Length of Full Commercial Pilot Training?

[A1KSA]

So how long would a full-on program that gets you from holding no licenses to obtaining a CPL and an ATPL along with the IR take? Pretty much from point 0 till ready to apply to an airline.
How long would that take? 1,2,3,4 years?

P.S. Im an average to above-average paced learner, and I know some minor things about planes already.

[VariablePitchP]

Prior knowledge, utterly irrelevant for ATPL training I’m afraid. I’ve got a degree in it and it was next to useless!

Start to finish it could be done in 18 months if you don’t have any issues and keep the pressure on. Realistically most people allow about two years to be in a jet. This ignores the COVID effects obviously :{

[PilotLZ]

Now is not the best time to race towards the finish line as it will take at least 2-3 years for the industry to recover from the COVID-19 standstill to the point where jobs for zero-experience pilots start coming up in significant numbers. But, that remark aside, I would say that full-time the whole thing is doable within 18-24 months. Of course, with this time frame I assume the lack of any major hiccups, like extended periods of bad weather, poor availability of aircraft/instructors/exam slots, lockdowns and all the other weird and wonderful things that life might throw your way.

[rudestuff]

Easily doable in a year. That will only get you to CPL/IR of course, which is enough to get you into an airline job. The only way to get an ATPL is to have 1400 hours and an airline job unfortunately... The hardest part is the ATPL exams which takes anywhere from 6 months to 18. I took 4 but I'm probably an exception...

[A1KSA]

Yea I meant get my fATPL, sorry. So I can do it in about 2 years, great to know! Thanks guys!

[A1KSA]

Thanks guys, but how hard were the ATPL Exams? Obviously they would be harder than High-School level, but they are very do-able, right?

[parkfell]

Go to University before your aviation studies; aviation won’t even start to recover before 2022/23.
Then decide whether Modular or Integrated route.
Choose a school (ATO) approved to conduct EASA training or the FAA route.
A national school might result in a National Licence which will not be recognised for a EASA licence without completely undertaking all their training requirements from scratch.

[A1KSA]

But I'm still in high school , I still have 2 years to finish before starting University, by then, airlines may start hiring again.
Wouldn't I be missing a lot of employment opportunities in the 4 years of Uni?

[rudestuff]

Where are you living? You're talking about high school and a 4 year degree, which hints that you might be in the US? EASA and FAA are very different systems.

[parkfell]

Unless you are very well connected, the chances of someone aged 19/20 being hired is not great as you will be up against older more mature junior birdmen.
You do get 19 year olds who are mature enough but this is quite rare. Often those who have been head boy or girl at school, although there is not certainty even if this occurs. They are often destined for far more prestigious professions.

Maturity is an important component and most young people are unlikely to develop sufficient of it until at least 21+. University should provide sufficient ‘rounding’, and improve anyone’s chances.

[VariablePitchP]

Easily doable in a year. That will only get you to CPL/IR of course, which is enough to get you into an airline job. The only way to get an ATPL is to have 1400 hours and an airline job unfortunately... The hardest part is the ATPL exams which takes anywhere from 6 months to 18. I took 4 but I'm probably an exception...

Depends where OP is from, in EASAland you’re not getting an airline job from nothing in a year. It’s a given that you’ll do ATPLs before getting your CPL which is a good 6 months in its own usually.

[Contact Approach]

You can have mine for free.

[Icelanta]

EASA:

Ground Theory is already around 1400 hours of Classroom in any professional Academy.
So count that at least 1.5 years of intensive classes without vacation.

Expect a minimum of 2 years to get your basic frozen ATPL in any good school that values knowledge above monkey questionbank teaching.

To get into a Transport Aircraft, count another 6 To 9 months minimum, from MCC to being line-checked.

[SID PLATE]

rudestuff

How about reading his/her location under his/her screen name ?

.. incidentally, how's your SA .. in general ?

