New Aeromed Role for BAe 146 CC3

[RAFEngO74to09]

2 x aircraft modified - ZE707 and ZE708 - which now have no currently declared OSD.

https://www.key.aero/article/raf-adapts-bae-146-cc3s-medical-use

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x533/image_35b8b75adda3c26c7b80f9c0deff94b1473917ea.png

[air pig]

2 x aircraft modified - ZE707 and ZE708 - which now have no currently declared OSD.

https://www.key.aero/article/raf-adapts-bae-146-cc3s-medical-use

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x533/image_35b8b75adda3c26c7b80f9c0deff94b1473917ea.png

This sits nicely between tactical Critical Care Air Support Team (CCAST) and strategic CCAST requirements. It does mean in time critical cases they don't have to use a Voyager for instance from Gibralter in a C130J or A400M maybe 4 hours in an 146 2.5 hours. Also, has a greater ceiling compared to the C130J or the A400M giving a smoother ride for the patient in general. Doesn't sound a lot but it is also the kit is Voyager compatible.for the stretcher support arms etc. I suspect they will remain at Northolt rather than Brize Norton.

[KBW10101]

This sits nicely between tactical Critical Care Air Support Team (CCAST) and strategic CCAST requirements. It does mean in time critical cases they don't have to use a Voyager for instance from Gibralter in a C130J or A400M maybe 4 hours in an 146 2.5 hours. Also, has a greater ceiling compared to the C130J or the A400M giving a smoother ride for the patient in general. Doesn't sound a lot but it is also the kit is Voyager compatible.for the stretcher support arms etc. I suspect they will remain at Northolt rather than Brize Norton.

Awful serviceability rates though - hence why they got taken off the Kippion shuttles.

Un-sustainable when they are constantly grounded in pieces. So probably not good for an aeromed shout either.

knee jerk to the C-17 being on its last legs and unable to support / sustain CCAST tasks?

[Ken Scott]

air pig: the performance of the 146 is actually rather similar to that of the A400M: the former is cruise at M0.7, max ceiling 35,000ft, the latter M0.68 at a max 37,000ft, so hardly a substantial advantage and unlikely to shave 90 mins off the flight time from Gib - UK. Beats the C130J by a significant margin though.

[Herod]

When I was flying the 146, admittedly many years ago, the max cruise level was 310. Has this been increased, and if so, by what means?

[Green Flash]

Maybe a couple of 737 combis (fleet commonality with P8 and Wedge) instead? Buyers market just now.

[air pig]

Awful serviceability rates though - hence why they got taken off the Kippion shuttles.

Un-sustainable when they are constantly grounded in pieces. So probably not good for an aeromed shout either.

knee jerk to the C-17 being on its last legs and unable to support / sustain CCAST tasks?

What about the C604 which the company I work for use for air ambulance missions.

[Ken Scott]

When I was flying the 146, admittedly many years ago, the max cruise level was 310. Has this been increased, and if so, by what means?

Herod: figure of 35,000ft taken from that reliable source, Wikipedia, so it must be right!!

Ceiling for A400M is actually 40,000ft but limited in use by cabin altitude, maybe it was a similar deal for the 146?

[ORAC]

EASA certification is 31,000ft.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA-TCDS-A.182_Bae_146---AVRO_146_RJ-02-20102010.pdf

[OvertHawk]

What about the C604 which the company I work for use for air ambulance missions.

I'm sure it does fine for your company but the RAF does not have any of those and it seems like this process is about maximising the assets that they've got rather than acquiring new ones (and probably stems from someone in the 146 fleet trying to throw out a few reasons why the RAF should not get rid of them as they plan to do).

[Green Flash]

maximising the assets that they've got Could a re-worked Sentinal airframe or two do the job?

[walbut]

With regard to the HS146 conversion I am curious to know how it has been certified, are the changes embodied in the aircraft drawing set, is it referenced in all the other aircraft clearance documentation such as the safety case, and is it underwritten by the aircraft design authority, presumably now BAe Systems? Maybe I am unnecessarily concerned that someone might have decided its a quick easy option, the aircraft is soon going out of service, we don't need to document it with the full modification procedure etc.

I am always slightly nervous when something is adapted from another aircraft, in this case apparently some stanchions that attach to the floor on the Voyager. The cause of my nervousness goes back to the Buccaneer S Mk 2 cold weather trial in Fort Churchill in the early 70's. On the first trial the fuel flow proportioner hydraulic motor leaked from a garter seal after the aircraft had been cold soaked. Dowty, who made the motor, said we have an easy fix, use a carbon face seal as used on the Viggen proportioner motor. We don't need to test it, its already cleared down to -40 or some such figure. The mod was done on a couple of units and the following winter the aircraft went for a further cold weather trial. I can still remember my fellow systems engineer Graham Armitt, who was one of the HSA reps on the trial, ringing me up and ranting that the Effing proportioners leaking far worse than before, the effing floor is covered in effing hydraulic oil and everyone here is really pissed off. It turned out the Buccaneer proportioner motor had more end float and the static O ring held the carbon seal away from its mating face as the system started up, resulting in a massive hydraulic leak. The problem was subsequently fixed by a stronger spring and different seal material but we made sure Dowty cold chamber tested it before we fitted it to an aircraft. I learned about clearing things by analogy from the experience.

Walbut

[safetypee]

walbut, based on a few public photographs, the modification appears to be similar to the existing 'Combi' or 'Quick Change' versions of the civilian 146.

The cargo door, and freighter roller-floor, enable customised pallets to be loaded. For Commercial operations the pallets would either have rows of seats, or a quick change to pure freight. Seats off-loaded remaining fixed to pallets; then freight pallets / bins loaded as required (there was a horse-box version). There was as I recall, one aircraft with a fixed configuration of mixed 'fish tank' and seats.

For medical, passenger cabin services probably use existing fold-down overhead 'baggage racks', but these could be converted for specialist equipment and fixed in place.
The pallet option would enable a range of medical / passenger configurations.

For certification, medical pallets might be treated as 'cargo', plus local approval for any special fit, e.g oxygen tent, but the seat pallets, services, and door, would be as the existing certificated 'QC' aircraft.

[VX275]

2 x aircraft modified - ZE707 and ZE708 - which now have no currently declared OSD.

https://www.key.aero/article/raf-adapts-bae-146-cc3s-medical-use

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x533/image_35b8b75adda3c26c7b80f9c0deff94b1473917ea.png
Looking at that photograph I can't help thinking that unless they put a bit more effort into the design of the offload ramp there are going to be even more casualties to be cared for.

[thetimesreader84]

They also need a better solution than a Roller Flat Floor, unless the medics have strong ankles...

146 is probably good for domestic & near Europe (or its deployed equivalent), but much beyond that & it’s very much diminishing returns.

[air pig]

Looking at that photograph I can't help thinking that unless they put a bit more effort into the design of the offload ramp there are going to be even more casualties to be cared for.

Try loading a LJ35A with a stretcher sometime, now that is interesting.

[air pig]

Could a re-worked Sentinal airframe or two do the job?

FAI in Germany have two as air ambulances carrying up to three patients.

[dixi188]

IIRC the BAe 146 ceiling is 31000 ft and the later version, the RJ with slightly uprated engines, is 35000 ft.

[DCThumb]

Could a re-worked Sentinal airframe or two do the job?

The costs to rework Sentinel would be greater than buying a secondhand Global Express and doing the same work, so no!

[Plane Speaker]

The RJ ceiling was initially 310, then 330 and finally 350 with the upgraded pressurisation system. Early RJ's were still using a fair bit of 146 kit, which over the course of a few years was replaced as development occurred.

[NutLoose]

Try loading a LJ35A with a stretcher sometime, now that is interesting. I have seen that, or getting someone strapped on a stretcher out of a Seneca as I once witnessed, that involved tipping him on his side lol and levering him around the door frame.

[air pig]

I have seen that, or getting someone strapped on a stretcher out of a Seneca as I once witnessed, that involved tipping him on his side lol and levering him around the door frame.

Offloading an LJ35A isn't as bad as that, but have seen a stretcher stood uptight and twisted 90 degrees in the galley area of a B737 after coming through the door to get to the stretcher base in the main cabin.

[ivor toolbox]

Could a re-worked Sentinal airframe or two do the job?

Probably not without a substantial rework.
The door sill is too high and narrow for most stretchers.

Not to say it couldn't be done with enough £££

Ttfn

[NutLoose]

What surprises me is
https://www.key.aero/article/raf-adapts-bae-146-cc3s-medical-use

According to the service, the aircraft – serials ZE707 (c/n E2188) and ZE708 (c/n E2211) – were “adapted to carry medical patients in record time and at no cost,” being able to “transport critically ill patients and RAF medical staff for the first time.” The project was conducted through the air arm’s Astra programme, which aims to encourage innovation across the RAF.

This has been an amazing achievement in all areas bringing together [No 32 (TR) Squadron’s] residual capacity, [TMW’s] aeromedical evacuation (aeromed) [b]capability and the design, production and engineering skills of [the] Joint Air Delivery Test [and] Evaluation Unit

This project embodies the very spirit of Astra, using existing military aircraft in a dual-hatted role and optimising use of key defence assets. TMW have never delivered aeromed on the BAe 146 in this manner before and it has been achieved at zero cost and in record time by smart use of pre-existing, available assets,” Bland added.

The engineering work was conducted by the JADTEU at RAF Brize Norton, Oxfordshire. Within a fortnight of receiving the task, the unit had designed and produced a serviceable solution which then entered a prototype phase. The service states that the trials “determined the adaptations were suitable” for all forms of aeromed missions, including for use by the service’s Critical Care Air Support Team.

but it was particularly gratifying in this instance to be able to design, test and manufacture a solution

So this has been designed, prototypes made, tested and produced, then finished articles, produced and tested... all at NO COST? so they made them out of thin air? designed them without any input, tested them without any input and certified them all again with NO COST?? someones living in cloud cuckoo land....

[safetypee]

NutLoose,
More research confirms that the two CC3 aircraft were built and certificated as 146 QCs. (cf #13).
The play on words - 'no cost', could be seen as no additional (external) cost above a new role for which the aircraft is suited to undertake as a multi role, quick change aircraft..
The headline medical role could represent the in-house adaptation (JADTEU) of existing medical cabin modules used in other, older, aircraft types, by fitting the equipment onto self contained, quick-change pallets, opposed to requiring cabin refits on other aircraft.

Thus 'cost' is no more than a normal adaption and change of operational roles, for which the aircraft is ideal. Bean counters might play with offset cost-saving on other types, or increased productivity in their roles - more tanker capability, (or aircraft for HRH / Government use).

[air pig]

Probably not without a substantial rework.
The door sill is too high and narrow for most stretchers.

Not to say it couldn't be done with enough £££

Ttfn
There are commercially available stretcher hoists or ramps available for aircraft C604 or Global Express size. Aeromedical stretchers are about 2 feet wide, they are built for utility not comfort. The big problem the civilian industry faces is the repatriation of the obese in terms of strtcher load bearing capability, aircraft loading strategies and aircraft size, all have health safety and cost implications.

[ivor toolbox]

Try loading a LJ35A with a stretcher sometime, now that is interesting.

Or a 45!

Even better...a re role to normal passenger ops and back again!

Ttfn

[ivor toolbox]

There are commercially available stretcher hoists or ramps available for aircraft C604 or Global Express size. Aeromedical stretchers are about 2 feet wide, they are built for utility not comfort. The big problem the civilian industry faces is the repatriation of the obese in terms of strtcher load bearing capability, aircraft loading strategies and aircraft size, all have health safety and cost implications.

I know, and what wonderful contraptions they are,
take up much space in the cabin if installed as a cabin mod in aeroplane ( the door retains its airstair) , or you have to provide it to the aerodrome handling agency...God forbid they ever buy their own.

Company I used to work for operated 2 Learjets in med fit. One 45, one 35A

Ttfn

[thetimesreader84]

you have to provide it to the aerodrome handling agency...God forbid they ever buy their own

in Europe, in the Civ world, outside of major hubs and certain tourist destinations (Geneva, Grenoble, Malaga... Palma?) ambulance flights are so rare as to render it not worth providing support equipment or training to FBO staff.

In the US, FBOs are a bit better stocked in my experience, but even then there can be significant gaps in knowledge.

In my limited dealings with mil repatriations, they expect you to have your own kit and do your own thing anyway - perhaps this is how the mil works.

[air pig]

I know, and what wonderful contraptions they are,
take up much space in the cabin if installed as a cabin mod in aeroplane ( the door retains its airstair) , or you have to provide it to the aerodrome handling agency...God forbid they ever buy their own.

Company I used to work for operated 2 Learjets in med fit. One 45, one 35A

Ttfn

Was your company UK based and recently stopped operations?

[thetimesreader84]

Was your company UK based and recently stopped operations?

That particular company never had a 35a, they had 2/3 LR-45s.

I’m not sure what company Ivor Toolbox is referring to.

[air pig]

That particular company never had a 35a, they had 2/3 LR-45s.

I’m not sure what company Ivor Toolbox is referring to.

Indeed it did, there was a Bristol based company but as far as I know it never had jets. The only company that had two Lj35As was AirMed at Oxford who went under about four years ago.

[N707ZS]

Learjet 35s are now on the German register and based at Birmingham.

[air pig]

Learjet 35s are now on the German register and based at Birmingham.

They are indeed as I work on them as a flight nurse.