617 Sqn Grave Vandalised!

[Specaircrew]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1041x1008/20200716_133421_cbff69fd3c8b0bb02afcf129bde2d4110ad1c01e.jpg
As an ex Officer i/c the 'Black Labrador' grave I'm not sure how destroying a gravestone and replacing it with a 'sanitised' version can be justified. Just how many people are 'offended' by history?

[downsizer]

Slightly misleading and inflammatory thread title here in the pprune mil history forum....

It wasn't vandalised, as obviously it was approved, it's been altered.

Frankly IMO, I've got bigger fish to fry. The dogs name is irrelevant.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

It wasn't irrelevant to the dog, Guy Gibson, the other members of 617, or the operation that made it famous.

[downsizer]

We shall have to agree to disagree. It doesn't alter the history at all having the name of the dog removed from a gravestone.

I'd wager a hefty chunk of people these days (I'd say 90%) couldn't tell you the name of the dog. But a larger chunk could tell you of guy Gibson, Six Hundred and Seventeen Sqn, and the Dambusters Raid. I know which one I think is more important and relevant.

[unclenelli]

The dog's name was used as the codeword for "Breach of the Mohne Dam".
Is Paul Brickhill's book being withdrawn from libraries to be reprinted....????


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/617_dog_s_grave_96d116ba019061f2e36a7d7207a6c1b6b76bda02.jpg

The grave is not in the public domain, and all who do have access understand totally its relevence to the history books!

[Crash alot]

Historic fact is never irrelevant, It was not irrelevant to Gibson and the boys on 617 at the time and nor should it be now.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.

To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.

[Out Of Trim]

Historic fact is never irrelevant, It was not irrelevant to Gibson and the boys on 617 at the time and nor should it be now.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.

To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.

Correct! :ok:

[Bob Viking]

What if the dogs name was C*nt (rhymes with hunt)?! Would we still use the name in 2020?

I fully understand history but the ‘N’ word is the one word I just cannot bring myself to ever say out loud (to be fair P*ki is another one) even if it is in reference to a dog.

Regardless of the latest BLM movement I, for one, think the black dog’s name is one thing we can consign to the history books.

I realise that, in this forum, I may well be in the minority and I am certainly not a bleeding hearts Liberal but I think it is actually appropriate to replace the headstone.

I also don’t believe it is in any way disrespectful to the proud history of 617 Sqn and the memory of those that served. Or the dog!

BV

[oggers]

Since embarking upon this book, again and again I have been asked a nervous question: ‘’what are you going to say about the dog ?’. The British people are obsessed with Guy Gibson’s Labrador, which he loved more than any other living creature. A historian’s answer must be that Nigger’s name is as much a fact as were our ancestors’ customs of hanging sheep-stealers, shooting military deserters and imprisoning homosexuals. They said and did things differently then.

Max Hastings.

His name is a fact and it is wrong to erase it from history.

[downsizer]

What if the dogs name was C*nt (rhymes with hunt)?! Would we still use the name in 2020?

I fully understand history but the ‘N’ word is the one word I just cannot bring myself to ever say out loud (to be fair P*ki is another one) even if it is in reference to a dog.

Regardless of the latest BLM movement I, for one, think the black dog’s name is one thing we can consign to the history books.

I realise that, in this forum, I may well be in the minority and I am certainly not a bleeding hearts Liberal but I think it is actually appropriate to replace the headstone.

I also don’t believe it is in any way disrespectful to the proud history of 617 Sqn and the memory of those that served. Or the dog!

BV

Well said.

But it won't sit well with the narrative on this mil history forum.

[Imagegear]

The world is undergoing a phase of self-flagellation with regard to anything controversial, whether it be names, actions, events, people and places.

Think Zimbabwe, colloquially and locally, citizens remember the lives and the culture that was Rhodesia, whether that was for the better or the worse. Changing the name was an isolated event in 400 years of history.

This will turn out to be the same, the people who know, and remember, will not be instantly "reconstructed" because of a change in names. Perhaps in a few hundred years these memories will also have slipped into obscurity

IG

[mikemmb]

“Who controls the past controls the future.
Who controls the present controls the past.“

.....it may be being done with good intentions, but it is still a slippery slope?

[Bob Viking]

With all due respect, I believe you’re wrong.

Nobody is calling Guy Gibson a racist for naming his dog as he did. Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure.

Some people, me included, just think that the name is no longer appropriate. Just as other words have fallen out of useage.

It is not erasing history. It is merely glossing over the name of a dog.

If you would honestly feel comfortable standing in front of a crowd of people and proudly stating aloud the name of the dog without feeling just a hint of embarrassment then well done you. I certainly couldn’t.

I know the black dog’s name is something of a cause celebre on here but I think there are far better things to gnash your teeth about than this.

BV

[downsizer]

“Who controls the past controls the future.
Who controls the present controls the past.“

.....it may be being done with good intentions, but it is still a slippery slope?

See in this instance I don't think so. The grave is still there and anyone so taken can easily find out more about it.

If the grave were removed entirely, that would IMHO be different.

[golfbananajam]

With all due respect, I believe you’re wrong.

Nobody is calling Guy Gibson a racist for naming his dog as he did. Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure.

Some people, me included, just think that the name is no longer appropriate. Just as other words have fallen out of useage.

It is not erasing history. It is merely glossing over the name of a dog.

If you would honestly feel comfortable standing in front of a crowd of people and proudly stating aloud the name of the dog without feeling just a hint of embarrassment then well done you. I certainly couldn’t.

I know the black dog’s name is something of a cause celebre on here but I think there are far better things to gnash your teeth about than this.

BV


While we're at it, lets review names on all grave stones and remove those that cause offence, but offence to who?

Hat, coat etc.

[Bob Viking]

Not all graves attract quite so much attention. And not many have quite such a controversial moniker.

BV

[Blue_Circle]

Historic fact is never irrelevant, It was not irrelevant to Gibson and the boys on 617 at the time and nor should it be now.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.

To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.
Nobody is changing history. It's a physical artefact and therefore archaeology. In this case an object, the history of which is pretty well known.

My opinion on this is that all the people I know personally who get hot under the collar about this issue seem to embrace complaining so as not to lose their sole opportunity to use the word.

[air pig]

With all due respect, I believe you’re wrong.

Nobody is calling Guy Gibson a racist for naming his dog as he did. Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure.

Some people, me included, just think that the name is no longer appropriate. Just as other words have fallen out of useage.

It is not erasing history. It is merely glossing over the name of a dog.

If you would honestly feel comfortable standing in front of a crowd of people and proudly stating aloud the name of the dog without feeling just a hint of embarrassment then well done you. I certainly couldn’t.

I know the black dog’s name is something of a cause celebre on here but I think there are far better things to gnash your teeth about than this.

BV

So you would gloss over the name Heinrich Himmler or Rheinhardt Heydrich then? Both of them a part fo history?

[GeeRam]

The dog's name was used as the codeword for "Breach of the Mohne Dam".
Is Paul Brickhill's book being withdrawn from libraries to be reprinted....????


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/617_dog_s_grave_96d116ba019061f2e36a7d7207a6c1b6b76bda02.jpg

The grave is not in the public domain, and all who do have access understand totally its relevence to the history books!

I agree, its not just the name of a dog, as it has a direct connection to the raid because of its use for successful breach of the Mohne.

As said, its a slippery slope, and this is obviously done in preparation for when the RAF vacate the site, and the grave will be then no longer be off limits to 'joe public'?

I hope that the original stone has not be destroyed, as that really would be a disgraceful.

I can remember as a child going with my Scottish Grandmother into a hardware shop in the days before big DIY stores opened up, when she asked for a tin of ***** Brown paint.

[charliegolf]

I can remember as a child going with my Scottish Grandmother into a hardware shop in the days before big DIY stores opened up, when she asked for a tin of ***** Brown paint.

And they probably had it on a colour card/chart too.

Would the original memorial not be included in 617's history trove?

CG

[just another jocky]

IMO it is wrong to change it, but the opinions of a bunch of ageing privileged white men are hardly relevant to this current societal movement.

And whoever changed it, they missed a full stop after the ".....Black Labrador Dog......." The word Mascot should be the start of a new sentence.

[Wensleydale]

I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade. (And again heresay - the dog was a target of a certain other Vulcan squadron who retaliated during the continuing war of the Tirpitz bulkhead).

[NutLoose]

With all due respect, I believe you’re wrong.

Nobody is calling Guy Gibson a racist for naming his dog as he did. Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure.

Some people, me included, just think that the name is no longer appropriate. Just as other words have fallen out of useage.

It is not erasing history. It is merely glossing over the name of a dog.

If you would honestly feel comfortable standing in front of a crowd of people and proudly stating aloud the name of the dog without feeling just a hint of embarrassment then well done you. I certainly couldn’t.

I know the black dog’s name is something of a cause celebre on here but I think there are far better things to gnash your teeth about than this.

BV

i understand where you are coming from Bob but I also disagree, The name may no longer be appropriate but that does not remove the fact that it was and is fact.

To take it to an extreme, naked images of children are no longer rightly deemed appropriate, but the world if full of art and statues featuring Putti and Cherubs, from the Royal State Coach through to the Vatican there are statues and art featuring putti and cherubs, history is full of art from Rome onwards, do we now remove those items That offend because they to are no longer appropriate in the modern world? Where do you draw a line or stop?

Rome took and put to death slaves, do we delete them from history, one could list faults with most “Civilisations” but at some point if you destroy all history and wipe the map clean, are we better people for it?

I think not, because we learn from our history, our faults, and our progress, without that learning, Slavery, Racism and hate would possibly still be with us at far more prevalent levels than it is now.

Christ is more or less always portrayed as white, but when I was still at School we visited a monastery in Spain or Portugal that had a black infant Christ, and they pointed out that in the Middle East it was quite possible that Christ was of Middle Eastern or of African origins..


History draws a finicky line.

[unclenelli]

....Nobody is saying 617 Sqn were racist or that the RAF are racist for allowing the name to endure......
BV
The N-name doesn't endure - the callsign is now "BlackDog", and isn't used by 617 Sqn!

[PerPurumTonantes]

What if the dogs name was C*nt (rhymes with hunt)?! Would we still use the name in 2020?
BV

I've been called a bleeding heart liberal before, but I'm with OP on this one. If it was called n****r, it was called n****r and that should stay on the gravestone. If you're offended by the truth, tough. If an old fashioned word upsets you so much, don't go around looking at old things.

Same if the name was c**t. Although that's not a fair comparison because as far as I know that's never been an acceptable word, so you would never have someone called that.

Not officially, anyway. :E

[DC10RealMan]

Personally I would be more concerned with the fact that 55 brave young men, the flower of Britain and its Commonwealth failed to return from that raid and now lie buried all over Europe.

[unclenelli]

And whoever changed it, they missed a full stop after the ".....Black Labrador Dog......." The word Mascot should be the start of a new sentence.

But they also changed Oder to Eder! (an original typo!)


I just hope the original is put in a museum somewhere, not trashed in a skip!!!

[Ken Scott]

I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade

The story I heard when I was there was that the dog was never buried outside Gibson’s office at all, the 2 erks detailed to so just threw him over the hedge on the other side of the A15, disturbed the soil and said they’d done it. It seems the dog was none too popular as it was allowed to roam freely (how it ended up dying) leaving it’s mess everywhere which they had to clear up.

[Bob Viking]

I’m sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison. Himmler or Heydrich’s names are not offensive in and of themselves.

I realise you all think I’m just a young upstart with no respect for history but that is not the case.

If OC 617’s surname had been N$&@er I would agree with you. But we’re talking about his dog. Airbrushing over it’s name changes nothing in my opinion.

The Squadron were still undeniably brave and their exploits legend.

I honestly think that people hanging onto the importance of the dog’s name are just using it as an excuse to say a word they know is socially unacceptable in 2020 but they feel they have an entitlement to use because it is the right of their generation.

I’m being blunt and that’s because I have been drinking wine but the gist of what I’m saying would be unchanged if I were sober.

BV

[MG]

BV, wine soaked, or not, I completely agree with you. The name is historical but not significant enough for it to be regarded as a national treasure. Its time has passed and I think this replacement is sympathetically done enough to show the significance to the event in 1943 but not to cause offence. I’d rather have this new plaque than wait a while longer and have the original vandalised by some oik and it splattered all over Faceagram for effect. Let’s face it, we’ve allsniggered at its ‘naughtiness’ for years so we knew its time was over.

[langleybaston]

BV, wine soaked, or not, I completely agree with you. The name is historical but not significant enough for it to be regarded as a national treasure. Its time has passed and I think this replacement is sympathetically done enough to show the significance to the event in 1943 but not to cause offence. I’d rather have this new plaque than wait a while longer and have it vandalised by some oik and it splattered all over Faceagram for effect. Let’s face it, we’ve all really sniggered at its ‘naughtiness’ for years.

I do hope that those who paid to replace the headstone were not niggardly.

[downsizer]

^^^^^That's a different word with a different meaning. Not quite sure what you are trying to prove LB? Other than being obtuse.

[BEagle]

I honestly think that people hanging onto the importance of the dog’s name are just using it as an excuse to say a word they know is socially unacceptable in 2020 but they feel they have an entitlement to use because it is the right of their generation.

I agree. Oh - and Specaircrew, as a member of 35 Sqn I have of course upheld the tradition of peeing on that so-called grave!

If you look at the last few minutes of The Dambusters when 'Gibson' and 'Barnes Wallis' are talking, a black dog can be seen running about in the background. It was thought by the tinfoil hat brigade that this was the ghost of Gibson's dog - but I heard lter that when a member of the film crew queried this with some airman, he replied "No mate, there's no n***** at Scampton" using the contemporary expression for a 'person of colour'......

A Nigerian chap on the CFS course after mine remarked "Will I get a grave that good if I crash and kill myself?"

[SOX80]

My problem with this is that the controversy surrounding the name of the dog detracts from remembering what they all did. It is difficult to have a discussion about the Dambusters without it coming up somewhere (ooooh they are remaking the film, what are they going to call the dog?). Like it or not the word is now controversial and deeply offensive to some so it is probably time, not to 'erase it from history' but to at least try to remove it from things that are obviously in the public domain, if that means taking it off a gravestone then so be it. However if someone asks what the name of the dog was there is no need to lie and I wouldn't want to see the name removed from books on the subject or of course from historical records.

[Specaircrew]

The original gravestone was given a tour of the dams when it was nicked by a 4 Sqn Det in the early eighties. The Staish and OC 617 Sqn went harpic and it was returned pronto! No doubt the prick that decided to replace the gravestone is demanding that libraries burn all the books with 'bad words' in them.

[ivor toolbox]

The dog's name was used as the codeword for "Breach of the Mohne Dam".
Is Paul Brickhill's book being withdrawn from libraries to be reprinted....????


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/617_dog_s_grave_96d116ba019061f2e36a7d7207a6c1b6b76bda02.jpg

The grave is not in the public domain, and all who do have access understand totally its relevence to the history books!

But with the rumoured plan being closure of Scampton and disposal of the real estate, it might well end up being in public view, and devalue said real estate

Just my twopence

Ttfn

[just another jocky]

It is the grave of a dog. Yes the owner was very famous the night it was buried, but it is the grave of a dog, nothing more. Agree with Bob V.

To all those of you who have never been a Dambuster....your opinions on the worth of dismantling part of the history of a Sqn you have not been a member of are barely relevant.

To those of us who have been, or still are, Dambusters, I can't imagine too many of us would agree with the cancellation of a part of the founding history of our Sqn.

It was the Gibsons' dog's name, it forms a relevant and poignant part of our Sqn history from that day to this.

No disrespect intended.

[Arfur Dent]

My parents met in Kenya (Durban) during the war when he was a Sunderland Captain on 209 Squadron and she was a CPO Wren.
Life was different then when people had "servants" when, in UK, they would not. What they called them was not insulting - it was just the language of the day which, thankfully has changed.

[5000 metres]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1041x1008/20200716_133421_cbff69fd3c8b0bb02afcf129bde2d4110ad1c01e.jpg
...replacing it with a 'sanitised' version can be justified. Just how many people are 'offended' by history?

Personally, I am offended by the notion that a human can ‘own’ a dog.

[NutLoose]

Where do you stop all this PC’ness? An RAF Wardog, has it not earned its right to be buried under its own name? It earned its number.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1111/107779269_136503874123_e6d2c7955a2945ac6cb218e5071f70a687bc3 856.jpg

[Arfur Dent]

Absolutely agree Nutty.
It's one of our great hero's dogs FFS.
Have any of you who complain about such things ever tried to fly the route they flew that night when they destroyed the dams?
I have - in a fighter during daylight and it was bloody difficult - the Eder is mind boggling.
His dog died - so did several of his crews.
Thanks to all of you. Amazing feat of flying and courage. Who cares what the bloody dog was called???

[Vortex Hoop]

Terrible PC bollix. 'Nigger' was indeed a part of the history of the raid and should not be 'cancelled' from history. I hope the idiot at Scampton who ordered this vandalism finds no peace.

[sharpend]

We are all entitled to our views. The original plaque did not bother anyone, so why change it? My own personal view is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the name that Wg Cdr Gibson gave his dog; a common name for a black Lab at the time. We cannot change history, just learn from it.

[Waltzer]

A lot of people in the thread above say they would never use the N word.
I’m the same, I wouldn’t either.
Let’s not forget that members of the black community, particularly males, refer to each other as N****r to this day.

[WB627]

We are all entitled to our views. The original plaque did not bother anyone, so why change it? My own personal view is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the name that Wg Cdr Gibson gave his dog; a common name for a black Lab at the time. We cannot change history, just learn from it.

Very common at the time I understand, along with the name Sam** my FIL (ex Lanc pilot) gave the family black lab in 1964, at the insistence of one of his Indian friends. They had second thoughts almost this as soon as they named him and he was always called Sam.

Different times, different values. history is history, you cannot change it, as much as you might like to.

[Bob Viking]

I have drunk more wine since my last post but my feelings have not changed.

I understand Squadron tradition etc but I am a white man with little sympathy for leftist leanings and I hate the word.

I honestly don’t care that it was acceptable 77 years ago. It isn’t now.

Anybody who knows about RAF history knows the real name of the dog. Anybody who doesn’t know the original name can read about it on Wikipedia.

Seriously people, don’t let your dislike for the contemporary habit of erasing history from distracting you from the fact that ni&@er is a word that just doesn’t need to be used in 2020.

Disagree with me all you like but you won’t change my mind.

Anyway, back to my wine.

BV

[NutLoose]

Anybody who knows about RAF history knows the real name of the dog. Anybody who doesn’t know the original name can read about it on Wikipedia.

They might now, but if removed from history along with the code word, they won’t in a 150 years or so.

Mind you we’ll all have probably been genetically modified by then to survive on the planet we destroyed and will all be a tasteful shade of grey.

[Bob Viking]

So what?!

It’s the name of a dog.

Nobody is erasing the history of the Dambusters raid. Nobody is erasing the fact that Guy Gibson won a VC for leading a Squadron on an incredibly dangerous mission during a fight for national survival.

What has happened is that someone has seen fit to change a memorial plaque to a dog (a fricking’ dog!) that had a name that is no longer acceptable.

Honesty, drunken BV is really struggling to see what the Bloody problem is.

BV

[NutLoose]

Along with the code word bob, enjoy your vino :)

[Nil by mouth]

Let's remember this was the 1940's and referring to black people as niggers was the norm.
It was still common in the 60's as I can remember buying a polo shirt from BHS in Brighton that the colour was labelled as 'Nigger Brown'.
Again in the 60's we had a weekly 'To Death us do Part' where black folk were referred to as 'Coons'. Other TV shows such as 'Love thy Neighbour' and the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' were standard viewing.
It's history and can't be whitewashed [Sic].

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Bob, what’s your position on Brickhill’s book? Pulp all copies, or just take a black marker pen to the offending bits?

[Bob Viking]

I understand how history works. I also understand how words such as the N word were used by many people in the past.

Your last example cite the 60s and 70s. Maybe it’s time to move on or maybe accept that your views are no longer appropriate.

Your opinion will undoubtedly be that I am a young upstart with no respect for his elders. I’m afraid that, increasingly, my opinion is that some people have no respect for other humans.

Yes, the wine has taken hold. But I’m not sorry.

BV

[Bob Viking]

Leave the book as it was. I’ve read it and appreciate it for what it was. I doubt if Paul Brickhill would wish his entire book to be remembered for the name of a dog.

I never said we should erase history. I’m just saying that a plaque that commemorates a dog (a dog!!) at a base that will soon cease to be a military establishment being altered is not the end of the world.

I guess this is a generational thing. Many of you think I have no respect for my forebears. The trouble is that, the more I read, the more I think some of you have no respect for your successors.

I guess we’re all wrong in each other’s eyes.

BV

[BBK]

Bob V

Well said! The “N” word is highly offensive and that’s widely recognised although not here on this forum perhaps.

I think we all believe that the heroism of 617 Sqn should be respected but it’s a small price to pay, in my view, to quietly drop reference to the dog’s name. Not in official records or historical books but where it might seen in public.

[tigerfish]

You simply cannot and should not attempt to change History! It was acceptable then, in the context of those times, and to try and change it today is an insult to the memory of those brave men who served their Country then.
I am offended by that insult to our History, but I guess that my sense of insult does not matter today in the fashionably sense of what is right today! Erase our History is the watchword.

TF

[V-Jet]

One of the principles of Ingsoc. Orwell would be pleased.

In my opinion simply changing the headstone is vandalism in and of itself. It should be considered an irreplaceable War Grave.

Changing the words is another whole level of desecration. Gibson was not known for his enjoyment of fools and I could well imagine his thoughts at such an outrage. Has anyone thought of that? It was his dog, his name was immortalised with a specific historical significance and now we whitewash it? (pun intended).

This is akin to removing the names of all previous Prime Ministers because like the Egyptians there surely can only be one leader. Where is this complete nonsense going to stop???

Not in official records or historical books but where it might seen in public. Aren't records public? If you can't see something what's the point?

Whilst on the subject, perhaps we should get rid of all Roman history, aqueducts, Coliseum, in fact, level Rome (I know a good code word when it's done) most of Greece, the Pyramids, Bath, dig up and remove all stonework under almost every road in Europe....

[kghjfg]

I have been told that the dog is not there anyway. The story I heard at Scampton many years ago was that there had been several attempts to locate the grave but all had failed (many after dining in nights)...the railings were put round to prevent any further excursions into the dark armed with a spade. (And again heresay - the dog was a target of a certain other Vulcan squadron who retaliated during the continuing war of the Tirpitz bulkhead).

I once flew with a pilot who had served at Scampton during the war when 617 left Scampton.

He too said the actual grave wasn’t there.

He also said he knew where it really is, and those that were there in the war knew.

However he wouldn’t share the information.

(I have to add this even though it’s off topic.
He also got completely lost in a Wellington one night, and was in a Lancaster that looped, pulling up hard to avoid fighters, decided it was probably best just to try and go over the top, the aircraft held together and all was well. I didn’t realise the bombers were thrown around quite so much, but apparently they were when fighters turned up.)

[flighthappens]

The controversy around the dogs name is distracting from the actual valour shown on the raid. For that alone I personally advocate dropping it....as BV has said - it’s a dog. I’d rather recognise the heroism of the men involved.

[MG]

Did the communique read by the BBC, announcing the raid the morning after, include the line ‘...and the raid leader’s dog also died’? No, I guess not. My assessment then is that the dog wasn’t really an integral part of that history, therefore, no-one is trying to re-write history, apart from those elevating the status of a dog to that of deity.

[Islandlad]

I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors. Here we go.

What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.

By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.

Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.

And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.

The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.

[Richard Dangle]

^^

Good post and a worthy contribution. Used intellectually, and in specific circumstances, the "history" defence is valid, credible and necessary. Used glibly, as a catch all, it's just naked institutionalied racism. This is very clearly the latter. The contribution of the hound and codeword are insignificant, the word is nowadays utterly beyond the pale to any decent human being, the row completely detracts from one of the great feat of arms of warfare.

That's my ten penneth...I'm moving on, so should some of you.

[MG]

Your ten pennath is well spent! A perfect summary, in my view.

[Trossie]

1984 is coming to life. Winston Smith too.

The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.

Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?

[MadJackMcMad]

BV shows the demonstrable behaviour all officers should show - leading by example.

[plainmaker]

I am sorry but I take issue with the notion that the 'N' word has become 'grossly offensive'. So when did that change? Probably about the same time that the 'F' word became acceptable to use in public. I still find the 'F' word offensive, probably harking back when I my derriere thumped for using it.

The word was enshrined in the common law for many years as its use would invite a charge of offensive language - despite the use of it double-barrelled by our American cousins invoking one's maternal parent. Same with the 'C' word - a derogatory term that could otherwise be described by its proper definition.

So this concept of 'offensive' is purely manufactured. I say become an engineer (you know, build a bridge and get over it). I shall retire now to eat my pork pie in the local synagogue. :*:ugh:

[Specaircrew]

^^

.....the word is nowadays utterly beyond the pale to any decent human being....

Oh dear, and with that you've just offended large swathes of the black community who use 'the word' in everyday language, how racist are you?🤣

[The B Word]

Trying to be a bit more objective in the approach to the debate, you actually need to look at the etymology of the word. The first real use of the word dates back to Roman times and the word Nigrum or Niger which means black or dark. As many western languages are based upon Latin then it doesn’t seem surprising that the word is prevalent in English, Spanish/Portuguese (negro), French (nègre), Dutch (neger) or Italian (nero). There are also various forms in the English language - namely niger, nigger, neger and negar.

Well before the Slave Trade and the racism that ensued from the period, the word was used in various texts from the 1500s. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes”.

The use of the word ‘nigger’ as derogatory term developed later In the late 18th Century alongside the established use that had been ongoing for literally millennia before that (that being in reference to a dark or black colour). It was used to put down people with African origin, mostly in the Americas, and that is where the offensive use remained for many years. It probably reached it’s pinnacle of awareness in the racial context in the 1950s and 1960s with the work to end segregation in the USA.

So, it really comes down to intent. If Gibson named his dog ‘nigger’ as he saw it as a way to put down people with black skin, then that would indeed be a racist intent. However, if he named his dog ‘nigger’ due to the Latin derivation and the fact the word, at that point, had not become such a word of abhorrence amongst many today, then that is a different matter. As others have said, we cannot erase history, and we shouldn’t - if amongst Gibson’s memoirs we find that the naming of his dog was with racist intent then of course it should be called out and the name removed. If not, the dog’s name should remain and people should be educated that there are 2 contexts to the word ‘nigger’ - one which dates back thousands of years to the Latin language and the other, which is with derogative intent, should never be used.

[Vortex Hoop]

I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors.
[snip]

The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.

Ahhh, the old "it's 2020 not 1820" routine. Bravo.

Just because time has passed on the Gregorian calendar doesn't mean that 'stuff in the past' should be arbitrarily dumped. Democracy, monarchy and marriage are all old. Do we dump those too?

Despite your post calling us racist time and time again, in these awful times of mob rule the R word has ceased to have any further useful meaning as it is thrown about too easily.

[Bing]

Just a thought, but if you were an ethnic minority service member at the station or even just in the RAF, how would you feel if the management thought remembering a dog's name was more important than not having a derogatory term for you in plain sight?
My unit has a lot of ethnic minority service personnel, and frankly I'd find it impossible to justify leaving it up even if none of them complained about it.

[beamer]

Just a couple of observations.

I don't believe the gravestone should have been changed but I am all too aware of the politically correct times in which we exist and therefore I was disappointed rather than surprised.

On my many visits to Scampton for exercises and courses, I was always under the impression that the dog was not actually in the grave. Perhaps he was 'thrown over the hedge' or maybe it was those naughty Vulcan co-pilots !


I am getting tired of being expected to apologise for historical events upon which my generation nor my parents or grandparents generation had no control.

The silent majority will not remain silent for much longer if these trends continue.

I wonder who actually made this decision - Air Force Board, AOC, Staish or OC Admin ?

To those who continually say 'it was just a dog', I would simply say this; I would rather spend eternity with my dogs than the majority of human beings I have encountered in forty five years of flying !

[Tashengurt]

Imagine a black 17 year old LAC walking past the original and seeing that word.
How valued would they feel in this 21st century Royal Air Force?

Edit: I see Bing essentially makes the same point above.

[Pete Edwards]

I am going to call my next Black Lab dog 'Gibson'.
As to the 17 year old LAC, I would hope,having enlisted in the Royal Air Force that he/she or whatever,would be aware of the history of that remarkable raid.

[Union Jack]

Although being dark blue I don't really have a dog in this fight, I would be intrigued to have a glimpse of all the relevant paperwork leading up to the decision to alter the memorial.

On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.

Jack

[Tashengurt]

Although being dark blue I don't really have a dog in this fight, I would be intrigued to have a glimpse of all the relevant paperwork leading up to the decision to alter the memorial.

On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.

Jack

I was a 17 year old LAC once upon a time.

[brakedwell]

Why not get rid of the dog's grave. History doesn't matter anymore, to hell with the past, including the Damn Buster Raid. We have to join the 'modernistas' and decry the past and all the horrible things that were done to upset the modern PC gang!

[esscee]

Goes to show how bizarre/bonkers/mad the world has become due to various "useful idiots" on "anti-social" media. Far more important matters that require very urgent attention in these strange times.

[ericferret]

I am going to call my next Black Lab dog 'Gibson'.
As to the 17 year old LAC, I would hope,having enlisted in the Royal Air Force that he/she or whatever,would be aware of the history of that remarkable raid.

I have just realised and am ashamed to admit that my grandmother was a rascist.

She too had a black labrador which she of course called

Paddy

Oh the shame.

[brakedwell]

I have just realised and am ashamed to admit that my grandmother was a rascist.

She too had a black labrador which she of course called

Paddy

Oh the shame.
That is a terrible crime!

[MPN11]

My son's 2 black labs are called Digger and Diesel. Just one small typo away from disaster!

[brakedwell]

That is a real insult to Diggers and Diesels MPN11!

[Union Jack]

I was a 17 year old LAC once upon a time.

I do beg your pardon - Space Cadets or CCF?:D

Jack

[Tashengurt]

I do beg your pardon - Space Cadets or CCF?:D

Jack

Do feel free to demean my service.

[Saintsman]

Perhaps we should do something about Operation Black Buck.

What message does a name like that send?

[simmple]

https://www.change.org/p/r-a-f-scampton-get-name-back-on-his-memorial?recruiter=22356548&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=1a1529b0-c721-0130-fef0-3c764e049b13&utm_content=fht-23507560-en-gb%3A4

wont make the slightest bit of difference but there is a petition to get the grave de vandalised

[highflyer40]

Personally, I am offended by the notion that a human can ‘own’ a dog.

That’s just what dogs want you to think. They are the real owners. Now cats on the other hand are quite content to let you know they are the owners and you the pet.

[downsizer]

or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.

Jack

How do you figure that out?

[machtuk]

I consider that historical vandalism and for what! To appease the snowflake I'm offended weak? Utter stupidity, some ought to be ashamed of their righteous ridiculous actions!

[Union Jack]

Do feel free to demean my service.
I assure you (and anyone else concerned by my post) that I had, and have no intention of demeaning either, or indeed any other organisation's service or rank structure. Perhaps you would care to elaborate.

Jack

[rogerk]

Maybe they should replace it with a statue of the dog standing on his back legs with his right paw raised ?

[ZH875]

Maybe it's time to disband 617 Sqn and confine it to history. Hopefully then the dogs name and Moehne breach codeword can be forgotten about. That way all the snowflakes can be happy again.
#TheyDiedSoSnowflakesCanWhinge

[bigsmelly]

The dog didn't fly the raid. The dog didn't design the bomb.

[Lima Juliet]

Although being dark blue I don't really have a dog in this fight, I would be intrigued to have a glimpse of all the relevant paperwork leading up to the decision to alter the memorial.

On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.

Jack

UJ

You may not have a dog in the fight old boy, but you certainly have a few pussies! It would seem that Nigger was a common name for a ship’s cat if they were black...

http://www.purr-n-fur.org.uk/famous/antarctic/ant01-terranova1910expdtn-nigger03-crew.jpg
http://www.purr-n-fur.org.uk/famous/antarctic/ant01-terranova1910expdtn-nigger04-jump.jpg

If you want to find Nigger from HMS RECLAIM then the cat’s grave is in 300 ft of water in Taormina Bay. Turn to page 9 of the following link: http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/RN_Diving_Magazine_Vol_4_No_2.pdf

Then of course there is always HMS NIGER, 8 of them to be exact - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Niger

So, standby for history cancelation. Indeed, I believe that various Boards of the tri-Services need to watch a bit of Jonathan Pie to understand what they are doing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5TVLEaqqdI

[teeteringhead]

Many, many years ago, one of my Eng Lit O'Level set texts was a work by Joseph Conrad, and titled "The N***** on the Narcissus".

What happens to that now??

[esa-aardvark]

Used to be able to get 'Darkie' toothpaste in Thailand, then the name was changed to Darlie.

So why not just change the name of the dog. Apart from its original short name the name
'Nigel' comes to mind.

[Lima Juliet]

If enjoyed the Pie rant, then here is another on the subject matter at hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9_bI789Gog

[BBK]

From over the pond I would contend this is leadership.

https://youtu.be/mU0RfhvYN8s

[fltlt]

Imagine a black 17 year old LAC walking past the original and seeing that word.
How valued would they feel in this 21st century Royal Air Force?

Edit: I see Bing essentially makes the same point above.

So you name your son John. Now open that can of worms.

[Bob Viking]

I’m very sorry but I think many of you are conflating two subtly different issues.

The wider trend for erasing history is not something I agree with.

I believe I have made it quite clear, though, that when it comes to the dog’s name I believe the actions taken at Scampton are the correct course. This is not me swallowing a loyalty pill or being a snowflake.

I am very glad that the RAF I belong to is willing to take the unpopular (amongst some) action of doing something that is actually the morally correct thing to do.

If someone were to advocate removing a statue of Guy Gibson on the grounds that his choice of pet name made him a racist I would be right with you at the front of the outrage bus.

I think you need to separate this from the statue toppling and book burning antics and ask yourself why the name of the dog matters to you so much.

Do you really want the prevailing narrative about the legend of the Dambusters to be about GG’s dog? Or would you rather people knew and heard about the incredible and heroic missions they undertook?

Call me a snowflake if you wish (if you knew me you’d know that is not true) but I just think, on this issue, the ire of many is misplaced.

BV

[SOX80]

Being a white middle class pilot in a pretty exclusive white middle class world I have never been on the receiving end of any persecution (being forced to change the name of a dog on a gravestone is not persecution). What I have got from the recent protests around this issue is that we really haven't been very nice to a large swathe of the worlds population for a long time. For those above that complain about history being re-written, history is generally written by the victors and persecutors, history is an interpretation of facts and events, it is a fluid thing. Calling dogs 'nigger' or referring to a colour as 'nigger brown' probably was offensive to people back then, they just didn't have a voice and didn't write the subsequent history. If small gestures like saying we will remove an offensive name or take down statues which celebrate slave traders can go someway to making reparations for some pretty dark times, and can make some members of our society feel less persecuted then I am all for it. It is so easy, as with all things today to completely polarise the issue to either: Snowflake - get rid of anything or anyone with any reference or context of racism or indeed anything I don't like, to Gammon - It is British history, my granny said 'nigger' we can't change anything, screw you. The solution clearly lies somewhere in the middle with a bit of a cultural shift, hopefully.

[Asturias56]

"Do you really want the prevailing narrative about the legend of the Dambusters to be about GG's dog? Or would you rather people knew and heard about the incredible and heroic missions they undertook?"


Well said Bob - it's 6 pages on here about the (now) offensive name of a dog - which didn't even go on the mission.

[Timelord]

Without in any way minimising the skill or heroism of the crews, I think it would be worth remembering that even in the immediate aftermath the RAF recognised that the good Public Relations generated by the raid were as significant as its military effect. Gibson was sent on lecture tours, including to the USA, and the legend was built up by the book and then the film and by commemorations to an extent that the survivors of the Main Force squadrons rather resented. The dog and it’s dubious surviving grave became part of that legend. So, if we accept that PR is a significant part of the whole 617 Sqn “thing”, why would we use it to offend a large portion of the modern public by publicising what is NOW an offensive word.

[Pontius Navigator]

My son's 2 black labs are called Digger and Diesel. Just one small typo away from disaster!
Snigger

😁

[VintageEngineer]

Trigger warning: the link below contains racist language.

What does the dog’s ghost (https://hauntedhistoryoflincolnshire.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/surrounding-areas/newark/) have to say?

[42go]

Is there something offensive about Niesel?

[Out Of Trim]

Without in any way minimising the skill or heroism of the crews, I think it would be worth remembering that even in the immediate aftermath the RAF recognised that the good Public Relations generated by the raid were as significant as its military effect. Gibson was sent on lecture tours, including to the USA, and the legend was built up by the book and then the film and by commemorations to an extent that the survivors of the Main Force squadrons rather resented. The dog and it’s dubious surviving grave became part of that legend. So, if we accept that PR is a significant part of the whole 617 Sqn “thing”, why would we use it to offend a large portion of the modern public by publicising what is NOW an offensive word.

Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.

This is what happens when PC goes too far!

[RetiredBA/BY]

I fully understand history but the ‘N’ word is the one word I just cannot bring myself to ever say out loud (to be fair P*ki is another one) even if it is in reference to

BV Never understood why Paki was considered offensive to those of Pakistani origin.

During the 10 years I lived in Australia I was often referred to as the Pom or Pommy. Hardly made me angry, or “ upset” far from it ! Thought of it as term of affection from my mates !

C, mon guys get a grip, the dog’s name was Nigger period.

[Timelord]

Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.

This is what happens when PC goes too far!

But it isnt about history, if it was then 35 or 44 would be flying F35s. It’s about PR.

[air pig]

The N-name doesn't endure - the callsign is now "BlackDog", and isn't used by 617 Sqn!
Used by the CRC at Scampton as shown on the Sky programme. 16:40 8n.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hijzP1zzLI

[air pig]

Terrible PC bollix. 'Nigger' was indeed a part of the history of the raid and should not be 'cancelled' from history. I hope the idiot at Scampton who ordered this vandalism finds no peace.
No Wing commander would do this unless they had top cover from the CAS downwards. Because if they had not authority, they'd be having a hats on interview without coffee or biccies and their career would becoming to a screaming halt.

[Out Of Trim]

But it isnt about history, if it was then 35 or 44 would be flying F35s. It’s about PR.

Then this PR farce was unnecessary! This PR change has brought about the opposite to that intended. It has brought attention to a feeble attempt to try and cover up a perceived offensive slur that did not exist!

[Timelord]

Well anyway, it will all be a housing estate soon and the “gravestone “ in a museum at best. Maybe it’s in preparation for that the wording has been changed.

[Pontius Navigator]

Air Pig, only true to a point. You makes your pitch, you pursade your boss and when it goes to rats hit, one boss may cover you and the other duck for cover. Either way you have a black mark against your name.

[SwitchMonkey]

Look at all the healthy discussion this has generated! Considering whether the “17 year old LAC” would, or should, be offended by the original gravestone is to my mind what BLM is asking us to do and what the almost endless D&I initiatives have been trying to instill.

I would be disappointed if anyone on this forum held the view that it would be acceptable to apply the dog’s name to anybody today; I can, however, accept people have different views and opinions about the historical use.

Perhaps by changing the gravestone we have missed the opportunity to have a colocated Force Development info panel inviting people to reflect on the changing attitudes to race in the Armed Forces and wider society? Of course, the same or similar info panel could be placed next to the new gravestone. History is important, learning from it is very important.

As far as the gravestone goes I’m ambivalent, but for the wider issue of what people find acceptable or offensive please don’t “catch up & shut up” or “move on”. We won’t get everything right, and today’s right might be judged differently in the future, but open minds are going to be healthier than closed ones.

If any of that offends you, great - tell me why and maybe I can learn from your perspective and experiences.


(Edited for poor spelling & grammar - which is obviously offensive!)

[air pig]

Air Pig, only true to a point. You makes your pitch, you pursade your boss and when it goes to rats hit, one boss may cover you and the other duck for cover. Either way you have a black mark against your name.

And that will happen all the way up the CoC as happens in the NHS. This case is so potentially volatile I can't see a relatively junior officer making such a decision on their own unless they wanted career suicide.

[just another jocky]

Do you really want the prevailing narrative about the legend of the Dambusters to be about GG’s dog? Or would you rather people knew and heard about the incredible and heroic missions they undertook?


Until some idiot decided to re-write history, it was all about the mission. Trying to erase the past has brought this back into the light, not those of us who can see that this is wrong and are railing at the idiocy of it.

Consider this: if we remove all references (and I mean ALL, once you've started this, you can't stop here) to our racist past, how do our children learn about just how racist our society was and see how far things have moved forwards and how much further there is still to go? Changing the past to suit some current version of what is 'politically correct' is wrong at every level. That's not racist, it applies to everything, irrespective of colour, race, gender, religion etc etc etc.

[rigpiggy]

Perhaps we should do something about Operation Black Buck.

What message does a name like that send?
Well my first thought was. The blackbuck (Antilope cervicapra), also known as the Indian antelope, is an antelope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antelope) found in India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), Nepal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal), and Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan). The blackbuck is the sole extant member of the genus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_(biology)) Antilope.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1203/velavdar_prits_2014_2b702_293f2581866702cf282f2784b7ffe7e1c3 147381.jpg

[rigpiggy]

During the 10 years I lived in Australia I was often referred to as the Pom or Pommy. Hardly made me angry, or “ upset” far from it ! Thought of it as term of affection from my mates !
.


Or being called by extended family in the UK "those damned colonials" really pissed off the grandmother that her son marrying a damned colonial(beneath her stead) was a viscountess with more points on the crown than she had.IE: he married up

[Finningley Boy]

Well my first thought was. The blackbuck (Antilope cervicapra), also known as the Indian antelope, is an antelope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antelope) found in India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India), Nepal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepal), and Pakistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan). The blackbuck is the sole extant member of the genus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_(biology)) Antilope.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1203/velavdar_prits_2014_2b702_293f2581866702cf282f2784b7ffe7e1c3 147381.jpg

Are these cummin over 'ere an all then. Bleedin' 'ell, political correctness gawn mad it is!

FB

[Tashengurt]

Because history was about THEN! It can't be changed... It is what it was. The dog's name was not meant to be offensive then and should not be taken out of context to be seen as a racial slur NOW! That should be able to be explained to those that take offence when no offence was meant.

This is what happens when PC goes too far!

But it's not out of context! The context is (was) a memorial which displayed a word which is no longer deemed acceptable and a multicultural organisation which deemed it no longer justifiable in the current setting.
You can't have something which is in existence today and claim it's only relevant to yesterday!

[SOX80]

I hate to add fuel to the fire but the CRC callsign 'BlackDog' was changed a few weeks back. The gravestone I kind of get, the callsign change not so much.

[clark y]

The following is part of the Australian War Memorial disclaimer in Canberra.

"It may also include historically and culturally sensitive images and moving images, sound recordings, words, terms or descriptions; such material does not reflect the Memorial’s viewpoint but rather the social attitudes and circumstances of the period or place in which it was created."


I've always liked that statement because it highlights that the memorial has chosen to reflect history as accurately as possible. You will see racist slurs amongst the exhibits. I'd like to think Switchmonkey is correct and that no one would actually use the name anymore.

[Corporal Clott]

Listen to Luther Blissett and John Barnes with their wise words: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-53436824

Barnes told the BBC: "I don't believe tearing down statues or changing names is the answer.

"It's about educating people about what went on in the past - but you have to be balanced."

Watford Borough Council is looking at renaming (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-53421061) Rhodes Way, Clive Way, Colonial Way and Imperial Way in order to "reflect forward thinking".

[olddog]

Let sleeping dogs lie. History cannot be changed. Only what we choose to remember. I read about Nigger and saw the film when I was about 10. He will always be Nigger in my mind, which is where it matters!

[Nil by mouth]

If this historical deletion and PC that is running rife continues, call sign Zulu (Battle of Rorke's Drift between the British Army and the Zulus in January 1879, during the Anglo-Zulu War.) will have to be changed to Zoo???

[unclenelli]

Whatever the dog's name....
The Dog was NOT a Slave trader
The Dog was NOT a Racist
The Dog ate dog food and drank Beer

The Dog deserves the respect of his grave!!!!

[ex-EGLL]

Having just done a quick reverse phone number lookup of the surname N****r, there are a few around. Who's going to explain to them that PC requires that they change it lest some snowflake becomes offended?

[WildRover]

Historic fact is never irrelevant, It was not irrelevant to Gibson and the boys on 617 at the time and nor should it be now.
Changing history to suit current social-political climate is a slippery slope.

To be clear, I have no particular like of that name, but it was what it was and as such should remain as it was.

Totally agree.

[vascodegama]

SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.

[Wensleydale]

SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.

There was a rumour at the time that the Squadron had used their original callsign on a deployment to the USA and not surprizingly had caused quite a rumpus leading it to be changed.

[andytug]

The real question is, will going around changing names on memorials, removing statues, etc actually change attitudes and by extension reduce the racism in society in general, or will it just be a load of empty gestures and things stay the same when the 24/7 media with its goldfish attention span has moved on to another subject?

If the latter then it’s all been a waste of time. For me this falls into the second category, it should be left as is as an example of the culture of its time, kept in its proper context, and used to educate people. Removing it also removes the opportunity to educate.

[Miles Magister]

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984 (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313)

[SOX80]

No, I mean the CRC callsign is no longer BlackDog, it was changed because, I assume, BlackDog was deemed potentially offensive. I believe it is now Crowbar.

SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.

[Trossie]

Over 70 years ago, George Orwell predicted exactly this sort of re-writing history, with facts that don't suit current political dogma being permanently deleted and then even the 'new' facts being deleted again when that dogma changes.

1984 is coming to life. Winston Smith too.

The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.

Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?
In his book 1984, Winston Smith worked for the Ministry of Truth, constantly updating publications with the 'truth' that is the 'diktat' of the latest dogma.

This current re-writing of history to suite the latest 'diktats' and dogma fits exactly with the tyranny in Orwell's 1984.

If people cannot learn to live with history and learn from it, then tyrannies will be given every opportunity to take away freedom of thought.

And following that, take away all other freedoms.

What were the crews in 617 Squadron (and all of the armed forces at the time) fighting for?

[Bob Viking]

You’re still not convincing me.

Changing a memorial to a dog, on a UK military establishment that had an actually offensive, racist (even several years ago it would have held racist connotations) word written on it is not Orwellian.

Many of the things going on in the world right now can definitely be described in such a manner. I doubt you will ever convince me that changing the gravestone of a dog falls into the same category.

The book shouldn’t be changed, the history books that say the name of GG’s dog shouldn’t be changed, the 1950’s movie shouldn’t be changed (I believe a remake would be correct to come up with a new name) the fact that the code word was the same name shouldn’t be changed but the memorial has been and I think it was the right thing to do.

If the memorial had been on public ground I might have felt differently (although the local council would almost certainly have done the same thing) but the RAF has taken a stand and I think it is the correct one.

I realise I’m barking at the moon and many of you will never change your minds either but it is possible you’re wrong. Just as it possible I am wrong as well.

BV

[MG]

Bob V, I agree with 99% of what you’ve said in your posts. The 1% that I disagree is where you say that a new film could change the dog’s name. That IS changing history. To me, the dog isn’t an integral part of the story and it can just be ignored or, at the very least, its name doesn’t need to be said. I’ve had friends argue that the loss of his pet had an effect on Gibson’s mindset during the operation and I’ll accept that so, maybe, it needs to be featured. But it can be done carefully without raising its name. As for the code word, how important is that to the telling of the rest of the operation? Again, it can be avoided.

[Bob Viking]

That’s fair enough. I get your point about the movie. Glossing over it would probably be the best bet rather than changing it.

If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.

BV

[The Nip]

That’s fair enough. I get your point about the movie. Glossing over it would probably be the best bet rather than changing it.

If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.

BV

Don't you think that with all that is currently happening, that it is exactly what would happen. A very small % of the population knew anything of the grave, even fewer actually cared.
Yet now it is front and centre. Any new movie could have easily have omitted the word without causing this erasing of history.

Remember when ISIS were erasing history at Palmyra? Statues, street names, buildings, books,. What's next?

[The AvgasDinosaur]

https://www.change.org/p/r-a-f-scampton-get-name-back-on-his-memorial?recruiter=103077590&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=sms&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_message&recruited_by_id=17ee6645-6566-4fa7-a99a-2c80eeabcbc3&pt=AVBldGl0aW9uAGiyZgEAAAAAXxLNOGl6WMdiMTQ3MmYyZQ%3D%3D
link here to petition if you feel so inclined I did
David

[MG]

Remember when ISIS were erasing history at Palmyra? Statues, street names, buildings, booksYep, a completely equal comparison.

[Odanrot]

There must be thousands of books on sale worldwide with the word “Nigger” printed In them, some telling the story of slavery. Clearly, we must make It illegal to own one then gather them up and burn them.

The decision to remove and replace the headstone with a false copy is wrong on every level and simply panders to the professionally offended minority of which it seems the RAF’s high-priced help are now members.

[machtuk]

Nigger survived for 15 years in a time when political correctness wasn't even invented, a time where the whole country pulled together to fight a common enemy, he was part of hope, that time where the love of a dog kept these brave men from thinking of places where they would most likely meet their deaths even if briefly yet now his name is being pulled apart killed all over again by an enemy just as destructive, political correctness stupidity!

[MAINJAFAD]

There was a rumour at the time that the Squadron had used their original callsign on a deployment to the USA and not surprizingly had caused quite a rumpus leading it to be changed.

Heard about this in the mid 1980's from somebody I knew at Marham. Reason was Opsec. Also happened to 27 Sqn apparently who used elephant related Call signs.

[Union Jack]

Heard about this in the mid 1980's from somebody I knew at Marham. Reason was Opsec. Also happened to 27 Sqn apparently who used elephant related Call signs.
For trunk calls one presumes....

Jack

[Odanrot]

The Sqn flew a formation into Upper Heyford using Nigger as the callsign - it caused a bit of a fuss. Not the best decision of that week and from then on it changed to Black Dog.

[Bob Viking]

Nobody has suggested burning copies of books with the offensive word in them. History will always bear the dog’s name.

Some of you need to ask yourselves why the name of the dog is so important to you. Are you really a warrior for truth and justice?

If the petition were to succeed (which we all know it won’t) all you will have achieved will be for many, many people to think that you are all (and by association many military veterans) racists.

I don’t fling that word around very often and I am not a fan of erasing history but this is one I just don’t get.

Maybe it is not an issue for some of us to discuss. Maybe those of us who were never called that word just don’t understand how demeaning it is and was.

BV

[Odanrot]

The first action to airbrush the dog’s name from history has just been taken. The Vikings plundered, killed and raped thousands of ancient Britons, yet sensible people are not offended by people of that name.

[just another jocky]

Bob, no-one asks 'you' to get it. It's our Sqn and our history. And yes, you should be careful insinuating that just because someone doesn't like history being cancelled, or wont pander to social media bullies by taking a knee or whatever else (ffs, even tv presenters now feel the need to wear 'Black Lives Matter' badges when presenting and where are their badges highlighting the attempt at genocide of Uighur Muslims?) that they are racist (just so you don't think too badly of me, I think ALL lives matter, and I wont qualify that because of race/colour/religion/culture etc and neither do I feel the need to parade my beliefs so that others think good of me). That sort of thing is happening enough on Twatter and the others and let's face it, none of us on here know anything like enough about other members to make that kind of call.

I'd also ask why some members find the name of the dog so important too? Are you feeling offended on behalf of others?

But then it's not the name of the dog that was important, it's the dog that was important....that's a big distinction in this case. The dog was important, still is to those current and ex-members of the Sqn, and it had a name. Yes, it is very unfortunate that it had a name that carried disrespectful, hateful connotations, but it was of the time as has been explained so eloquently on here by others. But it was his name. Why wasn't the name so offensive to you all that you petitioned last year to have it changed, or argued that it should be removed the year before, or even last week? You all knew the name. You mostly knew there was grave commemorating him too.

Don't pander to the Woke/Cancel bullying culture that seems to have gripped so many recently.

[just another jocky]

SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.

It was still being used in the 90's, and on detachments to the US.

Blackdog came after that.

[DaveUnwin]

Bob V, and with the greatest respect, I assume you are familiar with the expression "the thin end of the wedge"?

[flighthappens]

I love how threads such as this arise such angst on PPRUNE, whereas genuine capability threads and policy decisions arise far less interest.....

It may well be, that the demise of the dog altered Gibson’s mindset. That is about as easy to prove as Cognitive Impairment. The part the dog played is but an anecdote (imagine the significance, or lack of, if it wasn’t knocked over), and at present distracts from the true story of the vision of one man (Wallis), the Leadership of another (Gibson), and the courage and dedication of many (Aircrew and supporting units).

Lastly, it’s pretty easy to see who is able to empathise with some other humans, or put themselves in other shoes.

[navstar1]

Well said and I totally agree

[Asturias56]

Bob V, and with the greatest respect, I assume you are familiar with the expression "the thin end of the wedge"?


Dave - can you please tel us what you mean by this? What terrible future do you for see?? people having to rename their cats perhaps??

[olddog]

Used to be able to get 'Darkie' toothpaste in Thailand, then the name was changed to Darlie.

So why not just change the name of the dog. Apart from its original short name the name
'Nigel' comes to mind.

As a Nigel, I would be honoured!

[just another jocky]

I love how threads such as this arise such angst on PPRUNE, whereas genuine capability threads and policy decisions arise far less interest.....

It may well be, that the demise of the dog altered Gibson’s mindset. That is about as easy to prove as Cognitive Impairment. The part the dog played is but an anecdote (imagine the significance, or lack of, if it wasn’t knocked over), and at present distracts from the true story of the vision of one man (Wallis), the Leadership of another (Gibson), and the courage and dedication of many (Aircrew and supporting units).


As has been said, if it was your Sqn history that was being erased, your opinion would be important.


Lastly, it’s pretty easy to see who is able to empathise with some other humans, or put themselves in other shoes.

The arrogance of that statement is astounding.

[MG]

if it was your Sqn history that was being erased, your opinion would be important Have they banned the whole story of Chastise and the subsequent history of 617? If that’s the case, I take back all I’ve said and I’m triggered.

[Bob Viking]

I understand how Sqn history and loyalty works. I am also an avid reader of all VC exploits and have undying respect for all who have earned it. Indeed as a past member of 6 Sqn and 419 Sqn I know what it is like to serve on a Sqn who can boast a VC among their alumni.

I have total respect for Gibson and fully respect his right to have called his dog whatever he wanted. My opinion of him is not changed by his choice of canine epithets. My opinion of you for standing up for what you believe in is also unchanged (though some people may well form a different opinion).

I just cannot abide the N word and all it stands for in the modern era. I honestly do not think a memorial plaque with that word on it belongs on an RAF station in 2020. It should live in a museum, where it can be viewed in a better context and contribute to a wider discussion.

I realise we will never agree on the matter but, just as I promise not to view you as a racist, please don’t see me as a modern luvvie, snowflake who wants to erase history. Far from it. But I draw the line at the N word in this context.

BV

[BBK]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x512/ddecf879_a575_4a64_bf50_8535ec2429cc_a2ce2bc389201ac157333cc 063550e532cd24e1b.jpeg
If I understand it correctly these are before and after photos of the gravestone. I’ve taken them from earlier posts so I can’t vouch for their authenticity.

[flighthappens]

As has been said, if it was your Sqn history that was being erased, your opinion would be important.



The arrogance of that statement is astounding.

The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.

Have a great day!

[DaveUnwin]

Certainly Asturias. The dog's name has been deemed offensive by some and airbrushed from history. Its name is a fact. Not necessarily hugely relevant or pertinent, but a fact nevertheless. Now, imagine that in five years time someone decides that the raid was a war crime, and henceforth it will be recorded as such. You OK with that? Then Gibson's VC is removed because he committed a war crime. You OK with that? After all, what's worse? Deliberately setting out with the intent to drown hundreds of men, women and children, or a dog's name? Who decides? You? Me? Bob V? Get it now? Some of you will be saying "its not the same" - but it is. It's just a question of degrees. Those who reference 1984 and 'cancel culture' are spot on, IMHO.

[BBK]

What I’m trying to illustrate that the gravestone was not vandalised at all. The new one, assuming that the one shown is that on the right, has the same text as previously. Only the name of the dog has been omitted. Does that qualify as rewriting history? All this outrage over a minor change that in my opinion was quite sensible given the evolving political climate.

Bing and Tashengurt made a very good point that it would be unacceptable for a serving member of the RAF especially from an ethnic minority to be faced with such a racially abusive word. Also, like Bob V I just find it unacceptable and insulting.

One last point I’d like to make is that it’s disingenuous to suggest that this word has only become unacceptable recently in the light of pc or woke culture. I first heard the name of the name of the dog probably in the late seventies from my late father. He was Vulcan ground crew on 230 OCU in the fifties so was well aware of the history of 617 squadron. He was quite clear to me that it was highly insulting to use that word. There you go, a lesson in treating your fellow men and women with a modicum of decency and respect from someone who would now be 86.

BBK

[just another jocky]

The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.

Have a great day!

It was a Sqn Ops c/s, so unless someone decided to eavesdrop, no-one would hear it. But I agree that in hindsight, not the smartest thing to have done.

You too.

[just another jocky]

I understand how Sqn history and loyalty works. I am also an avid reader of all VC exploits and have undying respect for all who have earned it. Indeed as a past member of 6 Sqn and 419 Sqn I know what it is like to serve on a Sqn who can boast a VC among their alumni.

I have total respect for Gibson and fully respect his right to have called his dog whatever he wanted. My opinion of him is not changed by his choice of canine epithets. My opinion of you for standing up for what you believe in is also unchanged (though some people may well form a different opinion).

I just cannot abide the N word and all it stands for in the modern era. I honestly do not think a memorial plaque with that word on it belongs on an RAF station in 2020. It should live in a museum, where it can be viewed in a better context and contribute to a wider discussion.

I realise we will never agree on the matter but, just as I promise not to view you as a racist, please don’t see me as a modern luvvie, snowflake who wants to erase history. Far from it. But I draw the line at the N word in this context.

BV

M8, I do understand your point of view, I think. And do understand that someone might be offended by viewing the word, but then surely that should lead them to learning more about it and why it is still there, and not assuming it is just some racist slur. Perhaps they would learn of the heroic deeds of those men and lead them to learn of the heroic deeds of 125,000 mostly young men (average age 22yo) and of the 55,573 who were killed to give them their freedom.

Or they could assume it's just a racist slur, like a lot on here.

We shouldn't be afraid of the past, nor should we assume offence on behalf of others we don't know.

[fltlt]

The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.

Have a great day!

Yet walk around south LA, Chicago, Detroit, New York, the casual use of the N word surrounds you, used by the younger black folks as a throwaway greeting/salutation/derogatory term as the situation(s) require.
They certainly aren’t offended by it.

[just another jocky]

What I’m trying to illustrate that the gravestone was not vandalised at all. The new one, assuming that the one shown is that on the right, has the same text as previously. Only the name of the dog has been omitted. Does that qualify as rewriting history? All this outrage over a minor change that in my opinion was quite sensible given the evolving political climate.

Bing and Tashengurt made a very good point that it would be unacceptable for a serving member of the RAF especially from an ethnic minority to be faced with such a racially abusive word. Also, like Bob V I just find it unacceptable and insulting.

One last point I’d like to make is that it’s disingenuous to suggest that this word has only become unacceptable recently in the light of pc or woke culture. I first heard the name of the name of the dog probably in the late seventies from my late father. He was Vulcan ground crew on 230 OCU in the fifties so was well aware of the history of 617 squadron. He was quite clear to me that it was highly insulting to use that word. There you go, a lesson in treating your fellow men and women with a modicum of decency and respect from someone who would now be 86.

BBK

M8....a), they messed up the new one by dropping a full stop so it doesn't read correctly now. b) why are we afraid of the past? We should be holding up true examples of racism (and sexism and everything else bad) to show wrong they were. The second we erase, we lose the chance to show how unacceptable these things are today.

Anyone that is a child of the 80's, 70's, 60's and onwards back is aware of how society was then. We all should have known better, but that's easy to say today. Yes, respect to yr Dad, but cultural racism is difficult to erase and takes time.

[Bob Viking]

We know where you’re going with that comment. But the one vital fact you’ve missed is that it would be black people saying it to other black people. That is their prerogative. Though it would be much easier to deter everyone from using it if nobody were to use it.

As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.

Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.

BV

[SOX80]

I think the amount of traffic on this thread kind of makes the point for removing the name. Like it or not the word was offensive in the 19th century, it was offensive in 1940 and it is offensive now. For many the word has come to epitomise the subjugation, abuse and marginalisation of an entire race. Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.

[just another jocky]

....but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.

It is when people keep brining up a very minor part of a much bigger story.

Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it....

Clearly? Who exactly?

And many people may be offended by your implied racism when you have no facts to support it. Woke liberal/left populism and bullying is no substitute for a proper discussion, and neither is attempting to delete the past.

[Islandlad]

I think the amount of traffic on this thread kind of makes the point for removing the name. Like it or not the word was offensive in the 19th century, it was offensive in 1940 and it is offensive now. For many the word has come to epitomise the subjugation, abuse and marginalisation of an entire race. Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.
Agree. 617 is not the only squadron in the RAF. This thread, when read by outsiders, puts quite a spotlight on the institution which clearly does not want to be seen as racist. Removing the plaque and replacing it with a less offensive version does not change the history. Insisting that it is not offensive and should stay does not look good in 2020. We all know the history. If these comments continue it may look easier to disband 617 and go for number in sequence. 617 are way out on their own in the list of active squadrons. The film will never be re-made for one reason. The Squadron could have a short future for that same reason. As I said before - catch up and shut up!

[SOX80]

It is when people keep brining up a very minor part of a much bigger story.



Clearly? Who exactly?

And many people may be offended by your implied racism when you have no facts to support it. Woke liberal/left populism and bullying is no substitute for a proper discussion, and neither is attempting to delete the past.

I don't actually have a problem with offending people, i don't think people should be banned from saying or using words. But as an organisation we should be aware if and when we are offending people and decide if we want to go down that road. In this case I think the RAF has probably made the right decision. Of course woke/liberal populism can go too far (and often does) and it will always come down to a judgement call which not everyone will agree on. An whilst we are having a proper discussion, here is a question, is the RAF institutionally racist? CDS seems to think we have a problem https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/black-lives-matter-british-army-racism-a9561421.html . I have seen some pretty racist stuff during my time in, whilst out east recently and briefing some SF troops a discussion on PID of enemy combatants came up, "don't worry sir, if the're brown knock em down" was the response, tongue in cheek maybe but only a bit. In the crew room the other day "if blacks want to get in to the RAF they should try harder at school and stop stealing stuff". And I have been guilty of plenty of casual racism in the past.

[fltlt]

We know where you’re going with that comment. But the one vital fact you’ve missed is that it would be black people saying it to other black people. That is their prerogative. Though it would be much easier to deter everyone from using it if nobody were to use it.

As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.

Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.

BV

Sorry BV, I wasn’t going anywhere with that, just a statement of fact.
The older generation of African Americans, at least the ones I hear, are somewhat bemused that white folks have taken up the BLM message. Add to that their view is that unless the black community itself gets its act together, no amount of slogans/chants/marches/money/wokeness will make any change.
Thats it, no other agenda, sorry.

Old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

Not to defend any position for/against, however it does seem an awful lot of folks like to spend their time pole vaulting over mouse turds.

Somewhat curious though, why any color person should anyone be denied using any word in the English language, there are many, many more offensive/vile/demeaning words, should they all be assigned an only x, y, z, color can only say which one?
Having done that, would you then recommend working our way through every other language in the world to remove ours and theirs?

Again, pole vaulting over mouse turds.

If that is your choice, fine.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Seems to be getting out of hand (OK, I am of the older generation but I do not condone racism in any form)!. One of my best mates in 1962 at Wyton was a Trinidadian Flt. Lt (AEO), the "insults" flowed both ways and we remained (along with many others) best mates until he died. He must have been one of very few coloured aircrew officers in the RAF in those days but (in my opinion) he was one of the best in all ways and, to my current amusement, a great fan of Gibson and his dog ! Times change, but do not judge anyone by their colour, only by their actions !

Bill

[fltlt]

Seems to be getting out of hand (OK, I am of the older generation but I do not condone racism in any form)!. One of my best mates in 1962 at Wyton was a Trinidadian Flt. Lt (AEO), the "insults" flowed both ways and we remained (along with many others) best mates until he died. He must have been one of very few coloured aircrew officers in the RAF in those days but (in my opinion) he was one of the best in all ways and, to my current amusement, a great fan of Gibson and his dog ! Times change, but do not judge anyone by their colour, only by their actions !

Bill

Indeed, having many friends from around the world, a few of them in countries not renown for humor, the vast majority will give and take, humor helps break down barriers.

Before anyone jumps on the you are a racist, nope, treat each human I meet with respect, everyone deserves at least that.

[ShyTorque]

Rick Stein, the famous TV chef, used to have a dog called Chalky. His name was mentioned many times in the programmes, which are still shown.

Surely, in balance, these references should be bleeped out. Somebody, somewhere, must be offended.

[LOMCEVAK]

I would really like to know the opinions of black people on this matter, that is the people for whom this word would be offensive in current times. I would further sub-divide this into those who are knowledgeable of Operation Chastise and those who are not. Perhaps those who are in touch with black friends could canvass their opinion? Unfortunately, my black friends are all abroad but as soon as I can travel on holiday I will certainly discuss this with them. If they would be offended by the use of the dog's name on the original plaque on the memorial then I most certainly would respect their views and agree that it was right to replace it. However, if they felt that it was not offensive to them then I would consider that it should not have been replaced. I am not a person who is offended on behalf of others but I always respect the views of those who may be offended in situations such as this.

There has been no direct statement as to who made the decision to replace the plaque. I have seen one comment that it was the West Lindsey Council but cannot confirm this. Does anyone on here know?

What has happened to the original plaque? It is a historic article that should be preserved in an appropriate context. My suggestion would be that it should be kept by 617 Squadron with their other memorabilia but I am sure that there are other very suitable places.

[somewhereout]

Some proper dinosaurs on here. Its just a dog, its name is offensive now and was back then to those offended by it. History is just history, stop looking back on it with rose coloured specs. Its nice to look back on and an easy motivational tool but dont pretend the influence of anyone involved in this story changed the world, it was small potatoes. Move on, the vast vast majority of you werent there.

[Blue_Circle]

What has happened to the original plaque? It is a historic article that should be preserved in an appropriate context. My suggestion would be that it should be kept by 617 Squadron with their other memorabilia but I am sure that there are other very suitable places.
It would be best kept safely in the RAF Museum stores along with thousands of other historic artefacts.

[Vortex Hoop]

Agree. 617 is not the only squadron in the RAF. This thread, when read by outsiders, puts quite a spotlight on the institution which clearly does not want to be seen as racist. Removing the plaque and replacing it with a less offensive version does not change the history. Insisting that it is not offensive and should stay does not look good in 2020. We all know the history. If these comments continue it may look easier to disband 617 and go for number in sequence. 617 are way out on their own in the list of active squadrons. The film will never be re-made for one reason. The Squadron could have a short future for that same reason. As I said before - catch up and shut up!
Comments like these on Sqn numbering demonstrate quite clearly that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop labelling those who have served as racist, as it is obvious you have not.

[Tashengurt]

One thing I have observed us that the discussion on this thread is much healthier than the current trend of just labelling every contrary view as an 'ism' or shouting it down without any engagement.

[Nil by mouth]

"A person of Colour", is a ridiculous term!
I am a person of colour, I happen to be a fair skinned easily sunburned pinky colour:

I received a whatsapp today from my sister in law that her son (a serving officer) has just paid £1000 for a black labrador puppy.
The veterinary check has revealed that it has only one testicle!
Should he name it Adolf?

[mopardave]

I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors. Here we go.

What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.

By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.

Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.

And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.

The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.
Very kind of you to allow anyone to argue with you................and then you tell them to "shut up"! Freedom of speech is okay, so long as it's yours, right? Cheers mate............I bet you're a right laugh on a night out!

[fltlt]

Lomcevak, we have some friends over tonight for supper, one of the married couples is African American, late 50’s. The husband is ex US Army.

I asked if they would mind reading through this thread, give an opinion on the subject matter.
Husband had an inkling about what the RAF was, wife no idea.
Before they did, let them browse a condensed version of the dams raid.

The husband appeared to read most of it, the wife just shook her head and disappeared into the kitchen.

When he had finished, and please, nobody get offended at this, his opinion was “So this N...... is supposed to be upset about a black dog in the 1940’s called N....... why? They would be really upset if I told them what we called our pet stray dogs in Desert Storm!”

Now, I understand that is only one persons opinion, but it’s a start. Be interesting to hear what others opinions are.

[Islandlad]

Comments like these on Sqn numbering demonstrate quite clearly that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop labelling those who have served as racist, as it is obvious you have not.
OK - have it your way. If the media turn against the RAF, and they could easily, it may be 617 consigned to history. This is seriously controversial stuff in these times. Petitions to keep an inflammatory word on 'public display' in the middle of the station, where it has to be guarded by a 6ft fence? Seriously?

Using any opportunity to type the word on this thread. Oh it's OK because the RN named a ships cat back in the day. Ha ha - we used the call sign in the 1990s and it didn't go down well.

Of all the film's of heroic raids that really could do with an update and CGI makeover, it's the Dams Raid. And what's the first brick walk they hit? The name of the dog. Today it has racist tones. They are not even under tones. 3 dams 3 code words. Use the other one? No. It's the name of 'the' dog.

As for claiming its a 'war grave', talk about disrespect in a thread about respect of the countries past fallen!

Very kind of you to allow anyone to argue with you................and then you tell them to "shut up"! Freedom of speech is okay, so long as it's yours, right? Cheers mate............I bet you're a right laugh on a night out!
If I was on a night out and this conversation was had in public I would walk away. You are skating on thin ice here. It's not about my opinion. Even I don't care about my opinion. I'm not telling you to 'shut up' to curtail you freedom of speech. Im exercising my freedom of speech to strongly suggest you pick another bit of history to go to the wall over.

Then I read how important the dog is to 617 and I think I could be totally wrong. Are they prepared to risk disbanding the Squadron over this? Maybe.


But then it's not the name of the dog that was important, it's the dog that was important....that's a big distinction in this case. The dog was important, still is to those current and ex-members of the Sqn, and it had a name. Yes, it is very unfortunate that it had a name that carried disrespectful, hateful connotations, but it was of the time as has been explained so eloquently on here by others. But it was his name.
If the media and BLM focus on this ....

Après moi le déluge

Good luck!

[George Glass]

OK - have it your way. If the media turn against the RAF, and they could easily, it may be 617 consigned to history. This is seriously controversial stuff in these times. Petitions to keep an inflammatory word on 'public display' in the middle of the station, where it has to be guarded by a 6ft fence? Seriously?

Using any opportunity to type the word on this thread. Oh it's OK because the RN named a ships cat back in the day. Ha ha - we used the call sign in the 1990s and it didn't go down well.

Of all the film's of heroic raids that really could do with an update and CGI makeover, it's the Dams Raid. And what's the first brick walk they hit? The name of the dog. Today it has racist tones. They are not even under tones. 3 dams 3 code words. Use the other one? No. It's the name of 'the' dog.

As for claiming its a 'war grave', talk about disrespect in a thread about respect of the countries past fallen!


If I was on a night out and this conversation was had in public I would walk away. You are scating on thin ice here. It's not about my opinion. Even I don't care about my opinion. I'm not telling you to 'shut up' to curtail you freedom of speech. Im exercising my freedom of speech to strongly suggest you pick another bit of history to go to the wall over.


There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.

[V-Jet]

There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.

Perfect summation.


Seems Gibson's dog spawned a TV series!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3w9inrE0Pc

[Spartacan]

For the record the word 'niger' is the Latin nominative masculine singular for the colour black. It is pronounced with a long 'i' as in 'neeger'.

Gibson would have learned Latin at school so given that the dog was masculine the literal translation of 'Nigger' in the context he used it would have been 'black dog'.

There is no suggestion that the term was used was used as a derogatory reference to African Americans.

Had the dog had white fur he might have called it 'Albus' - 'white dog.

If it had had brown fir he could have called 'Fulvus' or 'Spadix'.

If it had been auburn or redidish brown he might have called it 'Zingiberi' but that might have raised a few eyebrows in the Mess is it's a neuter noun and could have attracted some banter.

Obviously, in today's terms that could be seen as offensive to red heads and that's really dodgy as they can be really feisty about having their race treated humorously as I know being married to one!

[George Glass]

For the record the word 'niger' is the Latin nominative masculine singular for the colour black. It is pronounced with a long 'i' as in 'neeger'.

Gibson would have learned Latin at school so given that the dog was masculine the literal translation of 'Nigger' in the context he used it would have been 'black dog'.

There is no suggestion that the term was used was used as a derogatory reference to African Americans.

Had the dog had white fur he might have called it 'Albus' - 'white dog.

If it had had brown fir he could have called 'Fulvus' or 'Spadix'.

If it had been auburn or redidish brown he might have called it 'Zingiberi' but that might have raised a few eyebrows in the Mess is it's a neuter noun and could have attracted some banter.

Obviously, in today's terms that could be seen as offensive to red heads and that's really dodgy as they can be really feisty about having their race treated humorously as I know being married to one!


Quite so.
But you have made the mistake of adding context and complexity.
The new Red Guard will have you in a re-education camp for that.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Quote.........The dogs name is irrelevant.

So leave it alone you cowards. As one who served in the RAF at Scampton I'm disgusted. BLM Black Labradors Matter.

[MG]

Yes, context that is just not relevant to the argument. Trying to explain its etymology doesn’t take away the fact that the word is consired offensive. Here’s an idea, instead of just making a simple change to a headstone, let’s give everyone Latin lessons. That’ll solve it.

[George Glass]

Yes, context that is just not relevant to the argument. Trying to explain its etymology doesn’t take away the fact that the word is consired offensive. Here’s an idea, instead of just making a simple change to a headstone, let’s give everyone Latin lessons. That’ll solve it.

But it is relevant. Where does this end ? Do you have a list of monuments, books , literature, art etc. you are going to take personal authority over ?
Isn’t it obvious where this ends ?
Shall we all just break out the hammers and knock the noses of everything we find objectionable ?
We have been here before.
It ends badly.

[brakedwell]

But it is relevant. Where does this end ? Do you have a list of monuments, books , literature, art etc. you are going to take personal authority over ?
Isn’t it obvious where this ends ?
Shall we all just break out the hammers and knock the noses of everything we find objectionable ?
We have been here before.
It ends badly.

Exactly, G Glass. One of the reasons we fought the Nazis in WW2.

[MG]

No, it is not relevant, as the dog isn’t relevant to the telling of the story. It was a pet, it wasn’t anything more. Would we be having this discussion if it had just been cremated or if it had been a tortoise? All of this affection for the past is because we’ve all seen the film and an animal actor did a good job of looking cute.

[SOX80]

There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.

I think (and yes I am a white guy, this is not my fight) that the point of the BLM stuff is that we should look a bit more closely at our history and not judge it purely through the sphere of our own culture. Slavery was not OK in the 19th century, and, particularly in America, the treatment of black people was and is not OK. But I also get the problem with Cancel Culture and Non Platforming of anybody who doesn't agree. I think Obama puts it quite well:

https://youtu.be/qaHLd8de6nM

Do I think the name of a dog on a gravestone is actually going to offend people? Probably not, there is plenty of real persecution going on that is far more worthy of attention. I suppose I don't think it is a massive deal either way, I do not think it is the 'thin end of the wedge' and next we will have remove any reference to the colour black and tear down statues of Churchill and Baden Powell because they once said something racist. Likewise I think a few adjustments here or there like removing the statue of a slave trader or removing a racist word from a gravestone is probably OK. I'm kind of 60/40 on the gravestone, mostly because I think it has become a distraction and fighting to keep it does not put the RAF in a particularly good light. There are some battles against the woke brigade that are worth fighting, i'm not sure this is it.

[George Glass]

Its pretty simple really.
Add a plaque with a disclaimer explaining the context.
Then leave it the f@#k alone.
Obama is spot on.

[Easy Street]

I'm kind of 60/40 on the gravestone, mostly because I think it has become a distraction and fighting to keep it does not put the RAF in a particularly good light. There are some battles against the woke brigade that are worth fighting, i'm not sure this is it.

My bold. I think you are confusing posters on here with the RAF. It could have become a distraction had the RAF not just got on with replacing it; the RAF is not fighting to keep it; there is no battle as far as the RAF is concerned. What private individuals wish to argue is up to them.

[SOX80]

My bold. I think you are confusing posters on here with the RAF. It could have become a distraction had the RAF not just got on with replacing it; the RAF is not fighting to keep it; there is no battle as far as the RAF is concerned. What private individuals wish to argue is up to them.

I agree, RAF plc is not fighting to keep it but there is a petition, and you can see the headlines if someone were to get hold of it "Forces personnel fight to keep racist memorial" or words to that effect.

[LOMCEVAK]

Lomcevak, we have some friends over tonight for supper, one of the married couples is African American, late 50’s. The husband is ex US Army.

I asked if they would mind reading through this thread, give an opinion on the subject matter.
Husband had an inkling about what the RAF was, wife no idea.
Before they did, let them browse a condensed version of the dams raid.

The husband appeared to read most of it, the wife just shook her head and disappeared into the kitchen.

When he had finished, and please, nobody get offended at this, his opinion was “So this N...... is supposed to be upset about a black dog in the 1940’s called N....... why? They would be really upset if I told them what we called our pet stray dogs in Desert Storm!”

Now, I understand that is only one persons opinion, but it’s a start. Be interesting to hear what others opinions are.

fltlt, many thanks for asking the question for me and please pass on my sincere thanks to your friends for taking the time to educate us all!

[MG]

Educate us all? One couple’s view? Really?

[Penny Washers]

[QUOTE=Nil by mouth;10840840]"A person of Colour", is a ridiculous term!

Quite so. And before that, 'coloured' became a non-approved term. However, all that is changed: 'Black' is the word used on all the Black Lives Matter posters and placards, so it must now be perfectly all right after all.

There is a very good item on BBC World News today (look under Africa: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752) which describes the part played by African slave traders in capturing and selling their own countrymen to the white slave traders. They thought it was perfectly usual and reasonable to do so - in fact some thought it was ordained by God.

So stop the pot calling the kettle black, leave Nigger alone, and let the snowflakes gibber on until they find something else to get uptight about.

[Vortex Hoop]

Still a terrible decision by the Staish. I suppose this is what happens when you put Scopies in charge of flying stns! (Master Warning: Banter). I am sure the petition will be ignored, but at least we didn’t go down without a fight against the PC idiots.

[partsvn]

It's been said so many times on various posts " We should learn from history not erase it "

What does puzzle me however regarding the word nigger is that it's ok for a black person to call another black person nigger but not a white person. Now, how black do you need to be to use the word. Could someone with mixed race parents use it.

The original Nigger's memorial stone should be reinstated and the replacement put in a museum to show future generations what a sad place the 2020 World is becoming..

[LOMCEVAK]

Educate us all? One couple’s view? Really?
Yes, it is just one opinion and we will continue to be educated as and when we have further opinions. If you have any black friends, could you please canvass them?

[XV666]

Bob V, and with the greatest respect, I assume you are familiar with the expression "the thin end of the wedge"?

More than one Navy appear to be wallowing in the same woke fashion :rolleyes:

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/07/16/royal-canadian-navy-to-replace-seaman-in-rank-titles-with-gender-neutral-term.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8535613/Sailors-told-stop-using-male-themed-Navy-terms-like-unmanned-man-power.html

[SOX80]

Its pretty simple really.
Add a plaque with a disclaimer explaining the context.
Then leave it the f@#k alone.
Obama is spot on.

In my view this would probably have been the best course of action.

[sharpend]

. As I said before - catch up and shut up!

Islandlad, I don't know your history nor care. So you call me a racist! Well I will not shut up. You wish to deny me free speech, to 'unplatform me'. I suggest that you read the minutes of the recent Oxford Union debate on the subject. The motion to deny free speech was chucked out by a vast majority of young intelligent people. I wonder if you come into that bracket? You mention that it was a racist term in the 1940s; of course, like many WOKE's you appear to be rather uneducated. Read up where the term Nigger came from. As for trying to change history, there are very many things you might start doing; how about changing 'Atila the Hun's' name to 'Atila the Whatever', as you may think that 'Hun' is a racist word. History is the past, we cannot change it. Many BLM supporters demand reparations for what has happened in the past.... OK, so the French should be sued for killing King Harold in 1066. All this is of course compete nonsense. The past is indeed the past and we learn from it. But we cannot change it. Grow up.

[sharpend]

It's been said so many times on various posts " We should learn from history not erase it "

What does puzzle me however regarding the word nigger is that it's ok for a black person to call another black person nigger but not a white person. Now, how black do you need to be to use the word. Could someone with mixed race parents use it.

The original Nigger's memorial stone should be reinstated and the replacement put in a museum to show future generations what a sad place the 2020 World is becoming..

Well said Sir.

[esscee]

Message to these "wokers" of the "anti-social" media they so enjoy. Work out the abbreviation of "Richard cranium".

[ACW418]

Agree with Sharpend.

ACW

[Bob Viking]

So can I just check something?

Everyone over the age of 60 thinks the decision is a bad one and all the young upstarts are wrong because they disagree?

I just need to be sure.

BV

[sharpend]

Incidently, it has been suggested that we live is a strange world... we do. WOKEs wish to deny history and aeroplanes with black crosses or swastikas are banned in Germany. However, those who wish to change history should remember that denying the Holocaust is in itself an offence. You cannot have its both aways.

[alf5071h]

We live in a “post-truth” society in which emotional responses dominate balanced consideration of evidence. Our use of technology has reinforced black or white thinking, all-or-nothing, splitting our world neatly into one category or another; we create, define our individual context.
But thinking, living in an ambiguous world is grey; we abhor uncertainty thus place objects and ideas into neat boxes, which in time become reinforced silos of belief owned by tribes of like thinkers.

A solution, if there is one, requires changing behaviour, perspective, reframing our thinking.

We need to challenge ourselves and society, questioning whether views have meaningful value. Avoid ‘absolute’ words and rethink them as ‘sometimes’ or ‘every now and again’.
Acknowledge and accept that life is filled with uncertainty. We don’t have all the answers all of the time. It’s completely fine to say, ‘I don’t know, I need to think about that more.’

But do we, will we; I fear not.

At best we might only manage our society as it is, each to their own, tribes guarding silos of thought seeking to become the new history.
Except being unable to rewrite factual history, attempting change history represents the failure to learn; which could be history's prime purpose.

"I also have no interest in reconstructing the past as I would like it to have been. I learned from it precisely because it wasn’t what I expected, which also explains why I don’t remember it. Furthermore, you cannot learn from my mistakes, only from your own. I want to encourage, not discourage, your making your own."

Ackoff; https://thesystemsthinker.com/a-lifetime-of-systems-thinking/

[sharpend]

So can I just check something?

Everyone over the age of 60 thinks the decision is a bad one and all the young upstarts are wrong because they disagree?

BV

Bob, there is hope. As I said, the young bright students at Oxford threw out censoring free speech ie 'unplatforming', though I am not sure what they think about this topic. Probably don't care.

[sharpend]

I have not read each and every comment on this topic, but has anyone criticised the Station Commander at Scampton for being bullied into ordering this? I'm sure that in the past, there were many with backbones, such as Douglas Bader, who would have said 'F*ch Off'. Interesting the type of person that is now being appointed at Staich! One chum told me that the present incumbent used to work for him when he was a Fg Off... I'll not repeat what I was told for it is 'hearsay' and anyway people do change. But interestingly, in my day, even the Station Adjutant (later called OCGD Flt) was always a pilot. Same with the Base Commander.

[Vortex Hoop]

So can I just check something?

Everyone over the age of 60 thinks the decision is a bad one and all the young upstarts are wrong because they disagree?

I just need to be sure.

BV
Not at all. I am in my 40s and I think it is insidious historical revisionism.

[Bob Viking]

An alternative viewpoint might be that the Stn Cdr (or whomever is responsible for the new memorial) showed an extraordinary amount of backbone by doing something they believed to be morally correct despite knowing the backlash it would receive from some demographics.

BV

[OJ 72]

All. I’ve sat on the sidelines through this debate and consequently, as I have a lot of ground to cover this tome may come across as slightly rambling…but as in an Eddie Izzard monologue please stick with me and we’ll reach the denouement eventually.

I’m afraid in this present woke, ‘Cancel Culture’ we’re not really ending up in an Orwellian nightmare which, no matter how apposite it is, was contained in a novel. No, we’re getting very close to what happened outside the Staatsoper in Berlin on 10 May 1933…and that didn’t end well!!

My philosophy has always been ‘What is, Is’! Which may or not have come from ‘The Borrowers’ by Mary Norton?!?

We cannot turn back the clock, but we must always learn from the past and ensure that those wrongs are not repeated…but (isn’t there always a but?)…we cannot and must not try to expunge what happened then! As I’ve quoted before in a strangely similar debate about ‘Butch’ Harris…’ The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there’.

As far as I’m aware Gibson did not name his dog deliberately as a racial slur. No, as said hound was a Chocolate Labrador, he named it after a well-known brand of paint manufactured by one of the UK’s leading paint producers. So, who was in the wrong?? Gibson? Or should we now boycott all Old English Sheepdogs because of their link to a racist paint manufacturer?!? These things are not quite as easy as they first appear!

Back in the day, I was 2ic and senior nav in the RAF’s ‘most operational’ support helicopter squadron. For the disbandment of the Squadron and the retiring of the SH version of the ‘Mighty’ Wessex I planned a round NI and GB flypast of all of the bases, stations and locations that were linked with 72 (Basutoland) Squadron and the venerable ‘Wessii’. As you can see our ‘bracketed’ name is Basutoland, as in WWII the people of Basutoland raised funds to support the war effort, part of which went to pay for 25 Spitfires which flew with No 72 Squadron. They had Sesotho names like Makesi, Moshoeshoe, and Thaba Boisu - the latter a name which had also been given to three Sopwith Camels in World War 1. The original goal was to collect £50,000, but in the end The Basutoland War Fund collected more than £120,000. Because of this 72 Squadron took the honorific title ‘Basutoland’

To honour our heritage I sought, and received, approval to use the callsign ‘Basuto’ for the pan-UK flypast. Holy Moly…I now understand that Basutoland was a was a British Crown colony established in 1884 due to the Cape Colony's inability to control the territory’s Commissioners!!

Shock, horror!! Does this make me some form of unrepentant racist as members of ‘Black Lives Matter’ and their alickadoos would have it!! Of course not, I was just honouring our forebearers from 1917 to 2002.

In addition, those of you who know me, are well aware that I am quite fussy about the spelling of my surname. It is an Anglicised version of an original Gaelic-spelled name. One of my ex-Father-in-Law’s old mates used to call me the ‘soup supper’ as during the Irish Potato Famine of the 1840s the Anglican Church of Ireland would provide soup kitchens…but only for those who took the Anglican Communion. Therefore, one of my, thankfully pragmatic, ancestors probably thought. ‘Well it’s the same God so what the heck!’ and, to save his and his family’s lives he converted from Catholicism. And the fact that I am here, boring you witless, is testimony to the fact that I am incredibly grateful. Again, should I feel appalled, change the spelling back and ‘turn’ as the say in NI? No. ‘What is, Is’. It made me and my family what we have been I the last 180 years or so. I can acknowledge what we had before, but I can’t change what happened in the late 1840s.

What these inane ramblings are getting at is that we are all a product of our pasts – good, bad or indifferent. Could we, should we have done things differently? Of course. But we cannot turn the clock back!! If only we could!! But we can learn from what happened in that ‘foreign country’ and make sure that it doesn’t happen again!!!

What is, Is!!

[George Glass]

So can I just check something?

Everyone over the age of 60 thinks the decision is a bad one and all the young upstarts are wrong because they disagree?

I just need to be sure.

BV

Uhuuum, probably yes.
And your point is ?
60 year olds remember the Cold War.
60 year olds had parents who lived through WW2.
And Grandparents whe fought in WW1.
In other words a connection with harsh reality.
Knock yourself out with “woke” drivel.
But you will have to reinvent your connection with Western Civilisation.
Or fail.
China and Russia play a long game.
Putin and Xi Jinping can hardly believe their luck.

[Islandlad]

Islandlad, I don't know your history nor care. So you call me a racist! Well I will not shut up. You wish to deny me free speech, to 'unplatform me'. I suggest that you read the minutes of the recent Oxford Union debate on the subject. The motion to deny free speech was chucked out by a vast majority of young intelligent people. I wonder if you come into that bracket? You mention that it was a racist term in the 1940s; of course, like many WOKE's you appear to be rather uneducated. Read up where the term Nigger came from. As for trying to change history, there are very many things you might start doing; how about changing 'Atila the Hun's' name to 'Atila the Whatever', as you may think that 'Hun' is a racist word. History is the past, we cannot change it. Many BLM supporters demand reparations for what has happened in the past.... OK, so the French should be sued for killing King Harold in 1066. All this is of course compete nonsense. The past is indeed the past and we learn from it. But we cannot change it. Grow up.
Exercise your freedom of speech. Keep typing. Keep 'explaining'. I don't know you. I don't know if you are a racist. It's not for me to judge. 'Deeds not words'. Keep talking. There are clear racist comments on here. Type them at 'your' peril. The law is against you.

I won't 'unplatform' you. I am not attempting to change history. Tomorrow's history is today's present. It is BLM and WOKE. It's not my present. That's a sideline to me. Much as this is. But if 'they' come after the RAF and 617 the outcome may be one ' you' really don't like. Very Senior Officers - the high paid help as someone described them, my just cut 617 loose; as all too difficult and career limiting.

Keep digging that hole. If 'they' come after you, following this lot I will just look over the edge and say "told you so". Should that happen? Absolutely bloody not! But I fear it may do if people don't Grow Up Catch Up and for heavens sake .... Shut up!

Stop conflating arguments to make your point. This is a stand alone argument.

You can shout "fire" in a crowded cinema; it is your right. It's freedom of speech. Is it clever? Based on your argument you would say "yes"? I would say no. It's there to be used wisely.

I did re-read the etymology: nothing new for the uneducated there. The disengenuous type the word for effect. It slides them towards the racist camp. It does not need to be typed.

sharpend you are not MLK. This is not worth marching for. You are not Dietrich Bonhoeffer. This is not the thin end of the wedge.

[Bob Viking]

As I feel sure you haven’t read my previous posts on the subject (does anybody ever) I’ll reiterate them for you.

I am not a fan of cancel culture or ‘wokeness’ and ordinarily I would agree with you about the dangers of erasing history in all its forms.

The issue of the dog’s name is not the thin end of the wedge’ or a slippery slope towards the Fourth Reich.

It is the name of a dog. The name is not a pleasant word and whether it was in 1943 is open to debate. I just do not believe a memorial stone, on an RAF (an employee that wants to be open to all with no fear of discrimination) base with that word on it is appropriate.

Remember, I had absolutely nothing to do with the new memorial. I am merely voicing an opinion that I support the move.

Many of you seem to think that makes me one of the woke generation who thinks we should burn books and destroy statues. I am not, I can assure you.

I could likewise argue that any of you who want to restore the old memorial are racist. I do not believe that to be true.

I fully appreciate Sqn traditions and despite being a mere whippersnapper (aged 43 with 21 years of service and counting) I just think that, on balance, the new memorial is a good thing.

Please vent your anger at the people who want to change all of history before trying to label me. I am able to take things on a case by case basis rather than stoically sticking to a single angle and refusing to listen to anyone who has a different opinion.

BV

[Islandlad]

The Basutoland War Fund. Because of this 72 Squadron took the honorific title ‘Basutoland’ - callsign ‘Basuto’

I think you may be a bit off trackIn the English language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language), the word is an ethnic slur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_slur) typically directed at black people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people), especially African Americans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans).
... and I don't mean Basuto

[George Glass]

As I feel sure you haven’t read my previous posts on the subject (does anybody ever) I’ll reiterate them for you.

I am not a fan of cancel culture or ‘wokeness’ and ordinarily I would agree with you about the dangers of erasing history in all its forms.

The issue of the dog’s name is not the thin end of the wedge’ or a slippery slope towards the Fourth Reich.

It is the name of a dog. The name is not a pleasant word and whether it was in 1943 is open to debate. I just do not believe a memorial stone, on an RAF (an employee that wants to be open to all with no fear of discrimination) base with that word on it is appropriate.

Remember, I had absolutely nothing to do with the new memorial. I am merely voicing an opinion that I support the move.

Many of you seem to think that makes me one of the woke generation who thinks we should burn books and destroy statues. I am not, I can assure you.

I could likewise argue that any of you who want to restore the old memorial are racist. I do not believe that to be true.

I fully appreciate Sqn traditions and despite being a mere whippersnapper (aged 43 with 21 years of service and counting) I just think that, on balance, the new memorial is a good thing.

Please vent your anger at the people who want to change all of history before trying to label me. I am able to take things on a case by case basis rather than stoically sticking to a single angle and refusing to listen to anyone who has a different opinion.

BV

No anger.
Just disappointment.
Your reply is disingenuous.
Why be provocative in singling out over 60’s in your previous post ?
Fact is that history has not been taught in schools over the past 30 years.
Fact is most 30 year olds have not the faintest idea of the context of the issues they are panting about.
Fact is that Western Civilisation is under huge pressure.
From powers who have clear ideas where they are going and how to get there.
And us ?
Self flagellating over a memorial that should be a source of pride.
Brilliant.

[Senior Pilot]

Since this thread has become a Hamsterwheel of regurgitated opinions and rebuttals with nothing new for the past half a dozen pages, time for a break.

Or take it to JetBlast :ok: