BA wheelie 777 @heathow

[Cloudtopper]

Given the video does not include whether any failures occurred prior to touch or during the roll out, if this was intentional, the attention gathered by most points to an amazing landing in some quarters ......

Then again, the FCTM alludes to something different .

https://twitter.com/BigJetTVLIVE/status/1302964718861266944?s=20

Credit to Bigjettv for his video.

[Barcli]

He will have had the phone call from one of the bullies aka Training Managers by now. Probably in the sim tomorrow......

[Contact Approach]

Perhaps He/She is DCT CR so gave it their all "one last time".

[Pugilistic Animus]

I wonder if the PIC will be doing the carpet dance soon.

[ohitsro]

That was pretty sweet.

[morton]

Ex-Vulcan pilot showing how long he can hold the nosewheels off?
Probably in the sim tomorrow...... to show them how to do it?

[blind pew]

Did that often to clear at block 17 high speed with atc permission which saved us 5 mins taxy time without any problems..but then again I didn't work for big airlines anymore.

[Mr Good Cat]

If it's a Captain on his CR final flight, I'm sure the FO will appreciate that it may have started the process of making it their final flight too.

[Tashengurt]

As a layman, may I ask what's wrong with that? Didn't it used to be called aerodynamic braking or similar?

[tcasblue]

Let me guess........auto brakes zero so the nose doesn’t come down trying to slam onto the pavement(sort of like the 727-200 was).

This was the kind of rollout one could get on the 747 on a regular basis.

[FlyingStone]

Spoilers take care of that. They ironically only fully deploy after NLG touchdown in the case of B777 as it seems.

[Locked door]

It isn’t an approved technique because it invalidates the landing performance calculation (although that particular runway is long) plus it significantly increases the risk of a tail strike as elevator authority decreases. Tyres on tarmac with the lift dumped (spoilers and low aoa) produce an order of magnitude more braking force than aerodynamic braking. It can help on a slippery grass runway but not on tarmac.

Why anyone would do it is beyond me, especially when LIFO+ includes MOP and disciplinaries.

[Jet II]

Not really - the criteria for automatic deployment is:

The main landing gear is on the ground
The speedbrake lever is in the ARMED position
Both left and right thrust resolver angles are not at the takeoff position
Both thrust resolver angle signals are valid.

MM 27-62-00

[michaelbinary]

well it may well not be according to procedure, but it was a sweet landing regardless if it was his last. :-)

[Musket90]

Perhaps landing 27R and parking in T5 reduces taxi time if able to stay on the runway longer at higher speed and vacate near the opposite end provided of course ATC are happy with it.

[Barcli]

Perhaps landing 27R and parking in T5 reduces taxi time if able to stay on the runway longer at higher speed and vacate near the opposite end provided of course ATC are happy with it.
Yes it does but you still do not hold the nosewheel off the ground. You land in accordance with SOP,s - it will have triggered a SESMA event to which the crew may have to justify their actions

[capngrog]

I thought that the narration was every bit as good as the landing.

Cheers,
Grog

[OldLurker]

From the video, the manoeuvre seems to me to be elegantly executed. The flare attitude was held exactly, despite diminishing elevator authority, until the nose was lowered. There was no danger of a tail-strike at any time. The runway is long, and if ATC didn't need them to get off quickly because there was someone coming behind, they had no need for urgent speed reduction; rather the contrary, if this was 27R, as T5 is at the far end.

Contrary to SOPs, no doubt, and from what others are saying, maybe in BA's world that will get them shot, if only to discourage other pilots. But it's a pity, just the same. BA should be proud to have such a skilful pilot.

[Spooky 2]

Amazing that a landing this benign would get you before any higher power at BA. Rather pathetic in the big picture. Nice landing BTW.

[Dannyboy39]

From the video, the manoeuvre seems to me to be elegantly executed. The flare attitude was held exactly, despite diminishing elevator authority, until the nose was lowered. There was no danger of a tail-strike at any time. The runway is long, and if ATC didn't need them to get off quickly because there was someone coming behind, they had no need for urgent speed reduction; rather the contrary, if this was 27R, as T5 is at the far end.

Contrary to SOPs, no doubt, and from what others are saying, maybe in BA's world that will get them shot, if only to discourage other pilots. But it's a pity, just the same. BA should be proud to have such a skilful pilot.
Skillful but stupid if in the unlikely event there was any intent - how much to get a Boeing field service team out to repair a tail strike and design it? Clue: it's a lot. Not to mention the ground time.

[H Peacock]

For goodness sake, it was a skilful bit of handling with absolutely no chance of a tail-strike. As the tailplane authority reduces then the nose is going to lower anyway!!! At no stage did the Nu attitude increase beyond that used during the flare. It may be slightly non-SOP, but given they were going all the way to the end I maintain still good airmanship.

[cheese bobcat]

It's called aerodynamic braking; it's free and very effective. No doubt the captain had at some time flown the Vulcan.

CB

[WhatShortage]

From the video, the manoeuvre seems to me to be elegantly executed. The flare attitude was held exactly, despite diminishing elevator authority, until the nose was lowered. There was no danger of a tail-strike at any time. The runway is long, and if ATC didn't need them to get off quickly because there was someone coming behind, they had no need for urgent speed reduction; rather the contrary, if this was 27R, as T5 is at the far end.

Contrary to SOPs, no doubt, and from what others are saying, maybe in BA's world that will get them shot, if only to discourage other pilots. But it's a pity, just the same. BA should be proud to have such a skilful pilot.
Many crashes are the loose end of a "tried to do something to show off because i am really cool", the airlines don't want that. I'd bet my neck you're not even a pilot.

[8che]

It’s not a Vulcan it’s a B777.

From the Boeing FCTM;

“Do not attempt to ​hold the nose wheels off the runway. Holding the nose up​ after touchdown for ​
aerodynamic braking is not an effective braking technique and results in high nose ​
gear sink rates upon​ brake application and​ reduced braking effectiveness”

[Meester proach]

It’s not a Vulcan it’s a B777.

