SEP PPL any good for RAF career..?

[scifi]

Hi guys, I wonder if the RAF still use the PPL as the first step for RAF Flying Officers.
If you already have a PPL, that must be worth a couple of rungs on the job ladder.
.

[charliegolf]

It may or may not benefit you personally in the early stages of RAF flying training, but it'll get you no bonus points at all in all that goes before the flying starts. Anybody can fly a 'plane, and very many could probably fly a Hawk. That's very different to being able to be a military pilot.

CG

[MPN11]

Having a PPL didn't help me get though RN Flying Grading. As CG notes, basic poling isn't what the RAF needs, and I recognise [in later life] that I doubt I would have been much use in the driving seat to any Military airframe.

[chevvron]

You're an RAF Officer first and a pilot second; show no aptitude for Officer training and a PPL will do you no good at all; in any case, the selection tests may indicate you're better suited to a branch other than aircrew/pilot (maybe navigator or WSO).

[Mogwi]

The best thing you could do is not mention your PPL. Military flying training is very different from civilian flying training in that you will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

As a PPL you only need to be able to take your granny for a flight and not kill her!

Best way is to be an attentive student and learn with no pre-conceptions. You may well have formed some bad habits that are fine as a PPL but will get you killed in a trice when playing with the big boys. Your experience may help you initially but keep your PPL under your hat and let people think that you are just a good learner. You will very soon find that the training will become the most demanding (and most satisfying!) thing that you have done to date.

Bon chance!

Mog

[H Peacock]

You will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

The RAF stopped letting you get near any limits several years ago Mog; duty of care or risk adversity I believe!!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

The best thing you could do is not mention your PPL. Military flying training is very different from civilian flying training in that you will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

As a PPL you only need to be able to take your granny for a flight and not kill her!

Best way is to be an attentive student and learn with no pre-conceptions. You may well have formed some bad habits that are fine as a PPL but will get you killed in a trice when playing with the big boys. Your experience may help you initially but keep your PPL under your hat and let people think that you are just a good learner. You will very soon find that the training will become the most demanding (and most satisfying!) thing that you have done to date.

Bon chance!

Mog
Keeping it "under your hat" is a dangerous game - I know of someone who did that and a) it's bloody obvious you've flown before to any QFI with half a brain, b) there's usually a box on an arrival form that includes "previous flying experience" and c) lying about or lying by omission can be viewed as a serious integrity issue. The above did not go well in the long term for said student even though he appeared to be a rockstar for about a week...

A PPL doesn't hurt, but doesn't benefit imho. Save the money, do a few hours to make sure you can actually do it and aren't a total Muppet behind a stick and throttle.

[Hot 'n' High]

You're an RAF Officer first and a pilot second.......

Absolutely! And as Mogwi says, just keep it under your hat until asked (as pba_target notes and, I suspect, Mogwi meant!!!) - and, even then, don't make a big thing about it. As for, "worth a couple of rungs on the job ladder"????! Erm, welcome to the real world!!!!!! It might give you a slight help practically in the first few days but far more capable pilots-to-be/weapon system professionals may not even have touched an aircraft!

"Weapon system professionals" cos that's what they are more and more - 10% flying 90% tactical systems management - others may adjust that figure but I'll not be far off. More and more it will be plan a mission, rehearse a mission, revise a mission and then debrief a mission - all in Sims. Flying the Mission? Unless a Truckie, (apols to all Truckies), a small part of the business of delivering military capability on target!

Don't mean to sound "-"ve scifi. I've never held a Mil licence, but spent almost 40 years with the b*ggers and flown commercially myself outside the mob! Pains me to say this, but much respect to them all! Watching a Stovie (Sea Harrier) pilot try and sign out his jet for his first night Deck Landing - sobering!!! The guy could write more clearly after 10 pints in the bar. But, as others have noted, the days of Lord Flashheart have long gone! But still worth a watch!!!!!

