German MPA

[ORAC]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-defence-airplane/germany-looks-at-buying-new-maritime-patrol-aircraft-document-idUSKBN23N322

Germany looks at buying new maritime patrol aircraft: document

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany’s Defence Ministry has stopped refurbishing the military’s maritime patrol aircraft in favour of conducting a market study of possible replacements, a confidential ministry document reviewed by Reuters showed.

Prepared for the parliamentary defence committee, the document showed the ministry had decided to stop the upgrading of existing Bundeswehr (armed forces) patrol aircraft after an economic feasibility study.

But the Bundeswehr needed the ability to hunt submarines and conduct long-distance maritime reconnaissance, prompting the market review of alternative aircraft including the C-295 MPA from Airbus, the RAS 72 from Rheinland Air Service and the P-8A Poseidon from Boeing, the document indicated.

[etudiant]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-defence-airplane/germany-looks-at-buying-new-maritime-patrol-aircraft-document-idUSKBN23N322

Germany looks at buying new maritime patrol aircraft: document

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany’s Defence Ministry has stopped refurbishing the military’s maritime patrol aircraft in favour of conducting a market study of possible replacements, a confidential ministry document reviewed by Reuters showed.

Prepared for the parliamentary defence committee, the document showed the ministry had decided to stop the upgrading of existing Bundeswehr (armed forces) patrol aircraft after an economic feasibility study.

But the Bundeswehr needed the ability to hunt submarines and conduct long-distance maritime reconnaissance, prompting the market review of alternative aircraft including the C-295 MPA from Airbus, the RAS 72 from Rheinland Air Service and the P-8A Poseidon from Boeing, the document indicated.

Perhaps they should consider the Chinese offerings as well. It would surely be a lot cheaper financially.

[SLXOwft]

They appear to be looking at an interim solution. It will be interesting to see what impact it has on the proposed Franco-German MPA. No Kawasaki P-1 in the list. The P-3Cs are ex-Netherlands so will they be looking at second-hand or lease?

Germany’s longer-term MPA solution will most likely be found via the Maritime Airborne Warfare System development program, set to be undertaken jointly by France and Germany post-2025 with an eye on achieving a new maritime patrol capability by 2030. The two countries signed a letter of intent (LOI) to develop this capability at the ILA exhibition in Berlin in April 2018 and have already have agreed to award manufacturers a two-year common requirements study determining the technical and financial elements involved.

from Defense & Security Monitor story (https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2020/06/17/germany-halts-p-3-orion-mission-systems-upgrade-as-mpa-alternatives-examined/)


I was amused by this in the NavalNews story (https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/06/german-mod-ends-p-3c-orion-mpa-modernization-program-seeking-alternative/) by a student journalist contributor.
A capability gap resulting from the loss of the P-3C Orion, especially for long-range and rapid underwater warfare, cannot be accepted."

Apparently the government of a major island state dependent on maritime trade thought it was until recently. Might you the UK weren't the only ones to can the capability. I may be wrong but I don't think the Netherlands has a fixed wing ASW capability since it flogged off the P-3s. Mind you their entire maritime capability took a hacking in the 1990s and early 2000s and the planned new frigates have been subject to ongoing delays.

Etudiant - I didn't know Huawei made aircraft...

[exhorder]

@SLXOwft, there is no indication that the German government will consider second-hand aircraft this time. After buying the ex-Dutch Orions, they were discovered to be in far worse shape than expected. This resulted in persistent maintenance and reliability issues which are, apparently, the main reason for the early retirement that has been announced now. It didn't help that the new wings that had already been funded and produced burned down in a warehouse fire a year ago or so. The cloggies are probably still laughing up their sleeves, clever people that they are.

In the current climate, with Covid-19, Trump and all, I would be surprised if we bought anything other than the C-295 MPA, even though the Navy Chief of Staff and other brass have repeatedly expressed their preference for the P-8. It would mean a clear capability loss, especially considering the renewed emphasis on p2p warfare, but industrial considerations are usually more important when it comes to defense procurement. Additionally, the P-8 might not be all that great when it comes to hunting submarines in the Baltic, whereas a C-295 MPA is probably more than adequate for observing skinny pirates in skiffs. Then again, we do want to buy Super Hornets, and probably CH-47s as well, so maybe Boeing will have a nice, juicy package to offer.