From the Boeing FCTM;

“Do not attempt to ​hold the nose wheels off the runway. Holding the nose up​ after touchdown for ​aerodynamic braking is not an effective braking technique and results in high nose ​
gear sink rates upon​ brake application and​ reduced braking effectiveness”

Spot on. Although the 80 year olds will tell us it was ok on the Lightnings ...

Who is that annoying bloke doing the commentary ? Like Del Boys brother who obviously doesn’t get it either

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Elegant as it may be, I wouldn’t like to have been sitting in 1C when the elevator eventually ran out of juice and the NLG came down. I would expect it to have been an almighty thump centred on the First class cabin.

Its a fine balance - you either put it down gently, or it puts itself down somewhat less so.

[Feathers McGraw]

Where is this video? If it's one of Jerry's multi-hour things then finding the right point isn't too easy. Anyone got a link?

[QNH1013]

I am one. Nose wheel held off unusually long after touchdown, should be de-rotating and 'flying' the nose on to the runway and not holding off and waiting for elevator authority to lose effectiveness so the nose drops down on to the runway. HOWEVER, I have no knowledge of the circumstances of that landing or any knowledge of factors that may explain it, ie training flight, unintentional technique, weather or technical factors. Landing procedures are standard according to type and not modified according to personal mood or previous flight or aircraft experience. Aircraft body aerodynamic braking is not an approved procedure that is taught or used in the Boeing Flight Crew Training manual.

[Mikehotel152]

Just a bit of harmless fun, surely. I can’t see there being a tail strike risk and if folk are so concerned about the nose wheel dropping firmly onto the runway, I suspect that the pilot’s main gear touchdown suggests he would have done that smoothly as well.

[PoppaJo]

FOs who attempt this will get a serving shortly after from myself.

There is a reason why Airbus advises forward sidestick below 100kts. The same reason why the nosewheel is required on the ground during landing.

I’m not one for normally elevating my chances of tea and biscuits with the training department and I’m sure many others wouldn’t either.

[Pugilistic Animus]

It does illustrate that jets are still airplanes.
​​​​

[clark y]

Agree with Smokey, Looks like full backstick until it ran out of elevator. The nose falls a long way in B777.

[capngrog]

If it had run out of elevator authority, the nose would have dropped with some violence. That did not happen in this instance, otherwise, there would have been a damage-incident-accident report. "full backstick until it ran out of elevator" would have been a rookie mistake, and I don't think that this pilot was a rookie. Of course there are a lot of "computer pilots" about, and if it's not on the sim program ...
Cheers,
Grog

[Meester proach]

Personally ,
I think they were probably distracted by the fact it appears the auto spoiler deployment - wasn’t .
Took their eye off the ball briefly .

eventual nosewheel contact was ok, so d be surprised if this led to any disciplinary

[Meester proach]

FOs who attempt this will get a serving shortly after from myself.

There is a reason why Airbus advises forward sidestick below 100kts. The same reason why the nosewheel is required on the ground during landing.

I’m not one for normally elevating my chances of tea and biscuits with the training department and I’m sure many others wouldn’t either.

Yes, don’t do “ forward sidestick “ or forward any stick on a Boeing unless you want nosewheel damage

[wiggy]

How many triple 7 rated pilots on this thread? Just asking.

Oh there are a few..

As has been stated the Boeing "advice" is to de-rotate promptly but smoothly after main wheel touchdown, not doing so has the potential degrade stopping performance and also has been pointed out there can be a bit of a problem if you hold off so long you start to run out of pitch authority.

[AuroraAustralis]

Pretty cool use of aerodynamic braking. I don't see an issue with it. Unless someone can point out that it violates BA's SOP. Locally I see the firefighting heavies do this very often landing. It's amazing how long they can get the nosewheel to stay up.

[lederhosen]

I have experienced something similar with a very light 737. A soft touchdown was followed by an uncommanded nose up when the spoilers extended. It needed an unusual amount of forward push to get the nose down. The combination of a low load and a lack of lots of recent landings might be an alternative explanation rather than the pilot flying deliberately holding the nose up. At the end of the video you can see what looks to be a fairly small input, change to nearly full up elevator as they derotate. But you cannot see the elevator position during and shortly after the flare.

[PoppaJo]

Yes, don’t do “ forward sidestick “ or forward any stick on a Boeing unless you want nosewheel damage
My example was around Airbus and directional control, but my point stands.

There are no advantages using pitch control via this method for a tricycle. Let the brakes do the work, get the nose down. I also prefer the view down the runway rather than into the sky. Regardless, the manufacturers manual advises against it.

If it’s a retrenchment signing off flight above then good luck to them.

[wiggy]

Pretty cool use of aerodynamic braking. I don't see an issue with it. Unless someone can point out that it violates BA's SOP. Locally I see the firefighting heavies do this very often landing. It's amazing how long they can get the nosewheel to stay up.

Holding the nosewheel off is contrary to the "advice" given by Boeing in the Flight Crew Training Manual, which is part of the BA document set for those on the type.

I'm not sure management will get that steamed up about that landing but it might have triggered a monitoring event and it is I guess possible somebody in the monitoring team might make a phone call to those inolved or issue a generic reminder....

[The Blu Riband]

They'll all be doing it now

[Check Airman]

Not bad. This guy did a better job though. :p

https://youtu.be/lowrM-780tg

[RetiredBA/BY]

I always landed that way on the B747, it was easy to do on the B743 & B744. Fortunately I worked for companies without plonkers in the management and training departments.
Plonkers, really?

When I was a trainer I reminded some pilots that the airline pays them very good money to fly THEIR aircraft in THEIR approved and trained manner.

Any competent captain could, should be able to hold the nosewheel off (Its hardly difficult, used to do it on some military types where it was OK, in fact, required ) but so far as I recall , 73,75,76 it is NOT Boeing procedure. and does run a risk, perhaps small, of a tailstrike or heavy nosewheel arrival, also with possibility of fuselage wrinkling. Didn't an American airline bend a 75 in Madeira recently?

So, fly the aircraft as required by your company SOP s, if you start variations and something does go wrong you are in a very needlessy, difficulty situation.

Whats the point of going out on a limb?

