"Dutch using digger to lift RAF WW2 plane despite anger"

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Anyone with recovery experience able to offer a view?

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-norfolk-53738129

[Lancelot37]

So is that the disrespect that the Dutch Government give to those who helped to free them in WWII.

[air pig]

On reading the article, no reason is given why this excavation is being undertaken.

[MG]

So really the article is about standard British jumping on the outrage bus because it’s a different method, nothing more.

[Herod]

The Dutch are pretty experienced in this sort of thing, so I think we should, at least for the moment, give them the benefit of the doubt

[rolling20]

I think the Dutch know what they are doing.
This appeared in the latest issue of The Stirling Times.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1520x2000/stirling_times_4017836ee8db4f6488bc4833bfe5a94dc19111cb.jpg

[Bergerie1]

Lancelot37,

Having lived in Belgium and now France, I deplore the anti-Euopean pronouncements of our xenephobic press before they investigate the truth. It happens all too often.

[Islandlad]

Lancelot37,

Having lived in Belgium and now France, I deplore the anti-Euopean pronouncements of our xenephobic press before they investigate the truth. It happens all too often.
Danny Keay has a hobby digging up the dead. He also sells books about his exploits. Self righteous?

"I understand the financial burden, but if they're not doing it right they shouldn't do it at all."

Maybe it should not be done at all Mr Keay.

[Hot 'n' High]

........ I deplore the [idiotic?] pronouncements of our [...] press before they investigate the truth. It happens all too often.

Bergerie1, you make a rash assumption that "truth" is of any relevance to the mejia! ;)

Having been involved in a very relaxed planed "go-around" one day, all discussed by the parties involved due to an evolving snag on an aircraft lined up to depart which later had to taxi back to stand, I was amazed to see the event reported on local TV by a reporter who, clearly, had nothing better to do so must have been lurking at the airport just in case something happened. The 3 pax from the g-a a/c who appeared on the interview all reported "near death" experiences and "only just missing the aircraft on the runway" despite the leisurely "go-around" taking place probably 3+ miles out! There was actually far more "danger" of hitting me as I happened to be transiting the overhead at the time - again, all factored in as part of the cunning plan!!! :} Of course, said Journo never noticed me and said psycho-pax had no idea as to my proximity!!!! :ok:

And talk about "leading questions"!!!!! One person was asked 3 times, in slightly different ways each time, if they felt that they were in mortal danger before they realised that's what the "reporter" wanted them to say! Truth and the media? It's all about "selling" lines of editorial propaganda, pure sensationalism and advertising. I'm sure there are some honest journalists and editors ...... but most are just after the story (as in work of fiction)!

[NutLoose]

If you want to jump on the angry brigade wagon, one thinks one should have looked earlier.

https://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05/22/exclusive-named-the-salvage-company-which-looted-jutland-war-graves-as-mod-fails-to-act/

[African_TrouserSnake]

" Lets comment on a process for which we aren't paying a cent " - The Brits

[Asturias56]

It's in pieces all over the ocean and has been there for over 75 years - with luck this will give closure to some failies (tho I doubt there are many or any people around who remebr the crew personally).

the Dutch have a great record of doing this sort of thing properly

[Banana Boy]

It's in pieces all over the ocean and has been there for over 75 years - with luck this will give closure to some failies (tho I doubt there are many or any people around who remebr the crew personally).

the Dutch have a great record of doing this sort of thing properly

I too support the Dutch operation to recover parts of this Downham Market Stirling.

Some years ago, whilst still serving, I had the privilege to attend a ceremony commemorating the crash of a 12(B) Sqn Lancaster in the Dutch town of Dronten. It was a very moving evening ceremony; I was particularly touched by the involvement of the Dutch youth in proceedings. Each of the 7 crew killed were named and marked by a teenager laying a bouquet beside a salvaged Lancaster propeller. I often wonder how many British teenagers would be so keen to remember a WW2 crash in a British town.

So, perhaps we should be more understanding of our Dutch friends and their kindness in remembering our fallen aviators...whatever technique they judge as the best way forward.

BB

[bobward]

Banana Boy,
The Dutch have looked after our fallen service personnel for many years. A good friend of my late father went back to the Arnhem area a few years ago, to join in the
Market Garden commemorations. Every village has it's own military graveyard. Each child in the village is responsible for tending the graves and keeping everything in order.
This has been their practice since the end of the war, and their way of thanking those who came to their aid when it really mattered.

[Stratofreighter]

...for those interested;

https://leemansspeciaalwerken.nl/projecten-en-nieuwsoverzicht/
/
https://leemansspeciaalwerken.nl/en/

is the firm involved in this particular recovery. Not quite Leeman's first project, and not the first time they use a GPS-controlled digger...

Local newssite:
https://www.1almere.nl/2020/08/01/nieuwe-datum-bekend-berging-short-stirling-bij-almere/

[Tashengurt]

I think the objection is that a coffer dam would allow items to be examined in situ and so allow any remains or personal effects to be better attributed to a position within the aircraft and therefore an individual?

[Jhieminga]

Yes, but as stated in the article in post #6, the remains of this Stirling cover an area that is too big to drain using a coffer dam.

[Asturias56]

TBH in most countries were there are war dead are remarkably respectful, even for the dead of the "wrong side" - and so they should be

[Jhieminga]

Recovery starts today. An area sized 75m by 75m will be systematically dug up using a GPS-controlled digger. Everything brought up will then be sifted to find any remaining parts or remains, using an 8mm sieve. Local council is busy organising a remembrance service as well as a memorial that will be installed next year. The work is being carried out by a specialised firm (see links above) together with a special department from the Dutch MoD.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/622x517/screenshot_2020_08_31_at_14_46_41_489de27813e1517bb476412f98 792db4fea0f6c8.png
https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/6074320/defensie-start-met-berging-oorlogsvliegtuig-uit-markermeer.html

[Stratofreighter]

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/09/human-remains-found-in-wreckage-of-wartime-bomber-in-markermeer/Human remains found in wreckage of wartime bomber in MarkermeerSeptember 21, 2020 https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/09/human-remains-found-in-wreckage-of-wartime-bomber-in-markermeer/
took its' content from Dutch public government-owned news outlets
https://nos.nl/artikel/2349286-stoffelijke-resten-gevonden-bij-neergestorte-bommenwerper-markermeer.html
and
https://www.omroepflevoland.nl/nieuws/194793/stoffelijke-resten-gevonden-bij-berging-vliegtuigwrak

De crew van de BK716 bestond uit Engelse en Canadese bemanningsleden:
Flying Officer - John Frederick Harris
Sergeant - Ronald Kennedy
Flying Officer - Harry Gregory Farrington
Sergeant - Charles Armstrong Bell
Flying Officer - John Michael Campbell
Sergeant - Leonard Richard James Shrubsall
Sergeant - John Francis James McCaw

[Arclite01]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/stirling_2_ca8b808afeb06a39c1258519003ba5b2_f776a26e8cef6a67 0cf523b9601f1ee51c21e557.jpg

Let's hope they are coming home. God bless.

Arc

[NutLoose]

Good, it will give some closure, i know the son of one of the crew intends to visit the recovery.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-54007213

[diginagain]

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/09/sunken-history-raising-the-wreck-of-a-wartime-bomber-piece-by-piece/

[bridgets boy]

Anyone with recovery experience able to offer a view?

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-england-norfolk-53738129

I was once on a BOI somewhere in Europe for an RAF aircraft - A local digger operator was recruited for us by the local Air Force liaison person (A Chief, so we were safe). The digger guy could peel away with his digger bucket vertical slices of earth no more than 5cm thick (would have been 2 inches in the UK) from the scar caused by the aircraft impact, all at the second-by-second direction of the AAIB rep. We may know military aviation - let digger operators do their job, and you are more likely to get the results you want.

[Slow Biker]

On the whole I have found ac recovery groups good to work with; they are always careful to keep within the terms of their MoD license, which made things easy all round. Except for one instance that is. We located, revealed and rendered safe a German 500kg bomb in a field a mile or so from a small village. Hanging around the site was a man who claimed to be an historian and to have a WW 2 museum with many recovered items. It turned out this 'museum' was his yard some miles away. After a late evening steaming out and destroying the explosive fill we secured the site and retired for a pint. Arriving back in the morning we found our historian had made entry to the site and had the bomb body secured to a trailer and was about to drive off. Just the nerve to enter our site was enough for me, so when he refused to unload the bomb as he had the land-owner's permission to remove it I was more than annoyed. I pointed out, a bit forcefully I'm afraid, that it is not within the land owner's gift to dispose of any item recovered as they are captured enemy property and belong the Crown. Eventually. after further refusals I was about to call the police (the local cop had been a regular visitor) when, reluctantly, he unloaded. The bomb finally ended up in the village hall.