Duxford - End of Flying Legends airshows

[nohold]

https://www.air-shows.org.uk/2020/08/airshow-news-no-more-flying-legends-airshows-at-iwm-duxford/

Looking to relocate....

[treadigraph]

Bit of a shocker...

[Jhieminga]

Interesting, I would have thought that such an airshow would be financially rewarding for the IWM as well.

[GeeRam]

Interesting, I would have thought that such an airshow would be financially rewarding for the IWM as well.

I would guess that by IWM statement about funds shortfall, they likely wanted a bigger cut from TFC, and TFC have said foxtrot oscar.......

[Hueymeister]

North Weald as new venue?

[treadigraph]

Didn't NW have problems with being close to Stansted when Fighter Meet was held there in the 1980s and Stansted's traffic then was a fraction of what it is now.

[GeeRam]

Didn't NW have problems with being close to Stansted when Fighter Meet was held there in the 1980s and Stansted's traffic then was a fraction of what it is now.

Yes, Stansted and M11 (and the new housing estate adjacent to the airfield) killed Fighter Meet..... (although the Stansted traffic at the moment is a mere fraction of what it was in the 80's since Covid of course!)

[DHfan]

I hope they can find somewhere where it's viable to hold the display but with their aircraft being kept literally a few yards from the flight line at Duxford, it's hard to think anywhere else could work financially.

IWM seem to be run by idiot accountants these days or possibly marketing "experts". A couple of years ago they trumpeted that Friends of Duxford was no more and it was under the umbrella of Friends of IWM. We went to Legends in 2018 with a still (just) current FoD membership. The cafe/restaurant, and presumably shop, discount had gone down from 20% to 15% which I could live with as I spent very little on site. We tried to enter the FoD enclosure which had always been member and guest and were sent off to a tent to pay £10 to get my other half in, and when we did get in, the previously free tea, coffee and biccies were at the special discounted member price of £1.95 for a teabag in a polystyrene cup.
If they hadn't changed things, they'd have continued getting 40-odd quid a year indefinitely. As it is, it will take a really inventive accountant to prove that a one-off payment of £17.80 (two cups of tea each) was a better deal.

I found somewhere on the 'net a while ago that somebody had put in a Freedom of Information request about things relating to the change. Out of around 5,500 Friends of Duxford members, somewhere under 900 had transferred to the new scheme. Needless to say, I wasn't one of them.

That was a roaring success then...

[Icare9]

Yep, a little from a lot beats a lot from a few, but not to accountants.
Same with car insurance, some still penalise renewals and look only for "new" business with higher discounts which they can't give to renewals, thus losing customers who have hand No Claims.....

[GeeRam]

I hope they can find somewhere where it's viable to hold the display but with their aircraft being kept literally a few yards from the flight line at Duxford, it's hard to think anywhere else could work financially.


Exactly.
The financial and logistic advantages of TFC and IWM being based on the site that the show is held on, is enormous, and I just can't see it being viable for TFC to host the show elsewhere while they are based at Duxford.
Which begs the question, as to will they start to think of moving their operation elsewhere in time. I wouldn't blame them either if they did.

[Fareastdriver]

Travelling from London to Aberdeen I dropped in at Cosford to have a look around. I paid the entrance fee and went in. Trying to get to the Battle of Britain exhibition I was stopped. The hanger, and all its contents, had been rented out for a corporate lunch!. When I went back to the ticket desk I found there was no chance of getting my money back.

I am not going again.

[POBJOY]

Travelling from London to Aberdeen I dropped in at Cosford to have a look around. I paid the entrance fee and went in. Trying to get to the Battle of Britain exhibition I was stopped. The hanger, and all its contents, had been rented out for a corporate lunch!. When I went back to the ticket desk I found there was no chance of getting my money back.

I am not going again.

Suggest an email to the 'Boss' and a suitable entry on trip advisor if not a satifactory answer rcd. If you were not made aware of the limitation on ticket purchase i suspect they are obliged to refund as they have failed to deliver the goods as advertised. It is the local authority who cover such complaints.,but it is so petty that Cosford should deal with it internally without delay. No one likes a bad press on TA. Am i correct that many Hendon items there now.
As an alternative,visit Biggin Hill for the aircraft then pop over a couple of valleysto vist the most original Battle of Britain AF Kenley. Amazing place where for NOTHING you can walk around this historic location and even stroll down the runways when gliding is finished . In fact you could even get a glider flight from Kenley and get a feel for the area.From the Kenley circuit Biggin,Croydon, and London are visible. If you go there early morning and sit in anaircraft blast pen,close your eyes and listen to the Merlins warming up. Ok Treads give him the image!!!

[DHfan]

Cosford of course is RAF Museum, not IWM but they're all just as bad. I'm sure Hendon and Duxford have held auctions - classic cars? - in the past and I bet Joe Public isn't allowed in those areas. I suppose Hendon could say admission's free so what are you complaining about but Duxford costs a few bob to get in.
We had a similar experience on the SS Great Britain 8 or 9 years ago when a big chunk of it had been hired out for a wedding reception. Great venue and I hope they enjoyed it but what about Joe Public, which in that case included me, who'd paid for access.

I guess the excuse would be it generates valuable income, and I'm sure it does, but you can't just ignore the general paying public, especially without telling them in advance.

[treadigraph]

Ok Treads give him the image!!!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x735/spit_3abbc2e8c1dc6bee1d316125e625d8993bf865e0.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x553/kenley_8e57e47fe1faddf4bb07ba7d5a7cc23896a7e9bd.jpg

The pen under the burning Dornier with Spitfire in it is intact, as are some of the others around the airfield, plus the one at roughly 1 o'clock in the painting is now the Kenley memorial. Well worth a visit. With Battle of Britain day coming up, hope the BBMF may also provide a flypast, they usually do.

Regarding a new location for Flying Legends, somewhere like RAF Wyton? Doubt MoD would be keen though...

[Herod]

Travelling from London to Aberdeen I dropped in at Cosford to have a look around. I paid the entrance fee and went in. Trying to get to the Battle of Britain exhibition I was stopped. The hanger, and all its contents, had been rented out for a corporate lunch!. When I went back to the ticket desk I found there was no chance of getting my money back.

I am not going again.
Admission to Cosford is free.

[terrain safe]

Yes, Stansted and M11 (and the new housing estate adjacent to the airfield) killed Fighter Meet..... (although the Stansted traffic at the moment is a mere fraction of what it was in the 80's since Covid of course!)

Stansted is moving about 340/350 a day at the moment. In the 80s and early 90s, it was about 200/220 on a busy day. So no chance these days even though the aircraft are a lot slower ( and don't just blast out of NW like the French Mirages did without talking to anyone!).

[Typhoon Tripacer]

Wroughton used to hold a few shows in the 90's and seemed to work well. Science Museum owns it I believe, could they be amenable.

[old10ge]

Suggest an email to the 'Boss' and a suitable entry on trip advisor if not a satifactory answer rcd. If you were not made aware of the limitation on ticket purchase i suspect they are obliged to refund as they have failed to deliver the goods as advertised. It is the local authority who cover such complaints.,but it is so petty that Cosford should deal with it internally without delay. No one likes a bad press on TA. Am i correct that many Hendon items there now.
As an alternative,visit Biggin Hill for the aircraft then pop over a couple of valleysto vist the most original Battle of Britain AF Kenley. Amazing place where for NOTHING you can walk around this historic location and even stroll down the runways when gliding is finished . In fact you could even get a glider flight from Kenley and get a feel for the area.From the Kenley circuit Biggin,Croydon, and London are visible. If you go there early morning and sit in anaircraft blast pen,close your eyes and listen to the Merlins warming up. Ok Treads give him the image!!!


Thats disappointing. The last time I went to Cosford it was free entry and according to their website it still is. As far as I could establish the only IWM location that charges is Duxford!

[DHfan]

Cosford's not IWM, it's the RAF Museum.

Apart from Lambeth, I think all IWM sites charge admission. It's a few years since I visited the Cabinet War Rooms and even longer ago to HMS Belfast but I'm fairly confident we had to pay for both.

[treadigraph]

I think Wroughton took on the Great Warbirds Display from West Malling didn't it? Also the PFA Fly In a couple of times. Perhaps in John Bagley's day, if I recall he was an enthusiast rather than bean counting H&S adherent... :p

[Krystal n chips]

Travelling from London to Aberdeen I dropped in at Cosford to have a look around. I paid the entrance fee and went in. Trying to get to the Battle of Britain exhibition I was stopped. The hanger, and all its contents, had been rented out for a corporate lunch!. When I went back to the ticket desk I found there was no chance of getting my money back.

I am not going again.

I have to say that's an unwarranted criticism regarding Cosford. True, you have to pay £5 for 7 hrs car parking, which is actually more than perfectly reasonable and very good value, but as another poster has stated, admission is free. As for the "corporate event ", it seems highly likely your chosen day to visit simply coincided with this event. Plus, museums do host private group visits / events as I'm sure you are aware, certainly the one I'm associated with does, but given the range of exhibits available elsewhere at Cosford, being unable to access one area isn't really deprivation.

[Herod]

Thanks KnC. Yes, Fareastdriver is getting upset for nothing. There are four hangars at Cosford, and only one of those is used for events, and none since the pandemic took hold. That leaves three hangars, containing, among other things, the world's oldest Spitfire (a Dunkirk veteran) and the only remaining Valiant. As regards the Spitfire exhibition, there hasn't been one for at least two years, the one to commemorate the 80th opening on 12th Sep.

Free entry, and only a £ 5 car-park charge, to be able to view some 40 or 50 rare and iconic aeroplanes, seems good value to me.

[Martin the Martian]

Kemble could be a good venue.

[GeeRam]

Kemble could be a good venue.

Biscester would be good, given the heritage aspect of the airfield site and what the team there are trying to achieve. Pretty much central point of the UK, and not far from M40, but crap local road access though especially with traffic issue from the big posh retail shopping centre on the other side of town, although good rail access, with the station only a 20 min walk away.

But ATC, Fire and all airfield ground support stuff already in place at Duxford would need to be setup and I think for it to stay in UK, as you say, Kemble, Scampton, Biggin Hill, Sywell maybe, will be the sort of options they will need to look at. UK is fast running out of suitable locations though.
Personally, I think there's more likelyhood of TFC taking the show to mainland Europe than it staying in the UK.

[Martin the Martian]

Personally, I think there's more likelyhood of TFC taking the show to mainland Europe than it staying in the UK.

The more I look at it the more I can see that possibility. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the organisation relocates to Europe. With the number of airshows declining in the UK there will be many more opportunities to show their aircraft on the mainland.

[ASRAAMTOO]

Be nice if Wroughton actually opened to the public. From old visitor posts the hangars there look interesting. I gather a new building is being created which might open occassionally in 2023.

[GeeRam]

The more I look at it the more I can see that possibility. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the organisation relocates to Europe. With the number of airshows declining in the UK there will be many more opportunities to show their aircraft on the mainland.

Don't forget that it started off in Europe 40 years ago, as Stephen Gray has lived in Switzerland for decades, and his first P-51 was originally based there before he brought it to the UK on the suggestion of Ray Hanna IIRC.
So, yes, I agree, in that eventually, if IWM become less accommodating for the warbird operators at Duxford, TFC ARCo etc may decide that relocating to other places maybe the wise move, and TFC could indeed choose to move to mainland Europe, especially with the increasing amount of French and German based warbird owners and workshops.

[Good Vibs]

What an idea!
If for whatever dastardly reason its over with Duxford and its world famous and fantastic airshow why not somewhere in Europe.
Make the show a bit smaller perhaps.
Not easy for the amount of ground support needed for all the WW2 aircraft. Transportation, housing, etc.At Duxford its all there.

I suggest three airfields. Not as good as Duxford but perhaps?
Way down southeast near the Alps...
1. Salzburg Airport...Red Bulls Hanger 7 is there. One problem is the airliner traffic on the other side of the paved runway. Grass runway? Weekend traffic?
Way up north on the North Sea and Baltic Sea.
2. Nordholz Airport...A military airfield and home to the German Navy P-3's. Is large enough, just need approval of course. Also has a small grass runway.
Lots of history in the airfield. During WW2 they built a dummy airfield to its SE, and the RAF came and dropped wooden bombs on it!:D
3. Zirchow / Usedom...Hanger 10. Smaller airfield and great collection of similar types of aircraft. Lots of history in the area.

Whatever the Flying Legends at Duxford was, as said before, a complete package.
My family, friends & I traveled from Europe many times over to see and experience it.
What a shame!:{

[DHfan]

I can't see any of the UK suggestions happening. Apart from what I gather from previous posts on here can only be deliberate awkwardness - for want of a better description - by the powers-that-be at Wroughton, I don't believe any of them could be financially viable.
Visiting aircraft would probably be fine, just arrive at a different venue, but TFC's are a different matter. I can't see the logistics of enough pilots and fuel costs adding up.

[Momoe]

What about Paris, Le Bourget? Good transport links, museum on site with 2 Concordes and already hosts airshows.
Never thought I'd be agreeing with TFC relocating o outside UK but the airshow scene was dealt a terminal blow at Shoreham IMO

[roger4]

The IWM press release states in part "We will be making some exciting changes to our own Air Show programme and look forward to sharing more details in the coming months".

Being suggested on another forum that IWM may be wanting to run an airshow on the FL weekend in their own name, and keep all the gross revenue (20,000 people/day x 2 days x £35/ticket = £1.5M, plus income from car parks, trade stands etc). Seems to make sense to me.

[Good Vibs]

Very good idea.:)
Lots to see
Paris, always lots of traffic. Just like London.

[Alsacienne]

Sad news, but perhaps not surprising in today's world .... and although posters have referred (with good reason) to the finances involved, it would be hard to maintain social distancing if enough visitors were to fill the coffers.

Very many happy memories of visits to Duxford, both to see the static exhibition and the flying displays. At least I have had the chance to walk through Concorde, never having been in the position to fly in her, and to enjoy wonderful moments of aviation history and acrobatics. Those can never be taken away from me.

[DHfan]

The IWM press release states in part "We will be making some exciting changes to our own Air Show programme and look forward to sharing more details in the coming months".

Being suggested on another forum that IWM may be wanting to run an airshow on the FL weekend in their own name, and keep all the gross revenue (20,000 people/day x 2 days x £35/ticket = £1.5M, plus income from car parks, trade stands etc). Seems to make sense to me.

If that is the plan, I suspect an overpaid bureaucrat's thought of it. AFAIK, the IWM owns a total of one airworthy aircraft. Are they expecting another 20 or 30 to materialise for free?

[nohold]

Blimey NAROBS, throw every airfield from a to z to the wind and see what sticks!

[DHfan]

Salisbury Hall's not got and never has had an airfield. A couple of early prototype Mosquitoes were flown out of a farmer's field after they removed a bit of hedge but that's it.

[GeeRam]

I can't see any of the UK suggestions happening. Apart from what I gather from previous posts on here can only be deliberate awkwardness - for want of a better description - by the powers-that-be at Wroughton,


Err.........Wroughton isn't even a viable airfield anymore so its not even on any list of airfields!
The Science Museum has built a massive archive building right across half the airfield right up to the edge of old runway, and the other half of the airfield is a solar panel farm!

[Momoe]

With respect the amount of viable airfields isn't huge, Duxford is well connected for transport and has ample parking and associated infrastructure which are hard to find elsewhere.

I'd suggest either Alconbury or Thurleigh, former has has good links A1/A14/M11, runway is intact although used as a V. large car park, Thurleigh has a lot of space but access would need some thought.

[GeeRam]

Not forgetting Northolt, Leavesden, Elstree, Denham, White Waltham and Salisbury Hall.

Northolt seems to have stuff-all traffic at the moment, apart from visiting State Department "Dignatories" in Gulf Streams, hosting the funny brigade and a BD detachment a couple of Services Mail flights and (Up until recently) 32 Squadron . . . great access, on the A40 and they do have a static airday and, more importantly, being on the approach path, I'd "Get-in" for free.

Traffic issues from Heathrow - what's that . . given the current usuage ?

N

Haha.......in your dreams!
As an ex-local resident Northolt will always have a special place in my heart. Fond memories of the BBMF display there when attending families day in Sept 1980, when I got a chance to have a quick clamber into the Lanc, but a full airshow display will never get the go-ahead at Northolt, not in a million years.

[Less Hair]

If a well known place like Duxford is unable to generate a profit with an event like this who else is? Or is this about something else? Noise complaints, airspace use, crash risk or similar?

[Momoe]

Less hair,

Not sure that the ability to generate a profit is in question, what appears to be the issue is the IWM and TFC failing to reach an equitable solution regarding profit sharing

[DHfan]

I've always thought that Legends was good value, given the air display and museum access were all included in the one price.
Reading between the lines, it seems possible that the IWM wanted a bigger slice of the cake, possibly due to current circumstances and the shortfall in income, and what's left wouldn't have made sense to TFC.

Must post quicker!

[VictorGolf]

It was interesting to hear Nick Grey's comment on the radio this morning, in which he quoted the running cost of a warbird at £10-12K per hour. So if IWM intend to run a show then as the aircraft will have to be brought in the operating costs might be 2 20 minute ferry flights plus the display at another 20 minutes, so a minimum of 1 hours flying per aircraft. 40 aircraft takes you up to approx £500K which will make a pretty big dent in the gate money before all the site costs. Do you think the IWM "bean counters" might have got it wrong?

[DHfan]

I wouldn't mind betting on it which is pretty much what I said in post #34. Given the genius the bean-counters or marketing gurus showed with abolishing Friends of Duxford it wouldn't be a surprise.

[GeeRam]

It was interesting to hear Nick Grey's comment on the radio this morning, in which he quoted the running cost of a warbird at £10-12K per hour. So if IWM intend to run a show then as the aircraft will have to be brought in the operating costs might be 2 20 minute ferry flights plus the display at another 20 minutes, so a minimum of 1 hours flying per aircraft. 40 aircraft takes you up to approx £500K which will make a pretty big dent in the gate money before all the site costs. Do you think the IWM "bean counters" might have got it wrong?

I don't think IWM will neccessary import warbirds for their shows, I think that's the problem with the direction they want to take he shows, if they survive beyond this year. It will be Pitts special aeros and the like, not big piston vintage warbirds. They want more generic shows not warbird enthusiast show that just happen to bring in people from all over Europe, the USA/Canada as well as even Aus/NZ....its a doesn't fit what we're about type scenario now, with the changes that have happened within IWM staff at DX and at Lambeth.

[Mr Mac]

Ok left field option given Bojo wanting to even up the country. What about Teeside, very quiet, longish runway, locals used to low flying courtesy of RAF at Leeming and Helo from Dishforth and currently Leeming trainers. You never know ;)

Kind regards
Mr Mac

[DHfan]

I'm still to be convinced that any alternative airfields are a viable alternative for TFC and certainly nowhere more than 10 to 15 minutes from their home base at Duxford. Considering that currently their aircraft are all on site, they can have the same pilot flying several different aeroplanes and when it's all over they go back into their own hangar, I just don't believe it could ever work at a distance

[GeeRam]

I'm still to be convinced that any alternative airfields are a viable alternative for TFC and certainly nowhere more than 10 to 15 minutes from their home base at Duxford. Considering that currently their aircraft are all on site, they can have the same pilot flying several different aeroplanes and when it's all over they go back into their own hangar, I just don't believe it could ever work at a distance

I agree.
Once they start crunching the numbers I'm sure they'll start to realise the same thing, that its just not viable.

[Tay Cough]

Obvious candidates to me would be Bruntingthorpe (I see the problem already given recent events) or Elvington. Another alternative would be St Mawgan although location isn’t necessarily in favour.

In practice, I suspect either the collection would be split up and sold (unlikely) or moved to a more Warbird favourable neighbourhood. Most likely somewhere a couple of hundred miles or so south of Dover. Sadly.

[GeeRam]

Obvious candidates to me would be Bruntingthorpe (I see the problem already given recent events)

You must be the only person in the UK that thinks Brunty is the most obvious candidate......(even before recent events)

[DHfan]

Bruntingthorpe, forget it. We already know there will be no aviation activity there since Walton's sold the site or lease. Elvington also, the runway's been sold, and St Mawgan's so far away it could never be an option, although I'm pretty sure neither of the other two would have been near enough to be financially viable anyway.