[olster]

I agree with retired BA/by. Boeing FCTM guidance is to not use aerodynamic braking due potential tail strike, invalid landing performance, directional control etc. Aerodynamic braking is a technique historically used on fighter aircraft. Fine, horses for courses. Finally, I don’t see the high skill commented on here. This is easy to do but for above reasons is just wrong. Airlines are businesses, fly the aircraft the way Boeing and the sops dictate. Training managers are not normally plonkers and they would be right to call this.

[fulminn]

Yes it does but you still do not hold the nosewheel off the ground. You land in accordance with SOP,s - it will have triggered a SESMA event to which the crew may have to justify their actions

BA looks worse than Ryanair even on this facts then.
You have to be scared of being a pilot there? If so I'm scared of being a passenger on that flights....

[Private jet]

Perhaps he (or she) had enough of the "bump...bump...bump...bump" of the nosegear over the centreline lights..... :)

[MaxReheat]

I recall, many moons ago, VC-10s doing 'rollers' (touch-and-goes to magenta-line generation) where the landing attitude was held throughout the entire 'roll'; the nosewheel never came anywhere near the runway.

[Count von Altibar]

Barry Sheene eat your heart out that's a great wheelie, like it!

[blind pew]

from those half a flare and thump it in brigade. Supposedly manufacturer's recommendation- normally blokes ..at least girlies generally do a decent landing.
ps have I mentioned stand on the brakes?

[PlusNet]

Lovely to see a good 'stick and rudder' man in action!

[Wirbelsturm]

No, it's not SOP.

Yes, you do have to 'fly' the nose wheel on otherwise the effect of spoiler deployment plus reverse thrust will spill the G+T in First.

Yes, you WILL run out of elevator authority if you hold it off for too long.

No, it isn't an F15 which benefited greatly from looking like a 'cool' teenager on a BMX, the 777 doesn't have the same 'slab' underbelly profile so it won't work.

Still, looked like a pretty nice landing all the same.

Yes, I am 777 rated thank you. ;)

[Mullah Kintyre]

To the guy on about "no plonkers" and wheelies galore, please name the airline so people can avoid it.

The Boeing manuals are not always as enlightening as you'd like however I think the spoilers didn't fully-deploy initially because of the body-angle. Nothing to do with the nose wheels being off the ground.

Yes, 777 rated also. From the FCTM:

Fly the nose wheels smoothly onto the runway without delay. Do not attempt to hold the nose wheels off the runway. Holding the nose up after touchdown for aerodynamic braking is not an effective braking technique and results in high nose gear sink rates upon brake application and reduced braking effectiveness.
If the nose wheels are not promptly lowered to the runway, braking and steering capabilities are significantly degraded and no drag benefit is gained.
Hmmm. I wonder how he computed how much runway it needs if you do a wheelie landing instead of the Boeing-recommended method.

It definitely looks like he ran out of elevator effectiveness at full back column. It would've been a hell of a knock when the nose gear finally met the runway. Not cool, and after such a nice touchdown, too. Shame. Still, at least he made the threshold! :ooh:

PS: who is the complete pudknocker doing the commentary? What a knob.

[olster]

Firstly, the video is not an example of great skill, it is easy to do. Secondly and interestingly why do some admire / promote going against the guidance / instruction written by the manufacturer and its test pilot body. The technique employed here is completely wrong; do not use aerodynamic braking say Boeing. I know that many pilots have gargantuan egos but I do not understand the risk / reward here. If BA or any airline pay your salary just do the job the way the company recommends. In this case sops backed up by FCTM.

[srjumbo747]

Come on folks. You’re all just jealous. I’ve been over twenty years trying to do that.
Get back in your armchairs and just enjoy watching it again and again.
if I can do that ok my final landing I’ll be chuffed!

[Spooky 2]

Here is one.

[Spooky 2]

Here is one.

Not uncomon when working with Boeing IPs that we never let the nose wheel touch down on a planned touch and go. Don't construe my comments to mean that the pilot should hold off until the nose falls through as speed bleeds off, with the possible ensuing hard touchdown. as that is not what i meant. Sometimes airmanship is in the eye of the beholder:)

Sometimes you need to reflect on the fact that the FCTM, which by the way is not an FAA approved document, is written with ane on the lowest common denominator and taught as such, How many tail strikes have occurred while using this technique? I'm not recommending this, just taken back by all the pontification.

[olster]

No pontification and not jealous at all. The criterion for a good landing is not necessarily a smooth one. Direct quote from the FCTM. It may or may not be approved by the FAA but it is the go to document for line training, Boeing technique etc. I remain baffled why anyone would do it differently or go against manufacturers advice written in clear , unambiguous language by test pilots. Bizarre.

[srjumbo747]

No pontification and not jealous at all. The criterion for a good landing is not necessarily a smooth one. Direct quote from the FCTM. It may or may not be approved by the FAA but it is the go to document for line training, Boeing technique etc. I remain baffled why anyone would do it differently or go against manufacturers advice written in clear , unambiguous language by test pilots. Bizarre.
Yes you are jealous, and if not then you should be! Looking at your other posts and the fact you’ve been banned from PPRUNE you should get back in your armchair.
The main wheels kissed the runway.
I’m jealous and if you aren’t then you’re not much fun! Simples! X

[olster]

Look mate if I say I’m not jealous I really am not. After 40 plus years flying professionally I have had good landings and not so good landings like most of us I suppose. Either way within minutes I had forgotten about it and tried not to hit anything while taxiing to the stand. The point being I did not hang my ego or adjust my status to the last landing. I was also a trainer for 25 years ( yeah, big deal) and I tried to promote correct practice as per company / Boeing procedure. To go against that is asking for trouble.

As for the low blow about ‘being banned’ I could not give a toss. This was due to an innocuous remark I made about the Swedish teenager, nothing to do with this thread. The moderator went down the standard pc route and banned me. It’s hardly a prison sentence and did not bother me one jot. Freedom of speech, eh?

Why not stick to the thread rather than creepily checking on my history? By the way I spent 10 years on the aircraft you use as a user name. Try landing like that and you will run out of runway very quickly. The misinformation on this site is potentially dangerous. As a professional pilot you are paid to do the job properly. It is not fun, it is a job that you have a professional responsibility to carry out correctly. Simples.

[Wirbelsturm]

Thread creep anyone???

