ABC: Pilot Shortage ‘flipped around’

[wheels_down]

It’s clear that the government won’t be assisting Pilots specifically, so it begs the question, a large amount of people will be forced to walk away for 3-5-10 years, with hundreds of Tiger/Virgin/ANZ already sent off, with more expected to come, Will they return? Or will employers re hire those that have been idle for so long.

There is going to be thousands of pilots here including those returning home from Emirates etc.

There has been talk on here about crewing issues long term within the industry, in 20 years when the majority of the existing ATPLs today, retire. On the other end, the amount of self funding CPLs in the near future will be near none.

Pilots are bracing for a three-year coronavirus shutdown and want help to keep them in aviation


At the age of 17, Qantas pilot Mark Sedgwick left home to join the Air Force.Key points:

With flights grounded by COVID-19, job prospects for pilots are limited
Pilots are also at risk of losing their accreditation because they can't fly
There are calls for a 'PilotKeeper' package to help keep them in aviation

He is grateful he did not have to pay for his training but said other sacrifices were made along the way.

Mr Sedgwick is now the head of the Australian and International Pilots Association, which represents Qantas pilots.

And he is worried about younger colleagues who have paid big dollars to get their qualifications, often moved towns or states to get their flying hours up and now face limited job prospects because of COVID-19.

"The cost of doing flying training at the various flying schools around the country can certainly go well above six figures, so well over $100,000 in training costs," he said

"It would be incredibly difficult [for people] to have to walk away.

Mr Sedgwick welcomed the Federal Government's latest COVID-19 JobKeeper assistance (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/jobkeeper-jobseeker-extended-rates-cut-coronavirus-morrison/12475716) but called for a sector-specific package for aviation.

"Anything at this point is really important to the industry [but] certainly in the future we'd like to see a targeted approach to aviation employees, an aviation or 'PilotKeeper'-type program," he said.Veteran pilots may need re-trainingMr Sedgwick said Australian pilots were required to fly at least once every 45 days to be allowed to use their Civil Aviation Safety Authority-issued licence.

On top of that, Qantas pilots needed to complete four simulator flights every 12 months

But with planes grounded around the world because of COVID-19, many pilots were now unable to meet the requirements.

Mr Sedgwick said a so-called PilotKeeper program could pay for the retraining required for pilots to eventually re-enter the skies.

"It will be easier to have pilots who maintain a level of currency of skills throughout this COVID period for when they come back at the other side, versus trying to wait a year or two or three years until they come back and then essentially training back from scratch again."

Mr Sedgwick said the COVID-19 outbreak in Victoria was compounding the problem.
https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/12487392-3x2-xlarge.jpg?v=3 "We have quite a significant simulator base in Melbourne which is effectively shut at the moment ... they're in COVID hotspots as well, so that is proving a logistical challenge to keep pilots current when you can't get access to some of those simulators themselves," he said.

"We have access to simulators in Sydney as well, but clearly bringing pilots from WA or from Queensland and trying to use just simulators in Sydney is proving to be difficult, and those simulators in Sydney ... effectively have to operate around the clock."Pilot shortage 'flipped around'Perth flying school Airflite's general manager, Kristian Constantinides, backed the call for a PilotKeeper program, noting until recently there were forecasts of a global pilot shortage.
https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/12487388-3x2-xlarge.jpg?v=2 "We were coming from an environment that had extreme levels of forecast demand — over 600,000 pilots required over the next 20 years — and a gap in the existing level as existing pilots exited the profession and the new ones coming in didn't have the same level of experience," he said.

"That in the short term has been flipped around."

But Mr Constantinides was optimistic about the Australian industry's long-term future, if pilot skills could be maintained.

"Aviation is an English-speaking domain, Australia being an English-speaking nation, with the weather that we have that's ideal for flying, with respected standards internationally," he said.

"We're well-positioned as a whole industry to benefit from the return of demand when that occurs.

"So the longer we can hold on as an industry and the longer we can retain capability, I think the better it will be for this nation."

[spektrum]

Seriously, everybody needs to stop expecting government hand outs. Socialism gone mad.

[wheels_down]

Forget handouts. There is, and will never be a PilotKeeper. Nothing. Zilch. Move on.

I don’t know how many times the PM had to say this. Bit like Virgin going to The Treasurer 20 times for cash when he said No the previous 19 times.

[machtuk]

Remember our corrupt Govt represent ALL Australians, pilots are just a minority group in the scheme of things & the general public would be mortified if the Govt lent a financial hand to a bunch of glorified bus drivers, -)

[morno]

Yes never going to happen. Nor should it. If you are unfortunate enough to lose your job, yes it does suck, but there are other things outside of aviation you can do.

[neville_nobody]

All this will do is exacerbate the mother of all Pilot Shortages in around the 2030's. There will be early retirements and those who leave as there is no employment. If you can hang on 5 years I would suggest that you would probably get back into an airline. All that depends on your life stage though if you have a family waiting 5 years for another airline job is not going to happen.

What will happen is training will dry up, there will be no one moving through the industry, retirements still happen and eventually there will be noone left to hire. You can't just get airline ready pilots overnight. With the cost of training now so high the risk profile will be to much for most to accept. Those finishing cadet courses or high fee training right now are probably going to get screwed and be lucky to not be bankrupt. It will be interesting to see what REX do with their cadets as people there are legally bonded but noone will be moving on there in a hurry.

[LostWanderer]

All this will do is exacerbate the mother of all Pilot Shortages in around the 2030's. There will be early retirements and those who leave as there is no employment

You ain’t wrong! Aviation globally is not going to be a career anyone flocks to for the foreseeable future. Soon that pipeline of pilots in training at flight schools will dry up, in Australia (and beyond) some flying schools will be forced to close, in fact many likely will.
Spending the dollars on commercial training or even recreational training just won’t be feasible as the unemployment numbers rocket upwards and people find there are absolutely no jobs for pilots anywhere.

Things will eventually turn around with high passenger demand and as pointed out, there won’t be enough pilots to recruit fast enough as that happens. I too think we are now setting up for one almighty shortage again, a long way off yes but there is no mistake that it is on its way again.

[pig dog]

By 2030 everyone will be so used to having their Tesla drive them around on autopilot that the thought of catching a jet with only one driver or possibly none won’t seem like a big deal.

The last pilot shortage EVER happened in 2019, it was the best 2 weeks of my life!

BTW, if you don’t think change can happen so quickly remember that the first iPhone was released mid 2007. Prior to that a “smartphone” was not much more capable than a Nokia 5110 but had a low res camera and you could type some notes on it. A decade later life without a smartphone is almost inconceivable.

[Easyheat]

There will be no shortages of pilots, never. They are too easy to train, and it can be done within very a short period, and there are too many boys who will try if they can see that terms and conditions are in an upwind trend. I have two boys myself, still some years to go before they will choose what to do after school time ends. And if its up to the old man, its not gonna be aviation. I have been there, and still is, but I have been lucky, nothing else. No specific qualifications, just timing, nothing that distinguishes me from the rest.

