Quarantine if you arrive from Spain from midnight 25/7/2020

[EIFFS]

Sky news reporting that all passengers arriving from Spain from midnight tonight will have to quarantine for 14 days

oh dear me not good news

[ROC10]

Particularly bad for those currently in Spain as they have had no warning.

Nevertheless, we all knew it was a possibility. I’m now glad we gave up hope of a Spanish holiday this year.

[jon01]

TUI cancelled all holidays to Spain now I believe

All thanks to Michael O Leary starting flights too early and putting pressure on the Government to drop the quarantine

[DaveReidUK]

All thanks to Michael O Leary starting flights too early and putting pressure on the Government to drop the quarantine

I think you might find that the actions of the Spanish/Catalan population have been a factor too, rather than the spike in cases being due entirely to arriving Ryanair passengers ...

[LTNman]

Do we need a second thread as there is already a coronavirus thread?

[EIFFS]

Do we need a second thread as there is already a coronavirus thread?


There is, however this is a major reversal of policy that will likely have a devastating impact on recovery of our industry

[Robin757]

Until there is a vaccine or cure there are going to be continued outbreaks every so often. This is going to make planning and booking future foreign flights very difficult.

[LTNman]

Many people had the mindset that the virus was over in Spain. Well the map shows it isn’t as the red zones are increasing daily.

https://i.imgur.com/kL6LOna.jpg

[jon01]

From 26 July, the FCO advises against all non-essential travel to mainland Spain based on the current assessment of COVID-19 risks

[LTNman]

From 26 July, the FCO advises against all non-essential travel to mainland Spain based on the current assessment of COVID-19 risks

Mixed message on the BBC as they contradicted themselves. They said that the quarantine also applies to the Spanish Islands but non essential travel applies only to the mainland.

[Barling Magna]

Gov.UK Foreign Travel Advice:

From 26 July, the FCO advises against all non-essential travel to mainland Spain based on the current assessment of COVID-19 risks. Only the Canary Islands (Tenerife, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria, Lanzarote, La Palma, La Gomera, El Hierro and La Graciosa) and Balearic Islands (Mallorca, Menorca, Ibiza, and Formentera) are exempt from the FCO advice against all non-essential international travel.

This advice is based on evidence of increases in cases of COVID-19 in several regions, but particularly in Aragon, Navarra and Catalonia (which include the cities of Zaragoza, Pamplona and Barcelona).

The FCO is not advising those already travelling in Spain to leave at this time. Travellers should follow the advice of the local authorities on how best to protect themselves and others, including any measures that they bring in to control the virus. If you are returning from Spain (including from the Balearics and Canaries) on or after 26 July you will be required to quarantine on your return to the UK, but the FCO is not advising you to cut short your visit. You should contact your tour operator or airline if you have any questions about your return journey.

[jeepys]

I’m currently on holiday in Majorca (granted it’s not mainland) and there’s hardly anyone here. I feel a darn site safer here than at home.

[Dct_Mopas]

Mixed message on the BBC as they contradicted themselves. They said that the quarantine also applies to the Spanish Islands but non essential travel applies only to the mainland.

That reporting by the BBC is correct, FCO advise is against all but essential travel to mainland Spain. But the quarantine on return applies to the mainland and all the islands. That has changed 3 times in the last 2 hours, but is the current requirement.

[jon01]

Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, flew to Spain this morning. He will now be subject to his own quarantine rules when he returns from holiday!

[valefan16]

Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, flew to Spain this morning. He will now be subject to his own quarantine rules when he returns from holiday!

Was Patel with the policy IIRC but Shapps with the air bridge idea... which ultimately let him down, although dare say he will be exempt due to his job.

[hunterboy]

As someone currently in Spain down on the Costas , one can only despair for the local economy and the airlines . I expect there will be a lot more of this to come , local lockdowns and last minute cancellations. As this is an aviation website , I feel
it appropriate to point out this will decimate our industry as no one in their right mind is going to book a flight anywhere if they fear doors being bolted behind them.
Someone needs to start knocking heads together and get a grip on this .

[LTNman]

Knocking whose heads together? What has happened is the consequence of Spain relaxing rules and people not following prevention measures. Like America, Spain is suffering because of the actions of mainly young people. There are also plenty of videos online of middle aged Brits in holiday mode not following best practice when they have a few beers inside them.

[ericlday]

It does appear that when people go on Holiday they leave their brains at home.....

[DaveReidUK]

Was Patel with the policy IIRC but Shapps with the air bridge idea... which ultimately let him down, although dare say he will be exempt due to his job.

He only went to Spain to test his eyesight ...

[LGW Vulture]

Knocking whose heads together? What has happened is the consequence of Spain relaxing rules and people not following prevention measures. Like America, Spain is suffering because of the actions of mainly young people. There are also plenty of videos online of middle aged Brits in holiday mode not following best practice when they have a few beers inside them.

Spain is not suffering. Take off your media goggles. There are areas where there is a spike, this is being dealt with to prevent further spread. Isolated areas do not constitute a whole country - we here didn't call out the UK when Leicester was locked down.

[PilotLZ]

Spain is not suffering. Take off your media goggles. There are areas where there is a spike, this is being dealt with to prevent further spread. Isolated areas do not constitute a whole country - we here didn't call out the UK when Leicester was locked down.
Very good example. Why quarantine people coming from the areas which are exempt from the FCO advice against non-essential travel? There is probably a sound reason behind said exemption, namely that the situation there is a long way better than in Catalonia, Aragon or the other affected mainland areas. Tour operators and airlines should demand clarification on this matter.

[LTNman]

Worth looking again at the map on post 8 which is Spanish and not sourced from the U.K.. Infections are increasing fast and are no longer stabilised. There is a lag from infection to showing symptoms and getting tested.

[valefan16]

Worth looking again at the map on post 8 which is Spanish and not sourced from the U.K.. Infections are increasing fast and are no longer stabilised. There is a lag from infection to showing symptoms and getting tested.

According to news they have about 280 clusters reported alone at the moment; although do think the Balearics and Canaries should be exempt at the moment at least.

[Icelanta]

Absolute bullcrap.

There are some areas in Spain where there are high increases, mainly due to some very high cluster cases, but almost ALL of them in Aragon and Catalonia.
The Generalidad Valencia for example has sen only a slight increase in caseload, and measures have been taken immediately.

his is again another imbecile UK reaction. They should better look at their own people not adhering to the laws in Spain and in the UK itself.

[SWBKCB]

his is again another imbecile UK reaction. They should better look at their own people not adhering to the laws in Spain and in the UK itself.

Isn't it easy to snipe from the sidelines when you have no responsibility? How does the UK govt control it citizens in Spain? Stop them travelling?

[LTNman]

No doubt the same suspects here would be the first to criticise the government if their reaction was slow. Maybe the government has been watching a few YouTube clips and have been proactive.

https://youtu.be/gpxdyRd3S9E

With a partial restriction no doubt the BBC would be sending a news team to the hidden line saying this side is deemed safe by the U.K. government and this side requires quarantine, while everyone switches airports.

[lear999wa]

All for a virus which appears to have an overall survivability rate of better then 99.7%.

[ATNotts]

LTNman

The government is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Over face masks they got a kicking for delaying their introduction; now they're getting a kicking for acting swiftly. The media, and the people, can't have it both ways.

[LTNman]

Lets just hope a vaccine comes sooner rather than later as this is going to be the new norm otherwise there will be no tourist industry left to save.

[bex88]

lear999wa.......agreed. Our response can’t be the same as it has been otherwise we will destroy the very fabric of society and our economy. We should fear poverty and social breakdown more. A far more sensible balanced approach is needed.

Does anyone else feel like the uk government has no leader, just lots of politicians shouting out off the cuff policies without even talking to each other first? :ugh:

[PilotLZ]

lear999wa.......agreed. Our response can’t be the same as it has been otherwise we will destroy the very fabric of society and our economy. We should fear poverty and social breakdown more. A far more sensible balanced approach is needed.
You're totally right. It's very superficial to think that "it's only tourism, hospitality and airlines taking the hit". When 20% of all people in a country don't have jobs any longer, two things happen. First, the state has to spend loads of money providing some form of unemployment benefits to them - and the state money is not unlimited, especially in times of reduced budget income from taxes. Second, those people severely cut back on their discretional spending. It's not just that they don't go on holidays. They also refrain from buying clothes, gadgets, going to the cinema or eating out - not to mention that unemployed people don't normally buy cars or buy and furnish homes. This results in a massive decline for many industries, eventually leading to further bankruptcies and job losses. And the spiral keeps going down. Does a country in such a dire predicament have the resources to also ramp up its health care system? I think not. So, the economic crisis has the potential of also deepening the health care one. Hence, blanket bans shall not be a thing if we are to come out of this as a functional society with minimal losses.

[GROUNDHOG]

LTNman

The government is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Over face masks they got a kicking for delaying their introduction; now they're getting a kicking for acting swiftly. The media, and the people, can't have it both ways.
Totally agree with you ATNotts

[Barling Magna]

Does anyone else feel like the uk government has no leader, just lots of politicians shouting out off the cuff policies without even talking to each other first? :ugh:

I have some sympathy for the government in this unprecedented situation (since 1918/19 anyway), but I agree that the standard of leadership has been poor. I wonder if the PM is fully recovered from the virus and his eminence grise Dominic Cummings is, at best, eccentric. Whilst some Cabinet ministers have performed well others have been lamentable. The failure to address the crisis facing the aviation sector of the UK has been alarming compared with the actions of other countries such as the USA ($25 billion), Germany (9 billion Euros), France (15 billion Euros) and Italy.

[Jonty]

I think what I find most disappointing is the governments blanket approach to Spain. Most of the Canaries and Balearics have very low incidents of Covid-19. So why lump them in with the rest of Spain? I understand that you can travel to Palma from Barcelona and then travel to the UK, but that the same for Barcelona via anywhere in Europe. You’re relying on people being sensible and following the rules, because they are pretty much unenforceable. And if thats the case, you can be very nuanced in how you approach travel bans.

[2Planks]

I think one of the contributing factors is that the whole of Spain will go on holiday this week. Having lived there for 4 years the right to spend August on the beach is almost a Spanish human right. Madrid will empty this week as they head in all directions of the compass to the beach. It would not surprise me if Spain sees a massive surge next week.

[olster]

Utter insanity. Devastating airline and ancillary industries. No thought, logic or common sense. At least why can’t the Balearics and Canaries be exempt? We can’t continue to lockdown indefinitely because it is unaffordable. Take suitable precautions, don’t balloon to 20 stone, wash your hands and get on with life using sensible risk management. Hopeless uk governance.

[Jonty]

Utter insanity. Devastating airline and ancillary industries. No thought, logic or common sense. At least why can’t the Balearics and Canaries be exempt? We can’t continue to lockdown indefinitely because it is unaffordable. Take suitable precautions, don’t balloon to 20 stone, wash your hands and get on with life using sensible risk management. Hopeless uk governance.

Spot on! This virus will be here for decades, and will become endemic in the human population. The sooner we learn to live with it, the better.

[Barling Magna]

Why should the UK government join other countries in actively financially supporting its air transport sector? Just look at the economics of this. The air transport industry, including airlines and its supply chain, are estimated to support US $86 billion of GDP in the United Kingdom. Spending by foreign tourists supports a further US $34 billion of the country’s GDP, amounting to 4.5% of the annual GDP of the UK. Enough said.

[racedo]

Utter insanity. Devastating airline and ancillary industries. No thought, logic or common sense. At least why can’t the Balearics and Canaries be exempt? We can’t continue to lockdown indefinitely because it is unaffordable. Take suitable precautions, don’t balloon to 20 stone, wash your hands and get on with life using sensible risk management. Hopeless uk governance.


Idiot Govt thinking............... Canary Islands is Spain so lock it down, infections rising in Catalonia so must be close as it is also Spain. It is the equivalent for locking down Shetland Islands because there has been a huge spike in cases in Newquay

[davidjohnson6]

If the quarantine rule was to be applied to all of Turkey because of an outbreak in Ankara, would people about to travel to Spain be complaining so much ?

[racedo]

If the quarantine rule was to be applied to all of Turkey because of an outbreak in Ankara, would people about to travel to Spain be complaining so much ?

yes

Just like banning incoming from people from Vancouver because of an outbreak in Newfoundland.

[TYTOENG232]

I have been here since March but have been trying to get back to the UK since May. After 3 cancelled flights my next one is 15th August. We will see! There are hardly any cases here in Mallorca but since the Brits and Germans have been arriving for the last 2 weeks social distancing has gone out of window. We are required to wear masks all the time now since last week. Very few visitors wearing them.

[Wallsendmag]

Idiot Govt thinking............... Canary Islands is Spain so lock it down, infections rising in Catalonia so must be close as it is also Spain. It is the equivalent for locking down Shetland Islands because there has been a huge spike in cases in Newquay
From 26 July, the FCO advises against all non-essential travel to mainland Spain based on the current assessment of COVID-19 risks. Only the Canary Islands (Tenerife, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria, Lanzarote, La Palma, La Gomera, El Hierro and La Graciosa) and Balearic Islands (Mallorca, Menorca, Ibiza, and Formentera) are exempt from the FCO advice against all non-essential international travel. Sorry didn't read far enough for the quarantine info

[LBAflyer22]

Idiot Govt thinking............... Canary Islands is Spain so lock it down, infections rising in Catalonia so must be close as it is also Spain. It is the equivalent for locking down Shetland Islands because there has been a huge spike in cases in Newquay

Would you expect anything else from an Idiot who's running the Home Office? Priti Patel is pretty useless.

[Typhoon Tripacer]

All for a virus which appears to have an overall survivability rate of better then 99.7%.

I think closer to 99.9% and of those that die 9 out of 10 are over 70 and already sick. It should also be noted that Spain learnt to count Covid-19 deaths properly at the end of May and since then they have had a daily death rate of just 2 to 3 people. The stupid knee jerk and hysterical reaction of the UK government has probably just added another 20,000 job losses to the millions now coming through.

[gsky]

I think closer to 99.9% and of those that die 9 out of 10 are over 70 and already sick. It should also be noted that Spain learnt to count Covid-19 deaths properly at the end of May and since then they have had a daily death rate of just 2 to 3 people. The stupid knee jerk and hysterical reaction of the UK government has probably just added another 20,000 job losses to the millions now coming through.

I think it is a knee jerk reaction but the Govt gets blamed for taking too long , then acting quickly. damned if you do, damned if you dont.
However according the worldmeter stats ( which I believe are reasonably accurate??) I think they show the date rate, globally at around 6%. which is one hell of a lot more than your stated .01%
and the UK death rates officially near to 15% so i think this less than 1% often stated needs to be revisited!!

[PilotLZ]

I think it is a knee jerk reaction but the Govt gets blamed for taking too long , then acting quickly. damned if you do, damned if you dont.
However according the worldmeter stats ( which I believe are reasonably accurate??) I think they show the date rate, globally at around 6%. which is one hell of a lot more than your stated .01%
and the UK death rates officially near to 15% so i think this less than 1% often stated needs to be revisited!!
Worldometer shows the fatality rate among known cases. The real number of cases, most of which mild or asymptomatic, is higher by orders of magnitude. At least this is what antibody testing tends to show. The vast majority of PCR tests are conducted among those who either have symptoms or are known to have been in contact with someone infected. God knows how many untested, undetected cases with mild or no symptoms are booting around as we speak.

Back on the original topic of travel quarantine - have we got a legal eagle here who can explain whether or not quarantine for arrivals from the islands is legally enforceable? Given that there's no FCO advice against non-essential travel to those marvellous places, on the grounds of what can a quarantine order be imposed?

[SloppyJoe]

Also if someone dies of a heart attack, cancer, old age and they have covid, the death is recorded as a covid death. The only sensible way for this to go is to isolate those over 70, or with an underlying health condition that puts them at risk. Properly isolate, not this go shopping once a week, exercise outdoors every day etc. The rest of the population should just get on with life, it would be over within a year and the economy would survive. The madness that seems to have enveloped the world is only set to prolong this for years. It will not go away until enough of the population have had it. More people will die with the current strategy as the elderly and those at risk are exposed to a longer period of this being a problem. A vaccine has never been developed for any coronavirus, ever. Total utter madness driven by politicians looking to get more votes and the media. Insanity!

[SWBKCB]

The only sensible way for this to go is to isolate those over 70, or with an underlying health condition that puts them at risk.

Or put another way, everybody over 70 is put under house arrest so you can swan about rather than acting like a grown-up??

[bex88]

SWBKCD, I think your response is unjustified. The vulnerable groups like all groups need to take responsibility for themselves. We cannot protect a minority by actively destroying the livelihoods and lives of millions who are at little risk. Without a functioning economy we will not be able to provide the resources to tackle this crisis. I would worry more about the associated social and economic costs of a depression than a virus which evidently is mild for the vast majority.

Put Covid measures in place, let people make their choices and get back to work.

[EIFFS]

Utter insanity. Devastating airline and ancillary industries. No thought, logic or common sense. At least why can’t the Balearics and Canaries be exempt? We can’t continue to lockdown indefinitely because it is unaffordable. Take suitable precautions, don’t balloon to 20 stone, wash your hands and get on with life using sensible risk management. Hopeless uk governance.


Because people will fly BCN to PMI to dodge the 14 days

[SWBKCB]

SWBKCD, I think your response is unjustified. The vulnerable groups like all groups need to take responsibility for themselves. We cannot protect a minority by actively destroying the livelihoods and lives of millions who are at little risk. Without a functioning economy we will not be able to provide the resources to tackle this crisis. I would worry more about the associated social and economic costs of a depression than a virus which evidently is mild for the vast majority.

Put Covid measures in place, let people make their choices and get back to work.

Except if you are over 70, can they not make choices?

[22/04]

The case is out on a virus but new RNA viruses are aa distinct possibility and there hasn't been a lot been a lot of impetus to develop vaccines for many milder coronaviruses.
But the quarantine measures should definitely not at present include the islands and probably not some parts of Spain. The rea problem in the UK is that the government doesn't seem able to make measured timely appropriate decisions at at.

[PilotLZ]

Because people will fly BCN to PMI to dodge the 14 days
And is there anything to stop them from dodging the 14 days by flying to a country which does qualify for quarantine exemption and taking a flight to the UK from there? Not being ironic, not suggesting that anyone should try it, just asking.

[Radgirl]

Also if someone dies of a heart attack, cancer, old age and they have covid, the death is recorded as a covid death

A lot of noise about death counting and certainly not being done well in England, but we will have to wait for the Inquiry to learn more. The law that applies to doctors, who are the only people except coroners that can sign death certificates, has not changed so I would be acting outside the law if I put the cause of death as covid when it was a heart attack. However if the covid caused a heart attack I should put covid as a cause on the death certificate. The death certificate is my diagnosis and not the laboratory findings. So I would like to know whether someone civil servant is counting a death as covid when the doctor hasnt put covid as the cause but merely listed it under 'other conditions' which were not a cause of death.

The only sensible way for this to go is to isolate those over 70, or with an underlying health condition that puts them at risk.

Although these are the groups most at risk you cant assume others can just ignore the pandemic. Children under 11 can, and many young adults remain asymptomatic, but we know a significant number are pauci symptomatic. A recent paper from the Netherlands has shown 90% of these may have difficulty with daily activities three months later. The under 70s may not often die but they may have long and possibly lifelong disabilities.

[LTNman]

No one here criticising the Scottish government who were the last to open up Spain and closed it down again at the same time as the other devolved governments. Why would that be or is this just about England and people making political points?

The fact is that all 4 governments have acted in unity so they must be worried.

[etrang]

Also if someone dies of a heart attack, cancer, old age and they have covid, the death is recorded as a covid death. The only sensible way for this to go is to isolate those over 70, or with an underlying health condition that puts them at risk. Properly isolate, not this go shopping once a week, exercise outdoors every day etc. The rest of the population should just get on with life, it would be over within a year and the economy would survive. The madness that seems to have enveloped the world is only set to prolong this for years. It will not go away until enough of the population have had it. More people will die with the current strategy as the elderly and those at risk are exposed to a longer period of this being a problem. A vaccine has never been developed for any coronavirus, ever. Total utter madness driven by politicians looking to get more votes and the media. Insanity!

There have been vaccines developed for some corona viruses.

[2Planks]

LTNman, exactly. Nobody seems to be squealing about Norway imposing similar rules. And more notably the Spanish Government is saying a 2nd wave is imminent and are only lobbying the UK to relax the rules for the Islands. To expand on my previous post a quick FR24 check shows 15 MAD-TFN today and 11 yesterday. The Islands are filling up with the City dwellers.

I know this is uncomfortable reading for most on here, but if we don't protect the UK economy then there will be no money for holidays. The uncomfortable truth is leisure is discretionary. The industry must look beyond the immediate hysterics of Karen and Wayne on Facebook. Hopefully the call centres and ops are busy booking extra flights and hotels in Greece and places with far lower infection rates.

[OldLurker]

I would like to know whether someone civil servant is counting a death as covid when the doctor hasnt put covid as the cause but merely listed it under 'other conditions' which were not a cause of death.Yes, apparently Public Heath England are, or have been, mis-counting deaths, but not by looking at death certificates so no doctor was involved. The clever idea was to record everyone who tests positive for Covid-19, then periodically they'd get a list of all deaths, and if someone in that list had tested positive, they counted it as a Covid-19 death. What could go wrong? If I'd tested positive and then fell under a bus weeks later, they'd have counted me as a Covid death. They've been called out on it: watch this space.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53443724 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53443724)

[Alsacienne]

The vulnerable groups like all groups need to take responsibility for themselves.

That's all well and good bex88. It has been made clear by health authorities and researchers all over the world what the likely factors are to define 'vulnerability' ... age, concurrent medical conditions, social situation, density of housing, number of persons in a household etc.

But sadly, there are some groups that are equally vulnerable because they willingly place themselves and others at risk ... but do not have neither the understanding nor the intelligence to realise it. And of course there are also groups who are sufficiently egotistical that they can only consider their rights, their point of view or get a buzz from rebelling against what they consider to be 'authority'. The sort of vulnerability exhibited by these groups shows that some groups are unable to take responsibility, and it isn't just a question of how many years they have under their belts.

[Asturias56]

The problem isn't really the death rate - its that so few people have had Covid - only about 300,000 in the UK - that means 66 million people haven't had it. If half of them catch it and only 3% require hospitalisation (currently its 20%) that a million hospital beds needed plus all the staff etc. That's why they are so scared

[bex88]

Except if you are over 70, can they not make choices?

Thats my point. Give guidance and advice and let people make their own choices. One of my parents is in the shielding group. They have decided how they wish to shield and to what extent based on risk and what they find acceptable. What they are not doing is demanding that everyone else shield and isolate too.

[lear999wa]

I think it is a knee jerk reaction but the Govt gets blamed for taking too long , then acting quickly. damned if you do, damned if you dont.
However according the worldmeter stats ( which I believe are reasonably accurate??) I think they show the date rate, globally at around 6%. which is one hell of a lot more than your stated .01%
and the UK death rates officially near to 15% so i think this less than 1% often stated needs to be revisited!!