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrJOtxNuiFfoBoArwJ3Bwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTB0ZTgxN3Q0BG NvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNwaXZz?p=Lord+Flashheart&type=__alt__ddc_linuxmint_com&hsimp=yhs-linuxmint&hspart=ddc&ei=UTF-8&fr=yhs-ddc-linuxmint#id=2&vid=7f858006f67641733719d79e836b775f&action=view

And all the best btw, hope your career plans work out. Just prepare your liver for it!!! :ok: Toodle-pip! H 'n' H

[Vortex Hoop]

The best thing you could do is not mention your PPL. Military flying training is very different from civilian flying training in that you will be expected to be able to operate a complex aircraft safely, to its limits in possibly hazardous conditions.

As a PPL you only need to be able to take your granny for a flight and not kill her!

Best way is to be an attentive student and learn with no pre-conceptions. You may well have formed some bad habits that are fine as a PPL but will get you killed in a trice when playing with the big boys. Your experience may help you initially but keep your PPL under your hat and let people think that you are just a good learner. You will very soon find that the training will become the most demanding (and most satisfying!) thing that you have done to date.

Bon chance!

Mog
Fully agree with this. I did a PPL/IR and some hour building the year before I went through EFT and it spoiled my flying in more ways than one. It gave me a false sense of confidence at Biggin Hill and IOT, making me think I was gods gift to flying when I wasn’t. I had some terrible habits ingrained which I had to waste time at EFT unlearning: poor T scan, poor lookout and box circuits when I should have been learning oval circuits. The ab initio guys on my course were streamed fast jet while I was sent helicopters. So Buyer Beware!

Loved your book Mog! (Better than Sharkey’s!!)

[Two's in]

...The ab initio guys on my course were streamed fast jet while I was sent helicopters. So Buyer Beware!...


So what you're saying is your superior flying skills, winning personality and rugged good looks were finally recognized?

[HarryTims]

Those are the main pre-requisites for the rotary life, yes. Plus you don't have to spend the other time outside of your 15 hour flying month self abusing in a Mess in Northern Scotland or North Wales.

[Fareastdriver]

To be a fast jet pilot the best thing you can do is buy the fastest games computer that you can afford matched wit a 52'' TV. Then the top flying simulator games and have some big relatives heaving you computer chair around whilst you are playing them.

That's all you will be doing.

[charliegolf]

To be a fast jet pilot the best thing you can do is buy the fastest games computer that you can afford matched wit a 52'' TV. Then the top flying simulator games and have some big relatives heaving you computer chair around whilst you are playing them.

That's all you will be doing.

If you have no fat relatives, do you have to be a helicopter pilot?

CG

[Fortissimo]

Keeping prior experience under your hat is not sensible. As a QFI, there is nothing more frustrating than teaching people stuff they already know, which is a waste of everyone's time and resources. If you need to train bad habits out of people, so be it - I had to go through the process myself when I did the QFI course, having drifted into using a couple of 'unusual' techniques on the front line! If you think you are God's gift to aviation and you are not, it will quickly become apparent to all concerned, and you will either get over it or find yourself following a different path.

And the one place you really do need to admit to prior experience is as part of the OASC aptitude testing. If you were to omit to mention your PPL your aptitude scores would give a false picture which may give you an unfair advantage in what is a very competitive selection and where 1 extra point can make all the difference. If that information subsequently comes to light, you can expect your service to be terminated on the basis that you lied to secure employment. There are plenty of young people who have the required honesty and integrity who will happily take your place.

On the other hand, the Service needs to recognise when people have valid experience and adjust accordingly. One of my FJ colleagues had joined with 800+ hours of operational experience (counter-insurgency) in Africa. The rigidity inherent in the FT system at the time meant he was required to start from scratch at BFT which, not surprisingly, he waltzed through. Nobody had the sense to spend e.g. 10 hours on a full assessment and then decide on what training he actually needed.

[ShyTorque]

On the other hand, the Service needs to recognise when people have valid experience and adjust accordingly. One of my FJ colleagues had joined with 800+ hours of operational experience (counter-insurgency) in Africa. The rigidity inherent in the FT system at the time meant he was required to start from scratch at BFT which, not surprisingly, he waltzed through. Nobody had the sense to spend e.g. 10 hours on a full assessment and then decide on what training he actually needed.

The one who had previously flown the DC3 in Africa and later became the Boss of Yorkshire UAS? If so, he and I went through OASC selection together.

[Dan Winterland]

As an ex QFI from a while back, I would say a PPL is not a benefit. You will have many 'bad habits' to lose before becoming effective military pilot. Gliding - now that's a good start!

[Hot 'n' High]

As an ex QFI from a while back, I would say a PPL is not a benefit. You will have many 'bad habits' to lose before becoming effective military pilot. Gliding - now that's a good start!

TBH, it's like any potentially "appropriate experience" in any career. If asked for the info or as and when appropriate to give the info, mention the fact - as just that - a fact. Others will then decide just how much benefit, or otherwise, that specific experience is to the individual & organisation as training progresses. Let them process/and assess things knowing the fact. Just be very wary of assuming previous experience will stand you in good stead!

I've interviewed people who, while on paper looked good, seemed to have the right experience - but insisted on telling me just how darn good they were! Did they get the job? Shown the door as I realised, no matter how good they were, (a) I'd have a riot on my hands as they'd seriously pi$$ the rest of the staff off in no time and (b), slightly more worrying, I'd probably be being had up for murder within a few weeks (if not a few days)!!!!!

Besides, really good people don't need to tell you how good they are .... true ability soon shines though ... just as total inability does!!! Now, have I mentioned just what an amazing guy good old H 'n' H is yet???? No? Well, take a seat and let me begin.................... :ok:

Toodle-pip! H 'n' H

[ex-fast-jets]

PPL is a good start - many of us did so courtesy, in my case, of an RAF Scholarship.

But if you assume that you know nothing, that is an even better start.

"A couple of rungs on the job ladder" - forget it. You are deluding yourself.

Arrive - be honest - be humble - and be prepared to learn.

If you ever think that you know everything - or even anything at the beginning - then you are destined for a painful fall.

Good luck - hope it all goes well for you.

[pr00ne]

scifi.

No

[Darkmouse]

I've signed up to Pprune purely to counter some of the views above.

Ex-fast-jets above has hit the nail on the head. It's not a bad a start at all, provided that you are prepared to turn up to EFT ready to park your prior knowledge and learn to fly the way your QFI's want you to fly, not the way you think it should be done. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

What makes me say this? I was one of two guys on my IOT intake to already have a PPL. Neither he nor I struggled to make the change to military flying, but we both took the view that we were starting from scratch. He was on a different EFT course to me, so I don't know exactly how he got on, but he is now a very accomplished SH pilot.

I won't give too much of my own subsequent career away, as I suspect I am very easy to identify, but with something in the region of 65 hours under my belt before starting EFT, I was able to skip or combine quite a few of the earlier EFT exercise, such as combining EoC's 1+2, C+D 1+2 etc, and finished EFT with a considerable chunk of negative FE (hours I didn't have to fly). I think I had a considerable advantage over my peers for at least the first half of EFT. That advantage had all but disappeared by basic flying training when things get trickier, but it was certainly useful.

I wouldn't listen to the nay sayers above, flying is great fun, and a PPL is a gentle and enjoyable introduction to it. Turn up to EFT ready to start from scratch, with no ego and a desire to learn and you'll be good to go 👍.

[muppetofthenorth]

I've signed up to Pprune purely to counter some of the views above.

Ex-fast-jets above has hit the nail on the head. It's not a bad a start at all, provided that you are prepared to turn up to EFT ready to park your prior knowledge and learn to fly the way your QFI's want you to fly, not the way you think it should be done. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

What makes me say this? I was one of two guys on my IOT intake to already have a PPL. Neither he nor I struggled to make the change to military flying, but we both took the view that we were starting from scratch. He was on a different EFT course to me, so I don't know exactly how he got on, but he is now a very accomplished SH pilot.

I won't give too much of my own subsequent career away, as I suspect I am very easy to identify, but with something in the region of 65 hours under my belt before starting EFT, I was able to skip or combine quite a few of the earlier EFT exercise, such as combining EoC's 1+2, C+D 1+2 etc, and finished EFT with a considerable chunk of negative FE (hours I didn't have to fly). I think I had a considerable advantage over my peers for at least the first half of EFT. That advantage had all but disappeared by basic flying training when things get trickier, but it was certainly useful.

