80 years ago today...!

[Vortex Hoop]

The Battle of Britain started with Kanalkampf 80 years ago.

Per ardua!

[jolihokistix]

Thanks for the reminder! :ok:

[Chugalug2]

Turns out we weren't saved from invasion by the Royal Navy after all, but by a 13 year old school girl :-

https://twnews.co.uk/uk-news/london-girl-13-who-helped-win-the-battle-of-britain

Story on the Beeb News 11/07/2020 at 1330, 1730, and 2030 :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kzx7

[Fortissimo]

And a 5-year old Lester May would have been writing to the papers demanding that the RAF be disbanded immediately...

[rolling20]

By rights we should have lost the BoB. I mean where were the diversity targets and the inclusivity? Let's not forget that GLM!

[Lou Scannon]

Was it really a thirteen year old schoolgirl who is to be thanked for the Spitfire having eight Brownings instead of four? I'm afraid a family myth has been given credence by journos who know nothing of the development of aircraft in the thirties.
My bet would be that it was all worked out by a chap called RJ Mitchell and his team to meet the Air Ministry specification for a new eight gun monoplane fighter to compete with the Hurricane.

[Herod]

I can't find a reference, but I once heard that Mitchell said "I designed the Spitfire as the smallest possible aircraft around a Merlin, eight guns and a pilot".

[GeeRam]

And by the start of the Battle of Britain most realised the days of 8 x .303's were already over, and cannon's were the future, but the Hispano Mk.1 was just not suitable for wing mounting in fighters with the 60 rd drum mag feed, and thus the Beaufighter was the only real use of it at the time, as the RO could change the drum mags on the floor mounted cannon's from racking in the fuselage.

It wasn't until Martin Baker created a successful belt fed system for them by early '41 that they worked for wing mounted, single engine, single seat fighter applications.

[ExAscoteer2]

Surely the 60 round drum fed Hispano is what was fitted to the Mk Ib (unsuccessful), Mk 2b (unsuccessful) and Mk Vb (successful)?

[slfie]

Apropos of this, poignant moment on the South Downs today. Looking down at Ditchling as two Spitfires paid tribute at Vera Lynn's funeral, lots of people up there being very quiet.

[MightyGem]

Was it really a thirteen year old schoolgirl who is to be thanked for the Spitfire having eight Brownings instead of four? I'm afraid a family myth has been given credence by journos who know nothing of the development of aircraft in the thirties.
Programme on the BBC News Channel tomorrow at 13:30.

[POBJOY]

By rights we should have lost the BoB. I mean where were the diversity targets and the inclusivity? Let's not forget that GLM!

Everything else being equal and accepting that it was always was going to be a close call (especially after losing so many Hurricanes in France) as with most battles it is about who makes the least mistakes. Dowding and Park certainly won that bit.

[POBJOY]

By rights we should have lost the BoB. I mean where were the diversity targets and the inclusivity? Let's not forget that GLM!

Everything else being equal and accepting that it was always was going to be a close call (especially after losing so many Hurricanes in France) as with most battles it is about who makes the least mistakes. Dowding and Park certainly won that bit.
Hitler really thought we would sue for peace (and we would have done without Churchill)
Churchill had a few blunders in his cupboard,but with the most important decision he got it spot on.
MAY 28th was the all important date for this country because that is when Churchill won over the Cabinet and told H to B.......Off.
Dowding and Park kept their cool, and ably assisted by Sydneys hunchbacked knuckleduster,and Reggies Racer, plus an assortment of international drivers the Luftwaffe got a hiding they never expected. If we had had canons it would have been even better.

[rolling20]

Everything else being equal and accepting that it was always was going to be a close call (especially after losing so many Hurricanes in France) as with most battles it is about who makes the least mistakes. Dowding and Park certainly won that bit.
Hitler really thought we would sue for peace (and we would have done without Churchill)
Churchill had a few blunders in his cupboard,but with the most important decision he got it spot on.
MAY 28th was the all important date for this country because that is when Churchill won over the Cabinet and told H to B.......Off.
Dowding and Park kept their cool, and ably assisted by Sydneys hunchbacked knuckleduster,and Reggies Racer, plus an assortment of international drivers the Luftwaffe got a hiding they never expected. If we had had canons it would have been even better.
19 Squadron with Mk1b had cannon, although not very effective and led to much frustration due to stoppages. 151 at North Weald had one Hurricane cannon equipped, affectionately known as the 'old cow'.

[POBJOY]

19 Squadron with Mk1b had cannon, although not very effective and led to much frustration due to stoppages. 151 at North Weald had one Hurricane cannon equipped, affectionately known as the 'old cow'.

The Germans had hundreds in their machines and they worked. Lots of accounts of German bombers limping back to base full of holes .303 ones. Mind you this may well have had a very negative impact on the morale factor.

[chopper2004]

Hot on the heels of wishing the Blue Angels New Fat Albert would take off from EGSC for it’s flight test (never happened), went to Duxford to see the Aircraft Restoration Company Spitfire PR9 Thankypu NHS Start it’s flypast over NHS Hospitals ..so here are my photos


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/a5c04f3f_206c_4aa7_846c_431a8724c5e1_d895fc64427edf1b68185dc 10024a9fd8eadc730.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/1cf77bcf_c73c_4fa7_9c1f_b4989013d916_859270d4ed67cabdd514efe 785588f4e355b00b4.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/fcb2d319_e755_495e_9587_3d6ed2162c2a_9de241eb895b49aa02f1e78 f0e57643a9cddf1d7.jpeg

[RAFEngO74to09]

1940 Air Ops Bunker documentary by a young German chap - commissioned by the RAF !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yXxc4ApxmQ

[rolling20]

The Germans had hundreds in their machines and they worked. Lots of accounts of German bombers limping back to base full of holes .303 ones. Mind you this may well have had a very negative impact on the morale factor.
I believe the 109E had 2 cannons Intially, then the F had one through the nose. The 110 had 2. I can't find any German aeroplane that had hundreds however.

[VictorGolf]

I caught the programme on Hazel Hill and her "8 gun" mathematics and I thought it was nicely presented by Sophie Rayworth.. She's becoming the BBC's "go-to" presenter for aviation programmes having fronted shows from Duxford Stow Maries and the Mall in the recent past. Oh and "Chopper", I think the blue PR Spitfire is a PR11 not a 9. Just saying.

[ihoharv]

By rights we should have lost the BoB. I mean where were the diversity targets and the inclusivity? Let's not forget that GLM!
It has been previously pointed out that if the RAF was overly concerned about gays in the military in WW2 we'd have lost the BoB...

[Herod]

Having just watched the programme about Hazel Hill, I have to agree with VictorGolf. A very well-presented programme, It was technical and factual enough to be of interest to us aficionados, while being simple and entertaining enough for Joe Public to understand. Full marks. Full marks also to Hazel, one of the unknowns that contributed to the BoB. You learn something every day.

[1771 DELETE]

I know all the credit goes to the Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons and the very brave pilots but we would not have won the air battle without Radar, that was the game changer that allowed assist to be scrambled in a timely fashion and in the correct direction. Proud to have served and flown for 31 years.

[Lookleft]

If the Germans hadn't switched from bombing the airfields to bombing London then radar wasn't going to win the BoB. Radar was part of an air defense system that Dowding had developed over time and that kept the Luftwaffe at bay for a time but it was the inevitable stupidity of Goering that gave the RAF the respite from constant attacks on the airfields.

[Tankertrashnav]

I know all the credit goes to the Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons and the very brave pilots ...

Indeed, and little mention is ever made to the ten Blenheim squadrons which took part in the Battle, with their very brave pilots, navigators (observers) and air gunners. Also the five squadrons which operated the superb Beaufighter, and sundry other types such as the Defiant, Gladiator, Whirwind, Fulmar and Martlet, all of whose aircrew qualified for the "Battle of Britain" clasp. Not to mention the groundcrew of all types whose stalwart efforts kept these aircrew in the air.

[Islandlad]

If the Germans hadn't switched from bombing the airfields to bombing London then radar wasn't going to win the BoB. Radar was part of an air defense system that Dowding had developed over time and that kept the Luftwaffe at bay for a time but it was the inevitable stupidity of Goering that gave the RAF the respite from constant attacks on the airfields.
The tactics of the second conflict reflect the way the RFC/RAF - Offensive - and the Imperial Air Service - Defensive ended WW1. In Spain the Germans replayed 1918 and won. It was not until the bombers went deep into Europe that the Germans used 'air defence'. Even then the tactics were still defensive until late in the war.

[GeeRam]

I believe the 109E had 2 cannons Intially, then the F had one through the nose. The 110 had 2. I can't find any German aeroplane that had hundreds however.

The early E's only had the single MG/FF cannon mounted above the engine firing through the spinner, plus the 2 x MG's above them and the 2 x MG's in the wings, but they had lots of problems with overheating and vibration with the engine mounted cannon, so they came up with a mod in the later E's to replace the 2 x MG in the wing with 2 x MG/FF cannon, but like us these were also 60 rd drum mag fed, so ammo limit for the cannon was an issue, although the 1000 rds of MG ammo for the 2 x MG's in the nose meant that they were often relying on just 2 x MG's and their air gunnery skills to shoot down any aircraft. In fact there's evidence that the Luftwaffe pilots were thus envious of the 8 x MG's of the RAF..!!
Again, there early F-0's were not liked by the Luftwaffe pilots because they again only had the 1 x MG/FF through the spinner and the 2 x MG's in the nose. Again, later F-2's onwards corrected this with the excellent MG151/15 15mm cannon and later MG151/20 cannons.

[TEEEJ]

'The Schoolgirl who Helped Win a War' will be broadcast on the BBC News Channel at 13.30, 17.30 and 20.30 on Saturday and 10.30 and 16.30 on Sunday. It will also be available on BBC iPlayer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-53352233/battle-of-britain-the-schoolgirl-who-helped-design-the-spitfire

[POBJOY]

I believe the 109E had 2 cannons Intially, then the F had one through the nose. The 110 had 2. I can't find any German aeroplane that had hundreds however.
You could try adding them all up, we had a few quite unreliable ones in total which had no impact on the battle. In fact when they tried to fit 4 in a Spitfire later they had issues with getting enough heat to the outside ones, and that is why you see so many Spits with only two. They used the 4 gun version o seas.

[rolling20]

Irony, obviously overrated, or misunderstood?

[POBJOY]

Irony, obviously overrated, or misunderstood?

When i do my BoB talks (down west) i show a comparison image of a 20mm and a .303. In some cases i have a sample to pass around.
I then explain that when a canon shell hits it actually explodes and creates a huge amount of damage even with only one shell. If the impact area is a control surface then that is serious enough,but the with a monocoque structure (Spitfire fuelarge) it can be enough to weaken the structure to the point of failure. The Hurricane was able to absorb this type of impact better because the covering (fabric) was not the basic 'structure' and the fuse was built like the the Forth bridge (it was more prone to fire though). The original spec for our monoplane merlin fighters was for 4 rifle calibre guns,but that was up speced before production and meant the spitfire had to have the two exta ones well outboard. The Hurricane was able to fit four a side in a group and close together which gave a bit more clout. I believe the Spitfire had issues with heating the outer brownings (which they resolved) but as mentioned it was a problem when they tried a four canon fit.
The germans were no mugs when it came to producing a fighting machine, and the 109 was certainly a capable contender despite certain weak points, plus they considered the injection DB engine to have a distinct tactical advange when negative g manouevres were made. They also had the advantage of previous combat use in Spain which meant they were not all learning on the job as most of our guys were. An attacking force has many advantages as they actually decide where and when in advance and the defenders have to be on the alert all the time. Although we had the best air defence system at the time it could not preempt the entire situation and therefore our guys were frequently caught on the climb which caused many of the casualties. Considering Dowding and Park had to use a system designed to intercept bombers from Germany it is quite incredible that they adapted the resources they had to deal with an enemy only minutes away.
After Churchill had convinced the cainet that we should fight on we had the most capable people in the front line to see it through.

[Chugalug2]

Just watched it on iPlayer :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kzx7

As already stated, an excellent programme with enough detail to realise just how critical it was that the Spitfire and Hurricane specs be upped from 4 to 8 guns before production started. How important to this was a 13 year old schoolgirl and her mum's kitchen table rather depends on whether you are a proud descendant or simply a woke BBC presenter forever directing the conversation around to how vital was Hazel Hill's contribution to the BoB's outcome. One of her son's summarised it best by saying that the war was won by the efforts of many (millions) like her. Unknown, uncelebrated, largely unremarkable. We owe them all our present freedoms, which we in turn must also defend.

[boisbrule]

I have understood for many years that the person responsible for persuading the RAF to move to an 8 gun fighter armament was Air Marshal Sir Ralph Sorley, a squadron leader in 1934. The Wikipedia article on Sorley mentions that Captain Hill helped with the calculations. It's nice that a 13 year old girl was involved and is now recognized, but I reckon that the Sorley would have gotten *someone* to do the calculations regardless. I don't much like journalists bending a story to make it more saleable.

[Tankertrashnav]

but I reckon that the Sorley would have gotten *someone* to do the calculations regardless. I don't much like journalists bending a story to make it more saleable.

Indeed, had the work been done by some middle ranking RAF officer, or indeed a civilian in the aviation industry, there would have been no story. To me this is reminiscent of the fact that you will NEVER see a programme about the Air Transport Auxiliary without the emphasis being on female pilots, often to the extent of not mentioning the fact that there were any male pilots in the organisation at all. In fact less than 20 % of the ATA's pilots were women. Undoubtedly they did sterling work, but my point is - so did the men, but you will never hear them mentioned.

[POBJOY]

I have understood for many years that the person responsible for persuading the RAF to move to an 8 gun fighter armament was Air Marshal Sir Ralph Sorley, a squadron leader in 1934. The Wikipedia article on Sorley mentions that Captain Hill helped with the calculations. It's nice that a 13 year old girl was involved and is now recognized, but I reckon that the Sorley would have gotten *someone* to do the calculations regardless. I don't much like journalists bending a story to make it more saleable.

Sorley was certainly involved in conducting firing tests on old airframes to assess actual damage 4 v 8 guns. This must have been quite convincing because both Hawkers and Supermarine had to adapt the wing design and gun heating system to suit and only 8 gun versions went into production. Hawkers had little problem with the thick Hurricane wing and ended up with a concentrated group of 4, but Supermarine had far more engineering to do with their 'racer', not only with the fit, but also heating. I suspect the practical trials were the game changer, and we did not have an 'in house' canon at the time. I suspect the Mig 15 large canon fit was more to do with it being able to clobber B29's rather than dog fight with American fighters.

[L-H]

There must be many here who have family that served during the BoB and hopefully have a pic squirrelled away in a dusty album somewhere. Let’s get them out and on display if you’re happy to. I’ll start with my grandfather, not aircrew but RAFVR in the Admin/Special Duties Branch, serving as the Intelligence Officer on 303 Sqn at RAF Northolt and Leconfield 1940. I’m sure you’ll recognise the others.....

