Fake Pakistani pilots

[cannot]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8459365/One-three-pilots-Pakistan-FAKE-flying-license-revealed.html

why do I find that I am not surprised that 1/3 of all Pakistani Pilots do not hold valid licences

[Hugo Peroni the V]

is that why cx recruiting there proved fruitless?

[CodyBlade]

The sarong airline down south has a lot of Indian sub continent pilots too due to mass recruitment.

[Slasher1]

Meh .......

I’ve been impersonating a real pilot for decades.

[controlledrest]

A couple of years ago CX interviewed a bunch of Indian pilots. CX weren't sure of the hours in the log books of most of them. At the end of the process they offered a job to one pilot. He turned CX down as POS18 wasn't good enough.

[AQIS Boigu]

They also went to Karachi for interviews years ago and that was a waste of time

[Busbitch]

Tip of the iceberg in that part of the world.

[anxiao]

My letter to the DFO at the time of the KHI interviews contained words along the lines that, "One does not go to Nigeria for your banking nor Bangladesh for your dentistry." Perhaps these days that is too much for the sensitive luvvies, but it was based on good work from NASA and Geert Hofstede.

[Dan Winterland]

Vietnam suspends 27 Pakistani pilots.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27300/Vietnam_Suspends_27_Pakistani_Pilots_Working_in_its_Airlines #.XvmHFCniu70

[BusyB]

Perhaps we should offload some Fake Managers there!!!!

[anxiao]

A story from the past on this subject which shows how naive we were in those days.

In Hong Kong as many of you know there was and is the ICAC, the Independent Commission Against Corruption. One of their remits was to ensure that all licences issued by the government were correctly issued and relevant, and any qualifications for that licence, and indeed the holder of that licence was all legitimate.

My memory fails me but I think it was in about 1988 that the ICAC realised that the CAA issued licences, and were part of the government. So they set up an internal inquiry as to the veracity of these documents. Apart from giving the CAA licencing section a hard time, telling them to put their affairs in order and make it more like an ISO 9001 administration, they came to the airlines to see how we renewed licences every 6 months or year with the Instrument Rating. When it got to the bit in the briefing room where the candidate hands over his licence before the test for checking the two ICAC guys became vary animated. "Do you check the licence against the ID card? No we said, and the licence itself did not have a photo ID. "How you know this the right person?" and we made mumblings about rostering and small airline etc.

It was one of their big concerns with the airline procedures. They said it could be the guy's brother taking the test, and cheekily he said "Cos you know we all look the same to you". Apparently they used to have massive problems with bus licences and HGV licences at testing as most people used to send a friend. They assumed it happened in the airlines.

We never did get to cross check the Hong Kong ID card against the licence of the candidate. But as the airline got larger and I did not even recognise the managers anymore I think it might have shown that we were serious about fraudulent testing.

FWIW

[Flying Clog]

Bloody hell anxiao. That is a very, very good point, and interesting story.

To be fair, it has never crossed my mind to check the licence against the staff ID in the sim briefing room.

It just never occurred to me. Most of us on my fleet in hkg know each other, so it would be difficult to pull off. And also, due to inherent ingrained professionalism, it would never occur to many to even try.

But in a faceless large airline, especially with a blind eye, your story could happen! Especially when corruption, and lying about every possible thing, is a multi day occurrence, and ingrained. I could see that scenario playing out, indeed.

Ban PIA from all airspace I say, until there is an external audit.

[VR-HFX]

"Catch Me If You Can" on steroids! Certainly there were a few folk around in the dim dark past that had a lot of "Mosquito" hours from the dark continent.

[cxorcist]

Perhaps we should offload some Fake Managers there!!!!
Or perhaps some fake trainers who apparently think they can teach quite literally anyone, regardless of experience, to fly big jets.

[Dan Winterland]

The EASA licence holder also has to carry a recognised form of photo ID for it to be considered valid.

[anxiao]

Dan, the photo ID is a start, and is better than nothing, but we need a more robust system. A good mate of mine in the 1970s was a redcap in BA and wore his wife's photo ID card for years going in and out of Heathrow. She was Nigerian Hausa. He was good Saxon stock.

I realise that in most airlines, even in dodgy countries with poor oversight, there is a low risk of fraud. But there are countries in ICAO that are well known for providing false documentation for aviation. We here are on about pilots licences, as it is a pilots web site but you have read here of the appalling problem with maintenance licences. And then you get to the licencing of airfields, airworthiness, security, anywhere that requires a government "certificate" to operate.

The system is Broke. It needs fixing. In the meantime all we can do at the coal face is keep our eyes open and use what powers we have left as pilots to inform the people in our organisations who have no knowledge of the scams out there of what to look out for. I think we both remember the two simulator instructors who were inducted and employed by HR as pilots and did a wonderful job in the ground school and simulator. (Flight Operations had been taken out of the interview process some months before by a non pilot HR director who said it was his position to ensure who was hired and fired in the airline). It was only on base training that it was realised that neither had been in an aircraft for many years and had lied their way into the right hand seat.

BTW I still love your handle, being from Yorkshire and all that.

[Cool banana]

What about the fake Captain, Mr Anthony Ortolan that worked for HK Express, as a Captain even approved by the HKCAD as a Postholder for Flight Safety Technical Manager, when he had no command time and was previously working for First Officer with Vietjet, latest rumour is this french guy is apparently working for Volotea as a Captain. Sounds like this HKCAD didn't inform EASA about this guy forging fake Left Seat/Command time.

[krismiler]

It was not unknown in the maritime industry for forged/dodgy credentials from third level countries to be used to acquire genuine certificates from second level countries. These were much more acceptable when seeking employment, didn't ring any alarm bells and could be verified.

Unfortunately for many expat pilots who have been in the industry for two or three decades, background information can be difficult to verify. In some cases the original country no longer exists, records of exam passes have long since gone missing and the pilot concerned has passed through a number of different airlines and licensing authorities. It's much easier for new pilots to establish their pedigree these days and someone claiming 2000 hours total time with a single employer who is still in business and who learnt at a major flight school in a first world with his exam results on file with FAA/CAA/EASA won't cause the HR department any headaches when it comes to background checks.

Going back thirty years before records were computerised, and those employers listed on the CV have probably gone out of business is another matter altogether.

[Dan Winterland]

I discovered on a ramp check in the PRC that all the mainland licences are held on a central CAAC database and this is what the ramp inspectors will check first. Yet, they didn't like our digital manuals. I suspect licence forgery has been an issue in the PRC as well. I have a mate who develops block-chain systems. I mentioned a block-chain system would be ideal for internationally recognised qualifications such as aviation licences. It would help prevent fraud.

[Landflap]

Cripes, when needs must, the devil surely drives. Way back, you couldn't get close to CX if you had the disadvantage of being born in a former colony like British India. Much worse if you looked a bit dusky. You had to be blond, blue eyed and white skinned. Gosh, if you were, additionally, ex Mil, liked boats and wore your trouser leg half way up one leg, you were fast tracked. Today, I learn, CX tripping over themselves to recruit in the dark lands. Full circle. Gorra larf.

[krismiler]

Back in the 1980s, jet Captains were happy to join CX as F/Os, and they often had a pay rise over their previous job as well. Cathay was an old colonial club and membership was very selective, once you were accepted you enjoyed the full expat lifestyle until you retired well cashed up. It was THE top airline job in the world, the equivalent of FEDEX today.

[mngmt mole]

....and that succinctly explains just how far we've fallen. Good memories, but a sad outcome.