(yawn)

:}

[Meester proach]

Look mate if I say I’m not jealous I really am not. After 40 plus years flying professionally I have had good landings and not so good landings like most of us I suppose. Either way within minutes I had forgotten about it and tried not to hit anything while taxiing to the stand. The point being I did not hang my ego or adjust my status to the last landing. I was also a trainer for 25 years ( yeah, big deal) and I tried to promote correct practice as per company / Boeing procedure. To go against that is asking for trouble.

As for the low blow about ‘being banned’ I could not give a toss. This was due to an innocuous remark I made about the Swedish teenager, nothing to do with this thread. The moderator went down the standard pc route and banned me. It’s hardly a prison sentence and did not bother me one jot. Freedom of speech, eh?

Why not stick to the thread rather than creepily checking on my history? By the way I spent 10 years on the aircraft you use as a user name. Try landing like that and you will run out of runway very quickly. The misinformation on this site is potentially dangerous. As a professional pilot you are paid to do the job properly. It is not fun, it is a job that you have a professional responsibility to carry out correctly. Simples.

Don’t worry friend - that’s why it’s in the spotters section , they probably don’t even have any idea what an FCTM is, let alone what’s in it

[olster]

Cheers Meester proach!!

[White Van Driver]

I have done the same as the video a couple of times, unintentionally and thankfully not to the same degree. Trying to land the nose smoothly but a bit heavy handed on the back pressure, keeps the nose up further than one had intended. results in a wheelie as seen, but no issue, relax the back pressure and down she comes, just try to catch it if it's coming down from any height.

I would say as near as certain the crew didn't intentionally wheelie it down the runway. And maybe an evens chance that anything came out of it (they may have reported it, or it may have been flagged by sesma which could have resulted in a quick chat with the safety department but i doubt any further action). also remember we are operating with a lot less recency than normal. 777 pilots used to flying 6 trips a month are down to around 1 a month now.

[spanner the cat]

It least everyone will have had their backs cracked nicely as the nose finished de-rotating. :}

[dicks-airbus]

Perhaps they had a nose gear steering problem indication :cool:? We've had aircraft coming in with 90° NG and so in that case it is the best to keep it up as long as possible.... :)

[Glorified Dus Briver]

Video appears to have been removed from the post. Can someone please link me to the actual video?

[WB627]

My Dad (Ex RAF QFI) said any one you can walk away from is a good one and excellent if you can use the aircraft again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iecHHrq2hQg

1 out of two is OK and he did walk away with minor injuries

I "landed" (SLF) at Newcastle in a BEA Trident before they extended the runway, to say it was firm was a bit of an understatement. Departure next day, not an empty seat on the plane, involved a running start from the taxiway.

[casablanca]

How many triple 7 rated pilots on this thread? Just asking.
had logged 6000 hours as captain on ac, although no longer current on it.
I don't find the video outrageous but in general as the fctm specifies it is not a very effective form of braking but the main problem is as you slow down the elevator effectiveness reduces and the nose wheel will often come crashing down....and it isn't that hard to do- this is the natural tendency of the ac in many cases

[The Blu Riband]

It least everyone will have had their backs cracked nicely as the nose finished de-rotating. :}

I'm sure he flew the nosewheel onto the runway smoothly - its not difficult.

Ive seen many landings where the pilot lowered the nosewheel too harshly immediately after touchdown

[eckhard]

Well said Olster! I’m starting to get a bit fed up with the way this forum is going. It’s supposed to be for professional pilots but some of the recent posts leave me wondering what sort of professional training and experience the contributors have?!

As others have pointed out; there may well be a valid reason for this particular example, but in general, it’s against all Boeing advice and airline SOPs with which I am familiar. So, if it was a “party trick” or a bit of showing off on ones last landing I can’t really condone it. I have: 747 9000hrs, including TRI/TRE and 787 4000hrs. A320 4000hrs and 737 5000hrs. Do I know it all? Of course not! I’m still learning to land my SEP predictably with 30000+ hrs total.

Did a practice glide approach back at base today, most of which was sideslipping to lose excess height! That’s what I love about flying; you never stop learning!

[70 Mustang]

It was a landing. It looked good. Yes, i liked the view of it. But i never did it myself. Never saw a need. A little bit in the soft field landing procedure. And not one ounce of jealousy here, nor any sense of inferiority. It does look good especially when an F15 does it. The FCTM at least in my airline was something i could not ignore without risk to my career/job.
But why do some get so vindictive about others' opinions, especially when he has such experience? If you like it, then like it. Don't jump on someone for not recommending it or not feeling jealous or inadequate for not doing it. Do it at your own risk. But don't forget you have x number of passengers that will hold you responsible if anything goes wrong. Better be wrapped completely in that FCTM and FCOM.

[Beamr]

I’m starting to get a bit fed up with the way this forum is going. It’s supposed to be for professional pilots but some of the recent posts leave me wondering what sort of professional training and experience the contributors have?!


No offence, but this section is:Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner)If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

edit: from a spectator point of view; nice landing, wish I were there!

[eckhard]

Fair comment! I didn’t read the section title; but I don’t believe that all the contributors on this thread have been spotters! Quite a few seem to be professional pilots, who are espousing less than professional opinions. All in my own humble opinion of course.

[Stuka Child]

PPRuNE is a funny place. Whenever somebody goes into the ground nose first, killing everyone onboard, there's always excuses. They were fatigued, they were startled, they encountered something they'd never seen in the sim... "Stop blaming the pilots"

But when someone does a perfectly safe landing, never once losing elevator authority and setting the nosewheel down perfectly smoothly, the lynch mob is out in full force because the crew didn't follow standard procedures. I'd rather fly with people who demonstrate positive control of their aircraft and break rules than people who follow the SOPs but get everyone killed.

[BirdmanBerry]

My Dad (Ex RAF QFI) said any one you can walk away from is a good one and excellent if you can use the aircraft again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iecHHrq2hQg

1 out of two is OK and he did walk away with minor injuries

I "landed" (SLF) at Newcastle in a BEA Trident before they extended the runway, to say it was firm was a bit of an understatement. Departure next day, not an empty seat on the plane, involved a running start from the taxiway.

