RAF Aircraft Role Designation

[Vortex_Generator]

Why are some US sourced RAF aircraft given a UK role suffix, eg:
Sentry AEW1
Airseeker R1
Chinook HC2
Hercules C4
Poseidon MRA1

Whilst others retain their US prefix:
F-35B Lightning
MQ-9A Reaper
C-17A Globemaster

[Easy Street]

Those in the first part of your list are also described as E-3D, RC-135, CH-47, C-130J, P-8. The three of those in bold are used much more widely than their British names within the RAF at large. And the Airseeker is called a Rivet Joint by everyone I’ve ever talked to (admittedly none from 51 Sqn though). I don’t think there’s any rhyme or reason to it.

On F-35, can you imagine the confusion if the UK called the B “Mk1” and maybe later the A “Mk2”? Thankfully we don’t seem to have adopted that either!

[Il Duce]

I believe 51 are more used to referring to the "Replacement Bus Service".

[Wensleydale]

And the Airseeker is called a Rivet Joint by everyone I’ve ever talked to (admittedly none from 51 Sqn though). I don’t think there’s any rhyme or reason to it.



The replacement aircraft for the Nimrod R1 was procured under "Project Airseeker", leading to the choice of the RC-135 "Rivet Joint. As such, the project people referred to the aircraft as "Airseeker" and the name somewhat stuck at various HQs. As you say, everyone calls it the RJ or Rivet Joint except just a few.

[thunderbird7]

Remember European Helicopter Industries 01.... which Maggie mis-referred to as the EH 101...

[Vortex_Generator]

Those in the first part of your list are also described as E-3D, RC-135, CH-47, C-130J, P-8.

I'm aware of this, I just wondered why some are allocated UK designators whilst others are not.

[Easy Street]

I'm aware of this, I just wondered why some are allocated UK designators whilst others are not.

Ah, your OP seemed to suggest that the first group did not retain their US prefixes.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/globemaster-c-17

In UK service, the type is typically referred to as C-17 or Globemaster, no formal RAF role/numerical designation (Globemaster C.Mk 1 would have followed the regular pattern of aircraft titles) being applied, since the aircraft was initially leased.

That doesn't explain the others, though. No idea on those.

[HAS59]

It's a shame that the 'F-35B' is not known as the Lightning ll FGR Mk 1.
They made such a fuss about copying the old serial numbers from the English Electric Lightning for the new jets ...
We never called our Phantoms F-4K's or M's they had the 'proper' designation of Phantom FG Mk 1 and FGR Mk2.
I can only assume that brevity is best in a world where language seems to have sped up.
Accuracy and consistency seem to take second place now.

[Paying Guest]

We never called our Phantoms F-4K's or M's they had the 'proper' designation of Phantom FG Mk 1 and FGR Mk2.

....ah, but what about the J's?

[Willard Whyte]

Not sure if or why it's referred to as a C-17A in RAF service. Boeing and the USAF just use C-17 and the proposed B version remained just that.

Edit: I've just seen reference to C-17A in American transcripts, perhaps the Americans dropped the 'A' when production ceased with just the one variant produced.

RAF designations have caused confusion in the past. I remember speaking to a somewhat perplexed defence attaché when trying to get last minute dip clearances for a Nimrod R1, Sentinel R1, and Shadow R1; he wondered why the same aircraft had three different names!

[possel]

....ah, but what about the J's?
The F4Js were a short term lease - shorter than the C17s.

[Martin the Martian]

The Globemaster has always officially been the C-17A to the USAF, and the use of C-17 only is probably down to laziness.. I believe the last aircraft to enter US service without a variant suffix was the B-29. Every aircraft since has had an 'A suffix even if only one mark was ever used. Examples include the TF/F-102A, F-21A, B-2A and C-29A.

The reason given for not designating the F-4J(UK) as the Phantom F. Mk.3 was seemingly to avoid confusion with the Tornado F. Mk.3, which was not far away from entering service. I can't see the confusion myself; one was a highly capable, well armed interceptor and the other was the Tornado. Sorry, hat and coat etc...

I believe that the MoD recently officially dropped the 'II' in F-35B Lightning II.

[Herod]

I believe that the MoD recently officially dropped the 'II' in F-35B Lightning II.

Shouldn't it be the Lightning III ? Wasn't English Electric's world-beater, actually the Lightning II ? (Cue all the historians who will point out others before/after the P38)

[Davef68]

UK Designations have always been about what the project team proposed and what their Airships accepted. There is usually a rational, but it's not always consistent! Until the C17, other than the F4J(UK) all US types in RAF service had traditional UK designators.

[Rhino power]

The F4Js were a short term lease - shorter than the C17s.

The F-4Js were not leased at all, they were bought outright...

-RP

[Wensleydale]

I wonder how much it costs just to change the name of an aircraft in all of the technical documents and drawings that come with it.....

[Hoots]

Some designations are directed from the Airships and yes it does mean the publications have to be reworked or have a front page added to explain the difference.

[tucumseh]

I wonder how much it costs just to change the name of an aircraft in all of the technical documents and drawings that come with it.....

Agreed. The Sea King ASaC Mk7 was AEW Mk7 'till the last minute, when the RN insisted it be changed. The time to decide was when the configuration control change to the Mk number was agreed. Same with the 'Cerberus' name for part of the mission system. Purely an internal marketing device, which nobody in MoD had heard of until just before ISD. Not quite blank cheque time, but still costly. Companies sit on programme delays without telling MoD, hoping something like this will come along to give them breathing space.

[TBM-Legend]

The RAAF has gone the other way namely B737 AEW&C has been designated as E-7A Wedgetail and our A330 MRTT's as KC-30A's and our yet to be delivered Gulfstream 550 ISR birds are known as MC-55A Peregrine. This allows them to fit in easily in the US military database as known types. Many moons ago USAF exchange officers flying Mirage 111O had trouble entering their flight data in their system as the system couldn't take a name or abbreviation.

[Martin the Martian]

I believe that the MoD recently officially dropped the 'II' in F-35B Lightning II.

Shouldn't it be the Lightning III ? Wasn't English Electric's world-beater, actually the Lightning II ? (Cue all the historians who will point out others before/after the P38)

Yes it should, but as the Americans never flew the English Electric Lightning...

[dctyke]

The Harrier GR5 was not the next mark of the airframe, it was a completely new aircraft.

[SLXOwft]

I pretty sure I saw Phantom F.3 used officially but it was ignored in practice because F-4J(UK) was already in wide use. With the US and UK Rivet Joint aircraft being so intertwined I suspect what ever name the Project Airseeker aircraft were intended to have was quietly forgotten.

Presumably their Airships have a cultural aversion to numbering reused names.
There seems to have been a run on the names of Hawker's Hurricane replacements none of which were II, III etc.

Hawker Tornado - prototype flew but cancelled because RR Vulture scrapped because of the problems in Manchesters (actually worked fine in Tornado)
Hawker Typhoon - the original Tiffy - parallel development to Tornado
Hawker Tempest - ironically briefly Typhoon II

Reused as:
Panavia Tornado
Eurofighter Typhoon
XXXX Tempest

Their Lordships used to have a tendency to have US aircraft with different names e.g Grumman Martlet = Wildcat.

So to avoid confusion over L or L II or F-35B (or even Dave) I suggest in future the UK uses the name of the final descendant of the Hawker Typhoon ...




Lockheed Martin Sea Fury FGR.1 :ok:

[MG]

It was the British that gave the B24 its name, unlike the B17, where we called it the Fortress, without the Flying in its name.

[Martin the Martian]

It was the British that gave the B24 its name, unlike the B17, where we called it the Fortress, without the Flying in its name.

Not quite. The B-17 was always only the Fortress to the USAAF. The 'Flying' part of the name was never officially recognised.

As for the B-24, the RAF adopted the US name. Under the Air Ministry naming conventions of the time bombers and transports were given names of places in the Empire or, in the case of American aircraft, US place names. Examples include the Lockheed Hudson, Douglas Dakota, Martin Baltimore and Martin Maryland, and the B-24 would have received something similar. None of those aircraft were in US military service or had been given US service names by the time they had been adopted by the RAF. As with the later Martin Marauder, Lockheed Ventura and the North American Mitchell, by the time the Fortress and the Liberator were in RAF service they had already been given names by the USAAF. Catalina and Mustang were originally British names.

The trio of Grumman aircraft, Wildcat, Avenger and Hellcat, were named Martlet, Tarpon and Gannet by the Admiralty. US names were later sensibly adopted to avoid confusion. The Corsair entered service after that date and never had an alternative British name.

I recommend Names With Wings: The Names & Naming Systems Of Aircraft & Engines Flown By The British Armed Forces 1878-1994 by Gordon Wainsborough-White (Airlife 1995) but, then, I am complete anorak on such matters.

[sandiego89]

The Harrier GR5 was not the next mark of the airframe, it was a completely new aircraft.

Sometimes politics and money comes into play, and I think the second generation Harrier (or Harrier II) was part of that. Yes the Harrier II/GR5/AV8B was largely an entirely new aircraft, but you want the politicians to think you are just buying an upgraded new and improved model. Well proven, nothing to see here....same with the Super Hornet. 737Max anyone?

Conversely sometimes you don't want them thinking your are buying something already obsolete, and with the peace dividend cancellations the B-29D becomes the B-50! F-102B becomes the F-106....

[Tankertrashnav]

I always hated that name Rivet Joint -when I first heard it I assumed it was some sort of joke. Can anyone tell me the origins or derivation of the name?

[BATCO]

RIVET seems to be a project name/codeword associated with electronic reconnaissance variants of the C135. JOINT is part of a series: AMBER, BRASS, CARD, DANDY.....JOINT.
A bit like project Airseeker (a project name), only the name(s) stuck. So we have RIVET JOINT.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks BATCO :ok: