Red White and Blue Voyager

[MPN11]

https://apple.news/AxthGrtutTK68n1fsnSN2lw

I don’t believe it!

[steamchicken]

Priorities!

[Herod]

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/B1gAAOSwHfhZ0BTJ/s-l300.jpg

Just a suggestion

[MPN11]

Amidst the biggest crisis in my lifetime (exempt the latter bits of WW2) painting a Boris One jet should be waaaaay down the list of “Wouldn’t it be nice...” However, UK taxpayers will undoubtely be happy to know Boris likes the colour scheme.

BTW, the OH would disagree, Herod 😎 The roundel positioning is neater, for a start. But I digress from my [rant]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x681/ed438bb1_265b_4fc2_9104_9dcb988f7b8a_e5e45e77f619555169a5d44 d751355645ee29de2.jpeg

[Video Mixdown]

UK taxpayers will undoubtely be happy to know Boris likes the colour scheme.
What's the problem - do you think red or blue paint is more expensive than grey? It's got to have paint on it, and military aircraft often get custom paint schemes. Do you complain about those too?

[Chris Kebab]

What's the problem - do you think red or blue paint is more expensive than grey? It's got to have paint on it, and military aircraft often get custom paint schemes. Do you complain about those too?
Oh come on; it's just an ego trip.

[MPN11]

Agreed, CK.

As for other ‘bling’ paint schemes, ditto. I thought the RAF had more important things to address.

[bspatz]

Any thoughts on the likely colour scheme?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/plane-used-by-pm-to-receive-red-white-and-blue-makeover/ar-BB15zn9g?ocid=msedgntp

[MPN11]

I’ve asked the Mods to move the earlier discussion on the Voyager thread to be moved here.

[Out Of Trim]

Any thoughts on the likely colour scheme?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/plane-used-by-pm-to-receive-red-white-and-blue-makeover/ar-BB15zn9g?ocid=msedgntp

Thoughts!

No need to paint it. It's fine as it is. It may be required for its intended purpose as a Tanker in grey at some point! So it would be a waste of money to have to paint it for no reason. Pretentious c:mad:ts

[Fareastdriver]

Can anybody point out another prime minister/president/ head of state that travels internationally in an aircraft painted in tactical wartme colours.

[unclenelli]

So what happens when THAT Voyager goes U/S and the only alternative is an RAF Grey....????

[N707ZS]

Even Tony Blair resisted having Blair force one.

[N707ZS]

Paint it Gulf War pink, that would make it stand out, with some sort of nose artwork. Fat lass in a bikini.

[air pig]

So what happens when THAT Voyager goes U/S and the only alternative is an RAF Grey....????

Gordon Brown resisted Balir having Blair force one, probably because he wanted one too.

[NorthernChappie]

A great idea and why not. A couple of 1m watt speakers in the belly blasting Land of Hope and Glory from 35,000 and the job's a good un.

[Jhieminga]

Easy, needs to be painted like this:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x650/xr806_brize_070991_19f9bc04913bf3587ac4a0996f5f003fdc06131c. jpg
It won't look as good on a Voyager as it did on a '10, but it did the job for quite some time.

[Cat Techie]

Boris Farce One. Great.

[Cat Techie]

Easy, needs to be painted like this:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x650/xr806_brize_070991_19f9bc04913bf3587ac4a0996f5f003fdc06131c. jpg
It won't look as good on a Voyager as it did on a '10, but it did the job for quite some time.
I would gladly agree with that scheme.

[MPN11]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x681/ed438bb1_265b_4fc2_9104_9dcb988f7b8a_e5e45e77f619555169a5d44 d751355645ee29de2.jpeg

Far more elegant

[NutLoose]

I do like a challenge and I always thought the BMI scheme was superb, so I rustled this up .

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50013770381_b8913824de_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcxDtT)

[mattaddiction]

Ah, all starts to become clear! One would presume piloted by Cpt Cummin's ( So they can go where the hell they want, when the hell they want..... )

On a serious note, does anyone have any idea when it will depart Marshall's?

m

[NutLoose]

And while there at it they could tweak the Rivet Joint scheme to make it more in keeping with the RAF lightning flash and away from the God awful US front end. Tweaked this so you can see what I mean..

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50014100382_a0f1411684_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jczkzy)

[srobarts]

I do like a challenge and I always thought the BMI scheme was superb, so I rustled this up .

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50013770381_b8913824de_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jcxDtT)
I doubt it will be that subtle. I suspect it will be more like. this hawk.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/6a922019b0b17c4f897a85dcc0690984_9bcf71df31931ea904f06ebfe41 0e0649f0012f3.jpg

[Corporal Clott]

Oh come on, there is only one paint scheme that will crack it...

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x533/image_0a4e33468eacf51f9bdd32cce320874800d0ab6c.jpeg

It just needs the initials “BJ” on the tail...:cool:

[Corporal Clott]

Here you go...:E:E:E

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x533/4c40d03c_ca12_4b39_827d_a20f2bbe72be_04c69b9f43acc3bb6b15915 b58d86807466dcad4.jpeg

“Yeah Baby! When this jet’s a rocking, don’t come a knocking!”...

[medod]

I cannot remember where or when I read it, but I’m sure someone on here recounted an observation something like this:

”When I was at [a] G20 meeting, all the national VIP jets were parked up at the airport. Amongst all the bling from all around the world, Mrs May’s Voyager, in its grey suit, looked exceedingly purposeful and businesslike. It made quite a statement.”

Hopefully someone remembers the actual post, or even wrote it! It struck a chord with me; I do think the grey jets look good.

[Harley Quinn]

I cannot remember where or when I read it, but I’m sure someone on here recounted an observation something like this:

”When I was at [a] G20 meeting, all the national VIP jets were parked up at the airport. Amongst all the bling from all around the world, Mrs May’s Voyager, in its grey suit, looked exceedingly purposeful and businesslike. It made quite a statement.”

Hopefully someone remembers the actual post, or even wrote it! It struck a chord with me; I do think the grey jets look good.

Now if someone could have it bristling with Frazer Nash or Boulton Paul multi gun turrets....
That might send a message

[BEagle]

It will have to be rather distinctive, to avoid confusion with this:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x690/aeroflot_airbus_a330_243_vp_blx_e_svetlanov_at_sheremetyevo_ international_airport_2dfa1fcd920f82c46566f68ae60f0bbd17047a b7.jpg
Rather an elegant modern scheme (apart from the winglets) rather than some Comet / VC10 throwback to the 1960s.

[dead_pan]

A snazzy livery is all well and good for the occasional VIP jaunt, but what about when it's in its swing role tanking or chugging it's way down to the Falklands?

Also, odds on it looking like a mangled BA livery?

[Cat Techie]

Now if someone could have it bristling with Frazer Nash or Boulton Paul multi gun turrets....
That might send a message
Very Ress Mogg. Who I bet has never handled an individual weapon in his life in service. Oh, never done any service for the country at all (that has not had his own interests first).

[Cat Techie]

It will have to be rather distinctive, to avoid confusion with this:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x690/aeroflot_airbus_a330_243_vp_blx_e_svetlanov_at_sheremetyevo_ international_airport_2dfa1fcd920f82c46566f68ae60f0bbd17047a b7.jpg
Rather an elegant modern scheme (apart from the winglets) rather than some Comet / VC10 throwback to the 1960s.
Almost looks like Eastern colours..

[dead_pan]

Almost looks like Eastern colours..

The land of the setting sun. Quite appropriate really

[Jet II]

A snazzy livery is all well and good for the occasional VIP jaunt, but what about when it's in its swing role tanking or chugging it's way down to the Falklands?



If it's chugging it's way down to the Falklands does it really matter what colour it is?

[NutLoose]

Maybe they are resurrecting the raspberry ripple scheme.

[NutLoose]

My money is on


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/962x618/image_519413857a984f6fc12ba401b54f90bb133ceac6.jpeg

[ICM]

Whatever the colour scheme turns out to be, it's an additional bit of mission-creep with the VIP airframe, given that there was no VIP provision when the Voyager contract was completed. There's a certain inevitability about it all, but I imagine that getting the contact signed at all was something of a triumph at the time.

[Cat Techie]

Whatever the colour scheme turns out to be, it's an additional bit of mission-creep with the VIP airframe, given that there was no VIP provision when the Voyager contract was completed. There's a certain inevitability about it all, but I imagine that getting the contact signed at all was something of a triumph at the time.
Boris Farce One..

[MAINJAFAD]

Agreed, CK.

As for other ‘bling’ paint schemes, ditto. I thought the RAF had more important things to address.

Cat Techie has designed one of those "bling" schemes and he will tell you that the Unit normally has to pay for it from non-public funds as a general rule.

[NutLoose]

Ii would imagine the grey reqs little in the way of upkeep to keep looking smart, however a shiny scheme does.
I too have design some schemes in the past that are flying ;)

[Lost on the Tundra]

Every time I see a VC10 I get a little dewy eyed... regardless of livery or slf. Just a gorgeous airframe. After WWII, the UK produced some of the finest looking aeroplanes ever to fly.

Edit: I'm sorry, but the voyager (of the damned) is just another etops, barely discernable from all the other etops, even in a hot pink tu-tu.
Dull -- dee, you, el, elle dull!

[artee]

Boris Farce One..
Given that Boris was a member of the Bullingdon Club, with their strange pig rituals, shouldn't it be called Piggles?

[LGW Vulture]

When the CSAT fleet get replaced by G650s, that's the time to start throwing your toys out of the pram.

....coming to you shortly

[DCThumb]

Blair Force one was cancelled because Blair was cancelled. The project was cancelled because his successor didn’t like the sound of ‘Brown force One’...

[junior.VH-LFA]

Can anybody point out another prime minister/president/ head of state that travels internationally in an aircraft painted in tactical wartme colours.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/1920px_raaf_28a39_007_29_airbus_kc_30a_28a330_203mrtt_29_lan ding_at_canberra_airport_284_29_cbd6e2d44c9c191a6a3ba655340d 342b7c7465bc.jpg


You mean like the RAAF? The exact same aeroplane (I suppose, had the common sense to keep the boom also :E)

[layman]

junior.VH-LFA

Saw it (the RAAF one) practicing(?) a missed approach into Canberra today

Noise was the give-away … awfully quiet around Fairbairn at the moment

Saw a BBJ the last week. Any idea how far afield they venture? I seem to recall the BBJ has been used on flights as far as Jakarta (and Hawaii?)

[NWSRG]

I think this is a great idea...the UK seems to be almost embarassed to show a little bit of national pride, and maybe Boris is going to try to put that right. Although I didn't realise that there is one of the Voyagers assigned to VIP duties specifically.

