Finland's air force quietly drops swastika symbol

[India Four Two]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/660x371/_113186020_6ce2fa4f_9c79_4cbc_8249_ab936b564967_26668a42b8c2 9f9f1e33ee7ebe9c9e4a4c8a557f.jpg

The old emblem for the Finnish Air Force Command (left) featured a swastika, but the current emblem of the force does not
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645

[Islandlad]

Catching up. Better late than never. Started to go out of fashion after about 1939. There will be people defending it in some convoluted way. That will tell us more about them than the Swastika history. Good luck it may have been, but it lost that title a long time ago. Reversed. Backward swastika: backward thinking.

[SpringHeeledJack]

The symbol, in all iterations has been around for many thousands of years used in many different world religions. The National Socialist Party that came to power in Germany decided to tilt it and make it their own.representing the qualities desired to defend and put forward the cause of the Aryan race. Sadly due to the horrors of WW2 and the emotional charge instilled in people because of this association ANY Swastika is immediately associated with the Nazi Hakenkreutz, no matter how different in design, colour or form.

About 30yrs ago I had the experience of watching a friend give a slideshow presentation to a room of 60-70yr old Germans of his mountaineering expedition in Nepal. During the slideshow there were a few images of Swastikas on buildings, monasteries mostly, and there was an audible collective gasp by the audience and a following mini-hysteria that lasted several minutes. This was caused by the emotional charge associated with seeing this symbol again. Once pointed out that it was over 1,000 years old and was a sign of harmony and auspiciousness and was different in every way to the Nazi version, the room settled down again.

Whilst I agree that as a symbol, the associations are too strong to be workable because of sensitivities, it is a shame that something that has been around since before the Nazi Party, in the case of the Finnish and Latvian forces, and for millennia in religions should be quashed.

[fauteuil volant]

There will be people defending it in some convoluted way. That will tell us more about them than the Swastika history.

I don't think that to be a fair remark.

[Peter47]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Swastika_Society

https://redswastika.moe.edu.sg/about-rss/our-history

My reaction when I saw references to Red Swastika on arrival in Singapore were initially of shock but it predated an odious regime on the other side of the world.

[Saint Jack]

Not only Red Swastika's in Singapore, the Mee Toh Primary School has a yellow swastika in it's school crest. https://meetoh.moe.edu.sg/

[tdracer]

The symbol, in all iterations has been around for many thousands of years used in many different world religions. The National Socialist Party that came to power in Germany decided to tilt it and make it their own.representing the qualities desired to defend and put forward the cause of the Aryan race. Sadly due to the horrors of WW2 and the emotional charge instilled in people because of this association ANY Swastika is immediately associated with the Nazi Hakenkreutz, no matter how different in design, colour or form.

Whilst I agree that as a symbol, the associations are too strong to be workable because of sensitivities, it is a shame that something that has been around since before the Nazi Party, in the case of the Finnish and Latvian forces, and for millennia in religions should be quashed.

Well said. On this side of the pond there has been a big controversy about the "OK" sign you might with the right thumb and forefinger. It's been used my whole life (and presumably for generations before that) to simply signal "things are OK". But then some white supremacists started using it as a sort of 'gang sign' - so now the woke crowd has declared anyone who flashes the OK sign - no matter how innocently - is automatically a vile racist.
WTF!
I'm just waiting for some woke idiot to declare the "thumbs up" signal to be racist or otherwise vile :ugh:

[SpringHeeledJack]

I'm just waiting for some woke idiot to declare the "thumbs up" signal to be racist or otherwise vile https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif

They'll have the angry ghosts of the Romans to deal with!

[FlightlessParrot]

I'm just waiting for some woke idiot to declare the "thumbs up" signal to be racist or otherwise vile :ugh:

When I went to live in Australia in the '60s, I was told that "thumbs up" was an obscene gesture, which being interpreted meaneth "sit on this." That sense seems to have fallen into desuetude with the passage of time, as I suspect will the appropriation of the OK gesture. Swastikas are different, and I must confess, until I recently discovered the history, I was surprised to see pictures of Finnish aircraft during the Winter and Continuation war wearing that symbol. "Weren't they good guys?" I thought, and then discovered they also got some arms from Germany. Now I understand it was a case of "my enemy's enemy," the same principle on which Churchill accepted an alliance with the USSR, and that swastikas had nothing to do with it. But still, that symbol is irretrievable in the Euro-American world (First Nations excepted).

[megan]

When I went to live in Australia in the '60s, I was told that "thumbs up" was an obscene gesture, which being interpreted meaneth "sit on this."In my near eight decades never heard of it I'm afraid, not someone having a lend of you, or do I need to get out more? Middle finger on the other hand....

[meleagertoo]

The thumb-up hitch-hiking sign is the equivalent of a raised middle finger in some countries, Greece being one istr, although they do realise that a hitch hiker dosn't intend that meaning. That understanding is not present in some other places though.

[FlightlessParrot]

In my near eight decades never heard of it I'm afraid, not someone having a lend of you, or do I need to get out more? Middle finger on the other hand....
Could have been someone having a loan of a new chum, but there are famous cultural incompatibilities. My favourite, relevant to the context, concerns the Australian colloquial expression for a minor greebie (and this is one I've heard people using IRL). Australian woman goes to London for working holiday, catches a bad cold, rings the office to call in sick and, in total innocence, says "I can't come to work today, I'm in bed with a wog." Also a once common Australian brand of adhesive tape which caused similar problems when approaching UK stationery departments: Durex.

My info on hand signs was NSW, '60s, where the middle finger was only known to people with an interest in Americana.

Edited to add: Quora thread Thumbs up in Australia (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-in-Australia-giving-a-person-a-thumbs-up-is-like-flipping-them-the-bird) suggests that my memory of a long time ago is perhaps accurate, though maybe it was only used in such coarse places as the NSW country.

[jensdad]

Anyone know why the new Finnish Air Force emblem seems to have a crown in it when Finland is a republic?

[fauteuil volant]

Could have been someone having a loan of a new chum, but there are famous cultural incompatibilities. My favourite, relevant to the context, concerns the Australian colloquial expression for a minor greebie (and this is one I've heard people using IRL). Australian woman goes to London for working holiday, catches a bad cold, rings the office to call in sick and, in total innocence, says "I can't come to work today, I'm in bed with a wog." Also a once common Australian brand of adhesive tape which caused similar problems when approaching UK stationery departments: Durex.

My info on hand signs was NSW, '60s, where the middle finger was only known to people with an interest in Americana.

Edited to add: Quora thread Thumbs up in Australia (https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-in-Australia-giving-a-person-a-thumbs-up-is-like-flipping-them-the-bird) suggests that my memory of a long time ago is perhaps accurate, though maybe it was only used in such coarse places as the NSW country.

As Shaw said, perhaps here we have another two nations separated by a common language?

[megan]

NSW? Say no more. :p Re Durex, I made that mistake when posted to the US and went to the stationary section of the PX and asked the young lass for a rubber (eraser as it's called in the US). Australian dictionary,

https://slll.cass.anu.edu.au/centres/andc/meanings-origins/all

[FlightlessParrot]

NSW? Say no more. :p

Thought that might have been the prob. Togs or bathers?

[Mr Mac]

As an exchange student in the states in mid 70,s I was staying with a family who had a couple of daughters of the Cheer leader / girl next door variety, and we were going up to Washington for couple of days which involved an early start. I offered the previous evening to "knock" them both up in the morning for the early start. This caused both girls to burst out laughing, while parents looked at me some what aghast,needless to say my error was corrected.There was also an issue when I called their female Labrador a "bitch", not a female dog. Two countries separated by a common language !!
Cheers
Mr Mac

[Haraka]

I once had an interesting query from a lady American Officer when describing the Harrier as the "Bona Jet".......

[megan]

Togs or bathers?Budgie Smugglers is an additional option.

[Bull at a Gate]

FlightlessParrot and I must be about the same age. When I was at school in NSW the thumbs up gesture was considered very rude. The V Sign was ruder. But the middle finger (“the bird”) was unknown.

[India Four Two]

While we are discussing hand gestures, I should mention that early on in my time in Vietnam, I learned that the "crossed-fingers" gesture is extremely offensive:

https://weirdwonderfulvietnam.wordpress.com/2015/05/29/things-not-to-do-in-vietnam-1-crossed-fingers/

[tbwtg]

Anyone know why the new Finnish Air Force emblem seems to have a crown in it when Finland is a republic?
Not an expert, but the coat of arms of Finland has a crowned lion, and crowns seem to come up in other symbols of state organisations, eg the Finnish police have a badge showing a sword with the handle formed from a crowned lion, have seen these around Helsinki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Finland

[washoutt]

Finland was originally a Duchy. A duke or grand-duke is royalty, e.g. the Grand Duke of Luxemburg is royal (AFAIK), to be adreessed as His Royal Highness.

[Beamr]

Anyone know why the new Finnish Air Force emblem seems to have a crown in it when Finland is a republic?
Sorry for lifting up an old thread, but this seemed to be left unanswered.

First of all, the swastika in the old emblem was actually the cross of Swedish count Eric von Rosen. This was due to the fact that count von Rosen donated the Finnish air force its first aircraft (Thulin Typ D) on 6th March 1918. The count had his own lucky charm painted on the wings of the airplane to provide luck for the newly formed air force of independent Finland. The cross was hence adopted for the Finnish air force. The colors were blue cross on white bottom, the blue coming from von Rosen and white was just by chance: it was the color of the paint used to cover up the "T" for Thulin, painted at the factory. The logo was abandoned of aircraft in April 1945 to make it easier to make difference in between Finnish and german planes (war of Lapland, in which the Finnish were obliged to push german forces out of finnish soil), but it remained in the general emblem for the air force.

What comes to the new general emblem of the air force, the form on the top isn't actually a crown, but a partly opening heraldic rose.

[Rwy in Sight]

meleagertoo, in Greece we use the thumb up sign like in the UK or USA and the middle finger to be naughty.