easyJet MPL - continue or stop

[ezymplcae]

I've nearly completed ground school at CAE and I'm currently on the MPL programme there. Looking for some genuine advice given the state of the recruitment market at the moment.

I feel like I need to continue and finish my EASA exams as a minimum. The big decision is what to do next:

i) continue with the MPL, we'd finish with an A320 type rating and then likely be placed in a hold pool. The prospects of gaining meaningful employment any time soon look bleak given the redunandancies announced, and the fact that there are going to be c 200 MPL cadets in the hold pool. I'd also imagine that an easyJet pilots made redundant would have preferential terms to be recruited prior to cadets, though any insight on this would be useful!

CAE have said that other airlines might take us on (operators of A320s and we'd have to do an operational conversion course). Can anyone advise if many airlines offer such courses to new pilots or whether this is unusual? And, indeed, is an MPL (trained using another airline's SOPs) more or less attractive than a whitetail ATPL student?

The risk of the MPL licence not being issued is reduced by the fact that another airline will carry out base training, not easyJet (which is interesting). There is a risk though as we'd need to keep current and this could be costly (CAE haven't advised a cost yet).

ii) switch to whitetail ATPL with CAE

iii) cut my losses and stop training, go and find some work for a year or two and then pick things up via the modular route (I've been to uni and had a pretty decent professional job which I could likely fall back on).

I've financed the training through my own savings so I'm very fortunate that I don't have to worry about debt repayments etc. I understand that I would receive most of my fees from CAE, bar the cost of ground school (but tbc).

Please, no need for condescending posts about this being a stupid question on what to do.

It seems as if the MPL is dead in the water, the ATPL at CAE is very expensive and I'd struggle to see how the market would look much better for ATPL cadets in a year. It seems to me that (iii) is the most realistic option given the mass redundancies announced by almost every airline. My heart says just continue with the training and hope for the best, but I just struggle so see this approach as the best course of action.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[parkfell]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

You seem to appreciate the reality of the impact of the tsunami.

One step at a time ~ complete the EASA exams. You will then have 36 months to complete the flying.

The chances of another operator taking you on for MPL will be remote to say the least.
I have made comments elsewhere about smooooth talking snake oil salesmen.

At this moment your option iii) would seem the most sensible, although you will need to review this course of action next year.

No question is ‘stupid’ if it improves your understanding.
Junior birdmen will be suffering from ‘shell shock’ to some extent, and vulnerable to quick fix solutions.
You are quite right to ask, as others will be in the same boat and also in need clear, unambiguous, independent advice.

No doubt others will chip in with their thoughts 😎

[Pawly]

It's tough and I feel bad for anybody who's in the middle of their (MPL) training right now and doesn't know what to do.

Option ii) or iii) seems like the right choice, although, if you say that the ATPL program with the CAE is expensive, I simply wouldn't do it there if there is no benefit except for comfort.

I'd focus on the exams right now because once you've finished those, I think you have a solid base of something, without having wasted too much money. And considering you have a lot of time to do your flight training, you can then still look at the marked and decide what to do. I simply think that doing anything MPL related is the worst possible thing to do right now.

And ATPL-wise it really depends.
I've talked to a couple of people who are pilots or have friends who are pilots, and they all said that finding a job as a ready entry is close to impossible right now. They've seen Emirates A380 captains getting rejected and requirements for assessments are insane as the companies have a massive pool of ready entries to choose from. So unless you have money to "waste" or some sort of job guarantee (which I doubt), I wouldn't just blindly start flight training right now.

I'd probably just finish the exams, then wait for a year to then decide what to do, at least in your situation. Falling back on your job seems like the best option. Not only will you earn a bunch of money that gives you some more security, but you'll also be able to look at the market and have more than enough time (2 years) to complete your flight training. Plus you'll refresh your skills in your old job, which means that if aviation crashes again, companies are more likely to take you back in, compared to others who haven't worked in this field for 10+ years and essentially only have experience in the cockpit.

[Banana Joe]

Complete the exams and switch to modular and manage your timing accordingly.
Don't listen to MPL salesmen.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

ezymplcae,

Firstly I sympathise with your predicament and the situation you find yourself in.

This is a tricky one. Personally, and I could get shot down for saying this, NO ONE what ever they might think, knows what is going to happen in the future. Yes at this time, it looks bleak, potentially a number of very experienced pilots will be unemployed and looking for work etc etc. Throughout my training/career I saw 2 gulf wars, 9/11, the financial crisis and now COVID, but it also bounced back. I guess the question is, how long will that take?