A variation on Nutloose's scheme and / or the old VC10 scheme would look really well. Need a little bit of red (just a little) in there somewhere too.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Can anybody point out another prime minister/president/ head of state that travels internationally in an aircraft painted in tactical wartme colours.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/602x442/main_qimg_8626485986cc777514d209a013b6acc5_aaa83767020ddbaf6 6a403d45bad724178c67956.jpeg
This too....The larger transport is also moving to the Air Force this year

[chevvron]

Ahem: it's not just used by government but by Royals too.

[Diesel_10]

My man on the inside reckons its the AirTanker leased Voyager to Thomas Cook - now defunct. So it wouldn't have been in grey if it were needed. Calm down remoaners.

[Martin the Martian]

Always thought the RCAF Airbus A310s were nicely understated:

https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/6/43711_1519234653.jpg

Definitely subscribes to the 'less is more' philosophy, which is not something that you can apply to the idiot in Number 10. According to the Times, an 'RAF source' is quoted as saying of the new paint job, “It is a patriotic, smart and global Britain-esque design."

Oh, God.

[Martin the Martian]

My man on the inside reckons its the AirTanker leased Voyager to Thomas Cook - now defunct. So it wouldn't have been in grey if it were needed. Calm down remoaners.

But that wouldn't be the one fitted with a VIP interior and available for use whenever required by the PM etc, would it? And cut out the remoaner jibes. It's says far more about you.

[NutLoose]

Yes, the Canadian VIP up until the repaint were also in grey


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/564x423/pm_plane_1_3b44195d0e4cb45a32128b5d71f414519c468e91.png


A variation on Nutloose's scheme and / or the old VC10 scheme would look really well. Need a little bit of red (just a little) in there somewhere too.

Red would be easy to add, the BMI scheme had it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/8109/29679133715_ef42310346_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MdDjrZ)BMI British Midland International Airbus A330-243 G-WWBM Aircraft Profile Art Print (https://flic.kr/p/MdDjrZ) by Nick Knapp (https://www.flickr.com/photos/airlinerart/), on Flickr

[Chris Kebab]

My man on the inside reckons its the AirTanker leased Voyager to Thomas Cook - now defunct. So it wouldn't have been in grey if it were needed. Calm down remoaners.
The a/c is the normal VIP fit ZZ336, never anything to do with Thomas Cook. Think your "man on the inside" may not be as "inside" as you think and may need to calm down himself and get a few facts right.

[Dan Gerous]

Just slap a couple of vinyl stickers on it.

[Bismark]

I don't really see why you guys are objecting to a bit of UK advertising itself around the world. Aircraft get repainted so no real extra cost there. If it is used on the AirBridge, so what. If it is used for tanking over the N Sea why does it have to be grey - it is not as though it will be operating at sea level! Why are they painted grey in the first place?

[NutLoose]

Why are they painted grey in the first place?


It's called camoflague, it generally helps to visually hide from the bad guys you know.

[MPN11]

... If it is used for tanking over the N Sea why does it have to be grey - it is not as though it will be operating at sea level! Why are they painted grey in the first place?
As a 'military asset', low-visibility in the air and on the ground enhances survivability. Yes, i know there's stuff called radar and all that, but there's no sense in making the asset stand out like canis testiculos

[c52]

I think it's time to resurrect a VC-10 or a Comet.

[Archimedes]

Given that Boris was a member of the Bullingdon Club, with their strange pig rituals, shouldn't it be called Piggles?

It was the Piers Gaveston which was alleged to indulge in interesting displays of swinophilia. Not sure if Boris was a member of that one.

[Bob Viking]

I’m going to go against the grain on this one. Sorry.

For large aircraft I’m not sure it makes the slightest difference what colour it is unless it plans to operate in the LL environment and even then I would take some convincing it matters that much.

In these days of high fidelity radars, live satellite uplinks, targeting pods, HMCSs etc the colour of the paint isn’t going to matter at all when anyone who wishes to do you harm can either see you anyway (think large aircraft on approach and a guy with a MANPADs) or will have a targeting system that doesn’t care what colour your aircraft is.

In fact, couldn’t we actually make a better argument nowadays for high visibility paint schemes for all of our aircraft to aid with visual acquisition for safety purposes?

If an aircraft is on the ground does the colour of the paint really make it less easy to see? I mean really? Whatever colour you paint it there is no secret about the fact it is going to be parked on an airfield.

Have I just set the cat amongst the pigeons?!

BV

[MPN11]

No problem, BV ... I'm sure you're broadly correct. And I assume the black Hawks, Tucanos etc. are so painted for high-visibility reasons.

I just have an aversion to 'party' colours on military hardware! Do the Army or RN behave in that manner?

[Bob Viking]

I’m not saying I am correct but I wonder if there is an element of painting aircraft with camouflage paint schemes because we’ve always done it that way.

Our enemies know who we are and where to find us anyway so are we just making life difficult for ourselves?!

BV

[Video Mixdown]

Have I just set the cat amongst the pigeons?!

I think you make perfect sense. Everything from airliners to delivery vans carry the operators’ colours and logos so I see it as entirely proper that an aircraft representing the UK overseas does the same. The ‘camouflage’ argument is ridiculous. If an enemy is allowed to get close enough to a strategic tanker/transport to see what colour the paint is you’ve got bigger problems. This frothing about changing the colour of an aircraft comes over as a bit loony.

[Beatts]

Didn't take long.. 🤣🤣

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1065x823/foi_a888791484c806b6a1d43b59e85595b08636f793.png

[downsizer]

^^^^It cracks me up that tools who submit these pointless FOIs forget that answer said FOIs takes up time and money as well. :rolleyes:

[downsizer]

Also, I don't see the same toolbags getting wound up over special Sqn tails, or 50 years of Herc tails, or WW2 commemorative paint schemes.

This forum has gone to ****, like much of the rest of the internet......let's all race to the bottom.

[Cat Techie]

No problem with a decent paint scheme. However it is a Royal Air Force operated aircraft and as such should fit into the corporate theme of the organisation. Most on this thread are ultra conservative. I am like that in regards to the way RAF aircraft look for business. Wish our display aircraft had more of the creativity of other airforces, but that is a different question and matter. As long as the A330 is not a Boris 350 million to the NHS bus.

[VariablePitchP]

My man on the inside reckons its the AirTanker leased Voyager to Thomas Cook - now defunct. So it wouldn't have been in grey if it were needed. Calm down remoaners.

Thanks for clarifying boomer, really contributed there.

[Cat Techie]

^^^^It cracks me up that tools who submit these pointless FOIs forget that answer said FOIs takes up time and money as well. :rolleyes:
Democrary old boy. People like you shouted loudly about it in 2016. It doesn't end because it is something you disagree with. As for the internet, the other forum you are involved in, is a race to the bottom and that is why hardly anybody looks at it. It is like the Air Mech engineers forum that gone so low, no admins at all do anything to it. I run a FB group that is strong because it is actively administered and not allowed to be taken over from what it is there for, so I disagree on "the everything on the internet". As for my comments about Boris, I am taking the mick.

[NutLoose]

In fact, couldn’t we actually make a better argument nowadays for high visibility paint schemes for all of our aircraft to aid with visual acquisition for safety purposes?

Yes paint them all in different airline schemes and hide them amongst the Civi clutter.. After all, they would, one assumes disperse and it was proven in Berlin, there is no point painting ones armour green/black when it operates in an urban environment.

[downsizer]

Democrary old boy. People like you shouted loudly about it in 2016. It doesn't end because it is something you disagree with. As for the internet, the other forum you are involved in, is a race to the bottom and that is why hardly anybody looks at it. It is like the Air Mech engineers forum that gone so low, no admins at all do anything to it. I run a FB group that is strong because it is actively administered and not allowed to be taken over from what it is there for, so I disagree on "the everything on the internet". As for my comments about Boris, I am taking the mick.

I moaned about what in 2016? You lost me there IILKC.

I'm involved in a number of forums so not sure which one you mean anyway; Ok, maybe not everything on the internet has gone to ****, but a very large chunk of it has. You have to look hard to find anything moderate and unpolarised these days.

[PAXboy]

I can see Bozzer, now, as he stands at the top of the steps, waving to his admirers in some sort of military style suit and a big hat with plenty of medal ribbons on it. Sadly, Boris and his Svengali will never understand that, when they rock up to a G7 wrapped in the Union flag, everyone is only going to be thinking of the rate per million of deaths from Covid-19.

As flashy aircraft are the preserve of banana republics, we now qualify.

[Cat Techie]

I moaned about what in 2016? You lost me there IILKC.

I'm involved in a number of forums so not sure which one you mean anyway; Ok, maybe not everything on the internet has gone to ****, but a very large chunk of it has. You have to look hard to find anything moderate and unpolarised these days.
True. The truth does get drowned out with the bull and the nastiness of both sides of the spectrum. I have other things to really bother me more that the internet like a lot of the working people on here that do not work to or on a military contract.

[Blacksheep]

So the spare Voyager aircraft that Air Tanker leased to Thomas Cook is now looking for a new customer. The government decides to take it on and, since it isn't required for front-line military service, they wish to replace the Thomas Cook livery with a more patriotic one for use by Royalty and government ministers - like 32 (Royal) Sqn) for instance. Hence the anti-Boris section of the population want to use it for a bit of Boris Bashing and that's only to be expected, surely? The mainstream media are certainly unlikely to broadcast anything that would calm the fuss by reporting the facts.

[Top West 50]

Whatever the colour scheme turns out to be, it's an additional bit of mission-creep with the VIP airframe, given that there was no VIP provision when the Voyager contract was completed. There's a certain inevitability about it all, but I imagine that getting the contact signed at all was something of a triumph at the time.
Quite so, a triumph for AirTanker. Mission creep = £

[Martin the Martian]

So the spare Voyager aircraft that Air Tanker leased to Thomas Cook is now looking for a new customer. The government decides to take it on and, since it isn't required for front-line military service, they wish to replace the Thomas Cook livery with a more patriotic one for use by Royalty and government ministers - like 32 (Royal) Sqn) for instance. Hence the anti-Boris section of the population want to use it for a bit of Boris Bashing and that's only to be expected, surely? The mainstream media are certainly unlikely to broadcast anything that would calm the fuss by reporting the facts.

But it won't be the spare. It is the one with the VIP fit, and which is a permanent part of the RAF fleet as it is often required for that role.

[vascodegama]

I suspect that the repainting of the TC ac and the change to the VIP frame colour scheme are unrelated. The VIP ac (336) is the only one with the posh fit ,so, unless the MOD has decided to go to another expenditure of many millions, then I suspect that what is going on at Cambridge is simply the demodification from TC livery/fit -incidentaly paid for by Air Tanker.

[Martin the Martian]

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/11608974363_927dacbbee_b.jpg

Now you're talking.

[Bismark]

As a 'military asset', low-visibility in the air and on the ground enhances survivability. Yes, i know there's stuff called radar and all that, but there's no sense in making the asset stand out like canis testiculos
And painting it grey does that at 35,000ft? What about contrails etc?

[Bob Viking]

The more I consider it the more I think that, if you’re relying on your paint scheme to hide in the 21st century battle space, you may be in trouble. Helicopters may be an exception.

