The true number of displaced (redundant) pilots

[crossingthepond]

With all of the news about pilots being made redundant (either compulsorily or voluntarily) across many carriers, I am curious as to the actual number of various type rated pilots who are now (or soon might be) without a job and will likely be looking into finding any seat they can in GA to keep their careers from falling out of the sky?
Essentially, how many extra "over-qualified" pilots are there now who will take up any upcoming GA vacancies, and thus likely stagnating any kind of movement within the industry for the foreseeable future?
Tiger A320/737: 220 - source: www.afap.**org**.au/media-releases/ArtMID/1603/ArticleID/178/all-of-virgins-220-tigerair-pilots-redundant-from-friday
QANTAS (fleets currently unknown): 220 - source: www.qantasnewsroom.**com**.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-post-covid-recovery-plan-and-equity-raising-for-a-stronger-future/
Jetstar: Included in QANTAS above until further information becomes available
Virgin: ?


Are there any other operators expecting redundancies or does anyone have better estimates for any numbers above?

My sincere condolences to the all-to-many of you who have been reduced to "just" a number above - you have lives and families to support and I wish you the very best whatever happens. I do think that it is still important to objectively look at how these displacements will change the landscape of aviation in Australia as a whole, and this thread hopes to serve as a guide to those who are considering the effects of all of this on their own careers, whether they are themselves displaced, stood down, still flying, or even in training.

Will keep updated with any new information anyone can provide (whether speculative or confirmed).

[oldm8ey]

Prob add about 500 from across the ditch (Air NZ and VANZ). A lot of kiwi pilots go to Aus for GA work.

[cbradio]

Lots of expats coming home I would think?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Can’t speak for the other airlines, but I doubt you will see any of the surplus 220 Qantas pilots actually being made redundant.

Most likely that number will easily be absorbed by retirements / VR - ie only those that choose to “retire”.

Also keep in mind, despite the naysayers, the cycle will continue, and will be in an uptrend in the next couple of years.

[Lapon]

Difficult to say just yet as so many are still technically employed but not working.

Talking to collegues who are affected suggests that very few intend to head back to GA, certainly the entry level GA scene (I dont personally know of any). I think any lack of opportunity/progression at that end of town will be due to the fact there is nobody moving up to be replaced, rather than people shuffling back down.
I dont belive its pride stopping them, rather most airline guys/girls who have been made redundant are now a bit older and have estiblished lives in the major centres and for what they would get paid (certainly at the smaller end of GA) its not worth the upheaval of moving.

As with every bust there will be another boom greater than the last one, and within the next five years most who lost thier jobs and really want to stay flying will be back at it.

[Chairmans Lounge]

Lots of expats coming home I would think?

Lots of China contacts torn up since COVID kicked off, plus 600 odd EK pilots sacked recently. Some will likely return to Oz.

[JoeTripodi]

I would rather jump off a cliff than return to GA.

[Capt Fathom]

I would rather jump off a cliff than return to GA.
What GA ....?

[neville_nobody]

Exactly. Unlike when Ansett went broke there was still a large GA market that Ansett guys found their way into. These days there are very few GA jobs that airline pilots would migrate to. I would takes a guess and say that the whole GA market has probably almost halved in size in the last 20 years.

My guess will be that the majority of people retrenched in this round will probably leave the industry unless there is an immediate economic upswing next year. People just can't wait around for years on end for a flying job. Especially those who have spent the first 10 years of their career already playing that game.

[Fujiroll76]

From initial reports..I would agree.

Of the 220 pilots flagged, 190 are targeted to come from QF (30 from JQ)

165 already shown interest in the first 24hrs...30 to hit 65 this year...150 approx in the following 3 years.

With the super complications and the 380 given 3 years, Id say the number needed would be surpassed...plenty 380 drivers over 60

[Ragnor]

Already made Pilots redundant JQNZ Thursday. Email today the company want a side EBA for how long no body knows, negotiating starts July 2nd. It will definitely get worse before it gets better.

