BA Aircraft Change

[El Grifo]

Booked 2 seats on BA, LHR-LAX late last year.
My wife suffere from MS but was determined to make the journey for the wedding of the daughter of a friend !
She needs to move around during the flight as I do ! (Old Codgers pushing 70)
We specifically booked the 2 seats, window and aisle upstairs on the A380. We booked and paid early to avoid any hiccups !
A frw weeks ago the advised us of change of seating. Window and centre on a 787-9.
This of course was utterly hopeless ! We asked several times for a solution. None was forthcoming !
The option arose of flying an Aer Lingus 360 with the required seating config.
BA however refused a refund, only a voucher !
As this was a one off trip, a voucher was of zero value !
What we bought and paid for, is no longer available.
Can anyone advise me of my rights and how to proceeed.
I have spent countless hours on the phone listening to their elevator music and promotions , even when I get to speak to someone, I am met with a brick wall.
No refund means no rebooking with Aer Lingus !
Always thought I was protected by the various bodies against this kind of thing !!

El Grifo

[Musket90]

Not sure you'd be entitled to a refund as the flight, whilst an aircraft type change, has not been cancelled, Happened to me a few months ago when I'd booked the flight months in advance then government advice was implemented against travel to my destination unless essential. BA hadn't cancelled the flight so they offered a voucher and not refund equivalent to the flight cost. Whilst Aer Lingus are also part of the IAG group it may be that their flight booking system is completely separate from BA's hence not being able to use the BA voucher.for Aer Lingus.

[DaveReidUK]

Can you actually enter the USA from the UK at the moment?

The FO and US Embassy web pages would suggest not.

[WHBM]

I think we all have to accept that, in the current national emergency, getting your preferred seats on a flight which is still being provided is pretty well down the list of priorities.

[kildress]

I loved the Aer Lingus 360, one of Belfast's finest!

[DaveReidUK]

I loved the Aer Lingus 360, one of Belfast's finest!

And it wouldn't have given rise to the OP's complaint - two-thirds of the seats were window seats, and two-thirds were aisle seats. :O

[OC37]

Booked 2 seats on BA, LHR-LAX late last year.
My wife suffere from MS but was determined to make the journey for the wedding of the daughter of a friend !
She needs to move around during the flight as I do ! (Old Codgers pushing 70)
We specifically booked the 2 seats, window and aisle upstairs on the A380. We booked and paid early to avoid any hiccups !
A frw weeks ago the advised us of change of seating. Window and centre on a 787-9.
This of course was utterly hopeless ! We asked several times for a solution. None was forthcoming !
The option arose of flying an Aer Lingus 360 with the required seating config.
BA however refused a refund, only a voucher !
As this was a one off trip, a voucher was of zero value !
What we bought and paid for, is no longer available.
Can anyone advise me of my rights and how to proceeed.
I have spent countless hours on the phone listening to their elevator music and promotions , even when I get to speak to someone, I am met with a brick wall.
No refund means no rebooking with Aer Lingus !
Always thought I was protected by the various bodies against this kind of thing !!

El Grifo

Alas you wouldn't be entitled to a refund for a change of A/C type or seats, your purchase was for travel LHR/LAX/LHR and that is what BA are providing you with, even under normal circumstances a shange of A/C type can occur at any time even at the last minute when a planned aircraft may go technical or whatever, unfortunate given your best planning but alas sh!t happens sometimes.

[El Grifo]

The two major issues are, that due to her Multiple Sclerosis, my wife is now unable to fly. It is a medical issue !
The last 2 Long Hauls have only been possible in the aforementioned seating config.
The other issue is that we would be turned back at US immigration. We are currently not allowed entry.
I assume It would be the responsibility to return us to the UK immediately !
I have offered BA proof of my wife's condition, but it is falling on deaf ears !
El Grifo

[wiggy]

Can you actually enter the USA from the UK at the moment?

The FO and US Embassy web pages would suggest not.

Yes, but in the case of non US nationals the list of who is allowed is pretty small.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

So I although I sympathize with the situation you are up against with BA, just really a few points that BA might have and hence why you are having issues...

Your contract with BA is to fly you from LHR-LAX and simply that is it
They can change the aircraft at any time (check your T&Cs)
They can change your seat at any time (check your T&Cs)
The airline is not at fault if you book yourself on a flight to a country you are inadmissible for (you will be denied travel)
The airline is not at fault for extra requirements by every passenger

To put it simply, it is not the airlines fault you are unable to travel, on a flight that will still go. I'm sorry that's a bit blunt, but that is genuinely the way that an airline will see it, and that is what you are up against. The direction you should really be going with that in mind is your travel insurance, as that is really what it is for. Any past experience etc. will be down to an airlines goodwill, rather than legal requirement.

Hope that helps

[El Grifo]

Thanks Gulf Julliet Papa !
A couple of things !
The destination was available at time of booking, so I did not book a flight to a destination that was unavailable !
It became unavailable many months later.
If I were to turn up for the flight, how would BA handle things in respect of being unable to board us due to entry restrictions in the US ? Any clue ?
Whilst I accept your points, I guess that I was expecting a bit of compassion and goodwill from BA.
Sadly, it appears to be in short suppy against the background of 100% refunds from all if the other elements of the planned trip, Iberia, Hyatt and Hilton !
Thanks
El G

[Compton3fox]

Thanks Gulf Julliet Papa !
A couple of things !
The destination was available at time of booking, so I did not book a flight to a destination that was unavailable !
It became unavailable many months later.
If I were to turn up for the flight, how would BA handle things in respect of being unable to board us due to entry restrictions in the US ? Any clue ?
Whilst I accept your points, I guess that I was expecting a bit of compassion and goodwill from BA.
Sadly, it appears to be in short suppy against the background of 100% refunds from all if the other elements of the planned trip, Iberia, Hyatt and Hilton !
Thanks
El G
If you paid with a UK Credit Card, you may be able to get a refund via the CC company. I would stick to the line "Travel to the US was OK when I booked but now the FCO/US Government state it's not" or words of that nature.

[El Grifo]

Cheers for that Compton 3 !
Spanish Debit Card unfortunately !
I asked BA what would happen If I turned up for the flight when both sides knew that they would be unable to take us to the US.
Despite couching the question in several different ways, all I could get was " well the flight is still going"
Would it illegal for BA to board us knowing that we would be denied entry to the US ?
El G.

[Ray_Y]

Your case is complicated, and so it's difficult for us from different countries in different legal areas to help you. You combined different flights on your own? You booked in Spain? Via BA website or a travel agent or any other booking site? What law applies then? EU law might help you.

And if your wife has special needs, you should take care of ways to ensure those needs before booking. I'm sure european airlines usually support many ways of transporting passengers with restrictions.

[DaveReidUK]

Would it illegal for BA to board us knowing that we would be denied entry to the US ?

BA will be aware that (currently) if they carry you to the USA, they will be obliged to fly you straight back to the UK when you're not allowed in.

If their reservations people are pretending otherwise, they are either stupid or disingenuous. Should you show up at LHR with your ticket, you will be denied boarding - but it shouldn't be necessary to go to those lengths in order to secure a refund.

You are unlikely to be alone in this situation - there must be thousands of passengers currently holding UK-US tickets who are unable to fly.

[El Grifo]

Fair Comment DaveReid !
Thousands indeed ! Probably why they are making it so difficult.
Encouraging me to continue on my longish journey from the Canaries to LHR under false pretences is downright fraudulent in my view !!

Regarding the latter part if your comment Ray_Y, either you did not read my original post, or failed to comprehend !
The steps I took to cover the "special needs" of my wife consisted of finding an airline that flew the route and had seating configuration suitable for her needs and booked 8 months in advance !!
I have done this for the last two long haul flights !!

El G.

[OC37]

Cheers for that Compton 3 !
Spanish Debit Card unfortunately !
I asked BA what would happen If I turned up for the flight when both sides knew that they would be unable to take us to the US.
Despite couching the question in several different ways, all I could get was " well the flight is still going"
Would it illegal for BA to board us knowing that we would be denied entry to the US ?
El G.

During normal times if an airline transports a passenger to a country without the right of entry to that country, no visa or similar, then the passenger gets returned to sender and the airline gets a hefty fine, that is why the staff can be so stringesnt at check-in, but quite how things are being played at the moment I am out of touch with.

But even some loco's, normally totally non-refundable etc., during these times are allowing cancellations and refunds, surely somewhere on the BA website should be posted revised procedures for this ever changing set of circumstances that we currently find ourselves in, as an example I know with Expedia Group that if one booked non-refundable accommodation before 20 March then they can cancel in return for a voucher valid at the same accommodation for 12 months, if you haven't done so already go searching on the BA website for any flexibility to their normal terms and conditions.

One would have thought 'goodwill' but these airlines need every penny they can get their hands on during these times, I'm still waiting for 4 refunds dating back to flights that became cancelled during March and April.

Good luck though.

[Ray_Y]

Fair Comment DaveReid !

The steps I took to cover the "special needs" of my wife consisted of finding an airline that flew the route and had seating configuration suitable for her needs ...


And I'm afraid that's not what guarantees you anything special. I bet it's different when you tell the airline/request special needs during booking about it. Will they charge you a higher fee for that? Who can answer this?

I looked up. I couldn't find any advice for people who booked long time ago, flight uncancelled, but immigration impossible at destination due to COVID-19. For me it looks like it's the passenger's risk (not passengers fault). Airlines voluntary policy to offer voucher or free rebook. They don't have to offer even that?

Maybe it's seen similar like you turn sick before flight. It's not your fault, but it's your risk.

One travel agent told me once "We don't earn a lot on straightforward travel. We earn money with plan changes"

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Thanks Gulf Julliet Papa !
A couple of things !
The destination was available at time of booking, so I did not book a flight to a destination that was unavailable !
It became unavailable many months later.

Try think of this the other way round. The destination still exists, as does the flight, and like every flight (in good and bad times), passengers that are eligible for entry at the destination can still get on it. It's your eligibility for entry that has changed (I know outside of your control but still), not the airline or the flight.

If I were to turn up for the flight, how would BA handle things in respect of being unable to board us due to entry restrictions in the US ? Any clue ?