I wouldn't listen to the nay sayers above, flying is great fun, and a PPL is a gentle and enjoyable introduction to it. Turn up to EFT ready to start from scratch, with no ego and a desire to learn and you'll be good to go 👍.
None of that is wrong, but the point is that the answer to both of OP's questions is no.

You didn't get selected because you had a PPL. You got selected and had a PPL. That's different.

[tmmorris]

. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

not unlike how being an ex-cadet is a great help in showing commitment, as long as you shut up about it during training and expect to be taught all over again.

[Hot 'n' High]

not unlike how being an ex-cadet is a great help in showing commitment, as long as you shut up about it during training and expect to be taught all over again.

Had a wonderful example of "prior experience" slightly backfiring when I did my AIB (Admiralty Interview Board) when getting my Commission from the Ranks. The older Special Duties guys and gals I don't think did a full AIB (IIR) but, if you conned 'em early in your career as I managed to, you had to do the usual AIB along with all the Civvie hopefuls and take your chance. For the Practical Leadership element, all us Matelots were in one team with about 4 or 5 other teams made up of the Civvies. Note, this was back when we actually had a Navy and so had to recruit quite a few people for each Dartmouth Entry.

As most of us Matelots knew each other, and so had been doing some serious drinking the night before as a "Team Bonding Exercise", we were a bit shabby that morning. However, this simply aided our guile and ingenuity and, while the Civvie groups were falling off planks, dropping barrels into "bottomless" chasms and being eaten by hungry crocodiles and such like, we finished every single exercise and completed them well ahead of time whereas the Civvie groups generally failed miserably (not an issue as the Staff were looking for Leadership potential I guess).

After it was all over, we all got taken to one side and were severely reprimanded by a very grumpy set of AIB Staff for making it look too easy and, especially, for showing the Civvies up!!!!!! They even accused us of not taking it seriously which, erm, I guess we weren't really! Ooops! :ok:

[Brakes to Park]

Had a wonderful example of "prior experience" slightly backfiring when I did my AIB (Admiralty Interview Board) when getting my Commission from the Ranks. The older Special Duties guys and gals I don't think did a full AIB (IIR) but, if you conned 'em early in your career as I managed to, you had to do the usual AIB along with all the Civvie hopefuls and take your chance. For the Practical Leadership element, all us Matelots were in one team with about 4 or 5 other teams made up of the Civvies. Note, this was back when we actually had a Navy and so had to recruit quite a few people for each Dartmouth Entry.

As most of us Matelots knew each other, and so had been doing some serious drinking the night before as a "Team Bonding Exercise", we were a bit shabby that morning. However, this simply aided our guile and ingenuity and, while the Civvie groups were falling off planks, dropping barrels into "bottomless" chasms and being eaten by hungry crocodiles and such like, we finished every single exercise and completed them well ahead of time whereas the Civvie groups generally failed miserably (not an issue as the Staff were looking for Leadership potential I guess).

After it was all over, we all got taken to one side and were severely reprimanded by a very grumpy set of AIB Staff for making it look too easy and, especially, for showing the Civvies up!!!!!! They even accused us of not taking it seriously which, erm, I guess we weren't really! Ooops! :ok:

Wow I’m glad I pulled up my sandbag to read that one.

[Hot 'n' High]

Wow I’m glad I pulled up my sandbag to read that one.

Sorry for the slight thread-creep!!!! :\

[just another jocky]

I've signed up to Pprune purely to counter some of the views above.

Ex-fast-jets above has hit the nail on the head. It's not a bad a start at all, provided that you are prepared to turn up to EFT ready to park your prior knowledge and learn to fly the way your QFI's want you to fly, not the way you think it should be done. I also suspect that having a PPL demonstrates a solid commitment to, and a passion for aviation at OASC.

What makes me say this? I was one of two guys on my IOT intake to already have a PPL. Neither he nor I struggled to make the change to military flying, but we both took the view that we were starting from scratch. He was on a different EFT course to me, so I don't know exactly how he got on, but he is now a very accomplished SH pilot.

I won't give too much of my own subsequent career away, as I suspect I am very easy to identify, but with something in the region of 65 hours under my belt before starting EFT, I was able to skip or combine quite a few of the earlier EFT exercise, such as combining EoC's 1+2, C+D 1+2 etc, and finished EFT with a considerable chunk of negative FE (hours I didn't have to fly). I think I had a considerable advantage over my peers for at least the first half of EFT. That advantage had all but disappeared by basic flying training when things get trickier, but it was certainly useful.

I wouldn't listen to the nay sayers above, flying is great fun, and a PPL is a gentle and enjoyable introduction to it. Turn up to EFT ready to start from scratch, with no ego and a desire to learn and you'll be good to go 👍.

This!

As a current QFI, this is spot on.

[scifi]

Thanks for all the diverse replies I have had so far... Not too sure what an EFT is though.
In our Cessna owners group, we have had three pilots who needed the PPL plus more hours to attempt to
start a Commercial Airline Career.. Quite how their efforts are working out post Covid-19, I have not yet found out.
All I wanted to know was if the PPL is studied in the RAF, for such things as Air Law. Navigation, Metrology etc.
.

[tmmorris]

EFT = Elementary Flying Training, the first 'hurdle'. I’ll get shot down for this but it’s similar to PPL plus different navigation techniques, formation and aerobatics. And to a higher standard/stricter tolerance (maybe in some ways closer to CPL therefore).

Stuff you learn for the exams won’t be wrong, but be prepared to study it all over again in more depth for more exams. You won’t get any credit.

The other way round, though, if you qualify as an RAF pilot then conversion to a PPL or CPL is pretty straightforward, and there are RAF Flying Clubs to help you achieve that.

[beamer]

When I joined a long time ago I had a PPL with about seventy hours including some rudimentary aerobatics. Most of my contemporaries at Linton had been in the UAS and were streets ahead because of the training they had received and they were far more comfortable in the service environment than I was in that first couple of years. All that being said, one lad on my course with zero flying experience upon entry went on to fly Jaguar and Tornado. I seem to remember the old adage PAD for preparation, application and dedication - hack that and a PPL is unnecessary !

[Parson]

Out of interest, what are the 'bad habits' that PPLs have?

[jayteeto]

Where do I start?
First, you don’t do formation any more and EFT is nowhere near a CPL these days.
Bad habits include flying on instruments. Poor lookout techniques. R/T of varying standards.
GOOD habits/points. Ground school often much better, tech knowledge, less prone to airsickness, preparation (when you pay for flying you prepare more).
This is generalisation. We have a way to do things, adapt to our way and life is good. Fight it and do your own thing, you are going to struggle. The system is designed to take you from zero to hero, go with the flow

[BEagle]

Is a PPL any help towards an RAF career? Well, I would say "That depends...."

Some 50+ years ago, like many hundreds of others, I had an RAF Scholarship. As well as a place at RAFC, this included a Special Flying Award of 30 hours of PPL training (generous parents paid for the other 5 and I had my PPL before I held a driving licence).

However, training was ONLY conducted at schools which had been approved by CFS, so the training was to a known standard. It was an excellent course on which I flew 15 hrs solo. The aircraft were brand new Cessna 150s from Reims and the course included an unseen qualifying cross-country solo trip with 2 intermediate landings at aerodromes I'd never previously visited.

The next time I flew a solo cross-country landaway wasn't until 8 years later when I took a Hunter from Brawdy to Leuchars and the next time I flew an aircraft as new as our Cessnas wasn't until 1980 when Dunsfold was building new Hawks for Chivenor.

When I was at Wellesbourne Mountford once, an RAF Tutor landed, shortly followed by another. Upon investigation, this was someone on an EFT course doing a PPL Qualifying Cross-Country, but the RAF's idea of a solo Q X-C involved the student being shadowed by a QFI in another aircraft....

These days there's precious little solo at EFT; it was bad enough at the Brize Flying Club when we were seeing TriStar co-pilots who'd flown a complete tour having to top up their PIC time to qualify for CPL application by hours in our PA28s.