[VariablePitchP]

Icelanta

6 months for ground school. Can’t think of a single school where it takes any longer than that if it’s full time. The requirements are for 650 hours of learning time, of which 10% must be contact (BGS have the details and they know what they’re talking about). Certainly not a year and a half of solid learning without a week off, that’d be a ridiculous waste of time effort and money. To OP, if you need 1400 hours just for groundschool then this probably isn’t the job for you I’m afraid.

[Capewell]

As others have said it's 18 months for exams, hour building and CPL, MEIR and MCC/jet conversion courses but the big question is:
Do you have a spare 120 grand? And by spare can you afford to lose that money? If you have rich parents then crack on you'll fit right in with all the very privileged few that go straight from school to CTC to a jet job.
If the answers no then you might want to sort out a plan B to protect yourself against the next downturn...

[rudestuff]

SID PLATE

Pretty good mate.

SA is about knowing as much as possible about a situation, and thing change. So when something doesn't add up you ask questions. Or you could be a smart-ass 😂

[Icelanta]

VariablePitchP

with respect, but any academy where you only have 10 % of classroom training is not worth your money nor time.
1400 hours of classroom training is a minimum to teach you the ATPL theory, and NO bloody CBT. That should be ONLY for reviewing.
I suggest you find a better training facility. Unfortunately, lots of newbees are completely unprepared to be a Flight Officer

[VariablePitchP]

BGS is one of the UK’s most highly regarded schools with a strong track record of training students and used by both UK and overseas students. There’s a reason all of the big 3 integrated school students pay for BGS software over and abuse their issues books. The 650 hours with 10% is fine for modular, you still have to pass the exam! I did integrated and it was the other way round, 90% classroom.

I’m afraid the school you went to were selling you snake oil, 1400 hours is a ludicrous amount of time to spend in the classroom doing what are at best GCSE level exams, you could get most of the way through a degree in that time. Are you actually a pilot and have you actually done the exams? If so you’ll know full well that 75% of the ATPL syllabus is utter guff with no relevance at all to flying a commercial airliner. It’s box ticking and to weed out those who can’t be bothered. Type rating is when it finally starts to get difficult and relevant.

Why so specific with 1400 hours, have you made that up because it’s 100 per module or have you seen it written down somewhere?

[Banana Joe]

Let's make it 2100 hours, shall we?

ATPL theory is not rocket science and is nowhere near the level of a degree. Only 30% of it is actually relevant.

I am not a FAA fan, but EASA could learn a thing or two from the FAA concerning written and oral examinations.

[Icelanta]

VariablePitch

my dear, I am a Training Captain on B747-400 and -8.
you?

Banana Joe,

on a degree, not even 10 percent of all you see is relevant, but as in a good atpl, it creates a General level of knowledge, and broader understanding.
I got over 1400 hours of classroom training 20 years ago, and at a very high and intensive level. And guess what? It was not nearly enough to even begin to understand the complexity
of being an Airline Pilot. That will only come with experience, but it DID create the ability to absorb and understand that experience. Something whoefully lacking in new cadets.

and yes, I studied at a National Airlines Flight Academy.

[parkfell]

Your beef is with the Regulator and what they expect of the trainees for licence issue.
As you say you learn on the job, as you did. It is merely the starting point for further learning.

You don’t expect a newly qualified doctor after 5/6 years of medical school to have the theoretical knowledge of a hospital consultant. Nor should you expect a new (f)ATPL pilot have the experience of a TRE?

Nurture them, not slag them off.

[Banana Joe]

Your current position is irrelevant.
You fail to understand that things change in 20 years and sometimes not for the best. The current state of the exams is just a joke and the new question style does not address the issue.

14 exams whose questions are often written by people that have never put their feet in the flight deck of an aircraft, clearly with barely a level 4 English knowledge and questions that are so totally irrelevant that the only technique to pass the exams is to literally bash the question banks. And I passed the exams in 3 months with an average of 90%+. After I spent 6 months full-time studying the material as much as I could.

