QF 2003 Cadet Pilot Program

[Jimmy Pop]

Details for the 2003 program are up on the website:

2003 Cadet Pilot Program (http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/employment/pilots)

Applications currently being accepted.

[hmm...]

Heard the price for a cadetship is around $110,000 and not the $75 000 listed in the price list!:eek:

HOLY SMOKE!!!

[Transition Layer]

No mention of "industry experience" this time around.

Anyone know if the 2002 Cadets are still going to be subject to "industry experience" and, if so, where they'll be doing it?

Cheers,
TL

[radar o'reilly]

gidday Jimmy, long time no speak.

how's things with the big boys...??

[*Lancer*]

hmm... if you add accomodation and food to the price you'd be looking at something like that (as is the case at BAE Adelaide).

TL, I don't think industry experience went ahead for the 2002 bunch either...

Lancer

[flying_phonebox]

Whats the deal with not being eligible for Cadet Selection if you already hold a CIR? Having applied 2 years ago and being rejected narrowly for the group interview i was told to reapply etc as a commerical cadet and now they are excluding those with advanced qualifications!!!

I understand that they are trying to standardise their cadets' training, but not even giving you a look see it pretty poor, but i guess this is how it will be until, if ever, they are in desperate need for pilots..............

BASTARDS

[hmm...]

hmm... if you add accomodation and food to the price you'd be looking at something like that (as is the case at BAE Adelaide).

*Lancer*

$35 000 for accomodation and food? Where do you stay?

The Hilton? :eek:

[Jimmy Pop]

The industry experience component didn't go ahead for the 2002 cadets.

Radar - G'day, hows it all going mate?

flying-phonebox - I think the problem with holding CIR is that it leaves you no flying to do for the duration of the 6 months course.

hmm - The $35k is undoubtedly so high due to the prestigious Adelaide Northern Suburbs location next to Salisbury!!

:D

[767Junkie]

Mate the reason that you are not able to apply for the Cadet Ship if you have your CIR, is that QANTAS want to be able to train their pilots. Having your CPL is one thing but their is still more training that has to be done.. They constantly assess each cadet so at the end of it they can say Yay or Nay... If you have your CIR then wat training are you going to do??? and how are they going to be able to tell if you are a good pilot or not?? Plus you are pretty much eligable for Direct Entry (as soon as you have 500 hrs in command) The cadetship is their for abinito or cpl students. Not Advanced guys like yourself.

[*Lancer*]

hmm... Don't know if you'd call it the Hitlon ;), but that's about the standard price for the live-in arrangement at Adelaide. It's similar for anyone that chooses to do the flying course there... I'm not saying it's good value of course - but most of the people seem to have a good time!

Regarding the CIR thing: even though you may have a qualification (including theory), you are still required to undertake the lessons and tests involved. If you have a base PPL, you're obviously not going to get in as a level 2 cadet, but will have to re-do all the flying (even S&L)! Practically speaking you might get away with a little less than the whole lot over again, but the intention to 'retrain' is still there... It can be frustrating of course - but thats the way it works! It seems to be a standards and assessment issue. The final marks for theory (either the actual ATPL, or a final set test) are used to determine your ranking at graduation along with your flying results (flying carries more weight). Your ranking then determines your seniority on joining. As such, there's an expectation to attend the theory even if you've already done it, as is that case with the flying itself.

The CIR was permissible until the 2002 intake. I personally know a lot of guys who are now unfortunately ineligible because of the new policy, and it's a bit of a shame. I don't know the absolute reason the policy was changed, but there have been a number of incidences in the past where IR pilots have had difficulty meeting the performance expectations. There have been a few that didn't make it to the job because of this.

Lancer

[Cessna Capt]

does anybody know how many people applied and how many make the final cut and out of them how many get a job in the previous years.

also if you don't get a job with QF what are the opportunites for Cadet pilots to be employed else where

cheers

cessna capt :cool:

[*Lancer*]

Cessna Capt,

The statistics for some of that is on the Qantas website... roughly, under 10% of those who apply make it through the selection. There is no aim to prevent cadets from reaching the job - its based solely on your performance (unless recruiting stops). Generally about 10% have missed out, but it varies from year to year.

Prospects to be employed elsewhere are the same as everyone else in GA looking for a job!