I ask myself, how can it be that you can be the best pilot in the world and be unemployed? This is not possible for a doctor, an engineer, a dentist or someone who has skilled qualifications in other branches. Maybe we are also skilled, but we are as individuals too easy to replace by some one else, who are willing to do it cheaper, or sacrifice more.

Future in aviation? Not a chance!

[Xeptu]

What easyheat said. I came through the era when the notion of a pilot shortage was inconceivable, equally inconceivable was the notion that kids would be trained at dedicated schools in 12 months then thrown straight into the right hand seat of a 777 for few years before sliding across to the command seat. That's how airlines do it these days and into the future.

Domestic short haul should see a return to 50% of what it previously was within a year I would think, Long Haul a few years. Anyone much over age 55 isn't going back, Whilst there won't be a shortage, there probably won't be an over supply either.

[Australopithecus]

The idea that experienced pilots would be overlooked doesn’t make sense. Why would you not choose an experienced pilot who has been grounded over someone with no experience at all?

If I was presented with a fresh commercial pilot after this I would wonder about that pilot's intelligence and appetite for risk.

[dontgive2FACs]

All valid points above. It seems certain to me that given the volatility of the job, many will see the already high initial-outlay to be a big roadblock.

Whatever rank/position you hold now, prepare to be in it for a long time.

If you’re lucky enough to have a job now, treasure it.

The industry will advance again the future, but for the meantime, the music has stopped.

all the best everyone

[finestkind]

Very much a new lesson to be learnt. 911, GFC, SARS and now Corona. A specific trade that due to the explosion of the middle class’ affordability to travel has expanded air travel from the 70/80’s to mammoth industry that not only is aircrew but all that goes with travel. Easyheat’s point on having quals in other trades is valid. As a pilot you trade/qual’s are reliant on air travel, hence airlines, of which no matter how good your qual’s are you cannot ply without that employment. It will be very interesting to see how air travel pan’s out over the next few years and the impact this has on careers in the aviation industry. Even without Corona Xeptu’s point on training was/is also valid. Airlines set their own requirements for employment. So if they are happy to train you for 12 months and throw you in a seat that is and has been acceptable for that position, that is what will happen. Flying is no longer piloting but systems operation. You no longer are a Captain as decision's will be made by the manager back at base.



AUST your point is common sense AND when has common sense played a part in business. If you can get a 25 yo with bugger all experience but enough to satisfy whatever why would you employ a 40 + y.o whom you may only get 20 years out. Yes I and everyone else would rather have the 40 y.o. up front but the company does not see it that way.

[chookcooker]

You no longer are a Captain as decision's will be made by the manager back at the base

Possibly the biggest load of bull**** I’ve read on this forum and that’s saying something.

[ruprecht]

You no longer are a Captain as decision's will be made by the manager back at base.

Don’t smoke crack, kids...

[Ladloy]

Seriously, everybody needs to stop expecting government hand outs. Socialism gone mad.
Even libertarians are shouting at the rooftops for government intervention during this time. So no, not socialism.

[wheels_down]

You no longer are a Captain as decision's will be made by the manager back at base.

Wrong Country mate. AirAsia is based in Malaysia.

[Lookleft]

Flying is no longer piloting but systems operation. You no longer are a Captain as decision's will be made by the manager back at base.

Clearly a statement from someone who is not a pilot but having done an aviation management course think they know how aeroplanes work.

[megan]

Wrong Country mateAfraid not, albeit non airline, but nevertheless a major operator, though it's possible things have changed now.

[krismiler]

A few years ago we had a 50 year old with a brand new CPL get taken on, about 4 years later he was upgraded to Captain. That won't be happening again for a long time.

Newly qualified licence holders will be waiting for a long time for their first break and there will obviously be issues with recency, but those who are in their 20s still have a chance of an aviation career.

Those who are 60+ and were flying A380/B747 probably won't be going back and need to grab the best early retirement/voluntary redundancy package they can get.

Those in their 50s are a mixed bag. Some may have done well enough to consider early retirement where as others still need the golden years in the left seat to set themselves up. Some may be on obsolete types and not worth retraining where as others may be on new types and can justify being employed for another 15 years.

Those in their 40s flying heavy equipment such as A330/B787 should be okay but may be out for a couple of years until demand returns. They have a good level of experience and can easily downgrade to narrow body if needed.

Captains around the age of 30 flying A320/B737 will have it best as they can still have 30 years flying ahead of them once travel picks up again, are still reasonably sharp when it comes to regaining their skills and domestic/regional will be the first sector to recover.

Any projected pilot shortage in 10 years time isn't worth considering for the politicians, just kick it down the road for whoever's in charge then.

[PoppaJo]

I looked after recruitment at my previous operator over a decade ago, having a very aged, and experienced pilot body, we started some long term mapping on what the future holds for recruitment. We did this in conjunction with the regulator who was able to give us an insight into something we needed, data. The data is on par with the above, there is going to be considerable retirements 2033-2040, assuming the retirement age of 65. The unknown is how it’s going to play out within that period for those that are left. Going to be a lot of fast upgrades and high turnover at operators as they try to fill seats and maintain some form of experience. Remuneration in the sandpit will be highly attractive later down the track as they struggle to fill seats. The regionals will get burnt with high turnover and have a hard time of maintaining those in the left seat. Experience and quality of candidates at places like Jetstar will be low compared to what it is today, as everyone will move onto legacy carriers.

The point above of mass producing pilots above, being a ‘number’ is true for some operators, but not all. I assume you are referring to Emirates who lowered requirements in recent years. That carrier has had questionable safety incidents in the last decade. The culture had also taken a large dive there in recent times, and they have reached out to numerous other operators in a effort to hire top trainers to fix their problems. I fly with cadets mass produced. Some good, some not so good, are they the future trainers and CPs of this country, I don’t think so. Not from the behaviour that I have seen recently from some.

[Xeptu]

I've got a 10 year re-employment clause in our contract. If my number comes up in that 10 years then they have to take me back.

In the meanwhile I'm not even going to think about flying. That first sim back will be fun.

That clause has been around for decades and I can't recall a single one who has ever been asked to return under it. "Anybody know anyone that has" ?.

[George Glass]

Very much a new lesson to be learnt. 911, GFC, SARS and now Corona. A specific trade that due to the explosion of the middle class’ affordability to travel has expanded air travel from the 70/80’s to mammoth industry that not only is aircrew but all that goes with travel. Easyheat’s point on having quals in other trades is valid. As a pilot you trade/qual’s are reliant on air travel, hence airlines, of which no matter how good your qual’s are you cannot ply without that employment. It will be very interesting to see how air travel pan’s out over the next few years and the impact this has on careers in the aviation industry. Even without Corona Xeptu’s point on training was/is also valid. Airlines set their own requirements for employment. So if they are happy to train you for 12 months and throw you in a seat that is and has been acceptable for that position, that is what will happen. Flying is no longer piloting but systems operation. You no longer are a Captain as decision's will be made by the manager back at base.



