UK to Join FVL Programme?

[ORAC]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defence-minister-and-head-of-the-us-army-sign-modernisation-agreement

Defence Minister and Head of the US Army sign Modernisation Agreement

Minister of the Armed Forces James Heappey and US Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy have signed a Memorandum of Agreement on joint modernisation of both the British and US Army.....The initial plan aims to cover complementing capabilities from 2023 to 2027, and will focus on:
.

Networks – the shared development of digital infrastructure to support UK/US operations
Long Range Precision Fires – improving the bi-lateral capability development
Future Vertical Lift – creating closer affiliation in the development of helicopter capability
Soldier and Ground Lethality – building on the existing collaboration to improve the effectiveness of Land forces
Assured Positioning, Navigation and Timing (APNT) – providing greater coherence in the development of Multi-Domain technologies

The signing took place at the Ministry of Defence where the Minister for the Armed Forces and the US Secretary of the Army discussed in detail the plans to work together to modernise programmes and capabilities of shared importance.....

[Evalu8ter]

Makes sense from a capability, if not industrial, perspective. If we wish to stay broadly doctrinally aligned, flying 130kt legacy helicopters in a 250kt+ battlespace may well prove problematic. I’m sure Yeovil will bleat, but the -609 is too small as a viable utility machine and the Airbus RACER may be too civil focussed. The bottom line is that given the extended production run of both FARA and FLRAA their unit and support costs will look very competitive....

[Misformonkey]

Bye, bye LH.

[Not_a_boffin]

Arguably, the more urgent need is for ASW cabs to augment / replace Merlin HM2, which FVL doesn't consider.

[ORAC]

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/fvl.htm

The Future Vertical Lift (FVL) program will shape the United States military’s helicopter fleet of the future. Led by the U.S. Army, FVL will replace aging helicopters across the DoD services through a family of five different categories, or capability sets. The over-arching JFVL efforts span a range of five classes of future aircraft, ranging from light helicopters to medium and heavy-lift variants......

2. JMR-Medium: Utility and attack versions to replace the UH-60 Blackhawk, with introduction planned for 2027-28. The Future Vertical Lift (FVL) Capability Set (CS) 3 air vehicle(s) is intended to be a versatile medium lift air vehicle in the FVL Family of Systems (FoS). The CS 3 air vehicle will conduct Assault, Urban Security, Attack, Maritime Interdiction, Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC), Humanitarian Assistance/Disaster Relief (HA/DR), Tactical Resupply, Direct Action (DA), Non-combatant Evacuation Operation (NEO) and Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR) operations in support of Army and Joint forces.......

The FVL could come in different sizes, depending on the mission it will perform, but things like engine, drive train, and cockpit components would be the same, common between the two, and swappable.........

FVL multi-role capabilities enabled by avionics will support a wide range of joint missions, including aerial reconnaissance, anti submarine warfare, Anti Surface Warfare, special operations, amphibious assault, undersea warfare, surface warfare, air assault, Medical evacuation, Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance, Search and Rescue, Command and Control, Combat Search and Rescue, attack, logistics, homeland security and cargo operations.

Because 75 percent of the aviation fleet is in utility and attack, the focus of the Future Vertical Lift will be to resource that combined variant in the FVL fleet. It may be a medium variant, something that is the size of maybe a Black Hawk or an Apache is today,......

[Not_a_boffin]

Excellent. JAST/JSF for the new millennium. What could possibly go wrong?

[GlobalNav]

The F-111 of FVL?

[ORAC]

The FVL could come in different sizes, depending on the mission it will perform, but things like engine, drive train, and cockpit components would be the same, common between the two, and swappable.........
I’d have the said the opposite and that the above shows the lessons were learnt. The policy is an accordance with the concept of funding the development of systems and then building purpose designed airframes around them.

In the example you give above of the F-111, the F-14 was subsequently designed around the radar, systems and AIM-54 missile designed for the F-111B.

If RR has an engine in the eventual range of components and systems hopefully the UK could build a suitable airframe around the common items listed above.

[SLXOwft]

N_a_B in exploring my concerns about Merlin HM2 and HC4/4A I struggled to see a fit with FVL (which I understand is still US Army/USMC with USN/USAF only a possibility?) for the HC4s which sit, capacity wise, between FVL Medium and Heavy and in the USMC MV-22 slot. Also the RN appears to be out of phase with the USN regarding an ASW platform as the MH-60R doesn't appear to be due for replacement in the RN's timeframe but would be too old to replace Merlin HM2. I suspect there will be pressure to go down an RPAS route. As I said elsewhere, I seems far too close to the OSD (2029) to develop an RN specific platform for ASW/ASaC assuming they would be looking for something Merlin/Sea King sized. I suppose the small ship flights could go Wildcat only and look at a tiltrotor with all remote (recoverable?) sensors for the CVs and other large platforms. What are your thoughts?

As the RAF is planned, AFAIK, to go pure Chinook only FVL-Heavy makes sense to me as its the CH-47 replacement but Boeing apparently sees the timescale as closer to 2060 than the declared 2035.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I think recent commentary about a Chinook replacement is a red herring. Far more likely that we take a capability gap on medium lift until mid-size is selected then buy in to that. It's either that or replace Puma immediately with a UK built replacement and buy FVL mid and large in the 2050/60 time frame.

[SLXOwft]

pba_t - I'm assuming you are still serving so have much better insight.

From publicly available information I assumed that there is no intention to replace Puma - as its extended OSD was originally only to enable transfer to the "four core fleets". Mind you a new Defence Rotary Wing Capability Study is long overdue.

The Defence Equipment Plan 2019 Financial Summary (published 27FEB2020) says:

The Chinook Capability Sustainment Programme, which will provide a UK heavy lift capability replacing the current fleet over the next two decades,as the current fleet becomes obsolescent, sustaining the capability beyond 2050

During 2018/19 we: ... Gained approval for time-critical long-lead items, capability enhancement engineering and military airworthiness certification activities insupport of the acquisition for Chinook Capability Sustainment Programme which is being delivered through a foreign military sales agreement with the US.


I assume HMG wouldn't have signed up to this "Modernisation Agreement" unless it aligns with the way SDSR thinking is going. My understanding is that FLRAA requirement is for 8-12 "passengers" which would be a radical shift from Chinook "over the long term", however the following suggests that is what is under consideration. Presumably it would have to be supplemented by a heavy lift component. I 'm wondering if "cusp of another procurement of CH-47 Chinooks" refers to that the one for which long lead items have already been authorized/ordered or is a further addition.

US Army Secretary Ryan D. McCarthy said in a press briefing the UK was interested in how it could replace the Chinook heavy-left helicopter with the in-development Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft in the long-term.

His comments came as this week the US and UK signed a joint modernisation agreement covering the development of long-range precision fires, networks and Future Vertical Lift capabilities of both countries’ armies.

Speaking during a telephone briefing McCarthy sketched out further details of the collaboration including the UK’s interest in the Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA).

Commenting on the possibility of the UK eventually replacing the Chinook, McCarthy said: “On the lift side, they are right-sizing their portfolio of lift platforms today. So they’re on the cusp of another procurement of CH-47 Chinooks, but they’re also looking at, over the long term, what would ultimately be the replacement platform, potentially a long-range assault aircraft.”

FLRAA is one of a number of Future Vertical Lift efforts underway by the US Army, the goal of the programme being to develop a successor to the UH-60 Blackhawk. Prototype FLRAA candidates include the Sikorsky-Boeing SB-1 Defiant and Bell V-280 Valor.

Commenting on the collaboration agreement, McCarthy said it was ‘military-to-military’ and locked in on a number of development efforts adding that on some fronts industry involvement and buying decisions could come soon.

McCarthy said: “It is military-to-military and what we did was really lock in on a certain set of weapons systems: precision strike missiles, the lift platforms I mentioned, the common operating picture and some on the networks. On the soldier lethality front, the next-generation squad weapon, night-vision goggles. We talked about – to them about the integrated visual augmentation system as well.
Source: Army Technology 16JUL2020

[ORAC]

AW&ST

Rolls-Royce Will supply the engines and IR suppression system for the Bell V-280 tiltrotor proposal to the US Army for the FLRAA program.

[NutLoose]

Look like the Royal Marines have gone all things USA.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2020/june/27/200626-royal-marines-new-uniform

[salad-dodger]

Look like the Royal Marines have gone all things USA.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2020/june/27/200626-royal-marines-new-uniform
what are you on about?

[SLXOwft]

I am not sure how the European NGRC aligns with the UK's "involvement with FVL". Did we on PPRuNe fixate on FVL when the main UK interests are in the other four strands: Networks, Long Range Precision Fires, Soldier and Ground Lethality and Assured Positioning, Navigation and Timing? Questions for me are have the countries learned to align requirements early and stick to them or not learned from previous programmes that they struggle to deliver something that meets the needs of all/any participants?
Announced by NATO on 19 November, the multinational Next Generation Rotorcraft Capability (NGRC) project will involve France, Germany, Greece, Italy, and the United Kingdom, and was officially launched with the defence ministers from all five nations signing a letter of intent (LOI) in October.

“The Next Generation Rotorcraft [Capability] project aims to develop a solution for these upcoming requirements, leveraging a broad range of recent advances in technology, production methods, as well as operational concepts,” NATO said. “A significant number of medium multirole helicopter capabilities currently operated by allies will reach the end of their life-cycle in the 2035 to 2040 period and beyond, with the subsequent need for replacements.”

As noted by NATO, the project is dedicated to the modernisation of existing rotorcraft fleets and is one of the alliance’s High Visibility Projects (HVPs). “Over the coming years, experts from all [five] nations will cover an exhaustive programme of work, starting with defining a robust statement of requirements and a multiphase co-operation plan.”

Source: Janes - Defence News

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/europe-launches-future-medium-lift-helicopter-project

[chopper2004]

Seeming as Defiant X has been unveiled , laughingly if all goes well and Us Army picks it, et voila someday in next decade could see it in service here??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVOzZnjVBww

cheers

[Haraka]

And of course also building up from experience gained since the upcoming 10th anniversary of the debut of the combat proven "Stealth Blackhawk" of Bin Laden fame :)

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/02/14/us-and-uk-sign-cooperation-agreement-for-future-vertical-lift-programs/

US and UK sign cooperation agreement for future vertical lift programs

[chopper2004]

In lieu of the United States Army awarding Bell the FLRAA/FVL

https://www.army.mil/article/262523?fbclid=IwAR0GD-TYOnz8-ohuXFEtV_FG9fTgI58b0KV-L-rzX_uiebOMHxurZ_66VJw.

Safe to say we will be tilting away in the next couple of deacdes

cheers

[Lonewolf_50]

Given that RR is providing the engines for V-280 Valor, does this open a door for the UK to get a few squadrons of them in a decade or so?
(I tried to get a read on IOC for Valor and most generous forecast I heard is late 20's ish ... and that's not written in cement...treat that as rumor/speculation/wind as appropriate)

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/nicholadrummond/status/1600138920561213443?s=61&t=35BuowgQtiPJfCo-CppCRA


Superb thread. Bin NMW. Gap capability. Acquire V-280 when we can afford it. Build it at Yeovil. Platform Range and SF roles described below are compelling..

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1600104241279905792.html

[rattman]

I have been looking at it from an australian POV, big issue he sorta ignore the a whole 3 times the price factor. Estimated price of about 55 million an airframe compared to about 20 million for a Blackhawk, the valor price might come down but not by that much

[Lonewolf_50]

FWIW, the V-22 is similarly quite expensive. There is a small set of potential (wealthy enough) customers for it.
Japan, for the moment, is the sole FMS success.
Israel was interested but decided that it was not quite what they wanted. (I am guessing that price informed quite a bit of that choice not to proceed).
India was interested in purchasing six attack version V-22s for rapid troop insertion in border areas back in 2016.
Indonesia may still be interested. On 6 July 2020, the U.S. State Department announced that they had approved a possible Foreign Military Sale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Military_Sales) to Indonesia of eight Block C MV-22s and related equipment for an estimated cost of $2 billion. The U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of this possible sale (https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/indonesia-mv-22-block-c-osprey-aircraft). Valor may run into a similar obstacle if the price point is too high.

[rattman]

FWIW, the V-22 is similarly quite expensive. There is a small set of potential (wealthy enough) customers for it.
Japan, for the moment, is the sole FMS success.

There was some marine V-22 operating out of RAAF townsville during talisman saber 2022. Apparently lots of bigwigs from the ADF were having a close look at them. But ultimately the price of them was the real killer

[Asturias56]

a coupleof years back there were number of V-22's buzzing about C London - I assumed it was to show them off to a UK as a potential buyer - especially for the Two carriers