Iranian Airbus avoids F15 - injured passengers

[jimjim1]

I have no idea if this is true but there are reports.

Fighter Jet Forces Iranian Passenger Plane Over Syria to Divert to Beirut (https://www.algemeiner.com/2020/07/23/fighter-jet-forces-iranian-passenger-plane-over-syria-to-divert-to-beirut)

https://www.onthewingsaviation.com/2020/07/dos-cazas-f-15-ponen-en-peligro-un.html

I have verified that the screenshot below is a genuine FR24 image and it shows a speed and altitude discrepancy at about 16:13.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/w51152#250431a3

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/977x709/iranian_airbus_68a237902c48fe7df1974b41672c7ea0275844b8.png

[DaveReidUK]

Wasn't the flight (IRM1152) scheduled to land at Beirut anyway ?

[A0283]

BBC news reported the same event... not quite clear what actually happened though.

[PoppaJo]

Now confirmed as USAF

A U.S. F-15 on a routine air mission in the vicinity of the CJTF-OIR At Tanf garrison in Syria conducted a standard visual inspection of a Mahan Air passenger airliner at a safe distance of approximately 1,000 meters from the airliner this evening.

[Old Dogs]

Odd that a "standard visual inspection" would result in these kinds of injuries.🤔

​​​​​​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGglD1VHwU

[ATC Watcher]

Pax to hit ceiling = Negative G at some point = normally an evasive action .. must have been less than 1000m or a very nervous edgy reaction from a Mahan pilot ( almost all ext military ) spotting the F15 over a war zone ...
Puts again the question of flying civil pax over a conflict area ..

[procede]

The F-15 probably caused a TCAS alert.

[Bob Viking]

Even if the Airbus had a TCAS alert, why the violent bunt? Was the pilot attempting to execute some poorly flown BFM?!

[DaveReidUK]

Interesting report on Indian media that the Mahan crew were in communication with the F-15 pilot and had asked the latter to maintain a safe distance, though it's not clear whether that was before or after the upset:

9xTIYVtYJsI

[Icelanta]

That F15 had first of all NO BUSINESS there, this needs to be investigated very seriously and those responsible for ordering and executing this “mission” held accountable.

[wondering]

Exactly. The F-15 had no business 'patrolling' Syrian airspace.

[lomapaseo]

Facts or speculation? I read that it was a point to point contact and not a patrol. So how close were the points to each other? Might make a difference between "intercept" or "patrol"

[wondering]

@lomapaseo,

Exactly what official mandate does the USAF have to be in Syrian airspace?

[meleagertoo]

Er - do they need one?
And from whom might one be obtained?

Be a bit realistic, the US and many others, including the UK has considerable intrest in observing that tragic conflict and ensuring it gets no worse. We're hardly likley to file flight-plans to do that, are we?

[lomapaseo]

wondering

I believe they lease highly valuable real estate which is susceptible to attack from the air

[WillowRun 6-3]

Don't have all the facts, concerning and relating to this incident. So without relying on specific facts of the incident, I'm shocked, shocked at the indignation over USAF fighter aircraft operating in airspace of Syria. It is a conflict zone, after all. And let's see, it's July 2020 . . .

Is it not the case that a Turkish air force fighter shot down a Russian aircraft about four or five years ago, in this same conflict zone? And is it not also the case that USAF and Russian air co-ordinators have been applying "deconfliction" operational procedures for about the same length of time, if not longer? (Also I'm not relying on the fact of recent tensions between Iran and U.S. for rejecting indignant comments about the F-15 operating there, in this incident.)

So save the fake neutrality for some readers who might not actually see through it before you've even finished uttering.

[krismiler]

This wouldn't be the first time that a TCAS alert was responded to excessively, however I doubt that a military jet flying over hostile territory would be using its transponder. It sounds like an excessive evasion maneuver, thankfully limited by the Airbus control laws.

https://www.flightglobal.com/excessive-tcas-evasion-injured-20-on-taiwanese-757-inquiry/82412.article

[wondering]

My apologies. How dare anybody questioning how uncle Sam goes about his business.

[DC10RealMan]

I would have thought that the U.S. Military would have been more circumspect when dealing with Iranian commercial airliners having shot one down in the 1980s and killing all the passengers and crew including a number of children, all of whom were innocent civilians.

[Euclideanplane]

At any rate it appears that the encounter must have scared the crew of the civilian aircraft, and there were injuries. Fortunately minor, though there could well have been initial concerns for the elderly gentleman who got floored due to making a lavatory visit at an inopportune time, as it turned out.
How will this incident be treated now, in terms of investigating procedures?

[oceancrosser]

This wouldn't be the first time that a TCAS alert was responded to excessively, however I doubt that a military jet flying over hostile territory would be using its transponder. It sounds like an excessive evasion maneuver, thankfully limited by the Airbus control laws.

https://www.flightglobal.com/excessive-tcas-evasion-injured-20-on-taiwanese-757-inquiry/82412.article

Hardly on an A310...

[cappt]

The real question here is why the Iranian airliner was off its filed route, over a sensitive military installation,
not responding to radio interrogations, and finally, making abnormal abrupt maneuvers when they realized they had been intercepted?
Playing a very dangerous game with passengers lives perhaps?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35082/new-details-emerge-about-air-force-f-15-intercept-of-iranian-airbus-over-syria

[gearlever]

Sounds like pure propaganda aka fake news to me, sorry.

[dr dre]

The real question here is why the Iranian airliner was off its filed route, over a sensitive military installation,,

The Mahan Air Aircraft seemed to be following a standard route to the north east of Syrian Highway 2. It involves a WNW track after crossing the Iraqi/Syrian border. Although it is barely transited by civil aircraft there were reports of QR jets using the same route and coming within the same distance (approx 5-10nm) NE of al Tanf as the Mahan Air flight did. On FR24 the only active flight as I make this post is a Syrian Air IL-76 that flew fairly close to al Tanf as well, seemingly without being intercepted. MEA and Iraqi airlines have been reported to use this route too.

I also believe al Tanf is not marked on aeronautical charts as a sensitive military installation. As far as the controlling body for that airspace (Damascus FIR) is concerned it doesn’t exist.

EDIT

Actaully on second inspection the track of the Syrian IL-76 was both lower, closer and more directly headed towards the al Tanf garrison than the Mahan Air flight was.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4da54d79&opt=0

From the flight track on the map at the avherald link you can see Mahan Air was never directly headed towards al Tanf, and stayed to the north/east of that dry salt lake to the north of al Tanf.

Now Syrian Air isn’t in any more contact with the US military than Mahan Air is, so why weren’t they intercepted (along with what seems to be Qatar, MEA and Iraqi airliners as well) while Mahan Air was on the same route?

[lomapaseo]

Sounds like pure propaganda aka fake news to me, sorry.

you mean it never happened?

[filejw]

Seeing as they admit to the intercept how do you find its fake ?

[Old Dogs]

wondering

I believe they lease highly valuable real estate which is susceptible to attack from the air

The Mahan Air flight was on an ICAO flight plan just like Iran Air 655.

The Americans knew EXACTLY who they were and where they were and where they were going.

This is pure American provocation of Iran.

[Old Dogs]

Sounds like pure propaganda aka fake news to me, sorry.

I find it difficult to believe that Air Mahan, who flew this route regularly, intentionally or unintentionally deviated from their clearance and nobody called them on it.

[dr dre]

Further to my post #24 as of 0610 UTC I can see from FR24 the base at al Tanf has been overflown within 10nm by a QR 777 DOH-CMN, an MEA 320 BEY-KWI, along with two QR aircraft headed to BCN and GRU about to cross into Syrian territory from Iraq very close to that base from the east.

Whilst not the world’s busiest air route it does seem a number of civilian airliners regularly fly on the same route as Mahan 1152 and have passed as close or even closer to the base at al Tanf as Mahan did, so why weren’t fighters sent to intercept those airliners???

I find it difficult to believe that Air Mahan, who flew this route regularly, intentionally or unintentionally deviated from their clearance and nobody called them on it.

The track of Mahan 1152 (from this AvHerald link) (https://avherald.com/h?article=4da54d79&opt=0) had it changing course over the Syria/Iraq border (as all the aircraft I’ve watched fly that route have) slightly to the right flying westwards to sort of parallel Syrian Highway 2 and stay north east of al Tanf.

The flying time from the border course change to over/abeam al Tanf is less than 2 minutes. I can’t seriously believe any Air Force could detect, analyse and decide an aircraft needed to be intercepted, and then order an intercept and get jets there in that time. The USAF must have been tracking the aircraft from well within Iraqi airspace. This just gives more credence to the theory the decision to make a fighter intercept of Mahan was made well before it got near to al Tanf.

[Old Dogs]

Thank you for this information.

Again, this suggests American provocation of Iran.

[dr dre]

The US military has established a 55km/35nm radius “deconfliction zone” centred on al Tanf garrison. However this doesn’t explain why other civilian airlines like Qatar and MEA have been crossing well within that zone without any harassment?

[jimjim1]

Even if the Airbus had a TCAS alert, why the violent bunt?

According to FR24 (see first post) there was an initial climb with a reduction in airspeed and then a descent and increase in airspeed back to the original altitude/airspeed. Seems like there must have been a sharpish push over the top.

A standing passenger could have been forced to the floor and then have 'fallen' from there all the way to the ceiling at whatever the max -ve acceleration allowed by the airbus protection is.

I found an unofficial reference to the A320
https://www.theairlinepilots.com/forumarchive/a320/a320-limitations.pdf
FLIGHT MANEUVERING LOAD ACCELERATION LIMITS Clean configuration: -1 g to +2.5 g

[DaveReidUK]

No, the FR24 data (though not very granular) shows an initial loss of height, followed by a climb to above the cruise FL and then a not particularly rapid descent back to FL340, all over the course of about two and a half minutes.

It's hard to reach any firm conclusions based on such sparse data, but it looks like it was the initial pushover that resulted in the reported heads hitting the ceiling.

[tprop]

Regardless of who was supposed to be where and why and whatnot, did the Mahan Airbus jock really think he could outmaneuver an F-15?

[DaveReidUK]

I think you've watched Top Gun too many times.

It wasn't a dogfight.

[radiosutch]

Old Dogs


Just a question/scenario

Ok so there's a flight plan.
Ok so some bad actor puts a civilian transponder on a bomber with all the correct data in it
Ok the target flies the flight plan route.
Ok so the yanks see these 'civilian' plane on primary and secondary radar squawking the correct code, on the flight path

So how do they 'know' what the target is without sending up something to visually ID it??

Just asking for a friend...

[DaveReidUK]

So how do they 'know' what the target is without sending up something to visually ID it??

Nobody has disputed the need for visual identification of the aircraft to determine whether it's friend or foe (the US military learned that lesson the hard way).

It should be possible, however, to do that in a manner that doesn't alarm the crew (if it turns out to be a civilian) and/or trigger a TCAS RA.

[WillowRun 6-3]

IMHO the best point made so far, in questioning the USAF intercept or more pointedly, in arguing that it was in one or more ways improper, is to note the terrible legacy of the Vincennes incident. Which was years ago yet still is a prime factor.

A lesser factor is that other airline operators have, according to the interpretations of flight track data made by others, flown the same, similar, or even more attention-attracting routes without action by the U.S. This cuts both ways, though.

First, those other operators, isn't it clear that they are not standing relative to the U.S. in the confrontational if not adversarial posture that Iran's chief local operator holds? Meaning that the deconfliction processes ostensibly devoted to U.S.-Russia air operations very easily could have been adapted so as to facilitate and enhance assurances about those flights. Mahan, in other words, isn't exactly on the same speaking terms as the other operators.

But second, as noted previously, it's a long-standing conflict zone. Other operators have flown quite comparable routes without difficulty, as far as anyone knows. Mahan knows it is not regarded as the same as those operators - regardless of whose side you take as between the U.S. and Iran, after the Solemani killing, the missile strikes by Iran, and the shooting down of the Ukrainian flight, the fact of anomisity and distrust is . . . a fact.

So if you are flying the Mahan aircraft, shouldn't you be more on guard and anticipating a possible intercept, not just as nominally professional as the other operators - and even more stable at the controls so as not to conduct a sudden evasive manuever?

If, on the other hand, facts emerge that the USAF aircraft approached in unusual, erratic or otherwise threatening ways outside ordinary visual inspection approaches, that would change the facts, considerably.

Might as well go all the way out on the limb: today is the date Iran had committed to delivering the recorders from Ukrainian Flight 752 to the French authorities, per their statement at a recent ICAO Council meeting. If the U.S. decided to conduct a gratuitous, and/or significantly disproportional intercept chiefly or even largely just as provocation for provocation's sake, and the recorders don't get delivered as a result, I'll turn my sarcastic and sometimes valid posts in Washington's direction. Incompetence is a mortal sin.

[tprop]

I think you've watched Top Gun too many times.

It wasn't a dogfight.
I think you missed the point completely. What was the Mahan driver trying to accomplish with his maneuvering?

[dr dre]

Ok so there's a flight plan.
Ok so some bad actor puts a civilian transponder on a bomber with all the correct data in it
Ok the target flies the flight plan route.
Ok so the yanks see these 'civilian' plane on primary and secondary radar squawking the correct code, on the flight path

So how do they 'know' what the target is without sending up something to visually ID it??


How does any country know with 100% certainty that any aircraft entering their airspace isn’t a hostile aircraft faking a transponder code? The scenario you described could apply to any nation. I doubt whether you’re advocating every aircraft overflying a nation to be visually identified by fighters? There’s thousands of overflights every day, looks like the fighters will be busy.

If you’re specifically referring to Syria, then I ask again why weren’t the Qatari and Lebanese Aircraft flying the exact route over the same base intercepted?

[DaveReidUK]

What was the Mahan driver trying to accomplish with his maneuvering?

One would hope that his primary aim was to avoid a collision with the F-15. If so, he appears to have been successful.

[dr dre]

I think you missed the point completely. What was the Mahan driver trying to accomplish with his maneuvering?

Who knows, maybe the F-15 got too close and the PIC of the Airbus thought it was necessary? Unless FDR and CVR data is released to the public it’s only speculation.

I’m more interested in why the F-15s were sent to intercept that specific flight on this specific day, which according to all available tracking data was not doing anything differently to the numerous Qatari, Syrian, Lebanese, Iraqi (and probably Iranian as well) flights that transited the exact same route previously and after this incident as well?

[zerograv]

This wouldn't be the first time that a TCAS alert was responded to excessively, however I doubt that a military jet flying over hostile territory would be using its transponder.

Nothing preventing them from putting their transponder ON for a little bit, one dives from above towards the Mahan, and another one climb from below towards Mahan.

They can even stay at a distance of a 1000 meters from Mahan, as stated by the USAF.

It is the rate-of-closure that is going to trigger the TCAS RA.

As you quite rightly say ... "This wouldn't be the first time that a TCAS alert was responded to excessively"

[Easy Street]

How does anyone here know that previous airliners on similar routes haven’t been intercepted and visually identified by US or other coalition aircraft? It would seem to be a sensible thing to do given how easy it would be for the Iranians to occasionally switch in a military reconnaissance or transport sortie under a routine civil flight plan. If (as I suspect) such interceptions are routine then the only difference this time is likely to be the reaction of the Mahan Air pilot. Even a late TCAS RA (if indeed one was provoked) shouldn’t result in injuries if properly flown: worst case ‘g’ range is +0.65 to +1.35 (https://www.iata.org/contentassets/582fbe33f31240938bcf9f33d4b3d0a1/iata_guidance_assessment_of_pilot_compliance_to_tcas.pdf); nothing and no-one should be floating around the cabin in that range.

[lomapaseo]

Nobody has disputed the need for visual identification of the aircraft to determine whether it's friend or foe (the US military learned that lesson the hard way).

It should be possible, however, to do that in a manner that doesn't alarm the crew (if it turns out to be a civilian) and/or trigger a TCAS RA.

Several posts so far with TCAS mentioned

Is it a fact that TCAS was annunciated or are some just speculating on the role it might have played?

[DaveReidUK]

Facts are thin on the ground (just the conflicting media reports and the inconclusive ADS-B data). TCAS may or may not have played a role, we don't know yet.

Other explanations for the abrupt pushover are available. Like a windscreen full of F-15 ...

[beardy]

If you’re specifically referring to Syria, then I ask again why weren’t the Qatari and Lebanese Aircraft flying the exact route over the same base intercepted?

How do you know they weren't?

[lomapaseo]

Facts are thin on the ground (just the conflicting media reports and the inconclusive ADS-B data). TCAS may or may not have played a role, we don't know yet.

Other explanations for the abrupt pushover are available. Like a windscreen full of F-15 ...

Agree on possible pilot action. But so far I haven't see a passenger complaint about how close the intercept and of course why wouldn't TCAS have annunciated if the F15 was dangerously close.

When we do learn of the question about TCAS, only then might we better understand if the rules of engagement were violated.