On International AJ said thats canned so why would they need an international CEO, surely the domestic could step up and do a few extra hours money saved right there. Gareth Evans runs both at JQ

[Compylot]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

[dr dre]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

Ahhh it’s you again......

Btw there has never really been a mass transition of airline pilots back to GA since like, forever, certainly not now as it’s still only just beginning, so I don’t know how you can say “many just don’t make the cut”. It’s more your assumptions and prejudices which make you think that airline pilots won’t make the cut. An aircraft is an aircraft, I’m sure after a bit of refamiliarisation most pilots, even long time airline pilots will “make the cut”.

And if you looked inside one of today’s light aircraft, even pistons, you’d probably be surprised at the level of automation and avionics inside of one.

[Fujiroll76]

Already made Pilots redundant JQNZ Thursday. Email today the company want a side EBA for how long no body knows, negotiating starts July 2nd. It will definitely get worse before it gets better.

On International AJ said thats canned so why would they need an international CEO, surely the domestic could step up and do a few extra hours money saved right there. Gareth Evans runs both at JQ


Any numbers on how many pilots or who? Older or junior..didn’t a few JQNZ Dash drivers only recently head over?

[brokenagain]

Ahhh it’s you again......

Btw there has never really been a mass transition of airline pilots back to GA since like, forever, certainly not now as it’s still only just beginning, so I don’t know how you can say “many just don’t make the cut”. It’s more your assumptions and prejudices which make you think that airline pilots won’t make the cut. An aircraft is an aircraft, I’m sure after a bit of refamiliarisation most pilots, even long time airline pilots will “make the cut”.

And if you looked inside one of today’s light aircraft, even pistons, you’d probably be surprised at the level of automation and avionics inside of one.

Hook, line and sinker...

[dr dre]

165 already shown interest in the first 24hrs...30 to hit 65 this year...150 approx in the following 3 years.

With the super complications and the 380 given 3 years, Id say the number needed would be surpassed...plenty 380 drivers over 60

I’d predict it would also affect anyone above the age of 60 on those fleets. Maybe even 57/58 depending on ability to retire. It may just have to be a slightly less comfortable retirement (but still far more comfortable than 95% of the population) than they were expecting.

If you know you are going to have a minimum of 3 years off work, almost certainly not in another flying role, then why come back for what will be quite an extensive refamiliarisation not just to your previous role but to Aviation, then probably an endorsement onto another aircraft type, only to fly it for a year or two on what is probably going to be a lower wage and conditions than you were used to, before hanging up the boots anyway?

After having a few months off, realising there is a world out there beyond the job, beyond jet lag, fatigue, sims, a lot may just take the money and run.

[ACMS]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

:rolleyes: worried we might show you a thing or two......:ugh:

After all the experience and training we’ve received from the Airlines ( CRM, team building, human factors, DG’s, SOPS........the list goes on ) I’d venture to suggest we’d make much safer GA Pilot’s now than we did years ago........not even close. Obviously we would need a refresher, but it wouldn’t take long.....

But.......would we want to bother....?

[cloudsurfng]

A heavy single?

[Chad Gates]

From initial reports..I would agree.

Of the 220 pilots flagged, 190 are targeted to come from QF (30 from JQ)

165 already shown interest in the first 24hrs...30 to hit 65 this year...150 approx in the following 3 years.

With the super complications and the 380 given 3 years, Id say the number needed would be surpassed...plenty 380 drivers over 60

Fuji. That 165 you say have expressed an interest, is that for VR? Has something been comunicated to guys who are elidgable? If so, that's a great start.

[Icarus2001]

Putting my head on a chopping block here but it is possible that in two to three years time, having lost pilots to early retirement and lost some back to their old industry or profession, coupled with very little training for CPL or ATPL guys due no incentive of jobs, we will face a GREATER pilot shortage than that which existed at the close of 2019. I know it sounds like a very positive few but depending on the return to international travel it is one possible outcome. I mean who is going to consider starting pilot training now with a view to CPL? Older guys that may have had another 2-4 years to go may be taken out of the pool early.

[Ragnor]

Putting my head on a chopping block here but it is possible that in two to three years time, having lost pilots to early retirement and lost some back to their old industry or profession, coupled with very little training for CPL or ATPL guys due no incentive of jobs, we will face a GREATER pilot shortage than that which existed at the close of 2019. I know it sounds like a very positive few but depending on the return to international travel it is one possible outcome. I mean who is going to consider starting pilot training now with a view to CPL? Older guys that may have had another 2-4 years to go may be taken out of the pool early.

One of the most logical thinking post in a while.

[Fujiroll76]

Fuji. That 165 you say have expressed an interest, is that for VR? Has something been comunicated to guys who are elidgable? If so, that's a great start.

Nothing official yet. I’m told a few weeks away from VR EOI with the conditions attached.

As Dr Dre mentioned..there’s plenty of thinking to do for many of the older guys / gals. Take a VR now and retire happily or remain stood down indefinitely and be forced to leave come 65.

But yes 165 was the figure going around the group on Friday afternoon who had.

[Climb150]

Putting my head on a chopping block here but it is possible that in two to three years time, having lost pilots to early retirement and lost some back to their old industry or profession, coupled with very little training for CPL or ATPL guys due no incentive of jobs, we will face a GREATER pilot shortage than that which existed at the close of 2019. I know it sounds like a very positive few but depending on the return to international travel it is one possible outcome. I mean who is going to consider starting pilot training now with a view to CPL? Older guys that may have had another 2-4 years to go may be taken out of the pool early.
There was never a pilot shortage in Australia

[neville_nobody]

Putting my head on a chopping block here but it is possible that in two to three years time, having lost pilots to early retirement and lost some back to their old industry or profession, coupled with very little training for CPL or ATPL guys due no incentive of jobs, we will face a GREATER pilot shortage than that which existed at the close of 2019. I know it sounds like a very positive few but depending on the return to international travel it is one possible outcome. I mean who is going to consider starting pilot training now with a view to CPL? Older guys that may have had another 2-4 years to go may be taken out of the pool early.

I would agree but probably more of a 5+ year time frame. Long enough for more retirements compounded with the lack of training additional to those who have left the industry due lack of work.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Since when??? Noone has gone back to GA since 2001.

[Icarus2001]

There was never a pilot shortage in Australia Well we can play semantics but however you want to characterise the fact that guys were going from a piston twin to RHS jet without the traditional turboprop stage. My company (and others) is recruiting pilots with hours and type experience that would not have got them an interview ten years ago.

[PoppaJo]

Putting my head on a chopping block here but it is possible that in two to three years time, having lost pilots to early retirement and lost some back to their old industry or profession, coupled with very little training for CPL or ATPL guys due no incentive of jobs, we will face a GREATER pilot shortage than that which existed at the close of 2019. I know it sounds like a very positive few but depending on the return to international travel it is one possible outcome. I mean who is going to consider starting pilot training now with a view to CPL? Older guys that may have had another 2-4 years to go may be taken out of the pool early.
I think there will be oversupply for most of this decade, will also be a wave of returning expats who have also been laid off right over the world, many are already back here.

I know a few who have gone back to GA in order to pay bills and stay in the industry. They are aware that they are joining the progression ladder again and will earn a quarter of their Airbus or Boeing salary for the next 5-10 years. On the flip side you have GA pilots who have been laid off, and I know some who have gone for other GA jobs but have lost out to a Tiger pilot etc. These guys are young, starting families, most will end up just walking away.

Self funding CPLs will be non existent in the not too far future. A operator up north in the medium/long term trying to find a Darwin or Cairns trained CPL IFR Pilot will need to look elsewhere and spend more on localised training. Those sort of CVs were highly regarded back in my day and at the top of the pile when we were sifting through applicants to interview. We had the luxury of being specific on what type of CV we wanted. Now the pile is largely 200 hour hopefuls from down south, with some questionable training operators behind them.

I have no idea how operators expect to even find quality or suitable applicants in the long term (15-20 year mark). I’ve had this debate with senior managers within my operator about medium to long term hiring plans, and having been apart of working groups on the topic in the past, the only solution managers have is increasing the company’s leverage in the cadet business. These guys are the check and trainers of the future.

[swh]

There was never a pilot shortage in Australia

A wise person once said the pilots stood tall, the manager was short.

[-41]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

Why don't you commence a sermon with respect to the negatives of shock cooling on descent. Or perhaps pontificate about how to make a CTAF call to your exacting personal standards. Must be hard work carrying that chip around everywhere.

[Judd]

Why don't you commence a sermon with respect to the negatives of shock cooling on descent. Or perhaps pontificate about how to make a CTAF call to your exacting personal standards. Must be hard work carrying that chip around everywhere.


Well put indeed. I remember going through that rubbish years ago. I had been retrenched from airline flying and was interviewed for a job flying an MU2. The then chief pilot gave me the bum's rush saying I wouldn't be able able to handle single pilot IFR and in any case would expect too much in terms of aircraft serviceability. In other words he wanted a clean maintenance release from his pilots.
I made the point that having flown Mustangs in the RAAF single pilot IFR including formation flying in cloud I figured I could cope in IMC without an autopilot. . I didn't get the job.

Two years later I was re-hired by my former airline back on the 737. Guess who was my first copilot? It was the MU2 chief honcho who had interviewed me two years earlier.

-41 is online now Report Post (https://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=10822754)

[das Uber Soldat]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.
hahahaha.

10/10, solid troll.

[runway16]

You have to ask how many have got themselves in so deep financially that they have opted out of this life?

[Dogma]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

What a chump statement.. its sweaty and less well paid but GA flying is very achievable and slow compared to high intensity jet passenger transport flight ops

[Duck Pilot]

You have to ask how many have got themselves in so deep financially that they have opted out of this life?

Very valid question.

The mining downturn in WA a few years ago left a few people financially exposed after the rug was unexpectedly pulled from beneath them.

I don’t believe that many will go back to GA unless they have just come out of it or they have a good relationship with a GA operator, and aren’t in debit up to their eyeballs.

I’m a casualty of this mess, stood down until further notice. I don’t think I will ever return to the airline due to obvious reasons.

[Ragnor]

If I’m let go, I won’t go back to GA, been there done that sacrificed more than my share. We are settled love where we live we won’t be uprooting for a shi!!y GA job on a Baron again. I’ll find something else maybe even Something Monday to Friday I’ll get to go to all the football games on the weekend. Life will go on without Aviation.

Come Tuesday slot of questions might be answered for Aviation. Borders to open or remain closed.

[Bend alot]

A heavy single?


Pretty much every GA piston twin, with a failed engine - empty or full, they tend to be a tad heavy to climb.

[Gazza mate]

Is the pay still sh1t in GA? No thanks. I would rather do time as a driving instructor than a flying instructor. Terms, conditions and pay twice as good.

[Green.Dot]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

I think I know what you are getting at, maybe it could have been worded better though. People with the right attitude and some level of flying skill will always do well in GA or anywhere else. Turn up with the wrong attitude and expecting the same working conditions and wage we have all been accustomed to in an air conditioned jet (with HEPA filters of course!) and GA will spit you out, just like any job right now. And it works the other way, GA turning up at an RPT airline gig. Good luck all

[neville_nobody]

People with the right attitude and some level of flying skill will always do well in GA or anywhere else. Turn up with the wrong attitude and expecting the same working conditions and wage we have all been accustomed to in an air conditioned jet (with HEPA filters of course!) and GA will spit you out, just like any job right now

The 'Right Attitude' in GA is very open to interpretation. Some of the worst pilots I have ever seen had the 'right attitude'.

[George Glass]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.


Ha! That gave me a real chuckle.
I had 3500 hours in GA , from a C206 to a Citation and more in between, before I landed an airline job. I could downtrain in a heartbeat if I had to.
But here’s the thing.......I’d rather poke my eye out with on HB pencil than go back to GA. A mate of mine makes more as a heavy vehicle instructor than I ever did in GA.
Most of us who have managed to keep wife no.1 and avoided all those wacko investment opportunities over the journey will simply take the package and fade into the distance.

[Blueskymine]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

You obviously haven’t been inside a 737 then!

Most GA aircraft are more advanced.

At the end of the day when you disconnect and fly the aeroplane it’s no different to a Cessna. It’s just going a lot quicker over the fence.

And yes, flying a turboprop or a piston twin around was so simple and easy, it was a holiday compared to the complexities of an airline operation, the knowledge required, stress and cyclical training. Not to mention job security.

[non_state_actor]

You obviously haven’t been inside a 737 then! Most GA aircraft are more advanced.

Yep. Not to mention the 737 flys an approach faster than the 10 000' cruise speed of GA aircraft!!

[WillieTheWimp]

Can someone tell me what a heavy single is - besides a paradox

[Blueskymine]

Can someone tell me what a heavy single is - besides a paradox

Someone who’s never left GA, gotten pretty fat and never or is currently, not hitched.

Or what a flying school instructor refers to a 200 series Cessna.

[Chairmans Lounge]

Can someone tell me what a heavy single is - besides a paradox

One operated above it’s MTOW on a consistent basis

[Stationair8]

Not to mention the other great terms used in GA, including do you have any heavy twin time and F/O time doesn’t count in my opinion.

[Angle of Attack]

I’m assuming a heavy Single is anything other than a C172 or Piper Warrior type,.....C210, Cherokee 6, Bonanza? Etc?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I never flew those light twin 777s but I used to fly a 575 tonne quad - til I got terminated a few weeks ago. I'll take my chances on a "HEAVY SINGLE" - Compylot = :ugh:

[WillieTheWimp]

I never flew those light twin 777s but I used to fly a 575 tonne quad - til I got terminated a few weeks ago. I'll take my chances on a "HEAVY SINGLE" - Compylot = :ugh:

Not on Compylot’s watch. You would struggle with the ‘complexity of a light aircraft’

[Australopithecus]

The aeroplane I fly when on vacation has twin radial engines, is a taildragger, and has 1950’s instruments and no autopilot. Its a piece of cake compared to my actual airline job. Clearly some people assume that a modern jet cockpit has Laz-e-boy seats and a snooze button.

[tipan13]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/517b806a_e538_43b3_891e_e9ed7b22d3c4_9444c88fda010c7549d0c39 cdd4cb78a90f3effe.jpeg
Anybody that’s flown The Slug would confirm this is a heavy single !

[Compylot]

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying information I've received from some very senior GA operators concerning the quality of candidates they've come across of late.

One thing that they did say is that out of all the Jet jockey airline pilots swinging for GA portions, the candidates that do stick out are ex cadets.

Even with minimal or even no GA experience it's the ex Cadets that have really shown ability and potential.

Apparently the rigorous selection and training regime cadets are known for gives them an advantage in learning the complexities of complex GA aircraft and they are being head hunted by GA operators looking for reliable, intelligent and enthusiastic operators

[non_state_actor]

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying information I've received from some very senior GA operators concerning the quality of candidates they've come across of late.

One thing that they did say is that out of all the Jet jockey airline pilots swinging for GA portions, the candidates that do stick out are ex cadets.

Even with minimal or even no GA experience it's the ex Cadets that have really shown ability and potential.

Apparently the rigorous selection and training regime cadets are known for gives them an advantage in learning the complexities of complex GA aircraft and they are being head hunted by GA operators looking for reliable, intelligent and enthusiastic operators


Yes very funny, well done.:D

[Seaview2]

Thanks. Needed the laugh 😂

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

With modern aircraft being very easy to fly and the over reliance on automation, ex airline pilots have really struggled to adapt back to the complexity of operating light aircraft as a single pilot and many just don't make the cut.

Flying a heavy single or turbocharged piston twin is a strenuous exercise and sadly years of watching the autopilot have rendered most Airline pilots incapable of managing such aircraft again.

[LostWanderer]

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying information I've received from some very senior GA operators concerning the quality of candidates they've come across of late.

One thing that they did say is that out of all the Jet jockey airline pilots swinging for GA portions, the candidates that do stick out are ex cadets.

Even with minimal or even no GA experience it's the ex Cadets that have really shown ability and potential.

Apparently the rigorous selection and training regime cadets are known for gives them an advantage in learning the complexities of complex GA aircraft and they are being head hunted by GA operators looking for reliable, intelligent and enthusiastic operators

Haha! That is gold!

[Overspeed1]

When I started training in 2006 all people could tell me was what a great time I was starting my career, jobs a plenty etc. then in 2007 the gfc hit and everything turned to ****e...

Plenty of people quit training but those of us willing to listen to the advice of the old boys got told to stick with it and the industry will sort itself out. They were right.

If someone who just started training asked me what to do I’d give them the above advice because unless you’ve got 90k sitting in the bank it’s gona be couple of years before you get that CPL anyway and in a few years there will be jobs a plenty again, especially in the entry level stuff that most of the guys getting shafted during the current downturn won’t be willing to take.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

learning the complexities of complex GA aircraft

Is that you, Russell Coight?

[j3pipercub]

Cmon all,

Compylot has been trollin since ‘09 and doing a rather good job of it. Some here bit hook, line, sinker, rod, bait box and half the jetty.

j3

[George Glass]

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying information I've received from some very senior GA operators concerning the quality of candidates they've come across of late.

One thing that they did say is that out of all the Jet jockey airline pilots swinging for GA portions, the candidates that do stick out are ex cadets.

Even with minimal or even no GA experience it's the ex Cadets that have really shown ability and potential.

Apparently the rigorous selection and training regime cadets are known for gives them an advantage in learning the complexities of complex GA aircraft and they are being head hunted by GA operators looking for reliable, intelligent and enthusiastic operators

Yeah , for once I agree j3
Sucked in......

[dr dre]

When I started training in 2006 all people could tell me was what a great time I was starting my career, jobs a plenty etc. then in 2007 the gfc hit and everything turned to ****e...

Plenty of people quit training but those of us willing to listen to the advice of the old boys got told to stick with it and the industry will sort itself out. They were right.

It’s hard to pick the bottom of cyclic wave of pilot hiring, and it’s even harder to calculate what the employment market will be like in 12-18 months when you do graduate with all your qualifications. Truth is if you delay it until things pick up and don’t start your training until you see newly graduated CPLs are being vacuumed up as soon as they finish their training then it’s too late. It does seem counter intuitive to begin flight training when hundreds of current pilots are stood down without work.

In a way it’s a gamble, but so are many things in life. If this downturn causes a lot of current pilots to retire or leave the industry, and a lot of those who were planning to begin training in the next year now decline to, a quick turnaround in 18 months when a pilot who starts training today finishes their CPL will put them in a great position. Or it could be the opposite. Like I said it’s all a gamble. In a recession a lot of other professions and industries will be in the same boat. There’s really no such thing as a safe bet in any job these days

[Skipname]

I think you'll find that Airline pilots aren't particularly sought after for GA gigs even if they might of done it in a past life.

The statement above is true, at least at my outfit anyway.

I am involved in a minimal capacity in the recruitment process of a GA operator flying light multi engine piston and turbo-prop aircrafts. We have around 40 pilots and non is an ex airline pilot; and that is not for lack of candidates. We have 1 ex biz jet pilot and the rest are ex RAF or GA pilots.

The are two main reasons for that:
-it’s much harder to train airline pilots than it is to train ex RAF or GA pilots to fly our aircrafts in our environment
-Attitude; obviously the working environment for a GA operator is different than the environment of an airline and many ex airline pilots find it difficult or unwilling to adapt to the new environment.

We were actively recruiting when Flybe went bust and we received many applications from their former pilots. Some of them made it to the interview stage and out of all those invited only one got a job offer. They all struggled with the last part of the interview which is a flight in a multi engine piston aircraft.

We are not automatically rejecting all the airline pilots applications but it is considered a disadvantage.

[SixDemonBag]

They all struggled with the last part of the interview which is a flight in a multi engine piston aircraft.


Was that a Heavy or Light piston twin?

[dctPub]

The statement above is true, at least at my outfit anyway.

I am involved in a minimal capacity in the recruitment process of a GA operator flying light multi engine piston and turbo-prop aircrafts. We have around 40 pilots and non is an ex airline pilot; and that is not for lack of candidates. We have 1 ex biz jet pilot and the rest are ex RAF or GA pilots.

The are two main reasons for that:
-it’s much harder to train airline pilots than it is to train ex RAF or GA pilots to fly our aircrafts in our environment
-Attitude; obviously the working environment for a GA operator is different than the environment of an airline and many ex airline pilots find it difficult or unwilling to adapt to the new environment.

We were actively recruiting when Flybe went bust and we received many applications from their former pilots. Some of them made it to the interview stage and out of all those invited only one got a job offer. They all struggled with the last part of the interview which is a flight in a multi engine piston aircraft.

We are not automatically rejecting all the airline pilots applications but it is considered a disadvantage.

Lmao a European here to lecture Aussies about GA.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

Ahhhhh that old chestnut. GA vs Airlines and Airlines vs GA.

Never gets old.

[Meester proach]

Obviously trolling,
but I’ve thought about it and I’d take the 400kts slower progress to allow my brain some time to figure it all out...

[Gazza mate]

When I started training in 2006 all people could tell me was what a great time I was starting my career, jobs a plenty etc. then in 2007 the gfc hit and everything turned to ****e...

Plenty of people quit training but those of us willing to listen to the advice of the old boys got told to stick with it and the industry will sort itself out. They were right.

If someone who just started training asked me what to do I’d give them the above advice because unless you’ve got 90k sitting in the bank it’s gona be couple of years before you get that CPL anyway and in a few years there will be jobs a plenty again, especially in the entry level stuff that most of the guys getting shafted during the current downturn won’t be willing to take.

The best time to get into aviation is during a crisis if you look back through history. It’s like buying the dip during a share market crash.

[-41]

does GA still exist ?

ohh to be paid again by the hour Air switch

[ozbiggles]

This is the mother of all dips. 89 was probably the last time there was this many spare pilots in Australia and that was a local thing, not worldwide.

[ShotOne]

As a 31year (UK) pilot I now have more ex than employed pilots in my immediate circle. Over 1100 from BA. 102 last week from Jet2, 30%ish from easy and VS, all hopefully subject to mitigations currently being negotiated. Very relevant thread, pity it’s been sidetracked by a couple of chip-on-shoulder GA types. You have an entire GA section to fill your boots

[ScepticalOptomist]

They all struggled with the last part of the interview which is a flight in a multi engine piston aircraft.


Probably because in EASA land most of the applicants had never flown anything but what the flight school had, and then ended up RHS in an A320 etc with a couple of hundred hours total time.

Going from that back to a GA twin would be very difficult if they had no previous GA experience to fall back on.

Things are a little different down here in Oz.

[ShortfinalFred]

You get one supportive post from someone in the UK and it’s Bash a Pom day! Sure, we all did 200 hours in a hedge hopper then walked into a jet. Right....what do you know about it....’Mate’.....Sad.

[j3pipercub]

fred,

Quite sure I saw the word most the Optimists post. Most, not all. Are you saying that isn’t the case in Europe?

Not sure I can see where anyone was ‘bashed’ either. Anyone who had a different opinion mentioned Europe or EASA, not the UK. Trying to make it sound like this is ‘Pom bashing’ makes you look silly.

All things aside, I think the situation may be looking up. I hear there may be some pretty good contacts coming up in Pakistan. They have a pilot shortage over there apparently?

j3

[galdian]

[QUOTE=j3pipercub;10824841]fred,


All things aside, I think the situation may be looking up. I hear there may be some pretty good contacts coming up in Pakistan. They have a pilot shortage over there apparently?
j3[/QUOTE

Yeah, nah - plenty of pilots, lack of (credible?) paperwork at times. ;)

[ShortfinalFred]

“Probably because in EASA land most of the applicants had never flown anything but what the flight school had, and then ended up RHS in an A320 etc with a couple of hundred hours total time.”