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x630/5ed491c7_ec52_46c6_b29f_72d16ade4af3_b666c6d272e744b41e32f4c 9e6f245c35756138c.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x595/207c29bf_d0ca_40ae_ad2e_d55d42a7407b_9d9490d3d63592f8f1ba830 892b6e7744e904613.jpeg

[NorthernKestrel]

Particularly appropriate that some 80 years on, a Spitfire is still able to raise morale of the country....!

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/signed-spitfire-scrambles-to-lift-nations-spirits/

[DODGYOLDFART]

Sorley was certainly involved in conducting firing tests on old airframes to assess actual damage 4 v 8 guns. This must have been quite convincing because both Hawkers and Supermarine had to adapt the wing design and gun heating system to suit and only 8 gun versions went into production. Hawkers had little problem with the thick Hurricane wing and ended up with a concentrated group of 4, but Supermarine had far more engineering to do with their 'racer', not only with the fit, but also heating. I suspect the practical trials were the game changer, and we did not have an 'in house' canon at the time. I suspect the Mig 15 large canon fit was more to do with it being able to clobber B29's rather than dog fight with American fighters.

The Spitfire Mk Ib in September 1940 at Duxford was equipped with 2 Hispano 20mm cannon and 4 Browning 303 MG's. These aircraft were rushed into service without adequate trials and as a consequence the cannons were very prone to stoppages. This was partially caused by the large spring that drove the feed mechanism not being capable of overcoming more than a couple of "G". This problem was already know about because the Westland Whirlwind also armed with four nose mounted 20mm Hispanos had the same problem. However the Spitfire had its guns mounted in the wing which increased the effect of "G" and made matters worse.

Incidentally had the Whirlwind not had huge problems with the Peregrine engines and the cannon these aircraft could have made a huge difference in the BoB as a bomber destroyer. But then wars are made up of lots of maybes, etc.

Also later in the war it was established that the most effective 20mm round was not HE but Semi Armour Piercing Incendiary (SAPI). As well as its effect on aircraft SAPI was capable of penetrating the roof armour of the Panzer Mk 4 tanks and made a terrible mess of steam engines.

[POBJOY]

There is no doubt that the ability to see the raids building was a complete game changer for us even though we were short of resources to deal with them.
The fact that the Germans did not change tactics to combat this shows just how well our Radar 'capability' was a surprise to them. For the first time the Germans were taking looses that were not expected, and indeed this must have been a morale shock after their relatively easy run through France and before. But in the end the final decisions were with the main game players and how they deployed their assets.
We had two well trained former artillery commanders who knew about battle tactics and then later transferred to the RFC. Thus they had the distinct advantage of experience of the bigger picture and were able to adapt this to the defence requirement of the day with different equipment.
The German counterpart was used to an easy European victory with no experience of the larger battle plan. Dowding and Park used all the available resources that were in being and had to adapt a system that was faced with far less warning than originally designed. They were able to adapt the classic artillery tactics but in a unique mobile way and never lost sight of the picture. Considering the vast aerial armada's they had to contend with they used what limited forces they had to good effect and harassed these formations to the point they lost faith in what their own commander was telling them. To a degree it was a huge bluff but then that's what wars come down to sometimes (making less mistakes than the enemy)
With no sight of destroying the RAF the change to another Blitz campaign was not going to achieve what was needed 'Total Air Supremacy'. Game lost and the unsinkable aircraft carrier survived to come back later and bite them hard. Technology is no use without the commanders ability to utilise it to best effect. We had both.

[GeeRam]

18th Aug 1940 - The Hardest Day

[RAFEngO74to09]

How the hardest day unfolded:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34KxPpoq7iU

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djLDL8jxcME

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://www.forces.net/news/hardest-day-key-24-hours-battle-britain

[finestkind]

With no sight of destroying the RAF the change to another Blitz campaign was not going to achieve what was needed 'Total Air Supremacy'. Game lost and the unsinkable aircraft carrier survived to come back later and bite them hard. Technology is no use without the commanders ability to utilise it to best effect. We had both.

Slightly disagree. I agree with Lookleft's post 23. The RAF was on it's last leg's with possibly a week left before annihilation. The switch to bombing London and not airfields was a mistake on the German's part and a saving for the RAF.

[POBJOY]

[QUOTE=finestkind;10864609]Slightly disagree. I agree with Lookleft's post 23. The RAF was on it's last leg's with possibly a week left before annihilation. The switch to bombing London and not airfields was a mistake on the German's part and a saving for the RAF.[/QUOT

Although 11 Group was 'battered' it was never put out of action, and whilst raids could be intercepted Goering could not claim to have destroyed the RAF. Interception needed both Radar and the O corps and both these facilities were serviceable. The Luftwaffe had taken (by their standards) huge looses by September and these were not sustainable. The Germans big mistake was not understanding how we were able to make interceptions and not dealing with the Radar sites before the Airfields. 11 Group was akin to our front line trenches except it was never 'over run' and behind it 12 Group were far from being decimated. The Luftwaffe could not continue day light raids for very good reason and at that point Goering realised he was not going to destroy our Air force, and the invasion was off. Hitler no doubt considered that continual bombing of civilian targets would possibly bring about us suing for peace as it had done in Europe, but of course Churchill was never going to go down that route. Once we dispersed our ops rooms off airfield it removed a vulnerable part of our system, and putting an airfield out of action is quite difficult. Fast fwd to modern times and especially the middle east where we saw the first thing the IDF did was to take out the Arab radar sites which then gave them complete control of the air battle with a smaller force.

[typerated]

The Luftwaffe was never going to win - Full Stop.
Bombing radar stations or the airfields - could degrade the RAF's response but not beat it.
If the RAF ever was under pressure they could withdraw (unbeaten) to North of the Thames (109 range) and reform.

The Germans could never have sustained a landing on the UK - RN 15 Battleships - Kreigsmarine -0 Battleships.

The few was not the last line of defence but the first.

I think the propaganda of the time has created a myth that does not stand up to the reality.

[GeeRam]

We were lucky - the Luftwaffe was designed to support the Army in the Blitzkrieg....not support an amphibious invasion of the UK......however, that doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.
We were also lucky in that the Germans intelligence wasn't up to scratch, a case in point being the 18th August, where the afternoon attacks that massively damaged Gosport, Ford and Thorney Island airfields were seen as successful, despite their losses as they didn't realise these were FAA airfields not RAF ones.....but the mauling StG.77 suffered in the attacks on Ford and Thorney ended the much vaunted use of the Stuka in the BofB, and they were not used again in a mass attack on the UK mainland.
18th also ended the low level attacks as per that of 9th Staffel on Kenley after the few crews that got back were debriefed and the incredulity of the Germans at the success of the Kenley Parachute and Cable device against the low flying Do.17's.

[DODGYOLDFART]

The Luftwaffe was never going to win - Full Stop.
Bombing radar stations or the airfields - could degrade the RAF's response but not beat it.
If the RAF ever was under pressure they could withdraw (unbeaten) to North of the Thames (109 range) and reform.

The Germans could never have sustained a landing on the UK - RN 15 Battleships - Kreigsmarine -0 Battleships.

The few was not the last line of defence but the first.

I think the propaganda of the time has created a myth that does not stand up to the reality.

There is a further factor that is rarely mentioned and that is the morale of the pilots on both sides.

The British fighter pilots morale was being closely monitored throughout the battle and when a Squadron's morale started to falter it was pulled out of the firing line and sent North for R &R. We were somewhat lucky in having enough reserves to allow that.

Not so with the German bomber crews who were forced to just soldier on regardless of losses and lowering morale throughout the battle. The evidence for this can be seen in some German crews ditching their bomb loads long before they reached their targets and more usually after a first encounter with our fighters. This became increasingly apparent once they turned their attacks towards London after 7th September 1940.