Racism in Turkey?

[gearlever]

Goodbye Expats.
II'm afraid it's not only Turkey...

Turkey Tells Airlines to Consider Firing Expats First Amid Slump (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-21/turkey-tells-airlines-to-consider-firing-expats-first-amid-slump-ke46yiz7)

[rmcdonal]

That would be protectionism not Racism. As I would expect from every country. It's hard to justify bringing in an expat when you have a local who can do the job.

[gearlever]

It' not about "bringing in an expat".

It's about firing Expats.

[KAISERSOZE]

Depends.
If it applies to a European/US expat, it's protectionism, as you said.
But the exact same sentence applied on the other way around is the exact definition of racism :

It's hard to justify bringing in an expat imigrant when you have a local who can do the job.

So I would say yes, it is racism, but in that direction it is acceptable.

[PilotLZ]

I am very sorry for everyone who may be potentially affected - but, sadly, this was all but unexpected. Racism or not, prioritising locals over expats when jobs are scarce is the case pretty much everywhere. Think about all the unfortunate European or Australian guys around Asia who got terminated in the past months. For most of them, their companies didn't "fire" them per se. They just refused to extend their contracts when renewal time came round. Why? Because they have plenty of their own ones to look after. And that becomes even more valid if expats also have higher salaries, accommodation allowances, schooling allowances etc. Those things are both a massive source of jealousy and annoyance to locals and an additional expenditure for the company when times are tough. You'd better accept it as it is than end up heavily disillusioned.

[rmcdonal]

There is a difference between an expat and an immigrant, one is moving to a country to become a citizen, the other is only there for work. They are not the same thing.

[Python27]

I truly believe that this whole situation is a wake up call for many expats, not pilots only...

[GDAJB]

They aren’t discriminating on the basis of “race” they are discriminating seemingly on the basis of an individuals permanent right to live and work in the Republic of Turkey. If you have that right then it wouldn’t seem that someone’s race matters? This is happening all over the world at the moment, where a previous demand for large numbers of expatriate workers is either reduced or no longer exists.

[White Knight]

Sadly racism is a word bandied about far too much! Firing expats is nothing to do with race!

[OutsideCAS]

As long as its applied in other countries, in the UK we should also reciprocate, yes?

[gearlever]

Sadly racism is a word bandied about far too much! Firing expats is nothing to do with race!

Firing Expats/NonCitizens in e.g. Germany and you will get a severe ****storm...

[PilotLZ]

True that, but here we're coming again to the differences between airlines and many other industries. Are there many other industries, apart from airlines and cruise companies, where atypical employment practices are widespread to the extent that they become the norm instead of an exception? It might easily be that local contracts are offered to locals only, with everyone else being employed via a crewing agency headquartered who knows where. Therefore, with their status of contractors VS employees, they are the first one to be deemed surplus to the requirements when it comes to cost trimming.

...and it's not like an awful lot of expats are flying for the Lufthansa group, I think? On a similar note, most other Western European legacy carriers hardly employ any foreigners. And they have their own ways and means of keeping foreign applicants away. You want to fly for Lufthansa? Good, but have you got a German criminal disclosure right from your high-school years? You've got an eye on KLM? Great - but how good is your Dutch, are you fluent in both spoken and written speech? BA? How about getting a UK CAA ATPL and a UK driving licence first? And the list goes on and on, with small variations from country to country. If someone who's not their own national by descent happens to work there, he/she is usually an emigrant and even more often - a child of emigrants. So, despite not being "local" genetically, he's been integrated into the society to the same extent as a national, often right from childhood. With that often comes citizenship, a complete local security file and fluency in the language.

[Jack D]

KAISERSOZE

What are you talking about ? Legal immigration is almost always predicated on relevant qualifications and job availability , nothing whatsoever to do with racism.
These pilots are not immigrants, they are expat skilled workers whose skills are no longer required at the moment.
The racism word is sorely misused these days

[capngrog]

Why would any national flag carrier airline hire Expats to begin with?

[bringbackthe80s]

Just quickly.

First consideration: if you are a contract worker hired by an american/british/oz etc agency, then the fact that you are not renewed during a downturn is unfortunately part of the game. Nothing to do with expat or not.

Second thing: for a company who hires everyone on the same type of permanent contract (I doubt this is the case at THY) then talking about firing expats first is pure nonsense because I am pretty sure inTurkey too it is illegal to discriminate based on blood or passport. But I can tell you from experience there are/were very very few airlines around the world who hire expats on a permanent contract, for exactly this reason.

Lastly, again I am pretty sure most people
in Turkey are NOT on permanent contracts but for those justifying these practices I just want you to tell me if it’s right for a company to use your expertise and experience when they desperately need you and things are good, and then dump you when it gets ugly.
Just imagine if the government in the UK tomorrow suggested firing all non British, just for good measure.

[Macheightfour]

Second thing: for a company who hires everyone on the same type of permanent contract (I doubt this is the case at THY) then talking about firing expats first is pure nonsense because I am pretty sure inTurkey too it is illegal to discriminate based on blood or passport. But I can tell you from experience there are/were very very few airlines around the world who hire expats on a permanent contract, for exactly this reason.


Actually the THY expats are on a permanent contract which has the same conditions as the locals.
They brought in the expats after the Amsterdam crash, at the height of the aviation boom in Turkey THY had about 1000 expats, 1/4 of the pilot force.

In the past years that decreased due to the economic downturn in Turkey, especially the devaluation of the Turkish Lira. Still there are a couple of hundred, mainly widebody captains.

As an expat your future employment hinges on your workpermit, which you may have today but could be gone tomorrow in any of the countries using a lot of expats in aviation. Especially if a government initiative is launched to this effect.

Unfortunate but not unexpected.

Why would any national flag carrier airline hire Expats to begin with?


Because they where growing exponentially and did not have the experience in house, it was a safety choice after the Amsterdam crash to bring in the expats.

[White Knight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/634974-racism-turkey.html#post10867772)
Sadly racism is a word bandied about far too much! Firing expats is nothing to do with race!
Firing Expats/NonCitizens in e.g. Germany and you will get a severe ****storm...

It's still not racism...

I know how it works in UK and Euroland - that would be reverse discrimination... In other words a country screwing it's own citizens! Happens all the time in the so called Western World.

[bringbackthe80s]

Macheightfour

Fine, but this is a different story then just to do with work permits. Say you are married to a Turkish lady then you get to keep your job per se.

[Macheightfour]

Correct, the workpermit remark was a general remark not specific to Turkey, although they can yank that in Turkey as well or not renew it as you normally have it issued for 2 years, probably the last will happen. And in your new example, yes probably but who knows in these strange times.

[tonker]

capngrog

We in the U.K. have been asking that very same question for decades.

[HudsonAnna]

The conversation on anti-Blackness has also made the leap to Turkey. In an unlikely alliance, Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who has been a strong defender of increased police violence since the 2013 Gezi uprisings, condemned the "racist and fascist" mentality that killed Floyd. Some observers found Erdogan's comments insincere and they were quickly turned into a popular meme on Twitter with Black Socialist America's response.