AUST your point is common sense AND when has common sense played a part in business. If you can get a 25 yo with bugger all experience but enough to satisfy whatever why would you employ a 40 + y.o whom you may only get 20 years out. Yes I and everyone else would rather have the 40 y.o. up front but the company does not see it that way.

Good grief. Why do posters feel the need to pontificate on subjects they are clueless about.
Its not about rights or privileges of individual Pilots. Its about keeping an Airline alive.
Each Pilot in a major Airline is trained under an approved matrix of simulator training plus recurrent Licence and Instrument Ratings , Line Checks , EP’s , DAMP ,etc. etc.
Let it all lapse and its a nightmare.
I recall a similar event 31 years ago. It took a decade to get back to the pre-Dispute standards.

[neville_nobody]

I ask myself, how can it be that you can be the best pilot in the world and be unemployed? This is not possible for a doctor, an engineer, a dentist or someone who has skilled qualifications in other branches. Maybe we are also skilled, but we are as individuals too easy to replace by some one else, who are willing to do it cheaper, or sacrifice more.

You can't compare any industry to medicine that is unique in that Doctors and other associated professions will always be in demand. The other issue there is that Doctors themselves control the labour market for doctors and have significant influence politically. Doctors will always be overpaid as they control their own salary and labour supply not the market.

As for every other job it is dependent on the market for your services. It doesn't matter how good you are at anything if noone wants to buy it that's the way it is. Imagine being the best manufacturer of radial engine, pocket calculators, the world's best publisher of annual reports. Just because you make the best product or are good at something doesn't mean that you will be employed. Why is it that if you win one golf tournament on the PGA you get circa US$1 000 000 while the World's Croquet Championship is amateur?

Don't think that every white collar profession is a guarantee to print money either. There are plenty of very good engineers out there who are discovering that there are engineers just as good as them from Bangladesh or India who will work for a salary that wouldn't even paid rent in Australia. Journalism careers got blown up by the internet. Good luck finding a long term career in news reporting. Laywers too are getting squeezed. Every Uni in Australia pumps out law graduates every year which only diminishes your chance of a payrise.

So at the end of the day Pilots will have to accept it isn't personal and have to go find another way of being employed. The issue here is that Pilot skills are not readily recognised by employers and don't have qualifications that cross over into other industries unlike just about every other qualification.

[finestkind]

Gents thank you for your comments. For those of you that make disparaging remarks about the poster, well you can understand why the Captain’s authority is no longer what it was with that level of maturity.



Chookcooker. At least your comment was about the post. I will still disagree that a Captain today has the same authority to make the decisions that Captain’s made in the 50’s/60’s/70’s. For those of you that take affront to having your four bars questioned or your pursuit of those four bars take note I am talking about decision making and not responsibility. Try exercising your Captain’s authority particularly if it flies in the face of your companies SOP’s and see how long your employment continues.



Ruprecht you certainly have made me see why my post was so far off mark.



Wheelsdown see above response to chook.



George Glass. Let me pontificate on my post, which was a post in agreeing with a couple of points made by two other posters ( I know really, pontificating on other pontificator’s, realllly) and a few of my thoughts. Not to certain where I stated anything about rights and privileges of pilots but I agree it is about keeping Airlines alive. At this time pilots are required for that to happen but given the number of threads and post about the treatment from pay to sick leave to training cost to contractual obligation for training etc., etc., I do not think the Airlines are too concerned about pilot’s but more about profit. Your lamington, sorry lamentations on training, checks and currency requirements are true but a) support the statement of all those qual’s only being good if you have a job (unlike the ability to find work a lot easier with other trade/professional qual’s) b) support the point (prob poorly made) of all that work for a very specific line of work and, c) your contradictory last sentence. All this maintenance of standards that can be so easily eroded and so takes 31 years to get back to “pre-dispute standards”. Does this not align with the concern of having less experienced people up the front. “Each Pilot in a major Airline is trained under an approved matrix of simulator training” Are you indicating that every major airline has the same training requirements for employment.

[f1yhigh]

Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?

[Ladloy]

Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?
I do but I know if I didn't I would regret it too. Engineering would have been my career or perhaps a trade.

[George Glass]

Gents thank you for your comments. For those of you that make disparaging remarks about the poster, well you can understand why the Captain’s authority is no longer what it was with that level of maturity.



Chookcooker. At least your comment was about the post. I will still disagree that a Captain today has the same authority to make the decisions that Captain’s made in the 50’s/60’s/70’s. For those of you that take affront to having your four bars questioned or your pursuit of those four bars take note I am talking about decision making and not responsibility. Try exercising your Captain’s authority particularly if it flies in the face of your companies SOP’s and see how long your employment continues.



Ruprecht you certainly have made me see why my post was so far off mark.



Wheelsdown see above response to chook.



George Glass. Let me pontificate on my post, which was a post in agreeing with a couple of points made by two other posters ( I know really, pontificating on other pontificator’s, realllly) and a few of my thoughts. Not to certain where I stated anything about rights and privileges of pilots but I agree it is about keeping Airlines alive. At this time pilots are required for that to happen but given the number of threads and post about the treatment from pay to sick leave to training cost to contractual obligation for training etc., etc., I do not think the Airlines are too concerned about pilot’s but more about profit. Your lamington, sorry lamentations on training, checks and currency requirements are true but a) support the statement of all those qual’s only being good if you have a job (unlike the ability to find work a lot easier with other trade/professional qual’s) b) support the point (prob poorly made) of all that work for a very specific line of work and, c) your contradictory last sentence. All this maintenance of standards that can be so easily eroded and so takes 31 years to get back to “pre-dispute standards”. Does this not align with the concern of having less experienced people up the front. “Each Pilot in a major Airline is trained under an approved matrix of simulator training” Are you indicating that every major airline has the same training requirements for employment.


If I could understand the point of your post I’d respond. But.........

[f1yhigh]

I do but I know if I didn't I would regret it too. Engineering would have been my career or perhaps a trade.

Sorry for your situation. It's a catch 22, regret it if you hadn't done it, regret it because covid has impacted your way of living. I hope things work out for yourself.

[George Glass]

You can't compare any industry to medicine that is unique in that Doctors and other associated professions will always be in demand. The other issue there is that Doctors themselves control the labour market for doctors and have significant influence politically. Doctors will always be overpaid as they control their own salary and labour supply not the market.

As for every other job it is dependent on the market for your services. It doesn't matter how good you are at anything if noone wants to buy it that's the way it is. Imagine being the best manufacturer of radial engine, pocket calculators, the world's best publisher of annual reports. Just because you make the best product or are good at something doesn't mean that you will be employed. Why is it that if you win one golf tournament on the PGA you get circa US$1 000 000 while the World's Croquet Championship is amateur?

Don't think that every white collar profession is a guarantee to print money either. There are plenty of very good engineers out there who are discovering that there are engineers just as good as them from Bangladesh or India who will work for a salary that wouldn't even paid rent in Australia. Journalism careers got blown up by the internet. Good luck finding a long term career in news reporting. Laywers too are getting squeezed. Every Uni in Australia pumps out law graduates every year which only diminishes your chance of a payrise.

So at the end of the day Pilots will have to accept it isn't personal and have to go find another way of being employed. The issue here is that Pilot skills are not readily recognised by employers and don't have qualifications that cross over into other industries unlike just about every other qualification.


Pilots aren’t like Doctors for the simple reason that you cant hang out your shingle and start practicing.
But a Surgeon mate of mine , who also flies , says he feels the same way when doesn’t fly for a while as when he doesn’t operate for a couple of weeks. If people think Pilots are glorified bus drivers , well good luck. But I’ll take experience , training and recency thanks very much.
The first couple of years after ‘89 were a debacle and the Australian industry was very lucky to get away with it. We don’t need a repeat.

[machtuk]

Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?

I don't regret being a plane driver as I have/had a few other skills behind me, I never put all my eggs in the one basket., payed off big time!

[Xeptu]

Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?

I can’t say I regret becoming a pilot, I always loved flying but hated the Airline Industry. It’s a hard road when you consider what you have to do to stay in it.

Would I do it again, that’s also a hard question and based on what I know today as a retiree, which isn’t known while you’re in it Today probably not, at least not airlines.
911 was the game changer. I can’t say it was fun beyond that.

What do I miss, the sunrise and sunset at altitude, capturing the sight of space junk entering the atmosphere at night.
Christmas eve before 911, I used to bring the kids up to the flight deck and bull**** them about santa out there off the port wing overtaking us, (port position light not visible from the cabin) the awe in their eyes.

What don’t I miss, getting up at 3am to go to work, waking up in a hotel and just momentarily not knowing where I am, driving home on the freeway, tired in the dark.

None of my kids went down the aviation road, thank goodness. Age for age they are more ahead of the game than I was at their age. My eldest almost owns his own home, at 35 I was just getting started.
A tip, if you can, choose a partner who is not aviation, otherwise when it’s over you’ll have no friends outside of aviation, it has its own language that no-one else understands. It takes 2 years minimum to disengage and get your head around a world outside of aviation.

Today, I love my life, retirement is good to me, although I admit for the first few years I wondered if I had made a mistake going early, but no, it was the right decision, I was fortunate enough to be able to make.

[George Glass]

I can’t say I regret becoming a pilot, I always loved flying but hated the Airline Industry. It’s a hard road when you consider what you have to do to stay in it.

Would I do it again, that’s also a hard question and based on what I know today as a retiree, which isn’t known while you’re in it Today probably not, at least not airlines.
911 was the game changer. I can’t say it was fun beyond that.

What do I miss, the sunrise and sunset at altitude, capturing the sight of space junk entering the atmosphere at night.
Christmas eve before 911, I used to bring the kids up to the flight deck and bull**** them about santa out there off the port wing overtaking us, (port position light not visible from the cabin) the awe in their eyes.

What don’t I miss, getting up at 3am to go to work, waking up in a hotel and just momentarily not knowing where I am, driving home on the freeway, tired in the dark.

None of my kids went down the aviation road, thank goodness. Age for age they are more ahead of the game than I was at their age. My eldest almost owns his own home, at 35 I was just getting started.
A tip, if you can, choose a partner who is not aviation, otherwise when it’s over you’ll have no friends outside of aviation, it has its own language that no-one else understands. It takes 2 years minimum to disengage and get your head around a world outside of aviation.

Today, I love my life, retirement is good to me, although I admit for the first few years I wondered if I had made a mistake going early, but no, it was the right decision, I was fortunate enough to be able to make.


Well said.

Walking the dogs I met a group of people in the park. One turned out to be another stood down Airline employee from another carrier. A complete stranger . We talked for half an hour . Everybody else drifted away.
You are right though. Its a hard road.

[machtuk]

I can’t say I regret becoming a pilot, I always loved flying but hated the Airline Industry. It’s a hard road when you consider what you have to do to stay in it.

Would I do it again, that’s also a hard question and based on what I know today as a retiree, which isn’t known while you’re in it Today probably not, at least not airlines.
911 was the game changer. I can’t say it was fun beyond that.

What do I miss, the sunrise and sunset at altitude, capturing the sight of space junk entering the atmosphere at night.
Christmas eve before 911, I used to bring the kids up to the flight deck and bull**** them about santa out there off the port wing overtaking us, (port position light not visible from the cabin) the awe in their eyes.

What don’t I miss, getting up at 3am to go to work, waking up in a hotel and just momentarily not knowing where I am, driving home on the freeway, tired in the dark.

None of my kids went down the aviation road, thank goodness. Age for age they are more ahead of the game than I was at their age. My eldest almost owns his own home, at 35 I was just getting started.
A tip, if you can, choose a partner who is not aviation, otherwise when it’s over you’ll have no friends outside of aviation, it has its own language that no-one else understands. It takes 2 years minimum to disengage and get your head around a world outside of aviation.

Today, I love my life, retirement is good to me, although I admit for the first few years I wondered if I had made a mistake going early, but no, it was the right decision, I was fortunate enough to be able to make.


that about sums it up in a nut shell!
I too was fortunate that none of my sprogs where interested in aviation, they dodged a bullet there as I did (cost wise) -)

[sunnySA]

Pilot Shortage flipped around and now ATC Shortage flipped around.

[Angle of Attack]

Chookcooker. At least your comment was about the post. I will still disagree that a Captain today has the same authority to make the decisions that Captain’s made in the 50’s/60’s/70’s. For those of you that take affront to having your four bars questioned or your pursuit of those four bars take note I am talking about decision making and not responsibility. Try exercising your Captain’s authority particularly if it flies in the face of your companies SOP’s and see how long your employment continues.


Finestkind, I, for one have gone against SOP’S multiple times in the interests of safety and my employment continued. I think your full of it and are either a failed upgrade or someone bitter with the system. Once in the air it is the Captains authority all the way, although I just noticed your location says SAUDI, well your in another world buddy, if that’s your world then sorry about that, it’s different everywhere else, the Captain rules the roost when airborne, unless your in Saudi obviously! 😂

[Xeptu]

In fairness, the captains decision making authority hasn't changed, what has changed is that because of our sophistication and technologies, there are less things to make a decision on.
Responsibility hasn't changed, In law under emergency conditions, the Captain can over-ride any rule, requirement or procedure in the interests of safety. The Captain is still accountable for that action. A classic example of peer review and accountability would be Sully.