I disagree with this sweeping assertion based on twenty eight years in professional aviation here in Europe. The copilots I flew with came from a multitude of backgrounds: ex military, ex GA, ex regional, ex low cost. There were quite a few who had been to an ‘airline academy’ but not the majority I would say.

Call me all the names you like J3, but the person who wrote the opinion that your ‘Optimistic’ (sic) correspondent dismissed out of hand (‘bashed’) identified as being a Brit, hence my comment. I also disagree with ‘Optmist’s’ assertion that ‘things are different in Australia’. You have your own schools (FTA Adelaide to name but one) turning out trainees of the 200 hour variety and I’m sure not all of them only went into GA.

I’d add that many of the co-pilots I flew with who had come out of schools like that were highly talented pilots in their own right and I’ve no doubt that they’d adapt right back into a GA environment very well. I therefore strongly disagree with the dismissive tone of ‘Optimists’ post in that score too.

Finally, all of my nieces have emigrated to Australia, a wonderful country full of outgoing, hospitable, friendly people. It’s always a pleasure to visit them. They and their families love it there and I can see why.

[Look Mum - no hands]

Military vs civil, charter vs instructing, GA vs airlines..... The comparisons and arguments have gone around for decades, and everyone has an opinion.

It seems like an academic argument at the moment though - do people really think that either:
1. There are hundreds of GA positions vacant, or
2. Those pilots with GA positions are about to voluntarily leave en-masse, or
3. GA employers are about to give their existing employees the boot to free up spaces for others, whatever experience they may bring, or
4. There is a huge expansion of GA just around the corner.....

The reality is that this has affected almost all sectors of the industry to some extent.

[dr dre]

It seems like an academic argument at the moment though - do people really think that either:
1. There are hundreds of GA positions vacant, or
2. Those pilots with GA positions are about to voluntarily leave en-masse, or
3. GA employers are about to give their existing employees the boot to free up spaces for others, whatever experience they may bring, or
4. There is a huge expansion of GA just around the corner.....

The reality is that this has affected almost all sectors of the industry to some extent.

A quick browse of AFAP Latest Jobs shows a couple of heli jobs, a handful of instructing jobs, a few Chief Pilot jobs and maybe or two entry level GA jobs. Apart from that it’s sparse. A lot of entry level GA work is tourism, so that will suffer in the short term. Instructing jobs will suffer due to prospective career students being put off by a downturn in the industry and and private students from a recession. The one saving grace could be instructing of foreign students. Especially with the predicted growth in Asia in the future Asian airlines will probably assess they’ll need to more pilots in 18 months time after the pandemic so time to train them now, and if we were smart in this country we’d encourage as much foreign training as possible.

[blow.n.gasket]

I believe any talk / hope of a recovery from the Covid induced global economic hibernation particularly with reference to Aviation is at best optimistic if not downright naive!
If the following snippet from an economic article I was reading is any indication of the current state of affairs then to use a famous Australian vernacular:
“We’ll all be Rooned ,said Hanrahan before the year is out “

“: Over 80% of the world’s nations were in recession at the same time during the Great Depression in the early 1930s. The figure reached 60% right after the Second World War, as war industries demobilised, but domestic consumption had not yet ramped up. The 2008 global financial crisis put just over 60% of the world’s nations in recession at once.

Today the figure is 92%, the highest reading ever. That’s worse than both world wars, the Great Depression, and the 2008 crisis. And, that’s 92% of a much larger global economy that existed in the prior episodes.

Not only is this horrific in terms of absolute damage, it means there is no strong economic bloc to pull the world out of recession. There is no source of demand to help producing countries get off the mat.

This is one more reason why the current state of affairs is not just a technical recession; it’s a world historic depression that will persist for years to come.“

[Pugilistic Animus]

The aeroplane I fly when on vacation has twin radial engines, is a taildragger, and has 1950’s instruments and no autopilot. Its a piece of cake compared to my actual airline job. Clearly some people assume that a modern jet cockpit has Laz-e-boy seats and a snooze button.
Beechcraft E18?