This is the problem with the public perception of Covid-19. People assume that it is far more deadly then it is in actual fact. Yes I will be the first to admit that their are large swaths of society, who as a hole are much more at risk then the average person reading this forum. More so it might not kill you but rather leave you disabled. Having said this the infection fatality rate (IFR), or colloquially, the death rate. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention currently has a best estimate of the fatality rate from 0.26% to 0.65%.
To put this into context seasonal flue has a IFR of 0.1%
So when asked if I fear covid-19 my answer is yes ofcourse I fear it; I fear it 3 times more then I fear the seasonal flue. However I don't feel that it is a worthy cause to sacrifice my job, and or my income.
​​​​​​
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01738-2

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/how-deadly-is-the-coronavirus-the-true-fatality-rate-is-tricky-to-find-but-researchers-are-getting-closer-141426

[Typhoon Tripacer]

The problem isn't really the death rate - its that so few people have had Covid - only about 300,000 in the UK

Sorry that is just plain wrong. There have been 300,000 identified cases but in fact they can measure 17% of people in London have antibodies. Other research shows that 2 to possibly 3 times as many have immunity from hard to detect T cells. See Karolinska Institute T Cell study.

[LTNman]

It is not only the deaths it is the long term damage to people who live. That includes those that didn’t need to go to hospital.

[valefan16]

The issue originally was we knew so little about it which scared people but the more we see it seems the death rate is extremely low.

Some estimates suggest 80% don’t even have a symptom, I know of 2 who have had it (husband and wife) of all my contacts in life and the biggest gripe was he couldn’t taste his Chinese! Of course a tiny proportion usually with underlying issues have it far worse. We are getting suggestion now the death rate so high in the U.K. isn’t entirely correct as PHE just throw anyone who’s died who had coronavirus at any point in the figures even if killed by a car crash, suicide or any other ailment.

The images in Italy were far worse than we saw here but we look far worse than it probably was.

i just hope if we have to live with it we find a way to get some normality back.

[AirportPlanner1]

A few points in response to comments.

Whether the PM is still unfit from his bout of Covid is irrelevant, the biggest failures took place throughout February and into March well before he had it. Everything else leads back to that. Also although implications of having the virus aren’t fully understood I don’t believe they include allowing lockdown-breaking drives to County Durham to go unpunished.

Acting decisively in this case is to be applauded and I personally agree with it. But yet again it’s been done in an inconsistent and slapdash way. It should have been immediate or from 3am for example, after all flights are in. As it was, you had flights arriving just before midnight from higher risk areas with no quarantine and some a few minutes later who are locked up for 14 days.

[The96er]

Of the estimated thousands of Brits currently in Spain, how many of those are realistically going to abide by the 14 day quarantine. I’m guessing maybe only a few - I think the Government are well aware of that. They have neither the resources nor the inclination to follow through with any chasing up. This seems more of a nod and a wink kind of ruling to me.

[LTNman]

Think you are nit picking. There was no good time to do this but once the 4 nations decided to act they acted quickly. The public were warned this could happen and it did. Taking a foreign holiday during a pandemic was always going to be risky.

The Government has always been accused of acting slowly but now they have acted quickly they still get criticised.

[SWBKCB]

The public were warned this could happen and it did. Taking a foreign holiday during a pandemic was always going to be risky.

Yes - everybody is quick to criticise the governments decision making....

[GS-Alpha]

I do find it entertaining when ‘experts‘ on here are talking about the death rate and how Cov19 is not dangerous and we should just be allowed to get on with our lives. Humanity’s knowledge of this virus is still practically nonexistent. Just because someone does not die within a month or two of contagion does not necessarily mean Cov19 is not something that must be taken incredibly seriously - perhaps it will kill them a year later, or perhaps the next time they catch it, or perhaps it will simply dramatically reduce fertility, or dramatically increase cancer rates, or a whole host of other possibilities. There are already widespread reports of some pretty serious issues even for people who were never hospitalised. I totally agree the economy is really important, and aviation is a part of that, but this being a brand new highly infectious virus really is a very big deal, and I do not blame the government for doing their very best to minimise outside infection. In the grand scheme of things, who gives a monkeys about holidays to Spain, or indeed anywhere else? I think a few people on here need to remember that we still do not actually know that this virus is not the one which will wipe out humanity! I know that is alarmist, but it is the scary truth. Too many people are not treating this virus with the respect it warrants.

[valefan16]

I do find it entertaining when ‘experts‘ on here are talking about the death rate and how Cov19 is not dangerous and we should just be allowed to get on with our lives. Humanity’s knowledge of this virus is still practically nonexistent. Just because someone does not die within a month or two of contagion does not necessarily mean Cov19 is not something that must be taken incredibly seriously - perhaps it will kill them a year later, or perhaps the next time they catch it, or perhaps it will simply dramatically reduce fertility, or dramatically increase cancer rates, or a whole host of other possibilities. There are already widespread reports of some pretty serious issues even for people who were never hospitalised. I totally agree the economy is really important, and aviation is a part of that, but this being a brand new highly infectious virus really is a very big deal, and I do not blame the government for doing their very best to minimise outside infection. In the grand scheme of things, who gives a monkeys about holidays to Spain, or indeed anywhere else? I think a few people on here need to remember that we still do not actually know that this virus is not the one which will wipe out humanity! I know that is alarmist, but it is the scary truth. Too many people are not treating this virus with the respect it warrants.

Whilst it does warrant respect (and by how much nations worldwide have wrecked their economies because of it you can say it has had that respect) I think to suggest it could be an extinction event is probably miles over the top. Even with fractional medication compared to today, plagues and various other pandemics have come and hit the human race (and all other species) and not had that effect.

Life needs to go on, purely because any vaccine may not work and we live as a species that relies on jobs/money to exist.

Weve travelled to Greece this past fortnight, seen first hand the struggles their resorts are facing for instance, but had a great time and all done with controlling the virus in mind (tested, distancing, tracing) and of 6000 plus tests on U.K. pax only 2 positive and isolated (2 others were transit of Cypriot and French origin).

The Spanish situation shows its volatile and not without some risk but for now this is the new normal. People want to travel and should do so without being slated for it, if people wish to not travel abroad then that is fair enough, but life most go on as best we can.

[SWBKCB]

People want to travel and should do so without being slated for it,

Conversely, if you decide to travel and that decision comes back and bites you on the bum, don't whinge about it.

[GS-Alpha]

I agree it is probably miles over the top, but the point is we do not yet know just what damage this virus is doing to us. Immediate death rate is just one part of the equation. It is already very clear that there is a lot more to this virus than its percentage mortality rate soon after infection. People making comparisons with the flu death rate for instance, and concluding that the economic cost has already been too high, are very much counting their chickens before they have hatched. I am very afraid of the economic fallout, but I am far more afraid of the damage the virus itself is doing.

[etrang]

The economy will recover sooner or later. Dead people won't.

[FMS82]

I am not in any position to judge if these measures are knee-jerk or over the top. I do think government to not take such decisions lightly, and trust them when they do so. Why we need to be careful with this nasty virus has been demonstrated in Italy, South Korea and Iran in the earlier stages of the pandemic. It's also still happening in big parts of the US as we speak. It's not pretty and am amazed people still haven't fully appreciated the potential this has to completely overwhelm a functioning health system.

Now knowing all of that, and knowing every government has their finger on the trigger to return to more stringent rules, it's beyond me what those people are doing so far from home in the first place. Little sympathy for those affected by this entirely predictable mess.

[Walnut]

What is daft that no checks are made on arriving airline pax, It seems that after 5 days of infection a test would be effective. It seems the argument that the first 5 days of “doubt” makes screening ineffective, surely to catch 2/3rds of infections is useful.
if it was a requirement that a further test was done at 5 days then Q could be reduced to 5 days?

[jadrolinija]

The economy will recover sooner or later. Dead people won't.

It is like saying "dead people will die anyway one day.

Economy pays for food. Pays doctors and medical personnel that won't work for free. It is interesting to see how everyone underestimates economy power. Economic fallout brings people on a street, revolutions, mental illness and depression, higher crime rate resulting in more killed than died due to virus.

And if this virus lasts for 10 years, we should #stayathome until 2030?

[stormin norman]

So the UK transport minister goes on holiday during the biggest economic crisis since the war.

Whee are the rest of the Cabinet - Butlins ?

[Alsacienne]

Whee are the rest of the Cabinet - Butlins ?

No, more like Maplins ... after all their normal place of work is Butlins.

[El Grifo]

Whilst it is clear that there are flare-ups in some areas of Mainland Spain, flare-ups that are certainly cause for concern, Covid 19 is firmly under control in here the Canary Islands. In Lanzarote for example, we have 11 active cases.
2 being English tourists with the remainder being 9 people from a boat bringing illegal immigrants from the African Continent.
Flights and Holidays from thev UK are stiil permitted but the 2 week quarantine rule still applies.
The Islands are located 1000km from Mainland Spain, the Covid numbers are extremely low.
The decision to include them in the quarantine rules, seems like a badly thought out, knee jerk reaction from a government, who throughout this entire crisis, has appeared at times, clueless in its actions !

[bcn_boy]

Turkey has a similar increase in the number of cases of coronavirus reaching 927 cases compared with Spain’s 971. Will Raab impose the same quarantine restrictions on U.K. holidaymakers returning back from Turkey?

[anothertyke]

It is like saying "dead people will die anyway one day.

Economy pays for food. Pays doctors and medical personnel that won't work for free. It is interesting to see how everyone underestimates economy power. Economic fallout brings people on a street, revolutions, mental illness and depression, higher crime rate resulting in more killed than died due to virus.

And if this virus lasts for 10 years, we should #stayathome until 2030?

Which is why we have to reopen the economy cautiously, minimising the risks of further waves and restricting freedoms in order to manage the risks while running the economy. So travel and tourism is caught right in the middle of that.

At the moment there is a reasonable chance of a successful vaccine, If that bet fails then we move on to living with the virus long term and that will change the shape of international travel among other things, not because of Governments but because of human behaviour.

[harriewillem]

TUI cancelled all holidays to Spain now I believe

All thanks to Michael O Leary starting flights too early and putting pressure on the Government to drop the quarantine

You can blame MOL for loads.. but this... come on... stupid people whodo not know how to behave....

[davidjohnson6]

Turkey has a similar increase in the number of cases of coronavirus reaching 927 cases compared with Spain’s 971. Will Raab impose the same quarantine restrictions on U.K. holidaymakers returning back from Turkey?

Population of Spain is 47m while Turkey is 83m
The important things is cases per million of population - ie you worry more if similiar number of cases in a small population than a big population. A country with a bigger population would be expected to have more cases

927 cases in 83m people = 11 cases per million Turks
971 cases in 47m people = 21 cases per million Spaniards

[PiggyBack]

LTNman

The government is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Over face masks they got a kicking for delaying their introduction; now they're getting a kicking for acting swiftly. The media, and the people, can't have it both ways.

Actually the media can (and do) have it both ways, regularily. That is perhaps why the political system is becoming increasingly disfunctional a process that has reached its apogee, or should that be nadir, in the US. When everything - the prudent and the inprudent, the consistent and the inconsistent, the rational and the irrational is criticsed in the same way it opens the door for politics completely disconnected from evidence, facts and analysis.

Clearly this is a disaster for all business connected to international travel. Anything but the most essential travel is going to be seen as unnacceptably risky for most.

[16024]

The government is damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Over face masks they got a kicking for delaying their introduction; now they're getting a kicking for acting swiftly. The media, and the people, can't have it both ways.