I think one of the advantages you have is, from what you have said, you have no financial pressure. If you had a huge loan to pay off once you had completed your training, then I think it would probably be a no brainier. However, if you have funded it through savings etc, I am tempted to say continue, finish and get your licence issued (consider switching the modular/integrated course). I am not sure I see any value in stopping and 'waiting' for things to get better. As long as you keep current, you will be in a good position and ready to go when the doors opens again for inexperienced pilots. From the time I finished my CPL/IR, it was 2.5 years before I got an airline job. I spent those years as a flight instructor. Looking back now, it was one of the best things I ever did, and now I am using some of those skills as a freelance consultant instructor for various airlines doing MPL/MCC and JOC training work both in the SIM and ground school.

Obviously the decision is yours, but personally I wouldn't throw the towel in just yet.

All the best with what you decide.

[Lew747]

It’s a terrible situation for everybody. Both for employed crew and those currently training. Nobody could foresee this coming.

You seem to have your head pretty screwed on which is good to see. If I was in your shoes option (iii) would be the best option to go for.

Modular training would be half the cost. Give you the opportunity to really fly and have licences to fall back on so you can continue to fly GA, instructing etc. I might be biased on the modular route as that is the route I took to the flight deck and got a job with easyJet. (Currently furloughed!)

[A320LGW]

Taking into account the fact you have already started your exams or are some way into studying for them, my best advice is to finish them. You will gain nothing by walking away at this point and also have nothing to show for the time you have spent in the books, Get your exams done and have ground school ticked off.

(Is it too late to switch to BGS? Try to get out of CAE asap would be my advice. You are not getting value for money at these types of places and I learned that very early on.)

Then I personally would advise you to finish your training, get VFR done which is a heavy bulk of it (spread it out over a while, there's no rush). Then either do the CPL/IR when you finish VFR or put it on hold, go back to work and when you detect the market is picking up you only need about 6 weeks lead time to get it all done and be ready to hand your CV to airlines.

Ultimately I don't believe anybody knows where we're going after all this. However, considering the airlines use competency based interview questions for selection, using the logic that past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior - then we will have a full recovery. 9/11, gulf wars, OPEC crisis, 2008 GFC etc etc ... every single damn one of them was followed by aggressive growth. Regarding COVID, it looks as though we have gotten past the worst (2nd wave dependent), the skies are slowly but surely filling up and the public are booking. Looking further into the future, flight sales for 2021 are very strong. This industry is going nowhere so nor should those who want to be pilots.

[WarrenFlight]

As said by others, nobody knows how soon & by how much the aviation industry will recover, so on that basis, option (iii) would be the most sensible in your position.
I know of someone in the same situation as you and I am appalled by the lack of clarity in the communication from CAE. I’m sure that the majority, if not all of the Generation EasyJet MPL cadets only embarked on the course because of the certainty of a job at the end of their training. Nobody could’ve predicted the pandemic. The ideal scenario would be a fourth option- complete ground school and then suspend training until such time as EasyJet are ready to start the process again and then carry on with the course where you left off. It’s seems that CAE are unable or unwilling to negotiate this so maybe you should try to deal direct with EasyJet.

Whatever happens, don’t give up on your dream and good luck.

[parkfell]

The marketing dept or others are being disingenuous, if indeed they did say, another operator might take us (you) on. Can they name any?
There is a greater chance of Elvis being alive and well on the moon.

It is despicable that this false hope (if true) was ever offered, in a clear and deliberate bid to persuade you to stay with their training established.
So as for their credibility now........

Complete the EASA exams & pause....36 months to complete the flying......

[Alex Whittingham]

I would say complete the exams with CAE then swap to modular aiming for a CPL with an SE IR. This will preserve your atpl passes and licence in the most cost effective way. If/when the market picks up you need to do a ME IR and APS MCC to bring your licence up to the point where you can apply for a job. That exercise will also mean you are current when you apply. The fact that you passed selection for an Easy MPL cannot be taken away from you and will help your CV

[RedDragonFlyer]

On the modular route you have 36 months to get your CPL and IR after completing the ATPL exams. There's no need to rush into things if you want to take a bit of break and see how the market develops after completing the exams.

[flyfan]

Yep, would also go for modular. Get a job, do the flying in the 36 months following your ATPL exams and I personally think that in 3 years, the world will look different again - at least you have the advantage of knowing how the industry changed during that time, something nobody knows at the moment.
And as mentioned before: It's never a dumb or stupid question if your future depends on it.

