Chinook Power Line Strike Wales

[Thud_and_Blunder]

BBC Wales news story (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53575570)

"A Chinook helicopter was forced to make an unplanned landing on Carmarthenshire farmland, Ministry of Defence officials have confirmed.The MoD said the incident happened on Tuesday evening near Llangynin, and the twin-engine aircraft crew suffered "minor injuries".

A suspect "wire strike" is thought to be responsible for the heavy-lifting helicopter coming down in the area.

Military chiefs said the Chinook was on a training exercise at the time.

The helicopter's crew have remained with the aircraft to maintain security until it can be recovered."

[KPax]

I hope all are ok.
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.walesonline.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fwales-news%2Fchinook-helicopter-makes-emergency-landing-18679134%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1QLP2zzENM6SduxsKLud2a2-lNscgGD7WY8ATX-F2g7pdCw6cpYYU2FIA&h=AT3nj63YOGis9oislMaTzNzc_8C_Zey1NnEodHYcJebICQiHdh_zfWZOsF zNQ_ugdBJfA0UiEuGhKD2noUvv15gEWUod6sTg5SBSMQyqgDpwIauBHt0fin rHedXQN5RLzC1XqpNJjUbZ3NrQQg&__tn__=%2CmH-R&c[0]=AT2PZSeCmz_y3SwoEwUZJcWzdZTAjCw7KuEeM1RrGZp2sKlwasevgEZaK6w TI_ncGT4Qooe0axZzj10ViR-JKD_4WZS0PgrFuQabsbXaPK194f_iHZukc0oRZ7HEd_o1rjjjQgJi_7Zxb7Y rqJdqFTZROGTBvZKJthJeLZm0XLxPaGz7SSffCjM0wI364Wt2FdSE7CP00D8 73i15HQ

[N707ZS]

Report in the local rag Wales on line, report won't let you copy the link. All seem to be ok but the chinook had to at least stay last night.

[airsound]

Can't make that link work, KPax.

Here's another report, from Forces Net.
https://www.forces.net/news/chinook-forced-land-welsh-field-after-incident

The picture seems to show a landing without benefit of wheels, which might belie the RAF's "minor damage". The report also mentions "striking power lines". But no serious injuries, thankfully.

Oops

airsound

[Nige321]

Can't make that link work, KPax.

Here's another report, from Forces Net.
https://www.forces.net/news/chinook-forced-land-welsh-field-after-incident

The picture seems to show a landing without benefit of wheels, which might belie the RAF's "minor damage". The report also mentions "striking power lines". But no serious injuries, thankfully.

Oops

airsound

All wheels are present in the pic in your link...

[Out Of Trim]

Can't make that link work, KPax.

Here's another report, from Forces Net.
https://www.forces.net/news/chinook-forced-land-welsh-field-after-incident

The picture seems to show a landing without benefit of wheels, which might belie the RAF's "minor damage". The report also mentions "striking power lines". But no serious injuries, thankfully.

Oops

airsound

The gear appears down to me! Your link describes a broken cockpit windscreen due to a wire strike.

[Dave Therhino]

The Chinook is fixed gear. The question would be whether they tore it off. I did not view the video, but it sounds like others see the gear still intact.

[trim it out]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x1168/2cdfda46_6abc_4761_bdd5_1db74a73201f_5054042c452aa279f93fb8d 23a08580f0d13636b.jpeg

[ShyTorque]

The crew of that were very lucky they weren’t flying six feet lower!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Whilst working for the company that probably owns the wires they hit, we were given a look at a programme which was available to the military showing the location of all High Voltage (11kV and above) overhead wires. I take it that it isn't in widespread use...

[Fareastdriver]

Those three wire strikes look like mine so that would be an 11 KV medium voltage cable assembly, the type used to feed farms etc. Not marked on any map apart from the installer's. Almost impossible to see low level against a dark background.


They believed me so that must be right.

[bobward]

Are our helicopters not fitted with cable cutters then?
Apologies for a potentially stupid question from an aging spotter.....

[charliegolf]

The crew of that were very lucky they weren’t flying six feet lower!

Wouldn't that be a running landing:E

CG

[ShyTorque]

Wouldn't that be a running landing:E

CG

Yes, an "interesting" one, with no rotors!

[TWT]

So, what now ?

Repair it in situ, truck it back to base or see who has an Mi-26 available for a lifting job ?

[dead_pan]

Yup, looks like an 11kv cable. Must have been flying v low.

Also intriguing to note the strike angle - were they banking or flying along a hill when they struck the cables?

​

[Distant Voice]

A 2013 paper covering the MoD Helicopter Safety Enhancement Programme stated,

There is currently no wire cutter kit developed for the Chinook and there are no known plans to develop one. The cost and timescale associated with introducing this capability suggest that an alternative means of protecting the aircraft against wire strike may be a better option. Assessment of a tablet based moving map capability is underway, which would have details of known wires and obstacles overlaid. The key to this type of system is considered to be an effective means of alerting the aircrew to the presence of wires without them having to spend prolonged periods “eyes-in”.

I hope the ODH found suitable mitigation to cover the wire strike risk when he signed off on the ALARP safety statement.

DV

[NutLoose]

I seem to remember a wire detector developed for the Puma and trialled on the OCU that consisted of a ring of warning lights, they detected the current flowing through the wires, all went well flying towards wires on the tests and detecting them, however I seem to remember as they were leaving the grid cut the juice and yup you guessed right.

The Chinook, from RAF Odiham in Hampshire, landed in a field near Llangynin, Carmarthenshire, after striking power lines and causing a power cut in the village.

The incident is thought to have happened during a flight to Devon.


Funny routing to Devon ;)

[ve3id]

Obviously a very strong crosswind :-)

[NutLoose]

Here you go a cheap detector

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-10-21/powerlines-cant-hide-safe-flight-detector

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Real-time-lidar-based-wire-detection-as-a-helicopter-flies-towards-high-tension-power_fig1_303045042

[NutLoose]

So, what now ?

Repair it in situ, truck it back to base or see who has an Mi-26 available for a lifting job ?


Speeeed tape

[sagan]

At the angle those wires hit there would have to have been a rotor strike ?

[chinook240]

Funny routing to Devon ;)

I guess it depends on where you’re starting from?

[superplum]

Speeeed tape

Autoglass enroute - have your policy details ready!

[jayteeto]

On my Puma OCU in 1989, my flight commander was carrying out a concealed approach (nb 10’agl) and took out the electricity supply to St Davids in Wales. The RAF Valley press officer handled the story saying he didn’t understand why the aircraft was below 250 feet outside a Tactical Training Area and that a full investigation would take place 😳

[ShyTorque]

Nutty, that wire detector was also fitted to a couple of Sqn aircraft, too and I flew them as part of the trial. Practical opinion? They didn’t work; many false negatives and false positives.

[Just This Once...]

They didn’t work; many false negatives and false positives......around 50 per second.

[NutLoose]

Wasn't it something about a frequency the blades gave off?

[dead_pan]

Wasn't it something about a frequency the blades gave off?