Actually the media can (and do) have it both ways, regularily. That is perhaps why the political system is becoming increasingly disfunctional a process that has reached its apogee, or should that be nadir, in the US. When everything - the prudent and the inprudent, the consistent and the inconsistent, the rational and the irrational is criticsed in the same way it opens the door for politics completely disconnected from evidence, facts and analysis.

Clearly this is a disaster for all business connected to international travel. Anything but the most essential travel is going to be seen as unacceptably risky for most.

Nobody is much interested in which way the media are having it. This is really happening, regardless of which spin you put on it.
It is disturbing, on an aviation forum to read the point of view that you can't be too fast AND too slow to deal with a problem, or that your response could be inappropriately active AND inappropriately inactive.
So it is no good excusing government response with "Damned if they do...".
You need to do the right thing at the right time. That's why they are in the left seat!

[PiggyBack]

@16204

You seem to have completely misunderstood the point of my post and that of ATNotts.

Everyone woudl agree that the government should do the right thing although I don't think everyone would necessarily agree what that is, and it often isn't clear.
I think decisions abput Covid19 should be biased towards a faster response and more action than less action as regards trying to control transmission for all sorts of reasons not relevant to this post. However the point of my post is that whatever the government does even if it is in line with experience and expert opinion they will be criticised and the point of ATNotts post and my post is that they will be criticised for those decisions even when the same media outlets were calling for the decision concerned and criticising them in the immediate past for not making the same decision. This is the reality and I don't think you should be disturbed by reading it on a forum, aviation or otherwise.
What you should be diusturbed by is the corrosive affect this uniform treatment of all actions justified or unjustified, reasonable and unreasonable is having on the political culture and governance of western democracies generally.

[bcn_boy]

Population of Spain is 47m while Turkey is 83m
The important things is cases per million of population - ie you worry more if similiar number of cases in a small population than a big population. A country with a bigger population would be expected to have more cases

927 cases in 83m people = 11 cases per million Turks
971 cases in 47m people = 21 cases per million Spaniards
But is this the calculation that the Government is using? Doubtful. Turkey hides it’s official number similar to China yet this Government designates it as a safe destination knowing fully that this is a lie.

[davidjohnson6]

If the data cannot be relied upon, then we are into the realms of guesswork and it becomes impossible for ordinary people without access to MI6 to form any sort of conclusion

[16024]

Piggyback:
Unjustified or unreasonable actions should attract scrutiny. That isn’t really corrosive to democracy.
If I misunderstand your stance I apologise. ATNotts seemed to suggest that some actions were criticised for being too slow, and some for being too fast. Yes, I believe this is the case, regardless of the media position . There’s no inconsistency in these criticisms.

[Tartiflette Fan]

The decision to include them in the quarantine rules, seems like a badly thought out, knee jerk reaction from a government, who throughout this entire crisis, has appeared at times, clueless in its actions !

As has been said, it is possible to fly from the mainland to the islands, and there are undoubtedly lots of Costas holiday-makers who would do that to avoid 14 days quarantine in the UK with loss of earnings.

[inOban]

But is this the calculation that the Government is using? Doubtful. Turkey hides it’s official number similar to China yet this Government designates it as a safe destination knowing fully that this is a lie.
I keep reading claims that Turkey and/or China are lying. I've yet to see any evidence. The usual check is the number of excess deaths above the normal for the time of year.

[ATNotts]

@16204

You seem to have completely misunderstood the point of my post and that of ATNotts.

Everyone woudl agree that the government should do the right thing although I don't think everyone would necessarily agree what that is, and it often isn't clear.
I think decisions abput Covid19 should be biased towards a faster response and more action than less action as regards trying to control transmission for all sorts of reasons not relevant to this post. However the point of my post is that whatever the government does even if it is in line with experience and expert opinion they will be criticised and the point of ATNotts post and my post is that they will be criticised for those decisions even when the same media outlets were calling for the decision concerned and criticising them in the immediate past for not making the same decision. This is the reality and I don't think you should be disturbed by reading it on a forum, aviation or otherwise.
What you should be diusturbed by is the corrosive affect this uniform treatment of all actions justified or unjustified, reasonable and unreasonable is having on the political culture and governance of western democracies generally.

As I have posted on the Jet2 thread, i realised this morning why the Balearics and Canaries can't be exempted - and it's probably down not to risk, but to the Home Office arrival declaration form that has no field to enter the region or city that you are returning from; just the country. I would lay a small bet that when the IT people have added a new field suddenly, hey presto! quarantine rules from the Spanish Islands will be lifted.

[DaveReidUK]

As I have posted on the Jet2 thread, i realised this morning why the Balearics and Canaries can't be exempted - and it's probably down not to risk, but to the Home Office arrival declaration form that has no field to enter the region or city that you are returning from; just the country.

I don't think that's the reason. The system seems to be able to cope with a restriction on Portugal, but one which exempts arrivals from Madeira and the Azores.

[DON T]

What happens to aircrew that have returned on a flight from Spain?

[ATNotts]

I don't think that's the reason. The system seems to be able to cope with a restriction on Portugal, but one which exempts arrivals from Madeira and the Azores.
I hadn't realised that Madeira and The Azores were exempt. That blows my theory out of the water.!

I have just checked the gov.uk website, and neither The Azores nor Madeira are excluded, unless I am missing something.

[bcn_boy]

I keep reading claims that Turkey and/or China are lying. I've yet to see any evidence. The usual check is the number of excess deaths above the normal for the time of year.
Turkey has been silencing it’s nurses and doctors, many have been arrested for speaking out about the dire situation in Turkey. Access to social media has been severely restricted and those found posting any negative comments about the virus or that of the governments handling have been arrested and their posts removed or had threats against their person and families. There are many documented cases by various NGO’s whose reports are available across the Internet. Istanbul has in excess of 40k extra deaths in the first three months of this year.

[PiggyBack]

Piggyback:
Unjustified or unreasonable actions should attract scrutiny. That isn’t really corrosive to democracy.
If I misunderstand your stance I apologise. ATNotts seemed to suggest that some actions were criticised for being too slow, and some for being too fast. Yes, I believe this is the case, regardless of the media position . There’s no inconsistency in these criticisms.

All actions should attract scrutiny, for how do we know it is reasonable without scrutinising it?
What has corroded public discourse and politics is it doesn't matter what policy is followed it will be strongly criticised in emotive terms and it will be criticised in exactly the same terms whether it is reasonable or unreasonable. Moreover it will be criticised in the same strong terms even if the latest policy is following the advice given by the media in the last round of criticism. This has eroded faith in evidence, politics and the political system, experts, science in general and helped to undermine any consensus, common ground or cooperation between political rivals. You can se ethe results in the US and it is not a healthy situation. Constructive balanced criticism is not an issue. Synthetic outrage at everything trivialises and infantalises what are important decisions.

[dastocks]

There is, however this is a major reversal of policy that will likely have a devastating impact on recovery of our industry
The policy was quite clear that countries/territories could be added/removed from the list of exemptions to the general quarantine requirement at any time in response to Covid case rates abroad.

Whilst I accept that they have adopted a rather wide interpretation of country/territory by including parts of Spain and other Spanish territories that, on the face of it, don't appear to be exhibiting increased infection rates, they have done exactly what they said they would do, and in a timely fashion. I don't think that could be described as a 'major reversal of policy'.

[NWA SLF]

Something must be different in UK math. Currently the UK is reporting 299k confirmed cases, 46k deaths. Using the exact numbers it calculates to 15.28% mortality rate. Even the USA with the worlds worst response to COVID-19, enough for their people to be banned from travel nearly everywhere in the world is only 3.42%. However what is reported is those who test positive - they either live or they die. There is no statistic on health results post COVID-19 positive. Lung damage, permanent full disability, permanent partial disability, etc. Changing travel restrictions based on infection rates seems a reasonable response; prepare accordingly when you travel.

[Arcanum]

The U.K. government was barely able to test 10,000 people a day at the end of March. A lot more people had COVID in March/April than were showing up in the official numbers. It's only since early May that the circa 150K tests per day U.K. testing capacity is large enough to (probably) ensure that there's an accurate picture of infection rate.

People receiving positive antibody test results don't get counted in the numbers you're referring too. Also, the science indicates that people can fight off COVID using T-Cells and won't necessarily have a meaningful immune response which will be picked up by antibody tests.

[Playamar2]

Quote from the BBC. Talks are under way with Spain about introducing air bridges with the Balearic and Canary Islands, a UK government source has confirmed. An air bridge would mean people arriving from the islands would not have to quarantine for 14 days after rules changed this weekend. The travel industry is hoping ministers make a decision by Friday. A government source indicated to the BBC there will not be an immediate decision. One travel industry source said the government had told them it wanted to study more data from Spain's Islands before making a decision.

That last sentence is just ridiculous and groping for an excuse. Surely they made the decision to impose quarantine by studying the data in the first place. It would reflect badly on Bungling Johnson and his stooges if they changed the rule for the islands so quickly after imposing quarantine.

[inOban]

Turkey has been silencing it’s nurses and doctors, many have been arrested for speaking out about the dire situation in Turkey. Access to social media has been severely restricted and those found posting any negative comments about the virus or that of the governments handling have been arrested and their posts removed or had threats against their person and families. There are many documented cases by various NGO’s whose reports are available across the Internet. Istanbul has in excess of 40k extra deaths in the first three months of this year.
Fair enough. If accurate death registrations are available, the xs deaths are generally agreed to be the most accurate measurement. In the UK the current xs deaths are now negative, because some people would have died anyway of their other illnesses.

[Buster the Bear]

The UK is ranked 5th in the world for the total number of Covid-19 tests and shall pass the 15 million mark this week.

[LGW Vulture]

Just think of the environmental nightmare all of this PPE and testing kits are creating. All that good work saved on CO2 emissions from aircraft and we're creating an even bigger nuisance.

[LTNman]

Now against Government advice to travel to any Spanish Island

[guy_incognito]

The FCO's statement is interesting, in that it basically gives no logical reason for including the islands in the "no non-essential travel" advice. I'd imagine that it is very deliberate, and points to intra-departmental turmoil within government.

[LTNman]

Spain is getting more than twice the rate of new infections than the UK. Table below.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

[ROC10]

It has been said many times that Spanish holidays are soon to start, resulting in many Spanish people (some of whom will be from hotspots) flocking to islands and other popular destinations. Perhaps the government is acting proactively (I’m as surprised as anyone) to try to mitigate the potential consequences of this?

Of course I fear for the industry, but I don’t think it’s entirely fair to suggest this is completely nonsensical either.

[MKY661]

Wonder if they'll bring Gibraltar into this, since most people who fly from there do cross in from Spain including myself. Hopefully they won't have to self isolate in Gibraltar before returning home.

[250 kts]

You all just need to be aware that we Brits know so much more about how to handle this crisis, and we shall continue to lead the world in how we manage to screw it up. You thought I meant Covid? -well I did but the same applies to the B word too!

[PilotLZ]

The WHO today stated that travel bans cannot continue indefinitely and shall be reconsidered in favour of risk mitigation measures during travel. Is this just because someone will be upset if they don't get their annual week at the beach and will have to instead "act as a grown-up and stay close to home"? Absolutely no. Travel and holidays support an immense number of livelihoods. In many cases, entire countries rely on tourism because they hardly have any other industries. How do you tell all those people "sorry, folks, in the new normal we don't travel anymore, go find some other way of making ends meet"? What are they going to do? Grow potatoes where the hotels, restaurants etc once stood and revert to natural economy? And those people are in the sort of numbers which make any airline lay-off look rather insignificant.

