Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters

[ORAC]

Ireland considers the purchase of air combat interceptors ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/06/28/ireland-considers-the-purchase-of-air-combat-interceptors/)

Ireland considers the purchase of air combat interceptors

The Irish Defence Forces have published its Equipment Development Plan 2020-24 document and the military is considering the purchase of air combat interceptors. The program is still at pre-planning stage and the consideration will be dependent on additional funding.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-considering-purchase-of-military-jet-aircraft-1.4289801

[BEagle]

As Ireland's need would be purely defensive and to remain clear of the political consequences of being overtly tied to the UK or US, I would have thought that the natural choice would be to lease a number of Saab Gripens from Sweden, another neutral EU Member State.

Gripen is also cleared against the A310MRTT for AAR, so perhaps Omega Air might consider taking over a couple of Luftwaffe tanker transports when they leave service in the next couple of years? I'm sure Ulick could negotiate a good deal!

[Green Flash]

I wonder where they would be based? Donegal seems obvious for one but at 4900' is the runway long enough? They'll need to build Q sheds etc etc

[Asturias56]

"In 2017, Fianna Fáil (https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_organisation=Fianna+F%C3%A1il) Senator Mark Daly (https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_person=Mark+Daly) noted in the Dáil that the public would “abhor spending €50 million or €100 million on jets that would have no real value in the long run”."

now that's what I call an optimist................ what would you get for 100 million euros??

[GeeRam]

I wonder where they would be based? Donegal seems obvious for one but at 4900' is the runway long enough? They'll need to build Q sheds etc etc

Knock would be the more logical option I would have thought.....runway is long enough, and not much there other than a airliner recycling/reclamation facility?


Can't see them spending the money though to do this though.......and I'm surprised they even feel the need to bring the subject up?

[racedo]

It is a no chance.

New Govt just formed which includes the Greens and they know they heading into a huge recession and also Brexit.

A kite is being flown and it will come crashing down as no way €1 billion will be chucked at it.

Republic of Ireland has zero enemies so why spend to enrich lots of middlemen.

[ORAC]

If they ever got over their irrational rejection of th3 idea they could join NATO and, as with Iceland, the Baltic states, Rumania etc, have a rotating allied fighter detachment holding QRA. Radar and QRA on the periphery are after all, just about the main NATO Taison d’etre. They might even get a rotating detachment of a mobile CRC.

p.s. What’s wrong with Shannon?

[meleagertoo]

Er - what's the threat?

[NumptyAussie]

Er - what's the threat?
Maybe they have descided to make a play for the Isle of Man?

[KiloB]

This is just the Air Corps (It’s not an air force) seeing a Brexit related opportunity.
The general public in Ireland is fairly ‘anti’ anything perceived as militaristic. They support the Naval Service because of fisheries protection, S&R etc, but a flight of F16s or similar would go down like a lead balloon.

[air pig]

They can't even provide night fixed wing aeromedical capability.

[ORAC]

a flight of F16s or similar would go down like a lead balloon.
Well being heavier than air, obviously......

[Legalapproach]

Asturias56

As a start
https://www.platinumfighters.com/phantom2

[Just a spotter]

While it would be great to see the Defence Forces in general and the Air Corps in particular get the funding needed to upgrade and bring it in line with other western counties, the reality is that’s a long way off.

Ireland currently spends just under 0.3% of GDP on defence (The Irish Times, Oct 2019; https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-s-defence-budget-to-exceed-1bn-in-2020-1.4043884 ) . The Army, Naval Service and Air Corps are all reported as under strength (The Irish Examiner, Aug 2019; https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/defence-forces-all-below-strength-seeking-to-fill-469-vacancies-946626.html ).

There has been spending recently to upgrade equipment, 4 new vessels for the Naval Service at around €75m per ship, arrived between 2011 & 2018 (increasing the overall fleet size by 1), and planned refitting of the Rósin class vessels at about €250,000 each, however, the service is unable to put one vessel within the fleet to sea due to crew shortages. The Air Corps has 4 PC-12’s ordered (1 has arrived) for ISTAR and support ops costing around €32m, replacing Reims/Cessna 172’s and there’s an expectation that the Casa C235’s will be replaced soon too.

We’ve recently seen Naval Service extending beyond the EEZ, supporting overseas deployment of the Army on UN missions and in the Med as part of the Italian Operation Pontus and the EU Operation Sophia. The Air Corps has also recently started small scale transport ops in support of the Army’s UN operations.

While the PC-9’s were purchased with an eye to being a step to FJ ops, there’s no support infrastructure within the IAC for that, no Air Defence radar for example and the question of where the aircraft and their support services would be based would need to be considered (not much point in them being on the east coast in Casement and having to toodle along sub-sonic from Dublin when trying to intercept a target along the Atlantic seaboard).

Unlike countires such as the UK or US, in Ireland, there's no votes in bigging up the military. The position express by meleagertoo is very commonly held.

I suspect it's unlikely to come to anything

JAS

[Easy Street]

Unlike countires such as the UK or US, in Ireland, there's no votes in bigging up the military.

I think you misstate any minor electoral significance defence *may* have in UK elections. There *might* be votes to be lost by cutting it, but there are certainly none to be gained by bigging it up. I think the distinction is important. It explains why UK defence is vulnerable to mismatches between even status-quo aspirations (protect Army numbers at 82,000; don’t cut any more fast jet squadrons; don’t mothball a carrier) and declining levels of resource spending (which the Treasury hates, preferring to spend what it absolutely has to on much higher electoral priorities like benefits and NHS staff). Topping Defence up to 2% GDP with Treasury-, industry- and voter-friendly capital investment to try to avoid the perception of ‘cuts’ is why we end up with lots of kit and not enough people to use it properly.

[Startledgrapefruit]

Er - what's the threat?
There is no threat really
Except for the Russians might invade Ireland and use it as a staging post to invade the UK like the Germans planned in the war , which is unlikely
I think most of the Irish are willing to have the UK and France defend them when required.
The exception to most Irish would be the IRA , sorry Sinn fein who hate everything thing British and would welcome everyone including the Mysterons if they thought it would further their cause.
So I just think it's one of the election time things to reassure the locals the government cares.

[Asturias56]

Asturias56

As a start
https://www.platinumfighters.com/phantom2

Yes but................. BuNu 145310 last saw use in September 1964 when the Navy retired their test aircraft. It had completed 461 hours. Never demilled, BuNu 145310 has been under restoration to airworthy condition for the past 10 years

[Busta]

I'm sure I saw a Spitfire across the border in !970 whilst flying a JP5 from Ballykelly.

[Startledgrapefruit]

I'm sure I saw a Spitfire across the border in !970 whilst flying a JP5 from Ballykelly.
Yes
They had a couple "appear" after the war
Incidentally their firs aircraft was exRAF.
Possibly stolen

[racedo]

Yes
They had a couple "appear" after the war
Incidentally their firs aircraft was exRAF.
Possibly stolen

As they were an Export market for UK Govt they why would they have "Stolen" them ?
Uk sold aircraft to them during WW2.

[Startledgrapefruit]

As they were an Export market for UK Govt they why would they have "Stolen" them ?
Uk sold aircraft to them during WW2.
It was a Martinsyde Type A Mark II biplane
Michael Collins got hold of one by agreement

[CCR]

The Irish Air Corps has a few C295 maritime surveillance aircraft coming in 2023 in addition to the other aircraft ordered. They are also looking at some more transport aircraft, maybe additional C295 or C130 aircraft. Fighter jets on the other hand is a complete waste of money with no threats to Ireland whatsoever.

[whistling turtle]

It was a Martinsyde Type A Mark II biplane
Michael Collins got hold of one by agreement

It wasn't stolen, it was purchased as a private aircraft in England in 1921/1922 in theory to fly Michael Collins and company back to Ireland in case the treaty talks broke down. It never fulfilled this purpose and eventually ended up in Dublin where it flew for a few years. AFAIK the Irish Air Corps still have the prop from it.

Ireland will only ever get fighters if there is a critical World War III in Europe impending scenario.

I served in the Irish Defence Forces years ago and it amounts to a fairly heavily armed Gendarmerie these days. The only real threat is insurgents and terrorists.

Irish politicians and voters don't have the will to support a fighter procurement...it's really as simple as that.

[whistling turtle]

Yes
They had a couple "appear" after the war
Incidentally their firs aircraft was exRAF.
Possibly stolen

The Irish Government purchased 12 Supermarine Seafires which the Air Corps operated from Gormanston from 1947 until 1955. Incidentally these were the last true fighter aircraft the Irish Air Corps operated.
Following that they also purchased 6 Spitfire T9 trainers that soldiered on in the advanced training school at Baldonnel until 1961. Most of these are still flying today by private operators.

[treadigraph]

Five of the Irish AC Spitfire Tr.IXs are flying (one is undergoing repairs at Biggin to join two of the others doing rides at Biggin), plus a Seafire III is under rebuild at Duxford.

[Jack D]

Five of the Irish AC Spitfire Tr.IXs are flying (one is undergoing repairs at Biggin to join two of the others doing rides at Biggin), plus a Seafire III is under rebuild at Duxford.

That,s interesting , took a ride in a Spitfire at Biggin about 5 yrs ago .. wonderful experience

I think , as a non politician , surely the Irish could throw a few bob towards the UK to help with the cost of protecting the skies over the Emerald Isle ? Perhaps it’s a Brexit issue ?

Surely no point wasting money on a fighter Defence system ...

[GeeRam]

The Irish Government purchased 12 Supermarine Seafires which the Air Corps operated from Gormanston from 1947 until 1955. Incidentally these were the last true fighter aircraft the Irish Air Corps operated.


One of the IAC Seafire L.III's survived as a data plate and a large box of bits and was one of the purchases of the late Charles Church back in the late 80's with a view to rebuild to airworthy.
It was ex-RX168, flown as 157 in the IAC until WFU in 1953 where it was then in use as an instructional airframe at Baldonnel until 1961, after which it was used by College of Dubin for another year before being broken up.
It's been passed around a few owners since the early 90's and was possible in store at Booker for a while, but what state its in and where its now I'm not clued up on. I'm sure Spitfire expert Peter Arnold would know though.

[Jack D]

One of the IAC Seafire L.III's survived as a data plate and a large box of bits and was one of the purchases of the late Charles Church back in the late 80's with a view to rebuild to airworthy.
It was ex-RX168, flown as 157 in the IAC until WFU in 1953 where it was then in use as an instructional airframe at Baldonnel until 1961, after which it was used by College of Dubin for another year before being broken up.
It's been passed around a few owners since the early 90's and was possible in store at Booker for a while, but what state its in and where its now I'm not clued up on. I'm sure Spitfire expert Peter Arnold would know though.

Interesting history of IAC aircraft , Personally I find it much more interesting than the debate about new fighter aircraft .
However young IAC aircrew may think differently and good luck to them !

[SirToppamHat]

I would have thought the IAC would want to start by understanding what's in their airspace before buying fighters ... or is this perhaps a status symbol for deployment on UN Ops?

As far as I know, they don't have a C2 system (in the conventional sense), nor any long-range AD radars (or other non-cooperative sensors) to feed one.

Happy to be enlightened ...

STH

[treadigraph]

RX163 is supposedly at Duxford; according to Geoff Goodall's site the remains included the wings and some fuselage parts. Initial rebuild was by Steve Atkin and Chris Warrilow with a new build fuselage (from Airframe Assemblies?) before moving on.

I went to an excellent airshow at Baldonnel in the mid-80s, most of the IAC fleet seemed to take part; I recall they had Fouga Magisters and SF-260Ws for advanced training and also a light attack role?

[Just a spotter]

There is no threat really
Except for the Russians might invade Ireland and use it as a staging post to invade the UK like the Germans planned in the war , which is unlikely
I think most of the Irish are willing to have the UK and France defend them when required.
The exception to most Irish would be the IRA , sorry Sinn fein who hate everything thing British and would welcome everyone including the Mysterons if they thought it would further their cause.
So I just think it's one of the election time things to reassure the locals the government cares.

Ulikely to be an election issue "south of the border". The Shinners are quite partial to the Russians (being as they are a very left of left socalist party ... very much in a similar ball park to Mr. Corbyn).

WRT a threat, one could always imagine a potential enemy if required ....Well, the Chinese are demonstrating that there is still a belief in the value of naval power with the construction of bases throughout the South China Sea and building of carrier capabilities, while both the Royal Navy and US Navy are rolling out new generation carriers with 5th generation aircraft.

Russia has always, possibly rightly, felt that its ability to project a global presence has been hampered by its lack of all year round ports for its navy, with winter limiting access to bases for much of its fleet. Since the time of Peter The Great, Russia has been on quest for warm water ports. The grabbing of Crimea and the naval facilities at Sevastopol underlines that, as does the alliance with Syria for the base at Tartus. Both actions show that the leadership of the county is prepared to take significant military risks and accept significant economic and political fallout to secure year round naval capabilities. The Baltic states are certianly very worred about the intentions of their neighbour.

Almost 100 years ago, as the United Kingdom was breaking up, the government of the rump of the UK negotiated a deal with the leaders of what would become The Irish Free State (the precursor to modern day Ireland) for the retention of 3 deep water naval facilities around the island of Ireland, Berehaven (one of the deepest natural inlets in the world) and Cobh in Cork along with Lough Swilly in Donegal, collectivly known as the Treaty Ports. The UK saw the strategic value of these locations for large scale naval operations. Perhaps today others look at their potential too.

Or maybe that’s just imagining a threat.

JAS

[NutLoose]

Perhaps the Textron Scorpion? it can fulfill multi roles..

https://scorpion.txtav.com/

[ivor toolbox]

Perhaps the Textron Scorpion? it can fulfill multi roles..

https://scorpion.txtav.com/

Or this one Nutty
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenia_Aermacchi_M-346_Master

Ttfn

[highflyer40]

Er - what's the threat?

You could say the same for the U.K. where is a credible threat? Who is going to invade? Get rid of the nuclear deterrent, reduce the MOD by a certain percentage and the countries finances would be golden.

Sure we have enemies, and antagonists but is there a serious threat of invasion. Of course not. You could say the same for
a many countries.

[Out Of Trim]

You could say the same for the U.K. where is a credible threat? Who is going to invade? Get rid of the nuclear deterrent, reduce the MOD by a certain percentage and the countries finances would be golden.

Sure we have enemies, and antagonists but is there a serious threat of invasion. Of course not. You could say the same for
a many countries.

highflyer40 sounds like an enemy within! :mad:

Our Defence system is an "Insurance Policy." Who knows who might become a threat now or in the future. I'm glad that we ensure that we protect our way of life come what may. :ok:

[4runner]

The UK has territory in every continent.

[dead_pan]

Perhaps the Textron Scorpion? it can fulfill multi roles..

https://scorpion.txtav.com/

But an AD fighter it ain't. Is it even supersonic?

[Lonewolf_50]

The Irish would be better off buying armed UAVs and a family of surface to air missiles for their air defense needs.
Fighter Pilots are expensive to train and maintain.
UCAV is close to becoming a reality.
Your aircraft don't need to be supersonic for air defense if all that you are doing is defending a small plot like Ireland; only the missiles need to be.

[NutLoose]

But an AD fighter it ain't. Is it even supersonic?


Agreed, but i mentioned it because it is relatively cheap, contains a lot of commercial parts, has a long life, can be utilized for maritime patrol which considering they are an island would be useful, can also double as customs and border protection operations, can provide manned, persistent surveillance and tactical command and control and finally if needed, shoot at bad guys, I cannot envisage a scenario where they will come up against bad guys in fighters, but they may meet bad guys in airliners, and it should be capable of handling those.. One would have thought flexibility would be an advantage over a pure AD aircraft. Heck you can even use it as a trainer..

[42...]

OK, Did I miss a threat briefing on a Viking or Laplander airborne invasion?

[KiloB]

OK, Did I miss a threat briefing on a Viking or Laplander airborne invasion?

No, but to be fair, prior to 2020, Ireland was being regularly over-run by hordes of baseball and golf shirt wearing people reportedly emanating from some large island located out to the west!

[ORAC]

No, but it would allow them to drop the current, mainly unadvertised, agreement whereby the RAF has overflight rights and performs the Air Policing role inside Irish airspace.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations

[Martmcc]

They can't even provide night fixed wing aeromedical capability.
Where are you getting that information - they are more than capable of providing the service.


What makes you think they were stolen - as neutral country during the war, the arrangement with the British government was that any aircraft which force landed on the island was kept and the crew returned.

[treadigraph]

Also posted in the concurrent Vampire thread but as there has been some discussion of historic Irish AC aircraft, I thought it might also be of interest here. An ex Irish AC Vampire won the Jet Class Gold at Reno in 2015; unfortunately it was badly damaged the following year in a forced landing following a canopy failure and a subsequent engine problem; apparently the wreck is still dumped at Stead Airport.

[Wig Wag]

Maybe they have descided to make a play for the Isle of Man?

The Isle of Man pays the UK around £2 million per annum for defence. Out of that they get the Red Arrows at the TT and the occasional visit from bomb disposal for WW1 ordnance washed up on the north coast from Beaufort's Dyke.

If Ireland wants AD who will train the pilots?

Simple solution is to strike a similar deal to the Isle of Man. It would be in the UK's interests too since the invasion threat from Eire is nil.

[NutLoose]

No, but it would allow them to drop the current, mainly unadvertised, agreement whereby the RAF has overflight rights and performs the Air Policing role inside Irish airspace.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations


And they get upset about those.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/irish-politician-angry-raf-not-informed-ireland-typhoons-intercepted-russian-bombers-off-coast/

[ORAC]

If Ireland wants AD who will train the pilots?
I’m sure the cousins would provide the training, and doubtless perhaps even the airframes and an exchange pilot or two, as foreign military aid......

[Asturias56]

The queue will go right around the block -a USAF fighter pilot in Ireland - they'll think they've died and gone to heaven..............

[SLXOwft]

This is an old story. The 2015 Irish Defence white paper included:

Air Combat
The existing Pilatus PC9 aircraft provide a very limited air to air and air to ground capacity and these are due for replacement in 2025. The development of a more capable air combat/intercept capability will be considered as part of the White Paper update

In the last 20 years Irish defence spending has fallen dramatically in GDP terms from 0.8% to 0.27% mainly as a reflection of increased GDP as in cash terms it has nearly doubled to EUR1.08bn. Were it a Scandinavian or Central/Eastern European country of similar size I'm sure it would have had a modern(-ish) air defence capability. Clearly Ireland's geographical position isolates its from any direct state level threat and enables it to leverage RAF QRA. However, UK military involvement in Irish air space obviously carries historical/political baggage. The acquisition of an effective radar and involvement in the management of interception by friendly air arms would seem the obvious solution. To avoid the politically unacceptable NATO label, an EU based defence arrangement would have made sense if the UK was still a member. It will be interesting to see what impact, if any, the new Fianna Fáil–Fine Gael–Green Party government has on Defence spending and priorities.

I am unfamiliar with the intricacies of Irish Defence politics but the Equipment Development Plan (EDP) is part of the first iteration of a recently adopted 6-yearly SDSR type process. The process of evaluating capability gaps appears to be eminently sensible. A conditional commitment to acquiring a Primary AD Radar was made in the 2015 Defence White Paper "Should additional funding, beyond that required to maintain existing capabilities become available, the development of a radar surveillance capability is a priority for the Air Corps." Although the White Paper stated the PC-9s were due for replacement in 2025, this isn't mentioned in the 2019 Update, however, the EDP lists upgrades between 2022-24 as being in the "Major platforms in planning" category.

Personally, I find how other countries do things interesting - apologies for the lack of brevity to those who don't.:)

The EDP is comprehensive in its scope.

The EDP is based on a rigorous prioritised examination of the range of equipment requirements to deliver on roles and associated capabilities. Prioritisation must take account of the immediacy of any operational demand as well as planning, specification, procurement, production and delivery time-frames and relevant resourcing. At any one time, there will be a balance of what is feasible within available funding and what is needed taking account of equipment life-cycles and the needs of on-going and contingent requirements.


An EDP (Equipment Development Plan) is understood to involve more than an inventory of acquisitions. It comprehends the total process associated with achieving outcomes which supply the equipment component of military capability. Thus, it is a “development” plan rather than merely a plan. This is given substance by the life-cycle process governing equipment from initial planning through to delivery into, and then sustained, in service. In all cases, the basics are identification of an existing or future capability gap; consideration of a possible appropriate equipment related response; assessment of options and determination of a recommended approach, followed by allocation of resources, procurement and acceptance into service. ... Contingent requirements also include those which are less immediately likely but which, particularly at the more extreme end of the defence spectrum, provision must be made.

Future programmes at pre planning stage

Beyond the very significant range of projects already underway or in existing planning streams, the EDP highlights others that are expected to progress in future phases of the plan. This is not an exhaustive list but gives an indication of the scale and range of programmes that will enter planning. At this stage there is not a definite commitment to pursue, or an associated time-frame, for these. These include a primary radar system, air combat interceptor, replacement of the two Coastal Patrol vessels, acquisition of diver based mine counter-measures and counter improvised explosive device equipment, field catering equipment, various vehicles such as replacement mini-buses, military trailers and an armoured ambulance as well as various surveillance and explosive ordnance disposal equipment.

A number of weapon systems are also earmarked in this category of pre-planning such as upgrade of the 105mm light artillery gun, the 60mm mortar, under-barrel Grenade Launcher M203 Replacement, RBS 70 MANPAD replacement Programme, Steyr Rifle - Mod 14 Upgrade - Under Barrel Rail and Foregrip.

[air pig]

Where are you getting that information - they are more than capable of providing the service.

No they are not as IAC/Coastguard have a problem of not having enough aircrew to comit plus the aircraft, a L45 is dual roled where as the contracted company aircraft is dedicated, and the contract is still in progress.

https://www.thejournal.ie/air-ambulance-service-hse-4056309-Jun2018/

[dead_pan]

Our Defence system is an "Insurance Policy." Who knows who might become a threat now or in the future. I'm glad that we ensure that we protect our way of life come what may. :ok:

Its a shame that that pesky virus snook under our radar and wreaked some much havoc. Its done more damage than any likely foe ever could.

I'm sure lots of questions will be asked about our defence spending in due course, given recent events. And rightly so.

[air pig]

Its a shame that that pesky virus snook under our radar and wreaked some much havoc. Its done more damage than any likely foe ever could.

I'm sure lots of questions will be asked about our defence spending in due course, given recent events. And rightly so.

The MoD may actually get more as they showed up the civilian sector for some of the bumbling incompetants they are.

[Trim Stab]

I suspect that the Irish (and EU allies) are possibly also contemplating the worst case scenario of no-deal Brexit, or the UK government refusing to implement the divorce deal obligation to enforce an EU border in the Irish sea. Quite understandable that the Irish (and EU) might not be so keen on UK continuing to look after Irish air-defence in that scenario.

This little announcement might even be a tactical sucker punch to later announce that the EU Defence Agency will form a air defence wing, and rotate various EU AIr Forces through Ireland (just as the Baltic states benefit from rotating NATO cover).

[air pig]

I suspect that the Irish (and EU allies) are possibly also contemplating the worst case scenario of no-deal Brexit, or the UK government refusing to implement the divorce deal obligation to enforce an EU border in the Irish sea. Quite understandable that the Irish (and EU) might not be so keen on UK continuing to look after Irish air-defence in that scenario.

This little announcement might even be a tactical sucker punch to later announce that the EU Defence Agency will form a air defence wing, and rotate various EU AIr Forces through Ireland (just as the Baltic states benefit from rotating NATO cover).

Unless they have suitable radar cover and a C3 system, is that idea going to work

[teeteringhead]

and rotate various EU AIr Forces through Ireland Could be fun. One recalls when LFA 19 (?) was set up to legalise low flying in the Province. On day one a Belgique 104 (?) who clearly hadn't read the small print (NI based aircraft only) tried to book in.

We should have let him......

[OJ 72]

'Could be fun. One recalls when LFA 19 (?) was set up to legalise low flying in the Province. On day one a Belgique 104 (?) who clearly hadn't read the small print (NI based aircraft only) tried to book in.'

When I was at Aldergrove, there was a story doing the rounds (probably apocryphal) that a pair of German Tornadoes managed not only to book into LFA 19, but actually did a spot of low flying through the Province!! Now that would have made Gerry Adams and his 'chums' spill their Guinness!!

[Trim Stab]

Unless they have suitable radar cover and a C3 system, is that idea going to work

That’ll be announced later.. When you have the ERG and even Gove claiming that it will be “impossible” to enforce the EU border in the Irish sea, you can bet the EU planners will be making a plan to ensure that it is...

They won’t make any precipitate or bellicose announcements, which is why I think this Irish announcement is closely coordinated with EU. The divorce deal is an international treaty and EU will be fully authorised to enforce it by UN and even US (given heavy Irish support in Congress).

[air pig]

That’ll be announced later.. When you have the ERG and even Gove claiming that it will be “impossible” to enforce the EU border in the Irish sea, you can bet the EU planners will be making a plan to ensure that it is...

They won’t make any precipitate or bellicose announcements, which is why I think this Irish announcement is closely coordinated with EU. The divorce deal is an international treaty and EU will be fully authorised to enforce it by UN and even US (given heavy Irish support in Congress).

Eu planners and a plan then enforcement. Look at the C-19 response by the eussr and then there is there so-called bail out plan and possible debt mutualisation. Taking them months to do anything.

[teeteringhead]

And if there were "military issues" between (non-NATO) Eire and (NATO) UK, would not Article 5 apply???

[NutLoose]

Speaking of the Eire Fuga’s, there is an excellent film on Netfix about their ill fated U.N. mission in Africa, more here..

https://time.com/4408017/the-siege-of-jadotville-the-true-story-netflix-film/


A very good film, poor buggers really got stitched up and then snubbed at home through no fault of their own and some stirringly brave defence against overwhelming odds.

[Trim Stab]

NI is part of NATO too, as part of UK. UK is obliged under international treaty to respect the EU customs border down the Irish sea, so if they refused to respect the treaty they would be in breach of international law. I don’t think NATO would want to be involved.

Gove’s recent remarks were staggeringly irresponsible, and you can’t blame the Irish (and EU) if they are indeed making contingency plans. They would be perfectly entitled to enforce the treaty, and the majority of NI (not all albeit..) would support them.

[unmanned_droid]

Speaking of the Eire Fuga’s, there is an excellent film on Netfix about their ill fated U.N. mission in Africa, more here..

https://time.com/4408017/the-siege-of-jadotville-the-true-story-netflix-film/


A very good film, poor buggers really got stitched up and then snubbed at home through no fault of their own and some stirringly brave defence against overwhelming odds.

I thought the film was very good, and the real life events absolutely appalling.

[West Coast]

I’m sure the cousins would provide the training, and doubtless perhaps even the airframes and an exchange pilot or two, as foreign military aid......


Great, another underfunded euro land nation sucking off the US govt defense teet. Seems to be a growth industry, perhaps the Irish should consult with the Germans.

[Trim Stab]

Great, another underfunded euro land nation sucking off the US govt defense teet. Seems to be a growth industry, perhaps the Irish should consult with the Germans.

Would agree that the abdication of the US from any form of global leadership is another reason Ireland is probably formulating its defence policy very closely with the EU at the moment (or Germany, if you insist on nationalism).

[West Coast]

Sorry, can't hold my tax dollar hostage to the ole abdication arguement. Maybe some who want that position, not me however.

[CCR]

Ireland is a neutral country and will not be wasting a billion euro on fighter jets. Joining NATO is a non runner. There is no threat to Ireland whatsoever and public opinion has always been in favour of remaining neutral rather than joining NATO. With the Greens now in power, it's more likely the Irish government would spend another billion on the overseas development aid budget than giving a billion euro to a foreign military supplier to buy fighter jets. As Elon Musk says, manned fighter jets will be redundant in the not too distant future. UAV's are the future.

[Bob Viking]

It’s interesting that you quote Elon Musk. The well known expert in military doctrine and capability.

I’m not saying you’re wrong (although you need to define the term ‘near future’) but surely you could have found someone with more military credentials to cite.

BV

[GeeRam]

It’s interesting that you quote Elon Musk. The well known expert in military doctrine and capability.

I’m not saying you’re wrong (although you need to define the term ‘near future’) but surely you could have found someone with more military credentials to cite.

BV

Indeed. Musk is a publicity seeking nerd with very questionable ethics......and zero military background.

And they've been saying manned aircraft are not the future since the infamous Sandys Defense White Paper in the 1957.......and guess what, over 60 years later, and we're still not there yet....and I suspect will never be there entirely. UAV's will continue to be an important and more used tool.....but not the only tool.

[42...]

The queue will go right around the block -a USAF fighter pilot in Ireland - they'll think they've died and gone to heaven..............
We call that Lakenheath.

[bridgets boy]

Does anyone know the amount of Air-Policing that goes on in Ireland, compared to the GB? Having so much traffic, in 'normal' times, coming off the Atlantic, is there not a case for a limited peacetime capability? If you took the proportion of Air-Policing that the UK Air Defence force carries out in a year (not sure if non-transponding Russian aircraft are included), and scaled it for the amount of traffic in Ireland's airspace, could a small capability be justified? What kind of future incident would generate the need?

[Fonsini]

A single Tranche 3A Typhoon costs €90m, the entire Irish military budget for 2020 is only €780m. A handful of AMARC F-16s could probably be had from the US for the cost of refurbishment and a secret nod regarding the use of Irish bases for transit flights etc. It all seems unlikely though, the Irish military situation is similar to New Zealand’s in many ways (limited budget, minimal need for fighters, military ally in close proximity etc).

[dead_pan]

Great, another underfunded euro land nation sucking off the US govt defense teet. Seems to be a growth industry, perhaps the Irish should consult with the Germans.

Yawn. Then pull the plug and be done with it.

[Vortex Hoop]

How would any Irish air station be suitable for fast jets?

All their runways are only 60 ft long...and a mile wide! :)

[dead_pan]

How would any Irish air station be suitable for fast jets?

All their runways are only 60 ft long...and a mile wide! :)

F-35B it is then...

[ORAC]

You've just got to watch that left roll just after launch......

https://youtu.be/75qnxMd1YSY

[dead_pan]

Bejesus holy Mary mother of God! All that smoke!

Why we're they all laughing at the end of the clip? "Mein Gott It actually worked!!"

[NutLoose]

As it's sitting on a launch rail, it seems odd to have the gear down and dangling in the wind, surely it would have been less workload and drag if they had it up during launch, after all one couldn't see him putting it down anywhere straight ahead if the launch went wrong.

[ORAC]

From elsewhere:

"With the landing gear down, full aileron travel (20°) is available...... With landing gear up, the aileron throw is only 10°.

With landing gear up that left roll after launch might have been much more interesting....

[treadigraph]

...which is where the original F-104 ejection system might have been more useful!

[air pig]

You've just got to watch that left roll just after launch......

https://youtu.be/75qnxMd1YSY


Ahhhh, our new V1 works.

[NutLoose]

From elsewhere:

"With the landing gear down, full aileron travel (20°) is available...... With landing gear up, the aileron throw is only 10°.

With landing gear up that left roll after launch might have been much more interesting....


Ahh that explains this ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyBDEG9dg-Q

[West Coast]

Yawn. Then pull the plug and be done with it.

If I had the magic wand, I would.

[ORAC]

Ahh that explains this https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif
Ahhh, the average sortie duration for the F-104 I believe....

[Asturias56]

" What kind of future incident would generate the need?"

Lets face it any spending on Irish defence should be

1. Security services

2. fishing patrols
......................................

999. fast jets

[exhorder]

Ahhh, the average sortie duration for the F-104 I believe....

Approximately double that of the Frightning then.




Sorry, had to ;)

[dead_pan]

Ahhh, the average sortie duration for the F-104 I believe....

The wing tip tanks extended this to a whole circuit if I recall. Amazing stuff.

[NickPilot]

Model I built recently...


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/yx99dzdl_506ae01e8fa2a5825c8a6c4ae184a8dd985a97de.jpg

[SLXOwft]

NickPilot's model reminded me of a suggestion in the Irish Examiner (at the time of the 2015 white paper) that the Irish Government could look at the (then) recently retired RoKAF Hawk mk.67s (T-59s)The Government doesn’t have to buy Typhoons like the ones scrambled by the British to intercept the Russian bombers to be effective, especially as they cost over €70m each. Jets are available much cheaper.

If the Government wants to penny-pinch, it could buy the Czech-made Aero L159 or ex-Korean AF BAE Hawks.

The L159 is a subsonic aircraft with similar speed to an airliner, but, critically, it can go much higher than commercial aircraft, is faster than the Russian TU95, and has an integrated radar.

If we wanted something a bit more prestigious, the KAIT50-Golden Eagle fighters could be picked up for €20m each.

However, it’s estimated in some military circles that an €80m investment in the air corps would be sufficient to provide the force with proper jets and radar defence capabilities.

For this, it could get six jets, all auxiliary equipment, support services, armaments, and proper ground radar capabilities.

From How much to protect skies above Ireland? Irish Examiner 11FEB2015

[DAVPILOT2]

Its a complete non-starter.

[ORAC]

Its a complete non-starter.
I would suggest AVPIN......

[Declan275]

The problem with any of the light strike type solutions is that Ireland has two different requirements from a fighter.

One is for overland/East Coast QRA which occasionally has to CAP a major event. A FA50 style machine could do this reasonably well.

The second requirement is for a West Coast/over the Atlantic QRA. Here you’re talking about a different beast altogether as an air policing fighter will be required to get airborne, travel to intercept ( for example) a Tu 142 and squawk beside it for a while until it does whatever it is they do over the Porcupine Banks and goes away. In terms of a Cold War analogy, you need a Lightning on the east coast and a Mig 31 on the West.

Obviously, finances will dictate a one type fleet. They’ll also dictate what an acceptable cost per hour will look like, so a compromise will almost certainly keep leading you back to a Gripen. Now start talking about a tanker, primary radar, maybe an Erieye or two...

In any case, the big shark to jump isn’t ‘Ireland buys a fighter’ , it’s trying to retain the pilots and techs that are there now. Even in the current market, a failure to maintain crew levels will scupper the best plans for the future.

[SLXOwft]

The stated need is to replace the PC-9Ms in the CAS (COIN?) role with a possible intercept capability added on. A Bear or Backfire isn't going to materialise near / in Irish airspace without having been followed for a long time, I would have thought the same would apply to a hijacked civilian aircraft - it is in everyone's interest to pass the information on to those who can act on it. We aren't talking about finding an LO threat. If the Irish government goes down this road, aren't they likely to the throw the money at a ground radar capable of being used for GCI to visual range using a fairly basic (no AI radar) aircraft capable of carrying short range AAMs and a cannon (with hardpoints for mudmoving ordnance)? Sounds a bit like a modern version of the Hawk T1A "experiment" (without F-4s or F.3s to lead them :O) or a Hawk 200 successor if you did want AI radar. I am aware a certain TD reacted strongly to RAF QRA aircraft operating in Irish airspace - allegedly without first informing the Irish (ATC?) authorities so Typhoons handing over to a less capable aircraft and shadowing from outside Irish airspace would perhaps have political mileage.

However, Declan275 has probably hit the nail on the head.

[Asturias56]

well if you are looking at a one n blue moon interception job you don't need more than a handful of aircraft - a couple available (so maybe 6-8 in total) would do

[Just This Once...]

...said someone with no experience or professional knowledge whatsoever. But still, he said something with authority on the internet.

[West Coast]

...said someone with no experience or professional knowledge whatsoever. But still, he said something with authority on the internet.

Nailed it.

[racedo]

The second requirement is for a West Coast/over the Atlantic QRA. Here you’re talking about a different beast altogether as an air policing fighter will be required to get airborne, travel to intercept ( for example) a Tu 142 and squawk beside it for a while until it does whatever it is they do over the Porcupine Banks and goes away. In terms of a Cold War analogy, you need a Lightning on the east coast and a Mig 31 on the West.


On what basis ? A Tu 142 has every right to fly off Ireland's coast as long it does not breach Irish borders, just like any other aircraft.

Just like it has every right to fly off US coasts and just like US Aircraft have every right fly off Russian air space.

Paying millions for a QRA will be for what purpose ? Joining Nato air forces going up to take photos and wave ?

[Declan275]

On what basis ? A Tu 142 has every right to fly off Ireland's coast as long it does not breach Irish borders, just like any other aircraft. My own view on the whole argument for an interceptor is that it’s about air policing rather than old school ‘they shall not pass’ stuff. In this example, an Irish jet would replace the RAF one that goes up towards a non squawking, non talking aircraft in Shannon FIR and gives the ‘ aircraft at position xxx, height xxx, heading xxx please say your intentions’ spiel that you occasionally hear on VHF so that everyone else can avoid them.

There’s also the airliner lost comms/ damage assessment type of flight that are rarer. As the service to the state is currently provided by the RAF on a the basis of a bilateral agreement with the UK, de facto, there is a recognised need for it at Govt level. The question is do we want to have sovereign control over it like nearly everyone else.

[racedo]

My own view on the whole argument for an interceptor is that it’s about air policing rather than old school ‘they shall not pass’ stuff. In this example, an Irish jet would replace the RAF one that goes up towards a non squawking, non talking aircraft in Shannon FIR and gives the ‘ aircraft at position xxx, height xxx, heading xxx please say your intentions’ spiel that you occasionally hear on VHF so that everyone else can avoid them.

There’s also the airliner lost coms/ damage assessment type of flight that are rarer. As the service to the state is currently provided by the RAF on a the basis of a bilateral agreement with the UK, de facto, there is a recognised need for it at Govt level. The question is do we want to have sovereign control over it like nearly everyone else. Sovereign control of what ? International Airspace !!!!!

[Declan275]

Sovereign control of what ? International Airspace !!!!!
Not the airspace, just the aircraft providing the service.

[Just This Once...]

On what basis ? A Tu 142 has every right to fly off Ireland's coast as long it does not breach Irish borders, just like any other aircraft.


To aid genuine followers of the forum - no such blanket right exists and flight in international airspace is not a random uncontrolled free-for-all. The poster above is a provocateur with no connection to military aviation and as such, he will say things that are not true for his own reasons.

The rules and procedures for international airspace have, unsurprisingly, rules and procedures in order to ensure safety for all users. The repeated concern with Russian activities is that they do not follow the international rules and procedures for the safe transit of international airspace; so triggering a QRA response and even rerouting of civilian traffic.

The Russian activities are designed to be an irritant by deliberately operating in an unsafe manner, against the international treaties that it is a signatory of.

[DHC4]

There is no threat really
Except for the Russians might invade Ireland and use it as a staging post to invade the UK like the Germans planned in the war , which is unlikely
I think most of the Irish are willing to have the UK and France defend them when required.
The exception to most Irish would be the IRA , sorry Sinn fein who hate everything thing British and would welcome everyone including the Mysterons if they thought it would further their cause.
So I just think it's one of the election time things to reassure the locals the government cares.

Sinn Fein hate everything British, are you basing that on fact or is this just your own thoughts.

[OJ 72]

DHC4 to Startledgrapefruit - 'Sinn Fein hate everything British, are you basing that on fact or is this just your own thoughts.'

To put it into perspective...having lived and operated in Northern Ireland for a significant proportion of my life you would probably expect me to instinctively agree with that statement.

However, having been awarded a Masters Degree (MLitt) in Irish Politics, my Professor (and Dir Defence Studies (RAF) who sponsored me) instilled in me the need for objectivity. So I genuinely always try to take the non-partisan view. Which in some circles in NI doesn't necessarily go down well.

Nevertheless I still agree with the statement. Sinn Fein, as a political movement, find anything to do with the British Government, Military and even their fellow citizens who hold a different passport to them, totally anathema.

[She said]

To aid genuine followers of the forum - no such blanket right exists and flight in international airspace is not a random uncontrolled free-for-all. The poster above is a provocateur with no connection to military aviation and as such, he will say things that are not true for his own reasons.

The rules and procedures for international airspace have, unsurprisingly, rules and procedures in order to ensure safety for all users. The repeated concern with Russian activities is that they do not follow the international rules and procedures for the safe transit of international airspace; so triggering a QRA response and even rerouting of civilian traffic.

The Russian activities are designed to be an irritant by deliberately operating in an unsafe manner, against the international treaties that it is a signatory of.

A 'blanket right' pretty much does exist for State (military, police, coastguard) aircraft to operate largely as they see fit outwith territorial limits. Aircraft falling within this category are under no obligation to obey ICAO SARPS. They are required to operate with 'due regard' for the safety of civilian traffic but (I believe) the operating state can decide how they meet this criteria.

[Just a spotter]

DHC4 to Startledgrapefruit - 'Sinn Fein hate everything British, are you basing that on fact or is this just your own thoughts.'

To put it into perspective...having lived and operated in Northern Ireland for a significant proportion of my life you would probably expect me to instinctively agree with that statement.

However, having been awarded a Masters Degree (MLitt) in Irish Politics, my Professor (and Dir Defence Studies (RAF) who sponsored me) instilled in me the need for objectivity. So I genuinely always try to take the non-partisan view. Which in some circles in NI doesn't necessarily go down well.

Nevertheless I still agree with the statement. Sinn Fein, as a political movement, find anything to do with the British Government, Military and even their fellow citizens who hold a different passport to them, totally anathema.It’s also worth reiterating for those not familiar with the true nature of Sinn Féin, that they have no particular love for the democratic institutions of what they refer to as “the 26 counties”. While claiming to be a nationalist party, they pledge no fidelity to the State or its constitution and continue to strive for a “socialist republic”(their words) on the Island … an aim that their comrades in balaclavas were all too willing to murder citizens, members of the defence forces and Gardaí of this State to bring about.

Now, WRT the purpose of this thread … just who would benefit from a socialist state on the western edge of Europe?

JAS

[Declan275]

I’d recommend Lt Col Dan Harvey (Ret’d) book Soldiering Against Subversion for anyone who thinks that a Sinn Fein government might address any Defence Forces issues. TL/DR - won’t happen.

In the meantime, we have this to worry about. Unfortunately it puts interceptors, new transport aircraft or even the future replacement of the heli fleet under pressure if the attempts to keep people fail.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/recruitment-plan-for-defence-forces-allowed-to-fail-1.4296913

[Pontius Navigator]

No, but it would allow them to drop the current, mainly unadvertised, agreement whereby the RAF has overflight rights and performs the Air Policing role inside Irish airspace.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations

Hurrah, I was waiting for someone to come up with air policing. There are many reasons for having interceptors in addition shooting down aircraft with hostile intent. If you are intercepting an errant civilian aircraft you probably won't need a primary radar system.

[Pontius Navigator]

My own view on the whole argument for an interceptor is that it’s about air policing rather than old school ‘they shall not pass’ stuff. In this example, an Irish jet would replace the RAF one that goes up towards a non squawking, non talking aircraft in Shannon FIR and gives the ‘ aircraft at position xxx, height xxx, heading xxx please say your intentions’ spiel that you occasionally hear on VHF so that everyone else can avoid them.

There’s also the airliner lost comms/ damage assessment type of flight that are rarer. As the service to the state is currently provided by the RAF on a the basis of a bilateral agreement with the UK, de facto, there is a recognised need for it at Govt level. The question is do we want to have sovereign control over it like nearly everyone else.
Declan, exactly. The only issue I have with what you say is based on my ignorance of the facts. You mention a non-squawking aircraft. That predicates a primary radar system. Does Ireland possess such a system?
Our aviation authorities do possess state of the art secondary radar, but this type of system can only track 'compliant' aircraft who leave their transponders switched on. ... In such circumstances, Ireland is one of the only states in the European Union which cannot 'see' into its airspace by way of primary radar.15 Aug 2016Tom Clonan: Why it's time to have an open and honest debate ... (https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/ireland-neutrality-uk-airspace-2924004-Aug2016/#:~:text=Our%20aviation%20authorities%20do%20possess,leave%2 0their%20transponders%20switched%20on.&text=In%20such%20circumstances%2C%20Ireland%20is,by%20way%20 of%20primary%20radar.)

[Declan275]

Declan, exactly. The only issue I have with what you say is based on my ignorance of the facts. You mention a non-squawking aircraft. That predicates a primary radar system. Does Ireland possess such a system?


No, unfortunately all the main infrastructure would have to be purchased in one go. As a package, it starts to get expensive quickly!

It’s the big problem with building a capability from scratch. At the very least, you have to shell out for radar, aircraft, hangerage, upgraded weapons storage etc at the same time, or over the same period. If you have an existing system in place, or assets with overlapping capabilities you can avoid much of that, but you would’ve had to start buying modern equipment fifty years ago for that to help now.

[Pontius Navigator]

Declan, affordability is obviously an issue but a package buy has the attraction that it should all work together as a package. Until you have seen what system integration to legacy systems costs you would forget about gradual acquisition.

[Declan275]

Well, I suppose necessity will look after that seeing as it’s a blank page at the moment. It would also depend on any tender being written with that integrated approach in mind, otherwise you just get a selection of cheapest offers in each category.

[ORAC]

Worth reading the entire thread.....

https://twitter.com/marycmurphy/status/1285134922131349504?s=21

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/not-enough-military-pilots-to-maintain-airborne-security-pp0rlkk0q

‘Not enough military pilots’ to maintain airborne security

The Department of Defence has been told that the number of pilots available in the Air Corps is below the “critical mass” needed for airborne security, new records show.

Eight Irish pilots are being trained with the US military in Alabama, as the Defence Forces warned that premature retirements from the Air Corps had reached a “critical level”.

A record released under a freedom of information request revealed that a business case prepared for the Department of Defence said the number of pilots available in the Air Corps had fallen below “the critical mass required to sustain the provision of airborne defence and security operations”.

The record — which was released with redactions for security reasons — warns that “immediate remedial action” was required to rebuild available manpower. It said that outsourced training would be crucial “to restore the provision of adequate airborne defence and security services”.

The defence forces and the Department of Defence declined to confirm how much the training was going to cost the taxpayer. However, internal records from the department give an estimate of €650,000 to €850,000 for the training of four pilots.

The business case said that the Air Corps had been hit by a wave of “premature voluntary retirements”, including the short-notice departure of one senior pilot. It said that there was a global shortage of pilots, and that these were being felt particularly “acutely” in military air forces. “The consequence of this is that there is very limited, if any, military pilot training capacity in external air terms,” it said.

It added that the Air Corps had looked at alternative training options in UK joint military and civilian flight schools, but that there was no availability due to “national shortages” there. The business case said that training for specific military skills such as formation flying, low-level flight operations, tactical flying, and air firing, meant that market options were limited.

The Air Corps had engaged with the military in the UK and the US “at a very senior level” to discuss training options. “Only the US has indicated that they have the capacity to deal with a military pilot training request,” the document read.

The business case provided further background on just how short-handed the Air Corps had become, with retirements leaving them at a “culmination point”. Staffing levels of experienced pilots, especially helicopter commanders, were below critical mass, which had a knock-on effect on training.

It added: “Following a research visit to the US Army at Fort Rucker, Alabama to assess the viability of helicopter training, the US have offered military pilot training capacity. The training aircraft being offered are similar to [our] aircraft in terms of size, performance, and training output; necessitating minimal ‘differences’ on return … while maintaining training standards and timelines.”

The defence forces also prepared a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats analysis on the move. It said that it would alleviate pressures on the Air Corps, and increase available resources. However, it added that the Air Corps would no longer have “direct and exclusive supervision” of trainees and that the costs involved were “unavoidable”.

Separately, Department of Defence records also warned of “organisational risk” if steps were not taken to manage the loss of experienced pilots.

A strategic review marked “confidential” stated: “Such a training surge, which is envisaged will last four years, would reduce the overall training pressures on the flying training school; shorten Air Corps cadetships to two years, qualify more pilot officers sooner, and mitigate training pressures risk.”

Asked for comment on the records, the defence forces said that they had nothing to add.

[Asturias56]

"The business case said that the Air Corps had been hit by a wave of “premature voluntary retirements”, including the short-notice departure of one senior pilot. It said that there was a global shortage of pilots, and that these were being felt particularly “acutely” in military air forces. "

That sounds like an appreciation done about a year ago = there is now no shortage of pilots anywhere.......................... except in the air

[tucumseh]

I used to hate the term 'business case'. In the RN it was an Admiralty Board Submission, making it quite clear who was approving it.

[Hot 'n' High]

Declan, exactly. The only issue I have with what you say is based on my ignorance of the facts. You mention a non-squawking aircraft. That predicates a primary radar system. Does Ireland possess such a system?


Declan275, re your Post #109, do you mean that, effectively, Ireland has no "Boulmer" organisation rather than no Primary Radars? I'z confused (again)!!!!!! I'm not including the aviating part of AD/AP, rather my ???? relates just to the Radar side.

According to the IAA, they do have Primary Radar https://www.iaa.ie/air-traffic-management/technology/surveillance-radar which, presumably, also feeds into Defence somehow - even just by phone from the IAA would count. Of course, what they don't say is the range of Primary cover but, by implication, it provides good cover out to "x" km. The UK suffers the same lack of Primary reach, hence Saxa Vord being reopened as a RRH in 2018 to provide additional cover up North.

There was also a report back in 2015 (OK, a newspaper article behind a paywall and I've not seen the actual white paper) which talks about the procurement of new Radars for Irish AD specifically. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/euro10m-radar-goes-to-the-front-line-of-military-shopping-list-xfbvzt7bv0b which notes they will be used "to keep track of covert aircraft such as the two Russian TU-95s which flew across Irish-controlled international airspace in January [2015]"

Not sure if the radars mentioned by the IAA are the same as these or if, indeed, the white paper ever gained traction. Maybe it refers to additional cover over and above that mentioned in the IAA link ....... maybe even an OTHR to cover out to 30W? :p Some NATS trials were conducted years ago from Blakehill Farm in the UK looking at the potential for OTHR coverage out over Ireland into the deep Atlantic so the concept's not new.

Anyway, just from my understanding - so I may need to be corrected!!! :ok: H 'n' H

[ex-fast-jets]

With Biden as PotUS, perhaps a forward based USAF in Ireland? That might appeal to many.

Just a thought..............

[Green Flash]

Do a celtic Baltic/Iceland?? Make Shannon an FOB for Lakenheaths Eagles, maybe a P8 or two as well?

[pr00ne]

Green Flash,

Baltic/Iceland all happen because they are full members of NATO. Ireland is not.

tucumseh,

You cannot spend the tax payers money anywhere in Government without an outline Business case (OBC) followed up by a fully specced business case (FBC) that has been peer reviewed, examined for justification and value for money, confirmed as in budget, and in full accordance with fiscal approach and policy as your justification to spend money. And quite rightly so.

[Hot 'n' High]

You cannot spend the tax payers money anywhere in Government without an outline Business case (OBC) followed up by a fully specced business case (FBC) that has been peer reviewed, examined for justification and value for money, confirmed as in budget, and in full accordance with fiscal approach and policy as your justification to spend money. And quite rightly so.

pr00ne, I suspect you and Tuc are refering to the same basic process - just by a different name - and maybe from different eras and/or areas. I used "Business Cases" myself in the 90's, and weren't there things called "Alternative Assumptions" ahead of that delightful bunfight called the latest "LTC round"? TBH, I've forgotten how it all hung together - quite possibly as it wasn't entirely clear to me at the time!!!!!

I do recall one Project I was managing (I was working remotely with my own little Team based on the other side of the country from HQ) and, each month, I'd submit a fairly detailed picture of actual spend vs planned spend and an updated FOO. Eventually, the phone rang and the PA to the Finance bod wanted to speak to me.

"H 'n' H, we are all just wondering but why do you keep on sending in these Financial Progress Reports?". "Coz Finance bod told me to!". "Ahhhhhhh, OK. We just thought it a bit odd .... as you are the only one who seems to have even the vaguest clue as to how much they are spending! No-one else from here even sends them in any more!".

MoD finance at it's best!!!! :E

[Declan275]

Hello all,

Unfortunately the White Paper mentioned is notorious in Irish military circles. Less than half the projects have been started, let alone finished. I’ll say that the military side of the house have been keen to drive these things along and leave it at that.

Primary radar exists in terms of civilian airports, but it lacks the long range coverage to look right out there. Connaught and Kerry airports both take feeds from the primary radar in Shannon for example.

Biden as POTUS or not, I’m not sure how the wider public would take to a permanent US deployment or indeed any other under a NATO guise. Even PFP is a stretch for some. Some sort of EUFOR mission, maybe ( even if it was the same people, and still a big maybe!), but proving the need politically would still be the first requirement.

There’s a bit of a conversation going on Twitter at the moment if you look for @IDFOC

Otherwise, the whole underlying, bottom layer of the pyramid is still personnel retention. Post Covid, the recent re-entry stream will likely dry up and the need to look at Ts and Cs for all ranks will determine whether or not any capability can be developed.

Dec

[Martin the Martian]

A global shortage of pilots?

On which planet?

[Hot 'n' High]

...... Unfortunately the White Paper mentioned is notorious in Irish military circles. Less than half the projects have been started, let alone finished. I’ll say that the military side of the house have been keen to drive these things along and leave it at that. .......

Cheers Dec, all copied and understood! A sadly familiar tale I suspect the world over....... I recall some bunfights over Naval AEW (or lack of it) when the last but one Ark Royal went in '78. History shows what happened next!!! Roll out the "Bag" - even if too late to help "Down South"!!!!

[ORAC]

Perhaps narrow that to a global shortage of Irish* pilots with military fixed wing or rotary experience.

* Citizens of other EU/EEA nations can apply though I am unsure of the language requirements. Are applicants required to hold a qualification in Gaelic?

Let me answer my own question

https://www.military.ie/en/careers/air-corps-careers/what-is-an-air-corps-cadet-pilot/

A candidate’s educational qualifications must include a minimum of:....

(ii) Irish. NUI matriculation exemptions apply.”.....

[Declan275]

Perhaps narrow that to a global shortage of Irish* pilots with military fixed wing or rotary experience.

* Citizens of other EU/EEA nations can apply though I am unsure of the language requirements. Are applicants required to hold a qualification in Gaelic?

It’s an odd one, to have the minimum educational requirements you need to have a Leaving Cert ( end of secondary school ) which de facto includes Irish. If however, you can demonstrate you didn’t receive primary level Irish ( if you’re an EU citizen, of Irish descent or otherwise), you get a waiver on that.

All foot drill orders are however given in Irish, but you are usually helped along by the NCOS with your motivation to pick up a few words...

The global shortage statement probably dates from before the full impact of Covid 19 hit. Nevertheless, the re-entries of late are all on limited time contracts ( as far as I know anyway). Once the world recovers, the same underlying issues will remain to be solved in some way.

It would seem like a due reward to all inside the gates at Bal to have long term solutions lined up by then.

[pr00ne]

pr00ne, I suspect you and Tuc are refering to the same basic process - just by a different name - and maybe from different eras and/or areas. I used "Business Cases" myself in the 90's, and weren't there things called "Alternative Assumptions" ahead of that delightful bunfight called the latest "LTC round"? TBH, I've forgotten how it all hung together - quite possibly as it wasn't entirely clear to me at the time!!!!!

I do recall one Project I was managing (I was working remotely with my own little Team based on the other side of the country from HQ) and, each month, I'd submit a fairly detailed picture of actual spend vs planned spend and an updated FOO. Eventually, the phone rang and the PA to the Finance bod wanted to speak to me.

"H 'n' H, we are all just wondering but why do you keep on sending in these Financial Progress Reports?". "Coz Finance bod told me to!". "Ahhhhhhh, OK. We just thought it a bit odd .... as you are the only one who seems to have even the vaguest clue as to how much they are spending! No-one else from here even sends them in any more!".

MoD finance at it's best!!!! :E


Hot 'n' High,

My experience is very current, as in about 6 hours ago! So the process I described is what is used now.

[Finningley Boy]

I don't know if this point has been raised before, but why now? Why after all these decades of the Cold War and the three decades since which has seen Russia, for example, become a far less significant military threat, to albeit becoming one again, why is Ireland concerned about fielding a standing force of Fighter aircraft now?

FB

[Hot 'n' High]

Hot 'n' High, My experience is very current, as in about 6 hours ago! So the process I described is what is used now.

Thankfully mine isn't nearly as up to date as now long behind me! :ok:

I suspect Tuc and I are just remembering processes/terminology from a while ago. But I suspect the concept was the same back then as it is now - namely, due process to obtain funds iaw the rules/regs/naming conventions in use at the time - that's what I meant! Even I can't ever remember an "Admiralty Board Submission" - but, again, guess it depended which Vote it came from and a lot of my stuff came via the RAF - despite the colour of my Uniform! An ABS very likely included what was effectively a "Business Case" (i.e. costed justification) as part of the submission - but was probably called something else. The rigour would have been, if not exactly the same, certainly as required by our "Lords and Masters" at that time to justify a bid for funding. That element has always been there. Anyway, we still digress - my fault!!!!

[Declan275]

I don't know if this point has been raised before, but why now? Why after all these decades of the Cold War and the three decades since which has seen Russia, for example, become a far less significant military threat, to albeit becoming one again, why is Ireland concerned about fielding a standing force of Fighter aircraft now?

FB

I think the ‘why now’ is the realisation that there’s more to Defence than the land component! Things have , understandably, always been very focused on domestic security in the past which more or less meant Army units with small standing detachments of Allouete IIIs. The other main focus for decades was on wherever the deployed overseas Bn of the day was.

What you see now is the public attention starting on the issues surrounding pay, conditions and retention, and the discussion evolving from there.

You also now have a much wider online access to decision makers, which further socialises the idea ( I hate that term, but there you go...). As a last point, whereas previously politicians would have seen ‘there’s no votes in Defence’, there’s now an ex ARW commandant in the Dail.

TL/DR, lots of bits of different things mean nows a good time to at least bring it up.

[racedo]

I don't know if this point has been raised before, but why now? Why after all these decades of the Cold War and the three decades since which has seen Russia, for example, become a far less significant military threat, to albeit becoming one again, why is Ireland concerned about fielding a standing force of Fighter aircraft now?

FB


Ireland isn't, just it is a hobby horse for some. It has zero chance of happening.

There are quite a number of Irish politicians who will happily go to jail for damaging US aircraft at Shannon. Any US based aircraft would be targeted on a similar basis. There is no upside for the US here as US personnel shooting unarmed Irish protestors attacking USAF aircraft is a lose lose situation.

In 10 years time there will still be people pushing the idea but it still will not be happening.

[Finningley Boy]

Declan and Racedo,

That explains, I suppose, why so many folk from the Republic end up in the UK armed forces. Despite claims to the contrary, I can see an independent Scotland ending up in a similar situation. What I do find interesting is the idea of home grown resentment at the presence of any USAF aircraft pitching up. What price the American love of having Irish ancestry then?

FB

[chopper2004]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/not-enough-military-pilots-to-maintain-airborne-security-pp0rlkk0q

‘Not enough military pilots’ to maintain airborne security

The Department of Defence has been told that the number of pilots available in the Air Corps is below the “critical mass” needed for airborne security, new records show.

Eight Irish pilots are being trained with the US military in Alabama, as the Defence Forces warned that premature retirements from the Air Corps had reached a “critical level”.

A record released under a freedom of information request revealed that a business case prepared for the Department of Defence said the number of pilots available in the Air Corps had fallen below “the critical mass required to sustain the provision of airborne defence and security operations”.

The record — which was released with redactions for security reasons — warns that “immediate remedial action” was required to rebuild available manpower. It said that outsourced training would be crucial “to restore the provision of adequate airborne defence and security services”.

The defence forces and the Department of Defence declined to confirm how much the training was going to cost the taxpayer. However, internal records from the department give an estimate of €650,000 to €850,000 for the training of four pilots.

The business case said that the Air Corps had been hit by a wave of “premature voluntary retirements”, including the short-notice departure of one senior pilot. It said that there was a global shortage of pilots, and that these were being felt particularly “acutely” in military air forces. “The consequence of this is that there is very limited, if any, military pilot training capacity in external air terms,” it said.

It added that the Air Corps had looked at alternative training options in UK joint military and civilian flight schools, but that there was no availability due to “national shortages” there. The business case said that training for specific military skills such as formation flying, low-level flight operations, tactical flying, and air firing, meant that market options were limited.

The Air Corps had engaged with the military in the UK and the US “at a very senior level” to discuss training options. “Only the US has indicated that they have the capacity to deal with a military pilot training request,” the document read.

The business case provided further background on just how short-handed the Air Corps had become, with retirements leaving them at a “culmination point”. Staffing levels of experienced pilots, especially helicopter commanders, were below critical mass, which had a knock-on effect on training.

It added: “Following a research visit to the US Army at Fort Rucker, Alabama to assess the viability of helicopter training, the US have offered military pilot training capacity. The training aircraft being offered are similar to [our] aircraft in terms of size, performance, and training output; necessitating minimal ‘differences’ on return … while maintaining training standards and timelines.”

The defence forces also prepared a strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats analysis on the move. It said that it would alleviate pressures on the Air Corps, and increase available resources. However, it added that the Air Corps would no longer have “direct and exclusive supervision” of trainees and that the costs involved were “unavoidable”.

Separately, Department of Defence records also warned of “organisational risk” if steps were not taken to manage the loss of experienced pilots.

A strategic review marked “confidential” stated: “Such a training surge, which is envisaged will last four years, would reduce the overall training pressures on the flying training school; shorten Air Corps cadetships to two years, qualify more pilot officers sooner, and mitigate training pressures risk.”

Asked for comment on the records, the defence forces said that they had nothing to add.

Makes sense considering they only have 6 (?) helos including 4 x AW139M and 2 x H135 latter used for training and other roles, so outsourcing training would make sense in this case Mother Rucker. Then again why they don’t use a commercial FTO or use likes of Babcock, PDG just as examples

Their recent purchase of 3 x Pilatus PC-12 and also ordering new Airbus Defence CN295 the other year ....modernisation wonder if any new RW assets also loom over the horizon.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2019/12/irish-department-of-defence-orders-two-airbus-c295-aircraft.html

Btw does anyone remember an espionage thriller written in the 80s with a Mig 23 on the front (forgot the title) but the plot was about Ireland overrun by (middle eastern) terrorists and it was not the IRA coming across the border.

cheers

[Declan275]

I’d hope a bulking up of the RW fleet would happen in the next few years - the removal of the prohibition on overseas deployment of aircraft means that it’s possible to either support a deployed Bn directly with Irish assets, or send a small detachment as a stand-alone contribution. Plenty of UN missions that would bite your hand off for it!

That, however, cycles you right back into training requirements and personnel numbers...

[Asturias56]

perhaps they can see this sort of issue coming to the front..........

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55552455An Irish fishing vessel has been blocked from entering waters around Rockall in the North Atlantic.

The Northern Celt, from County Donegal, was boarded by a Marine Scotland patrol boat on 4 January, Irish broadcaster RTÉ reports (https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0105/1187865-rockall-fishing/).

Its captain Adrian McClenaghan was told he can no longer fish within 12 nautical miles of the eroded volcano as a result of Brexit.

The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs said it is aware of the incident.

It said it has been in contact with UK and Scottish authorities.

[Sandy Parts]

Longstanding issue that has been ignored by UK Govt for years to avoid creating a fuss over small fry. Will now be an interesting diplomatic issue for the UK and Eire govts.

[mopardave]

Declan and Racedo,

That explains, I suppose, why so many folk from the Republic end up in the UK armed forces. Despite claims to the contrary, I can see an independent Scotland ending up in a similar situation. What I do find interesting is the idea of home grown resentment at the presence of any USAF aircraft pitching up. What price the American love of having Irish ancestry then?

FB

Hmmmm......if my extended family in the U.S. is anything to go by..........I think they'd be prepared to pay the "premium". Can't understand it myself.......they're no more Irish than I am.

[chopper2004]

First two lads to earn their US Army aviator badge


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1237x1697/7acc748f_7142_4e1b_aa20_e5121e6654e6_844a4511e31d098d0583b62 5562de58f7bc0ba01.jpeg

cheers

[chopper2004]

Ireland considers the purchase of air combat interceptors ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2020/06/28/ireland-considers-the-purchase-of-air-combat-interceptors/)

Ireland considers the purchase of air combat interceptors

The Irish Defence Forces have published its Equipment Development Plan 2020-24 document and the military is considering the purchase of air combat interceptors. The program is still at pre-planning stage and the consideration will be dependent on additional funding.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-considering-purchase-of-military-jet-aircraft-1.4289801

Maybe this might sway the Tsioach with the Russians intending to conducting firing exercises off Cork in a fortnight

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5714282c-7b0e-11ec-9998-b2483743c25e?shareToken=759d61f8333f4b564e2cbf937d45a96c

cheers

[Declan275]

Possibly it might at least prompt a redraft over the weekend of the final Commission on Defence Forces report!

[chevvron]

I hear there are some F16s going spare in Norway.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Here's Sean and Eric on duty:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x719/irish_fj_779ec01eca9116ce90d01920627f326a1268d43f.jpg

[Old Bricks]

Chopper2004 - Your #132. I think the book you quote re a terrorist take-over of Eire could be "Dark Rose" by Mike Lunnon-Wood. An interesting hypothesis of an undercover occupation, but the plot to retake the country goes down some very convoluted (and unlikely) routes. Old Bricks

[chopper2004]

Chopper2004 - Your #132. I think the book you quote re a terrorist take-over of Eire could be "Dark Rose" by Mike Lunnon-Wood. An interesting hypothesis of an undercover occupation, but the plot to retake the country goes down some very convoluted (and unlikely) routes. Old Bricks

That’s it thanks for this, just bought on kindle….very interesting plot.

cheers

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/radar-trackers-to-close-security-gap-in-irish-airspace-security-0h62mnqd6

Radar trackers to close security gap in Irish airspace security

The Commission on the Defence Forces is set to recommend the purchase of primary radar systems which would allow it to track aircraft that seek to evade detection in Irish airspace.

Ireland has secondary radar at a number of airports, which can only see an aircraft enter Irish airspace when its transponder is turned on. Similar recommendations are expected for the navy to assist it in monitoring Irish territorial waters.

The commission is also expected to recommend that a “joint” headquarters be established for the defence forces, with equal authority given to the air corps, navy and army. Ireland has a disproportionately larger army than navy or air corps, compared with countries of a similar size…..

The commission was established last January and comprises a number of military experts from Ireland and abroad. It was set up to establish the medium and long-term defence requirements of the state.

Defence sources have said a “complete and utter change” of the Defence Forces HQ is expected to be recommended alongside a move away from army dominance of all structure and systems. It is expected to reflect the thinking that Ireland needs to focus more on its navy and airforce, given its island status.

Some in government are nervous about the forthcoming report as it is expected to have “strong” recommendations on defence funding.

There had been speculation in December that a minority report might be issued, as some commission members were unhappy with the draft. However, after a meeting earlier this month a final draft was agreed and the report is likely to be sent to the government this week……

[mmitch]

Russian fleet? Just send some fishing boats. much cheaper!
Russia: Military drill moved further from Irish shore - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60184843)
mmitch.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/pinstripedline/status/1491511214203154437?s=21

[ORAC]

LOA3 conventional capability:

Developing full spectrum defence capabilities to protect Ireland and its people to an extent comparable to similar sized countries in Europe.

LOA 3 would involve developing defence capabilities that would match those of other small Western European countries. Some of these countries are also self‐declared as neutral while others participate fully in NATO.

This level of ambition would require Ireland to develop significantly strengthened capabilities in all domains, with commensurately higher levels of defence spending – of the order of two and a half to three times overall defence spending in recent years. These significantly stronger capabilities would also allow for a deeper engagement in international peace and humanitarian missions, and would deliver benefits in terms of ATCP and ATCA capacity.

As set out in Chapter 6, the capabilities for LOA 3 could involve, inter alia:

o Developing a substantial mechanised component of the Army offering state of the art
force protection, communications, ISTAR26 and firepower;

o A balanced fleet of at least 12 naval ships, supported by appropriate technology;

o Air combat and intercept capability through the acquisition of a squadron of combat
aircraft;

o Combat aircraft, pilots and support personnel to provide organic intra‐theatre mobility
based on tactical transport helicopters to support overseas deployments; o Maturing and strengthening a Joint Cyber Defence Command; and

o ARW/SOF having an organic self‐sustainment capability which would include dedicated combat helicopter assets.

This would allow the Defence Forces to provide a level of deterrence, defence and protection comparable to other similar sized countries in Europe. Given the scale of change involved in our defence capability in moving to LOA 3, it could only be properly developed in the context of a full review of our national defence policy, which could be undertaken within the planned Strategic Defence Review process.

[SamYeager]

I'm curious as to just where the funds and personnel will come from to support this ambition.

[Video Mixdown]

Model I built recently...


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/yx99dzdl_506ae01e8fa2a5825c8a6c4ae184a8dd985a97de.jpg
This guy should send them his plastic model with the fantasy Oirish markings. Closest they'll ever get.

[ORAC]

If they wanted a squadron of F16s I’m sure that the USA would be more than willing to do a deal to provide them second hand for a peppercorn price - and train the air and ground crew. The affection for Ireland isn’t limited to the President.

[MPN11]

I'm curious as to just where the funds and personnel will come from to support this ambition.Governments can always find the funds if there’s a political will. Which is how UK has funded the billions spent on Covid measures over the last 2 years.

Personnel is, I admit, a more challenging aspect.

[fitliker]

Will buying foreign military weapons affect Irish neutrality ?
The Swiss and Swedes build their own weapons and their neutrality is generally respected ?
How can Irish neutrality be respected if they become just another client state ?

[ORAC]

You mean unlike Austria, Finland and Switzerland?

[The Blonde one]

Will buying foreign military weapons affect Irish neutrality ?
The Swiss and Swedes build their own weapons and their neutrality is generally respected ?
How can Irish neutrality be respected if they become just another client state ?

The Swiss operate US built F-18s and F-5s, and mostly German built Armoured vehicles. The Swedes on the other hand build and export their own fighters but import most of their non-combat aircraft. So I don’t believe that Ireland importing military equipment will have any effect on their neutrality or other countries perceptions of that neutrality.

[Davef68]

They could buy Gripens.

[Just a spotter]

Will buying foreign military weapons affect Irish neutrality ?
The Swiss and Swedes build their own weapons and their neutrality is generally respected ?
How can Irish neutrality be respected if they become just another client state ?

Almost the equipment used by the Irish Defence Forces is foreign, from the Steyr AUG A1, to the MOWAG Piranha III's. Neutrality has been interpreted by previous governments in a way that does not allow the sale of any munitions from Ireland. But purchases from other nations is the norm.

JAS

[Geriaviator]

It'll never happen. The Republic of Ireland has been a net beneficiary of EU funds for a couple of decades. As of last year the flow of funds was reversed and the populace is unlikely to see a billion or so Euros expended on FJs. Unkind persons might consider it better to let the Brits provide aerial defence as they did 80 years ago.

[mopardave]

It'll never happen. The Republic of Ireland has been a net beneficiary of EU funds for a couple of decades. As of last year the flow of funds was reversed and the populace is unlikely to see a billion or so Euros expended on FJs. Unkind persons might consider it better to let the Brits provide aerial defence as they did 80 years ago.
I've often wondered what's in it for us.........I can't imagine the Irish fall over themselves with gratitude and chip a few bob in to the kitty!

[Una Due Tfc]

I've been wondering at the coincidence of Russia moving the firing drills the same day a recommendation to install primary radar was announced. We're a great big open door into UK airspace, hence why it may be in the UK's interest to provide QRA.

[Asturias56]

Effectively the UK does provide coverage of Irish airspace.

Its rather pointless to argue about Ireland being a special case - it is and has always been a special case. Long before the Eu Irish citizens could travel and work in the UK and join the armed forces. They're the UK's neighbours and for all the centuries of problems they're very, very close in every practical sense.

It doesn't cost the UK anything to provide QRA for the Republic

[mopardave]

Effectively the UK does provide coverage of Irish airspace.

Its rather pointless to argue about Ireland being a special case - it is and has always been a special case. Long before the Eu Irish citizens could travel and work in the UK and join the armed forces. They're the UK's neighbours and for all the centuries of problems they're very, very close in every practical sense.

It doesn't cost the UK anything to provide QRA for the Republic
Like so many things in life......close when they want to be. I'm sure it could be argued that us providing air defence, while it may not cost us anything, it certainly saves them a great deal. It would be nice to have a close neighbour prepared to muck in.

[ORAC]

We used to have RAF Bishops Court until 1989 as part of UKADGE - no problems with the locals until the IRA mortared it. Reportedly it was a mistake and the IRA sent a letter of apology.

Regardless, the decision was made to close at a high level and, during one night, they all climbed into vehicles, locked the doors and drive away.

I was working at RAF Boulmer at the time, the CRC to which CRP Bishops Court reported. They didn’t answer the phone the next day and we couldn’t work out why we couldn’t contact them - we only found out by calling HQ 11 Gp….

So closed the last air defence radar site in Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bishops_Court

p.s. Lousy radar coverage to the west because the Mountains of Mourne were in the way…

[Video Mixdown]

I've been wondering at the coincidence of Russia moving the firing drills the same day a recommendation to install primary radar was announced. We're a great big open door into UK airspace, hence why it may be in the UK's interest to provide QRA.
Freeloaders who want something for nothing. What a contemptible attitude.

[Geriaviator]

It's good of the Republic to allow the RAF to defend them, but as former 72 Sqn members will know, on no account must Typhoons enter Irish airspace. Infringements cause great offence and result in diplomatic complaints.

[mopardave]

Freeloaders who want something for nothing. What a contemptible attitude.
Indeed.......'twas ever thus though! It's nice when you can hide behind the cloak of neutrality and a generous next door neighbour......and then "bite the hand....."! A pretty shabby attitude really. Criticise the Irish at your peril in front of my American cousins.......that really is a social trip wire! They're no more Irish than I am (actually very) but boy oh boy! I'm pretty sure the Americans would happily donate a few F16's.......operating them may be more of an issue.

[Una Due Tfc]

Freeloaders who want something for nothing. What a contemptible attitude.

Let's be honest, the only country that has ever posed a real threat to Ireland in history is the UK. There would have been an attitude of not wanting to spend billions on something that was of no real benefit to us (we had a pretty good relationship with the Soviet Union bizarrely, Aeroflot kept thousands of people in jobs directly and indirectly). An open wound which thankfully has healed a tremendous amount over the last 25 years or so thankfully.

Don't forget we were effectively poverty stricken until the 90s. Didn't have the money to begin with. Now is a different story and momentum is changing. That new defense proposal recommends tripling the budget immediately, and ploughing money into the Navy and Air Corps.

[Davef68]

It's interesting just how 'neutral' Ireland were during WW2 - allowing allied airmen to return home whilst interning Germans, allowing overflights of Allied aircraft (Donegal Corridor), passing over a 'captured' Ju88 with the latest radar to the RAF, weather reports and forecasts passed to the British, repairing of Allied ships in Irish shipyards amongst other things.. The Irish security services also effectively put an end to the IRA during the Emergency..

De Valera was a pragmatist - he recognised that if Britain were to be defeated, Ireland's own position would be considerably threatened. he also recognised that a hostile Ireland may see the threat come from the UK .

[Asturias56]

I'm sure the UK would rather see a stronger Irish Navy and a decent radar coverage than have them bother buying a handful of expensive jet fighters

[fitliker]

Long range Search and Rescue aircraft might be more useful and helpful . Something that could drop life rafts if needed , Flir and Lidar equipped. And a decent kettle and bog onboard for those long night trips . Fishing boats rarely get in trouble on nice days .

[KiloB]

It hasn’t taken very long for this requirement to mature. The Irish Government has just announced that Russian Aircraft are banned from Irish Airspace and to be “enforced by the Irish Aviation Authority “. Wonder if this organisation writes a strongly worded letter, or requests a QRA pair?

[ORAC]

Does that include the Shanwick Atlantic routes?

[MAINJAFAD]

We used to have RAF Bishops Court until 1989 as part of UKADGE - no problems with the locals until the IRA mortared it. Reportedly it was a mistake and the IRA sent a letter of apology.

Regardless, the decision was made to close at a high level and, during one night, they all climbed into vehicles, locked the doors and drive away.

I was working at RAF Boulmer at the time, the CRC to which CRP Bishops Court reported. They didn’t answer the phone the next day and we couldn’t work out why we couldn’t contact them - we only found out by calling HQ 11 Gp….

So closed the last air defence radar site in Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bishops_Court

p.s. Lousy radar coverage to the west because the Mountains of Mourne were in the way…

They wouldn't have answered the phone anyway from Ops at least because the Station was down for annual maintenance on the morning that the station was declared non operational. It took best part of 5 months to close the place, with a gradual removal of the equipment and drawdown of the multiple sites that made up the station. Everything was ripped out including all of the carpets in the Married Quarters, which resulted in the personnel who stayed there to the end sleeping in sleeping bags on camp beds in the MQ site.

[Martin the Martian]

Perhaps the Irish could send three or four pilots to the Typhoon force to fly integrated non-deployable RAF ops (effectively national QRA only and associated training) as part of an agreement that would formalise Ireland as part of the UKADR. Just a thought.

[Geriaviator]

Perhaps the Irish could send three or four pilots to the Typhoon force to fly non-deployable RAF ops
Ireland will shelter behind the skirts of her English oppressors as she did in 1940, The hundreds of Irishmen who did volunteer to fight and to fly against tyranny during the Emergency (as World War II is still called today) were ostracised when they returned home. And President Devalera made haste to the German Embassy to sign the condolences book on the death of that great statesman, Herr Hitler. Ireland will remain neutral no matter what happens.

[Video Mixdown]

Perhaps the Irish could send three or four pilots to the Typhoon force to fly integrated non-deployable RAF ops (effectively national QRA only and associated training) as part of an agreement that would formalise Ireland as part of the UKADR. Just a thought.
I thought Ireland was a wealthy, independent EU state. In what way do they qualify for charity from the UK?

[Asturias56]

It's not "charity" - it's a "neighbourly gesture"

[melmothtw]

It seems to be that the chief interest that an aggressor, Russia say, would have in Irish airspace is as a backdoor into UK airspace, As such, I would say it is very much in our interest to help them plug that gap.

[Video Mixdown]

It seems to be that the chief interest that an aggressor, Russia say, would have in Irish airspace is as a backdoor into UK airspace, As such, I would say it is very much in our interest to help them plug that gap.
Co-operate - of course, just as we co-operate with our NATO allies. However they all provide a share of the assets needed and Ireland can well afford to do the same.

[Declan275]

Hello all,

Perhaps a bit of context on this. We all see things through our own eyes, with our own perspective borne of experience and history. In that way, to some, Ireland is seen as freeloading on (insert NATO, UK, EU etc here depending on the conversation ). The unfortunate truth is that at several levels Ireland has a cultural blindspot when it comes to security and defence.

For example, one of the ways to identify a work group level culture is that the same decisions are made the same way over and over again. From this perspective, you can have very intelligent and capable people advising, hiring and creating policy within a very blinkered way of thinking. I would apply thisl to our civil service and politicians, including the Dept of Defence. One of the most revered civil servants in Irish history, T.K. Whitaker was recently revealed to having likened Defence policy to being a driver with no insurance or road tax - so long as we don't have an accident or meet the police we'd get away with it. This, as poor a take as it was, was at least a decision in terms of a policy. I'd argue that no real, critically examined and debated, decision on an externally facing defence policy has been made since then. It's been a case of 'we've always done it that way'. This may seem harsh on our civil service, but the larger truth is they, just like the DF, are drawn from the society they represent.

In that regard, the description of culture as being the stories we tell ourselves, about ourselves is probably more appropriate. We've told ourselves some whoppers. For example, we've told ourselves that we are a peaceful people, to a level over and above others at least. This in a country that has seen, on this landmass, in the last century and a bit, the 1916 Rising, The War of Independence, The Civil War, ( short interlude for the 1930s where elements fought on both sides of the Spanish Civil War and the 1940s which were, I believe, fairly quiet ), the IRA Border Campaign of the 1950s and The Troubles. For all of these from independence on, see also the associated internal security measures, or read Soldiering Against Subversion by Dan Harvey for a better description than I can give. Externally, once Ireland had joined the UN, the DF external focus was always on overseas ops including actions in places such as Congo, Lebanon, Liberia, Wesern Sahara, Chad, Kosovo, Syria and alot more. Ask at home though and people won't put together the connection between peacekeeping or peace enforcement and soldiering or even having a military.

The other fairytale that we've told ourselves is that we're neutral, and this has been adopted by large parts of the country with an almost religious stance. The problem is we fail every test of neutrality. It's neither part of the constitution or legislation for a start, it's more of a continuing practice. Unfortunately, Ireland cannot pass the test of being able to deny it's own territory to a third party in someone eles conflict. And that's pretty much it, neutrality failure right there. As a policy, it may actually have made sense when originally conceived as a response to WWII ( not saying morally correct, but you're talking about a poor country at the time which had just emerged from a bitter civil war, with many of the same players still in the wings. Looking for more trouble wouldn't have been wise, especially when like it or not, siding with UK would have been problematic at the time).This also despite the large number of personnel who fought for the allies ( to keep it air related , google Wing Cmdr Brendan Finnucane), the existence of the Donegal Corridor providing for transit by Allied aircraft, the passing of weather information, sharing of some of the code breaking that was done by G2, the return in many cases of downed allied aircraft and combined plans with the UK to respond to a German invasion. Not participating, but also a poor effort at neutrality.

In the intervening decades however, neutrality has become identified as something it's not - a morally virtuous position, as opposed to a practial political stance. Neutrality has also been conflated with passivity to extent that the DF have been underfunded to breaking point. To simply suggest that we would have any kind of weapons is scandalous. There was mild outrage in the media a while ago when it was revealed ( in a social media post by the DF press office ) that Ireland had been firing Javelin missiles in the Glen of Imaal training area. The gist of the responses were something along the lines of 'our saintly peacekeepers wouldn't need such unpleasantries'. Look, I'm sure you could stack Javelin boxes high enough to make an orphanage, but they also are kinda important for force protection...

As regards high end expenditures like jets, radar etc, the security picture for decades was internally focused for very obvious reasons, with the Army , and specifically the infantry, being the service people saw most of on the streets. That's all still very much within living memory. So it's what the picture people have in their head consists of if you talk about defence or security. The follow on from that is that, if that threat is gone, then why do we need a DF when we could spend money on health, housing, homelessness etc? Any discussion on things like air policing is really only in the baby steps in the national media, so culturally it has a long way to go. Translate that into votes for DF friendly candidates and then onward into cabinet decisions when carving up the budget and then on from there into developing a capability. It won't happen quickly, and was unlikely to happen up till now, where at least an opposing and fact based view is easier to present to a wide audience.

It's against that background that you have to look at a the Commission on Defence recomendations as they were recently released. It's a minor miracle that conventional capabilities like monitoring our own airspace were mentioned at all, even if only in the third and highest Level of Ambition. It's already receiving backlash, even with the events of this week. However, you never know, it might be the starting point from which a real QRA capability can grow.

Anyway, TL/DR version - lease Gripens for ten years and see what happens.

[Declan275]

It seems to be that the chief interest that an aggressor, Russia say, would have in Irish airspace is as a backdoor into UK airspace, As such, I would say it is very much in our interest to help them plug that gap.
Very much so. The prevailing wisdom is that Ireland would be used as a landmass to hide behind and launch on RN in Plymouth from The Atlantic.

[Lonewolf_50]

(very informative post snipped)
Anyway, TL/DR version - lease Gripens for ten years and see what happens.
1. That seems a good idea. There's an old (semi humorous) Texan adage that goes something like "If it floats, flies, or fcuks, lease it don't buy it!" (The tricky part, I suspect, would come with how one sets up the support/spares/maintenance effort, and the budgeting of the training/readiness budget for ongoing operations).

2. Thanks for a good summary of how things look in the Emerald Isle. As one who sees things from the western side of the pond (the only Irish I served with were Northern Ireland folk in the RN and RAF when I was in NATO) I've noted with some interest (when I was serving) how vigorously Ireland declares its neutrality. Ireland certainly has contributed units to a variety of peacekeeping ops over the years: SFOR is an op I am//was quite familiar with.
Your insights are helpful in aiding my understanding, thanks again.

[pr00ne]

It seems to be that the chief interest that an aggressor, Russia say, would have in Irish airspace is as a backdoor into UK airspace, As such, I would say it is very much in our interest to help them plug that gap.

Agreed. Anyway, we would police that airspace even if Ireland wasn't there. So in many ways it is an irrelevance that Ireland IS there in terms of policing the UK Air Defence Region. We would do it anyway, so the fact that Ireland benefits would not cost the UK anything in addition.

[mopardave]

It's not "charity" - it's a "neighbourly gesture"

...........and so long as it works both ways, that's fine. Does it?

[Video Mixdown]

It's not "charity" - it's a "neighbourly gesture"
A 'neighbourly gesture ' would be lending you my stepladder for a couple of days, not using my car whenever you want because you're too mean to buy one of your own.

[Declan275]

A 'neighbourly gesture ' would be lending you my stepladder for a couple of days, not using my car whenever you want because you're too mean to buy one of your own.

To be fair, no one knows what the nature of the govt to govt agreement is because, while we know it exists, the details haven’t been made public.

Keeping to the neighbourly analogy above it could as much a case of ‘ you can drive your car across my lawn if you’re responding to an emergency, so long as you respond to my emergency too’ as much as anything else.

My own opinion is that we should have at least a basic capability developed that is entirely under sovereign, Irish, control. That way, any further cooperation can be on a more even and transparent level.

[Training Risky]

To be fair, no one knows what the nature of the govt to govt agreement is because, while we know it exists, the details haven’t been made public.

Keeping to the neighbourly analogy above it could as much a case of ‘ you can drive your car across my lawn if you’re responding to an emergency, so long as you respond to my emergency too’ as much as anything else.

My own opinion is that we should have at least a basic capability developed that is entirely under sovereign, Irish, control. That way, any further cooperation can be on a more even and transparent level.
Didn't the IAC have Magisters a while ago. Can't they be dug out of cold storage?!

