Primary flying training duration

[Cerney218]

Can anyone remember how long primary flying training lasted in the late 60s, and was there a ground school element to the course.

[Top West 50]

Thirty hours Chipmunk before JP. Aircrew Officer Training School for ground subjects.

[Herod]

Certainly up until '66, it was ab initio JP. 160 hours or thereabouts. I believe the Chipmunk came in soon after that, as a cheaper way of weeding out those who passed Biggin, but couldn't cope with an aeroplane. Prepared to be corrected. Graduated JP course May '66.

[Sky Sports]

How does that compare with now. How many hours can you expect on EFT, BFJT, AFJT and type conversion to Typhoon or Lightning?

[NutLoose]

To put it in context, a new name has been added to the list of those entitled to wear the Battle of Britain clasp, sadly posthumously.

Sergeant James Eric William Ballard has joined the ranks of Churchill's 'The Few'
Had nine hours of flying time before joining 610 (County of Chester) Squadron
Follows discovery of logbook, which shows an operational sortie flown in 1940


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8217189/Spitfire-pilot-added-ranks-The-Few-nearly-80-years.html

[Busta]

PFS ChurchFenton 256(2) course. 19 Jan - 8 Apr 1970. Flying from 4 Mar. 30rs total, 4.20 solo.

Thence to Leeming

[212man]

To put it in context, a new name has been added to the list of those entitled to wear the Battle of Britain clasp, sadly posthumously.

Sergeant James Eric William Ballard has joined the ranks of Churchill's 'The Few'
Had nine hours of flying time before joining 610 (County of Chester) Squadron
Follows discovery of logbook, which shows an operational sortie flown in 1940


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8217189/Spitfire-pilot-added-ranks-The-Few-nearly-80-years.html

I assume that was nine hours on the Spitfire - obviously wasn’t total.

[Top West 50]

PFS ChurchFenton 256(2) course. 19 Jan - 8 Apr 1970. Flying from 4 Mar. 30rs total, 4.20 solo.

Thence to Leeming
A vintage time to be there!

[brakedwell]

Slightly earlier in 1956. ITS Kirton Lindsey 3.5 months. Ternhill - Piston Provost 9 months - 62 hrs dual/60 hrs solo. Swinderby - Vampire T11 and FB5/9 10 months - 70 hrs dual/50 hrs solo. (Inc 1 month extension due to grounding of single seat Vampire 5 and 9.

[teeteringhead]

Along with a few others, I did an "experimental" Primary course in 1968. We did 60 hours Chipmunk at Linton with the RN HSP (pre-helicopter) Course, which included 12:30 solo (a pretty good ratio - better than PFS - of about 21%). All - with a lot of ground school - in about 5 months (8th July to 22nd November)

We then joined a (shorter) ex-UAS Course at Syerston on the JP. Oh, and just to completely muck up any comparisons/conclusions, we (the non-UAS bit) only flew the JP 4, on which I did 141 hours (probably should have been less - there was a LOT of flex!), which included 42:30 solo (30%!). And that lot took 8 and a bit months; 15th December to 28th August.

Chipmunk to JP4 was a sporting transition - kind of 11+ direct to A level........:eek::eek::eek: But somehow I went solo after 6:30 dual - the quintessential frightened teenager!!

[Herod]

Chipmunk to JP4 was a sporting transition - kind of 11+ direct to A level...

Having never even owned a motorbike, I guess ab initio JP was like going from Reception class to A level !! Managed somehow, probably credit goes to my instructor.

[Top West 50]

PFS ChurchFenton 256(2) course. 19 Jan - 8 Apr 1970. Flying from 4 Mar. 30rs total, 4.20 solo.

Thence to Leeming
PFS students were in short supply - my two at the time were OC Nazall and APO Mayes.

[Ant T]

My Dad died last year aged 85, and I now have his logbooks.
He was Fleet Air Arm.
Basic training between Feb 56 and March 57 was 6 months/135 hours on Provost T1, at Syerston, followed by 6 months/115 hours on Vampire T11/FB5 at Valley, before going on to Gannets, and eventually anti-submarine helicopters via Hiller12, Whirlwind, Wessex.

[Sky Sports]

How does that compare with now. How many hours can you expect on EFT, BFJT, AFJT and type conversion to Typhoon or Lightning?

Can anyone help with this?

[Vortex Hoop]

While we are on the subject of training, does anyone know when flight cadets stopped doing 2/3 years of combined IOT and BFT at Cranwell? Was it 1973? ISTR Cranwell became a 18 week course running concurrently with OCTU Henlow, then all at Cranwel in 1981?
I have checked wiki and OldCranwelians but can't see a definitive answer.

[Busta]

My instructor was Msr Etherayes!

[kenparry]

The change at Cranwell was before 1973. By 1971, the University cadetship scheme was in full flow, and the Cranwell cadet scheme had ended. The University Cadetship started with a quick (4-6 weeks?) initial Officer Training Course at Cranwell, which the guys (yes, all male) left as Acting Pilot Officers, then 3 years at a University, with UAS membership and Chipmunk(later Bulldog) flying. This was followed by a "proper" IOT course at Cranwell, then a JP course to wings standard.

[Paying Guest]

The change at Cranwell was before 1973. By 1971, the University cadetship scheme was in full flow, and the Cranwell cadet scheme had ended. The University Cadetship started with a quick (4-6 weeks?) initial Officer Training Course at Cranwell, which the guys (yes, all male) left as Acting Pilot Officers, then 3 years at a University, with UAS membership and Chipmunk(later Bulldog) flying. This was followed by a "proper" IOT course at Cranwell, then a JP course to wings standard.
Not quite. The last flight cadet entry (101) graduated in Feb 73, by which time the Graduate Entry Scheme (GES) was in full flow with the first (1GE) having graduated in Aug 71. Also, there were women on the GES from the start.

[Proudlion]

Not quite. The last flight cadet entry (101) graduated in Feb 73, by which time the Graduate Entry Scheme (GES) was in full flow with the first (1GE) having graduated in Aug 71. Also, there were women on the GES from the start.
No female pilots though.
By 1978 the DE BFT/AFT/TWU pilot training system I went through was as follows: April to Aug '78 IOT RAF Henlow; Sept '78 1FTS Linton, 4 weeks GS, 134 hrs JP3A till July '79, then 64 hrs JP5A til Sep '79; 4FTS Valley Oct '79 to May '80 with 98 hrs Hawk T1; 1 TWU at Brawdy from May to Sep '80 with 71 hrs Hawk T1, then to Phantom OCU in Nov '80. So, total of about 20 months and 367 hrs jet time (including lots of non-course gash trips) from start of IOT to hitting the OCU.

[Quietplease]

1956 89 hours JP1 and 2 at Hullavington then 120 Vampire at Swinderby then 40 minutes conversion to taildragger prop Chipmunk.Now that was a sporting transition.

[Top West 50]

My instructor was Msr Etherayes!
An interesting start to your flying career, I expect?

[Vortex Hoop]

Thanks! Was it really 3 years spent at Cranditz as a Flt Cdt?!

I did the 24 weeks in the 90s and that was enough...

[Dan Winterland]

I did the 24 weeks in the 90s and that was enough...

The 18 weeks I did was more than enough to learn how to make your toecaps shiny and build tripods out of pine poles. Oh, and something called SMEAC.

[staircase]

The last 'complete' Cranwell cadet entry was 98, and it was two and a half years. April '68 to summer '70.

When 99 entry turned up they were offered a university place or stay at the towers, and a number went took the option of university.

101 was indeed the last of the cadets but a much smaller entry.

[Busta]

An interesting start to your flying career, I expect?

Yes indeed, there followed 18 years of explosive fun!

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all

[BEagle]

I was on 99; after about a day they told us that the RAF wanted as many of us as possible to go to University. Some left almost immediately, but the rest of us did a whole year as Junior Entry, because 100 didn't arrive until autumn 1969.

We were commissioned a short while after the 'bitter and twisted' 97 entry became Senior Entry. I gather a few scores were settled before we left for 3-4 years....

The old 2 1/2 year Flt Cdt course was actually extremely good. But had I stayed on it, I would have graduated before the fast jet expansion began - and I doubt very much whether I'd have been good enough to fly the Gnat at Valley.

[charliegolf]

I was on 99; after about a day they told us that the RAF wanted as many of us as possible to go to University. Some left almost immediately, but the rest of us did a whole year as Junior Entry, because 100 didn't arrive until autumn 1969.

We were commissioned a short while after the 'bitter and twisted' 97 entry became Senior Entry. I gather a few scores were settled before we left for 3-4 years....

The old 2 1/2 year Flt Cdt course was actually extremely good. But had I stayed on it, I would have graduated before the fast jet expansion began - and I doubt very much whether I'd have been good enough to fly the Gnat at Valley.

A story, methinks?

CG

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Can anyone help with this?

Just gone through some notes I have.
Grading - Grob Tutor - 14 hours - 1 month - no solo
EFT - Grob Tutor - 66 hours - 7 months - solo at 11 hours
BFJT - Tucano - 121 hours - 9 months - solo at 8 hours
AFJT - Hawk T2 - 120 hours - 18 months - solo at 20 hours
OCU - "A FAST JET" - no data - no data - solo at 0 hours live , a few hours hours SIM ;-)

Obviously these days there is a greater emphasis on simulated training. It amazes me that the first F-35 / Typhoon flight is a solo flight. You learn to drive a Ford Fiesta, then move on to a Mondeo to an Aston Martin. They then put you in a Racing Sim / game for a few hours before letting you loose in an F1 racing car. Hope that helps.

But that train of thought pales to insignificance when you take the Nutty post on board:

To put it in context, a new name has been added to the list of those entitled to wear the Battle of Britain clasp, sadly posthumously.


Sergeant James Eric William Ballard has joined the ranks of Churchill's 'The Few'
Had nine hours of flying time before joining 610 (County of Chester) Squadron
Follows discovery of logbook, which shows an operational sortie flown in 1940


At around 2/3rds through grading, Sgt Ballard went to war. Respect.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

At around 2/3rds through grading, Sgt Ballard went to war. Respect.
212man has already posted (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/633634-primary-flying-training-duration.html#post10824525)"I assume that was nine hours on the Spitfire - obviously wasn’t total" and I have to agree with that. I really don't believe that Sgt Ballard only had 9 hours total flying time. No doubt the information sourced from the logbook has been misunderstood when putting this story to print. But then the Daily Mail is not renowned for accuracy in journalism. Even the Daily Mail article headline is poorly constructed:"Spitfire pilot is added to ranks of The Few nearly 80 years after the Battle of Britain when he fought Luftwaffe with only NINE hours' flying time before he was killed in action aged 23 in 1941"
Eh? This 'sentence' manages to imply that Sgt Ballard had 9 hours flying when he made his operational sortie in the Battle of Britain, on 8th October 1940, as well as still only having 9 hours flying when he was lost in action in 1941!

And whilst "... the discovery of the pilot's logbook, which shows he had flown an operational sortie on October 8, 1940" is pertinent, there is no evidence given in the article that during the qualifying sortie (for status as one of The Few) Sgt Ballard actually "... fought the Luftwaffe ..." as implied in the headline. Not that failing to locate and engage with the Luftwaffe should disqualify Sgt Ballard from being considered as one of The Few, he's earned title, but the 8th October 1940 sortie could easily have been a patrol that didn't encounter any enemy aircraft. The Daily Mail is clearly staffed with journalists who struggle to string coherent headlines together. The appalling syntax and absence of punctuation is stark!

The RAF's flying training system in the build up to, and during, WW2, was far more sophisticated and knowledgable than just sending pilots into combat with barely enough hours to go solo on any aircraft, never mind operate them as weapons platforms. Nine flying hours on Spitfires is the much more likely scenario. I am left worndering if Sgt Ballard, being RAFVR (see further below), had more than one logbook - a relatively small, slim volume recording his flying training, and a second, operational RAF unit logbook issued to him when he joined 610 Sqn.

So, to reiterate, Sgt Ballard would not have been flying Spitfires, operationally or otherwise, with only 9 hours total flying time. Forgive me for straying somewhat from the thread's purpose, but much of that Daily Mail article is just hoop!


PS: The National Archives at Kew has a record that Sgt J E W Ballard went missing, believed killed, on 27th August 1941, having been shot down in aerial combat over northern France. On that date he was flying a Spitfire, serial W3503, of 610 Squadron.

Other sources give Sgt Ballard's service number as 745731, and that he was a member of the RAFVR. W3503 was a Spitfire Mk Vb, and also carried unit code DQ-Q.

[Innominate]

Pilot Officer Billy Fiske joined 601 Sqn in July 1940; his first flight with 601 is logged as "Type solo" which suggests that he had not flown a Hurricane (or any other front-line type) before. https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/online_exhibitions/Fiske-Logbook-14-26-July-1940LG.jpg His first patrol was flown six days later, by which time he had some 10 hours on Hurricanes.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Pilot Officer Billy Fiske joined 601 Sqn in July 1940; his first flight with 601 is logged as "Type solo" which suggests that he had not flown a Hurricane (or any other front-line type) before. https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/images/online_exhibitions/Fiske-Logbook-14-26-July-1940LG.jpg His first patrol was flown six days later, by which time he had some 10 hours on Hurricanes.
Realistically such short time to flying in war is silly.

A more realistic figure would be 150-200 hours. Can't quite read the total hours at the bottom of that image but could be 155 or 185. That would be back end of current * BFJT.

* current based on Tucano streaming. No idea how hours change with the use of Texan. Don't expect up to that stage to be much different but may be quicker through the Hawk courses.
.

[Haraka]

"When 99 entry turned up they were offered a university place "
No we weren't.
The criteria were that we were " willing and able" to apply.

[Paying Guest]

I was on 99; after about a day they told us that the RAF wanted as many of us as possible to go to University. Some left almost immediately, but the rest of us did a whole year as Junior Entry, because 100 didn't arrive until autumn 1969.

We were commissioned a short while after the 'bitter and twisted' 97 entry became Senior Entry. I gather a few scores were settled before we left for 3-4 years.....

So how did it work BEagle? Were you commissioned more or less straight away on university cadet terms as APOs on the university cadet salary and did you eventually return to the Towers on a graduate entry course?

[Peter Carter]

Ah... 255(1)A Course. 15 Dec 69 to 27 Feb 70. 30.05 hrs. (Must have needed an extra 5 mins to get it right).

[Minnie Burner]

From Proudlion

By 1978 the DE BFT/AFT/TWU pilot training system I went through was as follows: April to Aug '78 IOT RAF Henlow; Sept '78 1FTS Linton, 4 weeks GS, 134 hrs JP3A till July '79, then 64 hrs JP5A til Sep '79; 4FTS Valley Oct '79 to May '80 with 98 hrs Hawk T1; 1 TWU at Brawdy from May to Sep '80 with 71 hrs Hawk T1, then to Phantom OCU in Nov '80. So, total of about 20 months and 367 hrs jet time (including lots of non-course gash trips) from start of IOT to hitting the OCU.

An impressively slick record and proof that the system did, once, work as advertised even if it was only on two basic types: JP and Hawk.
However! April 78 to November 80 is a trifle more than 20 months, whence you were still at Valley. Perhaps you meant 30? There was certainly a greater variety before that era, even if it did take a few months longer.

[Fareastdriver]

Signed on 4th April 1960 in Salisbury, now Harare. Supposed to start at South Cerney on 9th April but delayed in Nairobi so arrived on the 15th; Good Friday. Given a railway warrant to London and told to come back on Tuesday. Hit by a bat whilst playing softball so went to hospital for a week or so and then eventually commissioned on 30th September.

Two weeks leave then Tern Hill and two weeks groundschool and I started flying the Provost T1 on 28th October. On 27th June 1961 with 129 hrs total, of which 54.15 were solo I left Tern Hill for Oakington. There were only two of us going to Oakington because the whole course was supposed to go to Valley to do the Varsity AFS. We two threw our toys out of our prams and were changed to Oakington on the jet AFS. The others were gloating because they had six weeks leave before going to Valley where we only had one.

Started flying Vampires on the 19th July I got my wings on the 23rd March 1962, just over 23 months and 246.10 hrs from arriving at South Cerney Whilst I was at Oakington the Varsity AFS had moved from Valley to Oakington so my gloating Provost course were behind me on the supporting flight for my Wings Parade.

Three weeks later I was at Gaydon. Six weeks ground school and then seven flights totalling 27.45 hrs. and I was a qualified Valiant co-pilot on the 21st June.

Two weeks later I was on the Flight Refuelling course at Marham and I stared flying on 90 Sqn. at Honington on 18th July 1962.

[CharlieJuliet]

Joined Apr 63. South Cerney Apr - Jul 63. FTS Acklington JP Aug 63 - Aug 64 (104 dual and 62 solo). Held CAW Manby/Strubby Varsities Sep - Nov 64 (30 hrs). AFS Meteors Manby/Strubby Nov 64 - Apr 65 (45 dual 28 solo). Held 85 Sqn Meteors, Binbrook May 65 -Jul 65 (50hrs) 229 OCU Chivenor Hunter Aug 65 - Nov 65 (65 dual 49 solo) 226 OCU Coltishall Lightning Nov 65 - Apr 66. (64 dual 21 solo). Arrived on Squadron with 460 total 206 solo and almost exactly 3 years from start.

