Boeing 727. Why was it relatively unsuccessful in the UK?

[Mooncrest]

As far as I'm aware, there have only been three British airlines to have operated passenger flights with the 727; Dan Air, Sabre and Cougar (I'm not counting BAF's brief dalliance with JAT aircraft circa 1992). I think it's quite well known that, in the mid to late 1960s, BEA was interested in both the 727 and 737 but was steered towards the Trident and 1-11 by the government. Many UK airlines operated the 707 or 720 and the 737 was a popular choice for the IT brigade so what went wrong with the 727 ? Too big for 737 routes, too small for 707 routes ? Insufficient range ? Excessive import duties ? I would have thought (don't ask me why) the 727 would have been ideal for Britannia's and Monarch's more busy Mediterranean routes but it wasn't to be. Dan Air seemed to like them, although I concede they had to make some airframe modifications to keep the CAA happy.

Any ideas ?

[Offchocks]

This is just a guess with regards Monarch, the 720/707 was probably a better fit for their trans Atlantic ops due to initial price, load capacity and range capability.
When Monarch started operating 737-200s and 300s around Europe, they could easily do what the 727 could with a lesser fuel burn, less maintenance and without the additional cost of a flight engineer, no disrespect meant to FEs. Then 757 put an end to the 727.

[reverserunlocked]

Agree with the above. The 727 did see service with flag carriers in many other European countries - Iberia, LH, AF, Olympic etc but the biggest potential U.K. operator was pushed into the Trident, even though they’d rather have had the 727. The 737 came along shortly afterwards so the 727 missed its window of opportunity if you like in the U.K.

[SWBKCB]

Don't think Monarch had a trans-atlantic operation when they bought the 720 - I think they got them cos they were cheap. Remember we are going back to the days of affinity charters etc. The 720 doesn't really have that sort of range and don't remember Monarch having the 707 as a mainline a/c (might have been some short term leases?).

The issue with the 727 in the UK was the amount of work (and money!) required to get them approved by the CAA (stick shakers?)

As an aside, was working a MON 720 from MAN-TLV which was over-booked and I remember walking down the queue of people saying "do you want a jump seat in the cockpit or we will have to leave somebody behind..." - there were no takers and we ended up bumping a family....

[Mooncrest]

As well as the stick shaker, Dan Air's early -46 fleet, acquired from JAL, had an extra over wing exit fitted at the behest of the CAA. This was to permit a higher seating config. I think Monarch did the same with their 720s. I don't know if either of these mods were required on the -200 but I agree, they would have added to purchase and maintenance costs, whether on the production line or post-production.

BEA neatly sidestepped the Flight Engineer issue with the Trident by sitting a third pilot in front of the panel which also meant not having to deal with Engineering unions in the cockpit. I wonder if this might have been allowed with the 727, had the type been more successful in the UK ?

[Mooncrest]

Thankfully we still have the 2excel oil busters and at least one Manx-registered private 727 to keep the machine alive in the UK.

Condor, Iberia and JAT flew the 727 on holiday jollies yet all three had access to lower-capacity aircraft, i.e. the 737 and DC9. There might be something in that.

[GeeRam]

Hmm.....I've got an old thumbed notebook, that says it was a B727 that I flew on in Jan 1989 from Gatwick to Grenoble and then back again a week later when going on a package skiing trip.
I don't recall what the airline was and didn't note it, and I don't recall the specific flight being 30 years ago, and one of many now, other than it was the first time I had flown from Gatwick, so I'm wondering if that is an error now and it wasn't a 727...?

[treadigraph]

GeeRam, Dan-Air most likely. Still going in '89 I think and they had a number of 200s then.

[OC37]

I recall Dan-Air detached a B727 to Australia 1989/1990 to operate the ADL/PER/ADL ETOPS route, Aussies could operate the route with 2 engines using a highway as an alternate, alas the European authorities viewed things differently, trouble was that the B727 that Dan Air detached could carry passengers and fuel but not both at the same time so one B727 came home whilst a replacement B727 went down.

[rog747]

Dan Air's purchase of 3 ex JAL 727-100's saw extensive Mods required by the CAA, and DA's choice to increase pax seating from 131 to a max of 154 by the fitting of 2 rear aft Type A doors (similar location as on 727-200)
Entry into DA service was summer 1973, with 2 more ex JAL door modified 727's following in 1974.
3 more unmodified a/c came on strength by 1977 (1 from Burma and 2 from Delta)
The 727 for DA became their mainstream charter aircraft, with the 189 seat -200 series being added from 1980.

Hapag Lloyd also from 1973 obtained a fleet of ex ANA JAL and TDA 727-100's but had no exit door mods made.

Prior to DA getting the 727 onto the UK register both BMA and Court Line had considered the 727 (-100 and -200 series respectively)
I cannot recall where BMA's were to be obtained from but they were not new.
Court Line went with the Tristar.

Both Channel Airways and BKS/Northeast in 1968 had each ordered a pair of 123-139 seat HS Trident One E-140 aircraft but they were the only carriers to use these on IT routes.
Channel did fly theirs from STN to the Canary Islands.

The only other carriers before DA that had been using 727's for IT charters were Condor (obtained through LH from 1966) and Transair Sweden (3 new 727-100 in 1969)
But Wardair, TIA, AFA and World from 1966 had all used their 727-100's on Transatlantic Affinity charters to LGW.

By the early 70's most package holiday charter airlines in the UK and Germany had gone with the 1-11 or Britannia AW with the 737-200, which at the time both types were not optimal for longer routes to the Canaries and the Greek Islands, but they certainly did often fly down there, either with a reduced payload or with a tech stop.
Hence the likes of Laker, BEA Airtours, Caledonian & Monarch now all having Boeing 707 or 720B's for the longer flights.
Dan Air had been using Comets on their longer IT routes so now the 727 would take these over - using less fuel and carry more pax.

The 737-200ADV with much improved engines came along in 1973/74.
Around late 1979 British Airtours, Britannia, Air Europe, Monarch and Orion all were starting to order new 737-200ADV, 130 seats, 2 crew, with long enough range to see off any 727-100.
In Europe many other charter airlines were also buying the 737-200.
Hence no one else apart from Dan Air ever considered buying 727's in the UK - even Dan Air was to start to build up a 737-200 fleet.

German airlines were not allowed to fly German tourists from Berlin so many UK charter airlines from the 1960's, including DA had a base at TXL, plus Modern Air's CV990's (followed by Aeroamerica 707/720/1-11 and Air Berlin USA 707/737) flew IT's from there too until Reunification.

Other countries at the time were mainly using cast off's, or leases/purchases from within their in-house or affiliated State airlines, these such as Sobelair, Scanair, Luxair, Balair, Condor,
Air Charter Intl, SAM, Martinair Holland who used mainly Caravelle DC-8 DC-9 707 727
LTU in 1973 entered the wide body era with new a Tristar, and Condor had both of their 747's in service by then.
Other airlines to use their new 747's on regular or seasonal IT charter flights were Aer Lingus, BOAC, KLM, Sabena and SAS/Scanair

The Spanish charter airlines were using mainly older jet fleets -
Air Spain TAE & Aviaco all had DC-8's, with TAE Aviaco & Transeurorpa all also using Caravelles and TAE a sole 1-11
Spantax had a jet fleet of CV-990A's, with secondhand DC-8 and DC-9 being added in 1973/74 plus a DC-10 in 1978

In Scandinavia -
Transair Sweden had 3 new 727-100's in 1969 which had the range to the Canary Islands - these flew for Scanair
Scanair used Caravelle DC-8 727 and 747
Sterling had a large fleet of Super 10B3 Caravelles including in 1971 the new Super Star 12 series seating 131-140 passengers, with their first 3 HGW 727-200ADV's added from 1973.
Conair of Scandinavia obtained ex EAL 720-025's in 1971
Karair and Spear Air both had DC-8's in 1972 & Finnair used their own DC-8's frequently on IT charters (and it's DC-10's from 1975)

Nordic Package holidays then was very successful with Tjaereborg (owned by Sterling) and Spies (owner of CONAIR) and VINGRessor who was owned by Scanair...

The popular Yugoslavia holiday charter markets for UK & Germany saw Inex Adria and JAT operate new DC-9's and Aviogenex new Tu-134A's.