[jmmoric]

A few years ago we had a 50 year old with a brand new CPL get taken on, about 4 years later he was upgraded to Captain. That won't be happening again for a long time.

To be fair, a 50 year old has some other qualifications than a younger version of said person, even comming from the outside give something someone living inside will never obtain.

I hate to say it, but as I get older myself, as everyone else, even I feel that normal life experience is changing a person, mostly into a person with a broader view on things, a better understanding, and eventhough we probably do not admit it, we all become better "captain"-stuff just from agening a bit.

Sure, you can find old grumpy men as well, but they're often a class of strange inbred creatures, who have stuck around the same fold for too long, and have lost any track of how life is outside.

[ChrisVJ]

Just a thought about young people not going into training because of a perceived lack of aviation in the future.

In one respect I think most pilots are a bit like teachers or doctors. For sure I met a couple of teachers who joined up because of the hours and the pension but 90% or more became teachers because they wanted to teach, help kids, believed an educated world would be a better world. I have three kids in aviation and none of them joined because of the the money, the business or the pension. They all joined because they wanted to fly and I'll bet 90% of the pilots out there were the same. It may be more difficult but those kids are always out there.

If I was choosing a career just now I would want to be a pilot. Two or three years training and, hopefully, four or five years getting some experience. With luck I would be situated just right when the so called shortage comes round.

Almost all professions include political risk. For sure we will always need doctors and undertakers but for them the risk is malpractice suits and changes in government policy that can make their life a misery. These are hard times for a lot of people, not just pilots, and training schools may have a slow down but as long as kids can look up and see an aircraft there will always be some who 'have' to fly.

[KRUSTY 34]

Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?

No regrets about becoming a pilot. In fact mate I’m thankful for every day I got out of bed and looked forward to going to work.

Would I do some things differently? Absolutely, but you can’t turn back the clock. I’ve had a pretty good run. Not as stellar as some, but definitely better than a lot.

Considering what many of my friends and former colleagues are going through, I can’t complain. Good luck guys, I hope you all find peace when you come out the other side.

[Ladloy]

Sorry for your situation. It's a catch 22, regret it if you hadn't done it, regret it because covid has impacted your way of living. I hope things work out for yourself.
I'm just riding the wave now. I was finally at a point where I've paid my training off so I guess I'll just see what the next 12 months bring!

[aussiebushflyer]

Let's just hope Australia's domestic market can do what China has. Most of China's airports are now reporting domestic passenger numbers and flights back at 2019 levels. Aircraft groundings in China are now below 10% of the fleet and much of that is 737max related.

[Lookleft]

I have no doubt about the domestic market picking up but until people in Melbourne stop going to work when they are not feeling well then we will remain grounded for months.

[finestkind]

Finestkind, I, for one have gone against SOP’S multiple times in the interests of safety and my employment continued. I think your full of it and are either a failed upgrade or someone bitter with the system. Once in the air it is the Captains authority all the way, although I just noticed your location says SAUDI, well your in another world buddy, if that’s your world then sorry about that, it’s different everywhere else, the Captain rules the roost when airborne, unless your in Saudi obviously! 😂“ I disagree with you opinion and wonder whether you have an axe to grind” would have been sufficient and mature in response than your above post.



Xeptu hit the nail on the head. There are less decisions to be made. Your fuel load , diversions etc. are all made for you (or am I wrong in memory about the complaints posted some time ago about a company dictating these). Given the ability to contact home base as opposed to years ago the Captain now has the company’s input with issues. Yes there are some companies that when you contact home base and tell them that the wings have fallen off will order you not to crash (middle east companies come to mind) but in an emergency the Captain goes down with the ship and therefore is the ruling authority. What I was stating was a Captain years ago was in charge of everything from what, who, went on board fuel loads diversion etc.

[neville_nobody]

There are less decisions to be made. Your fuel load , diversions etc. are all made for you

Really? What airline in the world can order a captain how much fuel to take or which airport to divert to??

[Icarus2001]

Once in the air it is the Captains authority all the way,

99% of the time is doing what the manufacturer, CASA or your company says in their manuals.
I get to decide fuel load, final level, which leg to fly and which meal to eat. The rest is laid down. I have proved this to myself many times.

[finestkind]

Neville pleased to hear this. The fragrant harbour thread, years ago, did have some concerns expressed on the company dictating these things.



Icarus is that not a contradiction, slight as it may seem and appears to support my point. “99 % of the time, the manufacturer, CASA, or company manuals” . Who writes the company manual’s?

[mccauleyprop]

If I was a 20 something Pilot that had recently lost my job after spending massive amounts of money to gain that coveted airline job with no other life skills, then I would simply declare bankruptcy and return to school and get a trade certificate! You can rebuild your credit while getting a real job... rejoin the workforce even as an apprentice, make some money, and eventually get your ticket while the airline industry regroups. Then rejoin the airlines with money in your bank!

[kingRB]

nice attitude mccauley - life didn't work out how I wanted so i'll just pretend I don't have any responsibility to what I owe. There isn't any free lunches in life.

[neville_nobody]

If I was a 20 something Pilot that had recently lost my job after spending massive amounts of money to gain that coveted airline job with no other life skills, then I would simply declare bankruptcy and return to school and get a trade certificate! You can rebuild your credit while getting a real job... rejoin the workforce even as an apprentice, make some money, and eventually get your ticket while the airline industry regroups. Then rejoin the airlines with money in your bank!

It doesn't work like that. They will garnish a percentage of your wages until you die. You then have to get clever with how you earn money and how you hold assets if you wish to avoid paying your debts.

[Australopithecus]

It doesn't work like that. They will garnish a percentage of your wages until you die. You then have to get clever with how you earn money and how you hold assets if you wish to avoid paying your debts.

No, they don’t. Bankruptcy cancels all debts and after three years the bankrupt is discharged with a clean slate. If you do it enough times you can be President of some third world countries.

[plotplot]

No, they don’t. Bankruptcy cancels all debts and after three years the bankrupt is discharged with a clean slate. If you do it enough times you can be President of some third world countries.

thread drift but bankruptcy does not cover hecs debt so the point is moot.

[krismiler]

Child support isn't covered either.

[havick]

thread drift but bankruptcy does not cover hecs debt so the point is moot.

Guess it depends on whether someone ran up debt through Hecs or just a personal loan with a bank. Not that I advocate doing a cut and run with your responsibilities.

[neville_nobody]

No, they don’t. Bankruptcy cancels all debts and after three years the bankrupt is discharged with a clean slate.

It all depends on what it is and who you owe money to and how much you earn post bankruptcy and what deal you cut. As stated above HECs amongst other things like tax and child support don't disappear.

https://www.afsa.gov.au/insolvency/cant-pay-my-debts/what-bankruptcy

[Daddy Fantastic]

I can’t say I regret becoming a pilot, I always loved flying but hated the Airline Industry. It’s a hard road when you consider what you have to do to stay in it.

.