[DHfan]

I don't think IWM will neccessary import warbirds for their shows, I think that's the problem with the direction they want to take he shows, if they survive beyond this year. It will be Pitts special aeros and the like, not big piston vintage warbirds. They want more generic shows not warbird enthusiast show that just happen to bring in people from all over Europe, the USA/Canada as well as even Aus/NZ....its a doesn't fit what we're about type scenario now, with the changes that have happened within IWM staff at DX and at Lambeth.

If that really is their plan, the IWM bureaucrat idiots are even more stupid than I thought. They'll be lucky to get a tenth of the attendance that Legends gets.

[Herod]

Cosford anyone? Yes, I know it's an active RAF airfield.

[GeeRam]

Cosford anyone? Yes, I know it's an active RAF airfield.

Its the only place with an existing airshow infrastructure suitable tbh.

Far from local to Duxford and TFC's base though, and Nick Grey was on local radio this morning being interviewed and was hinting that they would like to keep it local, but I really can't see anywhere local that could be an option?

I still think La Ferte-Alais in France will be where it ends up (and maybe TFC along with it)

[Good Vibs]

Good suggestion.
Beautiful area.
But what about any possible Brexit problems with moving to Europe?
And of course the total cost of such a move.
And would all his excellent staff want to leave the UK?

[Alsacienne]

Well if you are considering a move to France might I throw in Meyenheim, the former 132 French Air Force base, which used to hold wonderful airshows, and whose regular sorties produced sonic booms that would shake the windows in our houses on a regular basis.

[GeeRam]

Well if you are considering a move to France might I throw in Meyenheim, the former 132 French Air Force base, which used to hold wonderful airshows, and whose regular sorties produced sonic booms that would shake the windows in our houses on a regular basis.

And not far from the Swiss border, which is handy, given Stephen Grey has lived in Switzerland for the past 40 odd years ;)

[Tashengurt]

How about Scampton?

[GeeRam]

How about Scampton?

In theory it would seem a good option, once the Reds have moved out......but that won't be for a couple of years.

[GeeRam]

IWM Duxford Curator has made the following somewhat astonishing recent Tweet, which probably explains as much as anything......:eek:

Yes Flying Legends is popular among a certain audience, but for a number of years it has been out performed by shows with less niche appeal. Duxford has always been a war museum first, aviation museum second, and IMO Legends' programme has become removed from its warbird origins

[DHfan]

Yes - the staff are idiots.
I assume there must be facts to back up such a statement but I find it hard to believe.

[WB627]

Wellesbourne Mountford

[Amos Keeto]

Sywell - if it can cater for 2,000 movements during the annual LAA Rally, then surely it can cope with Flying Legends.

[treadigraph]

GeeRam, definitely sounds like someone talking nonsense. Not, perchance, the same person who is the Director of Visitor Experience at the NT is it? :}

If you can get a B-17/DC-3 into Sywell, gets my vote. Despite my scary incident there with a Beagle Pup in 1988...

[Haraka]

I can see all flying being terminated out of Duxford in the medium term and then a large part of the "redundant" airfield being put up to be sold for development.

[GeeRam]

Sywell - if it can cater for 2,000 movements during the annual LAA Rally, then surely it can cope with Flying Legends.

Not sure about Sywell......good friends of mine run a weekend event there (or did pre-Covid) and visitor parking for Sywell will be a problem. There's only about a third of the space available across the road in the fields for car parking compared to the limitation at Duxford, so you will have to bring in a lot of either park n ride options from nearby landowner fields (at cost) as well as transport from the station. I know what it cost them in terms of bringing in facilities for a fraction of the people that would be there for Legends and its not cheap.
The costs to TFC for show infrastructure that they currently don't have to think about is a lot, on top of the other stuff they will have to employ people to do.
As someone that has been involved on the fringes of large public event organisation, don't underestimate the amount of work and costs involved in taking on a LOT of more than what you've been used to doing........and still expect to not loose money.

I think the only way TFC can do this is going to an airfield where there is already an established show structure in place to piggy back off/share etc, and there's not many options there, Cosford, Biggin and Old Warden are all that I can think of. Either that or joining forces with a previous show team, that have had to stop a show and try and revive it under the Legends banner?

[Momoe]

St. Athan? Airfield is now civilian, relatively good communication and infrastructure.

Surprised by statement from IWM, ok, it's a war museum first, however with a large aviation content, TFC are by definition warbirds which makes the IWM statement a little contradictory.

Disagree with the 'niche' statement, run two shows, flying legends and ' generic' and compare gate receipts; difficult to understand IWM rationale on this.

[Rigga]

Obviously IWM don't just want profit - they want more profit. Other organisations on the airfield will be feeling that same pressure too.
Having been in a business driven to closure by relentless hangar rent rises. The needs of an airfield owner are often outside most operations contexts and when TFC move out there won't be any real profit in whoever moves in - especially if they cancel a huge revenue event. Is the IWM being driven by a new CFO/accountant with no IWM or Duxford experience? Perhaps one who sees more profit in car parks than airfields?

[clareprop]

Sywell has always tried to engender the Aviation spirit and would be a good match 'spritually' but as others have stated, the infrastructure probably isn't there to deal with regular large crowds during the season.

Despite my scary incident there with a Beagle Pup in 1988...

Having learnt to fly at Sywell in '84, you've piqued my interest. I regularly flew BASP and AZSW which, I believe drowned itself on the IoW many moons later.

[Martin the Martian]

With that rather shocking statement from IWM, what price flying operations at Duxford in the long term? What price even an airfield at Duxford in the long term?

[GeeRam]

With that rather shocking statement from IWM, what price flying operations at Duxford in the long term? What price even an airfield at Duxford in the long term?

My feeling exactly.

If her new airshow grand plan backfires, I'm sure it will just be a case of, no point in having an active airfield anymore so we can sell of most of that empty space over there for housing, which given its location, and demand for new housing in the Cambridge area would solve a lot of IWM's financial issues in a hearbeat.

Job done from her point of view.

[ChickenHouse]

I was surprised to read the statement. Flying Legends has been a world renowned event and they kill it?
Will they move it to the continent due to Brexit is a far wild guess, but I am still waiting for more details.
Just glad we went there in 2019 to see 'the last' !!!

[VictorGolf]

I'm not sure it pays to be too gloomy about the future of Duxford as an airfield. I believe there are plans afoot to build an aerotech campus to the South of the runway and it's coming partially because of the proximity of the airfield. Or has that been binned as well.

[GeeRam]

I believe there are plans afoot to build an aerotech campus to the South of the runway and it's coming partially because of the proximity of the airfield. Or has that been binned as well.

Are you not thinking of the proposal for Marshall Aerospace to relocate from their existing Cambridge airport site to Duxford, and which was going to be built in the south-west corner of the airfield?

[treadigraph]

Having learnt to fly at Sywell in '84, you've piqued my interest. I regularly flew BASP and AZSW which, I believe drowned itself on the IoW many moons later.

Can't recall which one it was, G-AZ?? I think, but it was started up between the hangars, ran up to high power, shot forwards towards the airfield, the right wingtip clipped a fuel pump (I think - it's no longer there) on the corner of what is now 2Excel's hangar, it pirouetted round the pump and the nose went through the front of the glazed area. A friend and I were walking in front of the hangar on the tarmac strip towards the corner and were suddenly confronted with this spinning prop a few yards away - John broke right and I was contemplating diving over the wing I think, fortunately the momentum taking it into the side of the hangar likely saved our bacon!

Two guys who looked like mechanics were in it and I assume the throttle had been left open and the parking brake off when they started it. Looked like the right wing was slightly twisted and presumably the prop/engine/cowling were damaged too. Pleased to report there was no laundry bill on our part, can't comment on the state of the occupants' smalls - I imagine they may have had a no tea no biccies style interview with their manager later...

[/drift]

[VictorGolf]

GeeRam, the aerotech campus idea was much more recent than the Marshall's project, which foundered on runway access and hangarage I believe.

[clareprop]

treadigraph. Wow. Well, I promise it wan't me.

[roger4]

I think Sywell is worth another look, despite GeeRam's well made earlier comments. It has many advantages including parallel hard and grass runways, although each are only about 80% of the length of Duxford's, and it is only around 40 miles/15 minutes flying time from Duxford to allow pilots to shuttle backwards and forwards and swop aircraft. Sywell also has an active war-bird community including restoration workshops, and the airfield has very much the right "ethos" in regard to vintage aviation with for example its art-deco era clubhouse. Sywell is also located in reasonably clear airspace away from both Luton and Stansted movements.

The logistics and costs of car-parking for say 20,000 visitors, together with all the catering and toilet etc amenities required to be brought in will be more-or-less common where-ever it relocates to and hence will probably not be a critical factor in the decision. It will of curse be a critical factor in the budget.

I was Chairman of the organising committee of a large sporting event for ten years. We relocated the event at short notice (5 weeks) due to foot-and-mouth disease closing off our usual outdoor venue, to a completely new venue. Not only did we have a very short time to make the move, the move unexpectedly resulted in a three-fold increase from around 2000 to 6000 attendees. Therefore I don't underestimate how big and daunting the task is. Small beer compared to FL perhaps, but what I would say is that where there's a will, there's a way.

[GeeRam]

I think Sywell is worth another look, despite GeeRam's well made earlier comments. It has many advantages including parallel hard and grass runways, although each are only about 80% of the length of Duxford's, and it is only around 40 miles/15 minutes flying time from Duxford to allow pilots to shuttle backwards and forwards and swop aircraft. Sywell also has an active war-bird community including restoration workshops, and the airfield has very much the right "ethos" in regard to vintage aviation with for example its art-deco era clubhouse. Sywell is also located in reasonably clear airspace away from both Luton and Stansted movements.

The logistics and costs of car-parking for say 20,000 visitors, together with all the catering and toilet etc amenities required to be brought in will be more-or-less common where-ever it relocates to and hence will probably not be a critical factor in the decision. It will of curse be a critical factor in the budget.

I was Chairman of the organising committee of a large sporting event for ten years. We relocated the event at short notice (5 weeks) due to foot-and-mouth disease closing off our usual outdoor venue, to a completely new venue. Not only did we have a very short time to make the move, the move unexpectedly resulted in a three-fold increase from around 2000 to 6000 attendees. Therefore I don't underestimate how big and daunting the task is. Small beer compared to FL perhaps, but what I would say is that where there's a will, there's a way.