Again, as in normal times, the procedure remains the same for passengers that are not eligible for entry at the destination. If you were allowed to board you would get as far as passport control, at which point you will be denied entry, and placed in a waiting room until the next flight back to your origin, you will likely miss the return sector, so 24hours in a waiting room. The airline will have to fly you back, and be liable for a (I believe) 5 figure fine. To mitigate this they will stop you at check-in unless there is a chance that you will eligible by boarding time, but either way, you will not get anywhere near an aircraft.

Whilst I accept your points, I guess that I was expecting a bit of compassion and goodwill from BA.
Sadly, it appears to be in short suppy against the background of 100% refunds from all if the other elements of the planned trip, Iberia, Hyatt and Hilton !
Thanks

I am not saying you do not deserve compassion or goodwill, but can you imagine the number of sob stories that customer services have heard over the last few months. Sadly all goodwill may of been used up by those that don't really deserve it.

[Compton3fox]

Cheers for that Compton 3 !
Spanish Debit Card unfortunately !
I asked BA what would happen If I turned up for the flight when both sides knew that they would be unable to take us to the US.
Despite couching the question in several different ways, all I could get was " well the flight is still going"
Would it illegal for BA to board us knowing that we would be denied entry to the US ?
El G.
Based on past experience, if an airline boards a PAX that doesn't have the necessary paperwork, visa, passport with sufficient validity etc, they will not only have to repatriate you at their cost but will also be fined. Hence they are very careful not to board PAX that don't meet the entry criteria. I would approach BBC Watchdog and CC the BA and IAG CEO's as well as getting on their social media channels. I will take 10 minutes, so not much to be lost and everything to be gained...

[Rwy in Sight]

Just a quick question why you will have issues with entering in the US?

[El Grifo]

Answer to that is, my daughter, resident in LA, the place we were supposed to be heading, checked with the Travel Dept of her "fruity" employers AND with the relevant Immigration Authorities at LAX and was met with a resounding " No Chance" !
Covid you see :-)
El G.

[The Blu Riband]

when is your flight?

[Asturias56]

I think we all have to realise is that any booking made in advance to go anywhere by any means of transport is subject to immediate change. It's very tough sometimes but these are not normal times by any measure. We just have to live through it.

We have a number of trips (personal & business) in planning and some have come off - but we only make bookings at the very last minute to minimise the risks of cancellation. For example getting from N Italy to the KK - train? Aeroplane?? Car??? Its a matter of fine judgement and you have to be prepared just not to go and even lose out on some cash I'm afraid.

[El Grifo]

28th Aug Blu Riband.
The flight hss not been runing for weeks in end and only recommenced this month !
El Grifo

[WHBM]

To put it simply, it is not the airlines fault you are unable to travel, on a flight that will still go.
Is that really the case though ? When the OP booked, presumably before things kicked off, LHR-LAX would have been a twice daily A380. Now as I understand it they are just running one 787, I don't know even if it is daily any more. Setting aside the aircraft substitution, it's presumably at a different time and possibly a different flight number. They have resized their offering because only Americans, and a limited number of those, are currently allowed in. Fair enough. But you can't really say both of "we have completely reorganised and reduced the timetable" and "the flight is still going". You can't have it both ways.

[aeromech3]

I have an annual travel insurance for which I pay extra for being over 65, also I take medication for arrhythmia and 2 stents, I could pay another £200 and have this condition covered; my flight booked last Nov for this May was cancelled, I got a voucher, I intend to travel when the restrictions in the vacation country are lifted, and my insurance tell me Covid-19 reasons are still covered for that flight, as long as the F.O. list the destination country as exempt when I book again.
El Grifo, were you going to travel without insurance to the USA, as known as most expensive for medical treatment, as well as not use the protection offered by credit cards?
And you wish to be believed that you planned this journey!
Having said that I also had no joy from B.A. for expenses when there flight was Tech and according to them all hotels were full ( Eid) and I had to resort to private overnight accommodation for which I could not produce a bill.

[Beamr]

Sir, if you have a travel insurance, check the T's n C's.
Above you mention that your wife can't fly anymore due to medical reasons (but was "airworthy" at the time of booking), and in many cases that is sufficient for insurance claim (requires a medical).
I've been to a similar situation (a decade ago).

other than that according to your description of situation I really can't see any other option.

[ASRAAMTOO]

The two major issues are, that due to her Multiple Sclerosis, my wife is now unable to fly. It is a medical issue !
The last 2 Long Hauls have only been possible in the aforementioned seating config.
The other issue is that we would be turned back at US immigration. We are currently not allowed entry.
I assume It would be the responsibility to return us to the UK immediately !
I have offered BA proof of my wife's condition, but it is falling on deaf ears !
El Grifo
I would assume that BA, like any other airline would expect you to have travel insurance that covers you in the event of a medical condition affecting your ability to travel. Such insurance (if taken out pre covid) would also cover you if a change in FCO recomendations or entry requirements occurred.
It is likely of course that your wife's pre existing condition and your age would make it expensive to procure a decent travel insurance policy, particularly when visiting the USA. In such circumstances the only option may be to effectively "roll the dice" and travel without insurance. Personally I would take that risk within Europe as the flights are inexpensive and medical treatment (for now at least) is generally available at an affordable cost. The USA is a different matter.