Monarch purchased cheaply in 1971 from Northwest 3 x 720B's with a service life expectancy of 5-7 years - MON/OM had these modified to enable 170 seats with adding an extra pair of over-wing exits. A few more were added in subsequent years, along with 707-120B's.
Also in 1971 BEA Airtours obtained a growing fleet of ex BOAC RR 707-420's which KT used mainly on IT holiday charters.

A Question was asked above -
''Don't think Monarch had a trans-Atlantic operation when they bought the 720 - I think they got them cos they were cheap. Remember we are going back to the days of affinity/ABC charters etc. The 720 doesn't really have that sort of range...''

Monarch did operate Caribbean charters at first mainly to St Lucia with the 720B and used the Azores for tech stops.
Subsequently, in 1981 a 707-355C was leased from BCAL enabling non-stop flights to the Caribbean which for Monarch did become quite a money earner in later years.

I may have possible gone off on a ''post lock-down Covid boredom tangent'' but I think I have outlined maybe why the 727 never saw early service on IT flights in the UK.

It must be said that later on we saw the 727-200 series on much more IT work with Dan Air, Sterling, Condor, Hapag Lloyd, Air Atlantis, Air Colombus, JAT, Aviogenex

Dan Air never ventured much further than Tel Aviv or Banjul with their 727's
but Sterling did plenty of long haul with theirs - Mombasa, Colombo Malé International Airport, Hulhulé Maldives, Fort Lauderdale Miami YYZ were some of the places they flew to.

[bean]

Oc37, the Australian airlines leased in numerous British charter aircraft at the time to which you refer.
Australian pilots went on a prolonged strike

[Mooncrest]

A largely missed opportunity for the 727 in the UK, but the type was also bypassed by flag carriers such as KLM, SAS and Swissair - all largely McDonnell Douglas customers anyway. Sabena operated the 100 for a spell but they too went for the 737 in the end. The story could well have played out differently had the UK government let BEA have their way in 1966.

rog - a detailed and fascinating account🙂.

[Allan Lupton]

The story could well have played out differently had the UK government let BEA have their way in 1966.

It was "BEA having their way" that caused de Havilland to reduce the size of the aeroplane they were designing for BEA so that we " . . . designed an internationally unwanted airliner with scaled-down engines that RR knew they could not sell elsewhere." The original DH121 was B727 size in most respects so history shows that our (and Boeing's) original sizing was right and BEA was wrong.

[OC37]

Oc37, the Australian airlines leased in numerous British charter aircraft at the time to which you refer.
Australian pilots went on a prolonged strike

Yes, along with other European carriers also, but only one of those carriers had anything with 3 or more engines whilst European twins couldn't operate to/from PER.

And it wasn't a strike, it was a dispute!

[Level bust]

Monarch did operate Caribbean charters at first mainly to St Lucia with the 720B and used the Azores for tech stops.

[Level bust]

Monarch did operate Caribbean charters at first mainly to St Lucia with the 720B and used the Azores for tech stops.

Monarch also used Gander as a tech stop, depending on winds.

With the right conditions they occasionaly came back direct, although it was not unknown to request a straight in on 08 as fuel was getting a bit tight!

[rog747]

I recall Dan-Air detached a B727 to Australia 1989/1990 to operate the ADL/PER/ADL ETOPS route, Aussies could operate the route with 2 engines using a highway as an alternate, alas the European authorities viewed things differently, trouble was that the B727 that Dan Air detached could carry passengers and fuel but not both at the same time so one B727 came home whilst a replacement B727 went down.


727 DA leases to Oz during pilot dispute at TN

G-BHNF leased 1/90 - 4/90 to Australian Airlines - This 727 was a HGW ADV model with -17A engines built for Sterling Airways in 1977

G-BPNS was ret 13/1/90 to Dan-Air London
G-BPNS chartered 1/11/89 Dan-Air London>Australian Airlines (This 727 was built for Ansett in 1974 and was an A model)
This 727 was spotted at ADL SYD MEL & BNE

So was PNS the Dan 727 that was unsuitable for ADL-PER-ADL?
Although at just over 1300nm that sector was well within range of a full 189 seat 727-200 - Do I assume alternates was to return to origin if nothing suitable en-route?
Why would you mention ETOPS for a 3 engines 727?

Or was it ETOPS for a twin?
Note that IEA Inter European Airways leased a pair of 737-300's to TN during the TN dispute, as did 737-300's from Britannia.

[OC37]

727 DA leases to Oz during pilot dispute at TN

G-BHNF leased 1/90 - 4/90 to Australian Airlines - This 727 was a HGW ADV model with -17A engines built for Sterling Airways in 1977

G-BPNS was ret 13/1/90 to Dan-Air London
G-BPNS chartered 1/11/89 Dan-Air London>Australian Airlines (This 727 was built for Ansett in 1974 and was an A model)
This 727 was spotted at ADL SYD MEL & BNE

So was PNS the Dan 727 that was unsuitable for ADL-PER-ADL?
Although at just over 1300nm that sector was well within range of a full 189 seat 727-200 - Do I assume alternates was to return to origin if nothing suitable en-route?
Why would you mention ETOPS for a 3 engines 727?

Or was it ETOPS for a twin?
Note that IEA Inter European Airways leased a pair of 737-300's to TN during the TN dispute, as did 737-300's from Britannia.

I wasn't a 'Reggie Spotter' but what I recall was that the first B727 had to be replaced due couldn't carry the weight on the route ADL/PER/ADL.

European twins couldn't operate the route due EROPS/ETOPS, it was 2 engines, not 3, that I mentioned ETOPS regarding, there was a Forrest Airport en-route that although it's runways weren't long enough for a loaded B737/B757 the Aussie CAA accepted that Aussie aircraft wouldn't use the runway, they'd use the highway, try explaining that to a European CAA!

Yes, IEA and Britannia had a couple of B737's each down there, Monarch had a couple of B757's, I recall TEA Belgium & TEA Switzerland down there, Paramount had a B737 chartered by the Queensland government, DA had the B727, I seem to recall an Eastern European airline down there, I think there were some 8 foreign airlines but only one of them had 3 engines for the PER route.

[DaveReidUK]

It was "BEA having their way" that caused de Havilland to reduce the size of the aeroplane they were designing for BEA so that we " . . . designed an internationally unwanted airliner with scaled-down engines that RR knew they could not sell elsewhere." The original DH121 was B727 size in most respects so history shows that our (and Boeing's) original sizing was right and BEA was wrong.

Are you saying that DH should have told BEA to b*gg*r off, and gone ahead with the original-sized, Medway-powered design ?

I guess we'll never know how many of those they might have sold ...

[bean]

OC37 I can not and will not believe that Dan air operations and route planning would have dispatched an aircraft thousands of miles to do a job for which it was unsuitable.
Your azsertion thay Aussie twin aircraft could always land o a road and did'nt need etops is patently and laughably absurd

[bean]

Bu the way, etops rules are determined by ICAO and notindividual authorities

[pax britanica]

B(E)A must have been very pessimistic about demand to downsize the roginal DH idea to the T 1 and 2 series because while the lieks of Swiss , SAS KLM served smaller markets and no doubt saw the DC9 as much better fit the bigger Euro legacy carriers used 727s mostly 200s extensively and i would have thought that BEA had many routes , probably more than LH and AF where a 727 200 would seem to have have been ideal , LHR to Paris FRA MAD ARN AMS BRU plus the shuttles .

On the subject of UK missing out on markets because of state airline meddling and politics I recently read a book* about the whole 707 family which includes soem comments from Boeing engineering execs who visited Uk in lead up to the Comet 4 707 and Dc8 . Their veiw was that they didnt need to rush on the 707 since although the Comet 4 and incipient VC10 were good products the manufacturing facilities in Uk were so small and outdated compared to what Douglas and Boeing had that the Brits couldnt meet any large scale demand anyway and were not that skilled at marketing compared to the customer focussed Americans . Looking back with the benefit of hindsight and the typical lack of investment in engineering and technology in UK left me wondering how valid those comments might be as opposed to 'just blame the nationalised industries and the politicians of the day .

*The book is Graham M Simons -Boeing 707 Group a history

[bean]

OC37. Further research indicates that there are plenty of airfields available within the 60 minute rule for an aircraft of say 737 speeds

[OC37]

OC37 I can not and will not believe that Dan air operations and route planning would have dispatched an aircraft thousands of miles to do a job for which it was unsuitable.
Your azsertion thay Aussie twin aircraft could always land o a road and did'nt need etops is patently and laughably absurd

I'm not so stupid managing a 2 aircraft operation as I was, I went thru it at the time with both Australian Airlines and the UK CAA when asked if we could operate to PER, regardless that I had all the charts and airfield plates to hand had there been a suitable airfield available then I just reckon that Australian Airlines might have known about it.

When we were dispatched to Australia, with all the confusion of the period, do you think that we knew in advance the routes that we would be asked to operate, we just about knew where Australia was, we'd never heard of airports like Mt Isa, Coolangatta, where the hell is Newcastle and, ah yeah, we know Launceston, that's in Cornwall isn't it!

What next, are you going to suggest that it is absurd that airliners land/take-off at uncontrolled airfields with no ATC or fire cover and the pilots activate the airfield lighting themselves from their radio box?

[bean]

In that case a apologise unreservedly

[DHfan]

Are you saying that DH should have told BEA to b*gg*r off, and gone ahead with the original-sized, Medway-powered design ?

I guess we'll never know how many of those they might have sold ...

With the benefit of hindsight, yes, undoubtedly.
The meddling and redesigning caused by the national airlines caused untold damage to the UK civil aircraft industry.
Look at the VC10 as another example. Specifically designed to BOAC specifications for "hot and high" requirements in Kenya, and possibly other African routes? Result - we don't want it, Boeings are cheaper to operate.

[pr00ne]

DHfan,

IF BEA had done as you suggested they would have been left with an aircraft and no launch customer. For all of the 'comparing the US designs to UK designs' it is often forgotten that the US launched all of their commercial airliners on a customer airline requirement with designs entirely customised around those airline requirements. So may be it WAS the fact that the UK state airlines were rubbish at traffic and market forecasting?

Don't forget too that long after the launch of the Trident, when BEA were looking at the Trident 3 and 1-11 500, they had to be effectively bribed by the Govt into taking UK built aircraft in the shape of compensation and subsidy payments to get BEA to order Trident and 111, when what they wanted, and tried to order, were Boeing 727 and 737's. That fact was widely publicised at the time and can not have helped BAC and HSA in their marketing efforts.

As to the VC10, again we can lay some of the blame at BOAC, the folks who specified the hot and high for Commonwealth routes nonsense, which Vickers went with, and none of them had any notion at all that these airports would all be extended to take 707 and DC-8's, thus rendering the VC10 obsolete before it had even entered service.

[DHfan]

I'm not really sure what your response is saying.
My view is, the villains are the airlines for stating their particular requirements, the UK aviation industry doing their best to comply with them, and then the airlines saying they didn't want the aeroplanes designed to their specifications.

I don't know about some of the blame at BOAC with the VC10 and BEA with the Trident, as far as I'm concerned it's entirely because of their idiotic decisions.

Accepting, obviously, that the UK international market is a minnow compared to even the US internal market, I quite understand that the UK manufacturers tried to chase the domestic market. The trouble was it appears the big cheeses at at the national airlines hadn't got a brain cell between them. I know they're an easy target but I suspect what I once heard described as the "dead hands of accountants..."

[OC37]

DHfan,

IF BEA had done as you suggested they would have been left with an aircraft and no launch customer. For all of the 'comparing the US designs to UK designs' it is often forgotten that the US launched all of their commercial airliners on a customer airline requirement with designs entirely customised around those airline requirements. So may be it WAS the fact that the UK state airlines were rubbish at traffic and market forecasting?

I appreciate that Boeing were making their B707's to customer specs., ie the 138 for Qantas, the 351 for Cathay and so on but the DC8 was being designed and built to take turbo-props and, not that I was aware of Douglas tailor designing to customer specs, had they been doing so then they could have at least built some with props, their change of plan was to compete with the B707 that Boeing were building at around the same time.

And if McD were designing and building to customer specs then just how many airlines did they discuss the MD80 series with!!!

But agreed that the British industry went down the pan due to lack of marketing and indeed a lack of interest once almalgamated in to the likes of HS, BA and BAe or whatever. What were the most recent British airliners, the 146 was De Havilland, the Jetstream was Handley Page then Scottish Aviation, the 748 was Avro, the 1-11 was BAC with the 2-11 & 3-11 projects scrapped due to lack of government interest, since the old independents became almagamated the industry has gone down the pan, BAe blamed 9/11 for scrappring the 146RJX development but rumour has it that it was scrapped because it wasn't working much alike the Nimrod MRA4 wasn't working either, besides stretching the 748 to make a 780, 146's and Jetstreams into larger variants whilst its perhaps best no to mention the ATP what have HS/BAe etc. done to continue any commercial airliner industry?

Long live the BN2 Islander!

[FlightlessParrot]

DHfan,

IF BEA had done as you suggested they would have been left with an aircraft and no launch customer. For all of the 'comparing the US designs to UK designs' it is often forgotten that the US launched all of their commercial airliners on a customer airline requirement with designs entirely customised around those airline requirements. So may be it WAS the fact that the UK state airlines were rubbish at traffic and market forecasting?


IIRC, the standard account is that the Convair 880 was rather closely tied to customer requirements; but as the customer was Howard Hughes, that didn't work out too well. It is evidently a very complicated business, especially if the manufacturer is offering something genuinely revolutionary.

[pax britanica]

I think in the end it comes down to size and scale . As has been poijnted out the US domestic market was enormous compared to the rest of the world and given the existence of requirements for short runway longish range-La Guarida
Hot Texas , High Denver and Long haul (for the day ) Transcons if you address the US market you address the world market.
Then there is the sheer scale of orders for US airlines compared to Uk and Europe so very very hard for anyone from Europe to compete , essentially Britain and France and add in the fragmented state of UK manufacturers it is another case of size matters.
Of course when we did the right thing in Europe and got Airbus Industry going (sadly the Brits drag their feet again) it demonstrated that the US are not omnipotent . I recall one book on Concorde I read said that the real benefit of Concorde was not the plane itself but the lessons the Brit and French learned working with each other to provide the foundation of Airbus-such a shame we are turning our backs on such ideas and reverting to little England again

[OC37]

I think in the end it comes down to size and scale . As has been poijnted out the US domestic market was enormous compared to the rest of the world and given the existence of requirements for short runway longish range-La Guarida
Hot Texas , High Denver and Long haul (for the day ) Transcons if you address the US market you address the world market.
Then there is the sheer scale of orders for US airlines compared to Uk and Europe so very very hard for anyone from Europe to compete , essentially Britain and France and add in the fragmented state of UK manufacturers it is another case of size matters.
Of course when we did the right thing in Europe and got Airbus Industry going (sadly the Brits drag their feet again) it demonstrated that the US are not omnipotent . I recall one book on Concorde I read said that the real benefit of Concorde was not the plane itself but the lessons the Brit and French learned working with each other to provide the foundation of Airbus-such a shame we are turning our backs on such ideas and reverting to little England again

Yet the world's recent turbo-prop leaders are ATR & DHC, France & Canada!

[Spooky 2]

I appreciate that Boeing were making their B707's to customer specs., ie the 138 for Qantas, the 351 for Cathay and so on but the DC8 was being designed and built to take turbo-props and, not that I was aware of Douglas tailor designing to customer specs, had they been doing so then they could have at least built some with props, their change of plan was to compete with the B707 that Boeing were building at around the same time.

And if McD were designing and building to customer specs then just how many airlines did they discuss the MD80 series with!!!

But agreed that the British industry went down the pan due to lack of marketing and indeed a lack of interest once almalgamated in to the likes of HS, BA and BAe or whatever. What were the most recent British airliners, the 146 was De Havilland, the Jetstream was Handley Page then Scottish Aviation, the 748 was Avro, the 1-11 was BAC with the 2-11 & 3-11 projects scrapped due to lack of government interest, since the old independents became almagamated the industry has gone down the pan, BAe blamed 9/11 for scrappring the 146RJX development but rumour has it that it was scrapped because it wasn't working much alike the Nimrod MRA4 wasn't working either, besides stretching the 748 to make a 780, 146's and Jetstreams into larger variants whilst its perhaps best no to mention the ATP what have HS/BAe etc. done to continue any commercial airliner industry?

Long live the BN2 Islander!


I believe the 707-351B was Northwest Boeing design which Cathay happened to purchase on the used market? Did Cathay ever prurchase new 707's directly from Boeing?

[rog747]

In the UK we simply did not have the jet engines - We had the Spey & the Conway - was that it at that time?
The Trident ran out of steam and eventually needed 4 engines and 1-11 500 (was a nice plane) but the Spey could do no more for it...
And the very pretty but thirsty and noisy VC-10 was quite doomed by then

Thus the 727 737 and DC-9 swept along in...
The Yanks had the PW JT3D JT8D and pretty soon the JT9D - as did GE had the CF6 by 1971

We were watching RR lurch from almost failing to financial crisis' trying to get the RB-211 fixed and going which once we did OK by 1972 it was on the Tristar - but touch and go at the time

[rog747]

I believe the 707-351B was Northwest Boeing design which Cathay happened to purchase on the used market? Did Cathay ever purchase new 707's directly from Boeing?

No, the Tristar was CX's first new factory orders. (2 only in 1975 - rest were all leased or second hand - they were going to take 2 of the PSA's but were NTU I think bought Court Lines pair instead)

NW's 707 351B's some with SCD and 351C's were very early builds.

[DHfan]

In the UK we simply did not have the jet engines - We had the Spey & the Conway - was that it at that time?
The Trident ran out of steam and eventually needed 4 engines and 1-11 500 (was a nice plane) but the Spey could do no more for it...
And the very pretty but thirsty and noisy VC-10 was quite doomed by then


That goes back to BEA again and their panic about a shrinking market - which appeared to last a week or two. Otherwise we'd have had the Medway and the full-size Trident - which BEA requested very early on. I'm not even sure the Trident was in service before they inquired about a larger one.

BTW, referring to an earlier comment regarding the BAC 1-11, I think that was originally a Hunting Aviation design.

[Allan Lupton]

BTW, referring to an earlier comment regarding the BAC 1-11, I think that was originally a Hunting Aviation design.
Yes it was and I remember Heinz Vogel telling us how they had had to do an all-nighter re-designing it to use the Spey engine - I think that was still as Hunting, but only just.

[Haraka]

Yes it was and I remember Heinz Vogel telling us how they had had to do an all-nighter re-designing it to use the Spey engine - I think that was still as Hunting, but only just.
IIRC it was originally the Hunting H.107.

[oldchina]

Heinz Vogel would also have known whether American Airlines was offered the JT8D on the 1-11, as was widely discussed at the time

[pax britanica]

The aviation industry -industrie nowadays I suppose was not alone in failing to adapt toa new world post WW2, not immediately after but in the 50s and 60s. I ean back in the dayw e had

Shipbuilding and a big Merchant Navy but obsolete and non expandable yards often on waters too small for modern ships and hemmed in by houses

Huge railway system and manufacture- but making coal fired locos when the world had gone electric or diesel. Govt again pushing for use of ineficient coal just because we had alot of it

Car industry large but very fragmented, how many companies before rationalization, then literally inventing the prototype modern FWD car with he mini 1100 /1300 dominates all designs today miss the opportunity to build on that success and see Japan Germany and France rule the automotice world (US being isilationsit in this respect). We still make some quality vehicles but all the companies are foreign owned.

Aviation , well we gave up on final assembly years ago but surely the Airbus (also now foreign owned) wing factoroes and relatd development are genuinely gutting edge and massively succesful . Rools royce too but they seem to be facing diffcult times.

So overall perhaps the aircraft industry ahas survived Uks industrial demise beter than other sectors as it leaned to globalise and cooperate rather thang on to amn Imperial past

[Allan Lupton]

IIRC it was originally the Hunting H.107.
Yes and 111 was the bigger Spey-engined result of the all-nighter, but still with a Hunting type number.
What might be worth remembering was the DH121 was originally the result of an ad hoc grouping based on de Havilland and called Airco which included Hunting and another I can't remember today. Anyway Hunting and its staff became part of BAC and effectively designed the first BAC aeroplane.

[spekesoftly]

......... Hunting and another I can't remember today.

Maybe Fairey?

[DaveReidUK]

Maybe Fairey?

Yes, it was Fairey.