Sywell and Old Warden are probably the only viable 'local' options.

Sywell also does have the benefit of much more local accommodation as well, and cheaper rates than Cambridge. There's two Premier Inn's and a Travelodge in cab distance from the airfield, as well as numerous other B&B's around the north-east of Northampton and nearby Wellingborough.

[roger4]

What length is OW's runway? Wikipedia reports it at 508m, which may not be accurate as this seems much shorter than I recall from visits over the last couple of years and given that they happily operate Spitfires and Hurricanes off it.

Mind you, I know the cross runway is very short, having had a close shave with the boundary hedge many moons ago in a C172 with 4 up, trying to get off grass that was longer and wetter than we appreciated - thank goodness the nosewheel hit a rabbit hole or similar and bounced us into the air......

[treadigraph]

Total landing length of 21 at OW appears to be about 3000' - 03 is shorter for some reason as the southern extension beyond the estate road that crosses doesn't appear to be useable for landing, but OK for take of I presume.

[posso]

Surely the answer is to move it all down the road to Stanstead, ample parking at bargain prices. Given the current much reduced levels of airline traffic all those Ryanair flights could be diverted into Duxford for the weekend.
OK the old 737 brake linings will take a bit of a hammering, but mucho cost savings in landing fees at DX compared to STN, sure MOL would be up for it!

[Freefly170]

Such a shame, I love flying into Duxford and Legends is such a fantastic show, Hard to see how it could relocate in UK with so many airfields being closed or restricted. However if it does move to Europe my vote would be for Mollis, a beautiful ex Swiss AF base tucked away in the mountains not far from Zurich, absolutely stunning backdrop and they hold a show called the Zigermeet there every couple of years which usually features good participation from EU warbirds including those from the Red Bull collection.

[fauteuil volant]

I note that no-one has suggested Shoreham!

[treadigraph]

I note that no-one has suggested Shoreham!

I'd love it to be hosted there, but...

I wonder if a "mass" protest to IWM would be of any use?

[GeeRam]

I wonder if a "mass" protest to IWM would be of any use?

I doubt it.

It will be interesting to see if there's any significant 'vote with their feet' at the Sept airshow in a few weeks time in light of what's happened?

[robin]

The great things about Duxford is the runway length and access to the museum (and facilities).

Flying Legends is a long day - last time I launched at 10:00 to arrive for a 12:00 slot, spent a very hot day on the airfield, launched again at 18:40 arriving back at home airfield at 20:30 and in the pub by 21:15.

if it goes anywhere it has to be at a centrally-located airfield, with massive parking and hangars with interesting aircraft (for when it rains or is too hot)

Duxford is perfect - though a slog from the SW - so I really hope a solution can be found to stay at Duxford.

My favoured alternative would be Fairford or Kemble. Or Newquay

[DHfan]

I wonder if a "mass" protest to IWM would be of any use?

Sadly people who make that sort of decision, however obviously inane, are never wrong.

Newquay's too far away from anywhere and everywhere.

Duxford has so much going for it, I have a nasty suspicion that nowhere else is actually feasible, financially and logistically. That's for operators and attendees.

[Flugplatz]

Bit left field, but what about Thorney Island or Lee-on-Solent? Thorney Island a bit better for overwater displays and lots of supporting airfiields e.g. historic Eastleigh, Goodwood, Shoreham, Southampton.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

For What it is worth - # 48 & # 50 say it all.

I have attended on three separate occasions, visits to Duxford, amongst many of the other Aviation sites in the UK and the Continent, purely as a 'delighted tourist / enthusiast'....

All the way from OZ.

Paid my 'tourist money' / contributed to the 'Pommy' economy, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Also enjoyed the other museums / static display aircraft there as well, including, but not limited to, the 'Historic Significance'.of Duxford being Duxford..

It IS the 'Complete Package' !!

VERY Glad I got to go there whilst it was / is there...........

Perhaps 'tis time for some 'cool heads' from the Gummint to step in and give some timely advice - the 'Tourist Pounds' cannot be ignored......

[jumpseater]

As far as viable and currently serviceable airfields go, Wittering could fit the bill.
Operation: Class G airspace, big currently serviceable runway, and airfield site including ATC. Reasonably centrally places for visiting aircraft. Downside, A1M crosses eastern undershoot.

Public :Easy access via A1/A14. Plenty of space for on site parking at the western end. Stamford close by for rail/bus link.

Would RAF allow site use? Dunno.

[POBJOY]

The Government needs to remind 'The Management Suits' at the IWM that they exist as a National facility to provide a Museum service for the Country (and indeed our Visitors) and that they are lucky that the private sector actually contribute so much in providing the 'Living past' of actual flying machines that is tech challenging and expensive.
We now take it for granted to see large numbers of historic aircraft operating in their element which would not happen if the Warbird movement did not exist.
Museums frequently end up being run to suit the Museum management, and fail to loose sight of what they really are there to do which is provide the public with the opportunity to explore the past in an affordable way, (free in Wales).
The ability to see and hear combat machines in the air is a fantastic experience and indeed a great attraction to overseas visitors, so the IWM need to 'get real' and not throw the baby out with the bath water, and accept that the benefit to 'ALL' is more important than bean counting. Effectively the Government are the paymasters so some cogent words in the right ears are needed to 'prod the suits' back to reality.
Jock Mailtland had it right at Biggin decades ago.

[GeeRam]

Perhaps 'tis time for some 'cool heads' from the Gummint to step in and give some timely advice - the 'Tourist Pounds' cannot be ignored......

LOL!

No 'cool' heads in our current Govt, and they've got other things on their minds at the moment, and frankly, its such a small fry issue, it won't even register at Govt level. Plus the type of people in our Govt currently are very much of the same ilk as the lady curator at IWM, so Govt won't be on 'our' side.

[GeeRam]

Bit left field, but what about Thorney Island or Lee-on-Solent? Thorney Island a bit better for overwater displays and lots of supporting airfiields e.g. historic Eastleigh, Goodwood, Shoreham, Southampton.

Thorney is no longer operational as an airfield, and access down the single road would be a nightmare for 40k people etc.., so not viable at all.

Lee has too much housing around it for a safe display area I would think looking at it on a map in relation to the runway?

I think Sywell or Kemble are the only likely options. Sywell is just close enough to Duxford to be seen to be keeping it local, but I'm still not convinced Sywell is that viable.
Kemble has issues as well with its proximity to Fairford, so TFC would have to look at moving the traditional Legends weekend by several weeks.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

RE " It won't even register at Govt level......"

Where is / who is - the Local member..??
IF his / her seat came into question, then he / she = them = Govt..... might be be 'interested' after all...??

[DHfan]

With the possible exception of Sywell, I can't see that any of the suggestions, however well-meaning, would be financially viable for TFC.

Without exception, they're much too far away from their home base.

[POBJOY]

LOL!

No 'cool' heads in our current Govt, and they've got other things on their minds at the moment, and frankly, its such a small fry issue, it won't even register at Govt level. Plus the type of people in our Govt currently are very much of the same ilk as the lady curator at IWM, so Govt won't be on 'our' side.

Nice to see that you are keeping politics out of the thread !!!! Amazing so many people voted for the 'current' Gov, and they secured so many seats must be all of the same 'ILK' as you would say. However I will make a point of speaking to a Minister re the IWM position and try to get some sense into the arena, you may think it is small fry, but Duxford is a very high profile operation and attracts many overseas visitors therefore decisions taken that affect its ability to obtain best value for the UK and the 'product' it could support is very much of Gov interest, and when the CV issue is past we will still be in the UK tourist, and Museum business for which we have a good reputation.. It strikes me that the Legends has become a major attraction therefore every effort should be made to 'ENABLE' its future at its current base. It would be a major Own Goal for Duxford to loose it. They need to get the bean counters a pair of overalls and give them some 'Hangar Jobs' so they see how lucky they are to have such a rich variety of Living History on site. The whole thing beggars belief and needs some heads knocking.

[GeeRam]

Nice to see that you are keeping politics out of the thread !!!! Amazing so many people voted for the 'current' Gov, and they secured so many seats must be all of the same 'ILK' as you would say. However I will make a point of speaking to a Minister re the IWM position and try to get some sense into the arena, you may think it is small fry, but Duxford is a very high profile operation and attracts many overseas visitors therefore decisions taken that affect its ability to obtain best value for the UK and the 'product' it could support is very much of Gov interest, and when the CV issue is past we will still be in the UK tourist, and Museum business for which we have a good reputation.. It strikes me that the Legends has become a major attraction therefore every effort should be made to 'ENABLE' its future at its current base. It would be a major Own Goal for Duxford to loose it. They need to get the bean counters a pair of overalls and give them some 'Hangar Jobs' so they see how lucky they are to have such a rich variety of Living History on site. The whole thing beggars belief and needs some heads knocking.

I think you're missing the point entirely....or not grasping what has happened here.
Small fry, or niche audience in their words is what IWM referred to us as, not me.

IWM in their view, are doing exactly what you are talking about doing, and looking to increase visitors and footfall, and increase monies into their pot, as per their statement regarding Legends ending at Duxford.
The point is they clearly don't see Legends as providing that, being such a niche audience in their words, and wanted a bigger slice of the pie from TFC to keep it going, but knowing that TFC probably wouldn't on those terms, thereby giving them that airshow slot back in their own calander to do with as they see fit to do what you are suggesting.

[Asturias56]

The only way to get the Govt to change its mind is to get articles in the Mail, Telegraph or Express

[VictorGolf]

Would RAF Wyton work? The runway seemed to be in good order when I flew over last week. Road access isn't too bad and the land to the North isn't too developed.so giving a relatively safe "post -Shoreham" area for the display. And it's not too far from Duxford.

[Tocsin]

Would RAF Wyton work? The runway seemed to be in good order when I flew over last week. Road access isn't too bad and the land to the North isn't too developed.so giving a relatively safe "post -Shoreham" area for the display. And it's not too far from Duxford.

Last week? Could you see the state of the runway through the vehicles stored upon it? ;) (Google Earth, but seen at ground level with my own eyes recently...)
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x930/wyton_583995e4148ec81727ad2896ab8c3ee545c9ca70.jpg

[DHfan]

The trouble with everywhere suggested so far is infrastructure to support Joe Public.

I feel I'm beating a lone drum here - and I may be completely wrong anyway - but I personally don't believe that Legends as we know it, or even watered down a bit, could work anywhere except at Duxford.

Bear in mind TFC's location and after that all the support infrastructure for the visitors, starting with the M11, and then continue with everything else at Duxford that built up over the years, including local-ish train, buses from Cambridge, the number of available parking spaces, what to do if anybody gets a bit bored...

Back to bashing my head against a brick wall. Whatever suggestion anybody comes up with - it ain't going to work. It's Duxford or nowhere.

[rutley]

The development is for a company called Faradair, who are trying to make an electric aircraft. It is on the eastern side of the M11,by the A505, not the south side of the airfield. And there are 800 houses included in the planning application also. This is not he first time an application has gone in for that land, but if successful, it would restrict flying at Duxford a great deal.

[rutley]

IWM at Duxford have been trying to increase footfall and income for many years. They talk of 400,000 per annum through the gates, but that figure was nearly reached many years ago. It has declined steadily since due to people having far more choice on where to go and choosing where to spend their hard earned money.Like many other museums and venues in the UK, IWM Duxford have swallowed the corporate entertainment pill and are attempting to move up market. Removing Flying Legends will not help their business plan at all.

It is most likely that Marshall Aerospace at Cambridge will move to Wyton. They have talked of leaving Cambridge and cited Duxford(!), Cranfield and Wyton as likely places to go to. Duxford is now ruled out, Cranfield is too far away for a lot of their employees, leaving only Wyton. Time will tell.

[GeeRam]

The trouble with everywhere suggested so far is infrastructure to support Joe Public.

I feel I'm beating a lone drum here - and I may be completely wrong anyway - but I personally don't believe that Legends as we know it, or even watered down a bit, could work anywhere except at Duxford.

Bear in mind TFC's location and after that all the support infrastructure for the visitors, starting with the M11, and then continue with everything else at Duxford that built up over the years, including local-ish train, buses from Cambridge, the number of available parking spaces, what to do if anybody gets a bit bored...

Back to bashing my head against a brick wall. Whatever suggestion anybody comes up with - it ain't going to work. It's Duxford or nowhere.

You're not alone, I wrote the same on here days ago.

I'm sure TFC will try, but I'm reminded of what happened to the Great Warbirds show at West Malling when that venue was lost to development, and moved to Wroughton, which on the face of it could have been a good location, but it just didn't work, all the atmosphere was lost in the expanse of Wroughton, and anyway, the Science Musuem were clearly not interested either.
As it happens, Legends was effectively born out of the demise of Great Warbirds and Fighter Meet at North Weald.

[WHBM]

Duxford did it for me when they insisted that you had to buy tickets for Flying Legends in advance only, apparently a knee-jerk reaction to the Shoreham accident. You couldn't even buy on line on the morning. Well, when I paid at the gate I went most years, just not when raining. Pay in advance ? I never did it. I wonder how much their attendance and income fell when they introduced this, and whether this has anything to do with the end of the show.

Idiots. I see that Diane Lees, IWM Director, (and CBE, inevitably) comes from a background of museum administrations of various sorts, and presumably does not know one end of an aircraft from the other. It must be terrifying to one whose career has involved mainly putting dolls in glass boxes to have The Balbo coming for you. They've even had the gall to write about the demise (above) in a gung-ho, positive tone.

[DHfan]

I was the same with advance tickets, until then we'd been every year for about 15 years and chosen the day at the time, based on the weather.

The positive tone doesn't surprise me either.
It was the same with replacing Friends of Duxford with Friends of the Imperial War Museum. Even with a special discounted deal for existing members they got about 15% take-up. I imagine that was considered successful and the "genius" that thought of the idea was probably promoted.

[GeeRam]

. I see that Diane Lees, IWM Director, (and CBE, inevitably) comes from a background of museum administrations of various sorts, and presumably does not know one end of an aircraft from the other. It must be terrifying to one whose career has involved mainly putting dolls in glass boxes to have The Balbo coming for you. They've even had the gall to write about the demise (above) in a gung-ho, positive tone.

It wasn't her that made the Tweet mentioned in earlier posts.

The Tweet was made by IWM Duxford Curator Emily Charles (and from her personal Twitter account, not official IWM one) but your summation is equally applicable, even though she has pretty much worked at Duxford for nearly 10 years in various roles, as well as nearly a year at the National Army Museum, and a short spell at Bletchley Park, so you would think she'd know better......:rolleyes:

[Bill16STN]

It wasn't her that made the Tweet mentioned in earlier posts.

The Tweet was made by IWM Duxford Curator Emily Charles (and from her personal Twitter account, not official IWM one) but your summation is equally applicable, even though she has pretty much worked at Duxford for nearly 10 years in various roles, as well as nearly a year at the National Army Museum, and a short spell at Bletchley Park, so you would think she'd know better......:rolleyes:

I seem to recall a bust up at Bletchley Park concerning a fence being put up to stop visitors crossing over to visit?

https://bletchleypark.org.uk/visit-us/the-national-museum-of-computing?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqIChk4XD6wIVmu7tCh0F_QHNEAAYASAA EgJl6_D_BwE
"TNMOC operates independently of the Bletchley Park Trust and has its own separate entrance located at the top of the Park, just beyond the main car parks."
Bu66ered that one up as well then?

[WHBM]

I
"TNMOC operates independently of the Bletchley Park Trust and has its own separate entrance located at the top of the Park, just beyond the main car parks."
Bu66ered that one up as well then?
Yes, I remember going to Bletchley Park and associated exhibits, and thinking the customers were on the receiving end of a turf war between administrators.

[VictorGolf]

I'm not sure, but I think the IWM had to go to prepaid tickets because the traffic authorities/police needed to know in advance, post Shoreham, what the numbers would be so measures could be pit in place in the event of an accident. Payment in advance helped in that respect. I don't know what the impact was on sales.

[DHfan]

I may be being cynical, but I assumed the change to advance pre-paid tickets was so any financial risk was transferred from the organisers/promotors to the public.

[GeeRam]

I may be being cynical, but I assumed the change to advance pre-paid tickets was so any financial risk was transferred from the organisers/promotors to the public.

That was my understanding as well.

[Flugplatz]

Thanks GeeRam,
I suppose access in and out at Thorney is a real Achilles heel,
Is it certain that FL won't be carrying on at Duxford and it isn't an opening negotiating position? seems I remember a lot of this sort of thing with Bernie Ecclestone and F1 moving from Silverstone etc

[DHfan]

I don't know why people keep even mentioning sites so far from Duxford as potential venues. With operating costs stated to be £10-12,000 per hour and I guess a good hour and a half round trip per aircraft there's no chance that TFC would even consider it.

[WB627]

Same mentality that closed the Science Museum at Wroughton to the public.

[GeeRam]

Such a shame that the bloody Army dug up most of the runways at Bassingbourn down the road, and planted trees and dug a pond on such a historic airfield.....especially when you consider the RIAT team held a big airshow there as recently as 1978 on the alternate years of RIAT at Greenham Common.

[cyflyer]

Travelling from London to Aberdeen I dropped in at Cosford to have a look around. I paid the entrance fee and went in
But entrance to Cosford , and Hendon, is free. Was it a special event ? Incidentally, think of all the other shows we have lost this year. I would have been at Bruntingthorpe yesterday, alas, that is gone now for good...

[treadigraph]

Flying Legends and Shoreham were the only airshows I attended in the last decade, plans to visit Shuttleworth kept being made but as the shows are regular it was harder to focus on one weekend and the group never quite gelled. This year we might have done... maybe next year.

Unless Legends can regroup somewhere within a reasonable travelling distance, very sadly that will be it for me.

Since Shoreham, and as I understood that the good people of the town were not in principal against an airshow in future, I had thought a Hove/Shoreham/Worthing seafront event would be worth considering - say a mile long display line at some point between two of those towns and perhaps the opportunity to see the aircraft on the ground at Shoreham and perhaps provide parking. Wonder if Brendan could work up a boat top landing act or crazy flying in a float plane Cub.

[Flugplatz]

Agree that Brighton/Hove/Shoreham seafront could be a good location with a huge local 'catchment area'. The Red Arrows used to regularly perform at Brighton (ergo the Hawk clipping the mast of a yacht between the piers). As an ATC cadet we used to be detailed-off to help the RAF ground display counterpoint set up their 'kit' Hawk on Hove lawns; in fact I got a quick ride in the RAF Gazelle that also landed there during the event (1983 or so?). The RAF rescue tender also used to attend and I remember they hosted Anne Nightingale on board one afternoon.
Flug

[POBJOY]

Flying Legends and Shoreham were the only airshows I attended in the last decade, plans to visit Shuttleworth kept being made but as the shows are regular it was harder to focus on one weekend and the group never quite gelled. This year we might have done... maybe next year.

Unless Legends can regroup somewhere within a reasonable travelling distance, very sadly that will be it for me.

Since Shoreham, and as I understood that the good people of the town were not in principal against an airshow in future, I had thought a Hove/Shoreham/Worthing seafront event would be worth considering - say a mile long display line at some point between two of those towns and perhaps the opportunity to see the aircraft on the ground at Shoreham and perhaps provide parking. Wonder if Brendan could work up a boat top landing act or crazy flying in a float plane Cub.

Brendan Just arriving and playing to the crowd is a display in itself !!!! He is not easy to miss.

[GeeRam]

Agree that Brighton/Hove/Shoreham seafront could be a good location with a huge local 'catchment area'. The Red Arrows used to regularly perform at Brighton (ergo the Hawk clipping the mast of a yacht between the piers).

The Reds need a large piece of sky to display, something like TFC's Gladiator would be lost at a seafront display, not to mention many of the ground aspects of Legends would mean I seriously doubt TFC would even consider such a venue.

[andrewn]

What's so sad about this thread is the absolute dearth of viable alternate venues. Unfortunately, with airfields being brownfield sites they are a dying breed, driven by our rush to urbanisation (with retarded slogans like buildbuildbuild) and a never ending population increase meaning minority activities like GA, airshows, motorsports are being squeezed at each end as there is simply no physical space left for those that enjoy them to do so.

Sad times, but it's been coming for a while....

[WHBM]

What's so sad about this thread is the absolute dearth of viable alternate venues.
More sad is there's nothing wrong with Duxford as a venue, but their management just pursue their own agendas instead of continuing what was one of the spectacles of the aviation world - which is surely what they were put there to provide in the first place.

[GeeRam]

More sad is there's nothing wrong with Duxford as a venue, but their management just pursue their own agendas instead of continuing what was one of the spectacles of the aviation world - which is surely what they were put there to provide in the first place.

They are pursuing the money......probably under instruction from Lambeth.

You only have to look at the proposal to house Marshall's of Cambridge on the airfield in a new complex built in the sw corner that would have ended all airshows there anyway due to CAA overfly rules, as well as the new on site hotel proposal behind the Superhanger to help with the corporate income.

Yes, they may say they still want to hold their 6 airshow days per year, but I also think they will be just as happy if there was no airshows if there is another way to gain income without the need for them at all.

[WHBM]

They are pursuing the money......probably under instruction from Lambeth.

You only have to look at the proposal to house Marshall's of Cambridge on the airfield in a new complex built in the sw corner that would have ended all airshows there anyway due to CAA overfly rules, as well as the new on site hotel proposal behind the Superhanger to help with the corporate income.

Yes, they may say they still want to hold their 6 airshow days per year, but I also think they will be just as happy if there was no airshows if there is another way to gain income without the need for them at all.
Well in that case we might as well knock down all museums, and develop the land for housing.

Of course, the substantial government grant to the museum administrators and their 6-figure salaries would continue. We can't do away with that.

[GeeRam]

Well in that case we might as well knock down all museums, and develop the land for housing.


I think its more that people who look after museums and artifacts, think of preservation, and in terms of aircraft, that likely conflicts with actually flying them.

Having them hanging from wires etc. in the hangars and halls is one thing, flying them is another matter, and I bet most of the IWM staff would be more than happy to see Duxford stop being an active airfield...and become just a static museum site.

[VictorGolf]

Here's a "left field" thought. How about Silverstone? They've got the access problem sorted, good infrastructure and Turweston nearby for landing/take-offs. They could probably do with the revenue despite the two grand prix.

[GeeRam]

Here's a "left field" thought. How about Silverstone? They've got the access problem sorted, good infrastructure and Turweston nearby for landing/take-offs. They could probably do with the revenue despite the two grand prix.

Legends is more than just an airshow.....its about atmosphere, the flight line walks, the living history displays etc., and none of that will work with aircraft not on the ground etc.

Silverstone is about as numb and souless venue as you could get, even for motorsport its about as dull as dishwater, let alone vintage warbirds.

[andrewn]

Here's a "left field" thought. How about Silverstone? They've got the access problem sorted, good infrastructure and Turweston nearby for landing/take-offs. They could probably do with the revenue despite the two grand prix.

Yes, very left field and not gonna happen, it's not an airfield for one thing. The only sensible potential options appear to be either North Weald or Kemble. Scampton would be perfect, if only those clowns that purport to be a Government had an ounce of respect for our heritage, which they dont of course.

[VictorGolf]

I bet the Stansted controllers would really enjoy an airshow right under their departures from 22.. Isn't this what killed the Fighter Meet or whatever it was called? The seaside airshows at Eastbourne etc seem to get good crowds without a walkabout and as for Silverstone being dull, have you been there at the Classics race weekend?

[GeeRam]

I bet the Stansted controllers would really enjoy an airshow right under their departures from 22.. Isn't this what killed the Fighter Meet or whatever it was called? The seaside airshows at Eastbourne etc seem to get good crowds without a walkabout and as for Silverstone being dull, have you been there at the Classics race weekend?

Yes, that's what largely killed off Fighter Meet (along with the building of the new housing estate just outside the airfield boundary)

Eastborne airshow crowd is not Legends airshow crowd. Legends will not work as a seaside airshow.

And yes I have been to Silverstone Classic, once (never again).....and its awful.......not a patch on Goodwood Revival for atmosphere (or Spa) or the old historic events that used to be at Brands back in the 80's.

[andrewn]

Here's a "left field" thought. How about Silverstone? They've got the access problem sorted, good infrastructure and Turweston nearby for landing/take-offs. They could probably do with the revenue despite the two grand prix.

Yes, very left field and not gonna happen, it's not an airfield for one thing. The only sensible potential options appear to be either North Weald or Kemble. Scampton would be perfect, if only those clowns that purport to be a Government had an ounce of respect for our heritage, which they dont of course.

[VictorGolf]

Gee Ram, you seem very certain Legends wouldn't work as a seaside show to which I would say why not? It might appeal to a completely demographic with a larger audience than Duxford which may be what TFC are after. As for the Silverstone Classic I would beg to disagree as I find the Goodwood crowd pretentious and of the "Right crowd and no crowding" mentality..

[GeeRam]

Gee Ram, you seem very certain Legends wouldn't work as a seaside show to which I would say why not?

For all the reasons I and others have already mentioned.
Too far from home base, with issue around pilot changes, maintainance, aircraft turn arounds, visiting aircraft from Europe and USA)
Too far from crowd, small aircraft like the Gladiator would be utterly lost in the expanse of a seafront display line, plus some like the Gladiator probably couldn't fly a display over water.
Typical seaside audience (often holiday craowd) not in the least interested in vintage warbirds with the 'geeky' Legends style commentary team, and a Legends style display (have you ever been to Legends?)
No ground displays, no-living history displays, not vintage dealer stalls (many don't do other IWM shows at Duxford and are hacked of with IWM decision)
And no its not the crowd TFC are wanting to attract. They had a crowd and an event to be proud of, this isn't TFC's fault, its IWM demanding a bigger slice of the money pie.

As for the Silverstone Classic I would beg to disagree as I find the Goodwood crowd pretentious and of the "Right crowd and no crowding" mentality..

We'll have to just disagree then, as I find Silverstone an utter souless place now, not to mention a once great circuit now utterly ruined by modern F1 demands, and totally the wrong place to race vintage racing cars. You couldn't pay me enough money to watch any event there, let alone historics.

[c52]

Coventry would seem suitable to me unless it's too close to BHX. There's already a museum on site and it's a reasonable day trip for enthusiasts from almost anywhere in England.

[DHfan]

Yes, very left field and not gonna happen, it's not an airfield for one thing. The only sensible potential options appear to be either North Weald or Kemble. Scampton would be perfect, if only those clowns that purport to be a Government had an ounce of respect for our heritage, which they dont of course.

Why have you had to bring your political views into it? What the hell's it got to do with the government?

That apart, what nobody seems to be able to get into their heads, with the notable exception of GeeRam, is that Flying Legends is TFC's event. If it doesn't make financial sense to them, it doesn't matter how many brilliant, off-the-wall, out-of-the-box, left-field, or another current cobblers ideas anybody suggests, it's not going to happen. And again in current terminology - full stop. Anything more than 15 minutes or so flying time isn't worth even considering.

A seaside event, I am reliably informed by elderly relations in Bournemouth, is a great event. One of these days I might even get there but however good it is, it wouldn't and couldn't be Legends as it could never work that way.

[treadigraph]

I certainly wasn't suggesting a Sussex seaside show for Legends, just in general it would potentially be a good site. Too many events have disappeared from the calendar for whatever reason - the demise of Legends in its present form is without doubt one of the daftest and IWM should bloody well think again.

[MaxR]

I bet most of the IWM staff would be more than happy to see Duxford stop being an active airfield...and become just a static museum site.

I think that you're mistaken there, the fact that Duxford is a living airfield has always been important to IWM.

[WHBM]

I think that you're mistaken there, the fact that Duxford is a living airfield has always been important to IWM.
Not any more it seems; all these "museum professionals" climbing the their own world promotion ladder, it is only a matter of time before someone comes in to 'make their own impression' compared to their predecessors. It's happened before elsewhere (Wroughton/Science Museum quoted above one of many examples), in fact I wonder if there's some turf war over aircraft going on between the IWM and the Science Museum. One of the signs is big, expensive projects where they are going to "re-visualise the interpretation", which is often a euphemism for putting half the exhibits into store where they are rarely/never seen again.

Flying Legends was surely THE show at Duxford; before the advance booking silliness it must have given them the biggest attendance of the year.

[DHfan]

If the Science Museum is anything to go by, "revisualising the interpretation" means aim everything at kids, "press here to learn more" and nobody else matters.

[GeeRam]

Flying Legends was surely THE show at Duxford; before the advance booking silliness it must have given them the biggest attendance of the year.

It was also the only show that attracted so many people from around the world that wanted to attend it, with people making the trek from USA, Canada, Aus, NZ, and many European countries. I doubt the same could be said for any other show at Duxford, and not many others in the UK, maybe even including RIAT.

Clearly something that is lost on the 'luvvies' at IWM.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Agree!!
Have been to RIAT - enjoyed it with the NOISE et al., However, it cannot / does not match the 'music' of 'Merlins' and BIG radials et al.......

Whilst I cannot put 'numbers' on it, there are quite a lot who come from 'The Antipodies' simply to attend Duxford - and as many other airshow venues / museums as they can fit in as well.
I know 'we' did!
It IS 'the complete package'.....IMHO.
C'Mon IWM.....Catch up!!!

[Iron Duck]

IWM Duxford Curator has made the following somewhat astonishing recent Tweet, which probably explains as much as anything......:eek:
Never underestimate the destructive power of Woke Women. In the Heritage sector they're all about 'interpreting', which means insisting on their view of history. They actually despise the kind of people who like military aircraft, despite their connotations and original purpose. We tend to be pale, stale and male.

[FAStoat]

Diversity is now the way of this PC Country.The IWM has fallen in with the dreadful changes to the RAF Museum,I very much doubt that such shows as the Flying Legends will be around anymore!.The Flow has gone and the hard work by the Late Tony Harold and his support team at Hendon is no more.Yes you guessed it ,it is run by a fairly youngish woman,who does not understand Big Boys Toys!!

[VictorGolf]

Amidst all the speculation,does anybody have a "hot line" to the Greys to see what their latest thinking might be?

[Herod]

FAStoat: Come to Cosford. We're still pretty much "old school" up here. Aeroplanes rule!!

[GeeRam]

FAStoat: Come to Cosford. We're still pretty much "old school" up here. Aeroplanes rule!!

And of course, while not local to TFC's Duxford base, and thus present some logistical problems, it could still be a suitable location for Legends?

[Herod]

Maybe not possible, but if the RAF played ball, it could be the most suitable/logical alternative.

[Deltasierra010]

There are plenty of airfields that could host the event, but the cost of putting on such an air show is way in excess of any likely income. It certainly doesn’t makes sense to be based at Duxford and hold an air show elsewhere, with development threatening so many other airfield basing elsewhere is precarious.
Most likely opportunities to fly during Duxfords regular events will be offered, using existing crowd control, insurance and traffic arrangements, thereby avoiding expense of special event costs.

[WHBM]

There are plenty of airfields that could host the event, but the cost of putting on such an air show is way in excess of any likely income.
It would be good to know what sort of income came into Flying Legends (pre-online only booking) and what their costs were. By the numbers attending and the price I would be confident they more than broke even. At a museum which, after all, is fully supported by the taxpayer in the first place.

[POBJOY]

It would be good to know what sort of income came into Flying Legends (pre-online only booking) and what their costs were. By the numbers attending and the price I would be confident they more than broke even. At a museum which, after all, is fully supported by the taxpayer in the first place.

You have to have very deep pockets to 'operate' warbirds, and the opportunity for other people to enjoy seeing and hear them fly was a mutual benefit at Duxford.
The difference between static and flying exampes are a million miles apart in both time and money required,plus the actual unique experience. Shows like Legends have become so normal we forget what effort is required to assemble and operate formations of this type,
In fact you could not put a true cost on it as it requires a large input of enthusiasm and volunteer effort.

[GeeRam]

You have to have very deep pockets to 'operate' warbirds, and the opportunity for other people to enjoy seeing and hear them fly was a mutual benefit at Duxford.
The difference between static and flying exampes are a million miles apart in both time and money required,plus the actual unique experience. Shows like Legends have become so normal we forget what effort is required to assemble and operate formations of this type,
In fact you could not put a true cost on it as it requires a large input of enthusiasm and volunteer effort.

Indeed.
Just look at the support from some of the US based warbird owners for Legends over the years, in flying stuff over, and with the likes of Steve Hinton participating, as well as the late Horward Pardue, the Friedkin family, Rod Lewis and others, not to mention those from France and Scandanvia, and elsewhere.

Legends is not just TFC, but TFC bringing the worldwide warbird community together at Duxford for one event.

Shame the ladies at IWM are too ignorant to grasp this, but then they are just museum administrators, nothing else.

[WHBM]

Shame the ladies at IWM are too ignorant to grasp this, but then they are just museum administrators, nothing else.
Wish we had their salaries and gold-plated pensions, though ...

[GeeRam]

Wish we had their salaries and gold-plated pensions, though ...

Yes, I wish too.

After 5 months out of work, and not much chance of getting back into a job anytime soon, being the wrong side of 55, being able to retire early on a nice CS pension is a nice thought.

[DHfan]

I sympathise, the same thing happened to both my sister and brother in law a few years ago. It's a time that, despite being state pension only, I'm grateful about being an old fart.

[Rory57]

Indeed.
Just look at the support from some of the US based warbird owners for Legends over the years, in flying stuff over, and with the likes of Steve Hinton participating, as well as the late Horward Pardue, the Friedkin family, Rod Lewis and others

Yes, and the American air Museum is at Duxford, which is another, and unique, part of the whole "WarBirds at Duxford" success story.

[GeeRam]

Yes, and the American air Museum is at Duxford, which is another, and unique, part of the whole "WarBirds at Duxford" success story.

Yes, and the fact that many of the US Warbird owners as well as well known pilots couldn't resist the lure of flying a warbird at Legends, not just because of the air display, but the fact that it was held at a historic base used by USAAF units during WW2, and that now houses the AAM.

I suspect that, many of them won't be so bothered about dipping into their wallets to take part in a new show that is to be held at a venue without those historic to them connections.
And that's why, when people mention the likes of Sywell and Old Warden etc as venues, or even some others, the lack of a historic connection to a USAAF airbase seems to be lost on many.

Unfortunately we've now lost almost all those bases from an aviation point of view, so that makes the loss of Duxford for Legends much more of an issue to the whole raison d etre of the event, which I think will be lost at almost any other venue that they can move it to.

[Blacksheep]

I just wonder of the Legends grew too big with so many visiting aircraft? The gate takings don't grow at the same rate and the Legend's share then gets spread too wide, across too many aeroplanes.

[treadigraph]

I would have said there weren't quite as many participating aircraft in the last several years, European based aircraft have certainly been fewer I think.

I wonder if Legends should be "rested" for a further year with a view to reassessing Duxford with IWM as a venue for 2022.

[GeeRam]

I just wonder of the Legends grew too big with so many visiting aircraft? The gate takings don't grow at the same rate and the Legend's share then gets spread too wide, across too many aeroplanes.

The 'peak' numbers of participating aircraft was many years ago now, numbers have dwindled somewhat in the past decade or so. Maybe, this was what the AAM curator was meaning to reference in her poorly thought out Tweet rather than what she did write...?

[WHBM]

Has there been any move to request the resignation of the IWM Director General over their failure to come to an agreement over this ?

[GeeRam]

Has there been any move to request the resignation of the IWM Director General over their failure to come to an agreement over this ?

I think you're missing the point that the IWM are clearly not bothered by it, as they are under instruction to generate more income, so wanted a bigger slice of the pie from TFC, no doubt fully aware that if TFC said Foxtrot Oscar, IWM would then gain the display slot back soley for themselves, so they can put on another generic airshow that better suits their view of what the IWM is now all about.
Only time will tell if that works for them, or whether they have shot themselves in the foot.

[Good Vibs]

Over the last many many years my friends, family and I have come from Germany to see and enjoy the Flying Legends Airshow.
This with the cost of travel, hotels, rent-a-cars (2), etc, etc. Normally staying in the UK for a week.
We won't do this to see a "regular" airshow.
Sorry about that! Their loss!
I'am sure we are not the only overseas visitors who think the same.
And I doubt that overseas owners of warbirds, esp the USA, will come for a "regular" airshow as they have done in the past. A great loss!

Maybe we will reverse course and do a 180° turn and fly to the states and meet our friends who came over for the FL.
Instead we will visit the airshows where warbirds are featured. There are lots to choose from, From Planes of Fame, Virginia Beach, Michigan Willow Run Airport, Geneseo Airshow & of course the huge Oshkosh gathering.

[DHfan]

According to a post on the sad remains of the Flypast forum, the new venue has been confirmed as Sywell.
I guess it's probably the only financially viable option. I've no idea how long it would take to fly there in a Spitfire or other fighter from Duxford but TFC seem to think it will work. Good luck to them.

[GeeRam]

According to a post on the sad remains of the Flypast forum, the new venue has been confirmed as Sywell.
I guess it's probably the only financially viable option. I've no idea how long it would take to fly there in a Spitfire or other fighter from Duxford but TFC seem to think it will work. Good luck to them.

Its only 40 miles direct between the two, so 10-15 mins depending on aircraft type.

It probably was the only likely option as discussed already. Will be interesting to see how they overcome those issues already discussed in this thread, including the fact that its a much smaller venue, so likely will be a very different event.

I'm not sure it will happen though as the chances of many shows actually taking place next summer I think is still very much in doubt.

[treadigraph]

Good tech support available from Air Leasing on site. Years since I've been to Sywell (34 I think, where HAS the time gone...?), wonder how well it will cope with traffic...?

[Doctor Cruces]

Wish we had their salaries and gold-plated pensions, though ...
FFS STILL whinging on about public service salaries and perks.
Thanks too virulent campaigns by the like of the Sun and the Daily Fail many years ago (to jump on the bandwagon to appease the likes of you) public service pensions are not what they were. The pay was traditionally crap with the bonus of having a good (ish) pension to make up for it if you stuck it out for 35+ years. Pay is still crap butyou will find that there are not many who can retire early without HUGE pension penalties and the value of these has been eroded too along the lines of pay more get much less. If you want to do something constructive, nag the government to chase all the tax dodgers. That would most likely adequately compensate for public service pensions.

[Doctor Cruces]

Yes, I wish too.

After 5 months out of work, and not much chance of getting back into a job anytime soon, being the wrong side of 55, being able to retire early on a nice CS pension is a nice thought.
What I said to WHBM

[DHfan]

Yes, two months ago, so nobody is still going on about it apart from you.

[barry lloyd]

Its only 40 miles direct between the two, so 10-15 mins depending on aircraft type.

It probably was the only likely option as discussed already. Will be interesting to see how they overcome those issues already discussed in this thread, including the fact that its a much smaller venue, so likely will be a very different event.

I'm not sure it will happen though as the chances of many shows actually taking place next summer I think is still very much in doubt.


I live not far from there and recently attended 'Props and Pistons'. There were lots of cars and very few aircraft. The road to the airfield from the east is through a small village and although this was a relatively small event, there was a lot of traffic. Parking was in a farmer's field - not a problem as such because the weather was dry. Quite how Sywell will cope with this both in terms of dealing with spectators and flying visitors, if it does come to pass, remains to be seen.

[GeeRam]

What I said to WHBM

I'm still laughing......

[Quemerford]

According to a post on the sad remains of the Flypast forum, the new venue has been confirmed as Sywell.
I guess it's probably the only financially viable option. I've no idea how long it would take to fly there in a Spitfire or other fighter from Duxford but TFC seem to think it will work. Good luck to them.

Surprised to see mention of the Flypast forum: I thought it was defunct years ago. IIRC they made some daft change which made it near-impossible to navigate. Sounds like that never got fixed.

[DHfan]

It's a pale shadow of its former self and pretty well all the major knowledgeable posters disappeared after a major revamp a year or so back.
I can't believe it was actually a conscious decision to destroy a thriving forum but they couldn't have been more successful if they had been trying.

[GeeRam]

Surprised to see mention of the Flypast forum: I thought it was defunct years ago. IIRC they made some daft change which made it near-impossible to navigate. Sounds like that never got fixed.

Pretty much the case.

Don't know here everyone went, especially some of the authors and historians that frequented the forum. So much knowledge down the pan thanks to the idiots at Key.

[Good Vibs]

The TFC always organized a beautiful airshow. :ok:
If they get together with the people at Sywell for more Flying Legends we will be back.
We will just skip Duxford. We will spend our time and money somewhere else, but not any IWM locations.
Looking at Sywell on google earth it does not look as large as Duxford.
But I'am sure the TFC will have something great organized.
Lets hope for the best.
And that the Covid-19 will not cause any large problems like it does now.