The main advantage of a PPL is that pilots will have gained a lot of solo consolidation. We taught 'point and power' and 'standard closing angle' at the Flying Club, so hopefully anyone who went on to join the RAF after time with us will have found military techniques second nature.

So in answer to the question, it really depends on the quality of PPL training. But solo consolidation is an undeniable benefit, in my opinion.

[just another jocky]

... Not too sure what an EFT is though.

That is something you would need to cure in order to get over the first hurdle......selection. You need to have a decent working knowledge of the RAF and the training system in order to be selected to be an officer and trainee pilot, but having a PPL will show some dedication which will be a positive.

A PPL can help, without doubt, especially in the early days to around solo consolidation but after that, as you progress through the advanced GH phase and onto the applied phases (IF, Nav etc) it loses its benefit and those who are more natural pilots will shine through. It can definitely help you get through the early trips, but as has been alluded to, depending on how you have been taught in your PPL you may have to unlearn some things and shed certain behaviour patterns which may prove harder than you think.

Personally I prefer to work with a blank canvas, by that I mean a student who has not been taught to fly before but that's just my opinion.

[typerated]

My experience is gliding is much more useful than powered/PPL as a first step.
Much more head out of the cockpit required where flying the aeroplane is only a (small) part of the task at hand.

[Dan Winterland]

My experience is gliding is much more useful than powered/PPL as a first step.
Much more head out of the cockpit required where flying the aeroplane is only a (small) part of the task at hand.

As a QFI, if you had a student with gliding experience, you had struck gold. Good stick and rudder skills, could fly attitudes without an AI, head always out of the cockpit - and teaching PFLs was a doddle!

[rolling20]

During my UAS time, we had bods on flying scholarships and cadetships. It made one feel a little disadvantaged. However the QFIs assured me that those who came with no flying experience, soon caught up with the people who had already got flying experience. From my own observations, those who didn't have any previous flying experience did rather well in their subsequent service careers. I daresay at EFT, there were those who had no flying experience also and would have been disheartened at the X UAS bods who had over 100+ hours under their belts.

[Darkmouse]

Prior flying experience Vs non is certainly taken into account when deciding upon how EFT students have performed. You would expect an ex-UAS member to be excellent, or someone with significant other prior experience, and their performance and future potential would be gauged accordingly.

Of the three streamed FJ from my EFT, 1 had UAS experience, one had zero experience, and then there was me - I'm certain the chap with zero prior experience was picked before me, and rightly so.

Basically none of the above routes either advantage or disadvantage you when it comes to a streaming board. My personal view is that having flown before was an advantage to me and me alone - at the streaming board though, I would probably have been compared to people with zero experience who performed to the same standard and they would have been rightly picked before me.

If someone is in a position to learn to fly before they attempt to join the RAF, why shouldn't they? I've wanted to fly since I was a very small boy and I was lucky enough that I could do that before I joined the RAF, although joining the RAF was always the goal.

What I'm trying to say is that flying is great in whatever form you do it, whether it's off your own back, or starting form scratch in the military - either way, if you make it to an EFT course, you will be judged on your ability and potential fairly at that stage, taking your prior experience, or lack of, into account. The rest is irrelevant.

[The...Bird]

What is the EFT course breakdown today?
I've heard it's quite low hours...

[Specaircrew]

Way back in 1972 my scholarship PPL may well have helped me scrape through Biggin Hill as it no doubt showed that I had a keen interest in a career as a pilot and had some basic pilot aptitude. Having got through IOT at Henlow the RAF then decided to save money by waiving my Chipmunk flying at Church Fenton and 'up-coursed' me straight onto the JP at Linton! That was a very steep learning curve and my flying club habits did me no favours. 37 years later I was still flying for the RAF when I retired not having killed myself or anyone else so all's well that ends well. ;-)

[Dan Winterland]

37 years later I was still flying for the RAF when I retired not having killed myself or anyone else so all's well that ends well. ;-)

Frightened a few though!

[BEagle]

That was a very steep learning curve and my flying club habits did me no favours.

Neither did they at Valley on the Hunter!

All OK with you these days, Mate?