Jobs maybe ? B777/A330 crews

[BNEA320]

Well the world has changed. Many airlines were struggling before Corona. $800 return fares from all ports in Australia to EU were common. Almost bought TG tickets BNE/BKK/MXP return for school holidays in June 2020. Only catch was connection on way home at BKK, meant overnight.

With the world changing, employment contracts will change as well.

The old way of thinking about employment, may also have to change.

Just received a brief description from a venture capital mate, of a very interesting proposal about a new medium haul airline operation, that needs someone experienced, like maybe a retired airline CEO to help kick start it, using their contacts & more than the funding in place.

Claim was they had AUD$1m in place so far.

Idea is to use parked aircraft & crews to start an ULCC or LCC operation, more like a charter operation, where when demand is high, more flights are operated & when demand low, only few flights or none operated.(remember when Allegiant bought a handful of Mad Dogs for nothing, they didn’t even fly them on Tuesday when demand low)

Obviously not appealing to most business types who want frequency.

Charter ops don’t need a lot of funding, unlike a totally new airline, as run more like a tour operator than an airline.

Example was given of Canada 3000 who were probably the 1st real low cost medium to long haul carrier, who were apparently doing very well up to 10 Sept 2001.

They were the launch airline for the A332 & put 340 Y seats in them, but were looking at going 2 class like Air Transat, before the **** hit the fan on 11 Sept 2001, which obviously killed them, just at a time, when they have taken over a number of smaller Canadian airlines (Royal & Canjet)

They flew to Australia on a scheduled charter basis, whatever that is.

FYI routing with A332s was

YYZ/YVR/HNL/BNE/SYD/AKL/RAR/HNL/YVR/YYZ

&

YYZ/YVR/HNL/RAR/AKL/SYD/BNE/HNL/YVR/YYZ

each week & for example, BNE/YVR was called direct (same aircraft) Fares of AUD$750 return BNE & SYD/YVR were common at a time, when options with other airlines were 2 to 3 times those fares (included checked luggage, free seat selection & basic meals)

The proposal could equally be applied to A330s or B777s. Hundreds of each are parked & their values have plummeted. Some will never fly again. Evan spare parts costs must have plummeted.

Example given was of Nok Scoot B772s, of which they had 7, 2 are parked at ASP.

They had 415 seats (24 + 391)

Owned by SQ, they could be back on SQ register if SQ wanted very quickly, if they needed to be taken off the Thai register.

Seems there are quite a few B777 crews sitting idle.

Can a B773 crew fly a B772 with little training ?

The proposal suggested that SQ be convinced that there was some money to be made, in a LCC or ULCC type operation & they would provide aircraft at very low lease rates or take equity or both, with no long term commitment. Not the same as Scoot, but similar.

SQ 777 crews could be used, but if operation was to be truly low cost, Nok Scoot crews could be used, although if ex VA crews would be prepared to work part time, keeping their currency, until economy recovers in a few years, they would be obvious choice, if flying from Australia. VA crews would probably need to be employed by SQ, on some sort of part time basis.

The young love LCCs, as most would rather spend their limited dollars at their destination, not getting there.

Possible routes were suggested, Australia & NZ/North America via a tech stop. Tech stop could be one of a number of Pacific nations who would jump at chance of having nonstop flights to Aust/NZ/North America & would have traffic rights, so the tech stop could also be a destination.

Crews would need to spend some time at that Pacific nation, but some could probably be based in Australia.

North America could mean Canada (YVR but probably low cost Abbotsford instead), maybe 2ndary airports in USA (OAK or ONT) or Mexico (TIJ).

TIJ is a special case, being right on the USA border. Via www.crossborderxpress.com (http://www.crossborderxpress.com) aircraft can land in Mexico & passengers can simply walk across U.S. border with their luggage (100 m was quoted) to San Diego for a small fee. Fee depends on numbers of pax at one time but probably USD$10 each way (sure beats the very time consuming, land crossing) & also means attractive to San Diego residence would normally drive/transfer the 2 hours to LAX to get anwyhere long haul, although you could fly SAN/HNL.

Most travel agents know, but don’t tell, that it’s almost always cheaper to get separate tickets, (if going to Canada or USA beyond LAX or SFO), to LAX or SFO & then from SFO or LAX to final destination. Guess there might be more commission in it for travel agents, to have all flights on one ticket & less hassles if inbound flight to LAX or SFO is late & trying to connect on separate ticket with 3 hours connection.

Many people in the know, do this & then use frequent flyer points to their final destination.

So idea seems to make sense.

Funding could be in the form of prepurchase of tickets. This already goes on, with most airlines & tour operators.

Seems most legacy carriers would love to reduce costs now, to that similar to LCCs but can't due to existing EBAs & unions.

Hardest parts seems to be, when to commence ops.

Be interesting to hear some comments.

[Buttscratcher]

Claim was they had AUD$1m in place so far.

Cool!.........and its gone

https://youtu.be/jRRs0BrBDx0

[BNEA320]

Cool!.........and its gone

https://youtu.be/jRRs0BrBDx0
a couple of million pay for a short series of charter flights, probably as many as 5 or more returns Australia/North America. Gotta start somewhere.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

About as good as your “All Borders to Reopen” thread.

Muppet.

[BNEA320]

actually rough calculations were wrong. More like 10 return missions Australia/North America.

[lc_461]

Currently no leisure travel is available until further notice to Australian citizens departing Australia
All people allowed back into Australia must quarantine for 14 days at their own expense.
There is little appetite in the community for overseas holidays at the moment.
Please don't post dribble with misleading titles.

[Australopithecus]

So let's just see how many failed Canadian charter operators I can think of:

Air Carter Systems
Worldways
Ontario World Air
Nationair
Vacationair
Odyssey
Canada 2000
Canada 3000
Wardair
Flair Air
Skyservices
Holidair
Thos. Cook Canada
Jetsgo
Points of Call
Royal Aviation
Zoom

But yeah...A seductive business model that is fun for young and old to watch from afar. Very very far.

[Turnleft080]

So let's just see how many failed Canadian charter operators I can think of:

Air Carter Systems
Worldways
Ontario World Air
Nationair
Vacationair
Odyssey
Canada 2000
Canada 3000
Wardair
Flair Air
Skyservices
Holidair
Thos. Cook Canada
Jetsgo
Points of Call
Royal Aviation
Zoom

But yeah...A seductive business model that is fun for young and old to watch from afar. Very very far.

Goodness gracious me Australopithecus how could you possibly forget:

Eastern Provincial
Great Lakes Airways
Nordair
Northwest Territorial Airways
Quebecair
Transair
Pacific Western
Zip

I think we have now done Canada.

[Australopithecus]

Because the ones you listed were all scheduled carriers. We were discussing charter.

[waren9]

bnea320 is a gaslighting troll. how he/she hasn't been banned is beyond me. consistently adds nothing to this community.

[Turnleft080]

Because the ones you listed were all scheduled carriers. We were discussing charter.

Fair enough. Having mentioned Canada 3000 I remember late 90s they use to come into MEL SYD BNE weekly with B757/A330 I think.

[Xeptu]

You forgot to throw in "no experience necessary, we'll train you, send your $100 application fee to".

[BNEA320]

Currently no leisure travel is available until further notice to Australian citizens departing Australia
All people allowed back into Australia must quarantine for 14 days at their own expense.
There is little appetite in the community for overseas holidays at the moment.
Please don't post dribble with misleading titles.
Huge pent up demand. Borders in EU/UK open. UK letting in something like 70 countries without any quarantine.

[BNEA320]

Fair enough. Having mentioned Canada 3000 I remember late 90s they use to come into MEL SYD BNE weekly with B757/A330 I think.Don't think Canada 3000 ever flew into MEL & BNE was only with A332.

Maybe just charter flights not charter airline. Plenty of AOCs around that could be used for purpose.

[SOPS]

Huge pent up demand. Borders in EU/UK open. UK letting in something like 70 countries without any quarantine.

The UK is mad. They just keep importing more cases.

[exfocx]

actually rough calculations were wrong. More like 10 return missions Australia/North America.

BNEA320, (I'm having a BAD day, so pls peeps, forgive me!). BNEA320, you REALLY are clueless, that 1m isn't going to get ONE charter flight to the US let alone TEN. I've really had enough of your crap, if you DON'T stop posting this **** I'm gunna call your mummy and ask her to pull the plug on your internet connection! Get it? STOP RIGHT NOW. Too much already!

ANY 777/330 pilot with any self respect who contacts this very naughty boy, over this absolute fantasy should check in with a mental health facility before you are beyond help.

[BNEA320]

exfocx - do you know anything about costing a series of charter flights for a low cost airline? Doesn't sound like it. Not talking adhoc or crazy QF pricing.

Don't think you understand charters at all. Limited departure dates, with little flexibility, but cheap. Usually older aircraft, but B772s aren't that old & many A330s around not that old either cf. some of QF fleet.

Think you would be a bit more positive about someone creating crew jobs. The person who'd fly a ULCC long haul, are mostly very price sensitive & would not fly same route with likes of Qantas at fares many multiples higher. The backpacker market are resilient & want to fly now, but not at Qantas prices. They will simply stay home.