[treadigraph]

Surprised to see mention of the Flypast forum: I thought it was defunct years ago. IIRC they made some daft change which made it near-impossible to navigate. Sounds like that never got fixed.

The Flypast debacle has happened over the last 13 months. I "resigned my membership" when it became obvious they weren't listening to objections to the dreadful changes they had made. Still lurk occasionally... Not that I was a particularly knowledgeable contributor to the fun there...

[DHfan]

Off topic really but related to the Flypast changes, and the updates here a while back. In my experience, software updates, always and without fail, make things worse for the people who actually use whatever it is. I accept that sometimes revisions have to be made as security protocols and other requirements change over time but the developers always seem to find that an excuse to completely change the appearance and tell everybody it's better. This is usually accompanied by a statement about "clean, modern design" which means acres of white space and less than half of the text there used to be on any given page.

Sorry - rant over.

[GeeRam]

Off topic really but related to the Flypast changes, and the updates here a while back. In my experience, software updates, always and without fail, make things worse for the people who actually use whatever it is. I accept that sometimes revisions have to be made as security protocols and other requirements change over time but the developers always seem to find that an excuse to completely change the appearance and tell everybody it's better. This is usually accompanied by a statement about "clean, modern design" which means acres of white space and less than half of the text there used to be on any given page.


Sadly, most of the time its about updating to newer formats that allow better access to people accessing them on mobile devices, which the older forum based systems designed to be accessed from a PC/Laptop etc were not designed to be. With more and more people using mobile devices thats what drives a lot of the changes. From listening to my mates son who works in android app development and calls me a dinosaur for still using a laptop with a mouse, he reckons there will be hardly any web based forums within 10 years, as younger people use other forms of social media and the support for older style forum formats will disappear. From what I've heard it was this reason that prompted Key to make the changes to the Flypast forum. Shame they killed such a great resource, but being mostly populated by old gits, it was no surprise hardly anyone stayed after the huge changes to it. I lasted a week and have not even bothered to look back in there since.

[GeeRam]

Looking at Sywell on google earth it does not look as large as Duxford.


Yes, its much smaller, and there will be issues with numbers limits, car parking, and I suspect, many aircraft will perhaps have to operate from Duxford and fly to and from Sywell as there won't be the space on the ground. That could impact the type of event it was as well.
The crowd line will be able half the length of Duxfords one as well, so, there will be many issues to overcome (Covid permitting it even taking place of course) and we all know that many long running shows struggle to survive after a forced change of venue, the Great Warbirds Show being one of course, the demise of which became the catalyst for the creation of Flying Legends Airshow....!!
My fear is the loss of it being based on a historic WW2 airfield and all that Duxford represented in terms of not only its RAF past but its USAAF past will mean some of the US owners/operators that wanted to play warbirds on this side of the Atlantic will now not be quite so inclined to make the effort.

[Less Hair]

How about combining it with Fairford? Or have some BoB day on the finishing weekend at F'boro? You'd have all the crowd features like security, food and lavs in place already?

[treadigraph]

PPRuNe and Flyer are both sites I use regularly which switch easily between PC and mobile format - I read/contribute to both forums on both systems. Before my employers crashed I was building a new company website which also adapted well to both environments, so I really couldn't understand why Flypast's web developers made such a pigs ear of things...

Anyway - back to Leg Ends and hoping that 2021 will happen - which potentially airworthy type would you most like to see performing at the show apart from the regulars?

Whilst I'd love to see a Tigercat back in the UK (dreaming), the thought of a flying Tempest is mouth watering!

[GeeRam]

Well, I won't be going now after just seeing the date clash...!!
TFC have massively cocked up here, by moving it to a airfield location that close to Northampton and then choosing a date that clashes with the British GP at Silverstone, with Northampton being a major Park n Ride location for Silverstone. The traffic impact in that area from the GP will make accessing Sywell a disaster.
My route to get to Sywell would involve going up the A43 right past Silverstone, so, that's me out.

Oh well.

[treadigraph]

Oh that would be a bugger. I'd probably route up M11 and A14 - I imagine traffic would be pretty bad that route as well.

They usually have coincided haven't they? I seem to remember hearing that Schumacher had broken his leg while I was at Legends. Either that or with RIAT...

[WHBM]

The attractive thing about Duxford was it was also a well-developed national museum, with all the facilities, plus the huge interest in the hangars, the American museum, etc, which enabled the whole family to make a day of it. Sywell may try hard but doesn't really come up to that.

I suppose the only hope is that the proposed new ideas for Duxford don't live up to it financially (quite possible), the new whizz-bang know-nothing management are embarrassed, and get replaced.

[POBJOY]

The Flypast debacle has happened over the last 13 months. I "resigned my membership" when it became obvious they weren't listening to objections to the dreadful changes they had made. Still lurk occasionally... Not that I was a particularly knowledgeable contributor to the fun there...

Ah' We had that amazing 'Bromley Spitfire' thread that ran for quite a time and produced a hoard of info that had never surfaced, not to mention the infamous 'stumps' issue, with the 'matchsticks' re-enactment.

[treadigraph]

Oh yes, the Bromley Spitfire, I had a colleague who witnessed the approach over his home and, as small boys will, ran to the cricket pitch to view the crash site! He wrote it up to fill some space in Fighter Log...

[GeeRam]

Ah' We had that amazing 'Bromley Spitfire' thread that ran for quite a time and produced a hoard of info that had never surfaced, not to mention the infamous 'stumps' issue, with the 'matchsticks' re-enactment.

The best thread on the old defunct Flypast Forum was the infamous Douglas Bader and the Stork Hotel, Liverpool thread, that was just brilliant fun.

[DHfan]

Yes, the old boy got most indignant when nobody believed him, and even more so when several contributors started taking the pee as well.

[GeeRam]

In other possible more encouraging news regarding Legends at Sywell, I've just seen that Autosport on Thursday last week, published the 'Estimated' F1 race schedule for 2021, and it lists the British GP being the week after legends now on 17-18th July........although everything on the Silverstone and official British GP websites still has the date as being 10-11th July....although Silverstone are notoriously slow at website updates.

So, it looks like a wait and see and keep fingers crossed on this date clash situation.......especially as I've heard that the proximity to Silverstone means that Sywell get a lots of GA traffic in and out over the GP weekend, so maybe the timing of the TFC announcement was awaiting GP date confirmation....?

[Quemerford]

Yes, the old boy got most indignant when nobody believed him, and even more so when several contributors started taking the pee as well.

I do miss it. That kind of gentle humour combined with tolerant helpfulness (depending on the initial approach) seemed to strike a nice balance most of the time. I do recall having a colourful exchange with a chap who recalled a crash in Southampton during the war and insisted that he had date, type and casualties 100% correct. I think we unravelled it in the end, with only 'Southampton' being the only thing he'd got correct. Wouldn't have minded but he got quite p!ssy about being presented with irrefutable facts.

Sigh.

[DHfan]

It's not really fair to praise it here, but I suppose the fact that it's effectively defunct helps. At it's best it was amazing. 16 or 17 years ago I asked, separately, about details of a Canberra crash in Southeast Hertfordshire in the middle 50s and which air show I'd been to at Bassingbourn in the late 50s and both were answered within a few hours.

[Nige321]

There's several off-the-shelf packages available that seamlessly run forums on desktop and mobile - Pprune runs on one.
The big mistake Key made was to try and write their own, presumably to save a few bob in licence fees.
I'm quite sure that sving has been long superseded by loss of income...

There was a lot of useful info on Flypast, an experience I always thought spoilt by some over zealous moderators...

[ex egbe]

Coventry would seem suitable to me unless it's too close to BHX. There's already a museum on site and it's a reasonable day trip for enthusiasts from almost anywhere in England.
Unfortunately i fear CVT is out, as all of the south side of the airfeild is now under warehouses, and the noth side is slowly being swallowed up by JLR. although it would be awsome to see it there, there just isnt the infrastructure anymore.

[Quemerford]

What about Duxford? That would be perfect for a warbird show. :ugh:

[treadigraph]

Couple of posts from Richard Grace over on Flypast that certainly reassures me that if it can't be Duxford then Sywell is a good alternative to try.

[GeeRam]

Couple of posts from Richard Grace over on Flypast that certainly reassures me that if it can't be Duxford then Sywell is a good alternative to try.

I think there really is not many other options to try, so they'll have to give it a go at Sywell. Most options were talked about on this thread and others on the subject elsewhere, and it was clear that there really was not many other locations that could be suitable. I think this was what IWM were banking on and pushed TFC for more expecting them to buckle because of the lack of alternatives. It was quite sobering to tot up all the lost venues that were in use only 30+ years ago that would now not be available. Showed that the best days of the UK airshow are long behind us.
However, TFC being fixated on keeping its traditional date slot, I simply think is a non-starter given the proximity of Sywell to the British GP. They really need to move the Legends date ahead or behind enough to move it away from that 1st,2nd, 3rd weekends of the month that the British GP usually falls on.

[DHfan]

The provisional 2021 F1 calendar has been released and currently the British GP is the weekend after Legends.
With all the complaining about them probably being the same weekend, I note that Legends next is still planned to be two days as usual. What's the problem with Saturday, the GP's on Sunday? I know there would be more than normal traffic for practice and qualifying but nowhere near as much as on Sunday.

[DHfan]

There's several off-the-shelf packages available that seamlessly run forums on desktop and mobile - Pprune runs on one.
The big mistake Key made was to try and write their own, presumably to save a few bob in licence fees.
I'm quite sure that sving has been long superseded by loss of income...

There was a lot of useful info on Flypast, an experience I always thought spoilt by some over zealous moderators...

It seems it was probably nothing to do with saving money and more to get an integrated (awful) website.
According to a post I've found on the Secret Projects forum, Key migrated their whole site to Drupal which is apparently a content management system and not designed for forums. As somebody posted there - one of those things that sounded like a good idea,

[NutLoose]

It’s going to Sywell, only fly in that ointment is it’s close to Silverstone and normally on the same weekend.

[roger4]

It is not the same weekend as the Silverstone F1 race - if you read back a couple of posts you will see that the FIA announced the F1 calendar for 2021 yesterday, with the British GP moved back one weekend from normal, i.e. now on 16th - 18th July.