That Sywell crash he didn't quite 'walk' away but at least survived but I've heard the pilot has had an operation on his hand and has back and rib damage.

[hec7or]

I'd rather fly with people who demonstrate positive control of their aircraft and break rules than people who follow the SOPs but get everyone killed.
best post of the year!

[D9009]

Would the flight data recording actually monitor the point of nosewheel touchdown compared to mainwheel touchdown and flag it according to the RWY length in the database? There must be a great many more important target inputs and this particular parameter would seem to be somewhat frivolous,

[Pugilistic Animus]

I knew that all of the pilots here were gonna get spooled up

​​​​​​My only thought is that the pilot should get an aerobatic plane and enjoy, something tells me that he doesn't need aerobatic training though

[srjumbo747]

I think this thread, albeit short, has shown what has happened to ‘modern’ aviation.
When I started flying longhaul, nearly 30 years ago, the Captains were of a different breed than they are today.
Looking at some of the comments, why shouldn’t people enjoy the job? I love it, have fun but you can do both and be professional.
Stop criticising. If someone ‘plants’ it then laugh. If a First Officer’greases’ it tell the pax and crew it was the Captain’s on the PA!
No thread drift.
I LOVED watching the 777 landing.

[trevelyan]

PPRuNE is a funny place. Whenever somebody goes into the ground nose first, killing everyone onboard, there's always excuses. They were fatigued, they were startled, they encountered something they'd never seen in the sim... "Stop blaming the pilots"

But when someone does a perfectly safe landing, never once losing elevator authority and setting the nosewheel down perfectly smoothly, the lynch mob is out in full force because the crew didn't follow standard procedures. I'd rather fly with people who demonstrate positive control of their aircraft and break rules than people who follow the SOPs but get everyone killed.

Beautifully said Stuka Child.

[JanetFlight]

I recall, many moons ago, VC-10s doing 'rollers' (touch-and-goes to magenta-line generation) where the landing attitude was held throughout the entire 'roll'; the nosewheel never came anywhere near the runway.

Same seeing old TAP classic Tristars doing the same here at Faro :)

[ManaAdaSystem]

We had a pilot like this in our company. Every landing was performed like this. 737. He was the only one who knew how to land a 737, or so he claimed. Ex fighter pilot. That is how it was/is done on the F-16.
It worked until he aerobraked the tail into the runway.
It took him 20 years or so, but he got there in the end.

[Check Airman]

PPRuNE is a funny place. Whenever somebody goes into the ground nose first, killing everyone onboard, there's always excuses. They were fatigued, they were startled, they encountered something they'd never seen in the sim... "Stop blaming the pilots"

But when someone does a perfectly safe landing, never once losing elevator authority and setting the nosewheel down perfectly smoothly, the lynch mob is out in full force because the crew didn't follow standard procedures. I'd rather fly with people who demonstrate positive control of their aircraft and break rules than people who follow the SOPs but get everyone killed.

Well said. So it doesn't follow the FCTM guidance. Pick on the guy for that. Is there anything inherently dangerous though? The crew's landing on a long runway, and the plane's probably as light as it'll ever be. From the windsock, the wind was VRB01G02, so no issues directional control issues. It might even have been a retirement flight.

Safety was never compromised. He/she likely had fun. What's the big deal?

*I'm not a 777 pilot

[lederhosen]

I now see this is on spectators balcony so maybe there is a different focus. But I was interested that nobody picked up on my earlier post that under certain circumstances the aircraft has a natural tendency to pitch up after landing. I had a quick look for examples and was reminded of a tail strike with a Chinese 777 in Amsterdam as well as numerous incidents with other Boeing twin jets. In this case all went well and for the spotters it looked good. But there are reasons this technique is not encouraged. Interestingly I also found a thread on Pprune about ten years ago describing this effect.

[Wirbelsturm]

Spoilers deploy, weight on wheels obviously doing it's job (ground air switch if you want the correct term!)

All braking wheels working just fine, thrust reverse working just fine. Directional control still available from the rudder. No loss of braking action on the longest runway in the south east. Probably been cleared to take a very late exit as the traffic is low at Heathrow at the moment so had the full 3882m available. Fly the nose down, admittedly takes a fair bit of back stick at lower speeds. Continue. Some of these big jets are landing very, very light. Sometimes the 'normal' amount of back pressure holds the nose up a bit longer.

No one will be 'up in front of management' for what was a perfectly fine landing.

[rmcdonal]

Would the flight data recording actually monitor the point of nosewheel touchdown compared to mainwheel touchdown and flag it according to the RWY length in the database? There must be a great many more important target inputs and this particular parameter would seem to be somewhat frivolous,
It would probably record the time of main wheel touchdown and the time of nose wheel touchdown. Depending on how the Company sets up their data monitoring system there would probably be a soft or a hard flag depending the length of time from main touchdown to nose touchdown. If they were inclined they could use that to calculate the distance the aircraft travelled, but to be honest you wouldn't be doing this if runway length was an issue.

Commercial aircraft record mountains of data, mostly it is automatically processed to flag events that meet certain criteria or used when investigating reported incidents.

[wiggy]

Spoilers deploy, weight on wheels obviously doing it's job (ground air switch if you want the correct term!)

All braking wheels working just fine, thrust reverse working just fine. Directional control still available from the rudder. No loss of braking action on the longest runway in the south east. Probably been cleared to take a very late exit as the traffic is low at Heathrow at the moment so had the full 3882m available. Fly the nose down, admittedly takes a fair bit of back stick at lower speeds. Continue. Some of these big jets are landing very, very light. Sometimes the 'normal' amount of back pressure holds the nose up a bit longer.

No one will be 'up in front of management' for what was a perfectly fine landing.

You may well be right, though IMHO since even I could "grease" the nosewheel onto the runway on a 777 using the FCTM technique so I'm still of the " what's the point" opinion..

Trying to stick to Boeing advice kept me out of the office at BA and off youtube for over 30 years.

[Wirbelsturm]

You may well be right, though IMHO since even I could "grease" the nosewheel onto the runway on a 777 using the FCTM technique so I'm still of the " what's the point" opinion..

Trying to stick to Boeing advice kept me out of the office at BA and off youtube for over 30 years.