If you were a B777/A330 pilot would you rather fly for a LCC or not fly at all ? Or drive Uber, stack shelves at Coles ? That's the reality, probably for the next few years.

Did you know there are a large number of B772s for sale asking $8m or $80k/month to lease, or older A333s for $6m or $60k/month, with no takers. In other words, you could get them for less, much less.

Just read about Spirit back into profit soon, while big boys struggle. Covid 19 & recession, playing into LCCs hands.

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/spirit-airlines-says-they-will-be-the-first-profitable-airline-after-covid-19.html

[morno]

exfocx - do you know anything about costing a series of charter flights for a low cost airline? Doesn't sound like it. Not talking adhoc or crazy QF pricing.

Don't think you understand charters at all. Limited departure dates, with little flexibility, but cheap. Usually older aircraft, but B772s aren't that old & many A330s around not that old either cf. some of QF fleet.

Think you would be a bit more positive about someone creating crew jobs. The person who'd fly a ULCC long haul, are mostly very price sensitive & would not fly same route with likes of Qantas at fares many multiples higher. The backpacker market are resilient & want to fly now, but not at Qantas prices. They will simply stay home.

If you were a B777/A330 pilot would you rather fly for a LCC or not fly at all ? Or drive Uber, stack shelves at Coles ? That's the reality, probably for the next few years.

Did you know there are a large number of B772s for sale asking $8m or $80k/month to lease, or older A333s for $6m or $60k/month, with no takers. In other words, you could get them for less, much less.

Just read about Spirit back into profit soon, while big boys struggle. Covid 19 & recession, playing into LCCs hands.

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/spirit-airlines-says-they-will-be-the-first-profitable-airline-after-covid-19.html

OMFG you’re an idiot :ugh:

We can’t even fly overseas at the moment you knob, there’s a travel ban on non essential travel if you didn’t notice. You’ve got to be the worst travel agent I’ve come across.

$1M will do nothing

[Australopithecus]

I don’t really want to feed the troll, but allow me to emphatically state that, in normal times, YOU CANNOT MAKE MONEY FLYING AD HOC CHARTER. YOU CANNOT MAKE MONEY FLYING PACKAGE TOURS. FFS, if you were going to start a venture it would be freight. Easier still...just burn the money and save the effort and heartache.

On a more timely note, as others have mentioned, even the state borders are closed to all but bogan shoplifters and low grade crims. And you cannot get travel insurance for the likely infection so your cheap fare will be offset by a million dollar hospital bill.

From experience I can report that flying the average tour customer is like flying prison transfer flights only without the charm.

[BNEA320]

I don’t really want to feed the troll, but allow me to emphatically state that, in normal times, YOU CANNOT MAKE MONEY FLYING AD HOC CHARTER. YOU CANNOT MAKE MONEY FLYING PACKAGE TOURS. FFS, if you were going to start a venture it would be freight. Easier still...just burn the money and save the effort and heartache.

On a more timely note, as others have mentioned, even the state borders are closed to all but bogan shoplifters and low grade crims. And you cannot get travel insurance for the likely infection so your cheap fare will be offset by a million dollar hospital bill.

From experience I can report that flying the average tour customer is like flying prison transfer flights only without the charm.not ad hoc !!!

Qld/NSW border is not closed. Think Qld/NT & Qld/SA borders may also be open. That covers the most important parts of Australia.

Plenty making money selling packages with air. Wholesale fares(cheaper than anything online) exist solely for packages.

Also Emirates now have cover for their pax !!!

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/this-airline-will-cover-covid-19-cases-from-travel.html

[Australopithecus]

I'm curious as to why you don’t abandon travel agency work and go into either real estate or used cars where B.S. is really prized?

As a background, I once worked for a charter operator flying 737s. We started out with two aircraft and 35 million 1988 dollars and flew absolutely full aircraft until the money was all gone. Took 15 months. Absent government cronyism, grants and protectionism (none of which are in play currently) there is no way to make a profit on charters or tours. Review again my list of failed Canadian operators. Canada has 37 million frozen people who all want to fly south for some sun every year. If you cannot make charter work there you have Buckley's of making it work here.

Also...wages are about 30% of costs. If you pay people half of what they are worth you can only offer fares 15% lower than a legacy carrier. There is no negotiation on any of the other costs.

WTF does EK allegedly underwriting travel insurance have to do with your proposed deal? And on that subject: Amongst the coverage exclusions “your travel against your home country’s government advice or against local authority advice at your trip destination”. So that rules out Aussies. And the cap is $174K, which should cover about five days of ICU in a US hospital. Sucks if you end up 800K out of pocket.