[ivor toolbox]

Just a quick question why you will have issues with entering in the US?

There is currently a standing presidential order preventing travel to USA by non visa holders ( ie those that use ESTA visa waiver scheme) and certain classes of visa holder for an indefinite period.

You can read it all at

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/

where it come up in a big red box


Ttfn

[ivor toolbox]

28th Aug Blu Riband.
The flight hss not been runing for weeks in end and only recommenced this month !
El Grifo

You might find this information of some help,
or not, depending on your circumstance

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/02/coronavirus-travel-help-and-your-rights/

Ttfn

[El Grifo]

Just to put some minds at rest I of course have a pretty expensive yearly travel insurance cover !
They are not interested as they say the flight is still running !
Taking the same line as BA !
Hiding their heads in the sand, hoping I will go away !
Still cannot understand why BA are telling me that the flight is running whilst being in the full knowledge that I am prohibited from using it !!
Same flight, same timings just different aircraft type !
Rock and a hard place folks !!
El Grifo

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Still cannot understand why BA are telling me that the flight is running whilst being in the full knowledge that I am prohibited from using it !!

Sorry El Grifo, but the flight IS running. It is YOU that is prohibited to use it. Until you understand that it is running (BA are correct in telling you that it is...I can't see how you can argue that?) then, unfortunately, it is you that is burying their head in the sand. Without that understanding, you are just going to go round in circles.

[El Grifo]

Question is, why do they not say that instead of pretending everything is perfectly fine !
I have explained my travel route and the effort required to reach LHR !
All they come back with it "the flight is still flying"
No advice to abandon my plans. No hint that I would be denied boarding.
Can you imagine the rucus If I went along with their ruse and was denied boarding.
I have kept copies if all coms along with dates and names of those I have talked to by phone !
Not a single whisper about being being denied boarding.
That Stinks !!
El Grifo

[Ray_Y]

Still cannot understand why BA are telling me that the flight is running whilst being in the full knowledge that I am prohibited from using it !!


I know, this is very hard to understand, and illogic. The world as whole is illogic in many places.

As far as I know this is special to US bound flights, affecting only these. US authorities delegate precheck of passengers to airlines (and ship operators, I bet). Airline shall collect data and presend it to USA. Airline shall check again before boarding if each single passenger fulfils some basic prerequisites (as visa, or ESTA and so on). If any of that fails and travellers show up to immigration, airline can face high penalties and even as last step denial to operate into USA (or being part of visa waiver program, dunno). So any such airline, if they have to choose between you and continue business into USA, it's clear what's more important.

While this is clear, it's still like the risk is with you. No airline I know of will refund you on a non-flex ticket just because USA force them to refuse you to board. Is this fair? Propably not. Is it common? Yes. Are you the only one affected? Certainly not. Happened to me once we had unexpected technical issue with ESTA. Many years ago. No refund, just rebook with higher fee once we were ready again. The world is unfair and illogic sometimes.

[Ray_Y]

Last help, then I'm gone. I looked at that link from user Ivor Toolbox, seems to cover British Law mainly for people booking there

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/02/coronavirus-travel-help-and-your-rights/

this section covers your caseI've a future trip booked – what are my rights? And this would confirm what I worried about: Even a voucher is optional, they are not obligated to.

[Hartington]

What FLIGHT NUMBER were you booked on?
What flight number ARE you booked on?
Have the numbers changed in either direction?

[Not Long Here]

Surely if your wife is no longer medically allowed to fly (that was stated in post #8) then that's the argument for the insurance company. Nothing to do with Covid and even if Covid didn't exist and the world was as this time last year, then she still couldn't fly.

[DaveReidUK]

What FLIGHT NUMBER were you booked on?
What flight number ARE you booked on?
Have the numbers changed in either direction?

The OP's first post suggests it's only the aircraft type that has changed, in which case it's presumably BA280 (outbound), which is the only currently operating flight on the route.

It's been typically operated by a B789 in recent years, but was a B744 last winter and was presumably planned to be an A380 for W20, pre-COVID. So, albeit that it's now going to remain a B789, BA could argue that the flight is still operating.

[Chauderon]

From recent experience, you will be asked for your green card at check in. Without that or being the spouse of a citizen in the US, you won’t be permitted on the outbound flight.

[A340Yumyum]

Not a single whisper about being being denied boarding.
That Stinks !!
El Grifo
Could they possibly be assuming you’d use your common sense?
Again, the flight IS operating ; I don’t see how that can be ambiguous.

[easyflyer83]

Could they possibly be assuming you’d use your common sense?
Again, the flight IS operating ; I don’t see how that can be ambiguous.

Plus, it is the passengers responsibility to assess and ascertain their eligibility to enter a country, not the airlines.

[OC37]

A perhaps valid point has already been made if this B787 flight is the flight that you booked and paid for, ie regardless of the aircraft type is it still the same flight number and operating to the same times? ... Down my way there is a notoriously bad loco here where it is in their T&C's that should the flight become cancelled then one is entitled to a refund, a few times now I have booked way in advance to achieve silly fares for plans to then change, can't cancel but then the loco changes the schedule by perhaps as little as 10 minutes, "Aha, got you" and sure enough I have been allowed to cancel and received refunds.