[WarrenFlight]

As a matter of interest, have any of the cadets spoken directly to EasyJet to hear from the horse’s mouth about their future involvement in the Generation EasyJet scheme? At some point in the future (and none of us can predict when) they will be needing to start recruiting new entrants and in an ideal world, they should acknowledge both the financial & time commitment that anyone currently in the process has already invested and honour the original deal that you signed up for.

Do you know how many cadets are in a similar position on the L3 Generation EasyJet programme?

[PilotLZ]

With this level of uncertainty even in the short-to-medium term, long-term planning is at the very bottom of the waste bin - and that's where it will stay until we have a high level of certainty that we're not heading into another lockdown and that a considerable number of people are willing to travel in the coming months and can afford it. For a new intake into the programme to make any sense, there has to be a long-term projection of demand for the graduates, i.e. the airline has to be quite certain that in 18, 24 or 36 months, whenever the cadets are planned to graduate, they will be required to run the business and hence - hired. And how can this sort of strategic planning work given that at present it's not even known whether the existing jobs will be kept? Massive job losses are still on the cards at EZY - and it doesn't sound like those will be of a short-term nature. And the cadets who have already been trained and are in a holding pool now mostly aren't going anywhere either. So, forget about a new intake for some time. For how long - time will tell.

[wish_i_was_flying]

If I remember correctly you have 24 months to complete all your ATPL exams, once completed you then have 36 months (from completion of the last exam) to complete your flight training so it might be worthwhile completing all but 1 ATPL exam, so, for example, leave VFR Comm's until then 23rd Month that should give you an extra year.

As for MPL, It restricts your options having to wait for an airline position whereas if you did the ATPL you would have the option of doing some instructing, etc to keep current.

[lilpilot]

The MPL concept was a failed idea to begin with, but here you are. Finish your exams, then rethink your options. A SE CPL/IR would be your best bet, flying is more then airlines. You shouldn't waste funds, unless you are guaranteed hours and payment upon completion. If you are sitting on a huge trust fund and the alternative is playing fortnite all day, then by all means continue. Even then, who knows which airlines will survive? There are 20000 hour captains in the "hold pool", this hold pool crap is not even funny. Consider reallocating your funds into different investments and different studies as well.

[macdo]

One thing to keep an eye on is the state of the industry in terms of passenger bookings, both globally and in the local market. Both scheduled and charter airlines are completely uncertain what their market will look like in a years time and are trimming back on airframes to mitigate the risk. If the fear factor sticks, and I am of the opinion that it will until a vaccine is developed, we could see airframe numbers and associated FD jobs, substantially reduced for a number of years. Those currently being laid off will initially be the most attractive to being re-hired, but that pool will become less of a hindrance to the OP as those in the pool lose recency. A year plus with no recency and you are pretty unemployable no matter what your hours are. So, it is possible that at the right time, you, with a freshly minted MPL, might be a more attractive (and cheaper) proposition to an airline. Timing is tricky and there is always an element of luck in getting a job, but I would be inclined to complete the exams, and then delay or drag out the next elements of the training so that you qualify in about 18-24 months time. I'm glad to see you have another line of work and since I know a fair few pilots driving Tesco delivery vans just now, I'd be inclined to cultivate that back up plan just in case. Best of luck.

[parkfell]

........So, it is possible that at the right time, you, with a freshly minted MPL, might be a more attractive (and cheaper) proposition to an airline. Timing is tricky and there is always an element of luck in getting a job, but I would be inclined to complete the exams............

I doubt it very much that when recruiting starts again for junior birdmen it will be MPL licence holders leading from the front.
Those in the pipe line now will probably complete the exams, and take up to 36 months to complete the standard modular route with Regulatory approval.

Within EASA land an airline might well send their MPL students home
( for a year ?) in expectation of a recovery. Reassess next Spring?
The airline will need to agree to recommence training when the confidence is restored.

Just where you are positioned on a course will undoubtedly determine the course of action.
There are some natural break points, and some awful situations to find yourself eg. phase 4 completed apart from the base training, as you need the type rating paperwork completed for MPL issue.

[ezymplcae]

Thanks all for the really helpful responses. I think the plan of getting the exams passed and then going modular seems like the most attractive option.