With this in mind I’m all for holding open colouring competitions for school kids to design schemes for each of our aircraft types.

OK, that last sentence may be stretching things just a little.

BV

[MPN11]

And painting it grey does that at 35,000ft? What about contrails etc?
I confess that my original concern was simply expenditure on what I perceived as fripperies, especially in these difficult times.

I do, however, have a ‘thing’ about camouflage in the visual spectrum, however trivial it may seem to some, and had a ‘Desk’ interest in the field at MoD in the 90s.

BTW, do contrails occur at normal tanking heights? Genuine question.

[Beatts]

https://twitter.com/larisamlbrown/status/1273244637562646529?s=20

[beardy]

https://twitter.com/larisamlbrown/status/1273244637562646529?s=20
Who is Larisa Brown and why should we take her word?

[MPN11]

I despair. Oh, well, it will please the Media and Spotters. I’m just glad the Defence budget had £900,000 hiding down the back of the sofa. 😉

[MPN11]

Who is Larisa Brown and why should we take her word?
Defence and Security Editor for ... shiver ... the DM.

Doesn’t necessarily mean she isn’t telling the truth

[CAEBr]

From Blacksheep: So the spare Voyager aircraft that Air Tanker leased to Thomas Cook is now looking for a new customer. The government decides to take it on and, since it isn't required for front-line military service, they wish to replace the Thomas Cook livery with a more patriotic one for use by Royalty and government ministers - like 32 (Royal) Sqn) for instance.

There is just one Voyager at Cambridge - ZZ336 - which is a full capability Tanker that also has a VIP internal fit. The repaint will only alter people's perception when Boris rocks up somewhere in it - allegedly. It will have no effect on it's ability to perform AAR

The aircraft now released from it's Thomas Cook lease is part of Airtanker's surge fleet, which are leased out to make money (for Airtanker) when the RAF don't need them. Finding another airline willing to take it on is not an MoD task

[NutLoose]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53082294

£900K

[ShotOne]

Bloody good idea. Of course the usual suspects latched onto a handy excuse for Boris-bashing. But this aircraft is an important tool to sell the UK brand around the world. It doesn’t have to be grey and with hardly any exceptions, other nations VIP transports don’t routinely wear camouflage schemes.

[NutLoose]

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/11608974363_927dacbbee_b.jpg

Now you're talking.

My dear chap, one does hope you realise that fin flash is French.... Sacre bleu!!!

Mind you the first VC10 that was painted away from home came back with similar...

[flighthappens]

I confess that my original concern was simply expenditure on what I perceived as fripperies, especially in these difficult times.

I do, however, have a ‘thing’ about camouflage in the visual spectrum, however trivial it may seem to some, and had a ‘Desk’ interest in the field at MoD in the 90s.

BTW, do contrails occur at normal tanking heights? Genuine question.

Re contrails- yes, depends on atmospherics.

The Voyager with the red RAF100 tail has flown on Ops. Apparently without being shot down. Is that tail a frippery or a worthwhile expense? At what range do you think it is possible to gain sight of the aircraft, versus being able to break out the tail paint?

If the aircraft needed a repaint anyway (not sure if this is actually the case) then is it “frippery”? The cost would have been incurred whether it’s grey or red or....

[deltahotel]

A very quick search engine search indicates a 747 full paint job in the region of $200k, so £900k seems a bit of a piss take.

[Lost on the Tundra]

Here's an idea, not new in some respects. Just about every nation state has a national airline, most are functionally insolvent but I digress... Why not have said national carriers occasionally, as needs be, lease a couple of their best aircraft, decked out in feather boas and/or whatever outrageous livery desired, to VIPS? Could be a marketing scheme for aforementioned state vanity project, whilst that airliner is not carrying about our moral and intellectually superior elected/appointed leaders. Imagine: "Fly the very airplane Justin the magnificent coiffed his bouffant in! Free Chrystia Freeland™ bobblehead figurine included! (for a small monthly fee charged to your credit card, no rights included...)"

Save a ton of dough and give flight crews a well paid reason to get out of bed that day.

[Herod]

Martin the Martian: I like your colour scheme, but please can we have "Royal Air Force TRANSPORT Command"

Yes, I know, Transport Command hasn't existed these last forty-plus years, but humour an old man.

[dead_pan]

How much of the Voyager is British made as opposed to, err, European made? Its all well and good getting the Reds to do our bidding around the globe in the Hawk, but what happens if someone asks? Could be interesting if Airbus consider their position in the UK post-Covid and sans a trade deal...

I reckon they should re-paint the BBMF Lanc, show the world who's boss and all that.

[Airbubba]

From the Guardian.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1716x1030/1716_f77a7c5dc5e9b4e00e50302b2b03a5d62d901fa6.jpg


Air Force One for Boris? RAF plane for VIPs gets a union jack makeover

The prime minister’s plane, also used by royalty, is getting a new paint job costing £100,000 plus

Dan Sabbagh Defence and security editor
Tue 16 Jun 2020 13.25 EDT

The RAF VIP plane used by Boris Johnson and senior members of the government to travel around the world is to have its grey livery repainted red white and blue in a makeover estimated to cost more than six figures.

The union flag-inspired paint job for the Voyager aircraft comes two years after the prime minister complained about the dullness of its former colour.
When foreign secretary, Johnson said: “What I will say about the Voyager, I think it’s great, but it seems to be very difficult to get hold of,” before adding: “And also, why does it have to be grey?”

Downing Street confirmed that a Johnson-inspired makeover was under way, while defence sources added that the plane is being repainted at a specialist secure hangar run by Marshall Aerospace near Cambridge.

David Cameron commissioned a £10m refit of the rented aircraft – dubbed “Cam Force One” – when he was prime minister but to reduce costs and deflect public criticism the plane was intended to have a dual civilian and military use.

But repainting it in the colours of the national flag suggests that it will be increasingly used for globe trotting by Johnson during the rest of his time as prime minister.

Andy Netherwood, a former RAF pilot and defence commentator, said: “The issue is project creep. If it really is an all-over shiny paint scheme then it’s starting to look – operationally and politically – much more like Air Force One for Boris.”

Currently the Voyager also provides air-to-air refuelling for other RAF planes when it is not being used by the prime minister, other senior ministers or members of the royal family, particularly for trips outside Europe.

It is based on an Airbus A330 with a first class cabin for the prime minister or leading VIP on the flight, with club class seating for business delegates and conventional economy class seating at the rear, used typically by press.

Tony Blair had planned to buy a plane towards the end of his time as prime minister, but the plans were scrapped by Gordon Brown in 2008 to save money. Ministers took scheduled flights or chartered planes if they wanted to take along a large delegation.

The scheme was revived by Cameron, although by the time he was first able to use the plane in July 2016, the prime minister was on his way out of a job as a couple of weeks before he had been defeated in the Brexit referendum and resigned.

A spokesman for the Royal Air Force said: “An RAF Voyager is currently in Cambridgeshire for pre-planned works.”

• This article was amended on 17 June 2020 to change a reference from “Union Jack” to union flag, and clarify that the £10m spent on the aircraft under David Cameron’s administration was for a refit, not the cost of the plane itself.


https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/16/air-force-one-for-boris-raf-plane-for-vips-gets-a-union-jack-makeover

[AndoniP]

The French one is rather nice...

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x533/800px_airbus_a330_223_2c_france_air_force_an2006985_f7454721 6216c20ccd07449041b3825c7c4e789c.jpg

[BEagle]

From 13 years ago when the question was last asked:

Why grey, you may well ask....

It's an example of 'jointery' making optimal use of the UK's defence resources.

When John Major was PM, his office decided that rationalisation was needed and turned to him for leadership...

"Grey. I like grey. Grey is good. Pass me the peas please, Norma. Grey. Oh yes, absolutely. Have we got any grey?"

Now many year ago, long before WEBF was making noises about Sea Harriers (or even any noises at all as he hadn't been conceived then - in fact, neither had his father), it was RN tradition to paint everything and anything a fetching tone of battleship grey. So the Great Lord Pusser ordered lots of paint. Millions and millions of tins of the stuff. But then along came defence cuts and there was soon more paint than ships.

But Pusser was a wily cove. "Mr Major - I have a solution. You can paint the RAF's aeroplanes with some of my nice grey paint. I've got plenty to spare. You won't need to paint them in two-shades-of-sh*t, shiny white, hemp, brown or anything else. Just grey, lovely grey!"

"Thank you - I shall see that it is done"

And lo, it was.

Except for the trainers. They used the black paint which Pusser had left over from the bit below the waterline of his old battleships. But there wasn't quite enough left in Pusser's paint locker, so the Dominie was painted to look like a skunk, with some of Pusser's finest white flagpole-paint on the top of the fuselage.

But Pusser's paint was too heavy for the wretched little plastic planes which the RAF turned to for elementary flying training when they could no longer afford to buy their own, so they are au naturel in Bundesweiss fibreglass...


Even the Army Air Corps were given the wretched grey, some years after their original supply of green and black became unavailable...


One fine day when Woopert and Wodney of the Umpty-Umpth Queen's Own Chinless Pwancers were discussing horses' fetlocks, the price of bwown bwogues and pink corduroys over afternoon tea, they were alarmed to receive a call from their Corporal-of-Horse.

"Sirs - there's something very strange just arrived at the Q-stores"

W&W decided to investigate. Asking a passing competent NCO to show them the way, they discovered a puzzled quartermaster looking at a large metal object..

"Eh seh, wot is that, Quartermaster?" asked Woopert.

"Errm, it says 'tank' on the label, sir"

"Good gwief! It's not for us, is it? Does it eat hay?" squeaked Wodney.

"Err, it is sir. It seems that we're to be a mechanised cavalry regiment - and this will replace our chargers"

"Menc..Mechan....Mechanised cavalwy? Surely not - it's just isn't done" shrilled Woopert.

But it was true. So some weeks later, vast quantities cans arrived at the Q-stores, marked 'Paint, green, little tanks for the painting of'. Much to the horrified astonishment of the Comptroller General of the Queens Paint. "How simply fwightful. It's sooo not us. I have all these tins of black enamel for making Dobbin's hooves look all spiffing on pawade - I don't want all this wuddy gween!"

But the Corporal-of-Horse, being an NCO with a sound eye for a quick bob or two had an idea. "Errm, excuse me, Sirs, but I fink I can shift a few of them cans. I know a mate in the Army Air Corps...."

"Army Air Corps - wot's that?" enquired Wodney.

"Errm, well, Sir -you know, the chaps who fly around Salisbury Plain in helicopters"

"Oh those fwightful bounders? Rotters who scared m'pony during m'last chukka at Tidders last week. Righty-ho, Corporal-of-Horse, they can have as much as they wuddy well want" said Wodney.

"Errm, my mate'll need a bung to take 'em of me hands, Sir. Perhaps the regimental fund...."

"Certainly, Corporal-of-Horse. The wedgiment's officers will sort that out for you. A couple of thousand or so to help with your efforts?"

"Thank you very much, Sirs, I shall get on to it immediately"

"Well see you do. Now cut along like a good chap. Spot of tiffin, Woopert?"

And not long afterwards, the Army Air Corps' helicopters started to receive nice new green and black paintwork.....until the good Corporal of Horse was nicked by the Redcaps - and Pusser found himself with a new customer.

[V12]

https://news.sky.com/story/plan-to-rebrand-pm-plane-will-cost-900-000-12008735

£0.9m for a Union Flag respray. Is that for just one airframe? I was under the impression that the core fleet comprised 6 airframes that could be used in passenger/Govt VIP role and, given the short lead time on missions, it'd be challenging to plan the fleet so that one specific airframe could be used for short notice PM need. It is reported that he complains that they are rarely available for him as it is. So if he needs one, and demands the new livery, does anyone know whether they are respraying just the one, or eventually all? Can imagine it going tech and not being on the spare....
So pleased to see this as the priority in these slow times when there's so little else for Govt to worry about. I can imagine Cabinet meetings pondering over a choice of livery designs on models arranged down the centre of the table. Hancock would want NHS logo on it, and Truss would effuse at the patriotic nature of arriving at Andrews AFB to sit down for trade talks with The Donald with it as a backdrop. So good to know we are 'back in control' and a strong world power once again.

[Cornish Jack]

Can't see what all the fuss is about. Just another little-englander flag-waving exercise to make the buffoon feel important. The cost, apparently, is only £900,000 and a recent u-turn from Jenrick saved more than 40 times that amount in potential tax receipts. So give the little fat one a break - he hasn't got much else going for him at the moment.

[beamender99]

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/scottish-daily-mail/20200617/282050509313209

[TURIN]

How much of the Voyager is British made as opposed to, err, European made? Its all well and good getting the Reds to do our bidding around the globe in the Hawk, but what happens if someone asks? Could be interesting if Airbus consider their position in the UK post-Covid and sans a trade deal...

I reckon they should re-paint the BBMF Lanc, show the world who's boss and all that.

About half. Wings made in North Wales/Chester, RR Engines made in Derby. Probably a few other bits and pieces too.

[bobward]

Hmm, 101 posts on this rather mundane subject. Must be a very quite no-news day.

I'd caution against putting BJ on the fin though. When in the day job a few years ago I was tasked in looking for a support ship with certain special features. The only ones I knew of were from a US company called BJ Services (absolutely true!) However, when I Googled on just the initials (1) I found out that, contrary to old Abe's assertion, all men are not created equal, and (2) our head of cyber security was a really decent chap at my interview without coffee.

Finally, if you want to save the alleged £900k for the paint job, why not ask all those nice protester people in London or wherever. They sem to be dab hands with spray cans.


Apologies: I am joking and rather bored after all this time in my little cell/world.

[esa-aardvark]

Why not get all the British airlines bid for the
privilege of transporting our VIPS (&Royals), or
let them take train, taxi if more appropriate.
When I lived in Holland the was a government
aircraft which was rented out to private companies
when not needed.

[TEEEJ]

Voyager looks good photo shopped in Air Support Command livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/evansaviography/11608974363/

[Lomon]

What's the problem - do you think red or blue paint is more expensive than grey? It's got to have paint on it, and military aircraft often get custom paint schemes. Do you complain about those too?

The government long ago decided we shouldn't have a VIP flight. Voyager was bought to be part for the AT/Refuelling task. Then one of these very precious commodities was slightly repurposed into the VIP role by removing half the seats and refitting the AC with custom made executive seating.... But that was OK said the powers that be, because the AC would still be useable as a tanker (and indeed it has been on Ops) but now it is going to be repainted red, white and blue. What use will that be on Ops? Instead, it is now an easy to spot flying target, and has deprived the tanker fleet of an AC at a time when there is more pressure on our assets.

[Diesel_10]

Bandwagon Alert
The Thomas Cook aircraft would need to be resprayed in any case if a conflict occurred.
Thomas Cook A330 is now defunct.
The Voyager is a crap aircraft compared to the KC10 - no Upper Deck Cargo Door so you can use it for errrrr....Cargo in times of need - like now instead of Stoddy having to do it!
Air Tanker are a private operation contracted by the MoD. They can have their aircraft sprayed Sky Blue with Pink Spots for all I care.
Certain tinge of remoaner on this web-site....


.

[Deltasierra010]

Does it really cost nearly £ 1m to repaint the top half of an A300 Ir is there more being done.

[MPN11]

and has deprived the tanker fleet of an AC at a time when there is more pressure on our assets.And has deprived the Defence budget of c. £1m to satisfy the PM's vanity [or dislike of grey, to be pedantic].

MPN11, pi§§ed-off Tory.

[edi_local]

Not sure it's anything to do with remoaners really. Is spending nearly a million quid on some paint to tart up a bunch of military planes the best thing Johnson can come up with to distract the masses from his catastrophic premiership? This seems to appeal solely to those who would go out and "defend" statues of less desirable historical figures.

Remember the outrage from the populace over Blair Force One etc?

[Diesel_10]

Yup - thought so. And which branch of Aviation are you in?

[The AvgasDinosaur]

The aircraft has been on checks at Cambridge.
it was probably due a repaint on completion anyway. I doubt painting it other than grey overall will cost an additional £0.9 million. I suspect someone with an agenda is agitating the fertiliser !!!
David

[Ascoteer]

Bandwagon Alert
The Thomas Cook aircraft would need to be resprayed in any case if a conflict occurred.
Thomas Cook A330 is now defunct.
The Voyager is a crap aircraft compared to the KC10 - no Upper Deck Cargo Door so you can use it for errrrr....Cargo in times of need - like now instead of Stoddy having to do it!
Air Tanker are a private operation contracted by the MoD. They can have their aircraft sprayed Sky Blue with Pink Spots for all I care.
Certain tinge of remoaner on this web-site....


.

Why do you keep mentioning Brexit, and why do you keep talking utter nonsense?

And yes, I’m in ‘a branch of Aviation’.

[sycamore]

Even the French a/c has got their `Flag` on the fuselage wrong ....

[esa-aardvark]

Or something like this..






https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x210/american_aircraft_in_royal_air_force_service_1939_1945_conso lidated_liberator_ch18793_7abecb7b6bca4e1f301027be2981b140d3 842dbd.jpg

Something like this

[Jetset 88]

Hmm.... Never having been a fan of the dull grey colour but acceding to the policy of tone-down colouring for ‘camouflage’ reasons, I groan seeing the Voyager /Boris paint-job story.
As if he hasn’t spent enough of my tax money in the last couple of months and I would have thought that this would never have got past the Government bean-counters. “Just add it on to the Covid-19 £££s billions we now owe.” I suppose.
They should have thought of this when they obtained the aircraft but I suppose Marshall’s will do well out of it and keep a few more employed for a short while... I wonder what garish mixture of red, white and blue BJ will come up with. Hope it doesn’t look as scruffy as his haircut.
I suppose he could ask Nigel Farage for a suitable slogan to paint down the side.
“ BJ’s Brexit Express – Made by Airbus (in the EU)”


Cynic that I am, ......but I bet it will look very nice.

[Davef68]

I've never understood the British reluctance to having a proper VIP aircraft for the Head of Govt/Head of State.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

The aircraft has been on checks at Cambridge.
it was probably due a repaint on completion anyway. I doubt painting it other than grey overall will cost an additional £0.9 million. I suspect someone with an agenda is agitating the fertiliser !!!

[Coltishall. loved it]

Have some respect for our country, get the thing painted. We have just bankrupt ourselves with furlough. A few quid no big deal

[medod]

Well my problem is that it’s either going to look

a) like any other red white and blue a/c e.g. the French, the Canadians

b) s***.

I did like the 2012 Hawk. But that would look ludicrous on an A330.

[ETOPS]

Let's try again....


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1400x985/master_730496161fa1384f9be7c676dc3317f6ba41587c.jpg

[NutLoose]

Even the French a/c has got their `Flag` on the fuselage wrong ....

It differs on both sides and is based on the flag hanging on a pole at the front so is correct, the Union Jack when on an aircraft is similar, on the right side looking at it, it appear to be in reverse, ie thick white band top right as opposed to the normal top left corner, but is correct as seen on a forward flag pole... if that makes sense. The one on the current Royal helicopter is wrong.... cringe, but that’s just laziness and piss poor management.

[DaveReidUK]

It differs on both sides and is based on the flag hanging on a pole at the front so is correct, the Union Jack when on an aircraft is similar, on the right side looking at it, it appear to be in reverse, ie thick white band top right as opposed to the normal top left corner, but is correct as seen on a forward flag pole...

No, the poster's comment on the French President's A330 was referring to the fact that it doesn't observe the flagpole convention. The Tricolore on both sides of the aircraft is painted with the blue on the left, instead of one side being the usual mirror image of the other.

[SLXOwft]

I don't suppose it will be nice and subtle like the Czech A319 below. I am expecting a union flag fin like Hawk T1s XX172 and XX238 had in the mid/late '80s(?):8. Boris might like the 2010 4FTS 50th anniversary scheme :eek:.

In similar vein to Davef68, every time I go to LFPG the VIP aircraft remind me I live in a country where policy is often driven by envy - why one of the top ten economies in the world can't justify it is beyond me. :ugh:

What they should have done originally was lease one of the surge aircraft.

Can a tanker professional enlighten me on the reasoning for using a KC3 as opposed to a KC2? Low demand for the centre hose?

On the grey front I believe the Belgian VVIP leased A321 is also grey.

I am impressed that no Marshalls' employee has been disgruntled enough to leak the scheme.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x702/20114_1276524713_7d975c0da50cb6ef16a84cc594baea19a9347752.jp g
This file is licensed by Pedro Aragão under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license.

[Dannyboy39]

Whoever at Marshalls got the government to spend £900k on a repaint is hopefully getting a big bonus. It is probably 6-7x more than if should be costing hence why I’m not convinced that it’s the full story. If they’re throwing in a C check in to, it is probably justified but that is an obscene amount of money if it isn’t.

[NutLoose]

Dave..

Gotcha, I never noticed that (on iPad ), I was looking at the fin, correct, it’s wrong like Bettys chopper.

[DaveReidUK]

NZ Prime Ministers both past and present......

And not even a widebody, at that. Have they no shame ?

[Union Jack]

Even the French a/c has got their `Flag` on the fuselage wrong ....
Well spotted, Sycamore! I've just checked that the French flag on the port side is shown correctly in terms of the aircraft's forward motion, but it would sadly appear that no one was greatly concerned about the flag looking aesthetically correct on the starboard side.

In the same vein, on arrival in Deauvile on one of many forays across the Channel, I discovered that we had regrettably not brought our French courtesy flag, so we hoisted Flag Tango at the crosstrees instead - and no one else noticed the reversal of colours for the next ten days.......😱

Jack

[Union Jack]

NZ Prime Ministers both past and present......
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/707x400/nz_pm__fd2475b28cb6c946d04a0e5c2bae9c69d0c4ec00.jpg
Grateful for confirmation which one you think is the present NZ Prime Minister.....😁

Jack

[Nil by mouth]

Grey paintwork would have suited PM John Major...

[CargoOne]

Commercial repainting of a330 including strip and paint for simple to medium detailed livery (no Disney, no pokemons, no shine with multiple layers) is 200-250k USD. Design is 25-50k max but lots of outfits would design it for free in exchange to right to refer it publicly. Where 900k GBP is coming from?

[MarvinTPA]

It's a 'dead cat', isn't it?

If it wasn't costing this much or the stated cost included other items, then HMG could have announced that. They haven't. Whether or not the story is accurate, this forum alone demonstrates that it will get some talking about 'Boris-bashers' and 'Remoaners' and others clearly taking an opposite view...whilst more important matters get side-lined.

If foreign governments and potential investors (the latter tending to be hard-headed) are impressed by a flashy colour-scheme and flock to do business with us on the back of it, then I couldn't help but be delighted. If not, then we'll have to export a lot more boomerangs to Australia to get the money back...and Voyager is little use for getting them there.

[Rhino power]

Commercial repainting of a330 including strip and paint for simple to medium detailed livery (no Disney, no pokemons, no shine with multiple layers) is 200-250k USD. Design is 25-50k max but lots of outfits would design it for free in exchange to right to refer it publicly. Where 900k GBP is coming from?

Maybe the £900K figure is coming from the, 'I/we have an agenda...' section of the media (don't they all though?), or, the £900K is correct, but, it also involves additional/necessary work which has been conveniently left out of the equation?

-RP

[NutLoose]

I could understand the price if it was also having a check, secure comms, defence fit, avionics suite update or the like.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Let's try again....


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1400x985/master_730496161fa1384f9be7c676dc3317f6ba41587c.jpg

I believe this is photo shopped.....It is going to be delivered in September

[DaveReidUK]

I believe this is photo shopped.....It is going to be delivered in September

Yes, it's photoshopped, but the real thing is now flying in those colours:

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/06/08/this-is-how-vvip-air-india-1-jet-for-modi-kovind-looks-like.html

[DCThumb]

Here's an idea, not new in some respects. Just about every nation state has a national airline, most are functionally insolvent but I digress... Why not have said national carriers occasionally, as needs be, lease a couple of their best aircraft, decked out in feather boas and/or whatever outrageous livery desired, to VIPS? Could be a marketing scheme for aforementioned state vanity project, whilst that airliner is not carrying about our moral and intellectually superior elected/appointed leaders. Imagine: "Fly the very airplane Justin the magnificent coiffed his bouffant in! Free Chrystia Freeland™ bobblehead figurine included! (for a small monthly fee charged to your credit card, no rights included...)"

Save a ton of dough and give flight crews a well paid reason to get out of bed that day.

It’s a great theory, and it’s exactly what was done when the VC10 VIP role disappeared and 32 Sqn lost most of its assets.

A few years later a National Audit Office Report stated that more was being spent leasing aircraft from the likes of BA than it would cost to own and run the aircraft. This was the origins of Blair Force One, much as I hate to defend Blair, when on the back of this he proposed to purchase VIP aircraft again. This was abandoned following exactly the same type of press hysteria as is now appearing over this paint scheme.

‘According to an RAF source’ it will be ‘diplomatic and appropriate’ - I’m quite looking forward to a variation of the old VC10 scheme personally.

[MPN11]

It will be interesting to discover if this quasi-military aircraft carries the RAF roundel, or is presented as a civilian airframe.

[Nil by mouth]

And has deprived the Defence budget of c. £1m to satisfy the PM's vanity [or dislike of grey, to be pedantic].

MPN11, pi§§ed-off Tory.

Maybe a nonagenarian could raise the money?

[BEagle]

Well, I really don't understand all this whingeing....

A Voyager painted appropriately in national colours will be worthy VIP aircraft, although ideally there should be 2 as turning up in a grey jet would reflect badly - the DM journos would claim that "The RAF can't even manage to keep one aeroplane serviceable"...

As for the scheme, the very last thing I would wish to see would be some throwback to old Trucky Command Comet / VC10 schemes of the '60s. That would just promote an image of the UK being stuck in the past!

I hope that HM was asked for Her approval of the final design?

[Tengah Type]

BV # 61
The colour of large aircraft can be operationally important. The two Tristar K1 aircraft used in Op Granby were originally in the standard white livery flying towlines at 25,000ft not too far from the Iraqi border. They were visible from many miles away, unlike the VC10s in Hemp. When given a coat of pink paint (to become known as Pinky and Perky) they became very difficult to see, for which the crews were very grateful. Also on the ground at Riyadh, along with 100 odd large aircraft in grey or Hemp they were the most obviously visible.

Lost in the Tundra # 93
Most civilian airliners do not have Self Defence capabilities, unlike operational aircraft, or the secure comms required. It would cost a lot of money to have them fitted and authorised for each flight.

[deltahotel]

If I wanted some cosmetic work on my car - alloys tidying up, few scratches sorting, T cutting etc I’d probably do a bit of internet searching which would give figures, say £100-200. If I went to my normal dealer (called, eg Martials of Oxford) and they quoted £900 I might think of going elsewhere or saying ‘don’t be ridiculous, you’re having a laugh’.

Paint the thing by all means, make it look good, but pay a reasonable price.

[brakedwell]

I see the Daily Mail has come upwith this:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x423/29731714_8433631_image_a_38_1592429610526_97ed12a02e01f591c2 5f250ee94e185b685ae182.jpg

[BEagle]

Indeed, Tengah Type ! When the Pink Pigs turned up at KKIA, I compared the f. stop at 1/500th with a normal white TriStar. It was a whole stop - which IIRC meant that the pink ones reflected half the light of the white aircraft.

During ULAS times, one of our last student syllabus exercises was low level manoeuvring. If Brize was quiet, I would ask to route on the 'Charlie Delta' back to Abingdon via Brize at LL - which was usually OK'd. As we approached, I'd ask the student to count how many VC10s he/she could spot. They usually saw the trucky ones, but rarely the hemp tankers until I pointed them out. This was to show them that even at a sedate 120KIAS / 250 ft visual target acquisition was much more difficult if the target was camouflaged.

However, as BV infers, acquiring the target with the Mk1 eyeball is now a thing of the past - so probably less need for tone down paint schemes these days.

[Akrapovic]

Found a Union Flag liveried aircraft after a brief search . . . . plenty of these sat around, currently. . . .

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x350/ba_plane_679939_db4c7709ce57e7c17bcaa9e5af9f5633a9f5d250.jpg

[muppetofthenorth]

As for the scheme, the very last thing I would wish to see would be some throwback to old Trucky Command Comet / VC10 schemes of the '60s. That would just promote an image of the UK being stuck in the past!
The BA heritage liveries that have been used in the last year or so have been extremely popular, so that might not necessarily be the case.

We've got a national image of being a bit quaint and retro, why not lean into it?

[homonculus]

I gather there have been discussions with Norwegian to repaint the entire fleet of Voyagers and put the face of a different minister on each tail. This will be a cost saving on the Boris plane as much will be white, but Hancock is asking for his to also have the NHS rainbow.

[Bob Viking]

I’m not debating that colour can affect visual acquisition. I’m merely postulating that pretty much everyone has a radar (and other sensors) now. Remember Granby was 30 years ago. Not everyone was radar equipped then.

Anyway, I’m only partially serious and the benefits of easy peacetime visual acquisition are probably still outweighed by the benefits of camouflage. However, the scales are tipping.

BV

[Nil by mouth]

I would expect that the person running the UK government Mr. D. Cummings will have submitted a design?

[brakedwell]

I would expect that the person running the UK government Mr. D. Cummings will have submitted a design?


But he won't be paying for it!

[dakarman]

Heres a couple more suggestions to mull over.

How about a half and half paint scheme, port side colourful as required for 'showing off' and photo ops, then you ensure you always park with that side towards the cameras. Then the starboard side in camouflage. Then in a hostile environment you always keep the starboard side to the enemy.....

or

there are now plenty of flexible plastic displays being developed. You could coat the entire aircraft in these and change the paint scheme at the click of a mouse. Then it could be rented out or you could sell advertising space on it. You could even have adaptive camouflage for example displaying the ground below on the upper wings and the plane would practically vanish..

[dead_pan]

I see the Daily Mail has come upwith this:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x423/29731714_8433631_image_a_38_1592429610526_97ed12a02e01f591c2 5f250ee94e185b685ae182.jpg

Nah, still too boring and understated for my liking. How about we paint Churchill on one side of the fin and Victoria on the other?

[brakedwell]

Nah, still too boring and understated for my liking. How about we paint Churchill on one side of the fin and Victoria on the other?

How about Cecil Rhodes on either side of the fin.

[Flying Hi]

Nah, still too boring and understated for my liking. How about we paint Churchill on one side of the fin and Victoria on the other?
If thats a Go'er, get Jet2 to paint it. Betcha it'll be a quarter/third the cost.🤔

[Mooneyboy]

Can anyone clarify wether it’s
A) already painted in TC colours
B) it needed a repaint anyway

This has a big orientation on arguments wether it’s a waste of money or not.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Yes, it's photoshopped, but the real thing is now flying in those colours:

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/06/08/this-is-how-vvip-air-india-1-jet-for-modi-kovind-looks-like.html
Sadly also a photo shop as called out on Twitter a few days later.

[GeeRam]

I gather there have been discussions with Norwegian to repaint the entire fleet of Voyagers and put the face of a different minister on each tail. This will be a cost saving on the Boris plane as much will be white, but Hancock is asking for his to also have the NHS rainbow.

Someone has already come up with something on similar lines here.......:E

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1599x1078/50017133791_bfa6526557_h_11979a1db957a95042db2ba1bc21abc5fe3 842cf.jpg

[CAEBr]

Can anyone clarify wether it’s
A) already painted in TC colours
B) it needed a repaint anyway

This has a big orientation on arguments wether it’s a waste of money or not.

For (A) see my earlier post #87, its nothing to do with the ex TC jet.
As to (B) the condition of the current grey, based on the age and other jets suggests it 'probably' wasn't in need of an immediate repaint.

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks for clearing that up. My last two questions then:

C) How much is actually being repainted? Is it just a tail fin as I’ve heard some suggestions or is it a complete aircraft repaint in bright red as some papers have suggested.

D) What is the likely extra cost to its planned maintenance to add this extra paint livery?

[NutLoose]

the condition of the current grey, based on the age and other jets suggests it 'probably' wasn't in need of an immediate repaint.



Then the old VC10 scheme would be the best option, flat the top half down and spray it white, add a cheat line, the wings and all things down would remain as per before.

[Guest 112233]

Then the old VC10 scheme would be the best option, flat the top half down and spray it white, add a cheat line, the wings and all things down would remain as per before.

This aircraft has an operational purpose as a Tanker - Speaking as a total layman, the grey colour scheme may have camouflage benefits in the traditional sense and as a protection in a Beyond Visual Range scenario at the limits of detectability. Literally blurring the edge in a manner of words. Radar ablative characteristics are a separate matter. Its painted grey for a set of reasons associated with its primary function(s). Painting it for decorous reasons is just plain stupid. I echo the opinions of an earlier contributor here.

[Edit:If its the grey A330 that passed over my garage at about 500 AGL its was definitely grey ! all over]

CAT III

[racingrigger]

Get a life you lot! What leader arrives in a matt grey aircraft on international visits. We have looked like the poor relation too long and the cost is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Have you no pride in your country or nothing better to do than denigrate every decision made by the government - a bit of support would not go amiss right now.

[VX275]

Whatever the top coat looks like I take it the Voyager will still have its IR undercoat.

[Widger]

Notwithstanding vthe 'Why', I am a little shocked at the cost....Is someone adding a few GBPs to this and taking the p133 as it is 'outside of contract'? How much does an aircraft respray normally cost?

[Interested Passenger]

hopefully they will fit a zip line so Boris can depart the aircraft with the dignity we would expect of him.

[NutLoose]

They might be adding black and white recognition bars to the wings and fuselage for the 31st Jan celebrations.

[Martin the Martian]

Get a life you lot! What leader arrives in a matt grey aircraft on international visits. We have looked like the poor relation too long and the cost is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Have you no pride in your country or nothing better to do than denigrate every decision made by the government - a bit of support would not go amiss right now.

Actually the Voyager fleet is painted with a gloss finish. And the cost may be peanuts but it seems to be rather a lot of peanuts compared to how much a respray ought to cost.

[MPN11]

ISTR the costing included “design”. And of course anything fancy is going to need stick-on vinyl or spray templates. A bit more complex/expensive that just “mask the windows and spray the rest in grey”.

[DaveReidUK]

Sadly also a photo shop as called out on Twitter a few days later.

Can't find any evidence to support that.

So did the AAL dispatcher who's credited with the photo fake it himself, or has his identity been stolen by a Photoshopper ?

And are the hundreds of other photos of his on the Net fakes too ?

[cngaero]

Voyager looks good photo shopped in Air Support Command livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/evansaviography/11608974363/
A definite photoshop. The fin flash colours are the wrong way round, unless Boris intends to share it with the French Premier.

[Lomon]

My man on the inside reckons its the AirTanker leased Voyager to Thomas Cook - now defunct. So it wouldn't have been in grey if it were needed. Calm down remoaners.
Does your man on the inside also think they are stripping out the current VIP fit voyager that is painted grey (and was converted a few years ago at a cost of almost £10m) to put it all inside the ex TC branded jet?

Or do you think your man on the inside knows not what he is talking about?

[DaveReidUK]

A definite photoshop. The fin flash colours are the wrong way round, unless Boris intends to share it with the French Premier.

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise, given that it has only just been announced that it's going to be repainted.

[Davef68]

Wouldn't surprise me if it looked similar to this

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x800/raf_bae_146_ze700_02d74e77ff4ecf3f88b68ad905cea096a00b0aff.j pg

[Lilaccruiser]

Personally, I always think that we’re very hair shirt in this country about transport for our political elites. There was a period (after the demise of the VC10s as VIP transports in 2001 perhaps?) where our leaders were ferried around in any old aircraft chartered from any old airline. Gordon Brown went to the US on a Titan B757 and was greeted with full military honours. I’m hoping that the wonderful Gene Willson was at the controls, none better to ferry our PM around, but it was an odd to see the British going for a bit of chartered affordable luxury (VIP config with leather seats!) in the home of the superpower. And I would definitely have replaced HMY Britannia - the whole world loves and respects our queen, so why not give her the tools to do the job of representing us abroad that she does so well. I’m also glad we have our VIP Voyager.

But, how can I say this.... Based on our CV19 experience, there seems to be a lot of evidence that Johnson isn’t much good at the basics of his job of governing the country. Maybe he’ll get better, he’s new after all. But the new Voyager paint job has been so widely reported that it’s obviously a political stunt. That’s what politicians do. However, I’m sure people will just be asking why a government that has made so many basic administrative errors in recent months is wasting its time on trivia like this.

My prediction: when Johnson finally gaffes his way to his inevitable and fast approaching demise, his successor will blanch at the thought of pictures of him/her emerging from Boris’ red white and blue airborne folly de grandeur. The A330 will emerge from a “routine” trip to the painters in a lovely, forgettable, ignorable matt grey.

[dead_pan]

Doesn't look so bad if this is anywhere near the truth:

Http://twitter.com/evansaviography/status/1273582731591589895?s=19

[Lilaccruiser]

That’s breathtakingly tacky. Is the “United Kingdom” really gold? Maybe it’s to match the taps in Bozza’s new long haul bathroom suite.

[NutLoose]

Back ends good but everything fwd of the wing not so good, nor the little RAF logos and serial location, In fact downright tacky comes to mind... keep it simply always gives it a sense of style, business like and purpose.

it makes you think the arse end has followed Frances tasteful scheme and after that they threw it open to committee and they all chucked their ideas on it.... Gold United Kingdom, what were they thinking? As if the arse end doesn’t tell you that, t looks like a flying knocking shop.

Maggie would have needed a bigger hanky to cover up that mess.

[Tankertrashnav]

Younger son is a paint inspector and works in the world of superyachts. He has just flown to Hamburg for a project meeting in connection with the repaint of a 130-odd metre yacht. His printer went u/s before he flew out so he emailed me a couple of docs to print, which amounted to over 50 A4 pages of specifications for the job. The work is highly labour intensive, and at that level of expertise wages are high and labour costs are considerable. When I asked him how much the job was going to cost he said he wasn't sure, but not less than one million euros. Puts the £900k for the Voyager into perspective. Also that £900k is not lost to the economy. A lot of it goes to provide well paid work to skilled employees, boosting the local economy (presumably around Cambridge), and of that a fair amount is going to come straight back in the form of income tax, VAT on the paint etc.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Can't find any evidence to support that.

So did the AAL dispatcher who's credited with the photo fake it himself, or has his identity been stolen by a Photoshopper ?

And are the hundreds of other photos of his on the Net fakes too ?

The 2 Aircraft VT ALW & VT ALV have been parked at Forthworth for interior & other fit outs for the past 6 months. They last flew there in the AI livery from Chicago after scheduled passenger flights. ALW took to the air about a week ago probably for a test flight for the first time. This photoshopped picture has been doing the rounds for at least a month. They are also going to be operated by the Indian Air Force so I doubt the Reg would be the same.

[sycamore]

Don`t think it needs the `swoopy` blue line,should be more like the -146,unless that`s a nod to the Senior Service.....the `UK`could be done in `rainbow` colours,outlined in black......

[DaveReidUK]

The 2 Aircraft VT ALW & VT ALV have been parked at Forthworth for interior & other fit outs for the past 6 months. They last flew there in the AI livery from Chicago after scheduled passenger flights. ALW took to the air about a week ago probably for a test flight for the first time. This photoshopped picture has been doing the rounds for at least a month.

You are mistaken on several counts, I'm afraid.

It's true that ALW has been at Forth Worth Alliance - though not for "6 months", but for more than a year.

However it flew more than 2 months ago, on April 14 - not "about a week ago" - to San Bernardino. KSBD is the home ot AeroPro (https://aeropro.us/aircraft-painting/) who, amongst other activities, provide aircraft painting services to airlines and government operators (other paintshops are available :O).

ALW returned to KAFW 7 weeks later, on June 2, resplendent in its new Indian Government livery, and sporting a newly-acquired SATCOM antenna (AeroPro also specialise in SATCOM upgrades (https://aeropro.us/avionics-satcom-upgrades/)).

June 2 happens to be the date of those two widely-circulated photos by a respected and prolific aviation photographer - Andy Egloff - showing the aircraft approaching KAFW on its return flight. Egloff would become a laughing stock it it was shown that he was passing off fake photos as genuine.

Finally, a Google image search fails to find any instances of those two photos prior to June 2. If you can find a copy of either photo that was posted "at least a month" ago, I'd be interested to see it.

[Herod]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaysvfCXYAAXIci?format=jpg&name=small
There was me, thinking we were a "United Kingdom". That tail is totally wrong, with the St George's Cross several times the size of the others. I know it's the dominant centre of the Union Flag, but.....

[kiwibrit]

Ii would imagine the grey reqs little in the way of upkeep to keep looking smart, however a shiny scheme does.
I too have design some schemes in the past that are flying ;)
From my experience:The Belfasts had a high gloss paint finish. It was very easy to keep clean.

[brakedwell]

The Britannias had a good paint finish too!
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x670/seychelles_nairobi_bahrain__1bab3ae5a2c290b5de020bb6f88fd1ff 159a0014.jpeg

[tow1709]

TTN, a 130 m long yacht is roughly twice as long as an A330-300, and if we assume the beam and overall height are twice as much too (a very crude estimate I know), then we are talking four times the surface area. Also the yacht has complex exterior features and as you say yourself would be labour intensive to paint. So if 1m€ is ok for the yacht, then £900k seems a tad expensive for the aircraft.

[asdf1234]

TTN, a 130 m long yacht is roughly twice as long as an A330-300, and if we assume the beam and overall height are twice as much too (a very crude estimate I know), then we are talking four times the surface area. Also the yacht has complex exterior features and as you say yourself would be labour intensive to paint. So if 1m€ is ok for the yacht, then £900k seems a tad expensive for the aircraft.

I thought Lufthansa Tech had the contract for Voyager maintenance which presumably covers repaint? Could it be that the VIP unit was sent to Marshalls for some secret squirrel additions and that the price quoted in the press includes all work, but for obvious reasons only the paint job is publicly acknowledged?

[BEagle]

Whatever. But I do hope that the tacky little slopey-A RAF logo in front of the registration mark doesn't appear on the final scheme.

The swoopy blue vein looks hideous - good idea, but lousy design.

[NutLoose]

From my experience:The Belfasts had a high gloss paint finish. It was very easy to keep clean.

From my experience of doing Royals on the Tens. it was a 28 day prep for Betty with a reserve also done. wash, clean and wadpol, interior change, 1/2 life components changed. her wheels fitted, her carpets fitted, bog polished to a mirror finish. anything looking shabby repainted....... etc etc etc

[chaps1954]

Couple of things
The aircraft is probably due a repaint anyway, The pain that is used is very different from maritime, as it has to be able to cope with very cold and very hot temperatures, When Air Livery us ed to be at Manchester it used to
take about 10 to 15 days for a repaint including taking all the old off so doesn`t really cause a problem with colours and the Union Flag will maybe be stuck on

[Krystal n chips]

Given the aircraft will be used to convey Boris, and others who fancy a junket or two, surely to reflect this pax demographic and the state of the UK a fetching blend of ochre would be appropriate ? ……...this suggestion may not go down well with some of the aesthetic purists of course. .

[Spunky Monkey]

Perhaps they could add vinyl images across the top depicting the UKs historical relationships to the country the ambassador is visiting.
Such as the Battle of Rorke's Drift, the burning of the original White House, Penal Colony Transports, Agincourt.
Would make for better news headlines than tearing down monuments and blaming the Police for everything.

[Mr Mac]

KnC
Good to see you have returned. With regards to BJ new transport and the garish paintwork scheme above, I would say it show,s his personality rather than that of the UK,s. As for being different from the Grey scheme used by many other heads of state, I would observe that at least if flying into a more 3rd world country, it will make for easier identification and targeting by anyone with an AK47 to hand. Personally I am not sure flying around with a large Union flag on the tail (other than BA) is such a good idea in these times.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[Il Duce]

Is a Voyager a bit big for, say, short haul trips around Europe? Is there scope to use a (repurposed) Sentinel when 5 disband?

[Chiefttp]

The civilized world owes a huge debt to England. Be Proud and show the flag.

[NutLoose]

Is a Voyager a bit big for, say, short haul trips around Europe? Is there scope to use a (repurposed) Sentinel when 5 disband?


It would be cheaper to buy new than to repurpose those. they would be a nightmare to demod.

[Bergerie1]

KnC,

I may not always agree with you, but I am very glad to see you are back again. We need contrary views!!

[Fitter2]

The Times (which is happy to criticise every Government decision) view

Painting the PM’s plane is a sensible move, not a scandalJawad Iqbal
Friday June 19 2020, 12.01am, The TimesThe sheer pettiness involved in what sometimes passes for political controversy never ceases to amaze. The latest example is the synthetic outrage over the decision to spend £900,000 updating the military aircraft used by Boris Johnson to travel overseas on official business.

The grey RAF Voyager, also used by members of the royal family, is being repainted (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-spends-900-000-of-taxpayers-money-on-plane-brexit-paint-job-xhtctfpwf) in a Union Jack design of red, white and blue. Critics have been quick to brand it a vanity project and a waste of public funds. Sir Ed Davey, the acting Liberal Democrat leader, even compared it with the cost of drugs used to treat Covid-19 patients, writing on Twitter: “The drug dexamethasone, that can potentially save the lives of people with coronavirus, costs £5 per patient. Boris Johnson could have bought 180,000 doses of that but instead he’s painting a flag on a plane.” That’s a specious piece of political logic that would mean no public money ever being spent on anything other than drugs to treat the coronavirus.

The truth is that all aircraft require routine maintenance and repainting every few years. Refurbishing an existing aircraft is much cheaper than buying a new one, and it saves money being wasted on expensive charter flights for official business. Commercial airlines routinely repaint their aircraft and change their liveries as a way of promoting the company brand. Why should it be any different for UK plc? Do we really want our leaders or senior members of the royal family travelling in a plane that looks as if it’s on its last legs? Marketing Britain to the world is going to be crucial in the years ahead and there is a great deal to be said for “waving the flag abroad”.

It’s a point not lost on other world leaders who travel in branded and specially modified aircraft to promote their countries. President Macron of France, who visited Britain yesterday for crucial talks, has at his disposal several specially modified aircraft, including an Airbus. Germany’s Angela Merkel has a number of planes, all equipped with anti-missile defence technology, for official trips. President Trump has two planes under the call sign Air Force One, heavily modified Boeing 747-200Bs equipped with a secure communications centre, as well as offices and a medical suite.

Projecting a strong and confident image on the world stage is a vital part of every nation’s diplomatic armoury, so what exactly is wrong with spending a tiny fraction of our overall GDP on an updated official aircraft to help sell Britishness to the world, and in a colour other than grey? The sneering should stop.

[Union Jack]

The civilised world owes a huge debt to England the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Be Proud and show the flag.

Fixed that for you!

Jack

[SLXOwft]

Well, I really don't understand all this whingeing....

A Voyager painted appropriately in national colours will be worthy VIP aircraft, although ideally there should be 2 as turning up in a grey jet would reflect badly.

I hope that HM was asked for Her approval of the final design?

I hope so too but I don't think Boris would recognize subtle hints of regal displeasure.

My cynical mind wonders if the garish scheme is not partly a plan to stop HM and other senior royals exploiting first come first served (and causing manufactured outrage as in the May v PoW non-story). I hope she insists on Royal Air Force not United Kingdom. The design reminds me of a remaindered 2012 Team GB mountain bike helmet I bought for one of my children from Halfords. It should be repainted in a scheme that gives subtle understated reflection of UK identity.

In the current climate, the design might seem overly "colonialist" in certain commonwealth countries where politicians might not be above exploiting it. Especially inappropriate in HMQ's overseas realms which she or her representative visit in her capacity as the local head of state.

Also agree there need to be two, surely post C-19 there will be cheap civil A330s with business/1st layouts to be had for lease - true there will be additional costs for comms, defensive measures etc. avoiding the need to use another AirTanker Voyager. (I am assuming they didn't manage to get exclusive rights to VIP transport using A330s.) Not just for servicability but duplicate calls, I assumed post Brexit HMG will be making lots of marketing trips for "Global Britain" - if the original conversion saved substantially on charters surely that makes sense.

[PICKS135]

Whilst everyone is sitting moaning about 'BJ1'. What bad news is being passed out quietly ?? Or am I just a suspicious beggar ??

[MPN11]

That’s breathtakingly tacky. Is the “United Kingdom” really gold? Maybe it’s to match the taps in Bozza’s new long haul bathroom suite.
I have just shown the purported scheme to the OH (216 Adj in Comet days). She said little other than “OMG” and “Tacky”.

It does NOT look like a National Leader’s aircraft, it looks like thousands of other airliners. It lacks that long-disused word ... DIGNITY.

[Mr Mac]

SLXOwft
When we were a UK based company we had the misfortune to be on a number of British trade missions to far flung parts, with ministers and indeed PM,s, and I can honestly say I can not remember getting any significant business, or making any further contacts through being on them. Indeed given the behaviour of some delegates and members of govt in foreign parts it was better to distance yourself from the whole entourage, as they proved to be a significant embarrassment. Personally I have always done my own spade work to secure work world wide, and I would not need a Union Flag on a brightly coloured ex RAF 330 with the usual hangers onboard to do it.
Similarly as now based in Germany, I do not expect to be flying round in Mrs Merkel,s tired old Grey 340 which does break down a bit I am told. However I am interested in EU grants and or loans which can be used to further our business world wide but I can access those through my keyboard,s !
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[Capt H Peacock]

There is a significant fraction of this country who hate it with a vengeance, despise all the trappings of statehood and heritage, and would gladly see us run by some other foreign power than accede to the legitimate democratically expressed will of its people. These people hated Boris before he was born, in fact they hate the very idea of a Boris. They would prefer him to cycle to international conferences in sack cloth and ashes followed by a chariot full of Grauniad readers flailing him with chains and thorns.

Speaking for myself, I actually would like to see Her Majesty and the Prime Minister travelling to state occasions in an aircraft appropriately liveried in the flag of this country, affording them the dignity and respect which they deserve. The previous VIP aircraft from Northolt had a perfectly respectable design.

[MAN777]

I think the German Gov aircraft is now a shiny brand new A350😄

[MPN11]

I think the German Gov aircraft is now a shiny brand new A350😄
... in what colour scheme? A jolly Black/Red/Gold swoosh all over the tail and rear fuselage? 🤔

Wiki offers numerous examples ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_state_and_government

[SLXOwft]

I think the German Gov aircraft is now a shiny brand new A350😄

Yes, first of three at an estimated cost of EUR1.2bn. Apparently it has a "transitional cabin" and will be upgraded to the full spec when the other two have been delivered. The headline on a story at the time of the order was "German government orders three Airbus a350-900 to prevent VIP delays".

They are also to be used for Medevac and troop transport. They are also in the process of receiving 3 Bombadier Global 6000s for government use. (They have also ordered another 3 BG6000s as Sigint platforms having cancelled an order for 4 MQ-4C Tritons)

First German government A350 arrives for outfitting in Hamburg (https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transport/first-german-government-a350-arrives-for-outfitting-in-hamburg/138278.article)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/780x474/69891_luftwaffea3502_834952_6cfafe79aebdbcb31c4f30b64fa84204 f68d489d.jpg
Source: Airbus via FlightGlobal

[Mr Mac]

There is a significant fraction of this country who hate it with a vengeance, despise all the trappings of statehood and heritage, and would gladly see us run by some other foreign power than accede to the legitimate democratically expressed will of its people. These people hated Boris before he was born, in fact they hate the very idea of a Boris. They would prefer him to cycle to international conferences in sack cloth and ashes followed by a chariot full of Grauniad readers flailing him with chains and thorns.

Speaking for myself, I actually would like to see Her Majesty and the Prime Minister travelling to state occasions in an aircraft appropriately liveried in the flag of this country, affording them the dignity and respect which they deserve. The previous VIP aircraft from Northolt had a perfectly respectable design.
Captain H Peacock
I think the timing of the change could have been better planned, and I think a jingoistic attitude may not be the way to go, and flying in on a plane emblazoned with the Union flag which carry,s some, shall we say unfortunate baggage in some parts of the world may not be helpful.
Oh and by the way I am Sunday Times reader not Guardian, so I assume that is directed at somebody else.
Man777
Thanks for info on new German State A/C. I will look out for it on my travel's out and about in Germany/ Europe/ World . Though currently the one I see most on my travel's, has been a certain Russian tycoons who used to own a UK football club I believe.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[a_ross84]

I've never understood the British reluctance to having a proper VIP aircraft for the Head of Govt/Head of State.


Becuase unlike a country I won't name, our prime minister doesn't need to use the jet to go golfing every other weekend.

[Asturias56]

Lee Kwan Yew was happy to fly SQ all the time

[Harley Quinn]

How about having all the flags of former colonies and dependencies incorporated into a nice old transport command cheat line, alphabetical from front to rear :E?

Mind you, that may put the USA a long way back, near the Windward Islands:ok:

[Herod]

How about having all the flags of former colonies and dependencies incorporated into a nice old transport command cheat line, alphabetical from front to rear https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif?

Mind you, that may put the USA a long way back, near the Windward Islandshttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

RIGHT ON!!. My gosh, that would upset the Donald. Might even spoil his third term.

[Mr Mac]

Asturias56
Best advert for country and airline.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

[Dannyboy39]

Better not tell Joe Public how much it costs for each engine to go to shop...