I enjoyed studying most of the subjects, but when I fly I the knowledge of how a transistor works is irrelevant to me, I am not allowed to touch anything if that piece of kit goes kaput down route. Knowing how many members are present in the ICAO council is also irrelevant. The stage of preparing the actual EASA exams was the most miserable thing I had to do. Especially Human Factors and its questions about a mother's birthday or a captain's yacht.

How about introducing one single written exam and add on that an oral like they do on the other side of the pond?

[A1KSA]

I just joined PPrune last week so I cant reply more than 5 times a day. Anyway;

I understood from Icelanta and Variable Pitch that it would take me [b]6-18 months to get my fATPL and another 12 months for my PPL/CPL and IR, and finally another 6 months for MCC. Which amounts to around 2 and 1/2 years.
I also got that the ATPL Syllabus isn't hard at all and is completely useless, but its just a lot of information.

One last thing though, after getting all my licenses and my fATPL, I will obviously need to be type rated, won't that be done at the training facility of the airline I'm planning to work for?

Thanks a lot all! :ok:

[Mickey Kaye]

You don’t expect a newly qualified doctor after 5/6 years of medical school to have the theoretical knowledge of a hospital consultant. Nor should you expect a new (f)ATPL pilot have the experience of a TRE?

I think you will find the newly qualified doctor will have have far better theoretical knowledge than the hospital consultant.

I know someone who I am surpised hasn't piped up yet but he took 11 months for zero to the right seet of a regional turboprop.

[parkfell]

As the UK FY 1 doctor has yet to pass the Fellowship exams FRCP and/or FRCS, I would be surprised if that was the case. There are some really mean multiple choice questions which puts the EASA exams akin to Boy Scouts Qs.
Do they have penalty marking as well?
We might soon hear the answer as a number of the medical profession peruse these threads as their sons/daughters aspire to commit aviation.

[rudestuff]

I understood from Icelanta and Variable Pitch that it would take me 6-18 months to get my fATPL and another 12 months for my PPL/CPL and IR, and finally another 6 months for MCC. Which amounts to around 2 and 1/2 years
Basically, No.

I'm talking about EASA only, and I will simplify things a bit, but basically a CPL and IR with ATPL theory and MCC is a fATPL.

PPL = private
CPL= commercial (what you need to be an FO)
ATPL = Airline transport pilot licence (you can only get one of these if you've already been an FO, it's what you need to be an airline Captain)
If you're modular, you'll get the licences in that order, the IR can be added to either PPL or a CPL and is included in an ATPL

To give you an idea of times:

First you need a class one medical: 1 day

Then you need a PPL: this takes anywhere from 3 weeks to 12 months or longer. 4-6 weeks is quite achievable, but not in the UK!

Once you have a PPL you can start studying for the ATPL exams. You'll have noticed he next level of licence is the CPL, so for the theory you're actually skipping the CPL exams and IR exams and going straight to the ATPL exams (because all exams can be credited downwards so it saves on having to do a lot of exams)
Full time: 6 months. Part time: anywhere up to 24 months. Ignore the 1400 hour comment, the guys obviously a troll! 😂 Bottom line is it'll take as long as it takes...

Any time after your PPL you can go flying to build hours, some people fly during their ATPLs, others wait it's up to you, you just need to end up with certain requirements (100 hours pic, night rating etc) full time somewhere sunny like Florida: 4-6 weeks

Oncec you meet the experience requirements you can start your CPL/IR training. This has to be done within 36 months of your ATPLs (or you'll have to do them again)
A lot of places offer a combined CPL/IR but you can do the modules separately, and if you do I would always recommend doing the IR first (it saves a fortune)
Typical times: 8 weeks

There are a few other things like UPRT that you'll need along the way, but generally the last thing would be an MCC or APS course 2-4 weeks

Now these are all seperate modules so you can't expect them to dovetail perfectly, but you can see that 12 months is entirely achievable without overlapping, and 18-24 months at a very leisurely pace. If you could fly once every other day during your ATPLs you'd knock that down considerably, as would being super prepared and getting lucky with the weather etc..

[A1KSA]

Thanks Rudestuff,

I'm pretty sure I grasp the training now, my guess is that it will probably take me 12-14 months. Guess we will have to wait and see!

:)

[VariablePitchP]

​OP, what rudestuff has said. As he says ignore the 1400 hour stuff, as useful as the 70 year olds who hang around flying clubs shouting at PPL students for using the Garmin and not a sextant. All it’s done is totally confuse a fairly easy answer.

Street to airline = 18-24 months, all in, competed, job done :ok:

[Icelanta]

And unprepared and unsuitable to be flying as second in command on any transport aircraft.

[rudestuff]

Weren't we all? 😉

[VariablePitchP]

So every single pilot flying commercially is unsuitable? Can’t think of many that did the 5 year masters degree in useless ATPL ground school knowledge that you seem to think we al do.

I genuinely can’t get my head around what you want me to do with these extra 700 hours?! I could learn to play the piano? Would that help?

I and all my course mates got nicely into the 90+% average on our ATPLs, on the syllabus set by the regulator.

As far as EASA is concerned we blitzed the exams no issue and this have fully understood the learning objectives. But you think that unless I sit and stare at a whiteboard for another 6 months full time I can’t be a competent pilot. Why only 6 months, why not 30 years? In fact why stop at 1,400 hours, surly it should be at least 20,000 hours of classroom study to be allowed to even do a PPL.

Its a shame you fly longhaul, can’t imagine having to sit and listen to your nonsense for 8+ hours :uhoh:

[Icelanta]

If you are happy to just know the minimum required by the regulator, then fine. But some are eager to have superiour knowledge compared to the bare minimum required and prefer not to just learn the questionbank ( they should eliminate that) by heart.

staring at a whiteboard? No, but we had orals, internal exams ( fail and you are a gonner by the way) ,essays, had to explain topics to the whole promotion,... the current requirements are a sad joke.

[African_TrouserSnake]

Icelanta

Times have changed oldtimer ;)

At my old university (top 50 worldwide polytech, for context not to brag!) an average subject , e.g. Calculus, amounts to 5 ECTS = 140 hours study hours. Of those you'll get 7x3=21 hours of classroom instruction, which essentially is a condensed summary of the matter you should've already learned by yourself before coming to class. In other words 15% of the required study hours consists out of classroom instruction.

Distance learning / CBT follows or less the same principle and is maybe even better, since the university doesn't offer you detailed video lessons. Only books and 15% classroom instruction.
In summary, in the modern world it has become common for high complexity positions to be fulfilled by employees who are theoretically trained by a system comparable to distance learning.

However, ATPLs don't really compare to university. There is no requirement of deep understanding of the theories and principles governing the subjects, it is all about acknowledging simplified concepts and facts. There is no abductive/inductive/deductive reasoning required, no dissection or reproduction of any theory, no discussion nor research, none. It is just learning chewed and simplified stuff. ATPLs only require a fraction of the cognitive capabilities required for a uni degree (can only speak for engineering). If I had to compare ATPLs to anything out of the conventional school system, it would probably be trade school.

So please, why shouldn't cadet be able to follow distance learning?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying ATPLs are easy, I get that the amount of information in short period of time can be hard. However, I am fairly confident that there is no discussion on the content: If you compare the content of an ATPL course with a university course you'd have a good laugh.

[parkfell]

As the late Sandy Thomson, an absolutely superb teacher
(Pre JAR jurisdiction last century) said “high class rubbish”.

My view is that it is ‘high volume, low grade’ material to absorb.
Provided you have adequate grey matter, you put in the time and effort,
it is mainly learn and churn.

The NAV paper does require a measure of understanding (fewest facts to learn) as does certain aspects of the MET. Keep asking the Question WHY.

[African_TrouserSnake]

I fully agree

[SID PLATE]

VariablePitchP

As a line pilot you will regularly be required to compose and file (usually electronically, reports and data. As a training pilot, the frequency is increased.

Instead of staring at a whiteboard for six months, perhaps use the time to brush up on your grammar and spelling ?

[African_TrouserSnake]

"Heh I can't debate him so I better correct him for his grammar, that'll teach him!"