Doh! One would have thought the boffins would have thought of this: "It would have worked fine if it hadn't been for those darned rotors!"

[ShyTorque]

...around 50 per second.

Only if you were flying circuits...... ;)

[TBM-Legend]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x1168/2cdfda46_6abc_4761_bdd5_1db74a73201f_5054042c452aa279f93fb8d 23a08580f0d13636b.jpeg


Call "Windscreen O'Brian" and some duct tape and voila, back in service...

[huge72]

I remember a night extraction from a field between XMG and Cullaville pre NVG. We had carried out a recce during day and flew to the torch T that the Troops had. Yes you guessed, Wrong Field! As we lifted and transited away, bright flash and all lights went out in Cullaville. On arrival back at BBK we still had 40 foot of cable wrapped around the port wheel. Neatly cut of at the tail rotor! As they used to say NI was a Bog held together by WIRES!

[TyroPicard]

So, what now ?

Repair it in situ, truck it back to base or see who has an Mi-26 available for a lifting job ?
ISTR that a Chinook can lift another Chinook...

[[email protected]]

If the 'tablet based system' referred to is the same one as introduced to the SAR Force, it was a moving map but it couldn't be installed on the aircraft due to the need for lengthy and expensive trials and modifications.

So it was a 'carry on device' that was worn on a kneepad - because it was 'carry on' it couldn't be integrated with the aircraft intercom to provide audio warning of wires, just visual - so much for reduced 'heads-in' what a fecking waste of time and money.

The database was good showing many domestic wires of the sort they hit but a proper, aircraft integrated moving map with audio warnings is what is required.

I cannot believe they have managed to wriggle out of producing a WSPS wire strike prevention system (cutters) for the Chinook, how long has it been in service??????

[ShyTorque]

The trial was 1979; tablets came in small brown bottles back then!

The one Nutty and I refer to was a panel installed instrument with a display that looked rather like the petals of a daisy, to show the relative direction.

[tucumseh]

ShyTorque

Very interesting. That wouldn't be the RSRE LIDAR kit - I know that was offered in 1986, and trialled in (I think) an Andover in about 1991. Perhaps an earlier iteration? Unfortunately, MoD stopped funding such R&D, and QinetiQ had their LIDAR funding slashed about 12 years ago. Most of the world's leading experts were made redundant, to the benefit of France and Germany. But MoD should still own the IPR.

[Fareastdriver]

Totally off thread but the picture reminds me of when I was sitting on a bench in Orchard Road having been thrown out of a bar with an R&R US Army Chinook pilot. The subject was the nostril intakes on the front pylon.

He told me, remember this is the 1970s so it was a Mk 1, that it was a pressure sensitive system to keep the aft rotor behind the front one. " The s##t hits the fan if you have a bird jam up one of them."

Is that what they were for? possibly overtaken by electronics.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Here you go a cheap detector

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-10-21/powerlines-cant-hide-safe-flight-detector

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Real-time-lidar-based-wire-detection-as-a-helicopter-flies-towards-high-tension-power_fig1_303045042
​​​​​​I'm not directly familiar with either of those systems but I'd be impressed if they detect wires that size without much in the way of false alarms.... Note that the fluff article linked is describing super-grid pylons which do quite a lot more "erg-ing" than a set of domestics, even triple domestics. I'd be impressed if LIDAR could pick them out in the clutter as well, though I'd imagine with some heavy processing horsepower it's theoretically possible.

[Evalu8ter]

Crab, there are structural and location issues for fitting Cutters to the Chinook. The roof would need a lot of mods to be up to the task, and the chin is already taken up with the EO/IR. When I was in the PT we had a whole stack of reports that suggested the Chinook’s mass would snap most of the wires it hit, if the rotor system didn’t do the job first - and given the number we’ve hit over the years, especially in FRY, this has proven to be the case. This one is towards the top of the scale, and given the type of wires they’ve hit, the SI will be interesting to read. Re tablets, we are agreed - short term and cheap way of not doing something properly, and even the best mapping system can’t keep pace with wires/whip antennae going up at short notice.

PBA, there are LIDAR based obstacle detection systems out there available OTS, as well as radar ones. They all will create some false alerts, and cost money to buy and integrate, and can add weight to the nose. JHC prefers not to spend its money on them, instead emphasising crew planning and buying PEDs to ameliorate the risk ito ALARP - which I think is optimistic at best. We’ve also conducted a substantial number of TDPs and R&D in this area to overcome DVE issues - as usual, no money to properly exploit the knowledge gained.....

[[email protected]]

Evalu8ter - I take your point but even if the mass of the Chinook or the rotors snap the wires, what about the damage done to the airframe, rotors or crew? Seems a very optimistic attitude to say 'let them break wires'.

[sittingstress]

I think secondary to the crew getting out safely is the issue of the chap at 1min 26secs being crated!

Per Ardua

We get everywhere! (https://www.forces.net/news/chinook-forced-land-welsh-field-after-incident)

[charliegolf]

Evalu8ter - I take your point but even if the mass of the Chinook or the rotors snap the wires, what about the damage done to the airframe, rotors or crew? Seems a very optimistic attitude to say 'let them break wires'.

Agreed, try it in Norway- single wire, middle of nowhere and at God knows what height!

CG

[dead_pan]

The trial was 1979; tablets came in small brown bottles back then!

The one Nutty and I refer to was a panel installed instrument with a display that looked rather like the petals of a daisy, to show the relative direction.

I vaguely recall something along these lines being featured on Tomorrow's World back in the day. Was there a civil test too?

[dead_pan]

Evalu8ter - I take your point but even if the mass of the Chinook or the rotors snap the wires, what about the damage done to the airframe, rotors or crew? Seems a very optimistic attitude to say 'let them break wires'.

From the looks of the damage on the pic, the wires have a good account of themselves, the wokka straining against their restraint then finally being let forth with an almighty twang.

A frightening, nee shocking, experience for the crew no doubt. Isn't it standard procedure to refer the pilot as Sparky from now on?

[brett s]

This was one of ours in the mid 80's, hit wires under NVG's. Was cut by the blades, they were also lucky like this crew.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/991x694/ch_47c_chinook_helicopter_67_18532_b_master_3c3016cc1ad11d7f f4b8ab01e2f46f7254c1c415.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/993x694/ch_47c_chinook_helicopter_67_18532_c_master_c5ca0e7567d009f2 32d383ead97ff2b8530e1827.jpg

[ShyTorque]

The most frightening case I read about was a Lynx flying over a Norwegian fjord. It caught a cable at about 450 ft above the water level, between the fuselage and the skids. The aircraft nosed over and swung inverted on the cable. It remained swinging there for some time, before falling off. They survived intact!

Having said that, an RAF colleague of mine died during an Australian exchange tour when his Chinook hit high HT cables and went down.

[ShyTorque]

I vaguely recall something along these lines being featured on Tomorrow's World back in the day. Was there a civil test too?

I have no information on that. We weren’t told anything much, tbh and being military we didn’t ask.