[MD83FO]

How many pilots you recon are jobless, how long will it take to get rehired

[SOPS]

I’m starting to think BNEA320 needs serious help or he ( or she) is some kid who just posts shxt here to wind us all up. Either way.. I wish he or she would go away..

[Al E. Vator]

Well you're the people who get wound up!

if you disagree, politely correct the errors, don't hyperventilate with childish vitriol.

morno "OMFG you’re an idiot https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif"
cynphil "moderators please ban this account"
bugsmasher "muppet"

BNE320 may at worst be unrealistic but also raises some interesting points.
Like the grumpy Karens who populate tank back radio - if you don't like it, you can always change the channel.

[maggot]

Well you're the people who get wound up!

if you disagree, politely correct the errors, don't hyperventilate with childish vitriol.

morno "OMFG you’re an idiot https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif"
cynphil "moderators please ban this account"
bugsmasher "muppet"

BNE320 may at worst be unrealistic but also raises some interesting points.
Like the grumpy Karens who populate tank back radio - if you don't like it, you can always change the channel.
change the channel and you'll just tune into one of his aliases


hint: he has a ton

[Anti Skid On]

Gees BNEA320, not another 'what if' thread.

Canada 3000's original focus was on shipping Canuck's to Caribean Islands and Mexico in their winter and ex-pat Brits to/from the UK in the British summer. They were NEVER a low cost carrier. Most SLF have come to realise that an advanced booked economy flight, with seat, baggage, IFE and refreshments, is generally not much more expensive than a low cost carrier once you have added on baggage, etc.

[BNEA320]

Well you're the people who get wound up!

if you disagree, politely correct the errors, don't hyperventilate with childish vitriol.

morno "OMFG you’re an idiot https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif"
cynphil "moderators please ban this account"
bugsmasher "muppet"

BNE320 may at worst be unrealistic but also raises some interesting points.
Like the grumpy Karens who populate tank back radio - if you don't like it, you can always change the channel.
yes can't believe all the negativity from people who are hanging onto employment. Face it, some pilots will have to retire, some will get less work/less pay. The world has changed from a shortage of pilots to a massive glut of pilots.

[BNEA320]

Gees BNEA320, not another 'what if' thread.

Canada 3000's original focus was on shipping Canuck's to Caribean Islands and Mexico in their winter and ex-pat Brits to/from the UK in the British summer. They were NEVER a low cost carrier. Most SLF have come to realise that an advanced booked economy flight, with seat, baggage, IFE and refreshments, is generally not much more expensive than a low cost carrier once you have added on baggage, etc.
Anti skid on ... LCCs are much cheaper on average.

Book LCC last minute you'll probably pay similar to earlybird legacy type fares.

Why would LCCs be near in cost ? Cos they are almost sold out.

Canada 3000 were launch airline for A332 & choose a 340Y seat configuration(2-4-2), whereas Air Transat went 2 class, 3-3-3 in Y.

Canada 3000s B752s were 2 class.

So they were trying to reduce the per seat cost, while at same time offering some amenities you got on legacy carriers, like meals, baggage, but think booze wasn't "FREE".

They might not be your idea of todays LCCs, but they have far less staff per aircraft (one massive overhead gone), so were able to offer fares from SYD & BNE to YVR return of AUD$750 in peak season, with no extras & often with a free side trip to LAX, when most legacy carriers wanted 3 times that minimum. Loss leaders ? Probably, but as far as reported, they were NOT going broke & had taken over 2 other Canadian carriers, but rather doing quite well, until 10 Sep 2001 & then next day ........... the world changed.

[Al E. Vator]

Yeah don’t push my benevolence BNEA320! Those people ‘hanging on’ have families to support, and mortgages to pay.

[BNEA320]

Yeah don’t push my benevolence BNEA320! Those people ‘hanging on’ have families to support, and mortgages to pay.& in real world ...

do you seriously believe every single QF, VA pilot will still have a job when things get back to normal in a month or 3 ?

Do you seriously believe that Bain are going to pay same as VA paid ? (assuming the bind holders don't get hold of VA owned fleet & sell them & stuff up Bain)

Jobkeeper will end & then what ?

[John Eacott]

not ad hoc !!!

Qld/NSW border is not closed. Think Qld/NT & Qld/SA borders may also be open. That covers the most important parts of Australia.

Plenty making money selling packages with air. Wholesale fares(cheaper than anything online) exist solely for packages.

Also Emirates now have cover for their pax !!!

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/this-airline-will-cover-covid-19-cases-from-travel.html

Qld/NSW border not closed, eh?

What are all those signs saying ‘Border Closed’ with QPol and ADF checking for valid border passes, then? Of course they’re closed :rolleyes: :ugh: