some pilots jump straight into QF/VB etc, when you couldn't get a look in, but, that's life really. Maybe it was ME?

Had some great times, flew turbines, moved into a Jet, did some international flying, made some great friends, met a girl, cracked $60k/year, life was good.

2007 - Got a job in a "J Curve" city, on a shiny Jet, good money, not too much work, quick command, life was good for 2 years.

2009 - GFC - Company went bust, UnEmployed, lost a bunch of money in entitlements, but worst still, I HAD NO JOB. Worldwide, no one was employing due to the GFC. Was 5 months out of work, paid to do a SIM to keep current, finally found a job overseas. Left my girlfriend at home and moved to a 3rd world country I new nothing about to fly to places I had never heard of.

Dec 2009 - Company went Bust, UnEmployed again!!! Luckily, things in Australia were looking up,

April 2010 - Got a job back home, moved to big "J Curve City", enjoyed life, got married, had kids.

2010 - 2014 - Domestic Narrow Body ops

2014-2018 - WideBody International

2018- March 2020 - Narrow Body Capt

March 2020 - Current - JobKeeper Recipient/Landscape Gardener's assistant.

So, there is my 30 year Resume of experience in the aviation industry. So YES, I lived through '89, 2001, 2007 and COVID, and all the other crap in between. There have been some good times and bad times, many ups, but just as many downs.

I can assure you though, the 3 years I did back in the '90's were I didn't fly, not a day went past when I didn't think about flying and how I was going to get back in an aeroplane.

Also, maybe if I had persevered in the early '90's, not taken a break, I may have been in a few thousand hours better off for the employment boom that happened in the mid to late '90's? I may have got a Regional/Airline Gig and subsequently been 5-10 years ahead of where I am currently? I lost a lot of sleep over that for many years, now I just accept that as part of my life.

I've worked for "the worst operator in GA", and I've worked for Ok operators, some were even "good", but, I always got paid. Sometimes it wasn't as good as it should have been, sometimes the aircraft weren't as good as they could have been, but they were legal to fly.

I feel for you, there doesn't look like there is much of a future right now, but if you decide to take a break now and want to come back to it, you may miss an opportunity when the music starts again. Also, due to Covid, regular jobs are a bit thin on the ground in the big cities. I have spoken to Pilots/Flight Attendants that are having a really hard time getting any decent long term jobs, and I certainly don't recommend Landscaping!!

Well done for reaching out for advice, as I mentioned in my last post #60, there are a number of avenues you could pursue for assistance, please consider these as I am confident they will help you get through these tough times.

It is sad that you are still banging around in some of the same airframes that were "old" when I was in GA, but you have to put your trust in the engineers to keep them serviceable, and yourself to make sure the defects are reported and rectified. This is one of the most important lessons you can learn, because that same the pressure is still there in the airlines.

Good luck to you with your decision. PM me if you like, I'm free all day (my landscaping boss has gone on holidays ;-0)

[whatsyourbeef]

Hi PlotPlot,

Yes.

1990 - Finished my flying training. Went looking for GA jobs, spoke to a guy flying in the Torres Straights that had been flying the same C206 for 4 years, was about to go on the Islander, '89 happened, he was stuck on the C206 as all progress stopped. He did at least another 2 years on the single before moving up. At the time there was 1 parachute operator in CNS, in a C182, the pilot had been "working" for him for 2 years, ON THE DOLE. (He is now a NB Capt in Aus) I was driving a tour bus along with other jobs. I met heaps of "pilots" working in bars.

1993 - I got disillusioned, went overseas looking for work, and it was even harder than finding work in Australia. Did a bunch of other jobs for 3 years, (Ski Fields, Fish Factory, Landscaping, Bars, Private Yachts) had a heap of fun, but it didn't stop me from wanting to come home and fly aeroplanes.