Lancer

[hmm...]

I like the wording:

Qantas making an offer of employment to you; Qantas advising that you are no longer required as a Cadet; or Some other activity or requirement

In other words, pay $110,000 and we MIGHT give you a job! :D :D :D

Got to love QF! ;)

[elad]

Does anybody know if you hold a CIR but it has lapsed does that allow a look in at the cadet program?:D:confused:

[tealady]

I was under the impression that QF receives not one single cent of the $75,000 plus that is charged to go through the cadet program - anyone verify this?

[Keg]

hmm...from my understanding, all cadets who have been offered who have successfully completed the course have been offered jobs and if told to 'go and get some experience' for whatever reason, will ultimately be offered a job.

I think it's a legal thing that you can't guarantee someone a job and then tell them to pay for their training. I don't think it is QFs intent to string anybody along!

[SuperSonicCruizer]

Yeah I think Qantas has the intent to hire every cadet, but they have also given themselves a safety blanket just incase a crap cadet somehow got through their application process (no process is perfect).

Also if you aren't guarenteed a job, then you would work harder then if you knew you were assured a job (competition).

That figure of $75K is a guideline, as ideally a perfect cadet will do X amount of flying hours multiplied by hire rate comes to $75K.
However if you are struggling in certain parts you will have to redo certain lessons. This can add that extra $30K - $40K depending on the ability of the cadet.

[hmm...]

I was under the impression that QF receives not one single cent of the $75,000 plus that is charged to go through the cadet program

Your joking right? :eek:

all cadets who have been offered who have successfully completed the course have been offered jobs and if told to 'go and get some experience' for whatever reason, will ultimately be offered a job.

But in what capacity? :confused:

That figure of $75K is a guideline, as ideally a perfect cadet will do X amount of flying hours multiplied by hire rate comes to $75K.

It's always based on the perfect student! I see it at every flying school!

"Your the best pilot, but it's going to take an extra 20 hours dual before we can sign you off" :p

The cadet program is a joke! It's for people that have more money then sense and see it as an easy way to get work in an airline.

$75 000 - $110 000? I would want a job after that! :D :D :D

[downwind]

Guys,

I actually know of one person who was not taken on by QF initially after the cadetship, then they flew in GA for a while and got a job with them after, it is possible!:)

[HPSOV]

You are correct in saying that QF dont recieve a cent from the cost of the cadetship.
Infact it costs them in terms of administration, uniforms etc.

It is Qantas's intent to employ everyone who is selected for the cadetship. The only person who has control over employment is the student themselves, if you're mature, do they work and put in the effort then there will be a job waiting for you at QF (dependant on the fact that QF are recruiting at the time).

Goodluck to all applicants (I believe they're expecting over 1000 this year, for around 30 places).
And if anyone wants any info feel free to e-mail.

(PS-Been ages since I've made an appearance on Pprune, good to be back! hehe)

[*Lancer*]

hmm...

No joke. The payment goes directly to the flying school, and is based solely on the flying and theory costs. A few years ago you could expect to pay 65k for a level 1, and 28k for a level 2.

Considering that if you put in the hard yards you get a job at the end - its quite a good investment!

More money then sense? Most of the cadets I know are paying the whole lot off! Many of the level 2s pay for it themselves after saving in a previous career.

HPSOV - good to see you back! Not working you hard enough eh? :D

Lancer

[hmm...]

Considering that if you put in the hard yards you get a job at the end - its quite a good investment!

To me, a good investment is putting my $75 000 into property and watching it grow!

Not throwing it into a "scam" and hoping for the best!

I am sure there are a few people paying their way through the "cadetship" but judging by the amount of 18 year olds that have $75 000, the chances of their parents paying are going to high.

If you have got the money, hey why not!

Remember the aviation industry is going to rise 4% every year until 2099....................................... :rolleyes:

You are correct in saying that QF don’t receive a cent from the cost of the cadetship.

You can't be serious? Not one cent? :eek:

What about the schools begging QF to pick them to be the training provider? Got to be some $$$ in that! ;)

Last time I checked it didn't cost at least $75 000 to get:

- CPL
- M/E CIR
- ATPL

oh that's right! It's done by QF, I mean the accredited flying schools! :D :D :D

[HPSOV]

"hmm..." If you dont like the idea of a cadetship then dont do one mate.
I invested my $75000 (infact it was $90000 when I did it, but that was the advertised price at the time). I've finished paying the money back (yes I borrowed it from my parents, why would I want to give the interest to a bank?).
My $90000 "investment" is now paying a very healthy return. I doubt your investment property would "grow" this much.