Absolutely right. Kept me out of trouble for many years! You are only as good as your last landing! I left trying stupid things in stupidly fast things behind many years ago.:}

I do seem to remember that N/W touchdown isn't a hard coded switch. It shows up as a spike on the landing data g-loading printout IIRC.

[parabellum]

Way back in the mists of time Davis, in his book, "Handling the Big Jets" said that the only aircraft to benefit from aerodynamic breaking was a delta wing and I think gave the Vulcan as an example.

[Mullah Kintyre]

But when someone does a perfectly safe landing, never once losing elevator authority and setting the nosewheel down perfectly smoothly, the lynch mob is out in full force because the crew didn't follow standard procedures. I'd rather fly with people who demonstrate positive control of their aircraft and break rules than people who follow the SOPs but get everyone killed.
It is plainly obvious to anyone who has flown the 777 or similar that elevator authority is lost at the end of this guy's amazing wheely. You can see this from the rate of de-rotation. Some have seen (and felt) this from the cockpit and so can judge it even if you cannot. Not sure why you would say he never lost elevator authority when he obviously did. As for your other comment, I guess it's a good thing that attitude has been erased from the big airlines of the world.

By the way, re the touchdown, the 777 is ridiculously easy to land smoothly. You just wait for "30" then pull back a tad. Truck tilt does the rest.

[clear to land]

As a TRI/TRE on the 777 with more than a few years experience on type (all Models except the -900) this is definitely how 'NOT ' to do it. If anyone was silly enough to do this during a check it would be an instant 'Fail'. When the aircraft runs out of elevator authority it will subject the NLG to a 'G' loading more than it is designed for, The FCTM may not be 'FAA Approved' however it is 'Boeing for Dummies' and you would need a very good reason not to follow its recommendations.

[The Blu Riband]

It is plainly obvious to anyone who has flown the 777 or similar that elevator authority is lost at the end of this guy's amazing wheely. You can see this from the rate of de-rotation. Some have seen (and felt) this from the cockpit and so can judge it even if you cannot. Not sure why you would say he never lost elevator authority when he obviously did. As for your other comment, I guess it's a good thing that attitude has been erased from the big airlines of the world.

By the way, re the touchdown, the 777 is ridiculously easy to land smoothly. You just wait for "30" then pull back a tad. Truck tilt does the rest.

mmmmm, ok, your opinion.
I don't think he's lost elevator authority or that he planted the n/w. Not agreeing it should be done routinely!

[FlyingEngineer]

Am more of the opinion that this was unintentional. I did the very same (only once) on a similar type (747-8) landing no autobrake, lightweight, idle reverse onto a very long runway when we had to vacate at the end. I was a new FO at the time and remember thinking the nose just stayed in the landing attitude until about 80kts then I rather luckily put the nose down smoothly, was certainly not intentional!

[The Blu Riband]

Am more of the opinion that this was unintentional.

very unlikely.. The triple tends to want to lower the n/w so its a conscious effort to keep it up. Many pilots get caught out by this and allow the n/w to lower too quickly

[Cedrus]

......and that is why this forum has lost credibility.

Social media allows any enthusiast to make comment on technical issues that they’re not qualified to comment on. In some cases, not necessarily this one, that same comment can encourage, validate, or endorse others to emulate similar actions or behaviour. In all walks of life and regardless of your profession, people will be influenced by others.

In aviation, we train people to influence others in a good way. They’re called instructors and they’re a controlled influence.

Tom from Croydon isn’t an instructor or a subject matter expert. Perhaps he’s never flown before but he pulls a mean wheelie on his motorbike. Yet half the thread is full of unqualified gibberish from the likes of Tom (and sadly some ‘qualified’ people that should know better).

A cut and paste from the FCTM says it all.

If you’re not qualified to make comment good or bad, then don’t. By all means ask a question and if you’re qualified to answer it, do so.

If we can’t respect the first P in PPrune then the forum may as well be renamed Parka Pilots Rumour Network. That’s not a slight on the forum itself, but the contributors.

Pointless rant over...

[Nj211]

......and that is why this forum has lost credibility.

Social media allows any enthusiast to make comment on technical issues that they’re not qualified to comment on. In some cases, not necessarily this one, that same comment can encourage, validate, or endorse others to emulate similar actions or behaviour. In all walks of life and regardless of your profession, people will be influenced by others.

In aviation, we train people to influence others in a good way. They’re called instructors and they’re a controlled influence.

Tom from Croydon isn’t an instructor or a subject matter expert. Perhaps he’s never flown before but he pulls a mean wheelie on his motorbike. Yet half the thread is full of unqualified gibberish from the likes of Tom (and sadly some ‘qualified’ people that should know better).

A cut and paste from the FCTM says it all.

If you’re not qualified to make comment good or bad, then don’t. By all means ask a question and if you’re qualified to answer it, do so.

If we can’t respect the first P in PPrune then the forum may as well be renamed Parka Pilots Rumour Network. That’s not a slight on the forum itself, but the contributors.

Pointless rant over...

The lack of/dilution of P pilots on this forum has rendered it almost pointless tbh. Pretty much every post is swamped with people that don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. Maybe there should be a sub forum for actually qualified proven professional pilots. I would certainly pay more attention to that...

[Mullah Kintyre]

As a TRI/TRE on the 777 with more than a few years experience on type (all Models except the -900) I thought I'd flown them all but I've never heard of the "-900" !

Am more of the opinion that this was unintentional. I did the very same (only once) on a similar type (747-8) landing no autobrake, lightweight, idle reverse onto a very long runway when we had to vacate at the end. I was a new FO at the time and remember thinking the nose just stayed in the landing attitude until about 80kts then I rather luckily put the nose down smoothly, was certainly not intentional!
You can see the elevator is at full deflection (or very close to it) up until the nose gear impacts the runway, then it's released. Hard to think this is unintentional.

Some people seem to think the wheelie is an indication of great skill and airmanship so maybe it should be part of the check to line. But it's no more difficult than holding any other attitude and I'd be alarmed if he couldn't do it! Nice touchdown, though.

[layman24]

Ahm , I`m no expert, but could it be, there was no green light for nose gear and because of this, the pilot lowered
nose as late as possible to touchdown with minimum speed ?

