Old Heathrow aircraft ID please

[goldox]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1170/heathrow_may_1975_8439c86cc562ddfe00030131e6dda4504dac49f5.j pg
Heathrow May 1975

From May 1975, any ID on the two aircraft top left? I'm venturing DC9 of ?? and a DC8.
Wife didn't want her face shown so sorry about the blacked out area.
Also wondering if these flights coul dbe identified as to A/C type.

BE353 Heathrow to Rome 17/5/1975
BE576 Heathrow to Geneva 25/3/1978.

Very much obliged for any info!

[Downwind_Left]

I’m pretty sure the aircraft in your photo is the following...
Tarom BAC 1-11 (http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11jet.co.uk%20Tarom.htm)

[250 kts]

Seaboard World or Loftleidir DC8?

[treadigraph]

Certainly looks like a Tarom 1-11.

The other is outside the Pan Am maintenance hangar as I recall, so PA 707? Think the apparent length of the aircraft is an office/tech block attached to the airfield side of the hangar.

[renfrew]

BE 353 was a Rome-London Trident.
BE 576 was a London-Tel Aviv flight.

[SpringHeeledJack]

DC-8 likely a PanAm 707 as mentioned, you can make out the white fuselage and a blue roundel on the tail, BAC 1-11 of Tarom in the foreground and the smudge just to the right of the PanAm probably a Gulfstream 3.

[goldox]

Thanx everyone for the info.
I did at first think Panam 707 but it looked longer like a DC8, but I see now it's just the effect of the white building behind it.
The 1-11 Tarom I see now. As I've flown on a 1-11 I should have got that!

So the ticket stub she has BE353 was the Rome return to LHR flight.
Strange about the BE576, it is a carbon copy of her ticket for Heathrow to Geneva flight. Maybe I copied the number wrong, I must check.

Can't believe how anything else can be made out - Gulfstream 3! I didn't even see the smudge!
However now I look, are there two more "smudges" in front of the Hunting hangar?

Cheers.
Goldox.

[goldox]

OK I have re-examined the 42-year-old faint carbon copy of the ticket.
It definitely says BE576 Heathrow to Geneva. BE577 Geneva to Heathrow.
However underneath the typed BE577 there is a faint handwritten "BE625".
I have also found the boarding pass - BE625 Geneva to Heathrow 1/4/78.

So, which type would it be, another Trident? And why the change?

Many thanx.

Goldox.

[Pistonprop]

Having looked at it again, and more to the point, where it's parked, I think the Pan Am DC-8 call is a good call.

[DaveReidUK]

OK I have re-examined the 42-year-old faint carbon copy of the ticket.
It definitely says BE576 Heathrow to Geneva. BE577 Geneva to Heathrow.
However underneath the typed BE577 there is a faint handwritten "BE625".
I have also found the boarding pass - BE625 Geneva to Heathrow 1/4/78.

If the 1978 date is correct, those flight numbers should be BA576, BA577, etc. The BE designator was retired at the start of the Summer 1977 season.

So, which type would it be, another Trident?

Almost certainly.

And why the change?

Given that the date falls right at the start of the Summer 1978 season, it's probably a consequence of the mass renumbering of flights that was going on at that time as all the former BE/BEA and BA/BOAC flight numbers were merged into a single schedule.

[renfrew]

I have a summer 1978 timetable which shows BE 625 as a Geneva-London Trident.

[l.garey]

Trident 2Es were used GVA-LHR-GVA at least until November 1981. Indeed they were my last Trident flights.

Laurence

[DaveReidUK]

I have a summer 1978 timetable which shows BE 625 as a Geneva-London Trident.

Yes, it looks like Wikipedia (from which I took my information) is wrong about the BE designator being withdrawn in April 1977.

This site (https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261621/197778-ba-inter-continental-network/) quotes it as still being in use in Winter 1977/78 and your Summer 1978 timetable backs that up.

So the designator change for European flights must have occurred at the start of the Winter 1978 season, as this timetable (https://www.vc10.net/Files/BA_1978-1979Timetableno1.pdf) confirms.

I remember vaguely that what happened was in S1978, flight numbers were rationalised across BA, hence the OP's flight number change (but still retaining the BE prefix) and then the designator changed from W1978 onwards, so that BE577 GVA-LHR changed first to BE625 and subsequently to BA625.

Incidentally, the legacy of that system continues to this day, over 40 years later: BA LHR flight numbers from 1 to 299 are longhaul, and departures are odd-numbered, whereas shorthaul flights are 300 upwards, with LHR departures even-numbered.

[Hartington]

Is it just possible that the DC-8 is Varig rather than Pan Am?

[treadigraph]

I'm sure it's a 707. Pan Am had disposed of their DC-8s by 1970, Varig just the one in 1975.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I only ever saw 707's. possibly 720's there at the PanAm facility, although I seem to remember a photo of a 747 there I saw in some article.

[treadigraph]

Pan Am 747 was probably this one which I think was there for a while being repaired. Fairly certain I saw it there a week or so later.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f13540f0b61342000315/5-1981_N771PA.pdf

[goldox]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/624x465/heathrow_may_1975b_921096a6afa9f010a8481512c0aaac764163feee. jpg

Thank you all for the very informative replies.
I've managed to clean up part of the original picture a bit, any help on 100% positive ID?
SAS DC8 crossed my mind then flew out the other side :).
I'm in favour of PANAM 707.

Goldox

[TCU]

Good work Goldox

The Kuwait Airways livery of the time also had a blue flash across its tail

[goldox]

TCU - I could believe it's a Kuwait Varig 707 now you mention it. But would it be by the Panam maintenance?

Goldox

[Mr Mac]

goldox
Definitely 1-11 in the foreground. I would go for DC8 on the distant one, as the tail looks wrong (to me) for 707 but it could be the angle of the A/C in relation to yourself.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[SpringHeeledJack]

Pan Am 747 was probably this one which I think was there for a while being repaired. Fairly certain I saw it there a week or so later.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...981_N771PA.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f13540f0b61342000315/5-1981_N771PA.pdf)

Thankyou mr T, if it was there for a while I probably saw it in reality as well as in a photo. The PanAm steeds were so everyday back then it probably didn't seem so interesting apart from it's location. I do remember a British Airways/BOAC 747 doing an RTO on 27L due to a compressor stall, loud bang and flames out the back around that time period, if anyone remembers the incident. The 'bang' happened abeam the old T2 multistory carpark.

As to the 707 being a Kuwait example, it's possible, but I would've thought with the British connections to that country, the very competent BOAC/BA maintenance area would be the logical choice. The only 'other' 707 I ever saw at the PanAm Mx hangar was Bangladesh Biman, and if I remember that was an ex-PA example.

[treadigraph]

I recall an Icelandic 707 on the Pan Am ramp, Eagle Airways? Or something. TF-VLA rings a bell, think they did a lot of flying for other airlines.

[rog747]

Eagle Air Arnaflug had a green and white tail iirc

[treadigraph]

Sorry, wasn't suggesting it was the aircraft in the pic - I'm thinking circa 78-80. They had 720s TF-VLA/VLB and 707 TF-VLL which was the ex Maverick International 707 N448M - an interesting saga! (http://oldjets.net/index_bestanden/Page4738.htm) I saw it overfly one morning with a very loud and confident howdy on 134.9 as it passed Woodley, "London, Maverick 448 Mike"!

[rog747]

Sorry, wasn't suggesting it was the aircraft in the pic - I'm thinking circa 78-80. They had 720s TF-VLA/VLB and 707 TF-VLL which was the ex Maverick International 707 N448M - an interesting saga! (http://oldjets.net/index_bestanden/Page4738.htm) I saw it overfly one morning with a very loud and confident howdy on 134.9 as it passed Woodley, "London, Maverick 448 Mike"!

Ah!
N448M ex N448PA with Pan Am until 1977 (Built as a pure cargo jet) was leased to Maverick (tail logo was a black steer's horns), then BMA's Mr Bishop with business pal R. Beauchamp repossessed it back in 1979 now painted all white.
BMA used it on full cargo leases to various airlines. It was often at LHR - It was repainted in full PIA and Gulf Air Falcon colours, then returned to BMA with Cargo titles.
N448M was then bought by Eagle Air, Iceland in 1981 as TF-VLL, leased to Libyan Arab Airlines. By 10/1981 it was in full Libyan livery.

BMA bought it back in 4/1982, then painted again into BMA house livery with Cargo titles.
Re-Reg'd as G-BMAZ
She was soon rebuilt as a passenger 707 with a new wide look cabin, new galleys and new seats for 212 pax (No IFE fitted) and joined the BMA 707 IT holiday charter fleet until 1985.
The engines also received 3 Turbo Compressors (pure cargo 707's only had 2 as built) to enable long haul Pax charters to USA and Canada.

The old photo above is from 1975 so it's not 448 (Unless it is her still with PAA lol)
Chances are it is a PAA 707 in this photo, or a Kuwait just possibly...?

[goldox]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/811x605/heathrow_may_1975c_1c9d22890061ff2302362de2e0980053594972a7. jpg

Extreme zoom in and better colour, definitely my last attempt.
Looks like a fairly straight line at bottom of logo, so I'm now favouring Kuwait. - I think,

[goldox]

And just for nostalgia.... 1983. My son - and he didnt even turn out to be a spotter!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/866x670/heathrow_may_1983_720eb1730b11b6213b6a551ca99497eb135a4a59.j pg