Stirling Under Threat

[Herod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-53199977

Hopefully this will be done in a considerate manner. After all, it is possibly a war-grave.

Since there are very few bits of Stirling anywhere, any recovery would soon find a place in a museum very happy to receive it. The RAF Museum please.

[rolling20]

Herod, I thought it was a post about the pound.




Misspelt thread title edited!

SP

[Herod]

My apologies. The only excuse is it's early on Sunday morning. At least I spelt it correctly in the narrative.

[VintageEngineer]

Short Stirling lost on a raid to Berlin: See here. (http://aircrewremembered.com/harris-john.html)

The courage and devotion to duty needed to go to Berlin in a Short Stirling in 1943 are remarkable.

[Herod]

As you say, very brave men, to whom we owe a lot. Hopefully the recovery will be done in a way that allows remains to be recovered and properly honoured.

[rolling20]

My apologies. The only excuse is it's early on Sunday morning. At least I spelt it correctly in the narrative.
No problem Herod, the mods have amended. My own great uncle met his end in a Short Stirling. I am always eager to hear any Stirling news.

[Self loading bear]

Dutch (https://www.omroepflevoland.nl/nieuws/179380/berging-bommenwerper-uitgesteld)

What I read in the Dutch News from 20 March, I understand that underwater recovery has too much risk due to the possible present ammunition.
More news after the summer.

My personal opinion is that in the Netherlands we handle these recoveries with the upmost respect.
But we may have acted earlier.

[Herod]

Agreed about underwater recovery, and lifting it with a crane could set anything off. With a coffer-dam, it can be pumped dry, and examined bit by bit.

Yes, the Dutch seem to do these recoveries very well. Let's hope for a successful outcome.

[GeeRam]

Dutch (https://www.omroepflevoland.nl/nieuws/179380/berging-bommenwerper-uitgesteld)

What I read in the Dutch News from 20 March, I understand that underwater recovery has too much risk due to the possible present ammunition.
More news after the summer.


I assume you mean bombs possibly still on board (if it went down on the way to target) rather than any 303 ammunition, which surely can't be a serious risk factor to any proper recovery?

[Self loading bear]

I guess so

edit
i just realized that the cofferdam piles a hammered in...
but has been done before so those risks can be mitigated

[capngrog]

Are there any volunteer organizations in the U.K. that could provide financial assistance to the Almere City Council so as to ensure the recovery is done in the best manner possible?

Either the news story is incomplete, or there remains much work to be done before a coffer dam could be constructed. For example, the crash site needs to be surveyed and major wreck portions located. Such a survey would also locate any major ordnance (unexploded bombs) so that those items could be dealt with. I would assume (dangerous, I know) that the recovery efforts will be focused on the fuselage section(s), where crew remains may be found. How deep is Lake Markemeer where the wreck is located?

Regards,
Grog

[Self loading bear]

The depth of the lake Markermeer is 4-5m.
However the bottom is quite soft.
So all the wreckage will have sunken into the bottom.
surveys must have been performed up to a reasonable level of detail.
otherwise Defense would not have been able to asses the risks.

A likewise recovery with cofferdam has been performed in 2016 for a Wellington.
Costs ran then already into 1 million euro.
Wellington (https://leemansspeciaalwerken.nl/category/vliegtuigberging-wellington-ijsselmeer/)

[VintageEngineer]

Beware of taking media reports as gospel.

The aircraft is in pieces distributed over a wide area, not unexpected from an aircraft shot down in flames. See eg this specialist report (https://www.ta-survey.nl/page/423/EN/wwii-aircrafts/projects/short-sterling-markermeer). Many parts such as a propeller have been recovered already, with at least one bearing the aircraft’s serial number.

I am sure that the Dutch will take great care to treat any remains with the respect that they deserve. They certainly did so in the recent recovery of Wellington R1322

[NutLoose]

You know there is an ongoing project to rebuild on in the UK the cockpit is coming along nicely, see

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/79068-stirling-project-update

[DaveReidUK]

The aircraft is in pieces distributed over a wide area, not unexpected from an aircraft shot down in flames.

Has it now been confirmed that it was shot down ?

The link in your previous post referred to several possible but unconfirmed scenarios, including being downed by the weather.

[rolling20]

Beware of taking media reports as gospel.

The aircraft is in pieces distributed over a wide area, not unexpected from an aircraft shot down in flames. See eg this specialist report (https://www.ta-survey.nl/page/423/EN/wwii-aircrafts/projects/short-sterling-markermeer). Many parts such as a propeller have been recovered already, with at least one bearing the aircraft’s serial number.

I am sure that the Dutch will take great care to treat any remains with the respect that they deserve. They certainly did so in the recent recovery of Wellington R1322


If it exploded before impact then the wreckage could be expected to be spread over a wide area.
The fact they are concerned there are bombs/ crew onboard would indicate that it possibly came down intact and there was no explosion, but it broke up on impact.
That impact would of course have led to various parts being spread over the lake bed and although a lake, those parts would still be subject to water movement.

[VintageEngineer]

I agree. Reports are light on detail, so I am speculating. The wreckage seems too close to come from an explosion at height and known Stirling controlled ditchings left the aircraft in one piece, suggesting this one hit out of control. This Stirling crash into the se (http://www.flensted.eu.com/194236.shtml)a has images that may be comparable. We will know more when the aircraft is raised.

The Markermeer has been a shallow lake/reservoir without tides since the crash so the pieces are unlikely to have moved significantly since then.

We may not find all the aircrew as some may have parachuted into the surrounding waters, drowned and being lost without trace.

The aircraft was returning so probably didn’t have bombs on board, there remaining a small probability of a hang-up.

Although I have a particular interest in the Short Stirling, my wife’s first husband being the son of an air gunner killed in one fairly close to where this was found, I’ve taken enough of this thread so will sign off now. Thanks for reading.

[Self loading bear]

Surely this aircraft’s remains are subject to the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. Why is it being disturbed?

In the Netherlands we have a similar law.
War graves are in principle untouched.
Local authorities can decide to do a recovery:
- in case of danger (unexploded bombs)
- repurpose of the land
- on request of relatives of deceased.
The last is the case for this Stirling.

In 2019 the Dutch government has reserved 15M euro to reimburse the local authorities for the costs made to recover 50-60 of the sites which most likely will still contain human remains.
Roughly 3-5 sites can be recovered per year.

[Brewster Buffalo]

In 2019 the Dutch government has reserved 15M euro to reimburse the local authorities for the costs made to recover 50-60 of the sites which most likely will still contain human remains.
Roughly 3-5 sites can be recovered per year.
Shouldn't the UK government be contributing to the cost when recovering a RAF crew?

[megan]

In the Netherlands we have a similar law.
War graves are in principle untouched.Similar in Oz, we have a Japanese sub in fairly shallow water that still has the entire crew entombed.

[goofer3]

In the Netherlands we have a similar law.
War graves are in principle untouched..
Battle of Jutland Wrecks;
Illicit Jutland wreck salvage - alleged culprit named (http://archive.divernet.com/home-diving-news/p306032-illicit-jutland-wreck-salvage-alleged-culprit-named.html)

[goofer3]

Just to add the above post is to show that no matter what the official line is there is always someone who will ignore it.

[megan]

The attraction of these salvage attempts of WWII shipping is that the steel was manufactured pre the atomic age and is there for not contaminated with radio activity. Makes it a valuable product for producing geiger counters, medical apparatus: whole body counting and lung counters, scientific equipment: photonics, aeronautical and space sensors
.
https://hackaday.com/2017/03/27/low-background-steel-so-hot-right-now/

[Self loading bear]

Recovery has started today and will last 4 to 5 weeks.
Local television (https://www.omroepflevoland.nl/nieuws/191154/berging-short-stirling-in-markermeer-gestart)

The area seems to be too large to use a cofferdam.
There is a silt layer of 50-80cm above a clay bottom.
The wreck is scattered into pieces of maximal 80cm (3feet) Which are all in the silt.

Source of the delay seems to be that phosphorus bombs could still be present.
To prevent air contact with the phosphor, larger pieces of material will first be checked under water.

Then all material will be sifted till 8mm.

I am sorry to say that this probably implies the recovery is done by grabs, backhoe and dredge pumps.

[Jhieminga]

One of the items that was brought up early in the recovery effort was an engine casing. The numbers on this casing have confirmed the wreck's identity as Short Stirling III BK716.
https://www.omroepflevoland.nl/nieuws/191987/gevonden-motorblok-toont-aan-short-stirling-in-markermeer-is-de-bk716

[Self loading bear]

Human remains have been found at the location.
Identification might take months.
Now dot NL (http://Stoffelijke resten gevonden bij berging oorlogswrak Markermeer | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl)

[Self loading bear]

The recovery of the Stirling has been completed 1 month ago.
Human remains have been found but no confirmation of identification yet.
Meanwhile the Aircraft recovery team has recovered a Messerschmitt in Dalfsen.
That pilot has already been identified.Stirling (https://www.defensie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/10/09/berging-britse-bommenwerper-in-markermeer-afgerond)
Dalfsen (https://www.defensie.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/11/11/stoffelijke-resten-duitse-piloot-geidentificeerd)

A former boy next door of my youth is now captain of the identification team.
In his childhood he was already busy with military history and archeology.
A Most rewarding job to give those nameless soldiers a name and place in history.