[blind pew]

I am always wary of anyone who quotes their management or training qualifications as 20 years of RHS in legacy carriers meant that with two exceptions (one who went onto Concorde and an ex luftwaffe starfighter jockey) they were always hard work to fly with as they required extra monitoring and never lived up to their own egos.
Listening to their sermons my mind went blank.

[Eclan]

Why were you in the RHS for so long?

[wiggy]

Ahm , I`m no expert, but could it be, there was no green light for nose gear and because of this, the pilot lowered
nose as late as possible to touchdown with minimum speed ?

Nope, that's not it.. (no green "lights" on a T7 anyway)..

1. Doing that is certainly not in the procedure for a "Gear Disagree" warning and in any event as others have said previously deliberately keeping the nose wheel "off" increases the chance of the nose wheel hitting the runaway quite hard when it does eventually make contact.

2. If there had been a known gear problem there almost have certainly would have been signs of the safety services being in attendance.

[George Glass]

Sydney on a quiet CAVOK day....

“Qantas ... Clear to land 34L . Roll through approved. Vacate B1. Have a nice day.”

Management Pilot to F/O “ Check the Landing Distance required please.”
Autobrake 2 , Full Reverse , decelerate to 40 knots , thrust on to make B1.
F/O ; “ Sigh........”


Line Pilot to F/O ; “ Happy with Autobrake 1 ? I’ll kick it off on touchdown , stow the speed brake , and idle reverse. We’ve only got a 30 minute turnaround”
F/O; “ Sounds good to me”

Its called Airmanship.

[Hydromet]

Ahm , I`m no expert, but could it be, there was no green light for nose gear and because of this, the pilot lowered
nose as late as possible to touchdown with minimum speed ?

More than 50 years ago I was pax on a 727 in exactly this situation. The nose gear wouldn't retract, then they didn't have a green when they tried to lower it. It was a very gentle landing, and it seemed like the aircraft was almost at walking pace before the nosewheel gently touched the runway.

[wiggy]

More than 50 years ago I was pax on a 727 in exactly this situation. The nose gear wouldn't retract, then they didn't have a green when they tried to lower it. It was a very gentle landing, and it seemed like the aircraft was almost at walking pace before the nosewheel gently touched the runway.

Somebody will be along in a minute to point out what the 777 FCTM says on the issue of holding the nose wheel off, even when dealing with a potentially unsafe nose gear...;)

The other problem with the unsafe gear theory/tangent offered by layman24 is that unlike 50 years ago these days the whole world would have known before the T7 in the video had touched down that it was landing with possibly unsafe gear. That's thanks to the likes of FR24, social media alerts from spotters and sites such as this one...

Example Here..

There's a <<<<<<<<1% chance of what was seen being down to a possible nose gear problem.

[etrang]

PPRuNE is a funny place. Whenever somebody goes into the ground nose first, killing everyone onboard, there's always excuses. They were fatigued, they were startled, they encountered something they'd never seen in the sim... "Stop blaming the pilots"

But when someone does a perfectly safe landing, never once losing elevator authority and setting the nosewheel down perfectly smoothly, the lynch mob is out in full force because the crew didn't follow standard procedures. I'd rather fly with people who demonstrate positive control of their aircraft and break rules than people who follow the SOPs but get everyone killed.

But he (or she) DID lose elevator authority.

[White Van Driver]

I am always wary of anyone who quotes their management or training qualifications as 20 years of RHS in legacy carriers meant that with two exceptions (one who went onto Concorde and an ex luftwaffe starfighter jockey) they were always hard work to fly with as they required extra monitoring and never lived up to their own egos.
Listening to their sermons my mind went blank.
In BA pre-covid the time to a LH command was around 20 years. It's quite common for someone to wait that out in the RHS of a LH fleet due to the lifestyle. Of course some may well be the "hard work" types to which you refer... but in the case of this airline that's not a given at all.

I recall when I was under a year in the company, flying with a 15 year FO and a brand new 20 year skipper. I had more command time than both of them combined by a few thousand hours. But both of them were far more competent in the operation than I was!

All this to say don't write off a 20yr RHS pilot in BA as being hard work, there are plenty of good ones that are both competent and a pleasure to work with. fitting that description.

[blind pew]

In the early 70s the corporations had trained up too many pilots not calculating on the effect of wide bodied aircraft. Many of my mates who stayed in BA and didn't want to leave thief row were in the same boat (20 year command) and are now on those 150 grand pensions. I had a heavy in part 1 at the age of 28 and turned down a royal flight job LHS at 30 but was one of those few (30) who got to fly for the Swiss- the highest paid and best conditions in Europe with a command coming within 4 years but after they sacked Moritz Suter they invested in Crossair and built it up from 2 aircraft to 50 ish as a loco to destroy our salary base which delayed my command by 9 years.
They also screwed us on salary increases but when you are earning more than you can spend so what. The job was great fun with posh passengers, different routes, a lot of night stops, well maintained new equipment and a lot of hand flying with a stabilised approach requirement of 3-400 ft.
(and a union that got rid of those do as I say not as I do trainers).
PS I found being a captain as far as cockpit duties were concerned a dam sight easier than being a copilot!

[Stuka Child]

But he (or she) DID lose elevator authority.

No, she or he didn't!! Can you guys please stop posting stuff like that?

Having reduced elevator authority is one thing, LOSING elevator authority is quite another. The nosewheel didn't touch hard in any universe in that video.

[Stuka Child]

Not sure why you would say he never lost elevator authority when he obviously did.

Elevator authority was reduced yes, but they didn't "lose" it. They were in control 100% of the time.

As for your other comment, I guess it's a good thing that attitude has been erased from the big airlines of the world.

Yeah, too bad they didn't erase the pilots who are rubbish at flying on instruments, who are uncomfortable without autothrust and with handflying in general, who are scared of their aircraft and who fall to pieces as soon as something "startles" them. I maintain my point that these are the real killers, not that guy doing a soft field landing in a big 777.

[The Blu Riband]

All this to say don't write off a 20yr RHS pilot in BA as being hard work, there are plenty of good ones that are both competent and a pleasure to work with. fitting that description.

Well said. I'd go further and say they are almost without exception great to fly with in every way!

[tubby linton]

What a sad state of affairs that a clip of professional pilots at work is dragged through the mire thanks to the comments of an ill informed knuckle dragger .

[Pugilistic Animus]

V1 ........

[Check Airman]

It wasn't very long ago that in the US, you'd have to wait 20+ years to see the LHS of a narrowbody at the legacy airlines, and maybe 10 years at a LCC. By February of this year, that number was down to under 5 years across the board. I hope covid19 doesn't take us back to the bad old days.

[eckhard]

Well said. I'd go further and say they are almost without exception great to fly with in every way!

Hear, hear!!

Competency and professionalism don’t necessary relate to experience.

[clear to land]

The -900 is the official designation of what everyone calls the 'X'. To date only the Test Pilots have flown it.

[DaveReidUK]

The -900 is the official designation of what everyone calls the 'X'. To date only the Test Pilots have flown it.

Originally 777-900, but I believe the designation is now 777-9 (https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=N779XW), in line with Boeing's new penchant for short designations (747-8, 787-9, etc).

[Mullah Kintyre]

Elevator authority was reduced yes, but they didn't "lose" it. They were in control 100% of the time.
I think our definitions of "control" and "authority" might be different.
The 777's speed is reducing throughout the video.
Up-elevator is required to maintain the wheely attitude.
As speed reduces, so does elevator effectiveness so more and more upward deflection is required to maintain the attitude.
At a certain speed full deflection is reached.
The elevator in the video is fully-deflected upward from the beginning of the de-rotation until the nose-wheel's somewhat clumsy touchdown.
I think we can agree on the above.
Below that speed the aircraft "de-rotates" under the control of gravity, not the elevator. The pilot/elevator might influence the de-rotation but certainly do not control it at that point.
This is evidenced by the fact of the elevator not deflecting any further upward during the de-rotation and especially just prior to what some people think is a smooth nose wheel touchdown. On that topic, look at the size and the distance involved and the downward speed of the nose as it touches down and think again about it being gentle or not.

Yeah, too bad they didn't erase the pilots who are rubbish at flying on instruments, who are uncomfortable without autothrust and with handflying in general, who are scared of their aircraft and who fall to pieces as soon as something "startles" them. I maintain my point that these are the real killers, not that guy doing a soft field landing in a big 777.
I don't disagree.

[DaveReidUK]

until the nose-wheel's somewhat clumsy touchdown

That's not supported by the video.

While the NLG clearly touched down much later and farther down the runway than normal, there's no evidence that it hit the tarmac any harder than usual.

I very much doubt that any teeth were harmed during the making of that film. :O

[OldLurker]

If this landing was as reprehensible has some here seem to think, might we not have heard about it elsewhere? There's nothing except this video. Nobody has popped up to say whether there was any follow-up, or to say that they spilled their champagne in first class.

When was the video taken? The Twitter post is dated 7 September but according to BA Source (http://thebasource.com/aircraft/b777-200er/g-ymmj/) (and others) the aircraft in the video, G-YMMJ, wasn't flying that day - not on revenue service anyway. If this was its last revenue flight before that date, from SFO, then I daresay the aircraft would have been quite light.

[The Blu Riband]

The elevator in the video is fully-deflected upward from the beginning of the de-rotation until the nose-wheel's somewhat clumsy touchdown.
I think we can agree on the above.


Look again cos I don't agree.

The n/w t/d is smooth, and you can see the elevator deflection actually reduce as the n/w descends

[Icelanta]

Sorry boys, this is a good landing, nothing to see here and those complainers: go fuc... yourselves. Dor all it’s worth they were empty and with over 3000m., landing distance is absolutely non critical. This crew obviously know their equipment.

[Cedrus]

Ice Child, please qualify what a 'good landing' is? That's a rhetorical question (look it up so you know what rhetorical means).

Without all the data and a trained interpreter, no one on this forum knows if this was a 'good landing'. I make an assumption that you don't have access to the data or any expertise on the aircraft.

Any training Captain would not support holding the nose wheel off as evidenced in the video, regardless of runway available or non normal situation. It's not a big deal, but neither is it correct technique or endorsed.

I don't claim that the video captures a bad or a good landing.

I do maintain that the majority of replies to this thread are unqualified gibberish.

[visibility3miles]

I see the firefighting heavies do this very often landing.

Fire fighting heavies land very light and need a quick turn around unless the fire is out.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Anyone 777 qualified will know that was against the FCTM, also they know that anything other than a normal derotation rate can loosen ones fillings given the lack of "give" on the nose leg.

I'm still trying to figure out what was happening with that spoiler deployment considering they were on the ground with reverse selected.

[Cough]

Surely the elevator gains authority as the aircraft de-rotates? So may whilst the start may have been induced, it's possible the end wasn't and I've watched many 777's lower their nose at faster rates than this one... I'm in the 'nothing to see here' camp as I've a funny feeling it was dealt with a after landing discussion...

[Pugilistic Animus]

Perhaps they had a nose gear steering problem indication :cool:? We've had aircraft coming in with 90° NG and so in that case it is the best to keep it up as long as possible.... :)

Isn't the 90 deg. displacement an Airbus problem only? Because the engineers decided to make the NG do a little Pirouette during retraction and extension

[Vessbot]

Happy with Autobrake 1 ? I’ll kick it off on touchdown , stow the speed brake , and idle reverse. .

I'm not sure if I'm reading you right, but I'm reading that you're essentially not gonna use the brakes. If so, why set the autobrake just to kick it off "on touchdown" (i.e., immediately?)

[FlightDetent]

Isn't the 90 deg. displacement an Airbus problem only? Because the engineers decided to make the NG do a little Pirouette during retraction and extension It's a feature, not a bug.

[Craggenmore]

Shame the 10,000's of spectators who traveled to Filton on Nov 26th didn't get to see anything so 'dramatic'..!

[speedrestriction]

Aerodynamic braking on delta wings makes sense, huge increase in drag at higher alpha. On aircraft with long, slender wings it falls into the category of showboating. It is not unsafe in this particular situation, simply unnecessary and not a very effective method of slowing this type of aircraft.