[RetiredBA/BY]

So what happened to the principle I was taught at Tern Hill (Sioux and Whirlwind 10) about 50 years ago, when near cables ALWAYS fly over the pylon .
Neither had wire cutters.

[Fareastdriver]

You have to see the wires or the poles first. In my case the erectors had thoughtfully thought about the landscape and positioned the poles amid trees and the wires strung across open country.

You were lucky in a Sioux. Sycamores didn't have enough power to get over a pole.

[bspatz]

From the eye witness account it seems that the chinook was already making an emergency landing before hitting the wires so it is seems to me understandable that such an unplanned event would increase the likelihood of hitting wires.

[trim it out]

I need to do this civpop PFL recognition course. Is it on Modnet and can I claim actuals?

[racedo]

The RAF Valley press officer handled the story saying he didn’t understand why the aircraft was below 250 feet outside a Tactical Training Area and that a full investigation would take place 😳

Investigation report to be published in next week or 100 :E

[NutLoose]

I have no information on that. We weren’t told anything much, tbh and being military we didn’t ask.

I chatted to those doing the install and testing, they if memory serves me correctly we’re having problems setting it up due to the frequencies the helicopter naturally put out, I think rotors were mentioned. The other thing was they only detected live cables so could lull you into a false sense of security.

[NutLoose]

It would appear LIDAR is the way ahead.

https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/remotesensing/remotesensing-11-01798/article_deploy/remotesensing-11-01798.pdf

[PPRuNeUser0211]

It would appear LIDAR is the way ahead.

https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/remotesensing/remotesensing-11-01798/article_deploy/remotesensing-11-01798.pdf
Nut, that seems more like a mapping/survey tool for keeping tabs on your power lines - the method described relies on height separation between the wires and the background veg/ground. Might be useful for mapping large wires in an operational environment though.

[dogsridewith]

(have read all thread posts, but not links)
Power outage. But did the 3 wires break?

[NutLoose]

Nut, that seems more like a mapping/survey tool for keeping tabs on your power lines - the method described relies on height separation between the wires and the background veg/ground. Might be useful for mapping large wires in an operational environment though.

PBA this shows it in a helicopter environment

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303045042_Perception_for_Safe_Autonomous_Helicopter_Flight_a nd_Landing

The advantage I see would be it would not rely on the cables being powered, simply present, and it would also detect masts etc.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

PBA this shows it in a helicopter environment

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303045042_Perception_for_Safe_Autonomous_Helicopter_Flight_a nd_Landing

The advantage I see would be it would not rely on the cables being powered, simply present, and it would also detect masts etc.

Absolutely, and detecting unpowered wires is definitely where it's at for a variety of reasons. However, even that link only describes spotting domestics 1000' away. Better than nothing for sure, certainly at slow speed on the approach or nap of earth, but if you're at 50'/120kts it's not going to save you from a set that are strung. 1000' equates to 330m approx - that's about 5s out from the wires if I've got my maths right?

There's a lot of room for technology in all of this, but two things are key - how do you present it to the crew and how do you prevent it from going off continuously with false alarms or otherwise.

Both of those are turbo challenging and I'd be the last to say I know what the answer is. Active detection has advantages over database systems for sure, especially in operational flying, but false alarm rate will get you killed through alert fatigue just as well as not having the system. I do know that we've been preaching "look out the window, clear your flight path and fly defensively" since Pontius was a pilot, and people still clatter into wires though!

[ShyTorque]

I chatted to those doing the install and testing, they if memory serves me correctly we’re having problems setting it up due to the frequencies the helicopter naturally put out, I think rotors were mentioned. The other thing was they only detected live cables so could lull you into a false sense of security.


Unfortunately it didn’t actually detect the very big HT cables running East-West in the local low flying area and I’m fairly sure they were live. It gave me no sense of security at all!

[charliegolf]

Shy, was that the little circular display by the pilot's right knee, with green lights indicating the quadrant the wires were in? Seem to recall that being trialled, and it not being very trust-inspiring at all.

CG

[NutLoose]

Yes that awakens a sleeping brain cell and sounds like it.

[msbbarratt]

From the eye witness account it seems that the chinook was already making an emergency landing before hitting the wires so it is seems to me understandable that such an unplanned event would increase the likelihood of hitting wires.

Pulling off an emergency landing which also involves a brush with wires? Sounds like a "well done" + a big scotch for the jangled nerves is in order.

[NutLoose]

Absolutely, and detecting unpowered wires is definitely where it's at for a variety of reasons. However, even that link only describes spotting domestics 1000' away. Better than nothing for sure, certainly at slow speed on the approach or nap of earth, but if you're at 50'/120kts it's not going to save you from a set that are strung. 1000' equates to 330m approx - that's about 5s out from the wires if I've got my maths right?

There's a lot of room for technology in all of this, but two things are key - how do you present it to the crew and how do you prevent it from going off continuously with false alarms or otherwise.

Both of those are turbo challenging and I'd be the last to say I know what the answer is. Active detection has advantages over database systems for sure, especially in operational flying, but false alarm rate will get you killed through alert fatigue just as well as not having the system. I do know that we've been preaching "look out the window, clear your flight path and fly defensively" since Pontius was a pilot, and people still clatter into wires though!

The advantage of LIDAR is it also cuts through vegetation and shows the terrain as it is.
Many of the archeological programmes on the TV these days use it to physically map terrain through trees etc so they can see disturbances in the ground layer. You would think someone would have exploited it now sufficiently to make it a viable asset.

[Misformonkey]

Eye witness accounts tend to be a little off the mark as the Clutha accounts would suggest.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

dogsridewith: the answer appears to be yes; the company which owns the powerline had one of its helicopter crews re-stringing the span the following day, as can be seen in the Forces TV video.

[OvertHawk]

dogsridewith: the answer appears to be yes; the company which owns the powerline had one of its helicopter crews re-stringing the span the following day, as can be seen in the Forces TV video.

Even if the wires had not been broken they would still have been replaced after an event like this.

[[email protected]]

Interesting rumour that the crew were stunting and bunting over Chivenor earlier in the day.................

[ShyTorque]

Shy, was that the little circular display by the pilot's right knee, with green lights indicating the quadrant the wires were in? Seem to recall that being trialled, and it not being very trust-inspiring at all.

CG

I don’t recall green lights, only the daisy petal display.....but it’s over 40 years ago.

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember a while back we had a thread about anxiety dreams among aircrew. Many contributors to the thread were surprised that they weren't the only ones who had a recurring dream about flying very low, often along a street, and always under wires. Its certainly a dream I had many times when I was flying.

I forecast a lot of disturbed nights among those have been following this thread. My only comment about this accident is that I am amazed how tough those windscreens are, and how bloody lucky the guys were.

[Vendee]

I guess the damage to this Chinook will be repaired fairly easily but this isn't always the case for wirestrikes. A few years ago, Apache ZJ202 out of Wattisham hit a HT cable in the local area. The physical damage wasn't too bad because of the Apache's wirecutter system. A spokesman for 16 Air Assault Brigade said: “The Apache has sustained minor internal damage and will be moved to Wattisham, by road.

