End of year Restructure

[Glor]

There are several potential restructuring strategies and tricks to cut costs further to save the airline even after the gov bailout...

1) All people change to newer COS (E.g. 99 -> 08, 08->18, 18->20)
2) New COS 20 with lower base and hourly rate, maintain target hours (monthly/yearly) [Almost to the max anyway, just to minimise productivity pay]
3) Suspend pilot recruitment for SO or cadet (FO recruitment may continue due to resignation/retirement)
4) Possible redundancies if merge with UO (Certain demotions for each rank, may temporarily impose no-pay leave for new join SO [period: 2 months or more], last step: Last-in-first-out)
5) Delay contract signing for new joiner
6) Some training captains will drop to line captain UFN
7) Downsizing KA's route and fleet

[Brown Nose]

Ahhh, you make it so complicated! Why not make it more simple and all pilots just work for nothing?

.......F&@king idiot

[MENELAUS]

Ahhh, you make it so complicated! Why not make it more simple and all pilots just work for nothing?

.......F&@king idiot

Indeed. Halfw@t.

[AllWobbly]

Indeed. Halfw@t.

if you don’t agree at least debate him but just being insulting doesn’t strengthen your argument.
I can easily see the company trying to impose a new contract and trimming down of KA.
Those expectations are being managed already in the red corner by judicious leaks.
Our own senior management are equally “pessimistic” and would be delighted to attempt the same.

[doolay]

Exactly. Notice it's the OP's first post. Expectation Management leak. Management 101, and CX has been doing it for years.

[reazasassain]

You’d have to be crazy to not think something will happen. For 5 months the airline has operated at somewhere between 5-20% normal capacity. All other airlines around the world have laid off significant numbers of staff and are expecting this crisis to continue well into 2021. What makes us think Hong Kong is any different?

Can any of us predict exactly what will come, probably not. I don’t think anyone saw the government contributing a 5 billion dollar bailout. I’m sure if that didn’t go through we’d already have experienced whatever cuts are to come.

until then I’m still being paid and better off than most of my colleagues at other airlines.

[fly1981]

Exactly. Notice it's the OP's first post. Expectation Management leak. Management 101, and CX has been doing it for years.

🙄if I had a dollar for every time there has been a ‘management leak’ in the last few months, I would not need to fly again...NOT ONE of These ‘apparent’ leaks has proved even remotely true.

[Gnadenburg]

Yes I came to pprune to listen to well-connected authorities like "unitedcx" whose speculation was consistently and wildly inaccurate. Should have stuck with my own sources from the HK Club. Below was from April. Leaks at the time, about a week before the latest fuel hedge fiasco became known, said the situation hopeless without a government bail out and that the "they'd" got it wrong again with fuel.

Only murmurs I'm hearing now are jobs must be saved for locals.

Yes, this is bailout territory now. Was heartening to hear rumours of the ease of credit available recently. But if its paying off a bad fuel hedge bet, rumours of a government intervention requirement plausible and where will Air China play out?

The intent of a more rapid transfiguration of Hong Kong, aided by a crisis, will have implications for a highly visible flagship.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

item 6, what a pisser that would be for the 'volunteers'!

[fly1981]

What an absolutely ludicrous thread.
Why would the company allow 99 to go to 08? Why not everyone on cos18?

I guess the only thing that has been written here that might, MIGHT be correct is - I agree KA will be downsized ( HKE can do all the work they do ), and when CX is allowed to **** the slots/ route rights over they will.

Personal opinion.

now that the government is involved in the group, China will become the priority( not to mention the fact that they are the highest traveling nation in the world) ka is not going anywhere, They own 85 percent of the Chinese routes, with the Neo’s arriving they will fit the position perfectly for the lower capacity forecast, not necessarily in China, but many other group destinations. A new top dog introduced, followed by an advert for flight deck crew placed on the 18th June 2020 must make ka one of the only ‘hiring’ airlines in the world. Cx has been trying to merge ka since they bought the airline, if it’s not demerit points, it’s another excuse. If anything, hke is dead in the water, low cost airlines all over the world are folding everyday...holiday travel, which is what they exist for is not going to be back to ‘normal’ for a long time to come...a new cos across the board doesn’t make sense, after all it would unify the pilot body. Cost saving will come with the introduction of ‘minor’changes’ to current COS, policy’s that cost a lot of money will be changed, Early retirement offered for the top ranks, voluntary redundancy worst case scenario. At the end of the day, it all depends on which way this thing turns next, I don’t believe anyone in the driving seat knows exactly what is to come . One thing is for sure, the Hong Kong pilot pool has done a lot better than those in the Middle East, be grateful for that.

as you said, personal opinion.

[AllWobbly]

now that the government is involved in the group, China will become the priority( not to mention the fact that they are the highest traveling nation in the world) ka is not going anywhere, They own 85 percent of the Chinese routes, with the Neo’s arriving they will fit the position perfectly for the lower capacity forecast, not necessarily in China, but many other group destinations. A new top dog introduced, followed by an advert for flight deck crew placed on the 18th June 2020 must make ka one of the only ‘hiring’ airlines in the world. Cx has been trying to merge ka since they bought the airline, if it’s not demerit points, it’s another excuse. If anything, hke is dead in the water, low cost airlines all over the world are folding everyday...holiday travel, which is what they exist for is not going to be back to ‘normal’ for a long time to come...a new cos across the board doesn’t make sense, after all it would unify the pilot body. Cost saving will come with the introduction of ‘minor’changes’ to current COS, policy’s that cost a lot of money will be changed, Early retirement offered for the top ranks, voluntary redundancy worst case scenario. At the end of the day, it all depends on which way this thing turns next, I don’t believe anyone in the driving seat knows exactly what is to come . One thing is for sure, the Hong Kong pilot pool has done a lot better than those in the Middle East, be grateful for that.

as you said, personal opinion.


I believe the NEOs are going into storage?

[fly1981]

i believe the neos are going into storage?


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
if anything is going into storage it’s the 777’s at this rate.

[Ecam321]

HKE is taking delivery of a NEO this month and another in the next.

Dos not sound like an airline dead in the water.

[fly1981]

HKE is taking delivery of a NEO this month and another in the next.

Dos not sound like an airline dead in the water.

thats great👍 The apparent restructure is only due 4th quarter. Guess only time will tell....

[Fly747]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
if anything is going into storage it’s the 777’s at this rate.

There will be lots (777and330) going into storage soon. They can’t be left in HK much longer as they’re rotting away.

[cxorcist]

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-cathay-pacific/cathay-pacific-considers-drier-storage-options-for-unused-planes-idUSL4N2EC0NL

I wonder if LIFO will be the way they cut jobs?
Not sure what your contract says, but mine is very clear. I expect it to be followed. If it’s not, I expect my union to enforce the contract, in court if necessary.

Obviously, these cuts should have been made 4-5 months ago, but here CX is paying know nothing “pilots” for literally nothing. I know they are cheap, but they are not free. You have to be pretty cynical to think this is an industrial play against expats while the airline fights to survive.

Loyalty to non-essential staff is actually a betrayal of the airline as a whole in times like these. Apparently, CX has other plans, or maybe they don’t and are a truly rudderless ship.

[fly1981]

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-cathay-pacific/cathay-pacific-considers-drier-storage-options-for-unused-planes-idUSL4N2EC0NL

I wonder if LIFO will be the way they cut jobs?


not sure how that article leads to last in first out, airlines all over the world send aircraft to dry environments for storage, from a maintenance perspective makes complete sense. It will be interesting to see which fleets loose most airframes, as mentioned previously, my bet is 777 and 330’s to go first.

[cxorcist]

not sure how that article leads to last in first out, airlines all over the world send aircraft to dry environments for storage, from a maintenance perspective makes complete sense. It will be interesting to see which fleets loose most airframes, as mentioned previously, my bet is 777 and 330’s to go first.
Pretty simple maths 1981, parked airplanes equals excess pilots. Pilots aren’t geniuses, but do try to keep up mate!!!

[fly1981]

Pretty simple maths 1981, parked airplanes equals excess pilots. Pilots aren’t geniuses, but do try to keep up mate!!!

im not disagreeing with the excess pilot story ‘mate’( a term I really don’t like throwing around, especially as I doubt you and I would fall into that category) the fact that they are going into ‘storage’, and as you quit correctly stated, pilots are not geniuses, so, in case you cannot keep up, straight off Wikipedia is defined as:

”

storage

noun

the action or method of storing something for future use.”


The excess pilot pool will no doubt exist, it could be temporary, possibly permanent, who knows, one thing is for certain, they won’t deal with that until they have a better idea. As for LIFO, no point kicking a dead horse, that point has been discussed. Ask your EK/QR/BA ‘mates’ how that is working out for them...

[cxorcist]

im not disagreeing with the excess pilot story ‘mate’( a term I really don’t like throwing around, especially as I doubt you and I would fall into that category) the fact that they are going into ‘storage’, and as you quit correctly stated, pilots are not geniuses, so, in case you cannot keep up, straight off Wikipedia is defined as:

”

storage

noun

the action or method of storing something for future use.”


The excess pilot pool will no doubt exist, it could be temporary, possibly permanent, who knows, one thing is for certain, they won’t deal with that until they have a better idea. As for LIFO, no point kicking a dead horse, that point has been discussed. Ask your EK/QR/BA ‘mates’ how that is working out for them...
Keep dreaming MATE! Good luck with your juniority. Maybe CX will give you an extra few bars just for being cheap. In the end, that’s all you’ve got going for you. Right?

[3Greens]

Well, at BA we are using LIFO (+)
for redundancies.

[Pickuptruck]

3Greens, that's not what BALPA is saying, it would be very surprising if all the junior crew were Skippers and F/Os on the 744, since that's where cuts are coming from.

Still amazes me at CX that the guys who are on RA 55 are so desperate to go to 65 that they can interpret from the massive oversupply of pilots we currently have and suggest the company might not want those on COS99 to retire at 55 but stay on longer instead.

[cxorcist]

3Greens, that's not what BALPA is saying, it would be very surprising if all the junior crew were Skippers and F/Os on the 744, since that's where cuts are coming from.

Still amazes me at CX that the guys who are on RA 55 are so desperate to go to 65 that they can interpret from the massive oversupply of pilots we currently have and suggest the company might not want those on COS99 to retire at 55 but stay on longer instead.
Yes, the RA55 vs RA65 gamble from 2009 is looking rather dicey at the moment. However, that is changing the subject. Redundancies are done from the bottom, period. That is irrespective of CoS99, 08, or based CA, CBA, or EA. This pipe dream that it will look like QR or EK is just that. I’m not sure what is going on at BA or VS, except that it seems completely irrelevant to CX.

[Pickuptruck]

Yes, the RA55 vs RA65 gamble from 2009 is looking rather dicey at the moment. However, that is changing the subject. Redundancies are done from the bottom, period. That is irrespective of CoS99, 08, or based CA, CBA, or EA. This pipe dream that it will look like QR or EK is just that. I’m not sure what is going on at BA or VS, except that it seems completely irrelevant to CX.

Sorry to say, there is now way redundancies will come from the bottom. CX was bailed out by the HKG Govt and they made it clear the company restructures as it sees fit. The Govt wants it's investment back so redundancies will be in the most efficient means possible. Please don't start saying but we have a contract, but we have a contract. It's worthless in a court in Hong Kong in the current climate.

[Fly747]

Yes, the RA55 vs RA65 gamble from 2009 is looking rather dicey at the moment. However, that is changing the subject. Redundancies are done from the bottom, period. That is irrespective of CoS99, 08, or based CA, CBA, or EA. This pipe dream that it will look like QR or EK is just that. I’m not sure what is going on at BA or VS, except that it seems completely irrelevant to CX.

You’re absolutely correct cxorcist. BA and VS are irrelevant to CX, in those companies the 747 pilots are going. In CX they are staying, whatever their seniority.

[CXDOG]

You’re absolutely correct cxorcist. BA and VS are irrelevant to CX, in those companies the 747 pilots are going. In CX they are staying, whatever their seniority.
For now, yes. Until the next cargo downturn...

I’m on the 747 but I’m not so arrogant to think that our current Teflon status will last.

[Progress Wanchai]

Yes, the RA55 vs RA65 gamble from 2009 is looking rather dicey at the moment. However, that is changing the subject. Redundancies are done from the bottom, period. That is irrespective of CoS99, 08, or based CA, CBA, or EA. This pipe dream that it will look like QR or EK is just that. I’m not sure what is going on at BA or VS, except that it seems completely irrelevant to CX.

You’re correct that our contracts are quite clear regarding redundancy and are legally enforceable. So take it to the next step. How will you ensure your contract is enforced or how will you seek redress if the company uses another clause to reduce excessive staff other than the redundancy clause?

Obviously an unfair dismissal claim is the recourse for anyone who believes they’ve been unfairly dismissed. What does this mean practically?

In the event of a successful judicial process in accordance with the Employment Ordinance the courts will enforce compensation less than that which the company will probably already have paid. Under the EO there is no requirement for a company to reinstate an unfairly dismissed employee.

So yes, our contract will necessitate management being rather “creative” to achieve their objectives and will keep their lawyers in a job for the foreseeable future. But it won’t save anyone here from joining the world wide scrap heap of unemployed pilots.

I firmly believe in our contract and the ability to seek redress in accordance with Hong Kong law. But I also respect that doesn’t amount to much.

Good luck to all. It’s going to get painful for everyone.

[Farman Biplane]

With plenty of QF,BA,VS 747 pilots out of work, sounds like a prime time to reinvent the ASL saga with substantially reduced contracts/bases etc

[Gnadenburg]

Locals jobs are important to the government.

[Flying Clog]

Not to mention enshrined as a result of the government bail out. HKG locals, including expat PR holders 'shall' be kept on before non-PR holders, regardless of seniority, is my understanding.

[AllWobbly]

You’re correct that our contracts are quite clear regarding redundancy and are legally enforceable. So take it to the next step. How will you ensure your contract is enforced or how will you seek redress if the company uses another clause to reduce excessive staff other than the redundancy clause?

Obviously an unfair dismissal claim is the recourse for anyone who believes they’ve been unfairly dismissed. What does this mean practically?

In the event of a successful judicial process in accordance with the Employment Ordinance the courts will enforce compensation less than that which the company will probably already have paid. Under the EO there is no requirement for a company to reinstate an unfairly dismissed employee.

So yes, our contract will necessitate management being rather “creative” to achieve their objectives and will keep their lawyers in a job for the foreseeable future. But it won’t save anyone here from joining the world wide scrap heap of unemployed pilots.

I firmly believe in our contract and the ability to seek redress in accordance with Hong Kong law. But I also respect that doesn’t amount to much.

Good luck to all. It’s going to get painful for everyone.

Minor point there’s no unfair dismissal in Hong Kong. (no constructive dismissal either).
The only valid grounds for a “complaint” are those arising from unlawful dismissal. I think that’s what you meant.

[Progress Wanchai]

Minor point there’s no unfair dismissal in Hong Kong. (no constructive dismissal either).
The only valid grounds for a “complaint” are those arising from unlawful dismissal. I think that’s what you meant.

Thanks Wobbly.
I think the correct EO term is “wrongful termination of contract”. Unfortunately the penalties for the company are minuscule compared to the savings that could be made.

Knowing your contract without knowing the legislation that make the contract worth anything is only seeing half the picture.

[TimeToWhine]

If CX have yet to be revealed plans to make pilots redundant based on LIFO, then why are they still conducting SO initial training and upgrades?

[Jetdream]

Base training on the 777 earlier this week. The mind boggles

[Farman Biplane]

Also advertising for DEFO for Dragon and Air Hong Kong.
Madness, but CX know they are hiring them on as the cheapest pilots on COS18.

[cxorcist]

If CX starts busting contracts, legal or illegal, enforceable or not, the moral at CX will sink to depths previously unknown. The disdain between pilots and management will be so toxic that the airline may never recover.

Through pure misfortune, CX is enjoying most pilots being onside at the moment as we all seek to survive this virus. It’s one thing to ask for SLS and get union approved pay concessions for idled, based pax pilots. It is something very different to furlough out of seniority against every contract in CX/KA, except the “amendable” POS18.

This airline will quite literally crash and burn if it tries to fly the operation solely with pilots on local contracts. They aren’t there YET, and they know it. Letting go of guys at 55 on CoS99 is fair enough, but out of seniority redundancies are a radical path that not even CX is brave enough to try on.

CX has an opportunity. They are at a fork in the road and can go several different directions. At the moment, it appears there is no leadership making any decisions. Perhaps that is wrong, and they just haven’t moved yet. I would like to think that the plan for expensive expats is to move them onto bases and keep mostly local contracts in Hong Kong, but since when has CX ever done anything that actually makes sense?

[Flex88]

For now, yes. Until the next cargo downturn...

I’m on the 747 but I’m not so arrogant to think that our current Teflon status will last.

I heard the market for Rubber Dog Sh*t was "drying" up :-)

[Flex88]

Locals jobs are important to the government.

With China's new security law being rammed down HK's throat and the Corporate exodus beginning, I would think that "the rule of Law" , criminal, Corporate or EMPLOYMENT would be paramount to HK !!
But don't use the USA as an example, lawlessness reigns supreme...

[mngmt mole]

...thanks to the Democrats and the insane ultra leftists that have hijacked every aspect of their party.

[controlledrest]

My guess the company will:Quicken the already announced plans to ditch 330s and older 777s

Offer an early retirement package. Will be a cheap package but they will pitch it just high enough to shed some of the more senior guys. Who wants to live in just another Commie China city anyway?

Offer long term leave without pay. Redundancies would cost too much and would have to be in reverse seniority (we have enough pilots based with legal protections for it to be any other way), so a work around is furlough. A variation to the contract but can be implemented with agreement.

If the company was smart they would offer bases to get 50% of pilot body based - immediately removes expensive housing and education and aligns with recommendations from Jepp as how to maximise productively from air crew.

[main_dog]

That all makes sense. So... forget about it.

[MENELAUS]

Is that forget about it....or....fugedaboutit ?

[RAT Management]

It's; FUGEDABOUTIT!

[MENELAUS]

It's; FUGEDABOUTIT!

You’re absolutely right. It is. Sorted.

[Flex88]

While CX leaders hide in secret rooms unable to find managers who will lead "without" a consensus, the rest of the industry, worldwide, are progressive and far less circumspect than CX.
United Airlines sees the obvious 2 - 3 year forecast and makes a move... CX is still ensuring all managers have had their Diversity & Unconscious Bias training.
Reality check, the following is just "one" airline !!!

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/united-airlines-just-shared-some-very-bad-news-its-most-fascinating-thing-ive-seen-this-week.html

[cxorcist]

While CX leaders hide in secret rooms unable to find managers who will lead "without" a consensus, the rest of the industry, worldwide, are progressive and far less circumspect than CX.
United Airlines sees the obvious 2 - 3 year forecast and makes a move... CX is still ensuring all managers have had their Diversity & Unconscious Bias training.
Reality check, the following is just "one" airline !!!

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/united-airlines-just-shared-some-very-bad-news-its-most-fascinating-thing-ive-seen-this-week.html
Who woulda thought??? Socialism at CX! The Company turns itself into politically correct jobs program. This won’t end well if we don’t find a real leader pdq.

[Busbitch]

I have friends with around 15 years continuous service on Aussie base, stressing out on less than half pay. They have with no idea what will happen to them at the end of next month. They are watching as new joiners on full pay do a 777 aircraft rating & base training. No that's pretty insulting.

[Coronavirus]

I have friends with around 15 years continuous service on Aussie base, stressing out on less than half pay. They have with no idea what will happen to them at the end of next month. They are watching as new joiners on full pay do a 777 aircraft rating & base training. No that's pretty insulting.

Tell your mates to move back to the Hong Kong base and stop complaining.

These are unprecedented times. They made choices and now they need to live by them.

This entitled attitude is farcical.

I'm sure if the airline went under, you'd still be complaining that one group is more entitled than the other.

[hyg]

While CX leaders hide in secret rooms unable to find managers who will lead "without" a consensus, the rest of the industry, worldwide, are progressive and far less circumspect than CX.
United Airlines sees the obvious 2 - 3 year forecast and makes a move... CX is still ensuring all managers have had their Diversity & Unconscious Bias training.
Reality check, the following is just "one" airline !!!

https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/united-airlines-just-shared-some-very-bad-news-its-most-fascinating-thing-ive-seen-this-week.html
That's exactly the problem at CX, dragging their feet hoping for a rebound. The entire management has rest their hope or basically gamble on a rebound that is apparently about to happen soon. Staff and their family deserve to know as soon as possible so that they can plan for their future

[cxorcist]

I have friends with around 15 years continuous service on Aussie base, stressing out on less than half pay. They have with no idea what will happen to them at the end of next month. They are watching as new joiners on full pay do a 777 aircraft rating & base training. No that's pretty insulting.
Indeed!

Insulting at best, cynical and devious at worst.

[doolay]

I think everyone is wondering why the hell they are training/upgrading anyone at this stage of the game.

[Oasis]

To think that all they are wasting now, they have to recoup from all the staff later, either by concessions or by sackings.

[Curry Lamb]

That's exactly the problem at CX, dragging their feet hoping for a rebound. The entire management has rest their hope or basically gamble on a rebound that is apparently about to happen soon. Staff and their family deserve to know as soon as possible so that they can plan for their future

Probably the same fuel hedging clown who gambled away billions, hoping the fuel price would reach 200 a barrel, like that was ever gonna happen. Bunch of amateurs and fools.

[Pickuptruck]

That one post makes all of your posts doubtful and as is your mental competency to hold a medical.
The village idiot speaks again. If you looked into the details of the CX bailout you’ll see the Pan Dems Had insisted they would block the deal and force the company into shutting down because they want all big business gone from Hong Kong. Hence the bailout money came from other govt means.
if you’d looked at the first bills the pan Dems had blocked, and they had stated they would block everything, you’d see it was a bill to improve access for the disabled on public transport.

Were you off sniffing panties and missed the news while they were smashing up the Airport?

[Memorylapse]

Not sure what your contract says, but mine is very clear. I expect it to be followed. If it’s not, I expect my union to enforce the contract, in court if necessary.

Obviously, these cuts should have been made 4-5 months ago, but here CX is paying know nothing “pilots” for literally nothing. I know they are cheap, but they are not free. You have to be pretty cynical to think this is an industrial play against expats while the airline fights to survive.

Loyalty to non-essential staff is actually a betrayal of the airline as a whole in times like these. Apparently, CX has other plans, or maybe they don’t and are a truly rudderless ship.

Union? Mabye time to awake from that deep sleep you have been in.

[controlledrest]

CX has enough cash to last another 18 months at current rates.

Management expects the company to survive and others to fail (Air Asia and HK Airlines are obviously on the edge of collapse). They then hope to make serious $ again.

With no landing fees at VMMC and no traffic to slow up the circuit it is currently relatively cheap to base train. By completing base training on those already in the system they get a full type rating, whereas putting them on hold might require retraining which will cost more.

The company is shafting the Aussi base as pay back for their push back during the recent EBA.