1996 - I came home, (I was 25yo) spent a bunch of money getting my CPL/IR current, started chasing the work, was doing ok, having fun. Most importantly, I was gaining experience. Started studying again, finished my ATPL subjects, did an Aviation Degree, tried to get myself in the best position I could to be employed. Things started to move pretty quickly, Turbine jobs, Regionals etc, VB started up, Even QF were employing!!! Apparently there was a pilot shortage. Us guys in the bush struggled to get any traction with the "J Curve" regionals, (watched all the 2 year instructors get the QLink, Hazo's/Kendall jobs) but the FNQ/NT/WA operators were employing, then 2001 happened.

May 2001 - FlightWest ceased operation.

September 2001 - Kendalls, Hazo's and Ansett ceased operation

It took about 9 months for things to start moving again, REX was borne out of Kendall/Hazo's, VB expanded rapidly, Impulse became Q Link(2001) then Jetstar(2004)

2002-2003. We all moved up the ladder, some quickly (VB/QF, REX, Eastern, Sunstate etc), some just one rung at a time, JetCraft/MacAir/PelAir/RFDS. It was very hard watching some pilots jump straight into QF/VB etc, when you couldn't get a look in, but, that's life really. Maybe it was ME?

Had some great times, flew turbines, moved into a Jet, did some international flying, made some great friends, met a girl, cracked $60k/year, life was good.

2007 - Got a job in a "J Curve" city, on a shiny Jet, good money, not too much work, quick command, life was good for 2 years.

2009 - GFC - Company went bust, UnEmployed, lost a bunch of money in entitlements, but worst still, I HAD NO JOB. Worldwide, no one was employing due to the GFC. Was 5 months out of work, paid to do a SIM to keep current, finally found a job overseas. Left my girlfriend at home and moved to a 3rd world country I new nothing about to fly to places I had never heard of.

Dec 2009 - Company went Bust, UnEmployed again!!! Luckily, things in Australia were looking up,

April 2010 - Got a job back home, moved to big "J Curve City", enjoyed life, got married, had kids.

2010 - 2014 - Domestic Narrow Body ops

2014-2018 - WideBody International

2018- March 2020 - Narrow Body Capt

March 2020 - Current - JobKeeper Recipient/Landscape Gardener's assistant.

So, there is my 30 year Resume of experience in the aviation industry. So YES, I lived through '89, 2001, 2007 and COVID, and all the other crap in between. There have been some good times and bad times, many ups, but just as many downs.

I can assure you though, the 3 years I did back in the '90's were I didn't fly, not a day went past when I didn't think about flying and how I was going to get back in an aeroplane.

Also, maybe if I had persevered in the early '90's, not taken a break, I may have been in a few thousand hours better off for the employment boom that happened in the mid to late '90's? I may have got a Regional/Airline Gig and subsequently been 5-10 years ahead of where I am currently? I lost a lot of sleep over that for many years, now I just accept that as part of my life.

I've worked for "the worst operator in GA", and I've worked for Ok operators, some were even "good", but, I always got paid. Sometimes it wasn't as good as it should have been, sometimes the aircraft weren't as good as they could have been, but they were legal to fly.

I feel for you, there doesn't look like there is much of a future right now, but if you decide to take a break now and want to come back to it, you may miss an opportunity when the music starts again. Also, due to Covid, regular jobs are a bit thin on the ground in the big cities. I have spoken to Pilots/Flight Attendants that are having a really hard time getting any decent long term jobs, and I certainly don't recommend Landscaping!!

Well done for reaching out for advice, as I mentioned in my last post #60, there are a number of avenues you could pursue for assistance, please consider these as I am confident they will help you get through these tough times.

It is sad that you are still banging around in some of the same airframes that were "old" when I was in GA, but you have to put your trust in the engineers to keep them serviceable, and yourself to make sure the defects are reported and rectified. This is one of the most important lessons you can learn, because that same the pressure is still there in the airlines.

Good luck to you with your decision. PM me if you like, I'm free all day (my landscaping boss has gone on holidays ;-0)


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x220/tenor_1bb29141cc02466829867c354172bdfe932e2b16.gif

[geeup]

Hi PlotPlot,

Yes.

1990 - Finished my flying training. Went looking for GA jobs, spoke to a guy flying in the Torres Straights that had been flying the same C206 for 4 years, was about to go on the Islander, '89 happened, he was stuck on the C206 as all progress stopped. He did at least another 2 years on the single before moving up. At the time there was 1 parachute operator in CNS, in a C182, the pilot had been "working" for him for 2 years, ON THE DOLE. (He is now a NB Capt in Aus) I was driving a tour bus along with other jobs. I met heaps of "pilots" working in bars.

1993 - I got disillusioned, went overseas looking for work, and it was even harder than finding work in Australia. Did a bunch of other jobs for 3 years, (Ski Fields, Fish Factory, Landscaping, Bars, Private Yachts) had a heap of fun, but it didn't stop me from wanting to come home and fly aeroplanes.

1996 - I came home, (I was 25yo) spent a bunch of money getting my CPL/IR current, started chasing the work, was doing ok, having fun. Most importantly, I was gaining experience. Started studying again, finished my ATPL subjects, did an Aviation Degree, tried to get myself in the best position I could to be employed. Things started to move pretty quickly, Turbine jobs, Regionals etc, VB started up, Even QF were employing!!! Apparently there was a pilot shortage. Us guys in the bush struggled to get any traction with the "J Curve" regionals, (watched all the 2 year instructors get the QLink, Hazo's/Kendall jobs) but the FNQ/NT/WA operators were employing, then 2001 happened.

May 2001 - FlightWest ceased operation.

September 2001 - Kendalls, Hazo's and Ansett ceased operation

It took about 9 months for things to start moving again, REX was borne out of Kendall/Hazo's, VB expanded rapidly, Impulse became Q Link(2001) then Jetstar(2004)

2002-2003. We all moved up the ladder, some quickly (VB/QF, REX, Eastern, Sunstate etc), some just one rung at a time, JetCraft/MacAir/PelAir/RFDS. It was very hard watching some pilots jump straight into QF/VB etc, when you couldn't get a look in, but, that's life really. Maybe it was ME?

Had some great times, flew turbines, moved into a Jet, did some international flying, made some great friends, met a girl, cracked $60k/year, life was good.

2007 - Got a job in a "J Curve" city, on a shiny Jet, good money, not too much work, quick command, life was good for 2 years.

2009 - GFC - Company went bust, UnEmployed, lost a bunch of money in entitlements, but worst still, I HAD NO JOB. Worldwide, no one was employing due to the GFC. Was 5 months out of work, paid to do a SIM to keep current, finally found a job overseas. Left my girlfriend at home and moved to a 3rd world country I new nothing about to fly to places I had never heard of.

Dec 2009 - Company went Bust, UnEmployed again!!! Luckily, things in Australia were looking up,

April 2010 - Got a job back home, moved to big "J Curve City", enjoyed life, got married, had kids.

2010 - 2014 - Domestic Narrow Body ops

2014-2018 - WideBody International

2018- March 2020 - Narrow Body Capt

March 2020 - Current - JobKeeper Recipient/Landscape Gardener's assistant.

So, there is my 30 year Resume of experience in the aviation industry. So YES, I lived through '89, 2001, 2007 and COVID, and all the other crap in between. There have been some good times and bad times, many ups, but just as many downs.

I can assure you though, the 3 years I did back in the '90's were I didn't fly, not a day went past when I didn't think about flying and how I was going to get back in an aeroplane.

Also, maybe if I had persevered in the early '90's, not taken a break, I may have been in a few thousand hours better off for the employment boom that happened in the mid to late '90's? I may have got a Regional/Airline Gig and subsequently been 5-10 years ahead of where I am currently? I lost a lot of sleep over that for many years, now I just accept that as part of my life.

I've worked for "the worst operator in GA", and I've worked for Ok operators, some were even "good", but, I always got paid. Sometimes it wasn't as good as it should have been, sometimes the aircraft weren't as good as they could have been, but they were legal to fly.

I feel for you, there doesn't look like there is much of a future right now, but if you decide to take a break now and want to come back to it, you may miss an opportunity when the music starts again. Also, due to Covid, regular jobs are a bit thin on the ground in the big cities. I have spoken to Pilots/Flight Attendants that are having a really hard time getting any decent long term jobs, and I certainly don't recommend Landscaping!!

Well done for reaching out for advice, as I mentioned in my last post #60, there are a number of avenues you could pursue for assistance, please consider these as I am confident they will help you get through these tough times.

It is sad that you are still banging around in some of the same airframes that were "old" when I was in GA, but you have to put your trust in the engineers to keep them serviceable, and yourself to make sure the defects are reported and rectified. This is one of the most important lessons you can learn, because that same the pressure is still there in the airlines.

Good luck to you with your decision. PM me if you like, I'm free all day (my landscaping boss has gone on holidays ;-0)


My story is pretty much the same.

[plotplot]

That was an excellent read Roj, thank you for taking the time to write that. And what an interesting story.

Definitely a reality check; if I stepped down now to wait it out I would be trying to jump back in the pool and compete with a LOT more guys with 2500 hours and plenty of multi to go with it when that time comes. However you did mention that you yourself and a lot of others from the bush struggled to get work initially when hiring started, due to over-experience I imagine? 4000-5000 TT and a few thousand multi sure does sound over-experienced in that regard, compared to 2 year instructors. Though I'm not at all interested in airlines, so surely the more experience the better in some other sectors i.e. aeromedical, corporate?

[Roj approved]

No worries Plotplot,

Kinda fun going back through my career like that. Lots of ups and downs.Some missed opportunities, but still better than having a real job.

I think you have worked it out for yourself. If you want to be a Pilot post Covid, I would be best to stick with being a pilot during Covid. Don't get hung up on what other Pilots are doing, that'll just get you wound up in a ball of resentment. This business is just a big game of snakes and ladders, the trick is steady progress and always be ready for the next step. Make sure you are applying for the jobs that interest you, Aeromed etc. But also consider other areas too, Night Freight is the best Job I had, I'd go back to it tomorrow if I could.

The Bush charter guy v City Instructor is a problem that has been around since Pontius was a Pilot, forget about it.

Use this time to finish your IR/ATPL's subjects if you don't have them, if you are bored, do some other studies, enjoy the flying you are doing now, it really is the best you will ever do.

Good luck
Roj

[Checkboard]

Joined the RAAF, got kicked out in '86 (my fault). Worked selling booze for Ritchies Supermarkets, Started instructing, '89 pilot dispute so got stuck there for three years, got a job with jetCraft, then Ansett. Lost job at Ansett in 2001. Unemployed for two years, moved to UK, paid a bunch to transfer licence and endorsement, job with easyJet for the last 17 years. Survived GFC redundancy talks and now forced onto 50% contract in COVID.

Certainly not the worst career - but still a few bumps along the way.

[Oddball77]

If you’re still in your 20’s get out and get a degree/trade and find a real job. Fact is, here in Asia guys are literally sitting in the RHS of a jet at 200 hrs TT, so this notion that you need thousands of hours to get a airline job is BS.

[AOGspanner]

Prestigious airports? That's an interesting phrase. I'm thankful for those pilots that want to do the job. I wonder why however. Not physically taxing true but the hours and politics seem crippling compared to other jobs.
What jobs are you comparing the hours and politics too? I think any pilot who has done other jobs would have quite the opposite view.

[Skippy69]

If you’re still in your 20’s get out and get a degree/trade and find a real job. Fact is, here in Asia guys are literally sitting in the RHS of a jet at 200 hrs TT, so this notion that you need thousands of hours to get a airline job is BS.


Which airline is in the next couple of years take a 200 hour FO? Unless you're a local and have nice lips, that's not a reality for Aussie pilots to my knowledge.

Happy to be informed though

[lucille]

If you’re still in your 20’s get out and get a degree/trade and find a real job. Fact is, here in Asia guys are literally sitting in the RHS of a jet at 200 hrs TT, so this notion that you need thousands of hours to get a airline job is BS.

True, but they are locals working in airlines with a very strong push to nationalise their pilot body. The reason they are employing bare CPL holders is that there are no other local pilots available.

This will give you a laugh.....In the mid 70s, armed with a bare CPL and 200 hours, I drove North looking for that elusive first job. Door knocking along the way. Came across a Twin Otter operator who ran an RPT service with two pilots. I was told to keep driving north because 4000 hours was their minimum experience level to be considered suitable as an F/O on a Twin Otter. No, not a typo, Four thousand hours. That lesson was one of the reasons I left Oz a few years later, never to return and without any doubt was the best career move.

For bottom feeders like me, a career is aviation in Oz was all about luck. With no rich Daddy and no contacts all that was available in Oz were the crumbs and leftovers - grim jobs that no one else wanted. Lucky to even get paid some weeks. Looks like some things never change in GA.

So, back to the OPs question about pushing on. There is no answer, if you’re a hopeless dreamer like most of us, you just keep plodding along always looking anywhere and everywhere for an opportunity until eventually you get lucky and the cards fall our way....or for the unlucky ones - they don’t.
Other than having a rich or connected daddy, there is no career silver bullet in this game.

[Xeptu]

Any of them in here by any chance?

Yes, I am a product of pre 89 but more importantly the recession that followed Black Wednesday, it did its worst in 90-91. it shaped me and played a part in every decision I made ever since and still today. I became well aware of how the aviation industry is effected every time someone stubs their tow. I retired early from the airlines, still fly my own ship mostly for the family business, rarely for pleasure and never for anyone else. I love flying, always have since Neil and Buzz stepped on the moon, but hate the airline industry for all the reasons you are discovering. All I can say if it's your passion, chin up, eyes on the ball, keep moving forward.

[4forward8back]

I stopped pushing and threw in the towel.

My story:
2001 - CPL and first job (piston sightseeing) for a horrible, dangerous, dodgy operator. I learned a lot about self preservation from that gig.

2002 - Piston charter/survey for a good operator

2005 - I became chief pilot (HOO these days). Like others have said, you do look back at the GA years fondly. I could fill a book with the stories.

2007 - Said company goes bust and I have to quickly find work. I ended up in the corporate world for a large organisation and suddenly saw that I could make a whole lot more money for a whole lot less time and effort. A good job was easy to find, a CPL is still (well it was then) a well regarded qualification outside of the industry. I also found that the skills I had gained in GA were very sought after outside of aviation and easily transferable to an office job. I progressed quickly inside the company. Also, living in the big smoke for the first time came with all of it's associated benefits.

2008-2013 - I actually look back at this time as the most enjoyable of my career. Working an office job can come with great conditions and it can easily become secondary in life, making room for other interests. I always found that flying became priorities 1, 2 & 3 in life, I was never able to succesfully balance anything else. I negotiated going part time at work, 3 days a week and still making more than I had been as chief pilot so the mortgage was covered. The other 4 days a week I was able to do contract/casual flying to satisfy the passion and as a bit of a side earner. I was able to pick and choose the flying (and more importantly, operator) and really enjoyed it. I also met the lovely and got married. Throughout that time, I still envisaged the cockpit as my long term career.

2014 - Wife gets pregnant. I desperately wanted to be an involved father and present husband. Long story short - Having seen many relationships break down because of the pressures of aviation, I came to the conclusion that I could be the husband/father I wanted to be OR fly. I couldn't do both, I had to choose. I chose family and walked away from aviation. I went back full time at the corporate job and wound down the flying. Of course, as the world works, I got two pilot job offers soon after making that decision. Both were excellent flying, dream jobs, the stuff I'd always wanted and had worked years toward attaining. But both invloved long periods of time away, I said no to both, that HURT.

2014 - I grew to absolutely hate the office job, there are just as many c--ts outside of aviation as in it and if you happen to work for one your work life can be s--t. I also desperately missed the flying and resented not being able to take the job offers. The black dog grabbed hold hard, 2014 was a bad year.

2015-2016 - Absolutely love raising the little bub. I'm super involved, present for every single milestone and extremely grateful for the choices I've made. Thankfully I managed get away from the bad boss and to also hold a small flying job with a great operator. While only sporadic flying, it kept the hand in and was the very best flying you could do (in my opinion).

2017 - Kid two arrived, again I miss nothing. But that was the end of flying, not enough time and other pressures. I was still hating the office job, but it's paying the bills and comes with great conditions which support the family and allow my wife to follow her passion.

2017-2019 - Move into a new corporate job, this time within the aviation industry. Now we're talking. I still get the money and conditions, but get to be involved in aviation. Sadly, not at the pointy end, but I get to talk to people who are.....so can live it/love it vicariously.

2020 - The world implodes. Thankfully I have other experience to fall back on. I quickly picked up work back in the corporate world. It's boring, but it's easy and a it's a job (grateful for that at the moment!). Plus I've spent a heap of time at home with the family.

Do I miss flying? Well, I am still legal to fly, though it has been 8 months... and I still visit pprune so.... GOD YES, I miss it dearly, it's my passion. I still look up with severely green eyes every time one of you lucky bastards flies over. But I made my choices conciously and I am happy with them. I can't envisage circumstance that would allow me to go back full time, but you never know.....that's why I stay current(ish)...

That's my story, it is up and down. It suits my strengths and limitations, but probably wouldn't suit others. I just thought I'd add it to show a different path. It was also enjoyable to put it down on a page, so thanks for that.

[aviation_enthus]

I think we all came into this industry with stars in our eyes and endless optimism. But eventually reality grinds that down to more a more realistic version of life.

I think the advice of some the other posters is very important. No matter what industry you are in you’ll find d***heads. No matter what industry you’re in, some companies will try and rip you off (wages). No matter what industry you’re in, GFC/COVID/Ansett style collapse will ruin your “expected” career path. No matter what industry you’re in you’ll find companies that try and cut corners.

So if you’re trying to avoid those things and think it’s just an aviation problem, I’m sorry but it’s everywhere. The grass is not greener on the other side.

I’ve also gone through periods were I wanted to escape:
- CPL and 200 hours, not enough for a job. Took me about 18 months to get a start and only because of a contact in the industry.
- trying to pay off my training loan and thinking how many more years it would take me on a rubbish GA wage. If I could have sold my licence to pay it off I would!!
- watching QF stop hiring in 2008 and then waiting until 2017 for applications to open again. When I started out, QF was the proverbial “light at the end of the tunnel” to keep me pushing forward. So having zero chance of getting in was a tough pill to swallow. Naive I know.... 😂
- having a good regional gig (LHS/training) and then having the company go bust. Then being forced to move sideways into another regional gig at a company I never wanted to work for. Considering every move I’d made so far was progression, this was frustrating.
- now being overseas and watching the chance of command evaporate due to the COVID downturn. Now means returning to Aus when hiring commences and probably joining JQ/etc 5+ years behind mates in the seniority list.

I look back at all these (minor compared to some) issues and I’m more than happy I stuck around. I wouldn’t change it for anything. But I do look to the future with the expectation I’m going to need something on the side to keep me happy and challenged, because I’m finding with more experience a lot of the challenges are now easy to deal with.

At the end of the day, this industry goes up and down about every 10 years. You’ll also have your health to manage (keeping a class 1). But it can also be a lot of fun. Flying all over Australia (or the world) is definitely an option. Having staff travel to use for family holidays is a game changer, we’ve been to dozens of places that we would never have otherwise been with kids. The pay is reasonable once you make it to regional LHS or jet f/o.

I’d suggest finding something else to take your mind off the things you don’t like about your current job. Family, renovating a house, plan a bucket list holiday, taking up a sport, etc. We all need “distractions” to get us through the tough times at whatever job we end up in.

Good luck.

[dr dre]

Which airline is in the next couple of years take a 200 hour FO? Unless you're a local and have nice lips, that's not a reality for Aussie pilots to my knowledge.

Happy to be informed though

QF Group Academy is still recruiting for cadets to start early next year. Rex has a cadet course ready to start before the end of this year I believe. I guess by the time they’re finished training the respective airlines are expecting to need them.

It was clear airlines were moving towards a substantial cadet/academy model of pilot recruitment before this downturn hit, and they seem to want to continue that when recruitment restarts. Obviously it’ll be a long term investment, with the cadets expected to remain with their airline for years post training, of which the Covid situation will only be for a small proportion of their career.

[Roj approved]

So Plotplot,

What did you decide to do?

[lucille]

So Plotplot,

What did you decide to do?

I started to write a jokey flippant answer to your question but paused for a second. It really is a grim time for pretty much everyone in aviation today. Not just pilots. There is simply no where in the world one can go to get a flying job.

To everyone doing it tough out there my thoughts and best wishes go with you. I doubt there has ever been a worse time. Fingers crossed things will pick up sooner rather than later.

[plotplot]

So Plotplot,

What did you decide to do?

Just taking it day by day, Roj.

Pretty much once a week now I envisage my most dramatic resignation, but something usually brings me back down to Earth eventually. Like thought of how lucky I am to be even working at all let alone flying. And what would I even do if I did walk out. I left my last career for a reason, and I don't think it would take long before I started watching the planes overhead with envy as I did before.

It's purely the toxic management culture that leads to wanting to leave, and I don't want to let one company be the reason I leave aviation for good because I know I will regret it.

That said, another 5 years of this (quite realistic i feel) is something I'm not sure I'm up for. Every day still seems to bring more bad news at the moment.

Day by day.

[Sunfish]

e A sense of humour is a great help......

[Roj approved]

G'day Plot plot,

I don't think it would take long before I started watching the planes overhead with envy as I did before.


You are infected with the same "Disease" that keeps the rest of us going through thick and thin, no other job will cure this unfortunately.

As Sunfish mentions, a sense of humour will help, and not taking yourself or others too seriously also.

All the best mate, and rest assured, you are not alone, I believe this thread has been helpful for many of us grappling with the strange times we are living through.

cheers

Roj

[halas]

Remember complaiing to a mate about all the f-its i have met in aviation. Seems to be full of 'em.
He replied..Ha! You should try the advertising industry! We have the most and best paid f-wits around.

halas

[engine out]

My whole aviation career I’ve been hearing from the people how the grass is greener somewhere else. Turns out it never is. It maybe different grass but still has the same weeds throughout it.

[Squawk7700]

My whole aviation career I’ve been hearing from the people how the grass is greener somewhere else. Turns out it never is. It maybe different grass but still has the same weeds throughout it.

I often discuss this with a friend of mine. He was at Ansett on the 76 domestic and he said that it was the best job he has ever had and he enjoyed every single minute of it for the years that he was there. He looked forward to going to work every time he got out of bed.

I’d bet that many can only wish they felt that way!

[Lookleft]

He was at Ansett on the 76 domestic and he said that it was the best job he has ever had and he enjoyed every single minute of it for the years that he was there. He looked forward to going to work every time he got out of bed.

Exactly the way I felt but I was on the 73. For those who can hang in there until this crisis passes I think you will be able to look back and see that this is the worst that can happen in aviation where every airline in the world is affected. Airlines will go through downturns in the future but when compared to this one it will be a walk in the park.

[outnabout]

The fabulous Bob Tair says:
"If you are not having fun, then why are you doing it?"
I can understand going through some Sugar Honey Iced Tea to get to an end goal, but if you don't know what the end goal is any more, and you aren't enjoying where you are, then it is deffo time for some soul searching, which it sounds like this is where you are at.
No job is ever worth your health - physical or mental.
Stay safe, and look after you.