But the HT voltage from the cable fried the aircraft's electrical system and welded the main undercarriage cross tube to the airframe. ZJ202 never flew again.

[500 Fan]

A 2013 paper covering the MoD Helicopter Safety Enhancement Programme stated,

There is currently no wire cutter kit developed for the Chinook and there are no known plans to develop one. The cost and timescale associated with introducing this capability suggest that an alternative means of protecting the aircraft against wire strike may be a better option. Assessment of a tablet based moving map capability is underway, which would have details of known wires and obstacles overlaid. The key to this type of system is considered to be an effective means of alerting the aircrew to the presence of wires without them having to spend prolonged periods “eyes-in”.

I hope the ODH found suitable mitigation to cover the wire strike risk when he signed off on the ALARP safety statement.

DV

There was a wire-strike kit proposed as part of the equipment fit for the HH-47 proposal for the USAF's CSAR-X competition. Forward of each landing gear leg was situated a wire-cutter. It looks like another wire-cutter was situated under the nose. The CH-46 also had a wire-strike kit fitted during its later years in service but as mentioned above, blades fitted over the windscreen might not have been possible. It is odd that no kit was ever put into use on the Chinook.

500 Fan.

[Tashengurt]

I'm amazed that something so apparently simple as a wirecutter can be less desirable than a software system that seems to be less than proven.
I would have thought both would be the ideal with the cutters as a minimum and a fail safe for those pesky undetected wires.
Obviously I'm missing something, why isn't it as simple as just bolting cutters on?

[dead_pan]

My only comment about this accident is that I am amazed how tough those windscreens are, and how bloody lucky the guys were.

I understand the 11kV cables aren't actually that strong and can be severed relatively easily e.g. if a tree fell on them. The lads who moved a set of these cables running near our property used a simple set of ratchet wire cutters (they're only c.0.5" in dia).

[Green Flash]

I'm amazed that something so apparently simple as a wirecutter can be less desirable than a software system that seems to be less than proven.
I would have thought both would be the ideal with the cutters as a minimum and a fail safe for those pesky undetected wires.
Obviously I'm missing something, why isn't it as simple as just bolting cutters on?
I used to live next door to an engineer whose job was to work out the placing of wire cutters on the Merlin. One of the biggest probs was working out the stress paths through the airframe depending on where the cutter blades were mounted. I recollect his team spent a year crunching numbers. I dont think its one of those parts of an aircraft you can test for real (unless the test pilot is willing!)

[Mogwi]

I remember a while back we had a thread about anxiety dreams among aircrew. Many contributors to the thread were surprised that they weren't the only ones who had a recurring dream about flying very low, often along a street, and always under wires. Its certainly a dream I had many times when I was flying.

And there was me thinking that I was the only one to have that dream!

mog

[Herod]

Nope, not the only one, although mine started when I left flying, following a nervous breakdown. Strange thing, the brain.

[HarryTBasher]

Interesting rumour that the crew were stunting and bunting over Chivenor earlier in the day.................

Rumours are almost always wrong, and with your experience you should know the damage you can do by posting completely unsubstantiated cr@p like this on a thread like this.

[high spirits]

Interesting rumour that the crew were stunting and bunting over Chivenor earlier in the day.................

I happen to know that they weren’t. So don’t be a massive bellend all of your life and stop making stuff up.......

[[email protected]]

A colleague has a house that overlooks Chivenor and his son is an aviation spotter - he told his dad what the Chinook was doing.

You can start with name calling if it makes you feel clever but the Catterick crash started with 'high spirits' and 'interesting flying manoeuvres' and ended in tragedy. If the lessons still haven't been learned and the wire strike was the same flight as the one my mate's lad saw then getting it out there is the best thing to do to prevent another poorly disciplined crew taking other people with them.

It may not have been connected with the wire-strike flight at all and everything may well have been squeaky clean and above board - perhaps the SI will answer those questions.

[meleagertoo]

Well I went through a single 11KvA line in a 1500lb Enstrom at 30Kts and the line just snapped with no damage whatsoever to the airframe. Stopped us dead though. Thank goodness Enstroms are so tough...
The damage to that c. 40,000lb wokka looks like much, much heavier cable so likely a triple 33KvA line plus at that angle of bank on a normal 11KvA pole line would make a catastrophic ground- tip strike almost inevitable. OK'it might have been spanning a valley - who knows, but the sawing effect of the cable suggests it was a pretty substantial one and rather higher than a normal 11KvA line.
Additionally a wirestrike that had that effect on the cockpit at that aob must have got involved with the rotorblades too so expect substantial blade damage. Is some of that visible top right in the first photo of this thread?

Either way for a wokka to get that close and personal to electrical grid pole lines (I have several hundred hours inspecting these) something wasn't going according to brief, that's for sure.

Lucky blighters!
Tough machine.

[HarryTBasher]

A colleague has a house that overlooks Chivenor and his son is an aviation spotter - he told his dad what the Chinook was doing.

You can start with name calling if it makes you feel clever but the Catterick crash started with 'high spirits' and 'interesting flying manoeuvres' and ended in tragedy. If the lessons still haven't been learned and the wire strike was the same flight as the one my mate's lad saw then getting it out there is the best thing to do to prevent another poorly disciplined crew taking other people with them.

It may not have been connected with the wire-strike flight at all and everything may well have been squeaky clean and above board - perhaps the SI will answer those questions. You should enter the above in the “Top Tenuous” category. A colleagues son who saw a Chinook near Chiv is enough for you to have it on “good authority” and then try and smear the crews who’ve been through a traumatic experience on a public forum? Embarrassing.

I assume when your “report” is proved to be the dog toffee it is you’ll apologise as publicly as you’ve slated?

I repeat - you should know better.

[high spirits]

A colleague has a house that overlooks Chivenor and his son is an aviation spotter - he told his dad what the Chinook was doing.

You can start with name calling if it makes you feel clever but the Catterick crash started with 'high spirits' and 'interesting flying manoeuvres' and ended in tragedy. If the lessons still haven't been learned and the wire strike was the same flight as the one my mate's lad saw then getting it out there is the best thing to do to prevent another poorly disciplined crew taking other people with them.

It may not have been connected with the wire-strike flight at all and everything may well have been squeaky clean and above board - perhaps the SI will answer those questions.

and when it does, you can come on and make a full apology. We do possess more than one Chinook in the UK orbat......

A pilot of your experience knows way better than to take the opinion of a ‘colleague’s son’ and chuck it up here. That’s just doubling down on the first comment about ‘stunting and bunting’.

I don’t know what the Chiv crew were doing and neither do you. All I do know is that authorised advanced handling can take place anywhere where it is deemed safe to do so. A flat airfield seems entirely reasonable to me. That doesn’t imply ill discipline as per the Catterick Puma.

[[email protected]]

So when the SI exonerates the crew I will apologise but while doubt exists (you can try and deride my source as much as you like) I stand by my comments.

You will understand that 'a pilot of my experience' doesn't put things like that on forums lightly. I have seen too many accidents in my time caused by overconfident pilots trying to show how good they are to worry about offending someone if it prevents the same happening again.