But I note on BA's website:"Apply for a voucherIf your flight has been cancelled you can claim a voucher to the value of your booking. Your voucher will be valid for travel until 30 April 2022 and can be used as payment, or part payment, for a future booking.

Your new trip booked with your voucher must be fully completed by 30 April 2022 (departure and return). You will receive your voucher by email within seven days of your application"

Now that isn't in the spirit of things, that one can spend their hard-earned money buying a product for the seller to withdraw that product from sale for the seller to only offer an alternative product that one doesn't want and with no refund of monies offered, I've had a couple of previous problems with the World's Favourite myself so I understand the brick wall mentality that you are dealing with, I'll never utilise their services again but everyone to their own, and I doubt you'll ever manage to change that brick wall of a supposed customer service.

This is all on the presumption that the flight no's and/or the scheduled timings may have changed, credit card has been mentioned but those are subject to credit agreement laws which is kind of a different subject, I pay by debit card, indeed with a foreign bank also, and it is possible to make a 'chargeback' claim thru a debit card payment, if you and your wife genuinely can't travel then your monies are presently lost anyway so you have nothing to lose by attempting a chargeback.

With my bank I need to complete a form, ticking boxes and all that, and one of the areas I need to select between is "goods not received" or "goods not as described", or similar, your purchase was for two flight bookings on those dates and at those times, should BA have changed those flights and times then your applicable selection would be "goods not as described" with perhaps a stumbling block being that you agreed to there being no refund whatsover available in the T&C's at the pre-COVID time that you booked.but it's worth a try.

Good luck

P.S. This link makes for some interesting reading:

British Airways: how to cancel, rebook or get a refund on your flight ... (https://www.businesstraveller.com/features/british-airways-how-to-cancel-rebook-or-get-a-refund-on-your-flight/)

"If your flight is cancelled, you are entitled to a full refund, as per existing British Airways policies."

[missy]

Buying an airline ticket is one of the most lop sided contracts you can ever enter into. It's all covered in the T&C, none of which you can dispute or change in any whatsoever. Good luck and safe travels.

[OldLurker]

"If your flight is cancelled, you are entitled to a full refund, as per existing British Airways policies."But it seems that the flight hasn't been cancelled, only a change of aircraft type.

Apparently the OP simply booked the flight and chose seats, presumably online, without informing BA of any special requirements. In his place that's probably what I'd have done – I probably wouldn't have thought of the contingency of change of aircraft. But I think that if the OP had told BA at booking time that he required a particular type of seat (aisle), giving reasons – medical or any other – then that requirement would have become part of his contract with BA (there's a legal phrase which I forget) and when the aircraft type changed, BA would have been obliged to provide equivalent seats. That's my understanding of UK law – I gather that the OP was in Spain, and I don't know what effect that would have had.

[El Grifo]

"Buying an airline ticket is one of the most lop sided contracts you can ever enter into. It's all covered in the T&C, none of which you can dispute or change in any whatsoever. Good luck and safe travels"
Think Missy brings this to a conclusion in a perrfect way !
Thanks those of you who made genuine, honest responses !
As always, Pprune is a fountain if knowledge !
If anything develops in either a positive or negative way I, for sure will return !
One thing is for certain, I shall not give up !
Thank you all once again !
Saludos
El Grifo

[easyflyer83]

What I will say is RE: your wife’s condition, you are able to stipulate, even on boarding, the seat that is the most suitable (in your class) and under legislation, the airline must oblige, subject to safety regs.

[PDR1]

I would ask that in future communications you to consider being less profligate with exclamation marks - we need to preserve finite resources for future generations.

PDR

[El Grifo]

Thanks easyflyer !! All grist to the mill :-)

PDR - Always one, often you 🤪 !!!!!!!

El G.

[Kiltrash]

Assumming you have a valid ESTA. Have you checked the US have not cancelled as they are not accepting UK or Spanish Nationals. . Have you tried the US Embassy and forgetting the medical issues but you no longer wish / able to visit.
If you no longer have a ESTA then how can BA accept your checkin. I know they will say it's up to you to have a valid Visa, but if the US have cancelled yours .....

[S.o.S.]

Thank you folks for an interesting discussion, very helpful. And you all managed to just keep away from 'the line' although I was hovering on the Delete key at one point.

[Cough]

Just in case you end up able to fly (medically, and politically), the back row in economy in BA's config on the 787-9 has 2 abreast seats on either side. Window/Aisle... If your wife's condition improves you may wish to reserve those seats...

BA 787-9 seating plan (https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/British_Airways/British_Airways_Boeing_787-9.php)

[Paul Lupp]

From what I understand having checked about UK citizens flying into the USA some weeks ago as I was supposed to go for a work trip in May....

If you have an existing ESTA and try to fly to the USA, your ESTA will be cancelled and next time, you will have to apply from scratch. You won't even be allowed to check in, let alone board.
If you have a valid ESTA, don't attempt to fly to the USA, and its expiry date will be preserved.

Somehow the BA check in system is linked to valid ESTAs - possibly it is the same with all airlines.
My ESTA expired shortly after I was due to fly to the USA but at the moment you cannot apply for an ESTA.
There may still be passenger planes flying from the UK to the USA, but most are full of cargo where the seats would normally be, the seats having been removed.