[controlledrest]

The village idiot speaks again. If you looked into the details of the CX bailout you’ll see the Pan Dems Had insisted they would block the deal and force the company into shutting down because they want all big business gone from Hong Kong. Hence the bailout money came from other govt means.
if you’d looked at the first bills the pan Dems had blocked, and they had stated they would block everything, you’d see it was a bill to improve access for the disabled on public transport.

Were you off sniffing panties and missed the news while they were smashing up the Airport?

Yeah, I was sniffing panties with that post....thought it was about Trump. Post deleted.

[Curry Lamb]

Management expects the company to survive and others to fail (Air Asia and HK Airlines are obviously on the edge of collapse). They then hope to make serious $ again.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too high, if I were you.
The company just announced a 10 billion HKD (yes billion) loss for the 1st half of this year, and doesn't expect things to improve anytime soon.

Read "deep structural changes coming" (aka laying off staff) rumours are 800 - 1000 pilots.

The companies woes started many years ago, with incompetent "management" clowns treating staff with utter contempt, fast forward to the Trade War, protests, the china virus and now the security law, that will be the final straw.

Expats are packing up, companies are shipping out. HK is fast becoming just another chinese city, and CX just another chinese airline, that will have to compete with the other big boys. It's going to be survival of the fittest (or deepest pockets in this case), and with CX already having to survive on handouts from the taxpayers, I'd hold of buying those CX shares. But that's just me.

[Flex88]

https://www.revolver.news/2020/07/red-bull-fires-black-lives-matter-employees/

[cxorcist]

https://www.revolver.news/2020/07/red-bull-fires-black-lives-matter-employees/
Amen and amen! Sadly, CX is just “woking” up...

[controlledrest]

Tell your mates to move back to the Hong Kong base and stop complaining.

These are unprecedented times. They made choices and now they need to live by them.

This entitled attitude is farcical.

I'm sure if the airline went under, you'd still be complaining that one group is more entitled than the other.

Move back to HKG? Brilliant. Increase costs to the company by increasing their base pay from Aussi levels to HKG levels, increase the salary expense from the current 50% reduction to 20%, pay them housing, pay them education, pay for the move back of household items.

Why the hell should the Aussi aircrew be paid so much less than the HKG crew? They are already saving the company a lot of money (lower salaries, no housing, no education).

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Why? Because mature cheddar cheese costs $14 a half kilo. Interestingly, the Aussie base is infinitely expensive at present. Getting paid for nothing is way more expensive than getting paid for something. Simple maths.



Move back to HKG? Brilliant. Increase costs to the company by increasing their base pay from Aussi levels to HKG levels, increase the salary expense from the current 50% reduction to 20%, pay them housing, pay them education, pay for the move back of household items.

Why the hell should the Aussi aircrew be paid so much less than the HKG crew? They are already saving the company a lot of money (lower salaries, no housing, no education).

[ACMS]

Why? Because mature cheddar cheese costs $14 a half kilo. Interestingly, the Aussie base is infinitely expensive at present. Getting paid for nothing is way more expensive than getting paid for something. Simple maths.

crap, we could be doing some flying easily. The company stand us down because they can......I suppose you think you’re productive and making money for the company do you.....

[Hugo Peroni the V]

And they will for a long time to come......making the cockpit a happier place for many long suffering FO and SO. QUOTE=ACMS;10843939]crap, we could be doing some flying easily. The company stand us down because they can......I suppose you think you’re productive and making money for the company do you.....[/QUOTE]

[Veruka Salt]

Not intending to add to the anxieties on the base, but the current cost argument in favour of bases is way overdone.

No new hire since mid 2008 has received expat housing. Over 2/3 of HK based pilots receive HKPA only. The cost differential between HK and the bases has been strongly converging for 12 years now, and is probably quite negligible.

ACMS, for a MEL based guy (or girl) to ‘be doing some flying’ requires a MEL-HKG sector to start, of which there are very few. And the aircraft has to get from HKG to MEL first. Hence why HK crew are doing it. And most of us HKG crew are doing little, if any flying either.

[Oasis]

Veruka salt.

Your logic is a bit flawed;
You are forgetting that only relatively senior people get a base allocation and it is exactly those pilots who cost the most in terms of housing and other allowances.
So for every new base position filled, there is one fewer b-scale pilot in Hong Kong.

You would be correct if you would compare a new hire with a based pilot, but a new hire can’t get a base.

[reazasassain]

What makes anyone think that those benefits a B scaler had will exist in the coming months? Do you really think Cx is going to miss this opportunity to make wholesale changes to the policies. Notice I said policies not contracts.

They have slowly been positioning themselves for these changes. Taking away the unions ability to facilitate negotiations by canceling the GFBA and the recognition agreement. They can unilaterally do whatever they wish and there isn’t a darn thing you and I are going to do about it.

so when it comes to costs I don’t think there will be much difference between a B scaler and a C scaler in the coming days. The costs savings to be on a base may soon be negligable.

[Oasis]

Some bases have in recent months become way cheaper percentage wise than the Hong Kong base has.
For instance, London base is on half salary as far as cx is concerned.
Even if you put a Hong Kong based pilot on 50 percent pay cut, cx only really saves 20-30 percent if you consider education allowance and housing still go on uncut.

If there’s a new contract in Hong Kong, I’m sure the bases won’t be far behind with similar cuts.

So I estimate bases will stay relevant for the time being, if anything it will probably be more relevant.

[ACMS]

For all those guys in here salivating at the prospect the bases will be cut and they will slide up the ASL consider this,
Oz based crew will be on standown for 6 months minimum. Including lost superannuation, plus what the Australian Govt contribute in jobkeeper Cx are only paying us about 35% ( 65% pay cut ) of our normal monthly income.....35%......and that 35% obviously DOESN'T include any expat benefits.....which you guys get on top.........so just imagine for a minute how much cheaper we are than a HK crew member to have hanging around waiting. Yes some of you in HK are fortunate to be flying once a month....... but you certainly ain’t close to being productive.

It basically costs them very little to have experienced crews waiting on the books for an upturn which will come, this is a marathon not a sprint.

Maybe some of you wish you were on a base now?

So can we please just cutout the bs and learn to help each other.......in fighting does not help our situation.

We are indeed lucky we work for Cathay Pacific under these circumstances.......There’s a lot of not so lucky Pilots in the World right now.

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

For the love of god, can you stop whining for just one day?

[ACMS]

For the love of god, can you stop whining for just one day?



ahhhhhhhh I’m responding to silly immature thoughtless posts above me specifically regarding bases, including from you mate, so how’s about you stop posting cheap petty rubbish.........

The first immature post directed at the based Pilots was post #60 and I didn’t respond until post #65.

Back up the truck and if you don’t want people to say something then don’t post crap.

SIMPLE.

[LLLQNH]

For all those guys in here salivating at the prospect the bases will be cut and they will slide up the ASL consider this,
Oz based crew will be on standown for 6 months minimum. Including lost superannuation, plus what the Australian Govt contribute in jobkeeper Cx are only paying us about 35% ( 65% pay cut ) of our normal monthly income.....35%......and that 35% obviously DOESN'T include any expat benefits.....which you guys get on top.........so just imagine for a minute how much cheaper we are than a HK crew member to have hanging around waiting. Yes some of you in HK are fortunate to be flying once a month....... but you certainly ain’t close to being productive.

It basically costs them very little to have experienced crews waiting on the books for an upturn which will come, this is a marathon not a sprint.

Maybe some of you wish you were on a base now?

So can we please just cutout the bs and learn to help each other.......in fighting does not help our situation.

We are indeed lucky we work for Cathay Pacific under these circumstances.......There’s a lot of not so lucky Pilots in the World right now.

I don't think people were being as vindictive as you seem to think. No one is hoping that you get cut, and we all know as does management if they close a base then those pilots return to Hong Kong. The possibility of base closures is something that you need to be prepared for and the unions gaming for, if you decide you don't want to return to Hong Kong as is your contractual and legal right then unfortunately there's not much that can be done! if they did close bases the only reason I can think of to do so would be a shot in the dark by management that those crew wouldn't want to return to Hong Kong and thus it would save them some mandatory redundancies, other than that I see no reason to close them. All will become clear by December.

All of us in Hong Kong need to remember that it's one seniority list and one company basing doesn't affect LIFO, it seems a few of the newer COs18 hires don't get that probably because of their lack of experience in the industry.

We all need to start planning and we all need to be incredibly familiar with our conditions of service/contracts.

[MENELAUS]

Our C’s of S are somewhat moot if they rip up the playbook as every airline around the world has been doing. The exception so far being CX, bizarrely enough, and NAM carriers, due to legal constraints. And I wouldn’t put it past the North American carriers acting dramatically once the period of financial relief is over. And who’s going to stop them ? The collective might of our unions ? Good luck.
No one that I know takes any pleasure ( vicariously or otherwise) in what is happening to those on the bases.
Those of you on the Oz base are being hoist on your own petards, namely your allegedly superior EBA. An agreement that in better times served you well, as most based Australians that I flew with were at great pains to point out. Sadly it would appear to have some downsides to it.
None of us are immune. And a company run like ours must have war gamed this out to a conclusion.
Just wish they’d get on with it.

[fly1981]

I don't think people were being as vindictive as you seem to think. No one is hoping that you get cut, and we all know as does management if they close a base then those pilots return to Hong Kong. The possibility of base closures is something that you need to be prepared for and the unions gaming for, if you decide you don't want to return to Hong Kong as is your contractual and legal right then unfortunately there's not much that can be done! if they did close bases the only reason I can think of to do so would be a shot in the dark by management that those crew wouldn't want to return to Hong Kong and thus it would save them some mandatory redundancies, other than that I see no reason to close them. All will become clear by December.

All of us in Hong Kong need to remember that it's one seniority list and one company basing doesn't affect LIFO, it seems a few of the newer COs18 hires don't get that probably because of their lack of experience in the industry.

We all need to start planning and we all need to be incredibly familiar with our conditions of service/contracts.

agreed in most part, except that it has nothing to do with ‘cos18’ lack of experience in the industry, LIFO is not in their contract.

[LLLQNH]

agreed in most part, except that it has nothing to do with ‘cos18’ lack of experience in the industry, LIFO is not in their contract.


It is in the majority of Cos18 recipients contracts. Section 12 of COs18; titled redundancy states redundancies will be executed in LIFO order. COs18 was amended by management on May 16 2020 removing the redundancy section from COS18, management confirmed this amendment only applies to those who joined on or after May 16 2020.

Now you might ask why remove a redundancy section from a contract at a time when it became increasingly more likely redundancies would be made...

[mngmt mole]

I suspect that the company will argue that those COS18 pilots who do NOT have the LIFO in their contracts are not subject to dismissal BEFORE more senior pilots who do have such a clause, thereby allowing them to retain the most junior (cheapest) members at the expense of more senior members. It's an interesting quandary....all to be revealed in the next few weeks no doubt.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

I suspect that the company will argue that those COS18 pilots who do NOT have the LIFO in their contracts are not subject to dismissal BEFORE more senior pilots who do have such a clause, thereby allowing them to retain the most junior (cheapest) members at the expense of more senior members. It's an interesting quandary....all to be revealed in the next few weeks no doubt.

No, the initial reason was that they wanted to be able to fire some of the cos18 extendees before others, depending on fleet/needs.
If they come up with a plan, that is.
Believe it or not, they were still offering extensions not so long ago (maybe they still are?) and these guys kept their place on the seniority list.

Now, what you say is not necessarily untrue. They'll probably try to screw us if they can.

[Busbitch]

I read today, experts in Australia are preparing for a 25% PER ANNUM increase in Suicides and a 15% PER ANNUM increase in diagnosed anxiety and depression for the next five years.
I imagine in our Pilot community the numbers will be at least that.
Don't expect ANYTHING in the way of support from your Hong Kong employer. Stop bashing on the based guys, they are not your enemy, Pick up the phone or your laptop & check on your colleagues, many of them are standing by while their careers, lives and relationships fall to pieces.
Aviators used to be known for their strength, determination, unity, professionalism & friendship. Let's all try to claw a bit of that back eh !

[Mill Worker]

Move back to HKG? Brilliant. Increase costs to the company by increasing their base pay from Aussi levels to HKG levels, increase the salary expense from the current 50% reduction to 20%, pay them housing, pay them education, pay for the move back of household items.

Why the hell should the Aussi aircrew be paid so much less than the HKG crew? They are already saving the company a lot of money (lower salaries, no housing, no education).



A few have asked and the Company have said "cannot"...

[Curry Lamb]

No need for "have"

[cxorcist]

No need for "have"
No need for grammar police

[MENELAUS]

What’s wrong with the present perfect tense. ?

[controlledrest]

It is in the majority of Cos18 recipients contracts. Section 12 of COs18; titled redundancy states redundancies will be executed in LIFO order. COs18 was amended by management on May 16 2020 removing the redundancy section from COS18, management confirmed this amendment only applies to those who joined on or after May 16 2020.

Now you might ask why remove a redundancy section from a contract at a time when it became increasingly more likely redundancies would be made...

When a contract is made worse (removing the LIFO Redundancy clause) it only applies to those who agree to it (new joiner), so this alteration does not apply to existing crew on POS18. I suspect what has happened is that the company accepts that LIFO applies and that they are not happy about it, so from now on it won't apply to new crew. Over time it will disappear from the contracts, so when we are in the **** in the future the company won't have to worry about LIFO, they will just fire those they don't like.

If one searches for COS18 on IntraCX the COS and Handbook can be downloaded. They really are a POS. Only two types of crew would accept this COS: the desperate and the inexperienced. In the Handbook the company claims they can amend the COS as they see fit and that the COS is bench marked against other carries and is competitive. Two very dubious claims.

[wongsuzie]

No need for "have"


Wow! how old are you guys?.

[MENELAUS]

Wow! how old are you guys?.

Too old. We’ll find out shortly.