[macdo]

I largely agree with you. Unfortunately, the OP is committed to the MPL, unless he/she wants to jump in with a lot more speculative investment, which I would find i hard to recommend in present circumstances, especially as he is self funding and gives the impression of not being minted. With so many unknown unknowns kicking the can down the road a bit, with minimum outlay would seem a suitably conservative move. I'm on several private forums where folk who were let go nearly a year ago and have not flown since, are coming up against the lack of recency issue already. Its only going to get worse for these people as they are skint. So, knowing how airline management usually go down the least expensive route I reason that a well timed fresh MPL might just be lucky. Unfortunately, my crystal ball falls off its gimbals after that. ;-)

[Jetstream alpha]

What does your training contract say with regards to employment with easyJet once finished with the course? Do they have a clause to completely drop you?

It is a tough situation to be in but I don't think carrying on with the course is the worst idea. Provided you do finish the MPL with easyJet SOPs etc. and they keep you in a hold pool once finishing your training then chances are you'd be near the front of the queue when recruitment does start up. I would think Ryanair and easyJet would be the first airlines to recover and start recruiting again, by going modular you would have a fair chance at getting Ryanair but you'd be giving up the (not guaranteed but as good as you'll get at the moment) place with easyJet. Although this has been changing recently, easyJet haven't been that keen on taking cadets from schools other than CAE, L3/CTC and FTE. I would think cadets in the easyJet hold pool will still be getting jobs faster than a modular pilot finishing at the same time. You could also go back to working your previous job while waiting for a start date.

By going modular you would save a fair bit of money and it would give you greater flexibility but I would think staying on your course would probably give you a higher chance of getting a job and would get you one faster (provided easyJet don't go bust). Could you discuss with CAE whether you would still be tagged if you went ATPL?

easyJet know that if their MPL cadets were to end up with a 'worthless' license then they'd never be able to run another MPL cadet course and that's something I think they will try hard to avoid.

[pmct]

The risk of the MPL licence not being issued is reduced by the fact that another airline will carry out base training, not easyJet (which is interesting).

Hi OP - this is interesting. Could you clarify - is this the current plan offered by CAE as an option if EasyJet decide not to take their cadets on, i.e. continue your MPL training and they’ll arrange for another airline to carry out base training for the purposes of issuing an MPL licence?

Or do you mean that if another airline should want to take you on, they would carry out the base training?

The former I would be very concerned about. It effectively makes it a “whitetail MPL” course, presumably with some preference for hiring by EasyJet if recruitment picks up, but no guarantees. Of course this is most beneficial for CAE who get to lock in the profit they make from you completing the course. A better option, if you had a strong preference to stay in the MPL route, would be to pause your training once you’ve completed your ATPL exams and return to it should market conditions improve. Is this an option CAE are offering?

[parkfell]

Macdo / Jetstream Alpha

My understanding of the awful predicament MPL trainees find themselves in, is that EZY have “pulled the plug” i.a.w. the contract. Force Majeure.

It is not as if the airline has paused the training with the prospect of resumption when ever.

Without their agreement, it is simply not possible to continue the course, as phase 4, the type rating conducted by the airline or contractor, with base training then conducted by the airline itself.
They are hardly going to reach the point of licence issue and then not continue with the line training.

When EZY recognised the impact of the tsunami, they took the unfortunate but correct decisive action.

A significant number of their pilots will suffer CR if recent reports are correct.
Recency is clearly a critical issue. Some might decide to pay for the first LPC post employment?

Crystal balls will remain opaque until at least 2021. What will improve acuity is a vaccine; also market confidence which will be dependent upon continued employment for the general public.
If CR significantly threatens them, the economic cycle will fall of a cliff.

Market confidence will be the catalyst to an economic upturn.

Boris was hoping for a ‘V” shaped recovery. Probably closer to a “U” shaped one?

[macdo]

Fair enough, I didn't realise that EZ had done that. Unless EZ put up a strong indication that they will attempt to honour the original agreement, then to continue is very speculative. I'm betting on a U shape recovery with a very slow upswing, even allowing for a vaccine people seem to be thinking differently about air travel and many will never come back. That said, the young in particular have short memories and a more open attitude to risk, so 2024 may be a good year to get back into aviation.

[WarrenFlight]

From what I’ve heard, EasyJet have not been in communication with those MPL cadets who had not completed ground school before lockdown. There has also been no communication from CAE about the future relationship, if any, with EasyJet. However CAE have outsourced base training to Volotea in order to obtain the licences, but without the offer of a job.

[ezymplcae]

Hi, another airline will conduct the base training - not easyJet. From CAE comms, this will be a long term arrangement.

easyJet have not been in touch with cadets at all, sadly. Reading between the lines, the term "whitetail" mpl is, I think, accurate.