It is so funny you say that because it is exactly how I feel. I have just been hired by a major cargo carrier and will never ever go back to airlines. Im in my mid 40's but people kept asking why I hated flying. They could not understand that a pilot can love being a pilot but hate the airline industry, mainly because of how it is run and the absolute muppets that are in charge, their greed and basic dislike for pilots.

I have a young daughter who keeps saying 'Daddy I want to be a pilot like you' now as a father I will support her 110% and help wherever I can but I hope when she is older she does something non aviation related. I know its tough when you are a youngster and you get the flying bug, its like an addiction but my advice now is if you are thinking about studying now just after high school or even early 20's still, get something uselful like a Law/Business management degree, medical degree, IT Programmer etc.....

You can always work for a few years and become a pilot in your late 20s and early 30s and have a brilliant airline career but if the pooh hits the fan you will be well positioned to go back to what you know with experience in the bank. Its the advice I would give my own daughter if she were 18 now. Airline flying is not for everyone and it certainly is not the be all and end all of aviation. Most of it is mundane, frustrating and quite irksome.

Fly King Air's for the RFDS or Dash 8 for the coastguard, will be much more fun flying without the idiotic and useless airline management to deal with. You could probably do that while still being a doctor or lawyer.

[dontgive2FACs]

99% of the time is doing what the manufacturer, CASA or your company says in their manuals.
I get to decide fuel load, final level, which leg to fly and which meal to eat. The rest is laid down. I have proved this to myself many times.

pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[havick]

It is so funny you say that because it is exactly how I feel. I have just been hired by a major cargo carrier and will never ever go back to airlines. Im in my mid 40's but people kept asking why I hated flying. They could not understand that a pilot can love being a pilot but hate the airline industry, mainly because of how it is run and the absolute muppets that are in charge, their greed and basic dislike for pilots.

I have a young daughter who keeps saying 'Daddy I want to be a pilot like you' now as a father I will support her 110% and help wherever I can but I hope when she is older she does something non aviation related. I know its tough when you are a youngster and you get the flying bug, its like an addiction but my advice now is if you are thinking about studying now just after high school or even early 20's still, get something uselful like a Law/Business management degree, medical degree, IT Programmer etc.....

You can always work for a few years and become a pilot in your late 20s and early 30s and have a brilliant airline career but if the pooh hits the fan you will be well positioned to go back to what you know with experience in the bank. Its the advice I would give my own daughter if she were 18 now. Airline flying is not for everyone and it certainly is not the be all and end all of aviation. Most of it is mundane, frustrating and quite irksome.

Fly King Air's for the RFDS or Dash 8 for the coastguard, will be much more fun flying without the idiotic and useless airline management to deal with. You could probably do that while still being a doctor or lawyer.

True to some degree but, someone with an unrelated degree to flying (specialised) with no experience in the field will find it difficult to go back to that field if they lose their flying job.

I say be a doctor, lawyer etc and fly for fun on the side, or go all in day one being pilot for a career. You can always re-skill after the fact if the flying career doesn’t work out.

Aviation unfortunately is all about getting experience ahead of the guy next to you.

[dr dre]

True to some degree but, someone with an unrelated degree to flying (specialised) with no experience in the field will find it difficult to go back to that field if they lose their flying job.

This is something I’m hearing from a lot of stood down aviation workers at the moment. They have qualifications in a second field, but due to having not worked in that other industry for a number of years their qualifications aren’t recognised and are essentially meaningless, forcing them to be employable only in unskilled labour like traffic controller or checkout at Coles.

[bafanguy]

True to some degree but, someone with an unrelated degree to flying (specialised) with no experience in the field will find it difficult to go back to that field if they lose their flying job.

Havick & dr dre,

I think you both nailed the problem. From the time I started flying in the mid 1960s the conventional wisdom has been get a degree in another field as a fall-back in case the aviation thing goes sour.

While I'd never argue against more education, I just think there are some practical problems with that advice if trying to apply it:

Does the field actually require more than an undergraduate degree to be successful ?

Did you have actual working experience in the field ? If so, how much...how long ago ?

[In my legacy salad days, I used to fly with captains who said that if they weren't making $XXX,XXX flying an airplane, they'd make that much doing something else because they had a degree in Fancy Engineering from Big Tech University. They never engineered anything and the last engineering problem they solved involved a slide rule]

Does the field require continuing education credits to remain a professional qualification ?

Do you have contacts in the field ? [networking is everything]

There are probably more issues with the conventional wisdom. It's a tough spot to be in. My feeble Plan B centered on the loss of medical certification. So, how to turn flying experience into non-flying aviation employment. I have no idea if my plan would've worked but am sure it wouldn't in the current mess.

It is possible to "retool" one's self but requires a herculean effort. For example, I looked into being an X-ray technician. Reasonable tuition cost, likely employment but two years of full time school...FULL...TIME. And if you want to run a CAT scan or MRI for higher pay, it requires experience and further schooling.

It can be done...just not by me. :)

[Ollie Onion]

I can assure you 'another degree' doesn't help. I did a law degree years ago but haven't done any work in that field for 14 years and apart from a cv filler it hasn't opened any doors to me at the moment as I am not law current in terms of employment. It qualifies me for all the entry level jobs to start building a new career but I would almost be better off going and becoming an electrician apprentice, more bang for my buck. As above, to be really useful I really would need to have 10 years legal experience on my c.v. as well but that would have delayed my flying career by 10 years. If I was starting again I would have done something in computing and maintained a sideline as a freelance web designer or similar.

[krismiler]

Ground staff and cabin crew can easily transition into other customer service areas, for pilots it's not so easy as our skills are highly specialised and narrowly focused. The attributes such as bearing responsibility and making decisions under pressure can help in other areas but they aren't hard paper qualifications. Once you've been out of any field for a long time it becomes hard to get back in, working practices change, new technology develops and new laws are introduced. Show a motor mechanic who last worked on cars in the late 1990s, a brand new vehicle today and he'd be hard pressed to do an oil change.

The ability to sell is a highly useful skill as it never goes out of date, is in demand in most sectors and offers high earning potential.

Nurses have been in such high demand that at times, health authorities have offered to employ and retrain those with previous experience who have been out of the profession for a few years.

The usual fall backs of having a Responsible Server of Alcohol certificate, a taxi driver authorisation or a security guard licence can at least put food on the table between jobs

[Xeptu]

Oh My!!
Today, I am a retiree and I don't even think about working agen, But there was a time when I thought I might, just to give myself something to do while I work it all out.

This is how it went.
Previous skills and quals for which I have many but not used in the previous 5 years, no longer relevant.
Between the time of noticing a job ad that I thought that might be ok and pressing the send button, about 500 down the list in the inbox.(Pre Covid)
Don't expect a reply from more than 1 in 20 applications at all and those that do up to 6 weeks if you followed up.(Pre Covid)
Over 50, don't expect to be taken seriously.
New Australians who haven't mastered the English language are more desirable than you
As it was at the time 457 visa holders, especially in govt jobs more desirable than an Australian born qualified person new to the field.