Safety first, and at the moment that means stay at home, no matter how important to you the reason may be to want to vist the USA.
Take care

[Hartington]

I'll ask again because I can't see an actual, factual answer.

Are the flight numbers that you are being offered identical to the flight numbers you booked?

[El Grifo]

Hi Hartington,
I was butting out before the thread went down the tubes :-)
Same flt numbers, different aircraft !
Just to answer others, as a Travel Photgrapher of 23 years standing, flying long haul as well as medium for all of those years, I am fairly clued up on paperwork etc.
Full and comprehensive insurance in place, ESTAS renewed prior to expiry of previous. Communicated with US Immigration Authorities who confirmed non-entry.
Assumed I had everything covered !
Unlike one or two here, I did not see this thing coming !
To the vast majority of responders who were of great help,
I thank you !
If anyone has any more points of relevance, I of course would be happy to hear !
Saludos
El Grifo :-)

[nonsense]

The Americans with disabilities act applies to non Americans flying into and out of the USA on non US carriers too, as I discovered in 2005 when nobody wanted to let me bring a CPAP machine on board.

The airline is required to make reasonable accomodations to allow your disabled wife to fly. All she's asking for is an aisle seat; that's hardly a difficult or unreasonable request, even on the day of the flight! As you've given them plenty of notice of your requirements, there *ought* to be no problem ensuring she can have one, just one!, of the many suitable seats on the aircraft.

If Americans can fly with an emotional support horse, surely arranging to provide your wife with one of the 4 in every 9 seats adjacent to an aisle isn't beyond the capacity of British Airways! If they insist that it IS too difficult, start muttering "Americans with disability act" (there's sure to be a UK equivalent too), followed perhaps by "MS society".

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/22/nyregion/22xp-serviceanimals/22xp-serviceanimals-jumbo.jpg

[a_ross84]

This why I haven't flown with ba for 20 years.

Absolutely awful airline.

[El Grifo]

Thanks nonsense !
However, we as UK passport holders and residents of Spain, we are denied entry into the US .

El G.

[Buswinker]

Points that remain to be addressed:

has the flight number changed? Yes or no

your reason for not travelling- wife’s medical condition? Or US entry restrictions?

it seems you approached your insurance company with “US entry restrictions” as your reason for not travelling. Not 100% sure that they’re in the right to not help you on this basis. However, there is extensive mention of wife no longer being able to travel because of medical condition- in which case you need to be explicit with the insurance company that this is the reason you’re no longer travelling

everything else is white noise and important points are being lost in it

try and distil your argument into 2 or 3 short, declarative sentences, and try again

[El Grifo]

Thank you for the kind invitation, but in light of the existing content of the thread, I am sure you can extract all of the relevant information you require !
El Grifo

[PDR1]

If you want an answer you must present the information in a concise and complete form. The members of this forum are not your slaves, and they are under no obligation to wade through your confused, convoluted and overly-punctuated postings to extract salient points - that kind of attitude makes you come over as an entitled oik with something to hide.

If I understand correctly you bought your tickets in Spain using a spanish payment card. If that is the case you need to be talking to someone who understands spanish consumer law.

Was your "Full and comprehensive insurance" also from a spanish provider? If so you may need to take expert advice on what is covered by that insurance, because it varies from country to country.

Unless you explicitly identified your wife's special needs at the time of the booking you probably have no rights relating to the change of aircraft or seat locations. You bought standard tickets, and the Ts&Cs for those (available on the booking website) will invariably say the airline can change aeroplane type and seat assignments without notice. In my experience of commercial flying (long, medium and short haul - must be well over a hundred flights over the last 30-40 years) I think the number of times when my initial seat allocations survived through to the flight would be counted on the fingers of one thumb. If you want any great confidence you have to be a high-graded frequent flyer, but even then the only seat allocations that are reliable are the ones made a few days before the flight (in the privileged period when frequent flyers can check in but regular customers can't). If you need special treatment due to disabilities then TELL THE AIRLINE BEFORE YOU BOOK. They may be able to accommodate your needs, but it may need you to buy a more expensive ticket deal.

If your sole reason for not being able to travel is that the US border is closed to you then it's nothing to do with the airline. If that specific risk is not covered by your travel insurance then it's not their problem either. You can try suing the US government if you like - if you happen to like wasting money.

It might be worth asking the insurer under which specific clause(s) they are denying a claim. I have successfully changed the decision of a british travel insurer when I read page 17 of the 16 page policy document and found a list of things that were covered followed by a list of things that were not covered. The final entry in the second list said "anything not included in the first list". This open exclusion (there's a term for it that I can't remember off hand) isn't allowed under English contract law, and when I pointed this out to them the paid up almost by return of post. So ask them which specific clause excludes your claim, and then read the contract.

PDR

[cxorcist]

Without reading all of the above, I think your best bet is to make a play (given the circumstances) for your own row, meaning window and aisle seat with no one in the middle seat. Better yet, take the center row and get two aisle seats and therefore two aisles to access. Better still, upgrade to World Traveller Plus and avoid the middle seat altogether on the windows.

PS... With all due respect, especially given your age and health considerations, maybe international travel right now with a killer Chinese virus out there is a bad idea. I’m sure no one in the wedding party would hold it against you.

[hunterboy]

I think one of the earlier posters referred to asking the question on social media. I gather BA are keen to look good on social media, so you may get further by asking them via Twitter?
I also know that BA are very aware of the American disability act as we all have to do a module every year on it. Whether that would be of use in your case now is questionable as you won’t be granted entry to the USA anyway. Though, with the Donald, that could change tomorrow .

[OC37]

Thanks nonsense !
However, we as UK passport holders and residents of Spain, we are denied entry into the US .

El G.

El Grifo,

But how would US immigration know that you are resident of Spain ... Just curious?

[El Grifo]

I suspect they would pick it up from my ESTA application OC37.
Hiding anything from US Immigration is fraught with problems.
PDR, I can see you are stressing a little about my problem !
I have no intention whatsoever of travelling to LA at this time.
The advice and help I have been given here has been invaluable !
BA have now canceled my flight and are offering a refund.
Strangely, this applies to the outbound leg only.
Return leg still pending .
El G.

[OC37]

I
BA have now canceled my flight and are offering a refund.
Strangely, this applies to the outbound leg only.
Return leg still pending .
El G.

LOL ... But if it's a cheapy return if you don't travel on the outward leg then you're not allowed to travel on the inward leg ... I think :)

[El Grifo]

Verging on a farce to be fair OC37.
Just a standard fair to be honest.
About a grand for the two of us ! :
El G.

[ivor toolbox]

If you have an existing ESTA and try to fly to the USA, your ESTA will be cancelled

/\ correct



My ESTA expired shortly after I was due to fly to the USA but at the moment you cannot apply for an ESTA.


/\ incorrect; you can still apply for an ESTA, just clicky the X in corner of red box which notifies the the Presidential order, and close it to continue to application linky. Only ever use direct us gov site linky below.

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/

[frangatang]

I have pretended to buy a ticket with BA just now, return to lax from lhr, leaving next week. Interesting that it has allowed me to book, and
not once has it warned me that l wont be permitted to go, being a uk citizen. Trying to find out you CAN go in the first instance isnt easy , so l havent bothered.
the flight is the 269 out, 268 back on the microlight 787.
Good luck in the minefield of finding where you can and cant fly to.

[ivor toolbox]

I have pretended to buy a ticket with BA just now, return to lax from lhr, leaving next week. Interesting that it has allowed me to book, and
not once has it warned me that l wont be permitted to go, being a uk citizen. Trying to find out you CAN go in the first instance isnt easy , so l havent bothered.
the flight is the 269 out, 268 back on the microlight 787.
Good luck in the minefield of finding where you can and cant fly to.


No, it won't tell you.

It's up to you as traveller, to make sure you comply with border entry conditions, in this case ( USA )
you have to be US citizen, Green card holder, or certain class of VISA holder, to enter.

It's not up to airline to tell you. You are supposed to be grown ups.

[OC37]

Verging on a farce to be fair OC37.
Just a standard fair to be honest.
About a grand for the two of us ! :
El G.

During September BA's one-way fare LAX/LHR is $1,300 so if you've paid just £500 round-trip you're on a cheapy fare and you wouldn't be allowed to travel just one-way LAX/LHR having only paid £500 and not having travelled outward from LHR to travel the return.

[El Grifo]

Frangatang, I find that to be incredible in the current circumstances and am surprise that there are those who find it accptable.
You might expect this of the RYR's of this word, but not from BA !
Every other element of my trip has been cancelled, 3 flight legs, 2 hotel bookings and two inter-airport transfers.
Everyone has given me a refund. All the bookings were mde last year before Covid was even dreamt off.
Each one understood the risk we were faced with and refunded without question.
Although different a bit from my situation, surely BA accepting a booking at this stage, without warning of the fact that UK passengers are unable to board, is tantamount to fraud. A damned disgrace at least !!

El Grifo

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

is tantamount to fraud. A damned disgrace at least !!

Seriously El Grifo, it is time to listen to what you are been told. It is, and always has been, YOUR responsibility to ensure that you are legal for a flight. This has been true before covid, during covid, and after covid. Does/has any airline ever told you of visa requirements or entry restrictions during booking? Does every airline you have flown with told you not to be drunk when you show up to the airport? or maybe that you have to be fully clothed? This is the same as visa restrictions, your problem, not the airline. If you may be listened to what people have politely told you on a 4 page thread (and that your thoughts may be completely wrong) you would save yourself a lot of stress.

[WHBM]

We specifically booked the 2 seats, window and aisle upstairs on the A380. We booked and paid early to avoid any hiccups
I'm sure that all here are just trying to assist, but one must point out that, although one regularly reads in such situations about how the passenger "had booked and paid early", that doesn't give any preference of treatment, in fact the opposite, for many months beforehand the airline timetable can only be an estimate, and is commonly subject to rearrangement, maybe more than once, as situations change. Now in return for this you are, in fact, paying what is often a notably reduced fare. When I go to LAX it is commonly booked by the office a week or less before departure, when I likely find that I have paid maybe five TIMES what you have paid, possibly even more, to sit next to you with the same service, and furthermore commonly get the worst seats when only single middles are left, separated from my colleague who has paid the same high fare.

Paying early is not all in the airline coffers, also contrary to belief, as the credit card companies use intermediary organisations called Merchant Card Processors, who, simplistically, may hold all or part of the funds until the service is actually provided, dispatched, or whatever. The way this is done varies by type of business and the credit card company's experience of liabilities. This is in part driven by the legal requirement that if the service is not provided, you can get the money back from the credit card company, who of course are not keen to fund all the commercial problems that can happen, so don't pay it across to the airline or whoever in the first place until it's reported done.

[El Grifo]

WBHM, I booked early to ensure suitable seating for my wife. We have travelelled the route several times and in light of my wife's medical condition we need specific seating. Early booking was not a cost saving exercise.
The booking, as previously mentioned, made by debit card, not credit card !
Thanks for your input.
El Grifo

[El Grifo]

Although it has been made very clear to me on several occassions that I will not be permitted entry into the US based on my Spanish Residency and my UK departure, BA today, still insist that I will be allowed entry with a 2 week quarantine proviso !
Despite the varying and different views of my predicament, surely there can only be one answer to this !
Will I be allowed entry, or will I not !
Answers please on the back of an envelope :-)
El G.

[Asturias56]

From the US Embassy website in DublinQ: Can I travel to the United States? What does the travel order (Presidential Proclamation 9996) mean?

Entry of foreign nationals who were physically present within the following list of countries within 14 days prior to their entry or attempted entry into the United States is suspended, per Presidential Proclamations 9984, 9992, 9993, 9996 and the subsequent proclamation issued May 24, 2020:

Brazil; The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, excluding overseas territories outside of Europe; The Republic of Ireland; The 26 countries that comprise the Schengen Area (Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and Switzerland); The Islamic Republic of Iran; The People’s Republic of China.

Please click here to review Presidential Proclamation 9996 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-certain-additional-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-novel-coronavirus/) in full for detailed information.

The travel restriction does not apply to American citizens, legal permanent residents, most immediate family members of U.S. citizens, and other individuals who are identified in Presidential Proclamation 9996. The Department of Homeland Security will direct those who have been in the Schengen Area who are exempt from these restrictions, including American citizens, to travel through select airports where the U.S. Government has implemented enhanced screening procedures. Travelers are advised to visit the Department of Homeland Security’s (https://www.dhs.gov/) website for further guidance on U.S. travel restrictions.

[Asturias56]

"Sec. 2. Scope of Suspension and Limitation on Entry.
(a) Section 1 of this proclamation shall not apply to:

(i) any lawful permanent resident of the United States;

(ii) any alien who is the spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident;

(iii) any alien who is the parent or legal guardian of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that the U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident is unmarried and under the age of 21;

(iv) any alien who is the sibling of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, provided that both are unmarried and under the age of 21;

(v) any alien who is the child, foster child, or ward of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident, or who is a prospective adoptee seeking to enter the United States pursuant to the IR-4 or IH-4 visa classifications;

(vi) any alien traveling at the invitation of the United States Government for a purpose related to containment or mitigation of the virus;

(vii) any alien traveling as a nonimmigrant pursuant to a C-1, D, or C-1/D nonimmigrant visa as a crewmember or any alien otherwise traveling to the United States as air or sea crew;

(viii) any alien

(A) seeking entry into or transiting the United States pursuant to one of the following visas: A-1, A-2, C-2, C-3 (as a foreign government official or immediate family member of an official), E-1 (as an employee of TECRO or TECO or the employee’s immediate family members), G-1, G-2, G-3, G-4, NATO-1 through NATO-4, or NATO-6 (or seeking to enter as a nonimmigrant in one of those NATO categories); or

(B) whose travel falls within the scope of section 11 of the United Nations Headquarters Agreement;

(ix) any alien who is a member of the U.S. Armed Forces and any alien who is a spouse or child of a member of the U.S. Armed Forces;
(x) any alien whose entry would not pose a significant risk of introducing, transmitting, or spreading the virus, as determined by the Secretary of Health and Human Services, through the CDC Director or his designee;

(xi) any alien whose entry would further important United States law enforcement objectives, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their respective designees, based on a recommendation of the Attorney General or his designee; or

(xii) any alien whose entry would be in the national interest, as determined by the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or their designees.

(b) Nothing in this proclamation shall be construed to affect any individual’s eligibility for asylum, withholding of removal, or protection under the regulations issued pursuant to the legislation implementing the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, consistent with the laws and regulations of the United States.

[possel]

... But I think that if the OP had told BA at booking time that he required a particular type of seat (aisle), giving reasons – medical or any other – then that requirement would have become part of his contract with BA (there's a legal phrase which I forget) and when the aircraft type changed..
I think the legal phrase is that the seat requirement was "of the essence" to the contract for the flight tickets. He would have had to say that before buying the tickets - and BA might have said that they couldn't accept that, and so refused to enter into a contract with him.

If there's a better phrase, I'm sure someone will correct me...

[S.o.S.]

No PDR. This year is difficult enough with being rude in the cabin. I have deleted your last and please remember the No.1 PPRuNe rule - play the ball not the player. These are complicated times and the laws being used by all parties were never designed for this kind of wholesale change to society.