[LTNman]

Was it not WHO that said it was safe to travel to and from China at the start of the spread of the virus when China had shut down domestic flights?

[A340600MAN]

Spain is getting more than twice the rate of new infections than the UK. Table below.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea
I was looking at these figures yesterday. Spain and Portugal both have over double the infection rate 35.1 and 35.5 of the UK which currently is 14.7, which is similar in number to France 14.6. Sweden currently is 40.1. These figures are a 14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases per 100 000 people.

I work in the aviation industry, currently on furlough and is desperate to get back to work as soon as possible, but these EU/European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control figures point out that areas of Spain and Portugal are not safe at the moment. You can't have one rule/set of figures for Portugal and not apply the same rules for Spain. I'm fully aware the infection rate is lower in the islands but the trend is up and as we know there is always a lag in the infection rate.

[Mcflyer101]

I was looking at these figures yesterday. Spain and Portugal both have over double the infection rate 35.1 and 35.5 of the UK which currently is 14.7, which is similar in number to France 14.6. Sweden currently is 40.1. These figures are a 14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases per 100 000 people.

I work in the aviation industry, currently on furlough and is desperate to get back to work as soon as possible, but these EU/European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control figures point out that areas of Spain and Portugal are not safe at the moment. You can't have one rule/set of figures for Portugal and not apply the same rules for Spain. I'm fully aware the infection rate is lower in the islands but the trend is up and as we know there is always a lag in the infection rate.

These numbers are all meaningless if you don’t put them in perspective. Portugal has had far less deaths/people in intensive care per capita than Spain or GB. Madeira and Acores are basically Covid free. Counting infections that have completely different outcomes is meaningless. If we would have counted every single person with a flu in the past we probably would have created the same paranoia...But I guess the genie is out of the bottle and can’t be put back...

[valefan16]

I was looking at these figures yesterday. Spain and Portugal both have over double the infection rate 35.1 and 35.5 of the UK which currently is 14.7, which is similar in number to France 14.6. Sweden currently is 40.1. These figures are a 14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases per 100 000 people.

I work in the aviation industry, currently on furlough and is desperate to get back to work as soon as possible, but these EU/European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control figures point out that areas of Spain and Portugal are not safe at the moment. You can't have one rule/set of figures for Portugal and not apply the same rules for Spain. I'm fully aware the infection rate is lower in the islands but the trend is up and as we know there is always a lag in the infection rate.

The U.K. also tests far more than most countries which probably inflates our numbers in comparison to others which are not.

[davidjohnson6]

I was looking at these figures yesterday. Spain and Portugal both have over double the infection rate 35.1 and 35.5 of the UK which currently is 14.7, which is similar in number to France 14.6. Sweden currently is 40.1. These figures are a 14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases per 100 000 people.

I work in the aviation industry, currently on furlough and is desperate to get back to work as soon as possible, but these EU/European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control figures point out that areas of Spain and Portugal are not safe at the moment. You can't have one rule/set of figures for Portugal and not apply the same rules for Spain. I'm fully aware the infection rate is lower in the islands but the trend is up and as we know there is always a lag in the infection rate.

Croatia is looking like it's near the danger zone... their economy is heavily based on inbound summer tourism (about 20% of GDP, yes really high and higher than Spain or Portugal), so Govt will feel a significant conflict of interests in whatever they choose to do

[wiggy]

What happens to aircrew that have returned on a flight from Spain?

They have an exemption from the 14 day quarantine requirement.

Pilots and crew, as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Air Navigation Order 2016(h), where such crew have travelled to the UK in the course of their workYou’ll need to complete the Public Health passenger locator form (https://visas-immigration.service.gov.uk/public-health-passenger-locator-form) before you travel to the UK if you travel in any part of the aircraft that is accessible to any passenger for any part of the journey (for example the aircraft cabin).

You do not need to complete the Public Health passenger locator form if you travel in a part of the aircraft that is not accessible to passengers, for example a fully enclosed cockpit

You will not need to self-isolate for 14 days.

You should show a crew badge or ID.


https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules

​​​​​​​ (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules)

[Copenhagen]

The UK government, Ireland too have quarantines on Spain and Portugal at the moment. Considering the UK government was slow to start the UK lockdown, and have taken a hands off approach in comparison to other nations, I trust that they know something we don't know and acted immediately with Spain and now Portugal.

Damned if the do, damned if they don't in many ways.

[Mcflyer101]

The UK government, Ireland too have quarantines on Spain and Portugal at the moment. Considering the UK government was slow to start the UK lockdown, and have taken a hands off approach in comparison to other nations, I trust that they know something we don't know and acted immediately with Spain and now Portugal.

Damned if the do, damned if they don't in many ways.

Turkey is considered to be ok by GB while Germany regards Turkey as danger zone. Everyone is making their own rules as they go along...The WHO just announced that travel restrictions are useless for countries that have similar levels of Covid. They make only sense in the beginning of a Pandemic when there are huge differences in levels of infection. Once it has become endemic it’s useless. You can get the Virus if you travel from Manchester to London and vice versa. During airport testing of people arriving in Germany those coming from countries considered safe tested positive in far bigger numbers...we’re talking about 75 people being positive out of 25000 people tested. However nobody is asking about the science behind it all. This science is sketchy and full of holes!...In the meantime I’m well impressed how easily people are led to believe everything their governments tell them.

[AirUK]

Why are we killing our travel industries instead of allowing folks to travel at their discretion and then testing people coming back from Spain to see if they need to individually self-isolate?

Bonkers.

[LTNman]

These numbers are all meaningless if you don’t put them in perspective. Portugal has had far less deaths/people in intensive care per capita than Spain or GB...

So you are saying that Brits being infected in Spain or Portugal will have a better outcome when they return to the UK? The whole point of the restrictions is to try and reduce the number of new infections being imported.

[Bidule]

These numbers are all meaningless if you don’t put them in perspective. Portugal has had far less deaths/people in intensive care per capita than Spain or GB. Madeira and Acores are basically Covid free. Counting infections that have completely different outcomes is meaningless. If we would have counted every single person with a flu in the past we probably would have created the same paranoia...But I guess the genie is out of the bottle and can’t be put back...

I agree that the number of cases is meaningless, simply because it directly depends on the number of tested persons, which is not given in this document https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea
However, I disagree with you on the death rate. From same document, the death rate - and this one does not depend on the number of tested persons - in UK (1.4 / 100,000) is very significantly higher than in Portugal (0.6) or Spain (0.1).

.

[wowzz]

So you are saying that Brits being infected in Spain or Portugal will have a better outcome when they return to the UK? The whole point of the restrictions is to try and reduce the number of new infections being imported.
But why stop people travelling to and from places that have lower infection rates (Balearic and Canary Islands) than the UK? The message is now so muddled that there appears to be no reasoning behind it. By the same logic, surely Scotland should be banning all travel to England, given the relative levels of CV19 between the two countries?

[Mcflyer101]

So you are saying that Brits being infected in Spain or Portugal will have a better outcome when they return to the UK? The whole point of the restrictions is to try and reduce the number of new infections being imported.

Again. When a virus is endemic it’s pointless to put up barriers between countries that have similar levels of infection. To kill off the virus you would need to quarantine everyone in their private homes for weeks if not months!...Is GB putting up barriers between Manchester and London for example? This is simple logic! The other option is to test people when they arrive. Austria has been doing it from the very beginning. Germany has introduced it for free.

[Kirks gusset]

Even Turkey is doing temperature checks on international arrivals. If PAX returning from Spain are to be quarantined then they must be checked at arrival and have a contact tracing app. Of course, none of this would have happened if the youngsters had obeyed the social distancing rules in the first place, France will be next.
In these countries where cafe culture and all hugs and kisses are the normal we may as well just accept the fact that no matter what the official advice, they will always do their own thing. A brutal regime like Turkey enforces the rule in the main tourist cities, hence the Eastern provinces being no-go areas, the Med countries must either do the same or face the economic hardship of their laissez faire approach. Sadly, once again, the UK aviation industry will be hit hard.
Police have already stated they do not have the resources to enforce quarantine and there is no real way of checking where people are without location technology.

[BDAttitude]

Finally it's not so much about science and logic - it's about politics and herding sheeple:
It is politically - with regard to your own holiday industry as was well as with regard to the "host" countries - impossible to prohibit Magaluf style holidays where holidaymakers infect holidaymakers, while allowing travelling for hiking vacations in Mallorcas back country, which would be very sensible.
So you have to find alternate ways of management.
In germany most imported Covid infections are not from your typical holiday destinations but apparently from family visits in south eastern balkan states. Again for political reasons the government has opted for the free tests - to avoid discriminatory allegations from certain immigrant communities when imposing a two weeks quarantine.

[Mcflyer101]

Even Turkey is doing temperature checks on international arrivals. If PAX returning from Spain are to be quarantined then they must be checked at arrival and have a contact tracing app. Of course, none of this would have happened if the youngsters had obeyed the social distancing rules in the first place, France will be next.
In these countries where cafe culture and all hugs and kisses are the normal we may as well just accept the fact that no matter what the official advice, they will always do their own thing. A brutal regime like Turkey enforces the rule in the main tourist cities, hence the Eastern provinces being no-go areas, the Med countries must either do the same or face the economic hardship of their laissez faire approach. Sadly, once again, the UK aviation industry will be hit hard.
Police have already stated they do not have the resources to enforce quarantine and there is no real way of checking where people are without location technology.

Your prejudices are destroying your best arguments. Firstly Spain had one of the strictest lockdowns. Secondly neither Spain nor Portugal have been arguing about imposing face masks in confined spaces. To this day people in GB are very reluctant to use them. The “hugs and kisses” have long gone. Spikes are absolutely normal when you dealing with a highly infectious flu. Spikes are also happening in GB(Leicester etc.) On the other hand GB screwed up in the very beginning when it had no quarantine and open borders for months. To introduce a quarantine when others are starting to ease their restrictions and have far fewer cases proves that this government is clueless and most probably politicising the pandemic!

[PilotLZ]

Almost half a year into all the corona mess, some politicians keep deluding people that imported infections are the biggest problem out there and everyone shall concentrate on those by restricting travel and shaming travellers. In the meantime, failure to comply with a couple of simple rules inside most individual countries contribute a lot more to the increase in cases. You be the judge what is more risky: going to a not-too-popular and hence not overcrowded beach with your family in a foreign country or strolling the packed pubs with a crowd of drunken lads and social distancing thrown out of the window in your home city? It's not so much about where in the world you are; it's about how you spend your time there. You can stay really safe in Spain - just as you can engage into all sorts of risky behaviours in the UK. So, it would make a lot more sense to enforce order INSIDE the countries instead of restricting movement BETWEEN them.

[inOban]

But trying to operate a Track and Trace process is difficult enough within a country, without contact tracing people in several others.

[P330]

Almost half a year into all the corona mess, some politicians keep deluding people that imported infections are the biggest problem out there and everyone shall concentrate on those by restricting travel and shaming travellers. In the meantime, failure to comply with a couple of simple rules inside most individual countries contribute a lot more to the increase in cases. You be the judge what is more risky: going to a not-too-popular and hence not overcrowded beach with your family in a foreign country or strolling the packed pubs with a crowd of drunken lads and social distancing thrown out of the window in your home city? It's not so much about where in the world you are; it's about how you spend your time there. You can stay really safe in Spain - just as you can engage into all sorts of risky behaviours in the UK. So, it would make a lot more sense to enforce order INSIDE the countries instead of restricting movement BETWEEN them.

Absolutely spot on! Problem of enforcing though is difficult when the incidents aren’t always happening in public places: the volume of policing would be huge.