[Centrex]

Honest question and I mean no malice by this, who regrets becoming a pilot? and if you could do it all over again, what careers would you get into?
I don't think many people on this site would regret becoming a pilot.
Many would regret investing so much on their aviation careers.
An industry with no moral code or ethics, where you can reach the top with an IQ of 97.
A career where you can buy a job but need to be comfortable around soulless snakes.
We had the choice to be Fixers or Fokkers and most chose the later.
To answer your question f1yhigh, I would have got into a career focused on fixing.

[Climb150]

The most recession, 9/11 and CoVID proof qualification I have is a truck licence (Heavy rigid first then semi trailer).

Got the heavy rigid truck licence in mid 90's when the local Tafe did it for $300. I know they are much more expensive now (in Sydney you can get the licence for $1000 atm).

Truck driving isn't glamorous nor will you make a fortune but if you look on Seek right now, you will still see a ton of truck driving jobs. No digging holes or stacking shelves. Air conditioned comfort and listen to music all day.

My main point being is the training won't take 3 years like a degree (usually just 1 or 2 days) and you don't really need to have any sort of currency. It's also a lot cheaper than Uni.

[Xeptu]

Yeah Right! I hold an MC, Class 3 Double B as it was in the day, late 80's even used it for a couple of years an filled a logbook. offered my services during the drought carting hay for free as a community service trying to help. When I told them I haven't driven one since the early 90's they laughed. The days of just driving the truck are long gone.

[non_state_actor]

Truck Driving is the just the same as aviation. Unless you have current experience in higher weights you are just battling it out with all the shonks. Sure there are plenty of jobs for people who have spent 4-5 years driving but you aren't just going to walk up with a license, no experience and start driving HR multi combination.

At the end of the day despite all these know alls on here who think a pilot will waltz into any industry on the planet, reality is unless you are qualified, and have current experience you arent really doing anything just because you are a pilot.

Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.

And those who have experience from other industries tend to be career FOs as they started to late in aviation. Very Very few manage to do both.

[dr dre]

Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.

That’s something I’ve found to be quite common with Aviation employees during this downturn. A lot have qualifications and even substantial experience in another profession, but unless they’ve kept those qualifications current during their time in aviation by basically working two jobs at once they’re finding those qualifications meaningless.

I was always told to get a degree or a trade in a field outside of aviation because one day if there was a downturn having that second qualification would mean I could just walk into a well paid alternate job straight away, but that’s not the case.

[Climb150]

Truck Driving is the just the same as aviation. Unless you have current experience in higher weights you are just battling it out with all the shonks. Sure there are plenty of jobs for people who have spent 4-5 years driving but you aren't just going to walk up with a license, no experience and start driving HR multi combination.

At the end of the day despite all these know alls on here who think a pilot will waltz into any industry on the planet, reality is unless you are qualified, and have current experience you arent really doing anything just because you are a pilot.

Basically you would have had to other qualifications, been working part time in another industry, whilst simultaneously somehow being an airline pilot working unstable shift work. Sure if you have no life or wife and kids it could be done, but I don't see how you could otherwise.

And those who have experience from other industries tend to be career FOs as they started to late in aviation. Very Very few manage to do both.

Current driving a truck? Never heard of that before. Also there is no such thing as a HR combination. I had been away from driving a truck for 5 years and got hired on straight away when AV8 went under.

Driving a truck is like driving a car. Stick to commenting on things you know something about.

[Xeptu]

Current driving a truck? Never heard of that before. Also there is no such thing as a HR combination. I had been away from driving a truck for 5 years and got hired on straight away when AV8 went under.

Driving a truck is like driving a car. Stick to commenting on things you know something about.

Sounds like good advice, I can't remember ever needing a route plan driving a car.

[non_state_actor]

Current driving a truck? Never heard of that before. Also there is no such thing as a HR combination. I had been away from driving a truck for 5 years and got hired on straight away when AV8 went under.

You don't need to be current you just need to have driven professionally at the size the employer wants. I have a HR license from a long time ago but never really used it in anger. Did look into upgrading to MC but discovered the issues stated above. Family have worked in trucking and they got a start by being friends with the owner and working for free, just like aviation!

[krismiler]

Being in the right place at the right time helps in getting any job, as does being willing to do the sort of work those with more experience in the field won’t look at.

[plotplot]

I was always told to get a degree or a trade in a field outside of aviation because one day if there was a downturn having that second qualification would mean I could just walk into a well paid alternate job straight away, but that’s not the case.

This is where a trade is much, much handier than a degree it would seem. Granted for some trades there is a little bit more to it, but not much. Like for a sparkie, pay your yearly license fees, keep up your first aid cert and you're good to go. Some others are even easier like gyprocking, painting, landscaping etc. Most tradies will know a lot of other tradies who'll know a lot of other tradies. A couple of phone calls and I can be on a site by next week if not tomorrow.

[Xeptu]

Some others are even easier like gyprocking, painting, landscaping etc. Most tradies will know a lot of other tradies who'll know a lot of other tradies. A couple of phone calls and I can be on a site by next week if not tomorrow.

Well here's an opportunity for the acid test. Whether you need a job right now or not, how about you make those calls and report back what they say.
My guess is, I think you're in for a rude shock.

[Mach E Avelli]

Well here's an opportunity for the acid test. Whether you need a job right now or not, how about you make those calls and report back what they say.
My guess is, I think you're in for a rude shock.
I tend to agree - unless you can demonstrate skill, no one is likely to want to train you on the job knowing you don't really want to be there and will bugger off back to aviation at the first opportunity.
An alternative would be to go fruit picking with the Pacific Islanders that the farmers are crying out for because our career dole bludgers can't get off their fat arses to do anything useful. and have shown themselves to be un-trainable.
The money might be crap, but think of the positives - working in the sun will improve your fitness beyond anything attainable in the gym and those Islanders could show you a good time with a whole fresh outlook on life.

[plotplot]

I tend to agree - unless you can demonstrate skill, no one is likely to want to train you on the job knowing you don't really want to be there and will bugger off back to aviation at the first opportunity.
An alternative would be to go fruit picking with the Pacific Islanders that the farmers are crying out for because our career dole bludgers can't get off their fat arses to do anything useful. and have shown themselves to be un-trainable.
The money might be crap, but think of the positives - working in the sun will improve your fitness beyond anything attainable in the gym and those Islanders could show you a good time with a whole fresh outlook on life.
I'm not talking about being calling random tradies to try and get work in a trade you've never worked in, and getting trained on the job. I'm talking about having those backgrounds already and being able to pick them back up if required. I may not have made that clear

And I've already made those calls pre-emptively. Job waiting for me no worries. Construction is yet to be drastically affected. At least where I have connections.

