View Full Version : Hey FAA,...you missed one! :-)
Robbiee
3rd Jul 2020, 19:08
They made such an effort to placate to the rest of you and eliminate the term "Settling with Power" from their vocabulary (**** even Robinson got rid of it), but I guess they weren't quite that thorough, as I found this in the description on Steep Approaches,...while looking for that ETL vibration from the other thread,...ha ha!
A steep approach permits entry into most confined areas and is sometimes used to avoid areas of turbulence around a pinnacle. An approach angle of approximately 13° to 15° is considered a steep approach. [Figure 10-4] Caution must be exercised to avoid the parameters for settling with power (20–100 percent of available power applied, airspeed of less than 10 knots, and a rate of descent greater than 300 fpm). For additional information on settling with power, refer to Chapter 11, Helicopter Emergencies and Hazards
Anyway, just found this amusing. :E
Yes, but it's not the term itself they needed to remove as it is an accurate description of trying to hover with insufficient power available followed by decaying Nr and massive overpitching. It was just confusing it with VRS that was the issue
:ok:
Robbiee
4th Jul 2020, 18:06
Yes, but it's not the term itself they needed to remove as it is an accurate description of trying to hover with insufficient power available followed by decaying Nr and massive overpitching. It was just confusing it with VRS that was the issue
:ok:
Actually, the term was removed because they don't agree with what you just said (as neither do I) and are simply tired of arguing. :rolleyes:
So how would you describe VRS compared to what I just said.?
I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
#
nomorehelosforme
4th Jul 2020, 22:10
So how would you describe VRS compared to what I just said.?
I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
#
Crab you may have risen to greater heights without knowing about it!!!!
Robbiee
4th Jul 2020, 22:15
So how would you describe VRS compared to what I just said.?
I'm really sure the FAA didn't do it because of me btw
#
VRS is (simply put) when you settle into your own downwash, because your airspeed is less than ETL and your descent rate is greater than 300fpm. We used to call it "settling with power" because you are "settling" despite having plenty of power available,...and since you could not get into "settling with power" without first entering the vortex ring state, these two terms were used synonymously.
Now sure, overpitching can lead to VRS, but since the root cause of that situation was insufficient power, it makes no sense to call it, settling "with power".
Anyway, this is all moot, as the FAA no longer uses that term, so for us, "settling with power" does not exist,....well at least when they discover that they missed this one and erase it too that is.
:8
"settling with power" does not exist,..
:8
Funny---we use that term all the time n the utility world...., the mountain flying world.... maybe you should broaden your scope a little, you are are confirming many people's opinions of "poorly trained" Robbie Pilots. (And I try to differentiate between well trained and poorly trained).
Robbiee
4th Jul 2020, 23:28
Funny---we use that term all the time n the utility world...., the mountain flying world.... maybe you should broaden your scope a little, you are are confirming many people's opinions of "poorly trained" Robbie Pilots. (And I try to differentiate between well trained and poorly trained).
Yes, we old school pilots still use the term (just like I still buy DVDs,...to which a kid scolded me the other day). The point here (which I thought was obvious) is that the FAA removed it from the text (i.e. THEY no longer use that term) so eventually you will have a whole generation of young pilots who don't use that term at all!
:ugh:
nomorehelosforme
5th Jul 2020, 00:45
Yes, we old school pilots still use the term (just like I still buy DVDs,...to which a kid scolded me the other day). The point here (which I thought was obvious) is that the FAA removed it from the text (i.e. THEY no longer use that term) so eventually you will have a whole generation of young pilots who don't use that term at all!
:ugh:
Keep digging.......
Sling loading a drum of cable into a steep sided canyon which necessitated a rather steepish and slow approach, coming to the hover it didn't, max power, still going down vertically, zero airspeed, but came to the hover with greatly reduced power setting when the load hit the ground. One of those I learnt about flying from that moments. Question, what condition had I placed myself in?
Robbiee
5th Jul 2020, 02:31
Keep digging.......
Ha! Sometimes I forget how "entertaining" you all can be. You know what I'm just gonna sit back and smile, while I sip cocoa from my "Worlds #5,673rd Poorly Trained Robbie Pilot" mug and enjoy the show.
:D
Bell_ringer
5th Jul 2020, 08:47
Ha! Sometimes I forget how "entertaining" you all can be. You know what I'm just gonna sit back and smile, while I sip cocoa from my "Worlds #5,673rd Poorly Trained Robbie Pilot" mug and enjoy the show.
:D
It must be such a burden having all the answers and having to tolerate all the the ignorant fools on this forum :ugh:
You could save a fortune doing away with the receive channel on your radio.
Frank must be pleased with such a wonderful poster boy for his products.
ShyTorque
5th Jul 2020, 08:54
Whatever next...will the FAA be going metric?
There's no need to flounce off Robbie - I was trying to make a serious point which seems forgotten in the argument - settling with power is to do with performance (or lack of it) but VRS is purely an aerodynamic condition.
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP and maximum MAP before they go flying? How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
Now try coming to an OGE hover when your engine isn't performing properly or your blades are dirty (or even both) - you were expecting to have that performance but it's not there and you start to descend, immediate reaction is to raise the lever - cue Nr decay as the engine maxes out and an unwanted descent which, if you are lucky, will stop as ground effect saves you. You have just setlled with power but were not in IVRS or VRS.
That is why it is important to understand the difference, to make pilots aware that you must know your expected performance BEFORE you go flying rather than finding out the hard way.
The problem is, you can exceed your MAP and there are no flashing lights or klaxons in the cockpit so it is easily ignored but you are slowly trashing your engine.
helimutt
5th Jul 2020, 09:38
Ok, I just watched an american instructor carrying out an initial r22 lesson with a very able jet pilot (go watch it on YouTube if you want to know, IMHO, how not to do an r22 first lesson) and the subsequent couple lessons, its no surprise that some Americans don’t believe in Settling with Power, if thats the Standard of instructional technique. (Disclaimer, only my opinion)
If you actually go away and look at the issues/conditions for VRS and SWP, surely one is not necessarily required for the other. Remember from your instructor telling you that VRS will increase, the more pitch you pull?
So, Mr old school pilot Robbiee, please can you give us the benefit of your vast wisdom and knowledge and for one last time, shut down this whole argument and answer the following few questions clearly for us all because obviously there are many on PPRuNe who don’t know a thing about helicopters.
1. Would the Vouichard Technique work with Settling with Power? (Or does SWP not exist)
2. What is VRS exactly and under what conditions are you most likely to experience it?
3. What exactly is over pitching ?
4. What exactly is Settling with Power in your expert opinion?
I really look forward to your clear explanations, hopefully not just pulled from a text book. Keep it simple please as we are only Helicopter pilots.
This argument about VRS and SWP has been done to death on here but it still surprises me to see people discounting them as fake, or thinking they are the same thing.
As for #5673, was the mug given as an award?? ;)
Have a nice day.
Bell_ringer
5th Jul 2020, 10:18
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP and maximum MAP before they go flying? How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
In warmer climes it is surprising how many Robinsons are smited by landing earlier than the pilot had intended, almost always with the SWP buzzer, sorry, low RPM warning, screaming on the way down.
Without fail, it is attributed to an unexpected loss of power or VRS and never to power required exceeding power available.
The differences between these conditions should be painfully apparent to people operating piston-powered aircraft, with low power margins.
aa777888
5th Jul 2020, 11:34
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAPSadly, there is no information in the POH that will allow that to be done.and maximum MAP before they go flying?That's a required, pre-takeoff checklist item. to calculate 5 minute max. and max. continuous vs. OAT. A lot of folks tend to forget about it after takeoff, though, and never look at the OAT again. :=How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.Again, you can't do that, but you can at least check to see how many inches of MP you've got under 5 minute max. and MCP, which is always a good thing to know.
Now try coming to an OGE hover when your engine isn't performing properly or your blades are dirty (or even both).Dirty blades :yuk: You know I bought myself a brand new, 8 foot tall ladder this Spring and promised myself I would work extra hard at keeping those blades clean this year. Haven't cleaned them once, yet :} But you are right about that.
The problem is, you can exceed your MAP and there are no flashing lights or klaxons in the cockpit so it is easily ignored but you are slowly trashing your engine.Oh how I wish they would make a real power indicator for Robinson helicopters and include a high MP warning. There was rumor of Robinson working on a real EIS. If so I hope it comes in a form easily retrofitted to existing ships. With avionics technology today there really is no excuse for the engine steam gauges anymore. It's just common sense and good for safety.
Bell_ringer
5th Jul 2020, 11:50
Sadly, there is no information in the POH that will allow that to be done.That's a required, pre-takeoff checklist item. to calculate 5 minute max. and max. continuous vs. OAT. A lot of folks tend to forget about it after takeoff, though, and never look at the OAT again. :=Again, you can't do that, but you can at least check to see how many inches of MP you've got under 5 minute max. and MCP, which is always a good thing to know.
If you know what your max MP is, which is a preflight item, and you do proper planning to calculate what max could be, based on the warmest forecast temp and highest point of departure then it really isn't rocket science.
Pulling into a hover gives a pretty clear idea of margin to max.
Having a giant display that says 99% isn't going to change much when too many haven't bothered to plan and ignored the subsequent low-rpm alarm.
If you know what your max MP is, which is a preflight item, and you do proper planning to calculate what max could be, based on the warmest forecast temp and highest point of departure then it really isn't rocket science.
Pulling into a hover gives a pretty clear idea of margin to max.
Having a giant display that says 99% isn't going to change much when too many haven't bothered to plan and ignored the subsequent low-rpm alarm. Absolutely agree Bellringer:ok:
aa777888 - and you will of course have calculated your AUM for take off and checked that you have both IGE and OGE performance available at your operating density altitude.
Your multiple emoticons don't make it clear if you believe dirty blades can make a big difference to hover power or not. If you don't then you really do need to think again.
On big boy helicopters you get to do power assurance checks on a daily or weekly basis to check how the engine is performing and if they are good and your hover performance is suffering, chances are your blades need cleaning.
aa777888
5th Jul 2020, 13:04
If you know what your max MP is, which is a preflight item, and you do proper planning to calculate what max could be, based on the warmest forecast temp and highest point of departure then it really isn't rocket science.BR--It would seem you did not read my post #17 above very carefully. Without the requisite performance data in the POH, how am I to do this? I'd really like to know!
https://robinsonheli.com/r44-ii-poh/
You use the placard to see what your max MAP is. If when you lift to the hover, you have the same MAP - you have zero performance margin. This should correlate with your assessment of AUM and density altitude on the IGE and OGE hover graphs. If you think you are well under the MAUM for IGE or OGE hover according to the graphs and you are still pushing the MAP limit in the hover then either check your figures or call the engineer.
Bell_ringer
5th Jul 2020, 13:17
BR--It would seem you did not read my post #17 above very carefully. Without the requisite performance data in the POH, how am I to do this? I'd really like to know!
https://robinsonheli.com/r44-ii-poh/
IIRC, correct me if I am wrong, there is a limitations chart stuck above you in the cockpit which details maximums for given altitudes and OAT and which should be checked prior to take off.
Pulling into a hover gives you a delta.
Robinson are kind enough to provide hover performance charts like any other manufacturer.
What else is needed?
If you plan to stick to the performance limitations provided, leave a little margin for error and fly with a degree of accuracy (preferably into wind), you're not about to exceed the performance envelope.
I see Crab beat me to it. :ok:
Lets say you are at 1300lbs in a R22HP, you can operate IGE up to 8500’ PA in standard atmosphere and OGE up to 6,500’ PA in standard atmosphere.
To operate at OGE at 8,500 in the same conditions, you would need to reduce your AUM by 100 lbs.
So if you are at 1200 lbs you can operate at 8,500 but you still only just have OGE.
If you now reduce your AUM further by 5% (60lbs) or 10% (120lbs) of that OGE AUM, you have a thrust margin which will get you out of trouble and allow you to manouevre OGE with some degree of safety.
All this assumes you are at or under your max MAP in the hover.
It might be academic since the POH shows you can't get much more than 6,000 PA ISA standard at the limiting MAP.
aa777888
5th Jul 2020, 13:45
Both of you gentlemen are infuriating.
You tell me to do "A".
I tell you "A" is not possible.
So, when you realize this is the case, then you come back and tell me to do "B" as if it is an answer to how to do "A", and then sit back smugly in front of the PC.
You do this all the time.
Why do you do that? It's either intellectual dishonesty or you gents are just getting too old.
Answer the original question, I dare you: you tell me to calculate the MP in a hover for conditions of flight. I tell you the data is not int the POH to make that calculation. How do I calculate it for a Robinson R44? Looking up the max. continuous or 5 minute max. allowable MP's are not correct answers.
Must enter the real world now. Back later to see how this works out...
Calm down, calm down.
No, Robinson don't provide you with a means for calculating your MAP in the hover.
However, you can confirm that you are under the AUM for IGE and OGE hover for your operating conditions (presuming you know your PA and OAT).
If you are under the AUM from the both the graphs then, as long as you are in the hover at less than your MCP figure from the placard, you should have a half decent performance margin.
You can work out roughly how much by looking at the MAUM for OGE at your selected operating altitude - lets say you are at 6000 ft PA and plus 30 deg C OAT and hit the 2200lbs GW line on the graph. If you are at 2200lbs you have OGE but no performance margin, for every 220lbs you are under that AUM, you gain a 10% thrust margin. That sounds like a lot but it is probably enough power to overcome light turbulence or achieve a couple of hundred fpm RoC in the hover.
At lower density altitudes you will have more performance and should never get close to MAP limits unless you are ham fisted.
The problems come when pilots do not calculate their AUM and C of G correctly and do not check they are under the weights for IGE or OGE hover at their planned operating altitude.
It's not our fault Robinson don't give you better performance graphs btw.
aa777888
5th Jul 2020, 17:25
No, Robinson don't provide you with a means for calculating your MAP in the hover.
Thank you. Finally.
However, you can confirm that you are under the AUM for IGE and OGE hover for your operating conditions (presuming you know your PA and OAT).
But there you go again. Why the extended discourse on something that a) is only tangentially relevant to the original issue, and b) is something that every helicopter pilot needs to demonstrate prior to getting their first license or certificate and therefore should go without saying? Why this compelling need to embellish something along a tangent? It's as if you want to obfuscate the fact that you had to, didn't want to, or couldn't answer the original question or issue. It's bizarre.
I'd rather slag on Robinson for the meager data in the POH than deal with this crazy fetish for misdirection you have. And you know how "protective" I am of Robinson ;)
Robbiee
5th Jul 2020, 17:33
There's no need to flounce off Robbie - I was trying to make a serious point which seems forgotten in the argument - settling with power is to do with performance (or lack of it) but VRS is purely an aerodynamic condition.
How many Robinson pilots calculate their expected hover MAP and maximum MAP before they go flying? How many lfit to the hover and don't check to see if the expected MAP is the same as their actual MAP and then wonder why there might be a difference.
Now try coming to an OGE hover when your engine isn't performing properly or your blades are dirty (or even both) - you were expecting to have that performance but it's not there and you start to descend, immediate reaction is to raise the lever - cue Nr decay as the engine maxes out and an unwanted descent which, if you are lucky, will stop as ground effect saves you. You have just setlled with power but were not in IVRS or VRS.
That is why it is important to understand the difference, to make pilots aware that you must know your expected performance BEFORE you go flying rather than finding out the hard way.
The problem is, you can exceed your MAP and there are no flashing lights or klaxons in the cockpit so it is easily ignored but you are slowly trashing your engine.
So, basically what you're telling me is that you cannot differentiate between not using a term and not understanding performance issues,...got it.
Look, if you want to call having HOGE problems because of engine trouble and/or dirty blades "settling with power" then well,...bully for you!
The whole point of this fiasco is that the FAA has abandoned that term all together, yet in their effort to, "erase Moses' name from all of history", they missed one little inscription.
,...and I found that funny.
So, take it the wrong way, take offense, take unbridge, look down your noses at the "poorly trained Robbie pilot", I've seen it all before, knock yourselves out,..I just wish I had more whip cream for my cocoa!
:ok:
Look, if you want to call having HOGE problems because of engine trouble and/or dirty blades "settling with power" then well,...bully for you! I guess you are not getting it. If you don't have enough power to hover OGE and you try anyway then you will end up sinking and decaying the RRPM - is that clear enough?
Robbiee
5th Jul 2020, 21:41
I guess you are not getting it. If you don't have enough power to hover OGE and you try anyway then you will end up sinking and decaying the RRPM - is that clear enough?
Look,...Lou, I'm not asking you who's on first, I'm simply telling you Who is the name of the guy playing first base!
:ugh:
Now you have lost me completely........
But there you go again. Why the extended discourse on something that a) is only tangentially relevant to the original issue, and b) is something that every helicopter pilot needs to demonstrate prior to getting their first license or certificate and therefore should go without saying? Why this compelling need to embellish something along a tangent? It's as if you want to obfuscate the fact that you had to, didn't want to, or couldn't answer the original question or issue. It's bizarre because it is all about power awareness and pre-flight planning. Yes you demonstrate it for your check ride but many seem to subsequently ignore it, hence accidents attributed to VRS which are often SWP.
I am required by law to calculate my aircraft performance if I am flying commercially and by other regulations if I am flying military - No-one is watching GA pilots, some of whom just treat their aircraft like a truck, put in it what they like and then get airborne without considering the implications.
If my tedious lengthy discourse makes one GA pilot pause and consider how they are approaching flying in a cavalier manner - it will be worth your ire.