And I'm sure the kick-backs Qantas get are just great, all those BAE Systems pens, and free accomodation in the Hyatt on Parafield.

Maybe you should contact BAE or GFS directly and ask them how much their course costs? I think you'll find its exactly what QF is charging.

[hmm...]

HPSOV thanks for the reply.It seems quite clear that you were happy with the end result.

But I am interested to know:

- What was the breakdown in costs that the accredited flying school gave you?

- Was it value for money? (Apart from being offered a job with QF)

For a person interested in becoming a pilot and doesn't have a huge wad of cash, what are their options?

1) Take out a huge loan and become a cadet
2) Work their way up through the ranks as most pilots do?

It is a noted fact that some of these cadets have not even been in a small aircraft before starting the QF cadetship process! :eek:

Just a thought.....

[B767MAD]

HPSOV working hard?! When did this ever happen for HPSOV!!!!

:D

[ugly]

Yeah I think Qantas has the intent to hire every cadet, but they have also given themselves a safety blanket just incase a crap cadet somehow got through their application process (no process is perfect).
I believe they had the same deal with maintenance apprentices a few years ago - no guarantee of a job at the end of their training... what happened there?

Back in the 80s QANTAS offered cadetships where they paid the training and you had an obligation of a return of service and repay this debt from your salary. There was a minimum age (20 y.o) - I was 19. I asked to be considered but was told "Come back next year - we'll have the same offer then". That was the last year of sponsored cadetships. :(

I went on to get my PPL however all the doom and gloom stories made me decide to pursue a career in IT and keep the flying as a hobby. I haven't flown for a few years (usual story - marriage, mortgage, family etc) although I should be in a position to start again this year. After hearing that the maximum age for QANTAS pilots (direct entry and cadets) is gone, I might give it a go again. Or, I might get an instructor rating and instruct part time...

[sausageman]

Hmm,

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Was it value for money? (Apart from being offered a job
with QF)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Being offered a job with QF?..... How much more value for money can you get?????

Do the math!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-To me, a good investment is putting my $75 000 into property and watching it grow!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your $75,000 won't return you $100 grand a year.

The percentage of students, who are successful in being selected for the cadet program but not employed by Qf, is small enough for the program not to be considered a scam I think.

Especially when you consider 60% of small business fold within the first 5 years. (australian tax office stats). So much for their $75,000. (or more). Nothing's set in concrete. Most things in life are a gamble of some kind.

Being put on by Qf after being picked for the cadet program seems like a bloody good bet actually.

cheers

[KAOS]

Keg, HPSOV & 767 Junkie.

Please check your private messages.

Cheers,
K A O S:)

[hmm...]

Mr Sausageman:

You make some valid points PROVIDING you pass the cadetship!

The percentage of students, who are successful in being selected for the cadet program but not employed by QF, is small enough for the program not to be considered a scam I think.

This might be but what about that small percentage that do get forgotten?

Especially when you consider 60% of small business fold within the first 5 years. (Australian tax office stats). So much for their $75,000. (or more).

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Being put on by QF after being picked for the cadet program seems like a bloody good bet actually.

One you have already taken? :eek:

[thearrow]

I for one am very curious about the fact that there is no maximum age limit. The feelers I have sent out indicate that if you're over 30 you don't really have a snowballs chance and that the no-age limit is so that QF can't get taken to court (sigh, lawyers..)

Otherwise I'd feel pretty well qualified.

[*Lancer*]

thearrow,

I know of at least 2 successful cadets over 30 have gone through in the last 3 years... Not sure how this compared to the age differences of those who applied - but wouldn't rule out your chances! :D

Lancer

[dcb]

Did anyone notice the change that QANTAS are planning on making to the cadet program requirements for physics??

Unfortunately they are not dropping the requirement. They have just altered it to exclude bridging courses from being acceptable for entry into the cadet program if you did not do year 12 physics. Degree level physics will be ok still.

This requirement does come into affect anyone until the 2005 intake (if the program is still running).

Bridging course physics will still acceptable for Direct Entry.

Just a friendly warning. :)

dcb

[HPSOV]

G'Day again everyone!
Sorry for the delayed response, but as hard as it may be for some people to believe I have been busy at work.

Firstly I've had a few people e-mail me asking for info regarding testing/interviews. I will post a link here for all to read that will answer all the questions. I'll thank Pprune Towers and Engage Left Autopilot on everyones behalf for their efforts in compiling this information. Remember it may not all be relevant to cadetship or direct entry, and may not be entirely up to date.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20771&highlight=Qantas+Info
I hope the link works!
Make sure you have a few hours spare to read it all!


To answer your specfic questions "hmm"

"- What was the breakdown in costs that the accredited flying school gave you?"

I really cant remember and I dont think this would be an appropriate place to post them anyway. If there is some implication in the question that some of the cost may not have been accounted for then I can assure you this was not the case.

"- Was it value for money? (Apart from being offered a job with QF)"

You can buy a coffee at Macca's for one dollar, or go to a cafe and pay six fifty. The end result? a coffee.
The same is very true of flying training.
You can pay nearly 6 figures at certain flying schools, or less than half that at others, and walk away with exactly the same licences. Does that necessarily make the more expensive option a rip-off, or bad value for money?
At the more expensive school you are paying for first class facilities. Modern, well equipped classrooms, full-time dedicated ground school instructors with real life experience in the subject they are teaching. A well structured syllabus that isn't based around Trevor Thom etc.
Modern, well maintained, well equipped aircraft. Full time engineering staff. The ability to find something such as a nick in the prop, a missing screw, a balding tyre, anything minor, and have it fixed then and there, no questions asked by anyone. The mentality that an aircraft shouldn't be run so it is just legal to fly, but one where an aircraft should be 100% all the time.
No grade 3 instructors. A formal standards system that ensures quality instruction all the time.
I could probably go on.....
But the simple answer to your question is yes, it is value for money in terms of the training. Some people may asses value for money in terms of job opportunities on completion of training, I'm in no position to make that judgement if we're disregarding Qantas for the time.

"-For a person interested in becoming a pilot and doesn't have a huge wad of cash, what are their options?

1) Take out a huge loan and become a cadet
2) Work their way up through the ranks as most pilots do?"

On option one.... Yes, why not?
People borrow money to buy a business, to do a uni course, to learn a trade. There as just as many risks associated with that "investment". If you are on a cadet course then whether or not you gain employment within Qantas is largely up to you. Show that you're mature, enthusiastic, commited and you'll be fine. However if you "enjoy" yourself too much you may falter. You will have to make sacrifices in order to achieve your best on the course, but the rewards of 12 months hard work are well worth it.
Option two.... Yes, why not?
Qantas has been hiring 100-200 pilots a year for the past 3 or 4 years, and that rate is not forecast to decrease in the foreseeable future (1-2 years). Only around 25% (approx.) of PUIT's are taken from cadet ranks. The rest are a mix of GA, Regional, AirForce, Airline etc. Missing out on, or being unable to apply for a cadetship for any reason does not preclude you from employment within Qantas.

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself that given the opportunity of doing a cadetship, would you turn it down?

To all those applying, good luck!
Once again, feel free to ask any specific questions. But I think most of what can be said has been.

HP.

[thearrow]

Good luck to all the other boys & girls applying. I put my entry in early (although not without a lot of preparation and some glowing references) and as a result got my rejection notice back early :( All I can think of is that the competition must be tough.

I have to say it is good of QF to make a definitive call early on so you don't sweat for weeks wondering what's going on.

[kreugers]

Arrow,

Sorry to hear about your outcome.

Did you get a shot at the skills/psychometric testing or was a decision made purely on the basis of your written application ??

[Keg]

Arrow, normally, QF are prepared to put anyone who meets 'minimum' standard through the system. I would think that a fast knock back like that would indicate that you may have not met the criteria in one or more regards. Have a look back throough the application form and see if you can spot it. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk about it a bit more.

[kreugers]

Keg,

That's always been my understanding, however the latest briefing sheet indicates that meeting minimum requirements does not guarantee progression to 'phase 2'. Tough call but I suppose as applicant numbers grow there is a need to apply more rigour early on.