[Herod]

Joined 7.12.64. Commissioned 1.4.65. Held for 2 months at Waddington. JP course at Syerston; wings 13.5.66. Tern Hill, Sioux and Whirlwind. First flight on my first squadron 15.11.66. Two years four days and 273:30 in the logbook.

[Fareastdriver]

CharlieJuliet. You lucky barsteward. I joined three years too early.

[The...Bird]

How does that compare with now. How many hours can you expect on EFT, BFJT, AFJT and type conversion to Typhoon or Lightning?

Can anyone provide some current info on this? For Multis as well?

I suspect it's pretty shocking...

[Ruffles]

My Dad died last year aged 85, and I now have his logbooks.
He was Fleet Air Arm.
Basic training between Feb 56 and March 57 was 6 months/135 hours on Provost T1, at Syerston, followed by 6 months/115 hours on Vampire T11/FB5 at Valley, before going on to Gannets, and eventually anti-submarine helicopters via Hiller12, Whirlwind, Wessex.

Very similar to Ant T’s post. Dad died 3 years ago aged 86. BFT/AFT at Syerston Dec 52 - Sep 53, Prentice and Harvard. 200 hrs of which nearly 100 solo- an excellent ratio. Had to wait a short time before starting OFT at Culdrose, so held at RNAS Gosport and RNAS Lee-on-Solent. In just 6 weeks, in addition to some more Harvard time, he managed to qualify on the Tiger Moth, 2 marks of Firefly and the Sea Fury T20. His log book reveals that a day after his first flight in the Sea Fury, he took his future wife (3/O WRNS) flying in said aircraft - those were the days! Like Ant’s dad, Gannet, Hiller, Whirlwind and Wessex followed.

[CharlieJuliet]

FED - yes no real holding. Attested in Nairobi in Apr 63 so fellow colonial (5200...)

[brakedwell]

When I got my wings at Swinderby in August 1957 things started to go very wrong. I was very pleased with my Hunter posting, which meant holding at Valley where Royal Naval Pilots were trained. After a couple of months filling in time with the odd Vampire trip my Hunter course was cancelled due to the Duncan Sandys axe and I was posted to Dishforth as a UT Hastings 2nd pilot. I learned how to raise the flaps and undercarriage and do the odd job, but never learned to fly the aeroplane. Three months later I was posted to 99 Sqn as a second pilot. It was a soul destroying job, with the only sanity being we had to do 100 hours per year 1st pilot to keep our flying pay! For this we had an Anson and two Chipmunks to play with. The second pilots on Comet 2s had a pair of Meteor 7s to do the same thing. I managed to get the job of OIC of our three aircraft, which kept me sane.
When everybody on 99 were posted to Colerne in January 1959 and Britannia pilots were posted in I was posted to the Middle East on Twin Pioneers three months later, thanks I think to the high number of hours accumulated on the Anson.

[rotorfossil]

Joined October ‘57, wings September ‘59 then a couple of months holding at Valley on Vampires anticipating Hunters. Instead got “volunteered” to go to CFS- b..gger!
FED, l see you were at Oakington when I was insructing.

[Fareastdriver]

I presume that you weren't the one that demonstrated a wheels up at Marham.

[rotorfossil]

No, but nearly had a head on at the top of a loop with the whole of the Firebirds formation team.

[jumpseater]

70's Training
An interesting exchange on another corner of the interweb got me wondering about RAF Pilot/Officer training in the early 70's and wondered if anyone could throw a little light on it. Its context is potentially a bit 'Waltish'. The nature of the discussion is that he's implying he was an RAF Pilot, no mention of his snowdrop service.
The chap says he 'Got his wings' many decades ago. A quick look at web links of his indicate rank Flt Lt, Pilot Training 72-76 and then RAF Provost branch 76 to career end. Uni 65-68. Data from his online public accessible profiles.
s that appears an unusual (to my limited knowledge), what was the training sylabus?
On entry from civvy street how long would the basic officer training have taken, and at what part in that would he start flying and accruing hours? Allowing for initial entry training is there sufficient time to receive his wings within that 3-4 years before joining the rozzers? Intrigued by the branch change too, however....
What in simple terms does that phrase mean? Once you have your wings what would be the next steps? Why would you rebranch to Provost rather than a flying associated department? I have no doubt he could well have been accepted for Pilot officer aircrew training.
Ta in advance..

[olddog]

Joined 31 Oct 66 AOTS S Cerney, Grad 16 Feb 67. Previous RAF Flying Scholarship so straight to 6 FTS Acklington JP3/4 Apr67. 156 Dual 46 Solo. First Jet Solo after 6 hrs. Wings Feb 68. Brief hold Chipmunks Ouston 5.30 Dual 2.20 Solo. 5FTS Oakington, March - Aug 68 Varsitiy 86.40 Dual 19.00 Capt. First ME "Solo" after 13 hrs. Heavy landing at Stradishall after 16 hrs, WL677 written off. Solo again 2 days later! after 1.20 Dual Check! Held HQ Coastal Aug 68 - Apr 69 (Back log due TSR2/F111 fiasco). Refresher 5 FTS Apr 69 24.00 Dual 2.30 Solo. MOTU St Mawgan, Shackleton MR2 180 hrs, "Solo" 4 eng piston after12 hrs Jun - Oct 69. Operational Nov 69 (3 years join to operational) Total hrs to Operational approx 500).

[LOMCEVAK]

70's Training
An interesting exchange on another corner of the interweb got me wondering about RAF Pilot/Officer training in the early 70's and wondered if anyone could throw a little light on it. Its context is potentially a bit 'Waltish'. The nature of the discussion is that he's implying he was an RAF Pilot, no mention of his snowdrop service.
The chap says he 'Got his wings' many decades ago. A quick look at web links of his indicate rank Flt Lt, Pilot Training 72-76 and then RAF Provost branch 76 to career end. Uni 65-68. Data from his online public accessible profiles.
s that appears an unusual (to my limited knowledge), what was the training sylabus?
On entry from civvy street how long would the basic officer training have taken, and at what part in that would he start flying and accruing hours? Allowing for initial entry training is there sufficient time to receive his wings within that 3-4 years before joining the rozzers? Intrigued by the branch change too, however....
What in simple terms does that phrase mean? Once you have your wings what would be the next steps? Why would you rebranch to Provost rather than a flying associated department? I have no doubt he could well have been accepted for Pilot officer aircrew training.
Ta in advance..
At that time Initial Officer Training (IOT) was 16 weeks for direct entry cadets. For those who were University Cadets it was 14 weeks because there was a two week University Cadet Introductory Course prior to starting with the UAS. Basic flying training (Jet Provost) commenced on completion of IOT and 'Wings' were awarded at the end of Basic Flying Training. There was often little or no holding between courses back then and so wings were awarded some 15 - 18 months after starting IOT. This changed around 1977/78 to wings being awarded at the end of Advanced Flying Training but even then it was typically around 2 to 2 1/2 years from starting IOT to being awarded your wings.

I agree that his career path sounds unusual, and if someone spent 4 years as a pilot then changed branch it could be that they were medically downgraded or did not satisfactorily complete flying training. But there could be another reason.

[Shackman]

Hi olddog - still going strong I see.

I followed exactly the same training regimen as olddog (only I was down the back for the heavy landing at Stradishall). Same holding at both Ouston and Northwood/HQCC but course after him at MOTU, flying virtually same number of hours throughout. Of note was the hold at Ouston/NUAS - I'd never flown Chipmunk, but as I had wings it was assumed I could fly, and went solo (1 hour circuits and aeros !!) after a 1 hour dual check. 3yrs 2 months to Squadron with 1 year holding, 520 hours.

[jumpseater]

Gents, thank you for your thoughts, that puts a little more context for me. I did ask what types he’d flown, and he avoided that question which was what tweeked the ‘Waltometer’, which is particularly relative to the original discussion. Perhaps if he’s still emphasises he was an RAF ‘Pilot’ I should thank him for his 15 years service, especially the eleven with the Rozzers..

If his career was cut short medically i’d have a good degree of sympathy, but 30+ years later I’d wonder why you’d paint the picture you were a Pilot, rather than you started as a pilot and for whatever reason changed career path, staying in the service.

[BEagle]

[...] I should thank him for his 15 years service [...]

Aargh - not that sycophantic "Thank you for service" platitude which seems to have made its way across the Atlantic these days.

A quick look at web links of his indicate rank Flt Lt, Pilot Training 72-76 and then RAF Provost branch 76 to career end. Uni 65-68

Quite reasonable - a few holds were quite common during training back then. At White Waltham we had a chap who was at the AEF downstairs flying space cadets whilst holding for an OCU; as a break from Chipmunking, now and again he would nip off to do some Hunter refresher flying. You could easily drag pilot training out to 4 years only to be chopped at Chiv - and prefer a branch change rather than becoming a nav because in 1976 you might be lucky to be offered ME pilot training only if you'd made it to an OCU! There was a glut of ME pilots at the time and the worthless Jetstreams went into storage for a while, although some refresher training was flown on the Beech Baron at Bournemouth.

I was at Valley in 1975 when some chap came into the bar only to be recognised by people who'd been on the same Officer Training course - but had later become a Provost officer. "Hello, mate - what are you doing in this neck of the woods?" he was asked. "Err, oh I'm visiting a friend in OMQs" or somesuch excuse was the reply.

Actually, probably nothing of the sort. This was at exactly the time when Alistair Steadman, an ex-Vulcan captain who lived on Anglesey, was arrested for trying to sell secrets to the Russians. Convicted, he served 9 years behind bars!

[jumpseater]

[QUOTE=BEagle;10941700]Aargh - not that sycophantic "Thank you for service" platitude
[s/QUOTE]

Indeed. That one. :E

Edit: tvm for additional context

[Fareastdriver]

As I explained before I joined the RAF in Salisbury, now Harare, in 1960. When I did my first solo I sent a telegram to my father, a long time RAF pilot informing him of the fact.

He sent a reply: 'Congratulations on your first solo. you will never have to work again'.

Never any truer words.

[Ascend Charlie]

We have a "Walt" in our local golf club. When I joined, I was told, "Ah, you must know Blah Blah, he was a pilot in Vietnam."
The name didn't ring a bell, and it was some weeks before I met him. I asked about his 9 Sqn service, he said he was in Vietnam in (year). It still didn't fit, so I asked what pilot course he was on. Err..err.. I was a crewman gunner on Hueys. Twenty years later he got a private helicopter licence, and would take members for a gallop to stay current. He realised he was well and truly rumbled. But the story persisted, he had been in Vietnam on Hueys, and he is a pilot, ergo, he was an air force pilot.

I didn't pop his balloon to other people, just grinned and changed the subject.

[212man]

I did ask what types he’d flown, and he avoided that question which was what tweeked the ‘Waltometer’, which is particularly relative to the original discussion

I'm not surprised - definitely sounds fishy!

[Haraka]

Our resident pub "Walt " was a Meteor pilot who couldn't remember what marks he flew,,...........

[madhon]

What where the stages for a fleet air arm pilot before they converted onto Bucaneer/Phantom/Sea Vixen ?

[pr00ne]

madhon,

I think, as there were RN folk alongside me at various times in my training;

Aircrew selection - OASC RAF Biggin Hill.

Navy officer type selection- Admiralty interview Board somewhere in the West Country.

Officer Training - BRNC Dartmouth, which included some Chipmunk grading hours at Plymouth.

Primary, or later Elementary flying training - RAF Church Fenton or Linton On Ouse at various times on Chipmunk.

Basic Flying Training - RAF Linton On Ouse or Church Fenton at various times on Jet Provost.

Advanced Flying Training - Until 1969 at RNAS Brawdy on Hunter T8 and GA11. Then Hunter weapons at RNAS Lossiemouth.

Type conversion - RNAS Yeovilton for Sea Vixen or Phantom, RNAS Lossiemouth for Buccaneer.

All changed from 1968 onwards when the phase out of RN fixed wing flying was announced and Brawdy, and eventually Lossiemouth, closed as RN stations. After that increasing percentages of fixed wing aircrew for the Buccaneer and Phantom were provided by the RAF, and the RN only took potential helicopter pilots. Phantom and Buccaneer conversion work transferred to the RAF at Honington and Leuchars alongside the last two operational squadrons.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A bit off topic but was it true that in the 1950's the Admiralty Interview Board had questions relating to the ballroom dancing abilities of the prospective Naval Officer ?

[Haraka]

Llike the alleged 1369 quote
" My wife infoms me that this officer dances rather well"