[Just a spotter]

From The Irish Times, 2nd May 2022

Defence sources said the option currently being considered is a “Level of Ambition 2.5” ... This would see the Defence Forces receiving hugely increased cyber capabilities and a primary radar system which would allow it to monitor effectively Irish skies for the first time.

It would also receive increased air lift capacity, improved armoured personnel carriers and an increase in numbers in the Naval Service to allow ships to spend more time at sea.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/increase-in-defence-spending-likely-to-take-at-least-three-years-1.4866904

JAS

[Asturias56]

Looks like a reasonable upgrade

[fitliker]

What will be the requirements of the new EU armed farces ? Will they respect the long held neutrality? Could be dangerous if the EU makes good on the recommendations to abolish the Veto for individual nations .Creating the conditions for more forever wars .

[Declan275]

All the more reason to get in at the ground floor! That way Ireland would at least have a seat at the table when it comes to setting conditions for use.

[melmothtw]

What will be the requirements of the new EU armed farces ? Will they respect the long held neutrality? Could be dangerous if the EU makes good on the recommendations to abolish the Veto for individual nations .Creating the conditions for more forever wars .

If only we had a say on whether that were to happen or not.

[pr00ne]

From The Irish Times, 2nd May 2022



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/increase-in-defence-spending-likely-to-take-at-least-three-years-1.4866904

JAS

However, it still will not allow Ireland to actually DEFEND itself against, well, anyone!

[Asturias56]

Well maybe they reckon they're unlikely to be invaded by anyone. And if they're big enough to invade then they're too big to stop?

[Declan275]

Well maybe they reckon they're unlikely to be invaded by anyone. And if they're big enough to invade then they're too big to stop?

The arguments against all seem to include something along that line, along with ‘ The US/U.K./EU will jump in, it’s in their interest.’ The mental gymnastics required to square this position with the observable political reality playing out in Ukraine re: coming to people’s aid, and a dogmatic adherence to neutrality, are quite something.

The discussion is moving though, slowly but it exists which is more than I can say I’ve seen before. As for the air policing side of things, the cheapest/most likely option of a Gripen lease is probably off the table now given that Sweden are reactivating reserve squadrons.

[KiloB]

As always, the devil is in the detail. Ireland doesn’t currently have an Airforce (it’s the Irish Air Corps) so many of the Trades and skills required in a ‘fighting’ airforce would need to be created from scratch. Just buying a dozen AD aircraft is only the headline event.

[Declan275]

As always, the devil is in the detail. Ireland doesn’t currently have an Airforce (it’s the Irish Air Corps) so many of the Trades and skills required in a ‘fighting’ airforce would need to be created from scratch. Just buying a dozen AD aircraft is only the headline event.

Certainly, a lot of the skills required are ‘nascent’ at best. Even ones that previously existed have left with the holder without replacement. Aer Lingus, for example, has more FAC trained personnel than the Air Corps😢

[Davey Emcee]

Air Corps could buy second-hand fighters from other European air forces, jet manufacturer says (thejournal.ie) (https://www.thejournal.ie/fighter-jets-ireland-lockheed-martin-5782217-Jun2022/)

[Just a spotter]

Air Corps could buy second-hand fighters from other European air forces, jet manufacturer says (thejournal.ie) (https://www.thejournal.ie/fighter-jets-ireland-lockheed-martin-5782217-Jun2022/)

So sales guy for LM, who is a development partner of the Korean T-50/FA-50, tries to convince their Irish audience that the T-50/FA-50 advanced trainer/light combat aircraft is equivalent to an all-weather/multi-role aircraft such as the F-16 by comparing the new price of the '50 to the hypothetical used price for F-16's.

Apples and oranges.

And for now a moot argument, there's plenty of steps for the Defence Forces to go though before jets arrive ... if they do.

JAS

[Lonewolf_50]

And for now a moot argument, there's plenty of steps for the Defence Forces to go though before jets arrive ... if they do.
JAS As an interested observer with no skin in the game: as I read through the comments under the linked article, and with a modest understanding of area Air Defense, I think that getting the fighters before setting up the radar capability would be putting the cart before the horse. (yes, those two programs could certainly be taken on in parallel). This post assumes that GCI would be the modus operandi.

As the comments stream under that link point out, getting the money approved and the requirement well documented and agreed would be the first step.

JAS, I grinned at your point on the T-50. :ok: ;) Of course L-M would recommend that!

When it comes down to a selection, if the funds are approved and agreed, how does one conduct a fly off / op eval if one has no Fast Jet pilot base to draw upon?
Lastly: the training infrastructure is another expense (for both the maintenance and flying bits) but I expect that 'train overseas once selection is made' is the less expensive path forward in the near term.
It is interesting to see that a ten year time horizon is being discussed: good piece of expectations management, that.

[Yellow Sun]

I see that this has again raised its head in an oblique fashion :

Irish Times Monday 8 May 2023 (https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/05/08/secret-anglo-irish-air-defence-agreement-dates-back-over-70-years/)

YS

[ORAC]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/19/ireland-debate-military-neutrality-president-michael-d-higgins-government

Ireland ‘playing with fire’ for opening debate on military neutrality, says president

Ireland’s president has rebuked the government for launching a debate about the country’s longstanding military neutrality and the possibility of joining Nato, saying ministers were “playing with fire”.

Michael D Higgins accused the government of a dangerous “drift” from a cornerstone of Irish foreign policy and said it risked “burying” Ireland in other people’s agendas.

The intervention, made in an interview with the Business Post (https://www.businesspost.ie/news/michael-d-higgins-exclusive-ireland-is-playing-with-fire-in-dangerous-drift-towards-nato/) newspaper on Sunday, puts a spotlight on a government-sponsored forum on international security, where Ireland’s neutrality will be debated. It also raises questions on the role of the president, who occupies a largely ceremonial post.…

The arrival of Ukrainian refugees, incursions by Russian ships that are suspected of mapping underwater cables and a 2021 ransomware attack (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/14/ransomware-attack-disrupts-irish-health-services) by suspected Russian gangs on the health service have raised questions about Ireland’s meagre security resources.

The justice minister, Helen McEntee, defended holding the forum. “The president himself knows what the boundaries are here, and he expressed his views. Many would agree with him, there are many who would disagree, and that’s why we need to have this forum,” she told the Newstalk radio network.

Neale Richmond, the junior enterprise minister, said the president had sailed “close to the line”.

Ireland has joined UN peacekeeping missions but shunned military alliances and invested little in defence compared with other countries. Critics accuse it of saving money and claiming the moral high ground while sheltering beneath a Nato (https://www.theguardian.com/world/nato) umbrella.

Micheál Martin, the deputy prime minister, said the government did not intend to abandon military neutrality but that the forum would explore evolving security needs.

Ireland has previously convened citizens’ assemblies to debate constitutional changes (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/how-99-strangers-in-a-dublin-hotel-broke-irelands-abortion-deadlock) such as ending an abortion ban.

The upcoming consultative forum involves experts, academics and service personnel as well as citizens. They will meet on 22-27 June in Cork, Galway and Dublin…..

[Declan275]

In fairness, he’s been criticised fairly widely, both for interfering in a government area of responsibility and for the comments themselves. He’s a very old school left wing politician who indulges his own views from time to time when he really shouldn’t.

[SWBKCB]

I think the EU should step in - how is it fair in a single market that one economy is able to side-step a considerable portion of national expenditure that other economies have to bear (tongue firmly in cheek, before anybody asks...)

[minigundiplomat]

I think the EU should step in - how is it fair in a single market that one economy is able to side-step a considerable portion of national expenditure that other economies have to bear (tongue firmly in cheek, before anybody asks...)

Feel free to take your tongue out of your cheek - you raise a fair point if there was Russian incursions into Irish airspace tomorrow, they’d expect their nearest neighbour to use their expensive assets to intercept, even though they’re happy to stick the boot into that neighbour on any given occasion.

[Declan275]

Feel free to take your tongue out of your cheek - you raise a fair point if there was Russian incursions into Irish airspace tomorrow, they’d expect their nearest neighbour to use their expensive assets to intercept, even though they’re happy to stick the boot into that neighbour on any given occasion.

Well, apparently the bilateral deal for exactly that goes back 70 years. That it stayed under wraps for so long given everything that occurred during that timeframe is quite something.

[Video Mixdown]

Well, apparently the bilateral deal for exactly that goes back 70 years. That it stayed under wraps for so long given everything that occurred during that timeframe is quite something.
So why the coyness? If Ireland is so happy to have a friendly neighbouring state assist with air defence/policing why not just declare it and acknowledge how much they appreciate such effective international cooperation? Could it be because Irish politicians would then be seen as hypocrites when they continually spit bile at the UK?

[Biggus]

It's not that Irish politicians are hypocrites - more a case that ALL politicians are hypocrites

[Liffy 1M]

So why the coyness? If Ireland is so happy to have a friendly neighbouring state assist with air defence/policing why not just declare it and acknowledge how much they appreciate such effective international cooperation? Could it be because Irish politicians would then be seen as hypocrites when they continually spit bile at the UK?

I'm not sure where the "continually spitting bile at the UK" idea comes from. The great majority of Irish politicians and indeed the population are favourably disposed to the UK, with many having relatives there or having worked and lived there themselves. As this is not a political forum, I will refrain from commenting on anything that falls under that category.

[air pig]

Where are you getting that information - they are more than capable of providing the service.


What makes you think they were stolen - as neutral country during the war, the arrangement with the British government was that any aircraft which force landed on the island was kept and the crew returned.

Because for five years the company I worded for Air Alliance from Germany provided a night on call Lear 35 from Dublin airport manned by British and German pilots. The contract was lost to IIRC Woodgates in 2019.

[chopper2004]

According to Airbus FB, the IAC have received their first C295W

https://scontent-lcy1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/356643053_646353917526373_422577526521310708_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1 01&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=fsaxXwsFjeUAX-Ocora&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-1.xx&oh=00_AfDIRRAtT4IRcXetwLr-fqeqm3KVR_13pq5Rd3_cgtXyrQ&oe=64A0F4DF

https://scontent-lcy1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/356621123_646354044193027_8516868029280967030_n.jpg?stp=cp6_ dst-jpg&_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2ZpYb570QNMAX_qA3s_&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-1.xx&oh=00_AfCL-9i2aHsdkddb8FRZrxVna7Gy04JZHT2iXeTsK0wCtQ&oe=64A06CC4

cheers

[Asturias56]

rather smart :ok:

[CAEBr]

Perhaps in return for the Typhoon coverage we could borrow one or two to replace the Hercules :8

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps in return for the Typhoon coverage we could borrow one or two to replace the Hercules :8

They are only getting two...

[Asturias56]

Something is better than nothing.................

[SWBKCB]

Makes it difficult to borrow one or two, though!

[Meeks]

Isn’t the Air Corp about the become the Irish Air Force?

[ORAC]

H/T Sir Humphrey…

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/23/naval-service-down-to-two-ships-due-to-manpower-crisis/

Naval Service left with two ships to patrol Irish waters due to manpower crisis

Two more Naval Service ships are being withdrawn from active service due to crew shortages, leaving just two vessels to patrol 437,500sq km of Irish waters.

The Irish Times has learned the LÉ James Joyce and the LÉ George Bernard Shaw are being placed in reserve, with their crews being used to help man the Naval Services’ two remaining active vessels, the LÉ William Butler Yeats and the LÉ Samuel Beckett.

The move means Ireland will have fewer ships available to patrol than at any point since the 1970s and will likely raise concerns at national and European Union level about the country’s ability to ensure maritime security, enforce fishery rules and protect infrastructure.

It also raises questions about how the Naval Service will crew two inshore patrol vessels recently purchased second-hand from New Zealand for €26 million (https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/03/14/ireland-takes-formal-possession-of-naval-service-vessels-from-new-zealand/). The ships, which are intended to patrol the Irish Sea starting in 2024, arrived last May.

With the latest move, the Naval Service has gone from a fleet of nine active ships to just two in the space of four years.

The news has been met with disappointment and frustration by military representative bodies which have been campaigning for better allowances and conditions to stem the exodus of naval personnel to the private sector.

“This is disappointing but not surprising. It’s an example of the Naval Service cutting its cloth to measure, due to an inability to attract and, more importantly, retain personnel,” said Conor King, general secretary of the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers.

“The reasons for this are well known; failure to implement safe and fair working conditions and failure to pay adequate allowances for hours worked.”

Gerard Guinan, general secretary of the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association said that, while not commenting on operational matters, the Naval Service will likely see near record numbers of personnel departing this year, he said.

Military management has determined the manpower situation is so dire that there are also not enough personnel to carry out onshore security duties around the Naval headquarters in Haulbowline, Co Cork.

The Defence Forces is examining the possibility of asking other nation’s navies to train personnel in an effort to quickly address the crisis. This follows the retention of a maritime recruitment company earlier this year to find personnel globally. This company, however, has warned the Defence Forces the hiring environment is extremely competitive.

The Naval Service has 739 personnel, including 26 in training.

It hopes it can bring crew numbers back up so the Joyce can be put back to sea in December and Shaw at some point in 2024. Another vessel, the LÉ Róisín is also tied up while the LÉ Niamh is undergoing a midlife refit.

The Yeats recently returned from a five week mission in the Mediterranean, where it helped to enforce a United Nations arms embargo on Libya as part of Operation Irini. Part of the reason for taking part in the mission was to drive Naval Service recruitment.

There are provisional plans for another Naval ship to be deployed to Irini next year, sources said, but this will be contingent on personnel numbers.

The Department of Defence said it has been informed the Naval Service is “adopting a three ship posture with immediate effect”. Multiple sources said only two ships will be available for patrol, however.

“This strategic decision has been taken in order to streamline operations, bolster existing capabilities and ensure optimal resource allocation in the Naval Service,” a spokesman said.

The manpower crisis is impacting the entire Defence Forces, forcing military management to consider shuttering other operations. This includes possibly standing down the Fire Service in operation in the Curragh Camp in Co Kildare.

A Defence Forces spokesman said it is “reviewing all of our current operational outputs” to bring the organisation in line with the EU Working Time Directive. Its recommendations will be presented to the Minister for Defence once the review is complete.

[ORAC]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41288176.html


Ireland's lack of sonar forced British navy to chase Russian sub away from Cork Harbour

The Irish Examiner understands the incident with the Russian submarine occurred directly south of the entrance to Cork Harbour

[ORAC]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sinn-fein-say-irish-reliance-on-british-forces-embarrassing/

Sinn Féin say Irish reliance on British forces ’embarrassing’

Sinn Féin spokesperson on Foreign Affairs and Defence, Matt Carthy TD, has said that reports of the Royal Navy navy ‘chasing off’ a Russian submarine from undersea cables near Cork harbour (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british-warship-chases-off-russian-sub-from-irish-harbour/) represents ‘an embarrassing product of the failure of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil governments to adequately invest in the Irish Defence Forces.

Deputy Carthy criticised the delays in ensuring that the Irish Naval Service vessels have sufficient sonar equipment. Teachta Carthy said:

“Reports that the British navy was forced to ‘chase off’ a Russian submarine positioned directly outside of Cork Harbour represents an embarrassing product of the failure of successive Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil governments to adequately invest in the Irish Defence Forces.

That failure continues. It is simply not good enough that Irish Naval Service vessels do not have sonar equipment. It has been long promised, but as with so many aspects of Defence Forces development progress has been painfully slow.

The Commission on the Defence Forces set out a need for capital expenditure of €246.5 million each year over ten years in order to meet Level of Ambition 2 (LOA2). Last year the government missed that target by €70 million. In Budget 2024, they missed it again, by another €70 million.

The lack of capacity in terms of equipment and personnel within our Defence Forces is a result of the failures of successive Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael governments. It has led to the embarrassment of needing other states to inform us as to what is happening in our skies and seas, and it is an insult to the men and women of the Defence Forces.

Sinn Féin wants to build our Defence Forces to protect Irish neutrality and sovereignty; monitor and defend our skies and seas; and safeguard our people from modern threats, including cyber and hybrid attacks.

In our alternative budget for 2024, Sinn Féin committed to deliver the capital funding levels required to achieve LOA2 from next year – that is what is required.

Rather than concentrating on removing the triple-lock neutrality protection, Micheál Martin and government should instead focus on building the capacity of our Defence Forces.”

[Geriaviator]

Excellent. Sinn Fein has many years' experience of building an Army.

[Asturias56]

so he knows what he's talking about then?

[ORAC]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ireland-must-be-responsible-for-its-own-maritime-security/

Ireland must be responsible for its own maritime security

Ireland, positioned strategically in the North Atlantic, finds itself at the nexus of a vast network of undersea fibre-optic cables, carrying about 97 per cent of the world’s communications and internet traffic.

With over 550 cables spanning 1.4 million kilometres (https://www.rte.ie/news/upfront/2023/1110/1415821-why-are-subsea-cables-off-ireland-causing-continental-concerns/) and a staggering ten trillion euros in financial transactions pulsating through them daily, the importance of these cables cannot be overstated. (https://www.irishpost.com/news/russian-agents-inspect-undersea-cables-ireland-amid-fears-tap-tamper-links-us-179836)

Yet, as global tensions escalate, with major geopolitical players like the United States, China, and Russia increasingly at odds, the spotlight turns to Ireland’s role in overseeing and securing these critical infrastructures. The importance impacts not only Ireland but also the broader European and global community.

This raises a crucial question: Should Ireland take responsibility for its own security, especially in protecting these undersea cables that are vital not only for its own prosperity but also for the functioning of the global digital economy?

This article explores why Ireland should, now more than ever, take a proactive stance in securing its waters and, by extension, a significant portion of the world’s digital lifelines…..

[Finningley Boy]

Sinn Féin say Irish reliance on British forces ’embarrassing’ (ukdefencejournal.org.uk) (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sinn-fein-say-irish-reliance-on-british-forces-embarrassing/)

Sinn Fein perhaps want the Republic to join NATO so they can cooperate better with the UK Forces.:uhoh:

FB

[ORAC]

FB, see post #218.

[Lonewolf_50]

so he knows what he's talking about then? In a word, no.
Sinn Féin say Irish reliance on British forces ’embarrassing’ (ukdefencejournal.org.uk) (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/sinn-fein-say-irish-reliance-on-british-forces-embarrassing/)
Sinn Fein perhaps want the Republic to join NATO so they can cooperate better with the UK Forces.:uhoh:
Not bloody likely. They can't afford it.

[Declan275]

Each political party transiently uses the problems of the DF to throw shade at each other before returning to the core subjects of health, housing and homelessness.
Any of them asserting neutrality should be asked how they would fund compliance with Article 5 of The Hague Convention. Hint: it’d be a lot more than it’ll take to reach LOA 2 or 3, and they won’t want to do it, hence being ‘non aligned’ as opposed to neutral.

[ORAC]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/04/russia-china-iran-could-target-uk-irish-backdoor-thinktank-warns

Russia, China and Iran could target UK via Irish ‘backdoor’, thinktank warns

Britain faces a “backdoor” threat to its security from a Russian, Chinese and Iranian presence in the Republic of Ireland (https://www.theguardian.com/world/ireland), according to a report by an influential thinktank that accuses Dublin of “freeloading” when it comes to European defence.

The UK should also expand its air and naval presence in Northern Ireland, to counter a growing Russian threat on the UK’s western flank, according to the Policy Exchange (https://policyexchange.org.uk/publications/) report, which is backed by two former defence secretaries, Michael Fallon and George Robertson.

The UK and Ireland are at risk from an “acute maritime menace” posed by a Russian doctrine of targeting undersea networks and pipelines and the presence of Russian warships, they say in a foreword to the paper.

Concerns about Russian intelligence operations in Ireland and its vulnerability to cyber-attack are also highlighted in the report, which cites what it describes as an “inordinately large Russian diplomatic outfit in Dublin”.…

Ireland’s president has rebuked the government for launching a debate about the country’s longstanding military neutrality and the possibility of joining Nato, saying ministers were “playing with fire”.

The report tried to sound an alarm bell about the consequences of Sinn Féin winning Irish elections in 2025.

“If Sinn Féin wins in 2025, the UK is therefore looking at many more years of an uncooperative, and likely hostile, neighbour in the face of growing external threats,” it said.…

https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/closing-the-back-door/

Closing the Back Door

https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Closing-the-Back-Door.pdf

[Asturias56]

so whats changed? The Republic has always been neutral

[Geriaviator]

Except with regard to the British ...

[Asturias56]

They're neutral - we don't expect the Swiss to help out - and TBH I've had a lot more agro being English in Scotland & Wales than I've ever had Ireland North or South

[melmothtw]

They're neutral - we don't expect the Swiss to help out - and TBH I've had a lot more agro being English in Scotland & Wales than I've ever had Ireland North or South

Great story, but explain how it has anything to do with Ireland's neutrality and/or lack of combat air power.

[ORAC]

I believe the point being made is that Ireland is both unable, and unwilling, to secure the safety of NATO western approaches, including transatlantic cables and airspace, and with the increasing threat, the UK should be looking at relocating resources to Northern Ireland to do the job.

(We used to have the radar site at Bishops Court, but its coverage to the west was poor due to the intervening mountains of Mourne. I imagine you could stick a remote radar head on the top of them these days).

No available west coast ports and I would have thought LM was close enough as is required for QRA.

[Video Mixdown]

They're neutral - we don't expect the Swiss to help out - and TBH I've had a lot more agro being English in Scotland & Wales than I've ever had Ireland North or South
Unlike the Irish, the Swiss are not freeloading. They have modern, well-equipped forces for their own defence and often participate in NATO exercises.

[Ninthace]

Unlike the Irish, the Swiss are not freeloading. They have modern, well-equipped forces for their own defence and often participate in NATO exercises.
Have you asked yourself why that might be and if the Irish situation the same?

[OvertHawk]

Have you asked yourself why that might be and if the Irish situation the same?

It's because the Irish can get away with freeloading whilst the Swiss realise they need to protect themselves and coordinate with NATO as any European conflict will rapidly involve them regardless of whether the claim to be neutral or not.

As regards Ireland. they know that they're stuck out on the edge of Europe well away from the more hostile players, protected by an Ocean that has historically been sewn up pretty tight by NATO with Airspace protected by the UK gratis because it suits the UK purpose.

They don't need to protect themselves because someone else will do it for them.

[melmothtw]

It's because the Irish can get away with freeloading whilst the Swiss realise they need to protect themselves and coordinate with NATO as any European conflict will rapidly involve them regardless of whether the claim to be neutral or not.

As regards Ireland. they know that they're stuck out on the edge of Europe well away from the more hostile players, protected by an Ocean that has historically been sewn up pretty tight by NATO with Airspace protected by the UK gratis because it suits the UK purpose.

They don't need to protect themselves because someone else will do it for them.

Well, nobody is getting to Switzerland without going through NATO to get there, so unsure who they feel the need to protect themselves from.

[Geriaviator]

Well, nobody is getting to Switzerland without going through NATO to get there.
Well, not at the moment.

[Video Mixdown]

Well, nobody is getting to Switzerland without going through NATO to get there, so unsure who they feel the need to protect themselves from.
Who knows what threat Switzerland may face, the point is that they take responsibility for being able to defend and control their own airspace. I see no reason why the wealthy independent EU state of Ireland should not be expected to do the same.

[Ninthace]

Switzerland's policy is to actively defend its territory and neutrality from all threats. Eire, being an island on the edge of Europe, has a far less aggressive attitude towards its neutrality (vide its relationship with the UK), and faces a different threat. Like all nations, it matches it defence spending to the resources available and to the perceived threat. I do not think it is more complicated than that.

[Mil-26Man]

Who knows what threat Switzerland may face, the point is that they take responsibility for being able to defend and control their own airspace. I see no reason why the wealthy independent EU state of Ireland should not be expected to do the same.

Well, only after they weren't able to intercept an errant airliner some years back because it was out of hours at the weekend and so the French and Italians had to step in.

[Ninthace]

Had to step in? I thought the gist of it was at weekends, the Swiss had subcontracted the task out - presumably for a price.
Times have changed though
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/no-more-9-to-5_swiss-air-force-gears-up-for-24-7-service/41889752


They are certainly capable of intercepting
https://www.expatica.com/ch/general/sw-fighter-jets-intercept-israeli-airliner-57415/

[Mil-26Man]

Had to step in? I thought the gist of it was at weekends, the Swiss had subcontracted the task out - presumably for a price.
Times have changed though
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/no-more-9-to-5_swiss-air-force-gears-up-for-24-7-service/41889752


They are certainly capable of intercepting
https://www.expatica.com/ch/general/sw-fighter-jets-intercept-israeli-airliner-57415/

Just as the Irish have subcontracted out their air defence, which I thought was the cause of the original complaint.

[Geriaviator]

the Swiss had subcontracted the task out - presumably for a price.
Just as the Irish have subcontracted out their air defence,

Not the same I'm afraid. The Irish 'subcontract' their defence but expect it for free. For all their bleating about neutrality they don't hesitate to call upon their neighbour on the other side of the Irish Sea. Such as the call last year when the Royal Navy was called upon to chase Russian vessels away from Cork. Not that the Russians/Chinese are interested in Ireland for the time being, it's a handy base for spying as it was throughout WW2, today it's the transatlantic cables they're after.

[Mil-26Man]

Not the same I'm afraid. The Irish 'subcontract' their defence but expect it for free. For all their bleating about neutrality they don't hesitate to call upon their neighbour on the other side of the Irish Sea. Such as the call last year when the Royal Navy was called upon to chase Russian vessels away from Cork. Not that the Russians/Chinese are interested in Ireland for the time being, it's a handy base for spying as it was throughout WW2, today it's the transatlantic cables they're after.

The details of the arrangement between Ireland the UK haven't been made public (they've barely admitted to there being an arrangement at all), and so no one knows to what extent it's 'free' or not.

[Belfast formation]

Some people in Ireland are the equivalent of a meerkat in Dublin zoo. Forget about it . There is no bird of prey sweeping out of the skies above Dublin to snatch you up. Irelands foreign policy has done little to engender the wrath of another state or its supporters . The 2 neighbours either side will follow their own agenda , there is nothing you could possibly do anyway . Relax. Read a book . Spend the money on intensive care beds which are btw among the lowest in number in Europe You literally could not burn money as quick as operating a fighter and the risks involved of a catastrophe involving your hapless citizens is enormous ..and I won’t go into your accident /incident rate per flight hour .unless of course you have an agenda to feather your own nest / add to your brown envelopes in some way ..

[POBJOY]

When PJ was doing a few airshows in Ireland 70-80's I do recall seeing a few (camo) Cessna Reims Rockets in use (fitted with rocket firing ability) (poss marker Rockets).
Were these their FAC ability or used for training. They certainly had the switch gear installed duly marked single, ripple etc.
A notable airshow attended was on the west coast (very rural) Kilkenny which was a very small club field. On arrival the fretwork fighter was invited to 'blow the weeds' off the runway but land before Concorde arrived. The radio in the Swift being somewhat limited in clear speech I only heard the Concorde bit in a rather distorted manner.
Anyway the weeds were duly dispersed followed by a tight low level circuit and landing on a available grass area.
Parked up, switched off, and hopped out, just in time to see an Air France machine nose drooped, gear down, cross the threshold at about 50ft doing a great 'weeds job' , It could only happen in the Emerald Isle, and the crowd though the timing was amazing !!!,someone must have a picture of this somewhere.

[ORAC]

Hmmm, west coast?

Speaking as someone who’s family came from Thomastown and who went to school in Kilkenny itself - I think you were lost….

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x1276/image_d17fd64074ec0728e6fa901a85d6cda4609893ea.png

[SLXOwft]

Well as long as Sinn Fein, should they ever gain power in the 26 counties, does not invite the building of a Xi's Town naval facility for the PLAN in Cobh as part of its 'no reliance on the Brits' defence policy I'm not too concerned.

PS. He meant Farranfore/An Fearann Fuar in Co Kerry/Contae Chiarraí

[Belfast formation]

Some people in Ireland are the equivalent of a meerkat in Dublin zoo. Forget about it . There is no bird of prey sweeping out of the skies above Dublin to snatch you up. Irelands foreign policy has done little to engender the wrath of another state or its supporters . The 2 neighbours either side will follow their own agenda , there is nothing you could possibly do anyway . Relax. Read a book . Spend the money on intensive care beds which are btw among the lowest in number in Europe You literally could not burn money as quick as operating a fighter and the risks involved of a catastrophe involving your hapless citizens is enormous ..and I won’t go into your accident /incident rate per flight hour .unless of course you have an agenda to feather your own nest / add to your brown envelopes in some way ..
Clearly I should also add some Walter Mitty fantasy/petty corrupt party politics / you watch too much TV / militaristic fetish /and you simply are completely deluded to the usual agenda of self promotion and personal financial gain in promoting this ludicrous idea