How embarrassing, especially if you're a native speaker correcting a non-native speaker. You must be treat to fly with :rolleyes:

[Banana Joe]

Can you elaborate? In 2 years I've been on the line I have never had to compose or file any report, unless you mean VORs and MORs but those don't happen often luckily.

[spitfirejock]

Yet another sad example of people hurling insults at each other and degrading the value of a thread - maybe its just entertainment for some of those participating?

Common sense suggests that the time it takes for someone to get qualified varies immensely from person to person. Several factors pay a role; aptitude, motor skills, situational awareness, focus, determination, effort, are just some. As pilots we all know colleagues and friends who managed to skip through those ATPL exams in 6 months and we also know others who took 5 times longer and everything in between. Passing the exams is a tick in the box for many, the knowledge they retain in often very small. Others love to delve deep into the subject, they want to really understand and pride themselves in remembering a large percentage after the exams have passed. Its somewhat a personal choice I believe.

The old timers (me being one of them) will opine "we had to know more because we actually had to write out the answers" and you will hear lots of comments bounded around such as "the modern students don't seem to know anything even after they just passed the exams"....and so on.

I see it both ways. Of course, as Icelanta says, you could easily spend thousands of study hours to get anywhere near knowing the 14 subjects in depth and being able to remember most of it, even if that was possible for the average human being to do so! On the other hand, jumping though the regulators hoop and passing with minimum study of the subject (learning the answers only) is now an industry accepted norm, just as it has been for years in the FAA system. The acid test comes later, what do the airlines accept? Rumor had it (last year) airlines were getting concerned about the level of knowledge exhibited by newly qualified cadets, I am not sure how airlines will look at this in the recovery phase after COVID. It might be a good idea to study more in depth and have exceptional theoretical knowledge to have an advantage at the interview when airlines start hiring again - I don't know the answer.

Bottom line, everyone is right, you could get qualified (fATPL from zero) in 10 months or you could take several years, its all about you, the abilities you were born with and the effort you can put in to make up for any weaknesses you might have, oh, and don't forget the quality of training, this can be a significant factor.

[RedDragonFlyer]

Quite a bit of bickering in this thread. I think what's ideal and what was done 30 years ago isn't really relevant to this thread.

The problem is though, the question is not too different to how long is a piece of string. It varies dramatically based on the amount of hours per week you study/ can study, the school where you train at, the weather, your aptitude, plane/ instructor availability, the time between finishing one part and starting the next amongst a whole raft of other things.

The order modular students take courses are PPL, ATPL exams with night rating and hour building either during or just after, CPL-IR and finally MCC/ APS. Based on my personal experience and that of people I know, average times to do each part are:
1) PPL - 1.5 months to 6 months.
2) Night Rating - A few days and could be done during ATPL exams.
2) ATPL Exams - 6 months to 12 months.
3) Hour Building - You could do it along with the ATPL exams or you could go to Florida for 1 month. It's really up to you and there are pros and cons of both.
4) CPL/ IR/ MEP - 2.5 months to 5 months.
5) MCC/ APS - Less than a month.
There's also UPRT that needs to be done now. I haven't done it, but I think it's just a few days at most.

What you can see is it could be done in a year if you were very able and lucky; and I am sure there's someone on this forum who managed to do it in 11 months. That would be rather unusual though. Most people take 18-24 months. I wouldn't exactly call 18-24 months 'leisurely' as another posted did. There will be times are great intensity and stress in that time with less intense periods too.
Some might say it's impossible for someone to take 6 months to do a PPL if they are flying full-time unless they were useless, but I have seen it done. If you are studying in NW Europe in the winter, there could be week after week after week of bad weather. No sensible instructor would let a PPL student solo in marginal weather either - it needs to be good. I personally waited over four weeks between booking the skills test and actually doing it because the examiner was away on holiday for a week and two flights were cancelled due to poor weather. Stuff happens!
The other thing I'd say is that it isn't a race. It's much better to take 24 months and do it well than to rush and do it in 12 months. If you aren't ready to sit an ATPL exam, don't do it. For many airlines, your average score or number of first time passes is extremely important so a fail or scraping a pass isn't really ideal. Better to give yourself an extra month to ensure you are exam ready. If your ideal school has a waiting list of a few months and a school with a poor reputation which you visited and didn't like has a start date of tomorrow morning, it's probably better to wait for the other school.

Edit: I started typing this before spitfirejock posted and I didn't see it until after I had posted. What he says makes sense.

[parkfell]

What I found is that depending if it were full blown written exams or multi guess style determines the way in which you learn.

My UK ATCO exams in the 1980s were written, including a 2 hour radar theory paper. Started off with learn and churn stuff about PRI / PRF.
Then questions involved into a thinking style.

What are the considerations necessary when installing an Area Search Radar (250nm range in the South Atlantic). Topical at the time.

The papers were marked before the Oral Board, which would then probe any less than satisfactory written answers, in addition to any other Area Radar topics which took their fancy.

With multi guess ATPLs, I found you put nuggets of information into pigeon holes.
The Oral Board is the airline interview.

An education psychologist is best placed to explain how the brain learns and retains information.

[VariablePitchP]

If you are happy to just know the minimum required by the regulator, then fine. But some are eager to have superiour knowledge compared to the bare minimum required and prefer not to just learn the questionbank ( they should eliminate that) by heart.

staring at a whiteboard? No, but we had orals, internal exams ( fail and you are a gonner by the way) ,essays, had to explain topics to the whole promotion,... the current requirements are a sad joke.

I agree that most people do want extra knowledge, I would hope that people willing to go through so much training would naturally want to learn as much as they can. Most people once they’re flying will spend hours prepping before sims, reading around the aircraft etc. But that is actually relevant.

But when it comes to ATPL theory, it just doesn’t help you when you’re in an airline, being unbelievable at drawing lines on polar stereographic maps isn’t going to help you on a four sector day.

And most face to face groundschool is done by schools on a full time basis, usually over six months. What your proposing would look like this:

’Hi training school, I’d look to do your groundschool course please, how long will it take’

’Well, provided you put the work in and don’t have too many issues, should take about six months’

’Oh, I’m actually after something of at least a year’

’Even if you pass all the exams to a high standard as required by the regulator, get good marks and have a good understanding of the material?’

’No I still absolutely want to train for twelve months’

’So you want to watch all your course mates go on to flying and start working six months earlier than you? Yet you’d rather shell out another few thousand to re-cover material you’ve already got strong pass marks in and have absolutely no further practical use for and delay your career by six months?’

’Yes.’

The school will look at you like you’ve got 2 heads. They’ll take your money (why wouldn’t they) but you’ll be on your own and be the first and last person to do something so bizarre.

[rudestuff]

... but importantly they'll be able to write on their CV that they've done 1400 hours of theory, and must therefore be a much better pilot 👍

[SID PLATE]

"Heh I can't debate him so I better correct him for his grammar, that'll teach him!"

How embarrassing, especially if you're a native speaker correcting a non-native speaker. You must be treat to fly with :rolleyes:

There's not much point in debating if the opposition is unwilling to change his or her mind.
English is not my first language. It is, however the most common official language of aviation. Don't let the French tell you otherwise.

[VariablePitchP]

Having read all the comments I’ve seen the error of my ways and changed my mind, I’m going to hand back my licence until such time as I have completed 400,000 hours of mass and balance calculations for a 50 year old aircraft using a slide rule and a piece of pink string. Can’t believe how reckless I’ve been so far in only achieving the required licence standard from the regulator and not first translating and writing out all of the learning objectives into 58 different languages to achieve full comprehension.

Just for my benefit, is it worth me also learning to play the piano up to concert pianist level just in case I have to divert to a regional airport and the only way I can raise the money to afford spares due to lack of local currency is to work as an accompanying musician at a local jazz bar? Is it acceptable to learn using an electric keyboard at least for the first few years or would that make me an even worse pilot?