Sadly, a few aren’t playing by the rules and therefore that puts all of our lives on hold.

[davidjohnson6]

New stats out for all countries in the EU plus the UK showing the number of cases reported in the last 14 days per 100,000 population

UK has gone from 14.7 cases per 100k people in the last 2 weeks as of 27 July to 15.0 cases as of 28 July
Portugal as a comparable has gone from 35.5 cases per 100k people to 33.9
Spain has gone from 35.1 cases per 100k people to 47.2 cases

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

[guy_incognito]

A lot of outraged voices saying "Serves them right for booking a holiday in the middle of a pandemic" or words to that effect.

Are they suggesting that the travel industry should stop completely for a year (or 2) and just magically reappear once people think it's ok to travel again?

I think it's much worse than that. A lot of people seem to think that the whole world economy should completely shut down, and a total lockdown enforced until the virus is gone and "the risk" is zero. Neither of which are going to happen.

[PilotLZ]

I think it's much worse than that. A lot of people seem to think that the whole world economy should completely shut down, and a total lockdown enforced until the virus is gone and "the risk" is zero. Neither of which are going to happen.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x960/a856e59c_382e_4582_87ef_85df6d00fda4_6cf72f92c6309bb88b66906 a3fdb087ebaf16d07_9fd7d4c9e4f93c96d39531ce358f345df9386d9c.j peg

[Icelanta]

But is this the calculation that the Government is using? Doubtful. Turkey hides it’s official number similar to China yet this Government designates it as a safe destination knowing fully that this is a lie.

Spain is a EU nation with up-to-date reporting that wants to be as clear as possible.
Turkey is a country run by a despotic goat lover that has annexed part of an EU country .
There is simply NO comparison and no tourists should go to Erdoganistan at all.

[Kirks gusset]

Mac, you are absolutely correct, having read my post I can see that it appears to target the "locals' rather than the tourists. My point was meant to be that the relaxed approach to discipline makes it near impossible to enforce the rules on the tourists, unlike Turkey where the police get rewards for fining tourists. Spain desperately needs the revenues and hosts are reluctant to be party poopers. The Brits that went there and obeyed the rules are now suffering for the majority of knuckle heads that flirted them.
I guess the debate is about the UK Gov approach, lack of, etc and confusing messages.
Hong kong has gone back to lockdown now they have increases in cases tracked to maritime crews swapping duties at the ports and no Covid controls.
The Nightingale Hospitals were built mainly for the second and third waves, one could argue the writing was on the wall and the UK Gov knew it, on the other hand a broken economy is the balance of freedoms for many of us.

[wowzz]

Mac, you are absolutely correct, having read my post I can see that it appears to target the "locals' rather than the tourists. My point was meant to be that the relaxed approach to discipline makes it near impossible to enforce the rules on the tourists, unlike Turkey where the police get rewards for fining tourists. Spain desperately needs the revenues and hosts are reluctant to be party poopers. The Brits that went there and obeyed the rules are now suffering for the majority of knuckle heads that flirted them.
I guess the debate is about the UK Gov approach, lack of, etc and confusing messages.
Hong kong has gone back to lockdown now they have increases in cases tracked to maritime crews swapping duties at the ports and no Covid controls.
The Nightingale Hospitals were built mainly for the second and third waves, one could argue the writing was on the wall and the UK Gov knew it, on the other hand a broken economy is the balance of freedoms for many of us.
If the Brits are responsible for the spike, perhaps you can explain why so many areas experiencing significant increases in infection rates, are nowhere near tourist areas.

[2Planks]

AirUK, no it's not bonkers as testing is not infallible by a long way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53567309

[AirportPlanner1]

I think it's much worse than that. A lot of people seem to think that the whole world economy should completely shut down, and a total lockdown enforced until the virus is gone and "the risk" is zero. Neither of which are going to happen.

Thing is this could have happened, but that horse has long since bolted. Think about it, you had China and India shut down, there’s the two billion+ nations for starters. Most of Europe strictly shut down and sealed borders. Australasia ditto, and look at NZ now. Canada got tough. Most of Asia got tough. The USA was the real weak link, along with Brazil (same politics), Turkey (politics referenced) and then the likes of ourselves here in the UK who did it half-heartedly...again see the politics of it.

What we could have had was fully functioning domestic economies a la New Zealand, and bit by bit sealed international networks between 0 case countries.

[SWBKCB]

Yea - we are sooo like New Zealand. Great example...

[PilotLZ]

The horse has bolted - but the awkward thing is that nobody knows when. Coronavirus traces were found in sewage water samples from Barcelona dated as early as March 2019. The first cases in many European countries are now winded back to the autumn of 2019. Lots of unexplained pneumonia cases in Q4 2019. Lots of people with flu-like symptoms over the winter, complaining that it was a weird flu that made them lose their smell and taste. Chances are, it was already in Europe long before it was diagnosed in Wuhan. That's not me fantasising, a number of independent and credible sources make such claims. The bloody thing slipped under the radar during a time with lots of seasonal infections - and by the time lockdown was enforced it was already widespread enough to cause thousands of cases per day weeks after the start of lockdown.

On a mature reflection, what could have been done better? Suspension of all flights from China as early as 1 January might have not helped at all if the virus was already among the European population. Suspension of intra-EU links and lockdown due to someone with unexplained pneumonia somewhere also sounds rather surreal. No politician would have taken responsibility for that. So, we just went about with life until the little lizard became a fire-breathing dragon. No border closure will help much now as it is everywhere - and cases can't always be clearly linked to one another. So, put on those masks, keep your distance, avoid crowds, do the shopping for your oldies whenever possible and try to survive. Not much else left.

[LTNman]

Spain is a EU nation with up-to-date reporting that wants to be as clear as possible.
Turkey is a country run by a despotic goat lover that has annexed part of an EU country .
There is simply NO comparison and no tourists should go to Erdoganistan at all.

Not that up to date as El Pais has been crunching numbers and estimates that recorded deaths have been under reported by up to 60%.

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07-25/las-44868-muertes-de-la-pandemia-en-espana.html

[Icelanta]

Not that up to date as El Pais has been crunching numbers and estimates that recorded deaths have been under reported by up to 60%.

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07-25/las-44868-muertes-de-la-pandemia-en-espana.html
Nonsense.
Every country calculates their deaths contributed to Covid19 differently, look at Germany, that officially has a very low death rate, but that is only because it calculates only deaths that are purely due to Covid , whereas Belgium for example calculates every death even suspected of being connected or facilitated to /by Covid.

[White Knight]

Funny. No one has mentioned SWEDEN in all of this thread! (I know it's about quarantine in the UK coming from Spain but as everywhere else is being mentioned:hmm:) They seem to have got it right.................

[Bidule]

Not that up to date as El Pais has been crunching numbers and estimates that recorded deaths have been under reported by up to 60%.

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07-25/las-44868-muertes-de-la-pandemia-en-espana.html

Yes but only in 4 of the 17 regions....mostly for political reasons

.

[SARF]

Funny. No one has mentioned SWEDEN in all of this thread! (I know it's about quarantine in the UK coming from Spain but as everywhere else is being mentioned:hmm:) They seem to have got it right.................
ssshh. No one is allowed to mention Sweden. After the hysteria of no lockdown who wants to be reminded of their common sense approach.

[PilotLZ]

Recent research from South Korea has indicated that most cases of contagion happen in people's homes, when there is an infected family member who infects those living with him/her, often unknowingly. So, lock up nice and tight and hope for safety... Of course, unless you live alone in a hut in the middle of nowhere.

On the original topic - TUI seem to have resumed flights to the Canaries and the Balearics with the explanation that there are holidaymakers who are happy to spend 14 days in quarantine for the sake of getting away (presumably those who either work from home or don't work at all). However, how does this correspond with the recent change in travel advice which now also encompasses the islands? Or do they know something which we don't?

[vikingivesterled]

Funny. No one has mentioned SWEDEN in all of this thread! (I know it's about quarantine in the UK coming from Spain but as everywhere else is being mentioned:hmm:) They seem to have got it right.................

Why do you feel Sweden got it right? Double the population of Norway but 20 times the death rate, and 10 times that of Denmark. Now shun by everybody. None has declared all of Sweden a green zone for travel. At the most some neighbouring countries have declared a few limited areas ok because their own population want to go there. They chose a different approach and now they have to suffer for it by being a pariah. Besides Sweden has a voluntarily lockdown and distancing regime and most of the people is abiding by it. Don't think the over 40's there are going about their life as normal.

[wowzz]

Recent research from South Korea has indicated that most cases of contagion happen in people's homes, when there is an infected family member who infects those living with him/her, often unknowingly. So, lock up nice and tight and hope for safety... Of course, unless you live alone in a hut in the middle of nowhere.

On the original topic - TUI seem to have resumed flights to the Canaries and the Balearics with the explanation that there are holidaymakers who are happy to spend 14 days in quarantine for the sake of getting away (presumably those who either work from home or don't work at all). However, how does this correspond with the recent change in travel advice which now also encompasses the islands? Or do they know something which we don't?
There is nothing to stop you going to mainland Spain or the islands, but doing so against government advice invalidates your insurance.

[PilotLZ]

There is nothing to stop you going to mainland Spain or the islands, but doing so against government advice invalidates your insurance.
True that, no denial. But is it just your individual insurance? Does the tour operator not have any duty of care towards its customers, requiring it not to take them to places labelled as high-risk ones?

[wowzz]

True that, no denial. But is it just your individual insurance? Does the tour operator not have any duty of care towards its customers, requiring it not to take them to places labelled as high-risk ones?
Package holidays have been cancelled, so no issues about duty of care there. Those going on a flight only basis, do so at their own risk.
As an aside, I have seen no evidence to suggest that places like Lanzarote or Mallorca are high risk. You could argue that buses and trains should not be allowed to enter Oldham, as that is more of a high risk area than the Spanish islands.

[adcast]

And is there anything to stop them from dodging the 14 days by flying to a country which does qualify for quarantine exemption and taking a flight to the UK from there? Not being ironic, not suggesting that anyone should try it, just asking.
No idea, maybe UK Gov can track with the (PNR) Passenger name record if you've flown in the last 2 weeks to a country excluded from the list which does not qualify for the quarantine exemption.

[Asturias56]

There is no evidence they have tracked anyone - no-one is interested and unless you write in "mickey Mouse" or " Buckingham Place" no-one cares what you write in

[fireflybob]

I read today there is an insurance company which will insure you, after all you’re not flying into a war zone. No idea what premiums and level of cover but when there’s a will! One wonders if this is a trend, people making their own risk assessment.

[wowzz]

I read today there is an insurance company which will insure you, after all you’re not flying into a war zone. No idea what premiums and level of cover but when there’s a will! One wonders if this is a trend, people making their own risk assessment.
"battleface" will cover medical expenses, but not costs due to isolation, delayed flights, extra hotel costs etc.

[PilotLZ]

If there's an opportunity to offer a product which nobody else offers, then it might as well be a smart move for said insurance company. Just check on the prices and, maybe even more importantly, read the small print. What's involved in the policy and what's not? It can easily be "medical expenses except COVID-19" or "repatriation costs except in case of a COVID-19 lockdown".

[wowzz]

Hopefully Boris will shut down all trips to the West Midlands, as the Canaries are safer.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8573335/McDonalds-closes-branch-West-Midlands-five-employees-tested-positive-coronavirus.html

[ara01jbb]

Why do you feel Sweden got it right? Double the population of Norway but 20 times the death rate, and 10 times that of Denmark. Now shun by everybody. None has declared all of Sweden a green zone for travel. At the most some neighbouring countries have declared a few limited areas ok because their own population want to go there. They chose a different approach and now they have to suffer for it by being a pariah. Besides Sweden has a voluntarily lockdown and distancing regime and most of the people is abiding by it. Don't think the over 40's there are going about their life as normal.

+1

Sweden’s approach saved neither people’s lives nor the economy. More people have died than in other Nordic countries and the country is heading into an identical recession - perhaps worse given Norway, Denmark and Finland have all imposed border controls which are only now starting to be loosened.

If the intention was to achieve herd immunity (aka herd thinning) it hasn’t worked either. Recent studies estimate that only 10-20% of Stockholmers have developed antibodies, and there is still no scientific proof that these either survive long enough or are capable of fighting off the infection for a second time.

[Bidule]

.... most cases of contagion happen in people's homes, when there is an infected family member who infects those living with him/her,


Very likely but how did this "first" family member become infected? Outside :eek:

.

[virginblue]

+1
If the intention was to achieve herd immunity (aka herd thinning) it hasn’t worked either. Recent studies estimate that only 10-20% of Stockholmers have developed antibodies, and there is still no scientific proof that these either survive long enough or are capable of fighting off the infection for a second time.

Just read that the first German with COVID19 lost his antibodies 4 months after having recovered from that illness. So much for herd immunity....

[Always Moving]

Arriving to where? The center of the universe USA?

[yellowsystem]

What about connection flights? I’m supposed to go to turkey via LGW from Spain...

[DaveReidUK]

What about connection flights? I’m supposed to go to turkey via LGW from Spain...

You are perfectly at liberty to leave the UK before your 14 days is up, provided obviously that your destination will accept you.

[bcn_boy]

What about connection flights? I’m supposed to go to turkey via LGW from Spain...
so you are flying from a high Covid infected area to the U.K. potentially spreading to all on board and in the airport and then flying to Turkey which is another high Covid infected nation. That all makes sense. Besides, why would you go to Turkey? Are you not aware of the severe human rights abuses going on in the nation or is a holiday more important? Are you aware that Turkey is threatening Greece with war?

[Kirks gusset]

What about connection flights? I’m supposed to go to turkey via LGW from Spain.. The general thoughts are that if you are a Transit Pax and stay airside there is no need to self isolate, of course when you get to Turkey you will have a temp test and have to fill in forms, what they do with you is anyones guess!
If you leave the airside and go groundside, that's where it becomes tricky, but I think most staff will be reasonable if the travel is out on the same day within a few hours. lets face it the damage is already done.

[Asturias56]

"so you are flying from a high Covid infected area to the U.K."

much of Spain has lower rates than much of the UK

[2Planks]

But it's all about the trends. The UK new case rate is easing up, the Spanish rate is climbing. Today there were 60 new cases per million folks in Spain, the UK 12.4. With the Spanish all going to the costas and islands and the young seemingly not giving dos hoots (this week has seen an average of 14 flights BCN-PMI) the change to quarantine looks prudent.

[DaveReidUK]

If you leave the airside and go groundside, that's where it becomes tricky, but I think most staff will be reasonable if the travel is out on the same day within a few hours

It's nothing to do with whether staff are being reasonable or not - there is no prohibition on leaving the UK while you're self-isolating.

[Kirks gusset]

It's nothing to do with whether staff are being reasonable or not - there is no prohibition on leaving the UK while you're self-isolating.
Your take on this is that you travel to UK and self Isolate somewhere else? or ,magically travel abroad without seeing or being near anyone else.. no doubt you have a link to the rules so we may understand the confusion?

When you arrive in the UK, you will not be allowed to leave the place where you’re staying for the first 14 days you’re in the UK (known as ‘self-isolating’) unless you’re arriving from an exempt country (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-travel-corridors).

[davidjohnson6]

If I fly (for example) from Madrid to the UK, I am required to go straight from the airport to my home and then stay at home for 2 weeks apart from a few exceptions - funeral, court, medical need or buy food if I can't get a delivery from Tesco or a friend to help. Anything else and I'm liable for a £1000 fine if PC Plod decides I'm not self isolating without good reason

How exactly does taking a plane to France in that 2 week period count as self isolating or having good reason ? I'm not trying to argue the merits of the idea of self isolation - more that I don't see how a period of self isolation is compatible with leaving the country in the middle of the 14 days

[bex88]

Anti bodies gone after 4 months. New research shows T cells, which is another way we fight off viruses such as the common cold are very effective against Covid. Sars survivors had T cells that recognise the virus and similar coronavirus 17 years after their infection.

I voted for this government but they seem to be fixated on Covid deaths (Even those who were hit by a bus) and nothing else.

Actually that’s not true, they are very keen on getting us all cycling.

[wowzz]

Anti bodies gone after 4 months. New research shows T cells, which is another way we fight off viruses such as the common cold are very effective against Covid. Sars survivors had T cells that recognise the virus and similar coronavirus 17 years after their infection.

I voted for this government but they seem to be fixated on Covid deaths (Even those who were hit by a bus) and nothing else.

Actually that’s not true, they are very keen on getting us all cycling.
And now they are telling people in NW England that they cannot socialise in other people's houses, but are keeping pubs and restaurants open.
I mean, really, does Hancock have a clue?

[PilotLZ]

If I fly (for example) from Madrid to the UK, I am required to go straight from the airport to my home and then stay at home for 2 weeks apart from a few exceptions - funeral, court, medical need or buy food if I can't get a delivery from Tesco or a friend to help. Anything else and I'm liable for a £1000 fine if PC Plod decides I'm not self isolating without good reason

How exactly does taking a plane to France in that 2 week period count as self isolating or having good reason ? I'm not trying to argue the merits of the idea of self isolation - more that I don't see how a period of self isolation is compatible with leaving the country in the middle of the 14 days
The logic is that once you cross the border you become someone else's problem. The self-isolation is meant to "protect" the population of the UK, not that of France.

Why am I saying "protect"? Because, the way it currently is, self-isolation is a joke. You are "quarantined", but nonetheless you can go shopping? Then what's the chance that someone will not use that as an excuse to go wherever they wish and, if stopped by the police, explain that they were going to the Tesco further down the road because the one closest to their home doesn't sell whatever food they want today? Now, obviously, if they catch you sunbathing in the park this excuse won't work - but if you're just walking in the street it's pretty hard to prove that you weren't going to the shop indeed. In other countries being quarantined means being completely banned from leaving your home, no matter the reason. Even going across the street to throw away the rubbish can get you arrested. If you need medical help, you call an ambulance and they come to transport you, treating you in the exact same way as a confirmed COVID-19 case. End of story.

[The96er]

And now they are telling people in NW England that they cannot socialise in other people's houses, but are keeping pubs and restaurants open.
I mean, really, does Hancock have a clue?

Actually, he does, or at least his advisors do. The spikes are happening almost exclusively within family units from certain backgrounds - the likes of which are unlikely to be seen visiting pubs. I believe it’s the Eid celebrations starting, you should be able to figure out the reasoning and the timing from that.

[LTNman]

And now they are telling people in NW England that they cannot socialise in other people's houses, but are keeping pubs and restaurants open.
I mean, really, does Hancock have a clue?

The issue centres on the Muslim communities who don’t go to pubs and don’t normally go to restaurants.

Meanwhile, with people saying they feel more safe abroad I just love this confession from a holidaymaker quoted by the BBC.

They've even taken a mini-break from social distancing. Ben, 39, and his wife Nadia, 37, decided they wouldn't be too strict on their children adhering to Italy's one-metre rule during the 11-day holiday, so they have mixed with other young families staying in the complex.

"If someone had plonked us here and we didn't know about coronavirus, we wouldn't know the difference. You honestly wouldn't know that there's a pandemic."


So who needs protecting more, the British in holiday mode or the locals? It is inevitable that with Brits feeling safe their guard drops. The Government has to factor in British mixing with the British while abroad.

[AirportPlanner1]

The issue centres on the Muslim communities who don’t go to pubs and don’t normally go to restaurants.

Meanwhile, with people saying they feel more safe abroad I just love this confession from a holidaymaker quoted by the BBC.

So who needs protecting more, the British in holiday mode or the locals? It is inevitable that with Brits feeling safe their guard drops. The Government has to factor in British mixing with the British while abroad.

Does it centre in Muslim communities? Any evidence of that? And any evidence Muslims “don’t go to restaurants”? They might not go to the restaurants you go to but I can assure you they go to them. I’ve seen multiple breaches of rules/guidance/lockdown and guess what, almost all have been by “white British”.

And if Eid really is the reason, why does this lockdown apply to the north and not to Birmingham or various areas of London?

[LTNman]

Does it centre in Muslim communities?

It does in Luton where the Council published a list of post codes.

Someone made a good point on TV why pubs are exempt, which is because that is a controlled environment with social distancing protocols in place.

[AirportPlanner1]

It does in Luton where the Council published a list of post codes.

So let me get this right, it does in Luton based on a list of postcodes so therefore it does across the whole of Greater Manchester along with various relatively nearby areas? Please tell me how you arrived at that conclusion

[DaveReidUK]

The logic is that once you cross the border you become someone else's problem. The self-isolation is meant to "protect" the population of the UK, not that of France.

Exactly.

There's a plain man's guide to the rules here: How the rules requiring 14 days of self-isolation for arrivals to Britain work (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/coronavirus-quarantine-travel-uk-self-isolation-priti-patel-speech-holiday-a9527741.html), but here's the relevant extract:

Is there any way to shorten the two weeks in self-isolation?

The only way legally to end the 14 days of quarantine is to leave the country again.

You could, for example, go on a city break to Rome, return for a few days of self-isolation, then take a holiday to Portugal, Croatia or another destination that is welcoming British travellers.

You would need to begin a fresh round of two weeks of quarantine on your return.

[LTNman]

So let me get this right, it does in Luton based on a list of postcodes so therefore it does across the whole of Greater Manchester along with various relatively nearby areas? Please tell me how you arrived at that conclusion

The Muslim Council of Great Britain have said it would have a major impact on the affected Muslim population due to Eid. Clearly many were planning to spend the day in each other’s homes.

I don’t know the ins and out of the religion but I assume this is like being told Christmas dinner has been cancelled.

[Expressflight]

DavidReidUK

I assumed that the link you gave would take me to a government website for the full details but it's actually a story by Simon Calder in The Independent. He normally knows his stuff but he doesn't explain how you would legally get to your UK departure airport for the "city break to Rome" without breaking the self-isolation rules, let alone boarding the aircraft.

[The96er]

So let me get this right, it does in Luton based on a list of postcodes so therefore it does across the whole of Greater Manchester along with various relatively nearby areas? Please tell me how you arrived at that conclusion

One assumes that the Government Does not want to be seen to be targeting a specific community for fear of stoking racial tensions which is why whole geographical areas are being included such as the whole of Greater Manchester in the same way that the whole of Leicester was targeted when the infection rise was only really concentrated within in a specific community.

[DaveReidUK]

DavidReidUK

I assumed that the link you gave would take me to a government website for the full details but it's actually a story by Simon Calder in The Independent. He normally knows his stuff but he doesn't explain how you would legally get to your UK departure airport for the "city break to Rome" without breaking the self-isolation rules, let alone boarding the aircraft.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel) (England) Regulations 2020: (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/568/part/2/made)

PART 2
Obligations on persons arriving in England and others

4. Requirement to self-isolate

(7) [a person] must, on their arrival in England, travel directly to the place at which they are to self-isolate, and must then self-isolate until whichever is the earlier of—

(a) the end of the 14th day after the day on which they arrive in the common travel area, or

(b) their departure from England.

[SWBKCB]

One assumes that the Government Does not want to be seen to be targeting a specific community for fear of stoking racial tensions which is why whole geographical areas are being included such as the whole of Greater Manchester in the same way that the whole of Leicester was targeted when the infection rise was only really concentrated within in a specific community.

and don't want to highlight the common factor of poverty.

[2Planks]

Well given that the Labour Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, is fully supportive of the Governments actions and not jumping on the communications issues shows that the rest of Labour are is very telling. And let's face it he is not normally shy of jumping on a bandwagon.

Sometimes, an 80% solution is better than a committee meeting.

[Kirks gusset]

Dave, Looking at the legislation you posted, and thanks for that,

My understanding is that UNLESS : 3) P must self-isolate—
(a)unless sub-paragraph (b) or (c) applies—
(i)in the case of a person described in paragraph (1)(a), at an address specified in P’s Passenger Locator Form as the intended place of self-isolation, as required by regulation 3 and paragraph 2(a) of Schedule 1,
(ii)in the case of a person described in paragraph (1)(b), or a person described in paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 (other than one described in paragraph (13)(a)(i)), at a place at which they intend to self-isolate while in England,
(iii)where it is not possible for P to self-isolate in accordance with paragraph (i) or (ii), in accommodation facilitated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of P’s self-isolation,
(b)where P is an asylum seeker, in accommodation provided or arranged under section 4, 95 or 98 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999(3 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/568/part/2/made#f00008)),
(c)where P is a person described in paragraph 9(1) of Schedule 10 to the Immigration Act 2016 (powers of Secretary of State to enable person to meet bail conditions), in accommodation provided or arranged under that paragraph.

So the section 7 B applies to these people, all others must self isolate

[davidjohnson6]

Cases of Covid in last 14 days per 100,000 population in Spain is now double that of Portugal
Source - ECDC

[fireflybob]

I've just returned from a week in Tenerife so now have to quarantine for 14 days, being a retiree this is not too much of an issue for me.
I felt far safer in Tenerife than I do back in the UK. Resorts quiet, wall to wall sunshine (Vitamin D), spending most of my waking day outdoors either going for a run and/or imbibing or dining at a local hostelry, using the stairs at my hotel (as opposed to lifts) which are on the exterior of the building and therefore open to fresh air as were the walkways to one's room. My observation is that Spanish are rigorous in their application of the rules and I noticed one case where the local police swiftly picked up on someone not wearing a mask when legally required (the miscreant was Spanish by the way).
I seriously considered staying longer but given the (very) remote chance that Spain might lockdown again I didn't really want to get stuck there. Whilst many Spaniards living in mainland Spain do visit the islands in August one presumes those living in areas where there are local lockdowns cannot go out?

Cases of Covid in last 14 days per 100,000 population in Spain is now double that of Portugal
Source - ECDC

Spain are detecting new cases of Covid. Their infection totals include both those who have it and those who have antibodies for it so have presumably had it in the past and recovered?

[inOban]

Spain has been including antibody-positives in their totals for some time, since before the recent rise in cases.
BTW I read that many of the new infections in France are in tourist areas.

[LTNman]

I felt far safer in Tenerife than I do back in the UK.

There is an argument that those that feel safe don’t always follow social distancing and hand washing while those that perceive danger take more precautions.

Interesting piece on the BBC web site where they quote a father on holiday with his wife and 3 children. He also said he felt safe so was practicing no social distancing with other families staying at the same apartment complex as it would be hard for his children.

[fireflybob]

There is an argument that those that feel safe don’t always follow social distancing and hand washing while those that perceive danger take more precautions.

Well that's not me! I think some people will disregard sensible precautions irrespective of how one attempts to motivate them.

[Playamar2]

There are some huge differences between the regions in Spain. 14 day rate for the Canary islands is about 5.8 and South Tenerife has not had any positive cases for over 30 days. There has been no deaths in the Canary islands for 6 weeks. The Spanish PM has ruled out a second national lockdown and would rather let individual regions impose restrictions as they see fit.
Asking returnees from the islands (Canary & Balearics) to quarantine is not based on the science/medical facts. Unfortunately the UK Government is afraid to admit they got it wrong and will probably wait a week or two to safe face before reversing their decision.

[roger4]

There are some huge differences between the regions of the UK also. In England, the data from Public Health England for last week for all 315 districts shows only 2 have an infection rate greater than Spain's average of 60.2/100k persons, and 213 districts have an infection rate less than that of the Canary Islands and 15 of these having zero infection rates. So yes, it looks to me that the UK decisions are based on science/medical facts.

However clearly the UK position on quarantine is based on more than just the most recent infection rates, and probably includes the current trajectory of the rate. The UK rate has been about the same each week for the last 5 weeks, while Spain's has increased by a factor of 5 (from 10.6/100k for the period 20 June to 4 July, when it was comparable to the UK's, to today's figure of 60.2/100k.

[Bidule]

Cases of Covid in last 14 days per 100,000 population in Spain is now double that of Portugal
Source - ECDC

Again, the number of cases is meaningless if you do not know the number of tests. I am much more worried by the number of deaths in Portugal (0.5) and UK (1.3, only Romania is higher in EU/EEA & UK) than in Spain (0.1).

.

[Playamar2]

roger4 do you know where the Canary islands are? The UK is close to mainland Spain that the Canary islands. If they were a designated country then they would be exempt from quarantine. Therefore the reason for quarantining becomes political rather than science. I have no issue with mainland Spain being quarantined. Do the UK government expect someone to fly 2 hours in the wrong direction just to avoid quarantine NO, they would just drive 2hours from Barcelona to France and fly from there.

[roger4]

Playamar2 - of course I do, having been there a number of times: a fantastic holiday destination. But the fact remains that 2/3rds of England's districts have current infection rates less than that of the Canary Islands.

All decisions made by Governments are political, I am merely expressing the opinion that in my view the decision is backed by the scientific data. I respect your right to disagree.

I agree that those who are determined may well be able to find ways to avoid the UK 14-day quarantine, subject to the risk of a £1000 fine if they get caught.

[DaveReidUK]

Dave, Looking at the legislation you posted, and thanks for that,

My understanding is that UNLESS : 3) P must self-isolate—
(a)unless sub-paragraph (b) or (c) applies—
(i)in the case of a person described in paragraph (1)(a), at an address specified in P’s Passenger Locator Form as the intended place of self-isolation, as required by regulation 3 and paragraph 2(a) of Schedule 1,
(ii)in the case of a person described in paragraph (1)(b), or a person described in paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 (other than one described in paragraph (13)(a)(i)), at a place at which they intend to self-isolate while in England,
(iii)where it is not possible for P to self-isolate in accordance with paragraph (i) or (ii), in accommodation facilitated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of P’s self-isolation,
(b)where P is an asylum seeker, in accommodation provided or arranged under section 4, 95 or 98 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999(3 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/568/part/2/made#f00008)),
(c)where P is a person described in paragraph 9(1) of Schedule 10 to the Immigration Act 2016 (powers of Secretary of State to enable person to meet bail conditions), in accommodation provided or arranged under that paragraph.

So the section 7 B applies to these people, all others must self isolate

That's a very strange interpretation of what is a fairly straightforward regulation. Section 7 makes no distinction between whom 7(a) and 7(b) applies to, hence its use of "whichever is earlier".

Anyone who is obliged to self-isolate must do so for 14 days, unless they leave England before the 14 days is up. It's that simple.

[PilotLZ]

To get an idea of the consequences, have a look at flightradar24. Ten days ago, probably more than half of the flights towards the Canaries were from or to UK airports. Now, there are hardly any - and the total number of airborne aircraft between Portugal and the Canaries is at best half of what it used to be a mere week ago. Good illustration why the difference between the coordinated measures and the uncoordinated measures scenarios calculated by Eurocontrol is so significant.

[Kirks gusset]

Requirement to self-isolate4.—(1) This regulation applies where a person (“P”)—
(a)arrives in England from outside the common travel area, or
(b)arrives in England from within the common travel area, and has at any time in the period beginning with the 14th day before the date of their arrival in England, been outside the common travel area.
(2) P must remain in isolation from others (“self-isolate”) in accordance with this regulation.
(3) P must self-isolate—
(a)unless sub-paragraph (b) or (c) applies—
(i)in the case of a person described in paragraph (1)(a), at an address specified in P’s Passenger Locator Form as the intended place of self-isolation, as required by regulation 3 and paragraph 2(a) of Schedule 1,
(ii)in the case of a person described in paragraph (1)(b), or a person described in paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 (other than one described in paragraph (13)(a)(i)), at a place at which they intend to self-isolate while in England,
(iii)where it is not possible for P to self-isolate in accordance with paragraph (i) or (ii), in accommodation facilitated by the Secretary of State for the purposes of P’s self-isolation,
(b)where P is an asylum seeker, in accommodation provided or arranged under section 4, 95 or 98 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999(3 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/568/part/2/made#f00008)),
(c)where P is a person described in paragraph 9(1) of Schedule 10 to the Immigration Act 2016 (powers of Secretary of State to enable person to meet bail conditions), in accommodation provided or arranged under that paragraph.
(4) The address specified by P in the Passenger Locator Form as the intended place of self-isolation must be—
(a)their home,
(b)the home of a friend or family member, or
(c)a hotel, hostel, bed and breakfast accommodation, or other suitable place.
(5) More than one address may be specified in the Passenger Locator Form where—
(a)a legal obligation requires P to change addresses, or
(b)it is necessary for P to stay overnight at an address on their arrival in England before travelling directly to another address at which they will be self-isolating.
(6) In paragraph (3)(a)(ii) “a place at which they intend to self-isolate while in England” means—
(a)where the person has completed a Passenger Locator Form, at an intended place of self-isolation specified in that form,
(b)where the person has completed a form equivalent to a Passenger Locator Form pursuant to an enactment in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, at an intended place of self-isolation specified in that form,
(c)in any other case at a place described in paragraph (4)(a) to (c).
(7) P must, on their arrival in England, travel directly to the place at which they are to self-isolate, and must then self-isolate until whichever is the earlier of—
(a)the end of the 14th day after the day on which they arrive in the common travel area, or
(b)their departure from England.


Any other options? If I read the legislation, starting strangely at the top ,and work down I still come to the same conclusion, that the quarantine period would only end earlier than if the person left the UK as a falling under the category sub para b or c section 4.3. a and were "removed" from the UK

[DaveReidUK]

Any other options? If I read the legislation, starting strangely at the top ,and work down I still come to the same conclusion, that the quarantine period would only end earlier than if the person left the UK as a falling under the category sub para b or c section 4.3. a and were "removed" from the UK

You are still overcomplicating something that is relatively simple. Read the Regulation again, one paragraph at a time.

Para 4(1) defines who must self-isolate

Para 4(3) simply defines, for those who must self-isolate, where that self-isolation must take place, dependent on category (e.g. arrivals from outside the CTA/asylum seekers/immigration bail grantees/etc). Agreed ?

Para 4(7) defines, for those who must self-isolate, how long that self-isolation must last: either 14 days or when the person leaves England (whichever is sooner)

With respect, I really don't understand how or why you are inventing other interdependencies that aren't provided for in the Regulations.

[rasposat]

Some of the officials say it's not a "quarantine" but an "isolation". What is the difference..

[PilotLZ]

Some of the officials say it's not a "quarantine" but an "isolation". What is the difference..
In the medical world, quarantine is a preventative measure segregating potentially contagious individuals from a healthy population, while isolation is the segregation of a confirmed infected person from everyone else. So, if we follow this logic, the UK arrival measure is a quarantine. But probably they don't call it this because "self-isolation" sounds more self-explanatory and easy to understand.