Authorised advanced handling is one thing - display manoeuvres is another.

Even in isolation, the wire-strike asks questions about operating heights unless this set of triple 11KvA was strung across a valley.

I just get the feeling you are protesting too much.

[high spirits]

So when the SI exonerates the crew I will apologise but while doubt exists (you can try and deride my source as much as you like) I stand by my comments.

You will understand that 'a pilot of my experience' doesn't put things like that on forums lightly. I have seen too many accidents in my time caused by overconfident pilots trying to show how good they are to worry about offending someone if it prevents the same happening again.

Authorised advanced handling is one thing - display manoeuvres is another.

Even in isolation, the wire-strike asks questions about operating heights unless this set of triple 11KvA was strung across a valley.

I just get the feeling you are protesting too much.

And I get the feeling you are now just embarrassed about what you wrote. Like all these events, let’s leave it to a properly constituted SI.

[[email protected]]

Which bit of 'I stand by my comments' did you not understand?

[[email protected]]

I can apologise to the wirestrike crew for the allegation of stunting and bunting at Chiv - it was a completely different crew according to CADS but the Captain's name (Chiv aircraft) didn't come as a surprise.

The location of the wirestrike is rather obvious due to the SAROPs red circle centered on it - their min height has been blocked out though................

To be fair the wires are strung across a valley but they are marked.

[Vendee]

I can apologise to the wirestrike crew for the allegation of stunting and bunting at Chiv - it was a completely different crew according to CADS but the Captain's name (Chiv aircraft) didn't come as a surprise.

The location of the wirestrike is rather obvious due to the SAROPs red circle centered on it - their min height has been blocked out though................

To be fair the wires are strung across a valley but they are marked.


(you can try and deride my source as much as you like) I stand by my comments


So much for your impeccable sources then. Quite sad really.

[[email protected]]

I have acknowledged the wirestrike aircraft was not the 'stunting' aircraft but my colleague's son has photographic evidence of the aircraft 'manoeuvring' at Chiv so my source stands.

What will be sad is if there is the same 'cowboy' culture that existed in the Puma force not so long ago.

I'm sure the SI will determine if the wirestrike aircraft was operating legally or not.

[high spirits]

I have acknowledged the wirestrike aircraft was not the 'stunting' aircraft but my colleague's son has photographic evidence of the aircraft 'manoeuvring' at Chiv so my source stands.

What will be sad is if there is the same 'cowboy' culture that existed in the Puma force not so long ago.

I'm sure the SI will determine if the wirestrike aircraft was operating legally or not.

You’ve just thrown a second crew straight under the bus. Perhaps if you have ‘evidence’ and you are that concerned, then you should report them rather than post on an anonymous public forum? To quote one of your earlier posts you are not ‘getting it out there’ by accusing crews on Pprune....

[NutLoose]

Ahhh demonstrating a Chinook to the locals... My first recollection was a certain Australian arriving at Upavon from down in the valley and then cranking it around the big house.... I seem to remember that got the phone ringing... sorry bit of a drift :)

[Vendee]

I have acknowledged the wirestrike aircraft was not the 'stunting' aircraft but my colleague's son has photographic evidence of the aircraft 'manoeuvring' at Chiv so my source stands.

What will be sad is if there is the same 'cowboy' culture that existed in the Puma force not so long ago.

I'm sure the SI will determine if the wirestrike aircraft was operating legally or not.

I really hope you are not eligible for jury service.

[[email protected]]

You’ve just thrown a second crew straight under the bus. Perhaps if you have ‘evidence’ and you are that concerned, then you should report them rather than post on an anonymous public forum? To quote one of your earlier posts you are not ‘getting it out there’ by accusing crews on PPRuNe.... This is a rumour network not a court of law but plenty of senior people read these pages - if there is nothing to see here then what is the problem?

Throwing the crew under the bus??? really? If I were still in the military I might be tempted to ring a mate or two to pass on a gypsy's warning but Pprune can fulfill the same function. far better to get someone to have a quiet word than make a formal complaint that can't be withdrawn.

I really hope you are not eligible for jury service. what a strange comment - don't you think Flight Safety is important then? If you saw a picture of an aircraft that had clearly hit very low wires, would you not ask questions of the crew? Similarly, having done plenty of 'advanced handling' as well as display manouevres, I know how easy it is to blur the boundaries between the two and let enthusiasm get the better of good judgement.

If you are flying low level in the modern military and don't assume that everyone watching has a camera then you are very naive.

[Vendee]

what a strange comment - don't you think Flight Safety is important then? If you saw a picture of an aircraft that had clearly hit very low wires, would you not ask questions of the crew? Similarly, having done plenty of 'advanced handling' as well as display manouevres, I know how easy it is to blur the boundaries between the two and let enthusiasm get the better of good judgement.

If you are flying low level in the modern military and don't assume that everyone watching has a camera then you are very naive.

I was referring to your propensity to convict/condemn without factual evidence.

[[email protected]]

I was referring to your propensity to convict/condemn without factual evidence. that's because you assume I don't have any evidence for the Chiv aircraft. The picture of the wirestrike aircraft asks far more questions, as does the removal of their min height on CADs for the legs.

However, as I said, the SI will exonerate the crew if there is nothing to criticise so why get so out of shape about a fat old crab taking an interest?

[high spirits]

that's because you assume I don't have any evidence for the Chiv aircraft. The picture of the wirestrike aircraft asks far more questions, as does the removal of their min height on CADs for the legs.

However, as I said, the SI will exonerate the crew if there is nothing to criticise so why get so out of shape about a fat old crab taking an interest?

So let’s see the evidence.....(That will hopefully be absolutely comprehensive and prove that they busted an auth and not solely consist of photos of a helicopter at a wacky angle)

Or put in a formal complaint....

Or apologise for the second time today....

[Fareastdriver]

Let he who is without guilt cast the first stone.

[[email protected]]

Still a whole lot of protesting from those who believe neither crew did anything wrong - if you are so sure, why keep going on about it?

You previously admitted that your "evidence" was wrong. Not quite so - I acknowledged the Chiv aircraft was not the wirestrike aircraft but that was after confirming that through CADs. Any photographic evidence will remain in the private domain - would you defenders of the crew really want a video posted on here?

My colleague's son (who has grown up around helicopters all his life) actually said to his dad 'Was it a display crew practising their routine?' And this is a young man who has seen a few Chinook displays.

If there is nothing to see here, stop protesting their innocence.

If there is something to see, then have a word with the crew not to be so stupid - North Devon is full of grockles all armed with phones who would like nothing better than to post some 'punchy' helicopter flying on social media.

[high spirits]

Still a whole lot of protesting from those who believe neither crew did anything wrong - if you are so sure, why keep going on about it?

Not quite so - I acknowledged the Chiv aircraft was not the wirestrike aircraft but that was after confirming that through CADs. Any photographic evidence will remain in the private domain - would you defenders of the crew really want a video posted on here?

My colleague's son (who has grown up around helicopters all his life) actually said to his dad 'Was it a display crew practising their routine?' And this is a young man who has seen a few Chinook displays.

If there is nothing to see here, stop protesting their innocence.

If there is something to see, then have a word with the crew not to be so stupid - North Devon is full of grockles all armed with phones who would like nothing better than to post some 'punchy' helicopter flying on social media.

Read post #96 again.

3 options.......

[OvertHawk]

I really hope you are not eligible for jury service.

Crab is not eligible for jury service due to things he's done in the past. A good mate told me so.

At least he thinks it might have been Crab - it certainly looked quite like him.

I think it's important to get this out there - if i'm wrong then i will apologise (sort of)

But if there's nothing to see here I'm sure Crab will not protest.

(To be clear - This is a tongue in cheek post to point out certain double standards)

[tucumseh]

I'd like to see an answer to the most pertinent post here, Distant Voice's question about the ALARP statement. From other posts it's obvious that the "reasonably practicable" bit hasn't been pursued with any vigour, with many years between seemingly ad hoc trials. Why no structured approach to 'pulling through' the technology? (It's ok, I know the answer, and it's nothing to do with money).

Meanwhile, perhaps the mods could shut down once and for all those who habitually play the man, not the ball. It's spoiling the forum. Banter is fine, but personal attacks divert from what could have been a tragedy.

Remember, 'rumours' first mooted here have explained many accidents/incidents over the years.

[Chugalug2]

I too would like to see an end to the cancelling culture on this forum. It's supposed to be for Professional Aviators (and all the others mentioned in the title). The post that tuc refers to in #105 from Distant Voice is this one (#17) :-

A 2013 paper covering the MoD Helicopter Safety Enhancement Programme stated,
There is currently no wire cutter kit developed for the Chinook and there are no known plans to develop one. The cost and timescale associated with introducing this capability suggest that an alternative means of protecting the aircraft against wire strike may be a better option. Assessment of a tablet based moving map capability is underway, which would have details of known wires and obstacles overlaid. The key to this type of system is considered to be an effective means of alerting the aircrew to the presence of wires without them having to spend prolonged periods “eyes-in”.
I hope the ODH found suitable mitigation to cover the wire strike risk when he signed off on the ALARP safety statement. DV

If fingers need to be pointed and tongues wagged wouldn't it be more productive (and professional) to consider DV's post and its Flight Safety implications? Remind me, what is the latest planned Chinook OSD?

[DODGYOLDFART]

Just out of curiosity has the wire cutting chopper been recovered yet and if so how?

[[email protected]]

Chugalug2 - I mentioned the tablet and its shortcomings earlier in the thread as I am pretty sure it is the same one foist upon the SAR Force.

We couldn't have a proper moving map because the platform was getting close to OSD and UKSAR takeover but no-one would pay the costs or do the paperwork to allow a proper integration of the tablet with the existing aircraft systems. So it ended up as a carry on device with no audio that had to be worn on a kneepad forcing more heads-in - great for avoiding wires!

How many times have we seen MOD use OSD for a reason not to add equipment to platforms and then extend the OSD again - not really in the spirit of ALARP is it?

[Chugalug2]

This could easily have been yet another tragic fatal accident thread. The Hercules was not fit for purpose as a tactical transport aircraft because the default ESP fitted into all USAF C-130s was not fitted into RAF ones, yet both fleets were expected to carry out low level tactical operations and hence be liable to ground fire. With or without tablets the Chinook is at a risk exceeding ALARP by having to routinely operate at low level avoiding numerous and assorted high tension cables.

Given their vulnerability to wire strikes, helicopters need incorporated reliable warning systems in order to avoid them. Such technology exists and should be fitted. If the MOD is unable or unwilling to do so then low level training in the wire infested UK is not acceptable and should be carried out in a more wire benign environment. Either way costs money. What isn't acceptable is it costing yet more lives in avoidable fatal accidents.

[SLXOwft]

I am irritated that due the usual parsimony and short sightedness HMG is not protecting my frequent overhead visitors (and my power supply (n.b. this last is an attempt at humour)). Oddly though I haven't heard any wokka-wokkaring for some days.

Apologies if this is mentioned above but apparently the Canuck Chinook Fs have wire stike protection fitted, so its not unknown on H-47s. See page 14 of this: A 2010 Industry Briefing given by the Canadian Director Air Requirements (http://www.defenceandsecurity.ca/UserFiles/File/2010/2010AirForceOutlook/ColRHMeiklejohnEN.pdf)

The cancelled HH-47 CSAR-X had WSPS (Wire Strike Protection System) included in its requirements.

Given the successful history of WSPS on the US Army's light to medium aircraft it should beggar belief that it hasn't been rolled out generally across military RW fleets with low level over land as part of their operating profile, Unfortunately history teaches us there will have to be multiple fatalities before anything is done.:ugh:

This 2008 study makes interesting reading.
FAA - SAFETY STUDY OF WIRE STRIKE DEVICES INSTALLED ON CIVIL AND MILITARY HELICOPTERS (http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar0825.pdf)

[NutLoose]

Well the canopy structure has been stress tested up to whatever the breaking strain of the cables were.

[MG]

apparently the Canuck Chinook Fs have wire stike protection fitted, so its not unknown on H-47s.That’s a pretty old set of slides and if you look at pictures of the CH147F there no little spikey bits underneath the chin. I guess that Mr Boeing put it into the TFD drawer.

[NutLoose]

You will find this an interesting read especially the systems to warn you now. One lights up the pylons as you approach then transmits a warning on all channels!

http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar0825.pdf

[wiggy]

If I may. ..fixed wing thicko here so have to ask..I assume these wire detection thingies work by sensing the RF emissions produced by AC HT power lines?

[NutLoose]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1596735974_b1046177ae8ca67b1a23ed9a01b0210ea1509514.jpeg

Surprised they haven’t even got protection for the power levers, anyone remember the Puma strike where the wire shoved the fuel shut off levers back?

[NutLoose]

If I may. ..fixed wing thicko here so have to ask..I assume these wire detection thingies work by sensing the RF emissions produced by AC HT power lines?


Yes and no, , the link above your post shows a load and how they work.

[Fareastdriver]

Puma strike where the wire shoved the fuel shut off levers back?

It has been well known since 1971 that a big bird will go through the windscreen and close your fuel levers.

[wiggy]

Yes and no, , the link above your post shows a load and how they work.

Thanks......

[OvertHawk]

It has been well known since 1971 that a big bird will go through the windscreen and close your fuel levers.

I recall that there was a multi-fatal S-76 loss in the GOM a few years back due to a big bird coming through the screens and taking out both throttles whilst at the same time stunning the crew. (If i further recall correctly this was just after they had changed the screens from glass to plexiglass to save money and weight, but i'm not certain of that).

[Chugalug2]

MG :-
MOD haven’t got the time nor the inclination to read about someone’s ongoing hobby horse ad nauseum.