[Andrew Lavery]

Get PPL done at a flying club and build on your own.
Get ATPL learning done by distance learning, with an ATO for the exams (Austro Control rather than CAA).
Build your own flying hours.
Start with the serious money after for MEIRs and beyond.

Personally, I want to know who regulates some of these cowboy money taking flight

[Banana Joe]

Whitetail MPL? Doesn't it make the whole thing useless?

Go modular.

[parkfell]

Hi, another airline will conduct the base training - not easyJet. From CAE comms, this will be a long term arrangement.

easyJet have not been in touch with cadets at all, sadly. Reading between the lines, the term "whitetail" mpl is, I think, accurate.

”Whitetail MPL” ~ an interesting concept......

One of the fundamental aspects is that your adopt the SOPs of the airline to which you are attached throughout the simulator phases 2 - 4.
To stand any chance for the future, the best you could do is to adopt Airbus standard SOPs assuming you were previously attached to EZY.

Regulatory approval for this novel approach would be wise.

Just how employable you might be against the other route with a CPL/IR issued remains to be seen, as you are limiting yourself to the phase 4 aircraft specific (unless you undertake a further type rating course after licence issue) and I suspect those operators who have experience of the MPL pathway.

Some might say a very ‘courageous’ decision.

[Reverserbucket]

If CAE are contracting Volotea to conduct base training on completion of an Easyjet MPL course, Part-FCL Subpart E, Appendix 5 and specifically the GM detailing the MPL Training Scheme would be rendered invalid - it's not only phases 2 - 4 but the entire course that is subject to the "specific arrangement...between an ATO and an operator" including pre-entry screening and selection, provision of base training and everything in-between. The concept of a "whitetail' MPL does not float from a regulatory perspective.

My advice would always be to stick with anything that provides a secure opportunity to join an airline on successful completion, but in the case of MPL, I'm really not sure that the job is much more than an inference (unless specified otherwise in a contract between the end-operator and the buyer). In principal, MPL is good for the trainee, good for the training provider and ultimately, good for the operator but there is significantly greater risk attached to a course of training so dependant on the end user when the market turns south or is impacted adversely, and there is evidence to support this both from current MPL employers and others (a number of Flybe MPL cadet's have been left stranded with nothing of tangible value following the collapse for example).

Andrew Lavery asked
Personally, I want to know who regulates some of these cowboy money taking flight

In this case, EASA and the oversight body is Trafikstyrelsen - the Danish Transport, Building and Construction Authority.

[skyblue12]

Find out what the time period is in which you can sit all your ATPL exams, someone mentioned above it’s 24 months? Sit all your exams apart from the easiest one, withdraw from the school, you’ll get your money back minus £5k, which is the cost of groundschool anyway, then take a year out completely and reassess. Given 2008 took 2 years to empty the hold pools this will be almost certainly longer.

I’d advise your coursemates to do the same. This is your opportunity to get out reasonably unscathed. Use it wisely.

Good luck.

[RedDragonFlyer]

You have 18 months to complete the ATPL exams from the time you take the first one.
Then you have 36 months to get an IR and CPL issued after you have completed all 14 exams.

I think delaying is a pretty good strategy.
If you haven't taken any of the exams, delay for a few months.
If you've alreadytaken some, and if at all possible, it probably is a good idea to delay doing all the exams if you still have lots of the 18 months left. Even if it's just one exam like VFR Comms, it'll give the economy a longer time to recover. Don't leave anything until month 18 though as you need to give yourself a buffer in case you need to retake anything.

[African_TrouserSnake]

If you've already done some exams I would personally continue with them and only delay your last sitting. Leave 1-2 easy exams (comms I/V or m&b ) such that you can do learn and pass them on short notice.
Don't get into the situation where you don't have enough time to master+pass your last subjects because you've delayed doing sittings or studying them. Once the 18 months have passed all your previous results will be rendered invalid.

If you haven't sat any exams at all, something to consider is that ECQB7.0 is coming soon (deadline april 2021, I believe), which implements some major changes regarding learning objectives and subjects (comms will become 1 subject for instance).
Why do it before ECQB7.0? if you start now you will finish all your sittings under the old learning objectives and ECQB6.0, which will presumably no longer get updated and hence all questions will be available to study, via third party questionbanks such as aviationexam, bgs, atplquestions etc.
Once the new ECQB arrives the third party banks might require a while to get up-to date, as they rely on students' feedbacks... knowing EASA, you will still require questionbanks to pass your ATPLs in the future.

The use of questionbanks usually gets a load of **** from oldtimers, but with the way EASA has currently set up their exams they have become a neccesity to pass some of the subjects. I've literally encountered questions (on my actual exams) about one sentence in my 500 page book.
Don't get me wrong: you should study the subject, however some questions are simply ment for memorization from bank and will have no practical use for your career. e.g. min. regulatory distance between taxiway lights....

[Smoggy88]

I’ve heard reports that both Easy Jet & BA have dropped all MPL & ATPL cadets. Tough times for all.

[KayPam]

First of all, it seems obvious that an MPL is too restricting.
You could very well find an instructing job, or a private jet company, but only with a normal license.

Then, two things to consider :

How much would it cost to finish training, from where you're at ? Forget about what is paid and non refundable, if it's lost it's lost. But if the school does not want to refund you a large sum, but would accept converting it to another form of training, the frozen atpl could be cheaper than polish modular.

Some years from now, when things will pick up (I sure hope they eventually will), will easyjet hire you if you went modular and did not train at the expected place ?

These are the two most important things to consider, amont what I see.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Yes. EZY have dropped all their cadets in training, nothing else they could do really. Same for BA with their low hours guys, even worse though at BA as they don't have the bond repayment clause so only a year of bond repayment given as a gesture of goodwill. Tough times.

[Contact Approach]

Take up a real career and stay clear of this car crash.

[stoneangel]

why some of you did a MPL ?? really...
good luck though :/

[Contact Approach]

It's proved itself for easyJet over the years and it has worked well. These guys have just been very unlucky.

[Foniac]

why some of you did a MPL ?? really...
good luck though :/


what a ridiculous thing to say.

dont worry guys , he’s not a pilot neither.

[ezymplcae]

why some of you did a MPL ?? really...
good luck though :/
As others have articulated, it has worked extremely well in the past. We always knew there was a risk of things not working out but no-one could have predicted a pandemic!

Anyway, I've finished ground school and terminated myself... back to my previous career until this ****show blows over.

Incredibly, I've heard anecdotal evidence that some people are considering continuing with a "whitetail" MPL... lost for words.

[Contact Approach]

Therein lies one of the many problems with our industry. All you need to look at is how the railway industry treats prospective train drivers - no jobs, no training.

[wiggy]

Does the rail industry have the equivalent of ATOs?

[Contact Approach]

They've got well funded and quality training facilities... funded not by the trainees tho...

[CurlyB]

wiggy

All in-house and paid by the company. Got my BEng at my firm completely paid for. Doubt they'd do that now though...

[wiggy]

Contact Approach/Curly B

Thanks..explains a lot....

[Contact Approach]

Wiggy,

Sadly there has been a steady deterioration in T&Cs for future Birdmen going all the way back way beyond when i started out in 2006. Back then I was able to attend a very competitive selection process (3-5% pass rate at the time) and take out an unsecured loan of 50k as a training bond. This bond covered my training costs (inc TR - paid for by the airline) and was then repaid back to me over a period of years when I joined the airline at the end of my training course.

These days, the generation easyJet program has replaced what I did and every year more and more risk/cost is put on prospective cadets. We now find ourselves at the end of the line where it is no longer feasible. Something will have to change going forwards as neither the salary, contracts or T&Cs will merit the initial financial investment. I don't expect it will ever go back to the good ol days, far from it sadly.

From the inside it really feels like this industry is dying. It´s sad, it really is.

[wiggy]

Wiggy,

Sadly there has been a steady deterioration in T&Cs for future Birdmen going all the way back way beyond when i started out in 2006. .

Yep I'm aware - my question about the ATOs upthread was somewhat rhetorical.

If the airlines were still responsible for training their own from ab-intio we would not be where we are now- i.e. the ATOs being stand alone businesses are not going to stop training, they have absolutely no interest in anything other than selling courses...

FWIW I've seen this going on in the civilian world since the late 80's and went through a very very selective system well prior to that when joining the military...yes, I'm that old...and yes, I'm also aware the "past is another country".

[parkfell]

If the beancounters can get away with minimum risk, and transferring it in many cases, to the bank of Mum & Dad, that is exactly what they will do.

When we eventually emerge from this tsunami, it is possible that a significant imbalance between Supply & Demand will occur, to such an extent, that the beancounters will need to rethink their previous strategy.

The tide might eventually turn where financial sponsorship is the only way to entice perspective trainees?

Aer Lingus were the only ‘nice’ employer, fully sponsoring their cadets.
A previous BA scheme repaid the initial training costs once on line over time, with an adjusted salary. Probably close to fiscally neutral to appease the beancounters?

These dark days will pass. Those doing their GCSE this year followed by ‘A’ levels and then higher education may well be ideally placed for the Industry.

[polax52]

ezymplcae

I know that people like me are considered trolls. But when considering a career as a Pilot in the modern Aviation world, young people and their parents need to be very aware of the facts. The truth is that the major FTO's are the most unscrupulous salesmen that exist. They appear very professional as much as maybe you'd expect from a Harley street Doctor when trusting them with your life.

In truth the British Airline industry is already flooded with Pilots, the rest of Europe simply has too many. This is without considering the pandemic.

But the Pandemic is not a surprise situation. It's normal as an event. These events hit the Airline industry every 10 years (+/-). The last event was the financial crisis. The surprise there was that we recovered so quickly (within 5 years), the reason for our recovery was due to high demand for expat Pilots from the middle East and China. That demand will not come again because those countries now train their own citizens, much to the consternation of the expats.

Prior to that it was 9/11, again we only suffered for 2 years because the growth of the European low cost Airlines was exponential at that time, that will not happen again.

When entering a flight school and paying a large sum of money, it needs to be seen as a very high risk investment, therefore you would not put money in that you couldn't afford to lose.

Don't go thinking that there'll be jobs in 18 months time. If BA, Easyjet, Ryanair survive this then they will be highly indebted companies with little ability to be competitive and to grow. As Willie Walsh recently discussed. We also don't know the effect of Brexit on the industry.

[ezymplcae]

Hi, I'm not suggesting you are a troll albeit I would say that your post comes across as slightly condescending.

If you'd read my initial post you'd also know that it wasn't my parents' money I was using but my own, hard-earned cash. You seem to suggest there wasn't a shortage of pilots prior to the pandemic ... what about the IATA projections showing a shortage of pilots pre-Covid? As for a pandemic not being a surprise event... come off of it. I have a finance background - the level of fiscal spending and action taken by central banks to prop up ailing economies is unprecedented. The impact of Covid on financial markets has been far more significant than the 2008 crisis. This is mirrored in the impact on aviation.

I take the point that aviation is cyclical and appreciate your points regarding recruitment not being a realistic prospect for a good while. I would agree with you in that respect.

[polax52]

There has never, ever, in my 40 years of flying been a true shortage of Pilots. There has always been a source of Pilots to Airlines from somewhere. As for future projections, in my view they are a sales gimic to attract the unwary. If you take 3 good years of Pilot demand and growth, then project that growth forward 20 years, you get an exponential curve which is completely unrealistic (it totally disregards the history of regular downturns).

The Aircraft manufacturers themselves have different factions. You've got the salesmen that need to convince people that there'll be a massive shortage of Pilots over the coming years in order to ensure an abundance of Crew to meet their sales requirements. On the other hand you have the Aircraft development team (at Airbus) selling the fact that Aircraft will be semi-Autonomous by the mid 30's. They can't have it both ways but yet they do because the different departments have different goals.

If you've been on an MPL course, in my opinion, stick with it the best you can. There is going to be a long term glut of Pilots. If you've done the MPL then there's a chance of a queue jump.

[stoneangel]

what a ridiculous thing to say.

dont worry guys , he’s not a pilot neither.

I took the modular route, which opens more doors.
don't worry for me indeed, I fly in corporate.
and I really encourage all young pilots to follow modular route during this period (save money and can work beside).

my two cents ;)

[DontBeStupid]

Flying is not what it used to be, its scraping by on a low wage and hard when you have commitments and often being treated like a naughty schoolboy.

Its a very tough job and the shine comes off pretty quick, the older you are the harder it is.

I would not allow any of my children to become a pilot.

Spend your money on becoming a good Lawyer, Dr, Dentist then spend your spare cash in an aircraft share.....

[stoneangel]

in the corporate world it is still fun ! and at least we fly...that's the future of aviation.
flying for an airline sucks lol. Good luck guys.

[VariablePitchP]

DontBeStupid

‘Very tough job’? Picture a 5 hour flight to Larnaca. Autopilot in at 500’, newspaper out at 20,000’. Sit there for four hours reading, snacking, chatting, hanging out in the galley. 100NM until descent have a quick chat, select a brake setting. 20,000’ descent newspaper away, autopilot out at 500’, land.

Solid 10 minutes of actual work has taken place, if that. Compare that to a lawyer making similar money to do 60 hour weeks staring at a laptop screen getting hounded for work, no thanks!