[Mach E Avelli]

Plotter you are fortunate if you have a saleable skill. Some pilots (myself included) are not all that good at working for a living. That's why I took up flying in the first place - I tried work and did not like it.
But picking mangoes on an all expenses paid holiday in the tropics; now if I was 20 years younger, needed money and unemployed, I would do that in preference to joining a queue at Centrelink. Dealing with that lot must be quite depressing.

[plotplot]

Plotter you are fortunate if you have a saleable skill. Some pilots (myself included) are not all that good at working for a living. That's why I took up flying in the first place - I tried work and did not like it.
But picking mangoes on an all expenses paid holiday in the tropics; now if I was 20 years younger, needed money and unemployed, I would do that in preference to joining a queue at Centrelink. Dealing with that lot must be quite depressing.

That's true Mach, but as with everything, there is always a trade-off. My years in construction prior to making the switch to aviation has left me in the position of probably being one of those career FO's that someone mentioned earlier, albeit with a solid fall-back option. But I'd pick career FO at 55 over still swinging a hammer at 55 any day of the week.

[Left 270]

I’m in a similar boat to Plot. I was well experienced in my trade before getting into Aviaton, and have the ability to go back to the trades if required, and I have done in the past when Aviation has thrown up the short term difficulty’s that it seems to. But I have to be quite humble about it, I end up working for people that used to work for me, not that that’s an issue but does make it easy to find work,I take a respectable wage that reflects that I’ve not done anything trade related for years outside of my own property, and that my current vehicles don’t exactly allow me to work as I used to be able to. I’m unlikely to get work where I’m currently located either so that’s another difficultly, and like plot, I’m not exactly thrilled of the thought of being on the tools in the latter part of my working life but, if the current situation in aviation doesn’t work out for me well I won’t go broke and could probably spend a few years in the trades and return down the track.

[B772]

I assume the QF pilot Vet is back as a Veterinarian.

[Blueskymine]

I suppose there’s always Uber. We could just drive each other around, make each other coffee and maybe even pour each other beers!

Isn’t that like the rest of the economy? Trickle down economics from the guys digging up dirt and sending it elsewhere?

[Xeptu]

I suppose there’s always Uber. We could just drive each other around, make each other coffee and maybe even pour each other beers!

Isn’t that like the rest of the economy? Trickle down economics from the guys digging up dirt and sending it elsewhere?


Let me introduce you to something relatively new I discovered as a retiree, they are called, "The Mens Shed" community service style organisation where men can go and do those little jobs without having to buy the tools and equipment that you'll use only a couple of times. it's supposed to be for making one off items for use by the community and generally providing a get together for us retired good for nothings :) An alternative to the dog house that every married man is familiar.

[TACQANAVIAVEC]

Remember our corrupt Govt represent ALL Australians, pilots are just a minority group in the scheme of things & the general public would be mortified if the Govt lent a financial hand to a bunch of glorified bus drivers, -)


Funny if you even get on a plane and the **** hits the fan I'd hope your won't have to trust those "glorified bus drivers" up the front for your personal and families safety, I'm guessing praying the rosary is your strategy? That Air India B737 crash a few days ago is what happens when well to put it bluntly the **** hits the fan and your glorified bus drivers weren't very glorified ;:ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

Funny if you even get on a plane and the **** hits the fan I'd hope your won't have to trust those "glorified bus drivers" up the front for your personal and families safety, I'm guessing praying the rosary is your strategy? That Air India B737 crash a few days ago is what happens when well to put it bluntly the **** hits the fan and your glorified bus drivers weren't very glorified ;:ugh:

Definitely agree, HOWEVER.......

Years of cheap fares and almost infinite choice have made air travel all so familiar, and might I say even hum drum. And let’s not forget the inexorable erosion of pilot wages and conditions. All with the effect of rendering a once admired profession to the realm of Bob Hawke’s most infamous statement. That is of course until the **** hits the fan. Then an experienced and professional crew will turn a potentially disastrous situation into no more than a delay. Not only will Joe Public have no idea what was involved in keeping him/her safe, but will probably bitch about being late.

I’m convinced that what was largely responsible for the now distant memory of the great pilot shortage, has also helped drive the final nail into something we were all truly proud of. As far as the rest of society goes, NFI, and couldn’t care less.

But I’m preaching to the choir.

[Easyheat]

This is from luftfart.nu googletranslated from Danish to English, and just the first 2/3 of the article:

The Corona pandemic has left aviation in ruins, and thousands of pilots have been released or bankrupt. After more than 30 years in the air, I do not remember it ever being worse.

The situation has led many pilots to consider what skills a life in aviation has given them. At the country's job centers, bus driving licenses and truck certificates are in full swing. But is that really the only thing the pilots can do? Transporting people and freight from A to B?

Here are some thoughts from me on what I have experienced. My list is not comprehensive enough at all, but then I can make a post more another day.


What can they do then, those pilots?

Demonstrate leadership and collaboration with a wide range of human types.
Analyze complicated contexts - both technical and social.
Prioritize and make decisions in a saturated information environment.
Speak in public, teach and share knowledge.
Demonstrate calm, discipline and flexibility.
An airplane is a small community at 10 kilometers altitude, and the captain is the city mayor. The mate is the deputy mayor. The safe settlement of the flight is a complex teamwork between many people. Although I'm focusing on the pilots here, it takes a lot of people's effort before a plane takes off. They will all be an asset for Danish companies. The whole thing is probably one of the most complex logistical operations carried out on a commercial basis. Getting into all of them here is simply getting too extensive.Being a pilot is more of a management responsibility than anything else. One has to work with a very wide range of personalities. You are in charge of the newly hatched student who has his first job after a life on the school bench and who is suddenly in a demanding industry (and no, the cabin crew is not employed to serve coffee and tea). It takes care and understanding to accommodate the many who are new to jobs. You also have to work with experienced veterans who have spent most of their adult lives in the air - and this makes other demands. There must be collaboration across languages ​​and cultures, as the aviation industry is an international environment - and most have worked abroad for periods. You do not get a long career in the air without a certain amount of social intelligence.
An aircraft is an advanced machine, and its operation is governed by technical insight, established operating procedures (Standard Operating Procedures), complicated rules and a very large flow of information. When you have to act with many different people at the same time, it requires skills in maintaining an overview - separating "dirt from cinnamon" and prioritizing the next action. This is the pilot's everyday life.!

I believe the writer is correct in everything. But I still ask myself, where are all the Hard Skills, that would make me as an employer, employ this guy in a ground job, who has all these soft skills? Hence my remark, that there is IMHO no future in aviation. Comments more than welcome.

[Xeptu]

There are a number of industries that don't have a future. The pandemic just highlights an industry (Airlines) that in this case the very first and deeply impacted by major change. The mind boggles when technology delivers a very small, self contained, unlimited power source that renders the Oil and Gas Industries almost worthless in a very short period of time. It's going to be a major economic impact not unlike a pandemic.