The MOD hasn't the inclination to provide for the duty of care that the Military Covenant, not to mention the law, calls for. Military Air Safety in the UK is in the parlous state that it is because of the MOD's disinclination to do anything about reforming Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation. Both are held in check by the MOD and have been since the late 80s. Thank goodness that this thread wasn't about yet another avoidable fatal military air accident. It certainly had the makings of it and like all the others; Sea Kings, Mull, Nimrod, Hercules, Tornado, etc, predictable and predicted.

If this nation needs Air Power then it must pay for it or do without. The peacetime cost of not doing so will pale into insignificance when set against an enemy fielding Air Power itself. It will be the Battle of France once more, without the benefit of five further years to make up for not being fit for purpose or airworthy. Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation must be reformed and made independent of each other and of the MOD (the MOD itself must be reformed but who will ever manage that?).

[SLXOwft]

MG, "my bad" teaches me to check for a confirming source. Made the assumption on the naive basis this was correct as it was after the contract was signed.:O Anyone out there who can tell us why it was dropped? Given all the other Candian specific mods, many driven by the need to operate over the wide spaces of Canada far from base support, seems a bit strange to me.

Maybe it was to have been developed for the HH-47, which was cancelled around the same time. Or maybe the proximity to the radar and FLIR on the CH-147F made it too f@*&ing difficult:confused:.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/282x326/ch_147fnose_a1844bf16068f373eb20f39fb8259448c598a375.jpg
Source: Vertical

[Pauljw]

At this point of time ( unless anyone knows what has happened with the wire strike ? )
Well We do not know .
I am more of a lurker on here , but Chugalug always gets a hard time over safety issues , Why ?
I can understand in wartime risks are taken and always have been , there will always be risks in anything We do and more so in aviation , it’s a case of reducing the risks in training and peacetime , although not an easy task .
But as always the MOD want to save money from their budget and there is many instances where they have saved the money , lives have been lost numerous times , for the want of updating systems or new technology.
Stay safe .

kind regards to all .

Paul

[NutLoose]

It amazes me that with the hazards of wire strikes known, new helicopters coming to the market do not have a Wire protection facility built in. You think the various authorities would make them mandatory.

That’s like buying a car without airbags and one does wonder if the manufacturer could be liable for deaths that could have been saved by such devices.


..

[Master of None]

Gents & Crab, the aircraft was flown back last night. I’ve just looked at it in the hangar the damage is superficial now the windscreens have been replaced. The OSI being conducted at Stn level will discover what lessons there are to learn but at this time it appears to be a gap that had developed in the move from paper to electronic mapping. But let’s wait shall we...
As for what I was doing at Chivenor we planned and authorised a period of GH during a gap in a longer sortie. We practised the exercises that we fly by night during the Combat Ready Captain workup, guess what Crab the aircraft’s capabilities have moved on in the decades since you were a SH Pilot. I’ve seen the photos Josh took and can understand how they’d look exciting to a child son of a SAR pilot. The inference to Catterick is interesting, that’s the VERY reason we train our ‘youngsters’ to fly these manoeuvres; so they, when tempted, know how to do them safely and therefore avoid the tragic outcome seen there. As for the personal implication (I’m not surprised), I’ve actually grown up a bit in the more than 25 years since we last flew together! You should try it.

[FODPlod]

As Master of None says:

Forces News: Chinook Flies From Welsh Field After Forced Landing (https://www.forces.net/news/chinook-flies-welsh-field-after-forced-landing) (Includes video)

A Chinook helicopter has flown away from a field in Wales after being forced to land there last week...

[NutLoose]

I take it the wire seen in the film is the one previously hit but now replaced.

[Evalu8ter]

MoN - Glad to hear the cab's back OK. The SI will make for essential reading, but let's give the team time and space to do their job. On a personal level I will be very interested if further low level mitigation is recommended via sensor (unlikely given he costs, though it would be a significant step in reducing the DVE operating risk as well), tablet (possible - especially if it's a PED with zero integration - again…) or, most likely, extra restriction and supervision. Perhaps we could re-brigade those Gazelles from NI to the Sqns for Wires Recce purposes again!!! Reading between the lines, I've probably flown with both you and Crab; you're both professional aviators but now exist in quite different swim lanes. There's a clear desire on Crab's part to prevent the needless loss of airframe or life, but, perhaps, it's from a perspective where the view is somewhat obscured. There, who said I couldn't 'do' fluffy!!!!

[Distant Voice]

On a personal level I will be very interested if further low level mitigation is recommended

I will be interested to see what mitigation the ODH had in place at the time of the accident, and did it reduce the risk to ALARP.

DV

[DuncanDoenitz]

Forgive me; I don't have the perspective (or imperatives) of a flight-crew, but ISTR a few facts from my Chinook Maintainer's course in the '90s:

1. In the event of penetration by a projectile, the Cobra system will fill the fuel tanks with flame-retardent before the projectile can leave an exit wound.
2. The major transmision gearboxes have 3 independent oil systems. In the event of triple-failure, the gearboxes will run dry for an hour.

MoN mentions that, after windshield replacement, the damage to the subject aircraft was appears to be superficial. Given Vertol's/Boeing's attention to survivability on the rest of the airframe, is it reasonable to consider that it doesn't need wirecutters? Certainly, there might be a tendency for an LOH to get catapulted back 2-counties in the event of a wirestrike, but the mass of a Chinook, with a suitably-resilient cockpit frame, is perhaps a different matter?

[Chugalug2]

Distant Voice Post 17 :-

A 2013 paper covering the MoD Helicopter Safety Enhancement Programme stated,

There is currently no wire cutter kit developed for the Chinook and there are no known plans to develop one. The cost and timescale associated with introducing this capability suggest that an alternative means of protecting the aircraft against wire strike may be a better option. Assessment of a tablet based moving map capability is underway, which would have details of known wires and obstacles overlaid. The key to this type of system is considered to be an effective means of alerting the aircrew to the presence of wires without them having to spend prolonged periods “eyes-in”.

I hope the ODH found suitable mitigation to cover the wire strike risk when he signed off on the ALARP safety statement.DV

Distant Voice Post 123 :-


"On a personal level I will be very interested if further low level mitigation is recommended"

I will be interested to see what mitigation the ODH had in place at the time of the accident, and did it reduce the risk to ALARP.

DV

Keep at it DV. The answer is known and will eventually be revealed (it always is!). Rather reminds me of the Fawlty Towers Round of Drinks running joke :-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh5Pm1CnDxo

[Two's in]

Some interesting discussion here, but you have to look at the whole picture to assess the risk:

1. There will always be unmarked wires - period. So location systems relying on the position of marked wires will always have a vulnerability. Also when operating low level there shouldn't be too much taking your interest inside the cockpit for any length of time, so the 6 P's are critical for this (see point 4).
2. Helicopters have these really cool things called Pitch Change Links or Rods just below the rotor head. If any wire makes it up the cabin roof to this area you are going to have a really bad day. It doesn't matter how big or heavy the aircraft is, these are an accessible and deadly point of catastrophe. This is why you need cutters or some form of deflection away from this area.
3. The type of wires in this accident (11KVa strung at about 30' or less) cause the majority of wire strikes. The poles are often in the trees, the wires turn green soon after hanging and the distance between poles is irregular depending on the terrain/topography. If you regularly fly low level and don't anticipate or mitigate this hazard, your risk score went up considerably.
4. Before training low level, (when possible) it makes a great deal of sense to do a slow, medium height route recce to clear the hazards before getting your adrenaline fill at 120 Knots and 15 feet.
5. Operationally, you may be on your own in terms of wire and hazard mapping if you are in an distant or unknown area, but on operations we have a higher risk level not necessarily acceptable when training.

Low level flying is an operating environment that demands complete preparation, full attention and situational awareness. Hazard mapping systems don't change any of that and wire cutters will only save your life after you've got it terribly wrong in the first place. I'm fully supportive of both of these measures, but they are fully effective only when, as professional aviators, we have taken all the preventative planning and operating measures we can before descending low level.

[Chugalug2]

Systems that tell you where the wires are, only if you have already told them where the wires are, bring the words fireguards and chocolate to mind, especially if you didn't know where they were in the first place. Similarly systems that tell you where the wires are as long as they are live fall into much the same category. Which leaves systems that can tell you where the wires are even if you didn't know where they are, and do so whether live or not. Such systems exist (witness the link in Nutloose's #108) :-

http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar0825.pdf

They have the advantage of working anywhere in the world, using laser beams (which no doubt creates some operational restraints). Nonetheless that would appear to be the best solution. They can be fitted into any low flying aircraft, rotary or otherwise. If we trial off the shelf systems already in use, incorporating them according to the regs, and not double the cost by modifying them to uneconomic levels, isn't that the way to go?

I see that tuc tells us the technology was here back in the 1980's...

[RAFEngO74to09]

Chinook fixed - for one trip at least.

Video in 4/4 - just banter !

At 00:15: Young Pilot: "I'm not sure about this - you used 6 whole rolls of bodge tape you say ?"

SNCO: "Yes Sir - it will be fine - it'll do a trip - no problem."

00:24: Pilot: "Hmmmmm - OK then !"

Wg Cdr on left thinks bubble: "Glad he's the one signing for it"

https://twitter.com/RAF_Odiham/status/1291671878826950659

[kiwi grey]

I take it the wire seen in the film is the one previously hit but now replaced.

If so, it looks like it's been replaced by a span of ABC (Aerial Bundled Conductor): three individually insulated phases twisted into a single bundle with a weather-resistant insulative outside covering.
This is easier and cheaper to put up, requires no cross arms on the poles and is said to have 'reduced visual impact' on the environment - i.e. is harder to see. I'm not sure that this latter feature is such a good thing from the point of view of a passing helo pilot.

[John Eacott]

There has been a fair amount of discussion about wirestrikes, avoidance and results. I stuffed up many years ago and turned a perfectly serviceable Bell 206L into a cabriolet, but survived to share a few insights.

Essentially I had the inevitable list of contributory causes, but having been distracted from my pre planned stop point on a low level film job, I saw the wires at the last moment and hoicked back on the cyclic to clear a string of three wires along a crossing road. Expecting to then collect them with the tail I checked forward just in time to capture the top wire with the toe of one skid, which pulled us significantly nose down.

So far nose down that I was hanging forward in my straps: time slows down. Full aft cyclic wasn’t helping so there was a conscious decision to pull pitch and try to break the wire, which eventually parted with a massive and grateful “twang” followed by a leap skyward. Unfortunately followed by the tail boom being severed by the blades; full aft cyclic can have that effect.

I must have rolled off the throttle instinctively as we didn’t spin, but after reaching the apogee of our upward leap the ground did come up rather quickly on the way back down and full collective wasn’t slowing us down in the autorotation. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing, giving sufficient strength to snap the collective which then became surplus to requirements.

Luck was with us as on impact the MGB, roof and blades all departed to the left leaving us more or less sitting straight on the ground and able to get out of the wreckage, albeit with some injuries.

The lesson(s) learned?

No matter how good the recce, something can always distract the driver especially when single pilot. In this case a school bus.

Think and act, a quick decision can be life or death. Rolling off the throttle saved us from spinning; the engine was undamaged and put back into service!

Wear the right PPE. I failed to have my helmet on for stupid reasons (not uncommon in civvie flying 35 years ago) and was lucky. I had, however, paid for and certified a strong point for the cameraman’s quick release harness which saved his life. Normal ops for those days was to secure the harness to the seat belt anchor points which weren’t (and aren’t) certified for the lateral pull.

Wire cutters would definitely have prevented the wire from trapping the skid/crosstube. The economics of the day didn’t support them for me but for a military aircraft in the low level environment today it is almost criminal not to protect the crew and aircraft with wire strike protection.

Kudos to the crew and Chinook for a safe landing in this incident :ok:

[RetHar]

PROMOTION INEVITABLE THEN...

[Chugalug2]

PROMOTION INEVITABLE THEN...
For putting short term financial savings consistently ahead of safety? Sadly history proves your dispiriting comment as only too true. Unless of course I have misunderstood its cryptic meaning, in which case my apologies. Perhaps you might care to elucidate?

[cavuman1]

John Eacott: for your candor, calmness, and bravery, you have earned a well-deserved "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie - Au, Au, Au!" I wish I could touch your shoulder for good luck! An excellent and revelatory tale, Sir.

- Ed :ok:

[Distant Voice]

The economics of the day didn’t support them for me but for a military aircraft in the low level environment today it is almost criminal not to protect the crew and aircraft with wire strike protection.


I believe it is criminal, but no action will be taken if the Moray Firth Tornado collision case is anything to go by. In this case the SI board stated at 1.4.6.605b (5) of their report that the risk of collision was not ALARP, and whilst RA 1210 makes it clear that ADHs are accountable for ensuring that systems are ALARP and Tolerable and the validity of the argument should be tested by the courts in the event of an accident, no such action was taken. To make matters worse the Lord Advocate of Scotland decided, after consultation (collaboration?) with the MOD, that no Fatal Accident Inquiry would be carried out. An FAI was the one way that the validity of the ALARP argument could be tested.

Although the H-C report is much talked about nothing has changed when it comes to accountability.

DV

[[email protected]]

Sorry, been away for a few days where the slow pace of life is matched by the internet speed and connectivity.

MoN - not sure how you got to see the lad’s photos but his dad has viewed the video and said it’s not much more than wingovers and positioning turns so please accept my apologies.

[Master of None]

so please accept my apologies.[/QUOTE]

Accepted and thank you.

[MightyGem]

There has been a fair amount of discussion about wirestrikes, avoidance and results. I stuffed up many years ago and turned a perfectly serviceable Bell 206L into a cabriolet,
Flying an Australian Army 206(while on an exchange posting) on exercise up on the Cape York peninsular, the one in front of me had a wire strike. Classic hidden pole with a single wire.

The wire went through the narrow gap between the top of the cutter and the disc and severed the pitch change rods. The aircraft did a gentle wingover, leading us to believe it was an intentional manoeuvre....until it hit the ground.

The pilot died of his head injuries, the commander was uninjured IIRC and the rear seat pax had a fractured femur.

Wire cutters aren't always the answer.