[parkfell]

Another analogy for wannabes to consider of airline work once airborne.

Your mother wants you to sit in front of the washing machine which has been set to program (xx).
You have the book of instructions which details the various timings of the washing cycles for the program.

Your mission, if you choose to accept it Jim, is to watch the machine performance to ensure that “it does what it says on the tin”.

Exciting stuff?
How often has the washing machine broken down whilst operating ?
Once in a blue moon probably?
Get the picture...............?

(the under arm test)

[stoneangel]

exactly, don't be jealouse DBS, this job is so :mad: easy actually , when things go well as 99,99% of the time anyway. (0,01% is the recurrent training haha)
free chat from 10000ft, 20 min of rest during cruise, coffee, eating, coffee, and the nicest thing : you get paid to look outside.
In corporate no stress (no 20min turn around), just wait lol . you can take this time to read, massage, and learn online courses as I do...
It's even easier than being a bus driver! (stressful job in heavy traffic or agressions)

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

'Don't be stupid'? Really? What a load of nonsense.

I tend to agree with VP. I have been flying 25 years and love it as much as I did when I started flying in 1995. If you have the passion, the 'shine' as 'Don't be Stupid' puts it, will never wear off. Ever lugged boxes around a supermarket doing night shifts for £5 per hour, that is hard work.

I agree that the job isn't what is used to be in terms of T's and C's etc, however that is a trend across a lot of industry, not just the airlines.

I would support anyone who wanted to be a pilot, I think its a great job. In all the years I spent instructing and airline flying I didnt ever not want to go, thoroughly enjoyed it and 99% of the time the job is very straight forward.

[Reverserbucket]

If CAE are contracting Volotea to conduct base training on completion of an Easyjet MPL course, Part-FCL Subpart E, Appendix 5 and specifically the GM detailing the MPL Training Scheme would be rendered invalid - it's not only phases 2 - 4 but the entire course that is subject to the "specific arrangement...between an ATO and an operator" including pre-entry screening and selection, provision of base training and everything in-between. The concept of a "whitetail' MPL does not float from a regulatory perspective.


Any update on this?

[jadrolinija]

I totally agree. It's not kind of hard physical work but you are paid for 12-14h duty. During this duty you are responsible not only for 50m> $ aircraft but also for 200 pax behind you+there are many decisions to do except how many kgs of extra fuel to take.

Most of the pilots who say it's easy job are totally out of the loop once flying. I have seen pilots watching movies or playing games on a phone as soon as they reach cruising altitude and totally loosing situation awareness what is going on around them. They are doing it as they think their job is easy so what to stress about, autopilot is flying anyway by itself...

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

jadrolinija,

You comments are ridiculous. Once you become a competent professional in any job, the work does become very straight forward and you are tested when things don't go to plan, but that is the reason you are there, as a trained professional.

​​​​​​​You saying that because someone said the job is straight forward or easy as you put it, doesn't make them out of the loop. You are quite correct, the autopilot does do most of the work, however it takes a degree of skill to be able to use and manipulate the autopilot, and I have seen numerous pilots come unstuck because they are not competent using it, which can become the enemy!

Negan, what are you talking about? If you had any of those things you mentioned as a trained professional you would deal with them, that is why you are tested every 6 months and that is why you are in the seat. And why is keeping fresh and current with your company procedures stressful? That is what you are paid for. If you maintain high professional standards throughout your career it is seldom a problem.

[jadrolinija]

CAT3C AUTOLAND,

Please read my comment again. If you still don't understand it, I will explain it to you.

There is difference between straight forward and "easy job" (as previously mentioned by others).

Of course this is straight forward job, we are flying, doing procedures and using common sense when procedures are not covering scenarios... But for common sense we should have knowledge which requires constant learning. And at the moment you stop learning, you depend on luck and SOP.

And yes, it might be an easy job if you do 10 destinations all the time in LCC, if you have a bit more dynamic environment or flying outside of Europe, I guess you will find it everything except an easy job.

At the end... You have to know how to control yourself and your emotions even if you feel stressed as your emotions affect your collegue next to you who might be less experienced. Calling other people's opinion ridiculous or load of nonsense are not something that we were teached on CRM training. I wonder how would same pilot react if he feels stressed in the flight deck...

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I don't need to read your comments again, and your statements don't make a lot of sense.

You stop learning? Really? I don't think so mate, I have been flying 25 years and I am always learning.

Your thought processes and relying on luck/SOP makes no sense. And I have flown outside Europe many times! I have no idea what you are talking about.