[Asturias56]

Depends on where you plan on using them - if it's the N Sea and the Baltic against submarines you don't really need a big aeroplane. Out of area - if it's just watching for pirates , again something cheap will do.

If you want to contribute to ASW operations N & W of Scotland you'e going to have to dig deep

[exhorder]

@Asturias56: Exactly, it all depends on the nature of the requirements. I just wanted to point out that, just because the P-8 is probably an excellent choice for Australia, New Zealand, Norway and the UK, it does not automatically have to be a good one for Germany.

Another aspect to keep in mind: if (a big if) we picked the P-8, the French would probably go nuts. Allegedly, French opposition was the real reason for the German DoD deciding not to procure the F-35, and it is hard to imagine a prospering Franco-German MPA program after buying the most expensive and, arguably, most modern MPA on the market.

[SLXOwft]

@Exhorder: I know virtually nothing about the RAS 72 Sea Eagle other than it has been sold to Pakistan. Do you have any (publicly disclosable) idea about its relative capability v the Italian ATR 72 based P-72A which I understand is "fitted for but not with" ASW systems? Is it more along the lines of the Turkish ATR 72 TMPA ? I think we can assume the latter is out of the question given recent events.

Don't know the figures but the indigenous RAS 72 using converted ATR 72s (especially in the current aviation climate) would seem to be a contender; especially for an interim solution.

I would have though there must be other possible participants in a Euro MPA going forward Spain comes to mind.

[exhorder]

@Exhorder: I know virtually nothing about the RAS 72 Sea Eagle other than it has been sold to Pakistan. Do you have any (publicly disclosable) idea about its relative capability v the Italian ATR 72 based P-72A which I understand is "fitted for but not with" ASW systems? Is it more along the lines of the Turkish ATR 72 TMPA ? I think we can assume the latter is out of the question given recent events.

I do not know anything about the RAS 72 either, sorry ;) The recent reporting is the first time I heard about it, but then again, I am not an expert in Naval matters, far from it actually. The manufacturer's webpage (https://specialmission.ras.de/the-ras72/) mentions ASW capabilities with sonobuoys and an "acoustic processing system".

Don't know the figures but the indigenous RAS 72 using converted ATR 72s (especially in the current aviation climate) would seem to be a contender; especially for an interim solution.

I agree, especially if the program promises to keep a few industry workers in Germany employed and happy.

[MFC_Fly]

P8 could also be good news for Lossie... another P8 fleet that could make use of the Boeing European P8 Maintenance Facility there :ok:

[keesje]

For the Baltic, North West European, South European and Mediterranean areas, a CN295 or ATR sized aircraft would probably be the most efficient, short term solution.

In a NATO / EC MPA solution, dedicating 5-6 airbases for MPA, operating a mix of standard coastal and long ranged MPA's and helicopters / UAV's could be the most efficient solution . All the countries involved, can contribute funds, crews and maintenance capabilities.

Looking at the development of data storage, processing power and on-line information sharing over the last 20 years, aircraft the size of 737, P3 are probably no longer needed, even for long range.

If I had to configure a 2030-2060 atlantic MPA today, it probably wouldn't look like a P3C, Atlantique, A320 or P8 with 12+ pilots, TACO's, commmunication officers, plotters, observervers etc. .

The technology & operational environment changed too much since the cold war.Time on station, range and speed requirements are still there, so maybe the ATR/CN295 category falls short for the long range requirements.

Maybe Airbus can come up with something right sized, multi role, meeting 2030-2060 requirements.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x713/34915198813_2d3f234ea8_c_64574037eea24065cac5ac698612a442c09 6bc98.jpg

[Asturias56]

How many would they sell? there's a reason just about every MPA is based on a commercial design - - probably the Atlantic and the Japanese flying boats are the only ones that aren't

you just can't afford to develop a specialised airframe any more

[keesje]

How many would they sell? there's a reason just about every MPA is based on a commercial design - - probably the Atlantic and the Japanese flying boats are the only ones that aren't

you just can't afford to develop a specialised airframe any more

I guess an ATR, C295 fuselage would be big enough. But it doesn't have space for a weaponsbay and the wings are too small to support enough fuel, warloads, more powerfull engines for longer range MPA missions.

How large a market, maybe 100-200 in 25 years, if we include Asia.