[chopper2004]

Saw it from back garden on approach to EGsC to be dolled up by Marshalls for our esteemed leader.

cheers


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x638/123106ad_3280_4005_b7de_02e3f3f613dd_0ce0e0df2e5688d9dd0c364 09c7d14817748c504.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/0208c0b6_8b9f_47f9_830d_269e382eac27_07f0712078fe97954e22d0c 36fd64df66c067475.jpeg

[robin]

From the Guardian

Experts argue that by gradually repurposing the jet as a British flagship, Johnson and the prime ministers immediately before him are in effect gaining control of what is a $240m modified Airbus A330M on the cheap, with the true costs paid by the Ministry of Defence via the PFI deal.

“No 10 should make that argument and be upfront about the cost. Instead this looks like they’re trying to get it through the back door with a dubious claim that this aircraft is still primarily a tanker,” Netherwood said.

[PAXboy]

There is nothing wrong with a VIP fleet. The problem is this being done through the back door. Yes, it is all public money but this has been done behind closed doors. A cheesey 'look how great britain we are' paint job will not be well received by (I suggest) the majority at home and certainly not those abroad. We have been upsetting the rest of the world for 400 years - why stop now? :(

[Just a spotter]

I suppose this is what you get when The Telegraph reading “Let’s have a new royal yacht Britannia” set meets the pseudo-trumpian “I’ll paint the damn plane the way I want it” ego.

JAS

[brakedwell]

I will be surprised if we will be able to afford to pay for the full Airbus contract much longer.

[Cat Techie]

Back ends good but everything fwd of the wing not so good, nor the little RAF logos and serial location, In fact downright tacky comes to mind... keep it simply always gives it a sense of style, business like and purpose.

it makes you think the arse end has followed Frances tasteful scheme and after that they threw it open to committee and they all chucked their ideas on it.... Gold United Kingdom, what were they thinking? As if the arse end doesn’t tell you that, t looks like a flying knocking shop.

Maggie would have needed a bigger hanky to cover up that mess.
It is bloody awful!

[asdf1234]

It is bloody awful!
The aircraft has not been rolled out of the hangar yet. Why is everyone getting so hot under the collar when none of you know what the final paint job is, or indeed will look like?
​
Calm down dear! (Credits to Winner and Cameron).

[DaveReidUK]

Why is everyone getting so hot under the collar when none of you know what the final paint job is, or indeed will look like?

I think you could have point - we might find out that the paint job is great, but looks horrible. :O

[NRU74]

KnC,

I may not always agree with you, but I am very glad to see you are back again. We need contrary views!!

Can I second that !

[oldchina]

The fin looks very 1970s. Boris a c ?

https://www.baesystems.com/en/download-en/heritageimage/webImage/20160223111842/1434555081026.jpg

[Cat Techie]

The aircraft has not been rolled out of the hangar yet. Why is everyone getting so hot under the collar when none of you know what the final paint job is, or indeed will look like?
​
Calm down dear! (Credits to Winner and Cameron).
Time will tell

[rab-k]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/image_6f7a8e95677b820d049750f8f4c91b9d48ef0a2c.jpeg

[NutLoose]

A quickie modification showing how that scheme could be toned down, the crown would have the UK consisting of Great Britain and Northern Island on it like on the passport, by the door would mean it would be on show when photos are taken.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50026392973_80290befeb_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jdEkJM)

[kkbuk]

The civilized world owes a huge debt to England. Be Proud and show the flag.
I think that you should use the term 'United Kingdom' really. The flag to which you refer is the flag of the United Kingdom and not England. Many people, especially foreigners, use 'England' as a term for the British Isles, thus offending the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots.

[Flying Hi]

thus offending the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots.

Never takes a lot.

[Union Jack]

I think that you should use the term 'United Kingdom' really. The flag to which you refer is the flag of the United Kingdom and not England. Many people, especially foreigners, use 'England' as a term for the British Isles, thus offending the Welsh, the Irish and the Scots.
In which case, you will be pleased to discover a measure of support at Post No 199....:D

Jack

[Diverskii]

Tail is just about bearable, everything forward of that is gobsmackingly tacky... Hardly surprising but it's not at all as statesman like as the French and German equivalents.

No surprise they plan to have a "Generic Meaningless Swoosh Thing (https://www.salon.com/2011/09/30/airline_culture_crossover/)" on it.

NutLoose's adaptation is a big improvement... Lets hope Boris sees it and U-turns...

[scotbill]

Although we now view Concorde through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, let us not forget the furore about the waste of the taxpayers' £750 million.
Yet that money bought the country and the airline priceless prestige and publicity all round the world.
I remember being at Twickenham's rugby sevens in the 80s when Concorde appeared on finals for LHR.
The whole stadium burst into a version of the BA anthem of the time.

That 's what an image can do for you. British ambassadors of the past reported that invitations to the royal yacht could boost British trade by billions.

[beardy]

How many here who defend the re-painting of an aircraft at extra cost are persuaded to admire any other country who have done just that. Do you think that French or Indian prestige is greater because of a decorated aircraft or do they just look vain?

[ORAC]

The aircraft, ZZ336, was already planned and contracted for work including a respray. Tanked and transports have operated in other than camouflage over the years.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x800/image_4ea667f6e91d2cd9e11bfdddd774a5586135f59e.jpeg

[NutLoose]

Although we now view Concorde through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, let us not forget the furore about the waste of the taxpayers' £750 million.
Yet that money bought the country and the airline priceless prestige and publicity all round the world.
I remember being at Twickenham's rugby sevens in the 80s when Concorde appeared on finals for LHR.
The whole stadium burst into a version of the BA anthem of the time.

That 's what an image can do for you. British ambassadors of the past reported that invitations to the royal yacht could boost British trade by billions.

I totally agree, it’s all about projecting an image around the world, and it’s about time the U.K. did it, pomp, ceremony and memorials are something we are world beaters at..... I just hope it doesn’t look as bad as the scheme shown, we’d have to buy Boris some matching leopard skin suitcases to complete the dell boy look.

[charliegolf]

Never takes a lot.

Does from my Welsh viewpoint. Keep working to fund my 'gold-plated' pension and:ok: you can call me what you like.

CG

Agreed about the United Kingdom remarks tho'.

[c52]

When I lived abroad, England and hence the UK was seen by parts of the press as a sort of Ruritania, a place significant for pomp and pageantry.

[difflock]

At £900k that's a service check and paint job, was the aircraft due a respray. When I was on VC10's we kept a some aircraft in Gloss paint and the others in dull gray, the gloss one's had a basic colour paint scheme and did trouping flights, we had a bunch of first class seat we put in when they did VIP operations. Aircraft need re-painting regularly, also was this one of the ex TC aircraft, in an odd colour scheme. Need facts, most of this chat seems to be based on rumor.

[Flying Hi]

When I lived abroad, England and hence the UK was seen by parts of the press as a sort of Ruritania, a place significant for pomp and pageantry.
I'm thinking more like Duchy of Grand Fenwick 😀

[Tallbloke]

Is there a danger of glare when refueling if it has a glossy finish?

[reds & greens]

Is there a danger of glare when refueling if it has a glossy finish?
Possibly, but not too much if you're groundcrew... 😉

[BEagle]

Is there a danger of glare when refueling if it has a glossy finish?

It wasn't a problem when jousting against a white TriStar even in the sunny skies of Gulf War One.

[Easy Street]

I think the point being missed by the likes of Andy Netherwood complaining that the scheme would make the aircraft unusable for tasks such as daylight landings into Basra or Bastion is that this Government (and most likely its next few successors) has zero interest in getting involved in a new campaign of the type where:

1) Troop movements are needed into an airfield subject to a visually-laid threat;
2) The number and intensity of movements is such that one aircraft couldn’t be excluded from the Voyager plot;
3) The duration of the airlift was too long for exceptions to (2) to be manageable with the substantial additional mitigation of ‘night movements only’ for this one aircraft;

by which I mean that it has no interest in getting tangled up in another TELIC or HERRICK and thus can afford to take decisions such as this. As for air refuelling, well, something has gone *very* wrong if mitigations equivalent to points 2 and 3 above have not been possible, the DCA screen has failed, and an unfortunate tanker crew is forced to rely on a low vis paint scheme to keep themselves safe from enemy fighters. At that point, the infinitesimal extra mitigation it might provide is so close to worthless that you barely need to predict any benefit to justify the alternate scheme.

Justin Bronk has correctly identified the more contentious argument as being one of cost attribution, although really the paint scheme doesn’t change the substance: just brings it into sharper relief! It’s been observed that the PFI effectively protects Voyager from salami-slicing, which reduces MOD’s room for manoeuvre in the upcoming review, so if this paint scheme helps MOD develop an argument to extract a greater share of the PFI costs from other departments then maybe it will prove to have been a wise investment from that point of view alone. Who am I kidding, though... the PFI is a whacking great amount to quote towards the 2% GDP target so attributing it all to ‘Defence’ remains more likely.

[Fitter2]

Flying Hi:
I'm thinking more like Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Don't forget they defeated the USA :cool:

[fizz57]

Although we now view Concorde through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia, let us not forget the furore about the waste of the taxpayers' £750 million.
Yet that money bought the country and the airline priceless prestige and publicity all round the world.
I remember being at Twickenham's rugby sevens in the 80s when Concorde appeared on finals for LHR.
The whole stadium burst into a version of the BA anthem of the time.

That 's what an image can do for you. British ambassadors of the past reported that invitations to the royal yacht could boost British trade by billions.

Concorde - or a 15-inch gun battleship - gives you something to respect when you see the red, white and blue. But a glorified airliner with a tail-boom? Signs of the times, I suppose.

[Asturias56]

Is there a danger of glare when refueling if it has a glossy finish?


Thats why they wear cool shades.............. :cool:

[DaveReidUK]

also was this one of the ex TC aircraft, in an odd colour scheme

Discussed earlier in the thread.

No.

[WE992]

I don't know what all the fuss is about the MOD core fleet is 9 aircraft including the civil registered one in Ait Tanker titles which is used on the South Atlantic schedule yet since 336 was "modified" into a VIP aircraft there are now 10 in full time RAF use. Personally I think the VIP aircraft should be in a more appropriate colour than grey as long as it is done with style and not tacky like the modern RAF branding used next to the aircraft doors.

[c52]

BA used to paint the tops their aircraft grey and many considered it very smart. By the same token there's nothing wrong with a grey Voyager.

(At the time, KLM said they painted the top half of their aircraft blue to match the sky - I fancied that BA chose grey to match the skies over London.)

[oldmansquipper]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/638x426/b603d79e_357e_4795_96e0_6c11ef83250c_f8a1b59555a1ceadff3133a 37a21f5a90b656fe7.jpeg
Borrowed from another military site... “PM’s jet respray nears completion”

[Out Of Trim]

Concorde - or a 15-inch gun battleship - gives you something to respect when you see the red, white and blue. But a glorified airliner with a tail-boom? Signs of the times, I suppose.

No tail-boom on ours... Yet! :sad: